How to remove pool drain cover 9 feet under water to check for a clogged pipe?
SF Man
pump runs dry every time I switch from both the spa & pool or just the spa,
to the pool only.
The drain cover has screws on top - but - it's 9 feet under (due to the
nature of the self-cleaning pool).
I long lost (20 years ago) my PADI scuba diving certification card (I
wonder if we can get a new one sent?) and I don't have tanks (although I
could buy them on Craigslist) and a regulator ...
So, I wonder, sans scuba equipment, how do you guy normally service your
deep drains to see what's clogging them up?
DD_BobK
SF Man-
http://tinyurl.com/3rtnumd
or
free dive repeatedly
or
drain the pool
or
sell the place and move to the city
btw....in nearly 35 years, never experienced a block main drain in any
pools I was responsible for.
They're pretty hard to block permanently with the types of debris
typically seen in a pool.
Can you run water from the garden hose from the filter area by
plumbing the hose into the system?
cheers
Bob
Evan
Which costs less ?
Obtaining a scuba tank so you can work underwater ?
- or -
Draining the pool so you can work on it sans-scuba gear and refilling
it ?
D'uh...
~~ Evan
SF Man
> Can you run water from the garden hose from the filter area by
> plumbing the hose into the system?
This type of filter isn't designed to be backwashed (it's a cartridge
filter) but it does have a drain valve.
I will try to shove a hose into the drain valve (about 1.5 inch diameter
pipe abover the filter pump) and see if that works - but - it's a good 90
feet away from the pool main drain ... so ... I'm not sure how that would
work.
But, it's a good idea to try!
SF Man
> Which costs less ?
> Obtaining a scuba tank so you can work underwater ?
> Draining the pool so you can work on it sans-scuba gear and refilling
> it ?
> D'uh...
Hi Evan,
Thanks for the advice. It's my fault for not mentioning that draining the
pool isn't feasible.
If you look at some of my other threads, the well only pumps about 400
gallons of water a day. The pool is 38K gallons. That would take almost 100
days to fill the pool again - and that's assuming no other water goes
anywhere but to the pool. Can't be done.
The only way to refill a drained pool out here is to truck the water in.
So, a used set of scuba tanks costs far far far less than refilling the
pool would.
It's my fault for not mentioning that draining the pool doesn't appear to
be an option (unless I can rent 38K gallon storage tanks for a few weeks).
Caesar Romano
wrote Re How to remove pool drain cover 9 feet under water to check
for a clogged pipe?:
>So, I wonder, sans scuba equipment, how do you guy normally service your
>deep drains to see what's clogging them up?
Try something like this with a different hose
<http://www.lowes.com/pd_103500-43657-FP209599DI_4294795218_4294937087_?productId=1205535&Ns=p_product_price|0&pl=1¤tURL=%2Fpl_Air%2BCompressors_4294795218_4294937087_%3FNs%3Dp_product_price|0&facetInfo=>
--
Work is the curse of the drinking class.
HeyBub
Take a largish bucket and cut a window in it. Bolt (and seal) a flexible
plexiglass pane to the window. Install an air nozzle to the top. Add
sufficient weights and connect your new diving bell to an air compressor.
When I was a lad, we did this to scrub the pool's wall at the Boy's Club.
There was no shortage of volunteers to take a turn with a stiff brush, very
few of which drowned.
Pete C.
SF Man wrote:
>
> My pool drain is 9 feet underwater - and - I think it's clogged because the
> pump runs dry every time I switch from both the spa & pool or just the spa,
> to the pool only.
>
> The drain cover has screws on top - but - it's 9 feet under (due to the
> nature of the self-cleaning pool).
>
> I long lost (20 years ago) my PADI scuba diving certification card (I
> wonder if we can get a new one sent?)
Yes.
> and I don't have tanks (although I
> could buy them on Craigslist) and a regulator ...
Just rent gear from a dive shop after you get your replacement c card.
>
> So, I wonder, sans scuba equipment, how do you guy normally service your
> deep drains to see what's clogging them up?
Drain the pool, or get your SCUBA gear on.
jamesgangnc
I would think you can get a few screws out with repeated dives to the
bottom.
Clogged main drains are not that uncommon. Sometimes it's a collapsed
pipe though. Then you live without.
But most pool circulation systems also use skimmers for return water.
Do you not have skimmers?
Kurt Ullman
SF Man <lavo...@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
> On Tue, 30 Aug 2011 23:03:00 -0700 (PDT), Evan wrote:
>
> > Which costs less ?
> > Obtaining a scuba tank so you can work underwater ?
> > Draining the pool so you can work on it sans-scuba gear and refilling
> > it ?
> > D'uh...
>
>
> Hi Evan,
>
> Thanks for the advice. It's my fault for not mentioning that draining the
> pool isn't feasible.
>
>
Another concern with this would be type of liner. If it is vinyl and
you empty it, you run a real distinct risk of floating the liner with
all sorts of nasty side effects.
--
People thought cybersex was a safe alternative,
until patients started presenting with sexually
acquired carpal tunnel syndrome.-Howard Berkowitz
Bob F
Use a diaphragm compressor connected to the hose to the second stage of a single
hose diving regulator. Diaphragm compressor to avoid inhaling oil fumes. I got a
couple free regulators from a diving shop back in the 60's to do this. They had
bad 1st stages, so they gave them to me, with my promise that I didn't know
where I got them. With 45' of hose on them, my friend and I could stay
underwater a long time.
DD_BobK
Read carefully.......
consider a temporary (& reversible) re-plumbing effort to ALLOW you
to PRESSURIZE the pipe TO the main drain line.
I'm not suggesting shoving the hose down the pipe, let the pressurized
water do the work.
DO NOT USE COMPRESSED AIR UNLESS YOU HAVE COPPER PIPING.
Think outside the box (but not on the far side of the moon).
Start looking for a realtor.
k...@att.bizzzzzzzzzzzz
It's probably not clogged but broken. You're likely sucking air.
When I had a pool, I did patches without any tanks. The only issue was
buoyancy. At the deep end, I had SWMBO hold me down with the sweep. Trusting,
huh. ;-) ...though something clogging the bottom drain is *very* unlikely.
It has a cover, no?
k...@att.bizzzzzzzzzzzz
>In article <j3klgj$rh7$1...@speranza.aioe.org>,
> SF Man <lavo...@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
>
>> On Tue, 30 Aug 2011 23:03:00 -0700 (PDT), Evan wrote:
>>
>> > Which costs less ?
>> > Obtaining a scuba tank so you can work underwater ?
>> > Draining the pool so you can work on it sans-scuba gear and refilling
>> > it ?
>> > D'uh...
>>
>>
>> Hi Evan,
>>
>> Thanks for the advice. It's my fault for not mentioning that draining the
>> pool isn't feasible.
>>
>>
> Another concern with this would be type of liner. If it is vinyl and
>you empty it, you run a real distinct risk of floating the liner with
>all sorts of nasty side effects.
Or, even worse, a shrunken liner.
mkir...@rochester.rr.com
> So, a used set of scuba tanks costs far far far less than refilling the
> pool would.
So would RENTING a set so you wouldn't have them cluttering up your
garage.
So would HIRING someone with the proper equipment to dive on the
drain.
So would HIRING a proper pool maintenance/repair firm to diagnose and
fix the problem without ever getting wet, instead of turning this
relatively simple job into the frickin' Poseidon Adventure...
Evan for President
Jon Danniken
Get a weight belt and hold your breath. You should be able to spend a
minute at a time under there right now, and given a little practice, maybe a
minute and a half or longer.
Jon
jamesgangnc
<k...@att.bizzzzzzzzzzzz> wrote:
Often when the bottom drain is clogged it's a collapsed pipe. Most
people learn to live without.
chaniarts
> My pool drain is 9 feet underwater - and - I think it's clogged because the
> to the pool only.
>
> The drain cover has screws on top - but - it's 9 feet under (due to the
> nature of the self-cleaning pool).
>
> I long lost (20 years ago) my PADI scuba diving certification card (I
> wonder if we can get a new one sent?) and I don't have tanks (although I
> could buy them on Craigslist) and a regulator ...
>
> So, I wonder, sans scuba equipment, how do you guy normally service your
> deep drains to see what's clogging them up?
drain jet
http://www.poolplaza.com/pool-school/pool_pump_trouble_clogged_intake.shtml
SMS
> to the pool only.
The pump should be sucking water through the skimmer too. If it's
running dry then the problem is between the skimmer and the pump.
Normally the drain pipe runs back up to the skimmer as well.
> The drain cover has screws on top - but - it's 9 feet under (due to the
> nature of the self-cleaning pool).
>
> I long lost (20 years ago) my PADI scuba diving certification card (I
> wonder if we can get a new one sent?) and I don't have tanks (although I
> could buy them on Craigslist) and a regulator ...
>
> So, I wonder, sans scuba equipment, how do you guy normally service your
> deep drains to see what's clogging them up?
When I had our pool resurfaced and the plumbing replaced they told me
that the pipe from the drain was not working. I forget if there was a
leaky pipe or a clogged pipe. There was really no way to fix it. So now
the only outflow is through the skimmer. It works fine. One thing I did
do is switch to a pool cleaner that does not connect to the suction side
of the pump. I use a robotic cleaner, the Dolphin. Since no dirt can
down the drain anymore, I wanted a cleaner that did depend on some dirt
being swirled up and flushed down the drain.
You really just have to drain the pool to get down there. When they
resurfaced my pool and I refilled it I thought it was leaking through
the drain and they sent down a scuba diver to seal it off better.
k...@att.bizzzzzzzzzzzz
SF Man
> Another concern with this would be type of liner. If it is vinyl and
> you empty it, you run a real distinct risk of floating the liner with
> all sorts of nasty side effects.
It's a gunnite in-ground built-in pool.
I don't think it has a liner, per se.
SF Man
> Try something like this with a different hose
> <http://www.lowes.com/?productId=1205535&Ns=p_product_price
I already have a compressor so there is plenty of hose.
Are you suggesting sending compressed air through the drain?
I could (with scuba) get down there and stay there.
What pressure do you use and what fittings to get into a 18-inch wide drain
opening from under water?
SF Man
> Drain the pool, or get your SCUBA gear on.
Draining will take 100 days to fill from the hose (and that's w/o any water
used in the house otherwise) so it's not an option.
> Just rent gear from a dive shop after you get your replacement c card.
That is a great idea. I called the local dive shop who said if I show them
ID, they will look up my PADI status online ... and I don't even 'need' the
card!
SF Man
> I would think you can get a few screws out with repeated dives to the
> bottom.
I agree. But ... it's tedious and, since I don't know what I'm looking for
per se, it's time consuming. I would rather just stay on the bottom for a
while (plus, it would be fun to get back into scuba gear since I haven't
dived in over 30 years after being an advanced PADI open water diver as a
college student).
> Clogged main drains are not that uncommon. Sometimes it's a collapsed
> pipe though. Then you live without.
I hope not. The pool had an inch thick of mud in it when I bought the house
(forclosure) so it easily 'could' be clogged.
> But most pool circulation systems also use skimmers for return water.
> Do you not have skimmers?
It's a looooong story. The short story is my skimmers don't work the way
most people's skimmers do.
1. I have a filtration system that has a single 18" suction port at the
deepest end of the pool (8 or 9 feet) (plus a safety port on the side
wall). That filtration system has nothing to do with the skimmers.
2. Then, there is a built-in vacuum-less cleaning system, which takes water
from the two skimmers and simply squirts it back into the pool, unfiltered
(other than baskets at the skimmers and pump) in order to push debris to
the deep end of the pool (which has a cliff-like dropoff in order to trap
the debris on the bottom of the pool).
So, the skimmers have nothing to do with the filtering, unfortunately.
SF Man
> It's probably not clogged but broken. You're likely sucking air.
I 'do' notice slight air bubbles coming out of the water going back into
the pool.
What does a pool drain actually 'look' like (cut away view)?
What does it do? I 'thought' it was just a pipe ... with a 18-inch cover?
Is it more than that?
> I had SWMBO hold me down with the sweep.
SWMBO ?
> something clogging the bottom drain is *very* unlikely.
> It has a cover, no?
Yes. It has a cover. And a filter basket on the pool deck. But what else
could make a pool pump not suck water when I move the valve to POOL ONLY
versus SPA ONLY?
That is, the water flows perfectly when I'm in spa only mode (it empties
the spa if I'd let it); but the water flows badly when I'm in pool only
mode?
What else can it be other than a clog or a broken pipe (which I doubt 'cuz
that would be ten feet underground)?
SF Man
> Often when the bottom drain is clogged it's a collapsed pipe. Most
> people learn to live without.
Wow. I have no idea how a pipe would collapse. They're all UNDER the pool.
But if it is, I agree, I'd live without.
Belatedly, I realized I can limp along with the inlet to the filtration
pump set at half way between spa only and pool only ... so that there is
half suction in both.
But it's sub optimal.
I'm heading to the dive shop to see if I can rent some tanks for a few
weeks 'till I figure this out.
Evan
Wow...
Clearly you don't know enough about pools or water to really be
maintaining
one on your own without proper supervision...
Hire a company to take care of it for you...
If the drain line in the bottom of the pool has become compromised and
you really really need for it to be fixed because of some sort of
psychological
defect being in play here, then the pool will have to be drained for
that to
happen... They aren't going to tunnel in from a shaft dug next to the
pool
to do repairs...
You are thinking on consumer grade time tables... A gasoline operated
pump would have that 38,000 gallon pool empty in a little more than an
hour or two...
With a 50,000 gallon tanker truck full of water, the pool will be
filled as
fast as the pump in the tank truck can pump the water out of the hose,
not 100 days...
~~ Evan
Evan
Dude...
You sound like a noob... You often have to purchase water to fill a
pool
at a premium rate and have it trucked in via a tanker truck...
Maybe you should try to hold your breath while you check the pool
drain...
~~ Evan
SF Man
>>Often when the bottom drain is clogged it's a collapsed pipe. Most
>>people learn to live without.
>
> Exactly my point.
Well, two things aren't working (that I know of).
1. The suction from the pool drain (as opposed to the spa drain) is meager.
2. The two squirt pipes surrounding the pool drain are not operating (one
bubbles air and a teeny tiny bit of water; the other is no operating).
From my understanding of how the pool works, these two squirters are tied
to the filtration system (as opposed to the other dozen squirters which are
tied to the cleaning system).
I 'think' it's a clog because the pool was filled with an inch of mud when
I bought the place. I think the guys who cleaned it didn't open up the
drains to look what was inside.
DGDevin
"Evan" wrote in message
news:1b53fa87-2b8b-499c...@a13g2000yqd.googlegroups.com...
> Which costs less ?
> Obtaining a scuba tank so you can work underwater ?
> - or -
> Draining the pool so you can work on it sans-scuba gear and refilling
> it ?
Sometimes draining a pool can have unpleasant consequences, like the pool
rising out of the ground if there is enough ground water to make that
happen.
SF Man
> maybe a
> minute and a half or longer.
Since I have sleep apnea, I can actually hold my breath a very long time,
maybe two minutes or longer on the first dive.
But, this is going to take scores of dives.
So, by the thirtieth dive, I don't know if I can hold my breath for longer
than a half minute or so.
Scuba seems the way to go. I've since found out that you don't need a card
to rent tanks for a few weeks. They can look up your dive card status.
So, I'm going to go with scuba (renting or buying since this will take
weeks of elapsed time since I don't know what I'm doing).
Now the problem is to ask people for advice if they've ever opened a drain.
I know you can suck your bowels down there if you're not careful.
Any advice on to the best way to approach opening a drain?
DGDevin
wrote in message
news:9539d4a1-f9fe-4ac0...@k15g2000yqd.googlegroups.com...
On Aug 31, 2:47 am, SF Man <lavoc...@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
>> So, a used set of scuba tanks costs far far far less than refilling the
>> pool would.
> So would RENTING a set so you wouldn't have them cluttering up your
> garage.
He might need a current dive card to do that, dive shops tend to be picky to
avoid being sued.
> So would HIRING a proper pool maintenance/repair firm to diagnose and
> fix the problem without ever getting wet,
That would be my inclination. It's nice to save money doing it yourself,
but it's important to know when it makes more sense to call a pro.
SF Man
> drain jet
> http://www.poolplaza.com/pool-school/pool_pump_trouble_clogged_intake.shtml
Interesting. That web page gave us NEW IDEAS!
Since the skimmers are not part of the filtration system, I can't use the
first half of that web page's advice ... but ... the next part makes sense:
"The easiest way to remove a clog is to use a drain jet to force water
against the clog to remove it. The direction of the flow of water should be
opposite to the normal flow."
Basically, they put a garden hose drain jet inside the pump basket! I would
never have thought about going from the pump basket! I was going to go from
the drain on the bottom of the pool!
The drain basket, while being about 90 feet away from the pool drain, is at
least very accessible!
I might even be able to try this method on the pool deck, right above the
drain (but in air!) where the debris cannister and mesh bag sit!
This is a GREAT idea as I can access the lines from topside!
Worst case, the co2 gun they speak of (150 psi) might work also (I'll start
looking to see where I can rent a c02 gun. I have a co2 tank for making
soda so I have half the equipment already).
SF Man
> The pump should be sucking water through the skimmer too. If it's
> running dry then the problem is between the skimmer and the pump.
> Normally the drain pipe runs back up to the skimmer as well.
This is not a normal pool. It's a self-cleaning pool (no vacuum).
So, the skimmers are unfiltered (except for baskets). The water for the
skimmers starts at the skimmers, goes through a basket, then goes to the
2.2 horsepower cleaner pump basket, and then back to the pool via a dozen
squirters built into the bottom of the pool. There is a set of automatic
'water valves' which rotate the squirters so that, over an 8 hour period,
every inch of the pool is sprayed by the skimmer water.
But, the skimmers have nothing to do with the filtration system.
The filtration system starts at the bottom of the pool (and spa) and then
goes to the 2.2 horsepower pump and then to the filter and then back to the
pool.
THAT system is the one which has low water volume from the deep-end drain
but good volume from the spa drain. So, I suspect a problem in the deep-end
drain.
As a slight complication, there are two squirters dedicated to the deep end
drain (to channel the final bit of debris directly to the deep end drain)
which are also not working.
So, three things are bad:
1. The deep end drain seems about half of what it should be (compared to
the spa drain)
2. The two deep-end squirters which are tied to the filtration system are
not working.
SF Man
> Maybe you should try to hold your breath while you check the pool
> drain...
I did that already. Many times.
I go down and can hold my breath for a couple of minutes (I have sleep
apnea so it's rather easy to hold my breath).
The problem is that it takes dozens of dives to remove the cover and
inspect things.
I was looking for a simpler way.
One poster suggested using a garden hose on the filtration pump basket
inlet (shoving water backward through the 90 feet of pipe to the other end
of the pool). That might work.
Another idea is to shove that garden-hose drain thing into the topside
debris cannister on the pool deck, just above the main drain. That may work
also to blow the clog backward (I'd likely remove the drain cover for that
to let the clog come out).
A third option is to buy or rent tanks for a few weeks and just go down,
with weights, and spend the twenty or thirty minutes down there to figure
out what is going on.
But, going down a dozen to three dozen times holding my breath seems like
the hardest thing of all ... doesn't it?
SF Man
> Sometimes draining a pool can have unpleasant consequences, like the pool
> rising out of the ground if there is enough ground water to make that
> happen.
We haven't had a drop of rain out here since about May ... and we won't get
another drop 'till about December ... so that's not likely (in the winter,
when it pours, then that may be a problem).
SF Man
> Clearly you don't know enough about pools or water to really be
> maintaining one on your own without proper supervision...
Hi Evan,
I'm sorry again for not being clear. I never said I knew anything about
pools. I never owned a pool before. In fact, I never even wanted a pool. I
simply bought a house at forclosure that had a pool filled with mud (and
fish).
For about $400, a team cleaned it out and left. Then I filled it and now
the drain isn't working right.
Of course I can hire someone to fix it but I don't have a job and the money
is tight (big mortgage and huuuuuge taxes). The house was practically free
but the maintenance is what is difficult.
So, the only way I can keep the house is to do all my own maintenance (I've
already learned how to do roofing tiles, how to cut down large oak trees,
how to clean the three heater blowers, how to plug the solar heater, etc.).
I thought that's what this newsgroup is all about.
Sorry for misleading you. I repeat, I don't know anything about pools. But,
I can learn just as I learned how to fix my car which has never been to a
mechanic and which is now 15 years old.
It just takes time (which is the one thing I have plenty of).
Thanks for understanding and helping out.
JimT
I've heard of that happening. I've been warned to never completely drain
my pool but with this drought I doubt that would be a problem this year.
I'm planing on draining my pool this winter to do repairs on the tiles
and plaster. It will be a first for me. In an area like FL draining your
pool could be a disaster. Central TX would probably not be a problem but
I don't know for sure. Best to ask a pro. There are a few people here
that give good advice on pools . Better than the pool store at least.
SF Man
> pump would have that 38,000 gallon pool empty in a little more than an
> hour or two...
Wow. Twenty thousand gallons an hour! 300 gallons a minute. 5 gallons a
second. That's fast!
> With a 50,000 gallon tanker truck full of water, the pool will be
> filled
If I have to, I will drain the pool. But, I was hoping to try to figure out
what the problem is BEFORE draining it.
In fact, if it's drained, then I can't even run the pump anymore. So, how
does one TEST a pool drain which is now empty?
SF Man
> FL draining your
> pool could be a disaster. Central TX would probably not be a problem
This is northern California. The water table is loooooow right now. The
well runs dry, for example, 48 times a day (it shuts off for a half hour,
runs for a handful of minutes, then shuts off again - all due to low water
levels. And that's about 400 feet deep).
So, I don't think 'that' is my problem! :)
JimT
Have you taken the valve apart? It sounds like a leak to me. For some
reason it's losing it's prime and sucking air. I doubt it's the drain
because it should just pull from the skimmers. Try blocking the drain
and pull only from the skimmers. Sorry it this has already been
suggested. I didn't read all the responses. How old is the pump?
chaniarts
you can probably rent a snuba machine, and you don't need certification.
JimT
Sorry to hear that. We're having a water crisis here in TX. My
father-in-law's well runs dry too.
SMS
> On Wed, 31 Aug 2011 04:53:27 -0700 (PDT), jamesgangnc wrote:
>
>> I would think you can get a few screws out with repeated dives to the
>> bottom.
>
> I agree. But ... it's tedious and, since I don't know what I'm looking for
> per se, it's time consuming. I would rather just stay on the bottom for a
> while (plus, it would be fun to get back into scuba gear since I haven't
> dived in over 30 years after being an advanced PADI open water diver as a
> college student).
>
>
>> Clogged main drains are not that uncommon. Sometimes it's a collapsed
>> pipe though. Then you live without.
>
> I hope not. The pool had an inch thick of mud in it when I bought the house
> (forclosure) so it easily 'could' be clogged.
If the mud flowed down into the pipe and clogged it it all depends how
far down the pipe the mud goes as to whether or not you can dislodge
enough of it to get the water flowing. Draining the pool then using a
hose to break through the mud blockage might be your only hope, even if
it takes 100 days to refill the pool.
Bob F
How big are the holes in the bottom drain? Perhaps you could probe into it with
a length of hose (garden, maybe 1/2" drip hose, or even something smaller, as
needed to fit) attached to the garden hose for water flow to clean out internal
mud. Once it is opened up, the pump volume would perhaps clean out the
remainder. You could even do this from the surface by running the hose through a
slightly larger 10' length of PVC pipe as a guide/probe.
JimT
Oh yeah. How old is the impeller and housing? May have cracks that are
sucking enough air to keep it from priming the pump. If your spa is much
closer than the pool it's maybe able to prime the pump but can't build
the pressure to pull from the pool.
SF Man
> Have you taken the valve apart? It sounds like a leak to me.
Hmmnmm. I'm not sure which 'valve' you're talking about.
About twenty or thirty feet from the pool is all the equipment. There are
about a dozen valves there. They are compton valves and jandy valves. Lots
of them. They control, for example, whether I suck water from or to the spa
or pool.
> I doubt it's the drain
> because it should just pull from the skimmers.
My pool is different. It's a self-cleaning pool. So, the skimmers are
unfiltered. The skimmers are just used to skim big stuff that can be caught
in the baskets. Nothing else. The water from the skimmers goes right back
into the pool to operating the dozen or so cleaning jets.
> How old is the pump?
The pump is about 10 years old but I replaced the 2.2 horsepower motor only
a couple of months ago.
Bob F
> On Wed, 31 Aug 2011 10:35:12 -0500, k...@att.bizzzzzzzzzzzz wrote:
>
>> It's probably not clogged but broken. You're likely sucking air.
>
> I 'do' notice slight air bubbles coming out of the water going back
> into the pool.
>
> What does a pool drain actually 'look' like (cut away view)?
>
> What does it do? I 'thought' it was just a pipe ... with a 18-inch
> cover?
>
> Is it more than that?
>
>> I had SWMBO hold me down with the sweep.
>
> SWMBO ?
She Who Must Be Obeyed - Wife
>
>> something clogging the bottom drain is *very* unlikely.
>> It has a cover, no?
>
> Yes. It has a cover. And a filter basket on the pool deck. But what
> else could make a pool pump not suck water when I move the valve to
> POOL ONLY versus SPA ONLY?
Bad valve?
>
> That is, the water flows perfectly when I'm in spa only mode (it
> empties the spa if I'd let it); but the water flows badly when I'm in
> pool only mode?
>
> What else can it be other than a clog or a broken pipe (which I doubt
> 'cuz that would be ten feet underground)?
There's always the plumbers snake, if the pipe is hard pipe, but I'd try the
water hose flush first. A garden hose with a blaster nozzle on the end has
cleared out drain pipes for me. They make smaller "drain cleaner" hoses that
attach to the garden hose for household plumbing problems.
I've also had good luck cleaning drains using just a garden hose stuck in the
drain, wrapped with a rag for a seal to pressurize the pipe and push out the
obstacle.
JimT
Yeah. I read that about your skimmers down below. Sorry you had to
repeat yourself. I'd like to see pictures. 10 years isn't really that
old but if it's exposed it may only take one freeze. Probably wouldn't
be a bad idea to have your housing looked at. My first suspicion would
be the pump/housing because debris should just pass trough. If you had a
problem before this with low pressure who knows? Maybe low preassure
allowed debris to build up? If it did, something sounds very unusual.
Pools are supposed to be designed to filter out debris. One dozen
valves? Humm. Lots of valves to suck air. What's a compton valve? Do, or
did you, have any leaks in the plumbing?
Oren
wrote:
>The pump is about 10 years old but I replaced the 2.2 horsepower motor only
>a couple of months ago.
When you replaced the motor, did you also replaced the impeller (&
parts) at the same time?
Was this pool in operation with an inch of mud on the bottom?
Guessing: The bottom pool drain cover has four stainless screws --
likely Phillips head. Yes turn the pump motor off while working on the
drain / cover... Do not drop the screws.
See if the drain cover has a brand name on it. Then you may find a
side / top view of the drain.
Evan
Yeah, apparently you have never seen the man-portable gasoline powered
pumps that are used to drain out basements after a serious flood...
If you really wanted to go thermonuclear on it, a fire pump (like the
ones
in a fire truck) can provide 500 to 750 gallons per minute quite
easily...
So, let's review what you have revealed so far --
-- You hired a company to clean out 1" of dirt and mud from the bottom
of the pool...
-- You then filled the pool with water which took you somewhere on the
order of ~100 days according to various replies you have made thus
far...
-- You never had the pool inspected by a proper pool company BEFORE
you filled it...
-- You have no idea whether or not the drain was functioning properly
BEFORE you filled the pool with water...
-- You are unemployed yet you got a house for nearly nothing, and yet
the maintenance of said home and its amenities costing any sort of
money to deal with is not optimal ?
Wow...
There are so many issues there I will just leave them to you to
deal with...
~~ Evan
Oren
<evan.ne...@earthlink.net> wrote:
>Wow...
>
>There are so many issues there I will just leave them to you to
>deal with...
The OP might just be an Accountant.
Asking about things we do not know. I won't lash him to a whipping
post for asking.
Pete C.
SF Man wrote:
>
> On Wed, 31 Aug 2011 11:52:49 -0700 (PDT), Evan wrote:
> > You are thinking on consumer grade time tables... A gasoline operated
> > pump would have that 38,000 gallon pool empty in a little more than an
> > hour or two...
>
> Wow. Twenty thousand gallons an hour! 300 gallons a minute. 5 gallons a
> second. That's fast!
I have a 3" 8HP pump that is rated at 385GPM, yes that's fast, and yes
you have to have a place you can discharge all that water that can
handle the flow rate.
>
> > With a 50,000 gallon tanker truck full of water, the pool will be
> > filled
>
> If I have to, I will drain the pool. But, I was hoping to try to figure out
> what the problem is BEFORE draining it.
I have no idea what a tanker of pool water costs, but renting some dive
gear - tank, reg, mask and weight belt - is probably cheaper and more
fun. No need for wetsuit, BC, snorkel or dive computer in a 9' pool. You
want to be over weighted anyway so you can work without moving yourself
around.
>
> In fact, if it's drained, then I can't even run the pump anymore. So, how
> does one TEST a pool drain which is now empty?
You would leave a foot or two of water in the pool.
Pete C.
Assuming the pool pipes are something like 2", bringing down a garden
hose with one of the basic jet nozzles on the end should allow you to
flush the mud out of the pipe as you push the hose further into the
drain. You will of course have zero visibility in short order, so first
hook a small guide rope from a drain screw up to the pool exit to make
exit and re-entry easier.
JimT
> On Wed, 31 Aug 2011 11:52:49 -0700 (PDT), Evan wrote:
>> Clearly you don't know enough about pools or water to really be
>> maintaining one on your own without proper supervision...
> Hi Evan,
>
> I'm sorry again for not being clear. I never said I knew anything about
> pools. I never owned a pool before. In fact, I never even wanted a pool. I
> simply bought a house at forclosure that had a pool filled with mud (and
> fish).
>
<heh> That would have been helpful info in the OP. Yeah you might have a
clogged drain. :-)
MarkK
> >
> > I'm sorry again for not being clear. I never said I knew anything about
> > pools. I never owned a pool before. In fact, I never even wanted a pool.
I
> > simply bought a house at forclosure that had a pool filled with mud (and
> > fish).
> >
>
If you go in the water to work on the drain while the pump is running, use
extreme CAUTION.
You can become trapped by the suction, people have been killed this way....
Have buddy there to look out for you and shut down the pump if you get
stuck...
Mark
willshak
> My pool drain is 9 feet underwater - and - I think it's clogged because the
> pump runs dry every time I switch from both the spa & pool or just the spa,
> to the pool only.
>
> The drain cover has screws on top - but - it's 9 feet under (due to the
> nature of the self-cleaning pool).
>
> I long lost (20 years ago) my PADI scuba diving certification card (I
> wonder if we can get a new one sent?) and I don't have tanks (although I
> could buy them on Craigslist) and a regulator ...
>
> So, I wonder, sans scuba equipment, how do you guy normally service your
> deep drains to see what's clogging them up?
Can you rig up a backwash to the drain, either by water or air?
Perhaps rerouting water from the pool pump or hooking up a shop vac and
blowing air into the drain pipe?
--
Bill
In Hamptonburgh, NY
In the original Orange County. Est. 1683
To email, remove the double zeroes after @
JIMMIE
> My pool drain is 9 feet underwater - and - I think it's clogged because the
> pump runs dry every time I switch from both the spa & pool or just the spa,
> to the pool only.
>
> The drain cover has screws on top - but - it's 9 feet under (due to the
> nature of the self-cleaning pool).
>
> I long lost (20 years ago) my PADI scuba diving certification card (I
> wonder if we can get a new one sent?) and I don't have tanks (although I
> could buy them on Craigslist) and a regulator ...
>
> So, I wonder, sans scuba equipment, how do you guy normally service your
> deep drains to see what's clogging them up?
I took a look at my pool and I dont think it would take more than an
hour to reconfigure my plumbing to backwash the drain. That said I
find it possible bit not likely you have a drain that clogged, more
likely the valve used to switch from spa to pool.
Jimmie
tra...@optonline.net
> >Wow...
>
> >There are so many issues there I will just leave them to you to
> >deal with...
>
> The OP might just be an Accountant.
>
> Asking about things we do not know. I won't lash him to a whipping
> post for asking.
Especially from Evan, who has proven to be a bit
of a village idiot in the past. The questions SF is asking
seem reasonable to me. Also, I've seen plenty of
"expert" pool companies screw things up royally too.
tra...@optonline.net
Somewhere along the way he mentioned that he doesn't
understand how a pipe could be collapsed. One key
issue is what pipe was used. Around here, NJ, they
usually use flex PVC because it's easier to work with.
Problem with that is that it can collapse if not backfilled
carefully or subjected to too much vacuum. Also, it's
often not possible to tell what they used. Pool here
uses flex PVC underground but transitions to regular
PVC prior to exiting the ground.
Not saying that's his problem, just one more thing to
consider. I'd proceed by rigging up something to
put either water or air down the suspect pipe,
keeping the pressure below 15 or 20PSI or so. I've
rigged up fittings from my air compressor to
pool lines. If he can't get access to do that
with what's there, cutting the PVC line at an
appropriate spot is no big deal. Also, they
have what are called "snap tees". Hard to
describe, but google is your friend. Basicly
it's a T that is made to snap onto an existing
pipe. You use regular PVC cement, snap it
on, then use a drill to make a hole in the
existing pipe. Could use that to get his
access point, connect water or air, close
whatever valve he has and then test.
tra...@optonline.net
> On Wed, 31 Aug 2011 04:53:27 -0700 (PDT), jamesgangnc wrote:
> > I would think you can get a few screws out with repeated dives to the
> > bottom.
>
> I agree. But ... it's tedious and, since I don't know what I'm looking for
> per se, it's time consuming. I would rather just stay on the bottom for a
> while (plus, it would be fun to get back into scuba gear since I haven't
> dived in over 30 years after being an advanced PADI open water diver as a
> college student).
>
> > Clogged main drains are not that uncommon. Sometimes it's a collapsed
> > pipe though. Then you live without.
>
> I hope not. The pool had an inch thick of mud in it when I bought the house
> (forclosure) so it easily 'could' be clogged.
>
> > Do you not have skimmers?
>
> It's a looooong story. The short story is my skimmers don't work the way
> most people's skimmers do.
> 1. I have a filtration system that has a single 18" suction port at the
> deepest end of the pool (8 or 9 feet) (plus a safety port on the side
> wall). That filtration system has nothing to do with the skimmers.
Are you saying that safety port is connected to the suction
line along with the bottom drain? That would be the way
I would think it should be because you don't want a single
suction point to prevent someone from getting sucked
onto the single suction point and drowning.
So, if that's the case, why would the pump run dry
because of the bottom drain being clogged? It
would have to be a clog affecting both the bottom
drain AND the side suction point, no?
As for proceeding, it sounds a lot easier to me to
do a test with water flowing from the pool pad via a garden
hose attachement or similar than it is to dive for
the bottom drain. You could also use compressed
air as long as you make sure you keep the pressure
low, eg 15psi or so.
>
> 2. Then, there is a built-in vacuum-less cleaning system, which takes water
> from the two skimmers and simply squirts it back into the pool, unfiltered
> (other than baskets at the skimmers and pump) in order to push debris to
> the deep end of the pool (which has a cliff-like dropoff in order to trap
> the debris on the bottom of the pool).
>
> So, the skimmers have nothing to do with the filtering, unfortunately.
bob haller
wrote:
>
> - Show quoted text -- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -
he could get a plumber to run a camera down the line to see exactly
whats wrong. depending on what the line is made of it might be
possible to snake it.
some problems can be endlessely discussed where it takes less time to
just go exploring......
Jules Richardson
> The problem is that it takes dozens of dives to remove the cover and
> inspect things.
>
> I was looking for a simpler way.
Make yourself a dry-dock using marine ply and the biggest pump you can
find? At the very least, it'll make for a good darwin award story if it
all goes wrong :-)
cheers
Jules
SF Man
> Do, or
> did you, have any leaks in the plumbing?
Lots of leaks! Little dribbly things. But lots of them. I'll try to snap a
picture and post it for you to see.
> Lots of valves to suck air. What's a compton valve?
The name was "compool". Sorry.
It's a valve just like a Jandy valve only it's
made by Compool. I have three of them. They're all electrical. All my Jandy
valves are manual.
One compool valve controls the heating system, the other controls whether
water comes from the spa or pool to be filtered, and the third controls
whether the water goes to the spa or pool after being filtered.
The rest of the valves are all manual Jandy valves which control the
cleaning system, the spa, and the pool water.
NOTE: My news server limits the number of posts per day to 25 so this is
belatedly sent days later.
SF Man
> When you replaced the motor, did you also replaced the impeller (&
> parts) at the same time?
One impeller was worn almost see through by the sand and grit. When I
brought it to the repair shop, the guy there told me that's what happens
when sand is circulated. He said it wears clean through.
Unfortunately, I don't remember which pump that was for. I could take a
picture of it since I probably still have it outside next to the old pumps
(there are three pumps) in the growing parts collection box. :)
> Was this pool in operation with an inch of mud on the bottom?
I don't know - but - I suspect the answer is yes. I do know that most home
inspection guys run the equipment. How many people had the home inspection
on this house befor I bought it, I don't know (it was abandoned for over 2
years in the housing crisis).
I can only assume the answer to that question is, unfortunately, 'yes'.
> Guessing: The bottom pool drain cover has four stainless screws --
> likely Phillips head. Yes turn the pump motor off while working on the
> drain / cover... Do not drop the screws.
I was certainly planning on killing the power to the system before working
on it.
Yes. There are shiny steel phillips head screws that I can see from above.
> See if the drain cover has a brand name on it. Then you may find a
> side / top view of the drain.
That's a good point. I don't remember seeing a brand name, but I do know
the pool builder (Lifetime) and the pool cleaning system (Polaris). So, one
of them (probably the builder) would know the answer to that question. Most
of the equipment is Sta-Rite, by the way.
SF Man
> The OP might just be an Accountant.
How did you know!
BTW, I 'was' employed when I got the house (at a very good price). But I
was laid off a few months after that.
I'm living off my savings at the moment. Over 55 and over the hill.
It's not easy starting over (I was at the same company for decades).
Anyway, I thought the whole purpose of alt.home.repair is to ask advice and
I'm very glad you guys are volunteering the time to provide that advice.
My nntp news provider limits the number of messages a day so this is coming
a day after I posted it. Sorry about that.
SF Man
> You will of course have zero visibility in short order
This is a good warning!
Many a time I've done something, only to rue the lack of forethought when
something like a dust cloud occurs.
> so first
> hook a small guide rope from a drain screw up to the pool exit to make
> exit and re-entry easier.
I'm not sure what this means. Even if the pool turned black, I, personally,
would be safe as I'd just float upward.
So the guide rope must be for the hose?
Note: Sorry this is a day late. My nntp news provider limits posts to
something like 25 per day only and I've been answering everyone here (as a
courtesy and to respond and to appreciate their advice).
SF Man
> There's always the plumbers snake, if the pipe is hard pipe, but I'd try the
> water hose flush first.
The snake idea is interesting. I have a 100' long snake that just might
work. Thanks for that idea. I never tried it with PVC pipe ... so I would
need to be gentle as the thing runs off 120 volt power with a big rotating
drum.
SF Man
> renting some dive
> gear - tank, reg, mask and weight belt - is probably cheaper and more
> fun.
Renting makes sense but I like to own my (used) equipment. The advantage of
owning the equipment is that, over time, you end up finding other uses for
the stuff that you never imagined. At least that's what happens to me! :)
> No need for wetsuit, BC, snorkel or dive computer in a 9' pool. You
> want to be over weighted anyway so you can work without moving yourself
> around.
I agree. The pool is warm (82 to 85 degrees F). And only 9 feet deep. I do
need weight though. But that's no big deal.
When I was less fat, a few decades ago, I was 12% body fat (weighted under
water in the chair) and, interestingly, in my entire scuba class at
college, not one other person had ZERO lead weight in the pool. Everyone
else (women and men included), needed a few pounds, fully laden with scuba
gear, to be neutral. BTW, this was in the days of the horse collar so we
didn't use BCs.
Even in the ocean, I only used 4 pounds of lead, which was way less than
anyone else. Now, I float like an iceberg! So, the one thing I 'do' need is
the lead weight! :)
>> In fact, if it's drained, then I can't even run the pump anymore. So, how
>> does one TEST a pool drain which is now empty?
>
> You would leave a foot or two of water in the pool.
Interesting. I wonder what happens to the sidewall safety drain. I guess
you have to plug it becuase it's only about 3 feet below the surface.
BTW, I said the drain cover is 18 inches but that's too wide. It's about a
foot (or so) in diameter.
SF Man
> Around here, NJ, they
> usually use flex PVC
All the pipe I can "see" is 2" white PVC painted black. Schedule 40 I think
it's called.
I had to replace an elbow and that's what I used and it seemed to be the
same stuff (once I painted it black).
Nothing was flexible. It's all hard-plumbed pipe.
> I'd proceed by rigging up something to
> put either water or air down the suspect pipe,
> keeping the pressure below 15 or 20PSI or so.
This is the best idea, I think.
There is no way it's going to work if I start at the pool equipment (which
is about 5 feet or so BELOW the level of the pool) but I probably can rig
something at the debris cannister at the top deck of the pool and/or at the
actual drain itself in the bottom of the pool.
NOTE: You will see this, unfortunately, in a day, because the news server
I'm using limits messages, apparently, to 10 a day (and just responding to
you guys belatedly exceeded that so this is bouncing when I send it).
SF Man
> Are you saying that safety port is connected to the suction
> line along with the bottom drain?
I think that's the way it's built.
> So, if that's the case, why would the pump run dry
> because of the bottom drain being clogged? It
> would have to be a clog affecting both the bottom
> drain AND the side suction point, no?
Hmmm... that's a good point (which I had not thought of).
All I 'actually' know is that when I turn the compool electrical valve from
Spa or from Spa/Pool to just Pool, the pump loses its water in the pump
basket. It's sucking more air than water.
I 'thought' that meant the drain is clogged (especially since the two
squirters opposite it are not working).
But, maybe that just means there is a leak in the line?
Yikes. How would one find an air leak in when it's all buried underground
(mostly)?
SF Man
> Can you rig up a backwash to the drain, either by water or air?
I started doing this when I removed the pump motor (to get the two bearings
replaced, and the buna seal and the o-ring.
Then, I belatedly realized, the pump equipment is five feet (or so) BELOW
the pool!
So, there is NO WAY I'll be able to push water back against that force from
the pool pump equipment!
> Perhaps rerouting water from the pool pump or hooking up a shop vac and
> blowing air into the drain pipe?
I bought, for $25 from a local pool supply store, a white canvas 'bag' that
goes over the pool hose that expands and squirts water into a 2-inch pipe.
That tool can't be placed at the pool pump (see why above); but it can be
used (I think) at the drain itself at the bottom of the pool, or, better
yet, at the debris cannister topside on the pool deck, above the drain.
So that's what I'm going to try first!
Pete C.
SF Man wrote:
>
> On Wed, 31 Aug 2011 17:12:06 -0500, Pete C. wrote:
>
> > You will of course have zero visibility in short order
>
> This is a good warning!
>
> Many a time I've done something, only to rue the lack of forethought when
> something like a dust cloud occurs.
>
> > so first
> > hook a small guide rope from a drain screw up to the pool exit to make
> > exit and re-entry easier.
>
> I'm not sure what this means. Even if the pool turned black, I, personally,
> would be safe as I'd just float upward.
No floating. When you are diving to do work like this you dive over
weighted / without a BC so that you can push and pull on things without
moving yourself around.
>
> So the guide rope must be for the hose?
No, for you. So you can just stand up with a hand on the guide rope and
follow it walking towards the shallow end until you surface.
tra...@optonline.net
> On Thu, 1 Sep 2011 23:14:59 -0700 (PDT), trad...@optonline.net wrote:
> > Around here, NJ, they
> > usually use flex PVC
>
> All the pipe I can "see" is 2" white PVC painted black. Schedule 40 I think
> it's called.
>
> I had to replace an elbow and that's what I used and it seemed to be the
> same stuff (once I painted it black).
>
> Nothing was flexible. It's all hard-plumbed pipe.
Not that it really matters, because a leak is a
leak, but on the pool here no flexible PVC was
visible either. It was used only underground and
transitioned to regular PVC before coming out
of the ground. The only difference with flex
PVC you need to be aware of is that it doesn't
tolerate very much suction pressure without
collapsing. So be careful with your test
technique unless you know for sure you
don't have it.
>
> > I'd proceed by rigging up something to
> > put either water or air down the suspect pipe,
> > keeping the pressure below 15 or 20PSI or so.
>
> This is the best idea, I think.
>
> There is no way it's going to work if I start at the pool equipment (which
> is about 5 feet or so BELOW the level of the pool) but I probably can rig
> something at the debris cannister at the top deck of the pool and/or at the
> actual drain itself in the bottom of the pool.
Applying pressure at the pool pad, either water or
air is just as effective as applying it at the pool
end. You'd need a couple more PSI to handle the
5 ft rise, but that's it.
Don;t know the exact layout you have to work
with there. But my first thought would be to
apply air at the pool pad and see where bubbles
come out. If you have lots of air coming out
the bottom drain and no brown water, I'd say
it's unlikely a clog you're dealing with.
tra...@optonline.net
I found mine by plugging all of the pool
outlets on the line in question except for
one. I closed off the valve at the pool
pad on that line. On the remaining
pool side outlet, I screwed in a 2"
threaded PVC adaptor that transitioned
to an air chuck which I then connected
to my air compressor.
I suspected a leak and was actually
going to see if it would hold pressure.
But as I tried to pressurize it, while
I was still trying to stop air leaking
around the PVC adaptor, I heard
air and water boiling out of the ground
back near the pool pad.
If you do that, don't go over about
15 or 20psi. I'd also do it right after
the pump has been running for a
while. I think that way there is
probably going to be more water
around the leak area, so more
water to spot boiling out of the
ground.
I also see you mentioned sand
destroying the impeller. Where is
that coming from? Does a lot blow
into the pool from the environment?
If not, another sign of a leaking pipe
is sand, small pebbles, getting
sucked in. On mine, two main
symptoms of the suction side leak
were:
A - Those pebbles and sand showing
up in the strainer basket
B- Some constant air bubbles in the
strainer
C - A brown cloud that went by some
number of seconds after the pump
started each time. I actually used that
to determine the approximate location
of the suspected leak before finding it
with air. I shut the pump off, then put
some blue food coloring in one of the
skimmers. I turned the pump on and
timed how long it took for the blue to
show up at the pump strainer. I then
timed how long it takes for the brown
cloud to show up, giving an idea of
where the leak is relative to the total
length of pipe.
Oren
wrote:
>> Do, or
>> did you, have any leaks in the plumbing?
>
>Lots of leaks! Little dribbly things. But lots of them. I'll try to snap a
>picture and post it for you to see.
>
>> Lots of valves to suck air. What's a compton valve?
>
>The name was "compool". Sorry.
>
>It's a valve just like a Jandy valve only it's
>made by Compool. I have three of them. They're all electrical. All my Jandy
>valves are manual.
The valves (Jandy) have O-rings. Replace those O-rings that drip,
suck air or are damaged. Just a replacement part at a pool shop. Lube
the new rings when you install them. That should stop leaks.
Oren
wrote:
>On Wed, 31 Aug 2011 14:55:07 -0700, Oren wrote:
>> The OP might just be an Accountant.
>
>How did you know!
C.) You told us on the Internet, felling an Oak tree.
[Note: for your NNTP limitation. A text only sever with no binaries]
<http://www.eternal-september.org/>
Try it.
SF Man
> The valves (Jandy) have O-rings. Replace those O-rings that drip,
> suck air or are damaged. Just a replacement part at a pool shop. Lube
> the new rings when you install them. That should stop leaks.
Thanks for the advice.
I think, almost every valve is leaking.
So, I'll take one apart (it has large #3 phillips screws on top) and take a
look at these o-rings. I've never taken it apart before.
Luckily there are multiple pool-supply stores within a 20-mile radius, so,
I should be able to find parts in stock.
SF Man
>> So the guide rope must be for the hose?
>
> No, for you. So you can just stand up with a hand on the guide rope and
> follow it walking towards the shallow end until you surface.
Interesting.
I understand adding additional safety measures, and, I agree, a guide rope
is pretty trivial to hook up (so why not), but, still, I can't fathom an
'emergency' in a pool that has such a small deep end (the deep end is ONLY
there for the self-cleaning system to work).
By the way, if you haven't seen this type of pool, you'd have no idea how
STEEP the slope is at the deep end. It's nothing like a 'regular' pool.
It's about as steep as a steep ski slope. The whole point, apparently, is
to push debris toward the deep end where it can't get out.
I'd say it looks almost like, oh, about 30 degrees. Before I realized the
entire pool is designed around the cleaning system, I wondered who on earth
would make the 8 or 9 foot deep end so short (it's only about 4 feet wide
on the bottom of the deep end) and then have a slippery sloap that was
almost 45 degrees up to the shallow end.
It was too short for diving (you'd dive right past it) and the shallow
slope would kill anyone who tried as they'd it it head on, literally.
The whole pool made no sense (to me) until I talked to the company
(Lifetime Pools) that built it and to the company that designed the
cleaning system (http://www.paramountpoolproducts.com/products/pcc/).
Here they tout the pool is built to clean itself!
http://www.paramountpoolproducts.com/products/aapdf/PCC2000Flyer.pdf
In that two-page PDF, you can see that two jets are dedicated to the filter
system to push debris directly to the drain. It's 'that' part of the system
that I'm trying to debug.
tra...@optonline.net
Elsewhere in this thread you said that the pool pad
eqpt was 5ft below the pool. If that is true and the
piping does not rise above the level it leaves the
pool, then you should have water flowing at the
pool pad if you just open a fitting, like the pump
skimmer basket. And since I think you said the
suction from the pool is only the bottom drain
and a side fitting, by plugging up that side
fitting you could determine if the bottom drain
if flowing or not.
SF Man
> If you do that, don't go over about
> 15 or 20psi. I'd also do it right after
> the pump has been running for a
> while. I think that way there is
> probably going to be more water
> around the leak area, so more
> water to spot boiling out of the
> ground.
I'll try that as I'm 'sure' there are leaks (I put in 500 gallons every few
days ... and my well output is only about 400 gallons in a 24-hour day).
> I also see you mentioned sand
> destroying the impeller. Where is
> that coming from? Does a lot blow
> into the pool from the environment?
When I bought the forclosure, I was told they emptied the pool, but,
rainwater filled it (that's a LOT of rain!) and then the vector control
guys threw mosquitoe fish into it to keep the mosquitoes down.
It was greenish brown when I got it, and the water level was about a foot
below the deck. The fish were happily swimming about, eating the algae. The
bottom had mud on it everywhere, which we had cleaned up by a work crew.
Normally, no sand spills into the pool (it gets wind borne debris, but, not
much).
> If not, another sign of a leaking pipe
> is sand, small pebbles, getting
> sucked in.
Interesting. I 'do' see tiny pebbles in the filter basket and wondered how
they got there ...
> C - A brown cloud that went by some
> number of seconds after the pump
> started each time.
That I never see.
SF Man
> C.) You told us on the Internet, felling an Oak tree.
Oh, yeah. I forget how unforgetful the Internet is! :)
That oak is drying nicely now ... but man oh man ... anyone who splits
these things by hand deserves my respect!
> [Note: for your NNTP limitation. A text only sever with no binaries]
> <http://www.eternal-september.org/>
I'll try these nntp settings and see how that works out (thanks!).
Server name: news.eternal-september.org
Port : 119 (NNTP)
Port : 563 (encrypted connection NNTPS)
SF Man
> But my first thought would be to
> apply air at the pool pad and see where bubbles
> come out. If you have lots of air coming out
> the bottom drain and no brown water, I'd say
> it's unlikely a clog you're dealing with.
That's a great diagnostic technique ...
I will see what I can rig to go from the air nozzle to the 2 inch opening
at the bottom of the debris cannister first.
A diagram of the layout, roughly, is in this web page:
http://www.starbacks.ca/Eureka/1034/paramountpcc2000.html
SF Man
> you should have water flowing at the
> pool pad if you just open a fitting, like the pump
> skimmer basket.
Yes. If I forget to shut off the valves at the pool pad, then, whenever I
open any of the three pump filter baskets at the pad, water flows forever
until I realize it and shut off the valves.
> And since I think you said the
> suction from the pool is only the bottom drain
> and a side fitting, by plugging up that side
> fitting you could determine if the bottom drain
> if flowing or not.
You must be an engineer! That's an elegant diagnostic!
1. I would set the valves at the pool pad to only allow input water from
the pool (and not from the spa).
2. I would cover just the safety drain at the side of the deep end of the
pool (leaving the main drain at the bottom of the deep end of the pool
alone).
3. Then, if I open the pump filter basket, water should flow if the bottom
drain is unclogged.
Very elegant. I suspect a plastic bag should work on the side filter to
plug it up.
Oren
wrote:
>On Sun, 04 Sep 2011 12:20:04 -0700, Oren wrote:
Before you pull the valves apart. make a small "scratch" mark on the
valve body and the valve handle. Use the mark when you put them back
together -- an alignment.
SF Man
> Before you pull the valves apart. make a small "scratch" mark on the
> valve body and the valve handle. Use the mark when you put them back
> together -- an alignment.
That's the kind of stuff you learn from experience!
Thanks.
Oren
wrote:
>On Mon, 05 Sep 2011 11:10:12 -0700, Oren wrote:
Every trade has some little bit of technique.
I once performed a Side Walk Miracle. The man threw down his crutches,
hop skipped back to the medical staff. Suddenly he did not like his
choices: work or strict bed rest.
Phone called Denied! I could cure people :-'
tra...@optonline.net
> On Tue, 6 Sep 2011 12:30:44 -0700, SF Man <lavoc...@sbcglobal.net>
I also would not use a plastic bag to close off the
side suction port. Not effective and too easy for
it to wind up in the pipe. You can get a winterizing
plug which is essentially like a rubber stopper with
a wingnut on it that expands it. They are available
here in the NYC area at pool stores, but might not
be in CA, though they are useful for things other
than winterizing. You can also find them online.
DD_BobK
wrote:
> On Sep 1, 7:42 pm, JIMMIE <JIMMIEDEE...@YAHOO.COM> wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> > On Aug 31, 12:24 am, SF Man <lavoc...@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
>
> > > My pool drain is 9 feet underwater - and - I think it's clogged because the
> > > pump runs dry every time I switch from both the spa & pool or just the spa,
> > > to the pool only.
>
> > > The drain cover has screws on top - but - it's 9 feet under (due to the
> > > nature of the self-cleaning pool).
>
> > > I long lost (20 years ago) my PADI scuba diving certification card (I
> > > wonder if we can get a new one sent?) and I don't have tanks (although I
> > > could buy them on Craigslist) and a regulator ...
>
> > > So, I wonder, sans scuba equipment, how do you guy normally service your
> > > deep drains to see what's clogging them up?
>
> > I took a look at my pool and I dont think it would take more than an
> > hour to reconfigure my plumbing to backwash the drain. That said I
> > find it possible bit not likely you have a drain that clogged, more
> > likely the valve used to switch from spa to pool.
>
> > Jimmie
>
> Somewhere along the way he mentioned that he doesn't
> understand how a pipe could be collapsed. One key
> issue is what pipe was used. Around here, NJ, they
> usually use flex PVC because it's easier to work with.
> Problem with that is that it can collapse if not backfilled
> carefully or subjected to too much vacuum. Also, it's
> often not possible to tell what they used. Pool here
> uses flex PVC underground but transitions to regular
> PVC prior to exiting the ground.
>
> Not saying that's his problem, just one more thing to
> consider. I'd proceed by rigging up something to
> put either water or air down the suspect pipe,
> rigged up fittings from my air compressor to
> pool lines. If he can't get access to do that
> with what's there, cutting the PVC line at an
> appropriate spot is no big deal. Also, they
> have what are called "snap tees". Hard to
> describe, but google is your friend. Basicly
> it's a T that is made to snap onto an existing
> pipe. You use regular PVC cement, snap it
> on, then use a drill to make a hole in the
> existing pipe. Could use that to get his
> access point, connect water or air, close
> whatever valve he has and then test.
T4-
A snap tee's is a great idea in this situation.
I use them all the time to add sprinklers to existing lines or to "tap
off" existing lines.
Oren
<tra...@optonline.net> wrote:
>
>I also would not use a plastic bag to close off the
>side suction port. Not effective and too easy for
>it to wind up in the pipe. You can get a winterizing
>plug which is essentially like a rubber stopper with
>a wingnut on it that expands it. They are available
>here in the NYC area at pool stores, but might not
>be in CA, though they are useful for things other
>than winterizing. You can also find them online.
mention for a pool. I never close the pool in the desert :-/
HD sells a similar plug with a wingnut that you tighten...house
plumbing?
Once heard a pool guy suggest using a tennis ball on the skimmer pipe.
The plug sounds much safer -- preventing the bag being sucked into the
system.
Hope the OP tells us what he finds out.
bld...@outlook.com
>
> >My pool drain is 9 feet underwater - and - I think it's clogged because the
> >pump runs dry every time I switch from both the spa & pool or just the spa,
> >to the pool only.
> >
> >The drain cover has screws on top - but - it's 9 feet under (due to the
> >nature of the self-cleaning pool).
> >
> >I long lost (20 years ago) my PADI scuba diving certification card (I
> >wonder if we can get a new one sent?) and I don't have tanks (although I
> >could buy them on Craigslist) and a regulator ...
> >
> >So, I wonder, sans scuba equipment, how do you guy normally service your
> >deep drains to see what's clogging them up?
>
>
> When I had a pool, I did patches without any tanks. The only issue was
> buoyancy. At the deep end, I had SWMBO hold me down with the sweep. Trusting,
> huh. ;-) ...though something clogging the bottom drain is *very* unlikely.
> It has a cover, no?
She Who Must Be Obeyed? whaaaaaat?
Thomas
BR
You sound like a troll who lives in his mom's basement. Move on!
--
for full context, visit https://www.homeownershub.com/maintenance/how-to-remove-pool-drain-cover-9-feet-under-water-to-check-f-660364-.htm
BR
Reaching for something to lecture him about. Hear that? Your mom is calling.
It's time for bed. Move on!
BR
well said.