Replacing FP electrical panel in Condo (with pics)
Mikepier
electric panel that I want to replace due to the problems they are
known to have. There is a 50A main in the meter room, and the feed to
the existing panel is #6 wire. The panel supports 2- 220V a/c's (on
top of pic), 2- 20A breakers, 2-15A breakers, and one open slot for a
spare.
https://picasaweb.google.com/mikerock92/FPPanel?feat=directlink
Can someone tell me what panel I would need or maybe point me to a
link of a panel that would work for this application? Maybe made by
Murray, Cutler hammer, or GE?
By the way, one of the A/C's I am converting to 110V because one of
the A/C units is actually 110V and its like new, but the previous
owner never converted the plug to 110V, he just used an extension cord
to an adjacent outlet.
bud--
Someone (dpb?) wrote years ago that there were Eaton-Cutler Hammer guts
that would fit in an existing FPE box. I don't know if they still exist
or anything about them.
--
bud--
Mikepier
>
> - Show quoted text -
Yeah, I read about those, but I figure the walls are wide open now, so
why not just replace evreything new.
RBM
"Mikepier" <mike...@optonline.net> wrote in message
news:8c9517dc-ee27-4527...@f18g2000yqd.googlegroups.com...
* Unless you can relocate the cables or reframe the studs, you're gonna have
a problem. That panel was made before minimum wire bending requirements were
enacted, so any 8 circuit flush panel you'd get today will be wider.
Bottom line, you need an 8 circuit "flush" mount panel. I think Square D,
"QO" would be physically the smallest. After changing the one 240 volt
circuit to 120 volt, you will need 1 double pole breaker and 7 single pole
breakers, which will fill the panel, if you get full sized breakers. If you
have need of future circuits you can use duplex breakers or get a larger
panel
John Grabowski
*The panels that I usually see now can be top or bottom feed so you should
have plenty of slack for your hot wires. Your neutral my be short, but you
can splice onto that. Many panels are made to fit between two studs with
16" centers. It looks as though your spacing is less. My first thought is
to notch the existing studs, but that may not be possible for you. I know
years ago some manufacturers made narrow panels that had extra space at the
top and bottom. Here is a link to Square D's catalog. Page 7 and 8 lists
the load centers and page 19 has the dimensions. It looks as though they
have a 100 amp 8/16 panel that's narrow (QO816L100F or S). They show a
picture of the inside on page 7. You would probably have to go to a supply
house that is a Square D distributor to get one. Be sure to get a separate
ground bar.
http://static.schneider-electric.us/docs/Electrical%20Distribution/Load%20Centers/0110PL9401.pdf
Mikepier
>
> - Show quoted text -
Thanks for the Square D link. Yeah, that panel would work. But I
should mention the stud to the left can be moved/relocated and one of
the studs is just a filler, so I can go a little wider.
I just came back from HD, and they had Siemans and Eaton CH 8/16
boxes. The Eaton CH is a bit smaller than the Seimans, at 11"W X 13"
high. Lowes has Square D, but I think the biggest they have is 6/12.
I'll definately loook into the Square D though at a supply house. The
existing FPE panel
In terms of seperate ground bar, the existing wiring in the condo is
BX w/o ground, and the feed to the panel is BX and no ground. Do I
still need it? I see "ground straps" that come with the new panels,
should those be installed?
In terms of quality, any of them better or worse? I know Square D has
been around for ages. What about the others?
Mikepier
> existing FPE panel
Sorry meant to say the existing FPE panel is 8"X11.5"
RBM
** The steel cable is the ground for a BX cable. You do not use the ground
strap, as the ground, in this case being the steel of the cables as well as
the enclosure itself, must be isolated from the neutral bar. You don't need
to install a ground bar unless you plan to install some Romex cables or
other type of cable that used a ground wire. All of the mentioned panels are
fine. Just try to find one that best suits your needs
Stormin Mormon
FPE boxes. In this case, I'd think the OP would use
whatever his local electrician reccomends.
--
Christopher A. Young
Learn more about Jesus
www.lds.org
.
"bud--" <remove....@isp.com>
wrote in message news:im1du6$iuq$1...@speranza.aioe.org...
Stormin Mormon
pushing all those wires around. Still, it's a good idea to
upgrade to new, if at all possible.
--
Christopher A. Young
Learn more about Jesus
www.lds.org
.
"Mikepier" <mike...@optonline.net>
wrote in message
news:912701ff-292d-4a59...@y31g2000vbp.googlegroups.com...
bob haller
is the entires condo main only 50 amps?
Mikepier
> strap, as the ground, in this case being the steel of the cables as well as
> the enclosure itself, must be isolated from the neutral bar. You don't need
> to install a ground bar unless you plan to install some Romex cables or
> other type of cable that used a ground wire. All of the mentioned panels are
Ok, now heres another question. I am running some new BX.
I see HD has MC lite, which is lite metal clad with a ground.I believe
the outer metal clad is made out of aluminum. It does feel lighter.
And they sell the regular steel clad BX w/o ground. Both seem to run
about the same price for about 100ft roll.
Can I use the MC lite? Seems like you get both a metal clad and a
ground in one cable.
Mikepier
>
> - Show quoted text -
Yes.
Nate Nagel
> Much easier to just snap in some new breakers. Compared to
> pushing all those wires around. Still, it's a good idea to
> upgrade to new, if at all possible.
>
In the case of a Stab-Lok panel that won't solve all the problems, even
if you can find good breakers. Apparently the bus design of those
panels is a weakness as well. I'd just replace with new. AFAIK
Square-D QO seems to be the most highly regarded residential panel,
although it's the Homeline (less expensive) that uses the standard
breaker/bus size/shape.
nate
--
replace "roosters" with "cox" to reply.
http://members.cox.net/njnagel
John Grabowski
*I agree with RBM. If all of your grounds are through the BX armor, then
you don't need a ground bar. It is a cheap and easy installation now though
in case you add a Romex circuit later. You will need to make sure that all
of your connectors and locknuts are tight to ensure good ground continuity
through the BX. Do not bond the neutral bar to the panel using the ground
straps. That would only be done if this was a main panel. What you have is
a sub-panel. The bond strap is already (Or should be) installed at the
meter and main breaker location.
I think that Square D QO and the Cutler-Hammer tan line are best known for
their higher quality, but any brand should suffice for your needs. Murray
is made by Siemens and the circuit breakers are interchangeable. Lowes sells
GE panels with white covers for apartments and condos. If you are able to
move the stud and install a regular size panel, I suggest something like a
20 circuit or 24 circuit panel or at least a 12/20. You will have more room
inside of the panel to work in and plenty of room for future expansion
should the need arise.
You may want to get some white electrical tape and apply it to the neutral
conductors as it looks as though the color is fading on the existing wiring.
John Grabowski
*MC seems to be replacing BX and MC lite is very nice to carry and pull
compared to steel. One of the local supply companies that I deal with only
stocks MC. You can use MC cable, however the armor may not be an approved
grounding conductor. So you would need to install the ground bar for that.
Also you need to use connectors that are approved for MC cable. Regular BX
connectors are not approved for MC although there are some that are approved
for both. You will also need to install anti-short bushings at each end.
Pete C.
I'm a big fan of Square D QO series as top quality. Just a week ago I
helped someone replace a failed CH tan breaker feeding their heat pump,
nothing wrong on the circuit, strictly a breaker failure. Even
disconnected and sitting in my hand the breaker handle would not latch
on.
John Grabowski
*I don't think any breaker is failsafe. I've replaced QO breakers that have
gone bad after 20 years. I think loose connections and arcing are
contributing factors as is continuously pushing the load to the maximum
breaker rating.
Pete C.
Nate Nagel wrote:
>
> On 03/19/2011 10:18 AM, Stormin Mormon wrote:
> > Much easier to just snap in some new breakers. Compared to
> > pushing all those wires around. Still, it's a good idea to
> > upgrade to new, if at all possible.
> >
>
> In the case of a Stab-Lok panel that won't solve all the problems, even
> if you can find good breakers. Apparently the bus design of those
> panels is a weakness as well. I'd just replace with new. AFAIK
> Square-D QO seems to be the most highly regarded residential panel,
> although it's the Homeline (less expensive) that uses the standard
> breaker/bus size/shape.
Square D QO series is really a commercial series and is found in a lot
of commercial installations. The QOB series is essentially the same
breakers in a bolt on buss style used in some industrial applications.
Pete C.
Nothing is ever 100%, however this CH breaker was only around 5 years
old, original equipment in a recent housing development. Loose
connections and arcing will certainly do in otherwise good equipment. I
didn't see any signs of either on the CH breaker, indeed the screw
terminals were so tight I had to use a wrench on the screwdriver to
loosen them. Perhaps overtorquing when it was installed caused internal
damage.
I've not personally run across a failed QO breaker, but I'm not an
electrician either. I can say that I use QO in all of my personal
installations, including my new main panel and shop subpanel which I
upgraded at my current house in 2006 and I've not had any issues.
John Grabowski
*5 years is not much of a life for any brand of circuit breaker. I would
check the nameplate on the heatpump to see if it the size required by the
manufacturer. Of course there is no telling what happened to the breaker
during its trip from the factory to its final stop in the circuit breaker
panel (Like everything else).
RBM
"Stormin Mormon" <cayoung61**spamblock##@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:im2dqk$fhk$1...@news.eternal-september.org...
Bob(but not THAT Bob)
You can buy all new replacement breakers for that box, but they ARE
pricey:
I have a situation in the house I'm renovating where I plan to use this
box because it's rated compatible with an existing run of 6ga cable:
The house I'm currently living in has all FPE breakers - they've been
tripping just fine for the past 30 yrs, so I haven't worried about them.
Mikepier
> 20 circuit or 24 circuit panel or at least a 12/20. You will have more room
> inside of the panel to work in and plenty of room for future expansion
> should the need arise.
How many more circuits can I add? The main breaker in the meter room
is only 50A.
Besides the circuits I mentioned above, I would like to run a new
dedicated 20A for the bathroom( being shared by a 15A circuit now)
and at least 1 more 20A for the kitchen counter (code calls for 2, I
have 1 existing circuit there already).
RBM
** You can add as many as you have panel space to accommodate. You'll still
be limited by the 50 amp feeder and main
Mikepier
> be limited by the 50 amp feeder and main
I guess what I'm trying to ask is there any restriction as to what
size cabinet I can put in?
I am limited to space, but if I could , is there any code violation if
I put in lets say a 20/40 panel?
I thought the main service dictates how big of a panel you can put in.
John Grabowski
*No violation. Put in as big a panel as you think you will need for the
life of the condo. The 50 amp main circuit breaker will protect it from
being overloaded. If the 50 amp main breaker is old, you might want to
install a new one for the best protection. New FPE breakers are still
available for the price of a mortgage payment.
bob haller
might be a good idea to upgrade serive from the meter location to a
minimum of 100 amps and price a 200 amp upgrade. which might be very
little more
50 amps is really low for any home today:(
aemeijers
It's a condo. He doesn't own the meter base or the distribution wires,
if it is like most. Most condos, even the work 'inside the 4 walls' that
he has described, would have to be done by an association or management
company approved electrician. The whole building may only have 200 or
400 amp service, split among 4-6-8 units. If it has window A/C units, it
probably wasn't built as a condo, it is probably an old converted
apartment building from 1960s at newest, if the 240v outlets are
original. We just don't know, unless OP cares to post more details.
Being a glorified apartment, 50 amps is likely adequate, unless he is
planning on installing a server farm or ceramics kiln.
--
aem sends...
bob haller
>
> - Show quoted text -
Well at this point investigating options is a good idea and likely
free:)
ACs, electric water heaters, electric stoves, kitchen appliances, hair
dryers and curling irons, todays homes are power hungry.
Years ago a customer of mine reported he lived in a condo and his main
panel was bad and only 50 amps, and he couldnt go larger.
the power company put in a service drop at their expense just for him
for free:) A side benefit.... it freed up capacity for the other 3
residences, after that they upgraded too, although he didnt know the
details
he said it was a PIA getting everyone to agree but his cost was
minimal which he liked
Mikepier
> if it is like most. Most condos, even the work 'inside the 4 walls' that
> he has described, would have to be done by an association or management
> company approved electrician. The whole building may only have 200 or
> 400 amp service, split among 4-6-8 units. If it has window A/C units, it
> probably wasn't built as a condo, it is probably an old converted
> apartment building from 1960s at newest, if the 240v outlets are
> original. We just don't know, unless OP cares to post more details.
Correct, I believe the bldg is approx 60 units total, built around
1955-1960s. It has through the wall A/C's, with dedicated 220V outlets
next to them.
To my knowledge, all of the units have FPE panels.
Mikepier
> have a 100 amp 8/16 panel that's narrow (QO816L100F or S). They show a
> picture of the inside on page 7. You would probably have to go to a supply
> house that is a Square D distributor to get one. Be sure to get a separate
> ground bar.
>
> http://static.schneider-electric.us/docs/Electrical%20Distribution/Lo...- Hide quoted text -
>
I went to Lowes this morning, and although they only had a 6/12 Square
D Lug box, the dimensions are the same for 8/16, which is 12.57"
X8.88".
It looked pretty tight in the box, with the neutral bar being op top,
And only like a inch space on the left side to route the neutrals. If
it looked that tight for a 6/12, the 8/16 is even tighter.
The other boxes I saw (GE/Murray,Cutler Hammer) although bigger looks
like it had more room inside.
John Grabowski
*I think that the Square D box is slightly deeper, but go with whatever box
that you want. It's nice to have plenty of working space.
RBM
I had only suggested a QO because of your possible space restrictions. If
you've got the room, I'd get a box big enough to walk in.
Mikepier
> you've got the room, I'd get a box big enough to walk in.
I appreciate the suggestion, thanks anyway.
Mikepier
> compared to steel. One of the local supply companies that I deal with only
> stocks MC. You can use MC cable, however the armor may not be an approved
> grounding conductor. So you would need to install the ground bar for that.
Ok, so heres my next question. I saw ground buss bars at HD. How do
you mount these inside the boxes?
I don't see any holes in the panels that line up, it looks like I
need to drill 2 holes and install nuts and bolts.
Is there a method of doing this?
RBM
**You can drill and tap or use bolts. Scrape the paint off first
bob haller
> "Mikepier" <mikep...@optonline.net> wrote in message
Is a condo application with a seperate meter room........
Is the main really a main? or should the grounds be isolated from the
neutral like a sub panel is
The new main panel should be mounted to wood, and if thats the case
wood screws can attach the bus bar to the cabinet, screing thru to the
wood
RBM
"bob haller" <hal...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:f6204624-a69b-47f7...@j9g2000prj.googlegroups.com...
** The new panel is a sub panel. It will probably be mounted to 2x4's on
each side. The grounding buss bar ABSOLUTELY CANNOT be mounted with wood
screws, screwed through the box.
You know Haller, even a broken clock is correct twice a day, I'm not so sure
bout you
bob haller
> "bob haller" <hall...@aol.com> wrote in message
>
> - Show quoted text -
Well I added a buss bar to a existing main, used wood screws to mount
it thru the bar into the plywood mount board.Ran copper line to
existing buss bar, so it was properly connected
It passed middle states inspection, in the process of a home sale/
the idiot home inspector wrote up the main because although it had the
inspection sticker the signature was no longer legible, the ink had
faded.you could still see it had been signed
Now how would anyone add a buss bar to a existing panel, unless you
were willing to disconnect everything, remove the box and use machine
screws and nuts...
RBM
** First of all, this is a new sub panel, which has no existing grounding
bar to connect to. There is only a neutral buss. You can install the bar by
drilling and taping. We do it all the time
John Grabowski
*Like RBM said, you may have to drill and tap some holes. Most panels come
with predrilled holes that just need tapping with an 8/32 tap. However
unless you get the ground bar specifically for your panel (There is usually
a part number on the inside label) you will have to drill out the ground bar
or drill a hole or two in the panel. You cannot use bolts with nuts without
tapped holes. It is important for a good ground connection to have fine
threads screwed into the box. Sheet metal screws and self drilling Tek
screws are not acceptable and neither is wood screws.
RBM
"John Grabowski" <jgra...@optonline.net> wrote in message
news:4d891eff$0$13449$607e...@cv.net...
>
You cannot use bolts with nuts without tapped holes.
If you have less than 2 threads in the tapping, you must use nuts (250.8-5)
John Grabowski
> You cannot use bolts with nuts without tapped holes.
>
> If you have less than 2 threads in the tapping, you must use nuts
> (250.8-5)
*Thanks for the clarification Roy.
Mikepier
happen to stumble across a Square D Homeline value pack HOM1224L125VP
12/24 that come with 2-20A breakers and a factory installed ground
bar. Whats wierd is Lowes doesn't show this on their website, nor does
Squared D have this in the catalog. When I e-mailed Squared-D this is
the reply I got within 5 minutes.
"Thank you for your recent internet inquiry.
The HOM1224L125VP consists of a HOM1224L125TC -125Amp 12 space/24
circuit factory installed main lug load center with equipment ground
bar kit, and
(2) HOM120 Homeline 20 Amp single pole circuit breakers.
The HOM1224L125TC is available separately, and the -T in the -TC
suffix is for a factory installed ground bar"
So it looks like I found the panel I'm looking for. Just goes to show
sometimes you have to go to the store and look more closely as some
companies manufacture product exclusivly for Lowes or HD.
John Grabowski
*Congratulations on the good find. Yes the valuepacks that include branch
circuit breakers are packaged exclusively for the retailers. The panels
sold at the electrical supply companies never come with branch circuit
breakers which makes the products at Home Depot and Lowes very enticing.