Construction of sprung dance floor?
RickH
It is a 6200 square foot bare maple floor constructed in the early
1920's. It has had dancers on it continuously since then dancing to
all the great swing bands of the 20's through 50's and continuing to
this day.
It is an amazing floor, it is mechanically sprung like no other floor
I have ever been on. It has a wonderful thump, smoothness and bounce
that is unheard of in these days of banquet halls where some dumb-ass
restaurant owner simply applies some prefinished flooring to concrete
and calls it a dance floor.
The Willowbrook floor is referenced in this wiki article about floor
construction, but is not detailed enough for my project:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sprung_floor
My dream is to install this same kind of floor in a building I own. I
would love to see exactly how the Willowbrook is constructed, but that
wont be possible. I've danced on sprung floors over foam, and it is
simply terrrible, like landing on sand, there is cushion but no return
in energy, foam sucks. The Willowbrook floor is somehow sprung using
wood.
I will finish the with 1 inch T&G bare maple just like Willowbrook.
Of course over 90 years of dancers feet does more amazing things to
bare maple, which can never be replicated in ones lifetime.
Does anyone here have any knowledge on how the amazing dance floors of
early the 1920's were constructed? In terms of the under structure?
Possibly any old-timers who installed basketball courts in the 1950's,
might be similar?
If you have knowledge like this, please share this lost art in the
wiki article before you die.
RickH
Additionally, I get the feeling that the Willowbrook has a 3 layer
basketweave spring system. One cannot detect any "studs" or solid
spots anywhere, all is good and springy.
Here is a diagram of a triple basketweave spring system:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Woodsprung.svg
Based on this diagram what species/size would you use for the
basketweave battens?
Also assuming 3/4 inch maple on top, would 1/2 inch plywood be a good
load distribution layer (underlayment)? My fear is that 3/4 inch
plywood would negate the effect of the basket springs by being too
stiff.
RickH
>
> - Show quoted text -
Well here is an amazing time-lapse video of what I think I need to do,
(you gotta see this video if you are a carpenter its really cool):
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m2VWSrveRKE&feature=related
They actually go with a 4 layer basketweave, with the last batten
weave getting fiberglass batting to give the floor a nicer sound tone
and hide any rattles i guess.
The underlayment appears to be thin as I hoped so to take advantage of
the basket structure, maybe 5/8 or 1/2 ply one layer.
It would be my guess that they shoot a screw through each intersection
of the basket batens because I think nails would pull out and cause
the battens to "slap", is this a correct assumption? The first layer
of batens appears to be sitting on small hard rubber pads, maybe 1/8
to 1/4 inch thick neoprene squares?
I might be answering all my own questions, but appreciate any input
from pros or others here.
Jim Elbrecht
>I dance 3 or 4 nights a week on the Willowbrook Ballroom dance floor.
>It is a 6200 square foot bare maple floor constructed in the early
-snip-
>
>My dream is to install this same kind of floor in a building I own. I
>would love to see exactly how the Willowbrook is constructed, but that
>wont be possible.
Pray tell, Why? You have the time, you are apparently mobile, and
you are there 3-4 times a week. You are considering taking on a
*huge* [as in expensive and time consuming] job to do something that
will give you pleasure for the rest of your mobile life- and probably
will be enjoyed by a few others along the way.
If you can't make an appointment with the groundskeeper or whoever,
then you don't have the skills necessary to build, or direct the
building of the floor.
-snip-
>
>If you have knowledge like this, please share this lost art in the
>wiki article before you die.
I'll be waiting to see the photographs and notes you take when you go
visit the floor.
Jim
Robert Neville
>Does anyone here have any knowledge on how the amazing dance floors of
>early the 1920's were constructed?
Google is your friend. Search on the terms "sprung dance floor construction"
Wikipedia notes: Early sprung floors often used leaf or coil springs whence the
name, these floors tended to bounce, modern floors have suppressed this
'trampoline' effect and so are often called semi-sprung.
RickH
I teach ballroom dance thats why. When I retire from my day job I
hope to get a studio started in this building rather than having to
constantly meet up with students at other locations. That day may
come sooner than I planned. Visit what floor? I said I'm on the
Willowbrook floor 4 times a week, by "wont be possible" I meant they
certainly wont "rip up" a few floor boards for my convenience to see
whats under it. Thats why I'm looking for input from someone who has
useful advice like someone making basketball courts, etc. Got any
useful advice?
Robert Neville
> I meant they certainly wont "rip up" a few floor boards for my convenience to see
>whats under it.
One suspects there probably is an access point for inspections or maintenance.
Wouldn't hurt to ask the management.
Jim Elbrecht
-snip-
>
>
>I teach ballroom dance thats why. When I retire from my day job I
>hope to get a studio started in this building rather than having to
>constantly meet up with students at other locations. That day may
>come sooner than I planned. Visit what floor? I said I'm on the
>Willowbrook floor 4 times a week, by "wont be possible" I meant they
>certainly wont "rip up" a few floor boards for my convenience to see
>whats under it. Thats why I'm looking for input from someone who has
>useful advice like someone making basketball courts, etc. Got any
>useful advice?
>
Yeah. 4 days a week you work in a building that has exactly what you
want in a floor. As far as we know you haven't asked the guy who
keeps that floor in shape if he can show you how it is put together. I
can't imagine that there are no access points. If you're lucky he
will share the same passion for the construction that you do for
dance. The worst case scenario- he says 'no'.
Y'know how a picture is worth 1000 words? Looking at the real thing
is worth a million.
Jim
Larry Fishel
> > I meant they certainly wont "rip up" a few floor boards for my convenience to see
> >whats under it.
Have you asked if there is access beneath the floor for maintenance?
It's hard to imagine that anything that flexes that much could
possibly last 80 years without it.
RickH
If it is constructed like the video I posted then there would be no
inherent access as everything is nailed or screwed together. I know
pretty much every square inch and there are no trap doors or anything
like that, all is nailed tight. The basement just shows steel I beam
joists on 12x12 concrete pylons spaced approx 16 to 20 feet in a
grid. The perimeter (for seating) is raised to the floor level and is
concrete with tile, so whole dance floor is sunken so to speak with
tables surrounding it.
I suspect that it is a 4 layer basket weave of 1x3 douglas fir (or
even oak) like the video. Since commercial plywood was in production
for about 20 years at the time of construction (1921) I'm assuming the
underlayment is also plywood. Top wood is 1 inch bare strip maple
laid in a diagonal pattern forming a 6200 square foot "big diamond" on
the whole rectangular floor. Based on how 3/4 inch plywood typically
feels and sounds on a joist floor, I dont think the underlayment is
that thick. This floor gives back a lot of energy and has a very low
pitched thump when stomped indicating that the maple skin and
underlayment is like one big bass drum; completley unlike flooring on
joists which is solid and only rings to the extent it can vibrate
joist to joist. The basketweave support allows the whole floor to not
have any "hard spots",( like when you can tell where the joists are on
a joist floor by knocking). I dont think it can be sprung on real
springs as it is so old steel springs could not have lasted 90 years
of 400+ patrons doing the lindy each night simultaneously.
It is truly the "Stradivarius" of dance floors in the USA, and I've
danced most all the ballrooms that are still left in existence.
RickH
Like all finer dance floors it is bare hardwood, no maintenance other
than a sweeping and occasional board replacement, which they probably
have to custom rip since the strips do not look like any modern
standard size. I'll ask the Polish lady that owns the place if there
is access.
Steve Barker
i assure you, someone, somewhere, knows all about that floor. Check
around with the old timers.
Hell Toupee
> Does anyone here have any knowledge on how the amazing dance floors of
> early the 1920's were constructed? In terms of the under structure?
> Possibly any old-timers who installed basketball courts in the 1950's,
> might be similar?
The ballroom may still have the original blueprints and construction
paperwork from when it was built. If they don't, I'd next recommend
contacting a research library or historical society in your area. A
lot of times they have archives containing blueprints and articles
about buildings constructed in the surrounding areas. Architects often
donate their blueprints and notes to the local research library or
historical society when they retire.
Both the research library and historical society in my area have such
information available on one heck of a lot of the old buildings in
this state - not just commercial buildings, but a good many of the
private homes, too. It's always worth checking such resources if
you're renovating an old building or looking for information on how to
replicate something.
The Daring Dufas
I always knew there was something special about some of the floors for
dance halls, basketball courts and such but I never knew those floors
were THAT special. I'm glad you brought it up, I have now learned
something new.
TDD
RickH
Great idea, sounds like something I'd actually enjoy doing.
RickH
wrote:
>
> - Show quoted text -
I think the youtube video I posted has it right. Essentially your're
constructing a massive skinned membrane that can both cushion-flex and
return a good portion of the energy back again, with no detectable
joist hard spots. I think basketball, squash and racquetball courts
have similar needs as a dance floor, but use a thicker or doubled
underlayment for ball rebound. Athletic players still need some give
too though, additionally court sports require no slip (so wood is
varnished heavily), whereas in dance you want controlled slip and
moderate grip (so bare unfinished wood is best). Ballet dancers have
it especially difficult, (especially ballerinas landing on toes), and
would probably appreciate a softer floor with even more give than a
ballroom dancer. Court sports systems seem to be all using rubber or
resilient metal spring systems these days instead of a wood
basketweave. Although I'd like to shoot some hoops on a 1930's court
just to see what its like compared to my gym. I've learned a lot too,
mainly dont call up a generic yellow pages flooring guy to do your
dance studio or athletic courts, they would be clueless.
mm
<pass...@windcrestsoftware.com> wrote:
>
>If it is constructed like the video I posted then there would be no
That's a big "if", expeciallly regarding access from underneath.
>inherent access as everything is nailed or screwed together. I know
>pretty much every square inch and there are no trap doors or anything
>like that, all is nailed tight. The basement just shows steel I beam
>joists on 12x12 concrete pylons spaced approx 16 to 20 feet in a
>grid. The perimeter (for seating) is raised to the floor level and is
>concrete with tile, so whole dance floor is sunken so to speak with
>tables surrounding it.
Regardless of how much evidence you have, you should ask. I long ago
lost track of the many things I've learned by asking, even when I
thought there was no answer.
Are you being shy? People like to be asked and they like to help,
especialy if your opening a *small enough* dance studio that won't
damage their business but which might provide more customers for their
business. And especially if you start off with a few compliments.
RickH
> On Thu, 31 Dec 2009 18:07:40 -0800 (PST), RickH
>
I have no problem asking, just thought I'd ask here first as the
people there are simply restaurant owners, not carpenters.
In the basement under the main ballroom there is another banquet room
with a low ceilng, you can see the underside of the main floor there.
It is a steel Ibeam system with smaller steel joists running on 24
inch centers between larger Ibeams that are pocketed into concrete
pillars in a grid. Laying on all that appears to be 2x lumber to form
the base of main ballroom floor (under the basketweave system). All
this underside is sprayed with fireproofing insulation except in a few
spots where I can see 2x lumber (might even be 3x lumber). So you
cant see much from under side IOW.
This ballroom is also legendary for the "Ressurection Mary" ghost
legend BTW.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Resurrection_Mary
So this thread gets even more interesting for you ghost lovers... My
parents used to drag me along to Willowbrook in the 1950's when they
wanted to go dancing and had no baby-sitter, so you might say I've
been coming here for over 50 years myself.
Al Capone also hung out at Willowbrook a lot during prohibition and
was thought to have an escape tunnel from Willowbrook, I'll find out
about that too. Willow Springs is well-known as a place where
mobsters dropped dead bodies in the 20's and 30's as it was right down
Archer ave. from the city and at the time was considered remote, there
are waterways, ponds and filled quarries where autos and bodies were
often dumped by Chicago gangsters to this day. Additionally the local
govt and police dept in Willow Springs for many years had close ties
to the mob.
I doubt that any of the original carpenters are alive but I may be
able to do some research locally for things not yet available on the
web.
Jim
"RickH" <pass...@windcrestsoftware.com> wrote in message
news:2f80e25f-9b3e-42b4...@s3g2000yqs.googlegroups.com...
Check this site out here
http://www.dancedeck.com/?gclid=CP6V7JC9hJ8CFdA65QodnV5BRQ and also Google
"Horse Hair Dance floor" as it was made in the '20's......Hope that was of
some help... Jim
RickH
> "RickH" <passp...@windcrestsoftware.com> wrote in message
> "Horse Hair Dance floor" as it was made in the '20's......Hope that was of
>
> - Show quoted text -
Thanks,
The foam underlayment floors are better than a hard floor I guess but
nowhere near as good as a real wood sprung floor. Firstly there is no
"thud" the foam floors are dead silent useless for soft shoe or tap,
and secondly the surface is not bare maple or oak, it is usually a
plastic laminate or poly coated wood. Most dancers do not like the
foam floors much. Thirdly the foam does not really give back enough,
it pads, but doesnt give back, kind of like dancing on sand all give
with no bounce regardless of what the brochure says.
Thanks for the horse hair info though, I dont think this is an option
but it is nice to know some of those are still in service. I know the
Willowbrook is not horse hair as there is a definite ring and thud
when stomped.
sligoNo...@hotmail.com
<pass...@windcrestsoftware.com> wrote:
>I dance 3 or 4 nights a week on the Willowbrook Ballroom dance floor.
>It is a 6200 square foot bare maple floor constructed in the early
>1920's. It has had dancers on it continuously since then dancing to
>all the great swing bands of the 20's through 50's and continuing to
>this day.
>
Check with someone who puts in true professional wood basket
ball floors. Today most that I know of use rubber donuts to absorb
the shock. I have seen severl designs for the rest.
I put in two for dance studios. For both I used rubber blocks
(sorry I forget where I got them) under 3/4 plywood with interlocking
parkay wood tile. Between the two they have lasted over 20 years now.
Doug Brown
If you are interested in this sort of thing it might pay you to check out
this link: http://www.danceland.ca/
Not sure if I'd cann this a "sprung" floor but it's built on horsehair.