Do dishwashers need drain hose to rise above level of drain pump?
Sum Guy
plumbing (ie - no sink nearby).
I've brought the water supply from the basement directly below the
dishwasher through a hole in the floor. I've routed the drain hose from
the pump directly down through the floor and connected it to a 2" ABS
drain pipe that runs at a slight down angle for about 10 feet and ties
into the existing drain system from the kitchen.
Normally I think that it's expected that the drain hose runs up above
the level of the drain pump for maybe a foot before it ties into a
nearby sink drain pipe.
But since I have my hose running down immediately when it comes off the
drain pump, I'm wondering if I might have some siphon action going on
whereby the water always has a tendency to drain through the pump even
if the pump isin't running - because I don't think that manufacturers
would install an electric cut-off valve to prevent water from draining
when it isin't supposed to.
Comments?
LouB
How about using more drain hose and putting a big loop in the drain hose
so it rises before going thru the hole in the floor. Also might help
control sewer gas??
Gordon Shumway
Most dishwashers require the drain hose to loop to a level higher than
what the highest possible operating water level. Read your
installation manual for your dishwasher.
Some may require an air gap. Read your installation manual for your
dishwasher.
Some have maximum lengths for the drain hose. Read your installation
manual for your dishwasher.
You will find the answer to all of our questions in your installation
manual for your dishwasher.
Why do people ask questions to strangers that they themselves could
answer by doing a little reading?
Sum Guy
> Why do people ask questions to strangers that they themselves could
> answer by doing a little reading?
This is a 14 year-old dish washer. I don't think I have the manual any
more.
I thought I was asking a question that would apply to all dishwashers.
Molly Brown
What might happen if the “the existing drain system from the kitchen”
gets plugged up. Is the sewage entering from a higher source going to
start backing-up into your dishwasher and onto the floor?An air-gap
prevents this from happening.
Gordon Shumway
Did you go to the manufacturers web site and see if an installation
manual was available for download?
hal...@aol.com
quick temp fix 14 years ago till we put in a new kitchen which never
occured. The dishwasher has been replaced twice over the years.
I have a drain loop as high as the top of the dishwasher top to
prevent siphoning t works fine
Ed Pawlowski
"Molly Brown" <recycl...@charter.net> wrote
>
> What might happen if the “the existing drain system from the kitchen”
> gets plugged up. Is the sewage entering from a higher source going to
> start backing-up into your dishwasher and onto the floor?An air-gap
> prevents this from happening.
>
Air gap is code in some places. OTOH, I've not had one in either of my
houses, a total of 40+ years and never a problem.
JimT
"Gordon Shumway" <Rho...@Planet.Melmac> wrote in message
news:ouv656pt4dpdqg28o...@4ax.com...
> Why do people ask questions to strangers that they themselves could
> answer by doing a little reading?
You do realize you just contradicted yourself. <g>
Why not? I get plenty of really good advice here. I don't take the advice
literally but I often get steered in the right direction. Also, the process
of writing the question out probably helps me more than the answers.
This is a sounding board. The problem you have is always a problem someone
here has already been through. Bouncing ideas here and elsewhere is
priceless.
Have faith in the common man and remember the choice is always up to you and
you won't go wrong. If it seems like a stupid idea, it probably is, and if
it seems like good advice run with it. :-)
mm
Does it really?
An air gap is meant to break the siphoning action by allowing air to
fill what would otherwise be a siphon.
But with his suggested design and your suggested clog, it's not a
matter of siphoning. The water from above, including toilet sewage,
would stop at the clog, then go up the dishwasher hose to the
anti-siphon**, then a little will squeeze out the anti-siphon hole and
the rest would continue its route to the dishwasher, work its way
through the pump blades and end up in the bottom of the dishwasher.
**And up any other pipes available also, like the one to the bathtub,
the shower, the sinks, if they connect before the clog.
The way to avoid this is to not have clogs. I've been here 27 years
and never come close to a clog, and I never had a clog anywhere else
I've lived either. Because I don't let anything unusual go down the
drain. But i"m not saying a conscientious person can't have a clog.
I just don't know how it could happen.
If it ever does happen, he'll have to run the dishwasher through a
couple cycles empty to clean it out. That's a lot easier than
cleaning up a dirty overflowed toilet. (but not much harder than
cleaning out the bathtub) If the mechanism permits, he can speed it
through the washing and rinsing part since it will all be mixed with
water already anyhow.
mm
>
>
>But since I have my hose running down immediately when it comes off the
>drain pump, I'm wondering if I might have some siphon action going on
>whereby the water always has a tendency to drain through the pump even
>if the pump isin't running
Do you mean, While you are washing the dishes, the water will be
draining, since it won't require a pump to drain?**
So if the water is draining while you're washing, new water, not yet
heated by the dishwasher, will be added to replace the water that has
drained out, and sometimes the dishwasher may pause if the water level
gets too low, until it goes up again. But I sort of think the water
can't drain during the wash and rinse spraying cycles, because the
pump that handles the draining is redirected to handle the spraying.
What about pauses, like the filling stages? Would whatever directs
the water to either spray or drain keep it from draining during the
fill stages? I guess the answer might be found in hallerb's post, but
he has a full heigbt loop. So I"m still curious.
If this is what you mean, it's not really siphoning**, which refers to
going uphill on its way to going downhill. For example, siphoning
from a gas tank requires it to up the hose from the tank to the
outside, and then downhill after that. That it can do this is the
"mystery of siphoning".
But except for the footnote**, you're just talking about going
downhill. That's called draining. :-)
Even if you're talking about the toilet draining from upstairs getting
stopped by a clog and then going up into the dishwasher, I think
that's called water finding its own level. I wouldn't call it
siphoning. Although it took me a while to realize this. I was also
influenced by the anti-siphon thing on the sink.
**Or do you mean that there is a trap in a normal dishwasher and if
you drain down, it will siphon the water out of the trap. I don't
think it's called a trap or built like a trap , but even if not a
trap, some water is left inside the dishwasher all the time that the
pump doesn't normally expel. There is such water aiui, but it's not
needed to stop sewer gases normally, because the normal output of a
dishwasher is to the sink drain above the sink trap. So the sink trap
stops the sewer gases.
Is the drain you plan to connect to, is it above a later trap, or are
there no more traps before you get to the sewer? If there are no more
traps, yes I think it will drain the water from the dishwasher
(whether that is called a trap or not.) and the sewer gasses will come
out through the dishwasher. (In the other post, I was only arguing
some more about the term siphoning.
If you put in a loop, woudl that be sufficient? Doesn't there need to
be an anti-siphon device, or indeed it would siphon.
IIUC, if you put in a loop, the inside bottom surface of the hose
would only have to be as high as the water level when the machine has
finished its cycle, or at most the surface water level while it is
running, which isn't that much higher, but I think others said it had
to be higher yet or at least theirs was higher.
> - because I don't think that manufacturers
>would install an electric cut-off valve to prevent water from draining
>when it isin't supposed to.
I doubt they would, and regardless of whether you still have a
problem, I'd be interested in knowing what would happen if the drain
goes straight down.
>Comments?
LouB
That's what I suggested:-))
HeyBub
What happens when you try your configuration?
Roy
==
Yep, way to go.
==
tra...@optonline.net
>
> - Show quoted text -
I would be first concerned about whether or not there is a trap. From
the description, it sounds like it's a direct connection to a sewer
pipe. If so, that;s a code violation and could allow sewer gases to
enter the dishwasher.
If you have a trap with a proper vent system per code, and the end of
the dishwasher hose goes into the trap like a washing machine hose
would, ie it's not sealed, then I don't think you have any problems.
If the sewer backs up, the water will come out where the hose enters
the system and not go up into the dishwasher above.
Roy
==
If he continues to build it as he described, he will seriously
compromise the sanitation of the dishwasher AND of the sewage system.
Best he get some expert advice and most likely qualified plumber as
well.
==
Sum Guy
> > I would be first concerned about whether or not there is a trap.
> > From the description, it sounds like it's a direct connection to
> > a sewer pipe. If so, that's a code violation and could allow
> > sewer gases to enter the dishwasher.
You are correct - there is no trap between the dish washer and the sewer
line the way I have it right now.
Although I've never smelled anything strange in the dish washer,
probably because there could always be some water sitting in the pump
acting like a barrier preventing a direct airway connection to the sewer
line. Or the pump's impeller is enough of a barrier to prevent airflow.
> > If the sewer backs up, the water will come out where the hose
> > enters the system and not go up into the dishwasher above.
I'm not afraid of a sewer backup. We have a separate storm-water sewer
system that's not tied into our sewer system, and we're sitting on a
higher elevation (relatively speaking) compared to other parts of the
city. We don't have sump pumps in our basements either.
> If he continues to build it as he described, he will
> seriously compromise the sanitation of the dishwasher
> AND of the sewage system.
Hydraulically speaking, I'm not concerned about backflow from the sewer
to the dish washer.
But I am curious about your concern about comprimising the sanitation of
the sewage system. Could you explain that point a little more?
> Best he get some expert advice and most likely qualified
> plumber as well.
I can't believe that something as simple as whether or not a dishwasher
drain hose must always form a loop (inverted trap) wouldn't be more well
known if it was common knowledge.
For example:
http://lgknowledgebase.com/kb/index.php?View=entry&EntryID=3072
Note that in every diagram, the peak of the hose rises to the highest
level as close to the top of the sink as possible.
I'm not sure what that do-hickey is in the last diagram - identified as
an "air gap" that seems to protrude above the counter top. That can't
be a desirable thing to have poking through your counter-top.
This video:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S_0OWuFVLNw
explains how sink drain water can run back into the dishwasher.
In my case, I'm providing the dishwasher with it's own large 2" drain
pipe that connects directly to one of the main 4" vertical lines that
drains a bunch of fixtures from several rooms (probably about half the
house).
If that 4" line ever backed up to the level of the top of my basement
ceiling, then another foot higher it would reach the level of the bottom
of my dishwasher, then another 1/2 foot higher it would reach the level
of the bowl of my main-floor toilet, and then another 2 feet higher the
backup would start filling the kitchen sink.
So if I was ever worried about a sewer backup into the dishwasher, it
wouldn't take much more to backup my ground-floor toilet bowl (I don't
have a basement toilet or sink, but if I did, then they'd backup before
my dishwasher would). I do have a basement floor drain near my furnace
where my AC condensate drains, but I'm not sure if that's tied into the
storm sewer or sanitary sewer (probably sanitary sewer). So that would
most likely backup before anything else would - unless the backup was
caused by a plug in my main vertical 4" drain pipes.
LSMFT
As long as you are going at a continuous downward angle below the pump
it will siphon out just fine. It's when they drain into the sink drain
above the pump level that they need a loop above the drain level to get
siphon action to completely drain the dishwasher.
--
LSMFT
Those who would give up Essential Liberty
to purchase a little Temporary Safety,
deserve neither Liberty nor Safety.
Benjamin Franklin--
Pat
"Sum Guy" <S...@Guy.com> wrote in message news:4C53767A...@Guy.com...
Not sure I would make a direct connection to the drain in the basement. I
would probably add a stand pipe with trap and air vent much like I was
plumbing for a clothes washer. I would raise the drain to the dishwasher to
just below the countertop before heading to the basement simply because
every dishwasher install instructions that I've seen says to do it. Most
instructions allow increasing the hose length if needed.
Roy
==
Please talk to a plumber...he/she will provide the information that
you need desperately. You are laboring under a load of miss-
information and guesswork.
==
mm
>
>For example:
>
>http://lgknowledgebase.com/kb/index.php?View=entry&EntryID=3072
>
>Note that in every diagram, the peak of the hose rises to the highest
>level as close to the top of the sink as possible.
In the drawing but the text says the minimum is 30 inches. I think in
practice the easy place to put the air gap is at the rear of the sink.
>I'm not sure what that do-hickey is in the last diagram - identified as
>an "air gap" that seems to protrude above the counter top. That can't
>be a desirable thing to have poking through your counter-top.
Why not? I have one. It doesn't get in the way. The air gap is the
whole point of it. That's what stops the siphoning**. BTW, I once
had a little chicken bone, the one next to the drumstick, in the
air-vent and the dishwasher would not drain. It took a while to find
the problem, and I'm still not sure how this little bone kept it from
draining.
**although I'll admit, I havent' figured out when there would be
siphoning, or even in which direction. Stuff that would go into the
dishwasher woudn't be siphoned in, I think. Maybe it is there to stop
the water in the bottom of the dishwasher from being siphoned out????
>This video:
>
>http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S_0OWuFVLNw
>
>explains how sink drain water can run back into the dishwasher.
I'll have to look at that.
>In my case, I'm providing the dishwasher with it's own large 2" drain
>pipe that connects directly to one of the main 4" vertical lines that
>drains a bunch of fixtures from several rooms (probably about half the
>house).
>
>If that 4" line ever backed up to the level of the top of my basement
>ceiling, then another foot higher it would reach the level of the bottom
>of my dishwasher, then another 1/2 foot higher it would reach the level
>of the bowl of my main-floor toilet, and then another 2 feet higher the
>backup would start filling the kitchen sink.
Yes, the toilet would overflow first if the backup was in the 4" line.
Sum Guy
> > Comments?
>
> As long as you are going at a continuous downward angle below the
> pump it will siphon out just fine.
That's the problem. I'm wondering if the water is siphoning out when it
shouldn't be.
I can understand that the recommendation is that the drain hose make a
loop going up to above the level where the sink water-line might be - to
prevent the sink water from draining into the washer.
But if you don't have to worry about the drain from a sink (because
there isin't one nearby) then do you still have to worry about water
draining out of the washer when you don't have a rising loop in the
drain line?
Sum Guy
> Not sure I would make a direct connection to the drain in the
> basement.
It's conveinent.
> I would raise the drain to the dishwasher to just below the
> countertop before heading to the basement simply because
> every dishwasher install instructions that I've seen says
> to do it.
(I don't have a countertop - this is a portable dishwasher that I've
parked in the corner of the kitchen).
Do they recommend it to prevent the sink from draining into the washer,
or because the washer needs the drain line to go up first before it's
connected to a drain pipe because it can't stop water from siphoning out
by itself.
Sum Guy
> ==
> Please talk to a plumber...he/she will provide the information that
> you need desperately. You are laboring under a load of miss-
> information and guesswork.
> ==
Every post made to this newsgroup could be (non) answered with a similar
statement.
Just change "plumber" to "electrician, engineer, contractor, lawyer,
doctor" and you've covered 99% of all questions asked here.
In other words -
plonk.
Molly Brown
>
> - Show quoted text -
I’ve personally seen a house in a very affluent neighborhood of
California where the sewage from the street backed into the first
floor and completely flooded it and believe it or not the first floor
was about five feet higher than the street outside. Apparently this
house was somehow last in the sewer line coming down from a very
slight slope that apparently didn’t have an outlet or house for more
than five feet of rise. I had to pop open a clean-out outside so that
at least the sewage ran into the yard instead of the house until the
city could come and snake out the street from the manhole. .
Roy
==
Fine, do it your way.
<double plonk>
==
Dan Lanciani
[...]
| I can't believe that something as simple as whether or not a dishwasher
| drain hose must always form a loop (inverted trap) wouldn't be more well
| known if it was common knowledge.
One problem is that code requirements have changed over the years and
dishwasher (cost reduction) design has taken advantage of this. My
house's original dishwasher (~1959) was hard plumbed directly to a trap
in the basement. It had no high loop, no air gap, and no standpipe.
It did have a positive drain valve solenoid that closed the drain when
it was not trying to pump out water. It was also wider than current
dishwashers. As far as I know, that installation was to code at the time.
The first replacement dishwasher (in the 80's I think) was a KitchenAid
and while it did not have a drain valve it did use a separate pump for
removing water. It was happy with a high loop but still hard plumbed to
the trap in the basement. I _think_ the installation manual showed the
hard-piped trap as a valid (though not necessarily legal) configuration.
The next replacement (I don't remember the brand) in the 90's (notice
that life span is decreasing :) did not have a separate pump for removing
water. Instead it manipulated the circulating pump in such a way as to
cause a little plastic flap in a chamber to divert water out. This appeared
to depend critically on the back-pressure at the drain and I was unable to
make it work reliably with the hard-piped trap, regardless of high loops.
I was able to find a different brand that still worked with the hard-piped
trap, but I decided that that configuration's days were numbered so I
reworked the kitchen sink setup with a garbage disposal. The latest
replacement dishwasher has a high loop and empties into the dishwasher
port of that garbage disposal per the current preferred configuration.
IMHO, in general, a high loop saves you only if the drain hose opens
to air before it gets back as low as the highest water level in the
machine. This is the case with the garbage disposal port but not with
a hard-plumbed trap below the floor and not even with a standpipe below
the floor.
[...]
| I'm not sure what that do-hickey is in the last diagram - identified as
| an "air gap" that seems to protrude above the counter top. That can't
| be a desirable thing to have poking through your counter-top.
As the name implies, it is a true air gap that both prevents siphon and
diverts any reverse sewage flow onto your counter (which is arguably
better than hiding it in the dishwasher). The aperture on the dishwasher
side is smaller than that on the sewer side. This is currently the
ultimate in safety and (I believe) required by code in some places.
Something I'm not clear on is whether you can use an air gap and then
hard-plumb the outlet to a trap under the floor. Somehow I think that
even with the air gap you are supposed to enter a disposal or open sink
trap.
Dan Lanciani
ddl@danlan.*com
Gordon Shumway
wrote:
Apparently the OP is one, that when given good information, chooses to
ignore it. I still wonder why they ask in the first place. I hope I
never have a neighbor like that, trying to bring the property values
of the neighborhood down, every time they pick up a tool.
Sum Guy
> >> Every post made to this newsgroup could be (non) answered with
> >> a similar statement.
> >>
> >> Just change "plumber" to "electrician, engineer, contractor,
> >> lawyer, doctor" and you've covered 99% of all questions asked
> >> here.
> Apparently the OP is one, that when given good information,
Where is the "good" information?
All this talk about code and traps and air vents is nice, but it doesn't
speak to my primary question.
I want to know if dishwashers depend on having the discharge line rise
above the level of their drain-pump outlet before the connection point
to a drain pipe. This bit of plumbing may not be seen or noticed by
most people since it can happen inside the machine's chasis or
enclosure.
I happen to be routing the discharge line directly through the floor
under the machine, and the drain-pump outlet is just inches above the
floor surface.
I know I can route the discharge line up inside the enclosure for some
distance (2 feet at least) before looping it back down through the hole
in the floor. But I'd like to know if dishwashers depend on such an
arrangement or not.
Roy
==
Well, a plumber can tell you that and more.
==
Sum Guy
> > I want to know if dishwashers depend on having the discharge line
> > rise above the level of their drain-pump outlet before the
> > connection point to a drain pipe.
> ==
> Well, a plumber can tell you that and more.
> ==
So you're saying that I shouldn't expect an answer here from someone who
might be a plumber - or who is otherwise well-informed or knowledgeable?
Why does this newsgroup exist, if the pat-answer to all questions
(according to you) is to ask a (plumber, electrician, pipe fitter,
roofer, brick layer, engineer, chemist, contractor, lawyer, doctor, ...)
?
Roy
==
Qualified electricians, plumbers, etc., keep up on these things
because it is necessary for their job. I might remember what was up to
code when I installed an appliance back in 1982, but many code changes
may have come about since. I was not being a smart ass for suggesting
an expert in the field of plumbing but perhaps to help you avoid an
error which could cause financial or even health problems in the
future.
==
tra...@optonline.net
> Pat wrote:
> > Not sure I would make a direct connection to the drain in the
> > basement.
>
> It's conveinent.
Your lights go out because a 15 amp fuse blows. Following your logic,
you put in a 30 amp one because it's convenient. The lights are back
on. Problem solved.
There is a reason why code requires a trap and vent on drains.
Several people here have tried to explain to you why what you're doing
can and likely will result in sewer gas entering the dishwasher and
living space. But that doesn't concern you.
>
> > I would raise the drain to the dishwasher to just below the
> > countertop before heading to the basement simply because
> > every dishwasher install instructions that I've seen says
> > to do it.
>
> (I don't have a countertop - this is a portable dishwasher that I've
> parked in the corner of the kitchen).
>
> Do they recommend it to prevent the sink from draining into the washer,
> or because the washer needs the drain line to go up first before it's
> connected to a drain pipe because it can't stop water from siphoning out
> by itself.
Going up first doesn't stop a siphon from working. I can place one
bucket of water 15 feet higher than another. Take a hose, fill it
with water, put it in the high bucket and let the hose rise another 2
feet above the bucket. Put the other end in the lower bucket. The
water will still siphon.
The high loop is there so that if the sink drain backs up, it will
rise into the sink first and will only get to the dishwasher if it
rises clear to the top of the high loop, ie as high as the bottom of
the counter top. For it to rise that high is quite unlikely and
someone will likely notice the backup, as opposed to it going unoticed
and just contaminating the dishwasher.
But, why all the concern? You obviously don't care about doing
plumbing to code when there is an obvious and very good reason for the
code, ie a trap and vent to prevent sewer gas from coming into the
house. The dishwasher seems to be working, so just do it your way.
Gordon Shumway
>Where is the "good" information?
You have been given the following "good" information several times:
1. RTFB.
2. Get professional help.
Your choice is probably going to be "3. None of the above, I'm fully
capable of screwing things up all by myself".
Sum Guy
> > Do they recommend it to prevent the sink from draining into the
> > washer, or because the washer needs the drain line to go up
> > first before it's connected to a drain pipe because it can't
> > stop water from siphoning out by itself.
>
> Going up first doesn't stop a siphon from working.
Replace the word "siphoning" with "draining" above.
> The high loop is there so that if the sink drain backs up,
I don't have a sink drain. The dish washer is not competing with a sink
in this case. The washer is located in a corner of the kitchen away
from the kitchen counter and sink. The dish washer is not sharing a
common 2" drain pipe with an adjacent sink.
I've explained many times - I've arranged it so that the dish washer
discharge line is fed directly DOWN from the drain pump outlet through
the floor to a dedicated 2" ABS line that runs at a slight down-angle
for 10 feet to a connection on one of my primary 4" vertical sewer pipes
that runs into my concrete basement floor.
If something backs up on that 4" line, then I've got more of a problem
that could ever be solved by having a proper dedicated trap and vent for
the washer.
> But, why all the concern?
Because my washer does not seem to be operating properly - it seems to
need to have water added at times during the various cleaning cycles as
if water is leaving it for some reason.
I'm wondering if the water is draining through the drain pump because
there is no "up-loop" in the discharge line.
mm
>Roy wrote:
>
>> > I want to know if dishwashers depend on having the discharge line
>> > rise above the level of their drain-pump outlet before the
>> > connection point to a drain pipe.
>
>> ==
>> Well, a plumber can tell you that and more.
>> ==
>
>So you're saying that I shouldn't expect an answer here from someone who
>might be a plumber - or who is otherwise well-informed or knowledgeable?
You have to admit, this thread has been running for a long time, and
no one has answered your exact question. IIRC people have even
disagreed with some of the things that were said.
I don't remember anyone here being a licensed plumber.
>
>Why does this newsgroup exist,
I think about 20, 25 years ago, someone wanted to discuss home
repairs. Either that or someone just put it on the list, even though
he personally wasn't interested.
> if the pat-answer to all questions
But it's not the answer or an answer given to all questions. It
wasn't even the only answer given in this thread.
Pat
>
> Because my washer does not seem to be operating properly - it seems to
> need to have water added at times during the various cleaning cycles as
> if water is leaving it for some reason.
>
> I'm wondering if the water is draining through the drain pump because
> there is no "up-loop" in the discharge line.
Likely. Also the sewer gases are coming up into your dishwasher and
entering your house 24/7. The dishwasher is made to vent the air/moisture
inside out into your house.
Pat
> I want to know if dishwashers depend on having the discharge line rise
> above the level of their drain-pump outlet before the connection point
> to a drain pipe. This bit of plumbing may not be seen or noticed by
> most people since it can happen inside the machine's chasis or
> enclosure.
>
> I happen to be routing the discharge line directly through the floor
> under the machine, and the drain-pump outlet is just inches above the
> floor surface.
>
> I know I can route the discharge line up inside the enclosure for some
> distance (2 feet at least) before looping it back down through the hole
> in the floor. But I'd like to know if dishwashers depend on such an
> arrangement or not.
I think looping high is neccessary. Also since you are going into the
basement a air gap may be essential.
Sum Guy
> > I'm wondering if the water is draining through the drain pump
> > because there is no "up-loop" in the discharge line.
>
> Likely. Also the sewer gases are coming up into your dishwasher
> and entering your house 24/7.
Wouldn't my vent stack provide a lower-resistance path for sewer gas vs
trying to go through the dishwasher's drain pump?
FatterDumber& Happier Moe
You can hook it up with or with out the loop. If it works without the
loop good deal, if the water drains out as it fills then make a loop.
I'd do the loop anyway, bugs have a habit of crawling inside and up
anything they can and you might find a bug or two in your dishwasher
someday, if there is an air gap to the floor drain in the basement there
shouldn't be much chance of sewage contamination. If you and your family
are healthy a year from now, no problem! Me I'd want to make sure there
isn't sewer gas getting back to the dishwasher. A trap as close as
possible is the best way I know of to do that and the machine gets
plenty of hot water (that is really good at killing or reducing germs)
and dissolving fats. FWIW I always throw in some water in before
running my dishwasher, lubricates the seals before the water gets around
to flowing in, starting the dishwasher dry is a good way to shorten
it's life. I also turn on the hot water at the faucet to get the hot
water at least that far, then shut off the faucet so the dishwasher can
start with hot water coming in.
And finally the purpose of requiring licensing of plumbers is to
protect the public water supply. It is possible that an incorrectly
installed dishwasher (or anything) could be contaminated with sewage or
chemicals, then an improperly connected water supply via the plumbing
can back feed to the public water system causing contamination of the
public water supply system. It usually takes a chain of events for this
to happen but it does, nail, shoe, horse, soldier, battle kind of
thing. google "water supply cross contamination" if you are interested.
There are lots of examples of this happening. You just might be
drinking your neighbor's sewage or the chemicals he sprayed on his lawn.
Now go forth and get the dishes washed. What are wives good for
anymore? Aren't they supposed to wash the dishes?
tra...@optonline.net
> trad...@optonline.net wrote:
> > > Do they recommend it to prevent the sink from draining into the
> > > washer, or because the washer needs the drain line to go up
> > > first before it's connected to a drain pipe because it can't
> > > stop water from siphoning out by itself.
>
> > Going up first doesn't stop a siphon from working.
>
> Replace the word "siphoning" with "draining" above.
>
> > The high loop is there so that if the sink drain backs up,
>
> I don't have a sink drain. The dish washer is not competing with a sink
> in this case. The washer is located in a corner of the kitchen away
> from the kitchen counter and sink. The dish washer is not sharing a
> common 2" drain pipe with an adjacent sink.
No shit Sherlock, There was discussion about why the high loop was
called for in dishwasher installations. That was the point. It's
perfectly clear that you not only don't have a sink, but in fact are
connecting the dishwasher drain straight downhill into a sewer pipe
without a trap. I think just about everyone here will tell you:
A - That's a clear code violation
B - It's one code where the reason for it is clear and it makes
perfect sense.
>
> I've explained many times - I've arranged it so that the dish washer
> discharge line is fed directly DOWN from the drain pump outlet through
> the floor to a dedicated 2" ABS line that runs at a slight down-angle
> for 10 feet to a connection on one of my primary 4" vertical sewer pipes
> that runs into my concrete basement floor.
>
> If something backs up on that 4" line, then I've got more of a problem
> that could ever be solved by having a proper dedicated trap and vent for
> the washer.
Sigh... Once again, traps in sewer systems are not there to prevent
your sewer from backing up. They are there to prevent SEWER GASES
FROM ENTERING YOUR HOUSE every day. If traps aren't needed, why the
hell does every sink, washer, toilet, etc have one? You're concerned
that water may be running out of the dishwasher, but not that sewer
gas can be coming back in? Sounds great. Cleaned dishes sitting in
a closed dishwasher, exposed to sewer gas.
>
> > But, why all the concern?
>
> Because my washer does not seem to be operating properly - it seems to
> need to have water added at times during the various cleaning cycles as
> if water is leaving it for some reason.
>
> I'm wondering if the water is draining through the drain pump because
> there is no "up-loop" in the discharge line.
If it's behaving that way, then it could very well be happening. Do
you think every dishwasher uses exactly the same pump out design? No
one here is gonna know how your dishwasher, which you don't even
indicate the make or model is going to behave when you use it in a way
MOST people never would. As others have suggested, you could go to
the manfacturer's website and see if you can find an owners manual.
But even that will probably not answer the question. They will show
how it should be installed, but likely won't tell you what happens if
you do it another way.
But instead of speculating, why don't you just put a high loop in it
temporarily and see if it then works correctly? And regardless, get a
trap and do it right.
Sum Guy
> > Wouldn't my vent stack provide a lower-resistance path for sewer
> > gas vs trying to go through the dishwasher's drain pump?
Ok, so I guess nobody's gonna answer that.
> It is possible that an incorrectly installed dishwasher (or
> anything) could be contaminated with sewage or chemicals,
> then an improperly connected water supply via the plumbing
> can back feed to the public water system causing contamination
> of the public water supply system.
So how exactly can contaminated water overcome the somewhat high water
pressure of the municipal water system and backfeed into my water pipes
and spread to adjacent houses?
Wouldn't I need
a) a tank of at least 5-10 gallon capacity, filled with dirty water
b) a compressor or pump to take that water and inject it
at high pressure back into my main water supply line
c) the intent to put those items together and make it happen
How else could contaminated water flow back into the water supply
system?
> There are lots of examples of this happening. You just might be
> drinking your neighbor's sewage or the chemicals he sprayed on
> his lawn.
Where did I say that I was on well water? I'm not.
Sum Guy
> Sigh... Once again, traps in sewer systems are not there to
> prevent your sewer from backing up. They are there to prevent
> SEWER GASES FROM ENTERING YOUR HOUSE every day. If traps aren't
> needed, why the hell does every sink, washer, toilet, etc have
> one?
I've never argued against the fact that traps are needed and perform an
important function.
Yes, for fixtures like sinks and toilets that would otherwise have a
direct, open-air path to the sewer, the traps prevent an open-air direct
path.
But dishwashers and even clothes washers don't have such an open-air
path to a sewer pipe. They have pumps and maybe even solenoid valve
blocking that path.
> You're concerned that water may be running out of the dishwasher,
> but not that sewer gas can be coming back in? Sounds great.
> Cleaned dishes sitting in a closed dishwasher, exposed to sewer
> gas.
When the dishwasher is running and circulating water, then obviously
there can't be a direct open-air path from the inside of the washer to
the sewer pipe, otherwise the water would immediately drain out.
> No one here is gonna know how your dishwasher, which you don't
> even indicate the make or model
Kenmore portable, purchased fall 1996. I found the operating manual and
installation instructions. The model numbers on the manual don't match
the number on the decal on the washer. There is no mention of
hose-routing concerns in either manual. Probably because it's
physically impossible to route the drain line at a continuous down-angle
from the pump given a "normal" installation.
> But even that will probably not answer the question. They will
> show how it should be installed, but likely won't tell you what
> happens if you do it another way.
Correct.
> But instead of speculating, why don't you just put a high loop in
> it temporarily and see if it then works correctly?
That I will have to do. I just thought that I wouldn't have been the
only one here who would have run a dishwasher discharge line directly
down through the floor below the washer.
> And regardless, get a trap and do it right.
By adding an "up-loop", I am effectively forming a trap inside the
washer that will always contain some water. Or do you dispute that?
FatterDumber& Happier Moe
Where did I say you waz?
tra...@optonline.net
> trad...@optonline.net wrote:
> > Sigh... Once again, traps in sewer systems are not there to
> > prevent your sewer from backing up. They are there to prevent
> > SEWER GASES FROM ENTERING YOUR HOUSE every day. If traps aren't
> > needed, why the hell does every sink, washer, toilet, etc have
> > one?
>
> I've never argued against the fact that traps are needed and perform an
> important function.
No, you just say you're gonna do it without a trap.
>
> Yes, for fixtures like sinks and toilets that would otherwise have a
> direct, open-air path to the sewer, the traps prevent an open-air direct
> path.
>
> But dishwashers and even clothes washers don't have such an open-air
> path to a sewer pipe. They have pumps and maybe even solenoid valve
> blocking that path.
You have enough knowledge of the design of that pump to know that it
can't let sewer gas through? Does the plumbing code say it's OK to
rely on what you're doing instead of a trap?
Yes I dispute that. What you will have isn't a trap. It's an upside
down trap. When the dishwasher is done pumping, water on the sewer
side will run into the sewer. It will likely siphon the rest of the
water from the dishwasher side with it. Or the water left in that
side could run back into the bottom of the dishwasher basin. That
leaves the hose empty.
I can just imagine what other improvisations you have made that are
illegal.
Ed Pawlowski
"Sum Guy" <S...@Guy.com> wrote in message news:4C556DDE...@Guy.com...
> FatterDumber& Happier Moe wrote:
>
>> > Wouldn't my vent stack provide a lower-resistance path for sewer
>> > gas vs trying to go through the dishwasher's drain pump?
>
> Ok, so I guess nobody's gonna answer that.
>
>> It is possible that an incorrectly installed dishwasher (or
>> anything) could be contaminated with sewage or chemicals,
>> then an improperly connected water supply via the plumbing
>> can back feed to the public water system causing contamination
>> of the public water supply system.
>
> So how exactly can contaminated water overcome the somewhat high water
> pressure of the municipal water system and backfeed into my water pipes
> and spread to adjacent houses?
>
> Wouldn't I need
>
> a) a tank of at least 5-10 gallon capacity, filled with dirty water
> b) a compressor or pump to take that water and inject it
> at high pressure back into my main water supply line
> c) the intent to put those items together and make it happen
>
> How else could contaminated water flow back into the water supply
> system?
Well, if Saturn is behind the moon and the temperature is below 50 degrees
and your roses bloomed and . . . . . .
Backflow preventers are required by code for lawn sprinkler systems, boilers
that use chemicals, pretty much an process that is connected to a municipal
water supply. The fear is that if the town water pressure drops you can
even get a vacuum that willd raw contaminants into the system.
In the case of a dishwasher, the drain would first have to back up into the
wash chamber, (getting past the drain valve) and then past the solenoid
operated valve on the supply line, then sucked into the supply line as there
is no pressure to force it. I'd say it is a rather unlikely scenario.
Sum Guy
> > Where did I say that I was on well water? I'm not.
>
> Where did I say you waz?
You said:
> You just might be drinking your eighbor's sewage
> or the chemicals he sprayed on his lawn.
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
How could I be "drinking the chemicals he sprayed on his lawn" if both
he and myself are served by a municipal water source? Even taking into
account that I don't have a trap on my dish washer drain line?
And you didn't respond to the other comment I made about your last post:
Sum Guy
> > How else could contaminated water flow back into the water supply
> > system?
>
> Backflow preventers are required by code for lawn sprinkler systems,
> boilers that use chemicals, pretty much an process that is connected
> to a municipal water supply.
Does that include installing one at your dish washer or clothes washer?
The truth is that even if my (somewhat large city, not town) water
supply pressure fails (which has never happened in my living memory) I
garantee you that when it comes back that they'll tell people to run
their taps for several hours anyways. They'll treat the system as if it
*is* contaminated.
> In the case of a dishwasher (...) - I'd say it is a rather
> unlikely scenario.
Agreed.
Sum Guy
> > By adding an "up-loop", I am effectively forming a trap inside
> > the washer that will always contain some water. Or do you
> > dispute that?
>
> Yes I dispute that. What you will have isn't a trap. It's an
> upside down trap. When the dishwasher is done pumping, water
> on the sewer side will run into the sewer.
And the pump will not likely be able to push ALL the water over the top
of the loop, so when it turns off, the water that was trying to make it
up the rising part of the loop will fall back into the pump and the
drain reservior, as happens with conventional under-counter
installations. That water will form a block, preventing a direct air
path between the inside of the washer and the sewer line.
I say that the pump will not likely be able to push all the water up the
loop because ventually the pump will suck air and it won't be able to
push the air and remaining water up the loop and over the top (the pumps
are probably not air-tight).
Take a hose and try to blow some water up over a short loop and out.
You won't be able to, unless you've got a source of compressed air
behind you.
> It will likely siphon the rest of the water from the
> dishwasher side with it.
Siphon action won't pull all the water up and over an up-loop. Some
will fall back. Enough to form a trap.
In fact, according to your theory, even conventional traps should siphon
and empty out if that was the case. But they don't.
> Or the water left in that side could run back into the bottom
> of the dishwasher basin. That leaves the hose empty.
No, the lowest part of the hose wouldn't be empty if the water ran back
downhill into it.
> I can just imagine what other improvisations you have made
> that are illegal.
You should see my furnace...
don &/or Lucille
it could cause a negative pressure and thus suck water out of your pipes
"Sum Guy" <S...@Guy.com> wrote in message news:4C556DDE...@Guy.com...
Ed Pawlowski
"Sum Guy" <S...@Guy.com> wrote in message news:4C559D25...@Guy.com...
> Ed Pawlowski wrote:
>
>> > How else could contaminated water flow back into the water supply
>> > system?
>>
>> Backflow preventers are required by code for lawn sprinkler systems,
>> boilers that use chemicals, pretty much an process that is connected
>> to a municipal water supply.
>
> Does that include installing one at your dish washer or clothes washer?
Some towns are trying to do just that. Every home would have one at the
meter. Seems like a rather expensive cure for a non-problem.
I've never heard of anything like it ever happening, but our society wants
to protect us from every possible scenario, not matter how slime the odds of
it happening.
Pat
"Sum Guy" <S...@Guy.com> wrote in message news:4C54F79D...@Guy.com...
May sometimes and may not sometimes. What happens when you turn on a vent
fan sucking air out of the house?
Pat
> The truth is that even if my (somewhat large city, not town) water
> supply pressure fails (which has never happened in my living memory) I
> garantee you that when it comes back that they'll tell people to run
> their taps for several hours anyways. They'll treat the system as if it
> *is* contaminated.
>
Water systems do fail and loose pressure. When a city makes an announcement
do you suppose every resident hears it?
Dan Lanciani
| I just thought that I wouldn't have been the
| only one here who would have run a dishwasher discharge line directly
| down through the floor below the washer.
As I said, I had a configuration like that for years. When I encountered
a dishwasher that would not work correctly with it, a high loop was not
enough by itself to solve the problem. I believe that if I had inserted
an air admittance valve at the top of the high loop it would have worked,
but it was easier to find a different brand that still supported the
arrangement. That gave me a whole dishwasher life cycle to adjust the
plumbing to the current expectation.
Dan Lanciani
ddl@danlan.*com
Twayne
Pat <dan...@online.mac> typed:
Here's a novel approach: RTFM! It even explains the siphoning action and why
it happens in 99% of the cases.
Sum Guy
> If there was a fire and the fire truck hooked up to a hydrant close
Did you have to full-quote me, just to add that ridiculous scenario?
Sum Guy
> Water systems do fail and loose pressure. When a city makes an
> announcement do you suppose every resident hears it?
When they've lost water pressure, and they're glued to the (TV, radio,
newspaper, etc), then sure they're going to catch such an announcement.
It will be big news. Some sort of catastrophe would have caused it.
tra...@optonline.net
Just tell us one thing smart guy. What does the plumbing code say
about what you are doing? What would any home inspector say when he
spotted a dishwasher or washing machine that was tied directly into
the sewer with no trap?
And if you're so smart, and know so much about what can or can't pass
through any dishwasher pumpout system, why are you here asking about
high loops?
Sum Guy
> Just tell us one thing smart guy. What does the plumbing code say
> about what you are doing?
Building codes are based on engineering principles.
We are discussing the fluid engineering principles of dishwasher
drainage.
What we theorize about what is needed for the correct and safe operation
of a dishwasher drain system should be (but may not be) described in the
local building code.
As far as I can tell, this is a copy of the building code for my
jurisdiction:
http://www.hastingshighlands.ca/upload/newdocuments/Building%20Code%202007.pdf
It does not specify if a trap or air gap or air break is needed for a
domestic dishwasher.
This thread:
http://www.inspectionnews.net/home_inspection/plumbing-system-home-inspection-commercial-inspection/
20168-dishwasher-directly-into-trap-crawlspace.html
(re-assemble the long line as necessary)
has a post that says this:
-------------
Here is what the NC plumbing code says -
802.1.6 Domestic dishwashing machines.
Domestic dishwashing machines shall discharge indirectly through an air
gap or air break into a standpipe or waste receptor in accordance with
Section 802.2,
--------------
An air gap (or air break) is presumably formed by an up-loop in the
drain line. I believe this is an acknowledgement that such an
arrangement would always lead to some water sitting in the dishwasher
basin and pump, effectively forming it's own trap.
> What would any home inspector say when he spotted a dishwasher or
> washing machine that was tied directly into the sewer with no
> trap?
Again, any appliance that has it's own pump may require that it's
discharge line rise to some level relative to the top of the device
before being connected to a drain pipe or drain stack. I'm not aware
that washing machines need their own trap (if installed remote from a
sink) and I've never installed the pumbing for a washing machine.
And besides, as a home-owner, I don't have to know or follow the code
for things that don't need a permit.
> And if you're so smart,
It's not a question of being smart. If you understand that the plumbing
code is trying to enforce a certain engineering principle (that there
should be no direct air connection between the sewer air and household
air) then we can theorize how such a connection does (or doesn't) happen
when considering a given dishwasher drain configuration.
Since I'm NOT smelling sewer gas in my kitchen or in my dishwasher, I
think we can move off this tangent and get back to my original question,
which is:
Do dishwashers depend on their discharge line running up from the drain
pump and forming an up-loop before falling down to make a connection to
a drain line? Do they depend on this arrangement to prevent fill water
from draining unintentionally from the machine?
FatterDumber& Happier Moe
I vote yes.
Roy
> trad...@optonline.net wrote:
> > Just tell us one thing smart guy. What does the plumbing code say
> > about what you are doing?
>
> Building codes are based on engineering principles.
>
> We are discussing the fluid engineering principles of dishwasher
> drainage.
>
> What we theorize about what is needed for the correct and safe operation
> of a dishwasher drain system should be (but may not be) described in the
> local building code.
>
> As far as I can tell, this is a copy of the building code for my
> jurisdiction:
>
>
> It does not specify if a trap or air gap or air break is needed for a
> domestic dishwasher.
>
> This thread:
>
==
If you don't set up the dishwasher drain in a similar manner as
washing machines require, then we can assume that you don't care to do
the installation to code specifications and are potentially
endangering your health and that of others in your household.
Stubbornness on your part may result in unexpected circumstances where
the local authority could hold you liable for damages and extract a
monetary penalty.
==
Sum Guy
> > Do dishwashers depend on their discharge line running up from
> > the drain pump and forming an up-loop before falling down to
> > make a connection to a drain line? Do they depend on this
> > arrangement to prevent fill water from draining unintentionally
> > from the machine?
>
> If you don't set up the dishwasher drain in a similar manner as
> washing machines require, then we can assume that you don't
> care to do the installation to code specifications
Tbat is a *non-answer*.
I want to know if the correct mechanical (hydraulic) operation of a
dishwasher requires a certain way to plumb the discharge line.
You keep wanting to talk about code. Fuck the code.
The code doesn't speak to the plumbing requirements of the device in
question.
I posted a link to the code of my jurisdiction. To my reading, it
doesn't talk about how to plumb the discharge line of a dishwasher.
So stop pedantically talking about code and put your engineering hat on
and consider the device in question and it's engineering requirements.
If you're incapable or unwilling to do that, then just say so, and this
conversation is over.
Pat
> Do dishwashers depend on their discharge line running up from the drain
> pump and forming an up-loop before falling down to make a connection to
> a drain line? Do they depend on this arrangement to prevent fill water
> from draining unintentionally from the machine?
No. In a normal installation the drain for the sink is above the water
level in the dishwasher so the machine will not drain in this manner. The
loop negates the need for an air gap. However in your case the loop would
probably help prevent such drainage. Your installation dropping thru the
floor into the basement may well create a strong siphon action preventing
the loop from functioning as it should. An air gap may be required to break
the siphon. A trap and vent is needed in the basement. A vent can be
created using a one way air valve so the vent does not have to extended thru
the roof.
Roy
==
Okay, when I bought this old house there was no provision to drain an
automatic washing machine properly. I drilled a hole through the floor
for a standpipe following the directions from the machine manual for
its height. The black poly standpipe went through the floor and into a
trap which was attached to about a six foot horizontal pipe with a bit
of a drop which attached to the main vertical sewer main using the
proper fittings. All of this was held up by straps which were
attached to floor joists in a number of spots. Of course the vertical
stand pipe was attached to a wall as well with the proper strapping to
prevent it from wobbling around. All connections were roughened and
the proper adhesive used to ensure a tight leak-proof seal.
Since you are using a "portable" dishwasher much like the one I have
here but no longer use...the drain is probably incorporated with the
filling connection, right? This small drain hose could be disassembled
and routed to a similar standpipe with the same setup as I described
for my washer setup.
When your dishwasher drained, it would pump the water down the pipe
which would be as high as the top of your dishwasher (or close to that
height). You would have the protection of the trap in the basement
preventing sewer gas from rising to the dishwasher level and an air
gap in the top of the standpipe as well which would prevent siphoning.
Draining from the bottom as you proposed could easily cause problems
in my estimation.
You would probably need an extension to the present drain hose with a
simple adaptor (any hardware or plumbing shop could supply), as you
wouldn't want it to fall out but it should go into the standpipe for
three or four inches anyway.
I still say, take a rough drawing to a plumbing shop and get their
advice. Most plumbers will give SOME tips without charging for it or
getting annoyed. Some will even come out and give you a free estimate
for the renovation project should you find it too daunting.
Happy adapting...over and out.
===
don &/or Lucille
Roy
wrote:
> Ridiculous?
Care to elaborate?
==
Sum Guy
loop up inside the back of the dishwasher, the washer now operates much
better - more or less correctly when it comes to maintaining the fill or
wash-water during wash cycles.
Something else that was happening (before the loop was added) was that
the motor would make a loud squeeling noise at the end of every drain
cycle - probably caused by a complete evacuation of water from the
washer basin. This noise doesn't happen any more, presumably because
the discharge pump can't push ALL the water up and over the loop during
the drain cycle.
So I would conclude that dish washers needs the drain hose to rise to
some level above the level of the discharge outlet in order to prevent
fill or wash water from draining out of the basin during wash cycles
because the discharge line is not really fully sealed off from the tub
basin drain.
This arrangement of having the drain line rise to some level (1 foot? 2
feet?) relative to the bottom of the washer is normally accomplished by
plumbing the line into a nearby sink drain line, which are normally set
high up under the sink. Many people think this is necessary for the
washer drain line to be connected before the sink's own trap, but it's
clear that the washer's drain hose will form it's own trap either in or
slightly below the drain-hose outlet.
But I've found that even that trap is not needed (from a sewer gas POV)
because there isin't enough of an open path between the sewer line and
the inside of the washer compartment to allow for sewer gas to enter the
washer very easily.
Ed Pawlowski
"Sum Guy" <S...@Guy.com> wrote in message news:4C62A906...@Guy.com...
> After adding an extra 4-foot section of drain hose to form an inverted U
> loop up inside the back of the dishwasher, the washer now operates much
> better - more or less correctly when it comes to maintaining the fill or
> wash-water during wash cycles.
>
Thanks for clearing that up
Roy
==
I said it before and I will say it again...put a trap on the drain
just below the floor level. cheap insurance and not much extra work.
==
tra...@optonline.net
>
> - Show quoted text -
He clearly doesn't want to listen to that message or follow basic
plumbing code. And I'd also point out that he still hasn't gotten
the message that the drain line in a normal installation installation
isn't supposed to go directly to the sink drain plumbing. It's
supposed to have a high loop, taking the discharge hose up to the
bottom of the countertop to prevent waste from flowing unoticed back
into the dishwasher from a partially blocked drain.
Roy
==
Yep, he is a stubborn one...I hope he likes dishes splattered with raw
sewage. It can happen.
==
Sum Guy
> I said it before and I will say it again...put a trap on the drain
> just below the floor level. cheap insurance and not much extra
> work.
Cheap insurance - for what?
What am I insuring when I put in a trap for a dish washer?
Haven't I already said that there are no sewer gasses entering my
dishwasher as-is?
Haven't I already said that the vent-stack going through my roof
presents an ultra-low resistance path for sewer gasses compared to the
pump mechanism of my dish washer?
Or are you too dense to comprehend the physics at work here?
Sum Guy
> > I said it before and I will say it again...put a trap on the
> > drain just below the floor level.
That actually wouldn't have solved the problem of water draining out of
the washer when it wasn't supposed to. A rising loop inside the washer
was needed to solve that problem.
> He clearly doesn't want to listen to that message or follow basic
> plumbing code.
And you are showing how ignorant you are of understanding basic
hydraulic principles.
A dish washer isin't a sink or a toilet. Maybe you don't understand why
those fixtures need a trap. And you certainly don't understand how a
trap is formed by the washer's drain hose when it's arranged as a simple
rising loop or inverted U.
> And I'd also point out that he still hasn't gotten the message
> that the drain line in a normal installation installation isn't
> supposed to go directly to the sink drain plumbing. It's supposed
> to have a high loop, taking the discharge hose up to the bottom
> of the countertop to prevent waste from flowing unoticed back
> into the dishwasher from a partially blocked drain.
And you continue to fail to realize that I do not have a situation where
a nearby sink drain is competing with the dishwasher as far as draining
is concerned.
If I don't want water in my sink to flow into my dishwasher when the
sink is draining, then a high-loop for the dishwasher should prevent
that. But when there IS NO SINK involved, then the high loop would also
not be needed. Except that the washer needs the high loop for ANOTHER
REASON - to prevent wash water from draining out the bottom of the tub
during the wash cycle.
Sum Guy
> Yep, he is a stubborn one...I hope he likes dishes splattered with
> raw sewage. It can happen.
I challenge you to explain how.
How sad it is that you think that a simple trap can prevent a sewage
backup into an upstream fixture, or even that that's what a trap is
for. Your knowledge of plumbing hydraulics and physics is pathetic.
Roy
==
Plug up your vent pipe with an accumulation of ice or snow or a bird's
nest and see where your sewer gas will go. Do sewer gases only go in
one direction? When the sewer gasses get to your drain pipe do they
just rush by and not enter? There is nothing stopping them, right? Why
do you not want to "build to code"? Don't you believe what plumbers
have said about your "amateurish" plumbing job? I excelled in physics,
did you even study it at all?
==
tra...@optonline.net
> trad...@optonline.net unnecessarily full-quoted:
>
> > > I said it before and I will say it again...put a trap on the
> > > drain just below the floor level.
>
> That actually wouldn't have solved the problem of water draining out of
> the washer when it wasn't supposed to. A rising loop inside the washer
> was needed to solve that problem.
>
> > He clearly doesn't want to listen to that message or follow basic
> > plumbing code.
>
> And you are showing how ignorant you are of understanding basic
> hydraulic principles.
Having a degree in engineering, I understand hydraulic principles
quite well. Apparently you don't because you are the one that came
here asking why your dishwasher installation that is in violation of
plumbing code and practice doesn't work.
>
> A dish washer isin't a sink or a toilet. Maybe you don't understand why
> those fixtures need a trap. And you certainly don't understand how a
> trap is formed by the washer's drain hose when it's arranged as a simple
> rising loop or inverted U.
You came here asking how the pump out system in your dishwasher works,
without even identifying what make or model it was. Only an imbecile
would think every make from Bosch to Kitchenaid all share the same
design and have had the same pump-out design over the last 20 years.
I understand that a high loop was never intended to serve as a trap.
That's because the "trap" isn't one at all. It's UPSIDE DOWN. You
do understand the concept of gravity, no? Water on the side
connected to the waste system will empty. What happens on the
dishwasher side is anyone's guess unless you fully understand the
design of all dishwashers. You obvioulsy don't even understand the
design of yours, because you came here asking about it. Now you want
us to believe that the dishwasher side of the high loop will function
as an upside down trap. No one here knows what multiple paths there
may or may not be in the pump system of your dishwasher that might
leave the dishwasher side of the high loop empty and allow a path for
sewer gas to enter. Who says the hose stays full of water or where
the water may wind up in the dishwasher once it shuts off? Yes, in
some dishwashers the hose may stay full. Apparently relying on that
warm fuzzy feeling to keep sewer gases out of your dishwasher and
house is enough for you.
>
> > And I'd also point out that he still hasn't gotten the message
> > that the drain line in a normal installation installation isn't
> > supposed to go directly to the sink drain plumbing. It's supposed
> > to have a high loop, taking the discharge hose up to the bottom
> > of the countertop to prevent waste from flowing unoticed back
> > into the dishwasher from a partially blocked drain.
>
> And you continue to fail to realize that I do not have a situation where
> a nearby sink drain is competing with the dishwasher as far as draining
> is concerned.
I and it seems just about everyone else here understands exactly what
you are doing. You are broadly proposing that all dishwashers do not
need a proper trap on the waste system based on pure speculation,
without even knowing the internal plumbing of your own.
>
> If I don't want water in my sink to flow into my dishwasher when the
> sink is draining, then a high-loop for the dishwasher should prevent
> that. But when there IS NO SINK involved, then the high loop would also
> not be needed. Except that the washer needs the high loop for ANOTHER
> REASON - to prevent wash water from draining out the bottom of the tub
> during the wash cycle.
Again, you are clueless about how exactly the plumbing inside your
dishwasher is laid out and whether in fact it can be relied upon to
always form a seal against sewer gases. Why don't you call up you
local plumbing inspector and ask him the simple question of whether or
not a real trap is required when you install a dishwasher or clothes
washer, etc. Everyone else here knows the answer. So stop saying
"It ain't a sink or toilet." Because last time I checked a waste
system trap is ALWAYS used on dishwashers and clothes washers. Are
you just too cheap or too pig-headed to do it right?
Roy
==
Oh...Oh...Sum Guy has gone silent...wonder if the sewer gas got to
him.
==