Central Air Conditioning - DIY?
Paul Coty
our home. We have hot water radiators so we'll need to install ducts for
the AC. When I think about the cost involved, I have to wonder if there's a
portion of the installation I could tackle myself. Installing the duct work
and blower in the attic can't be all that difficult. I'm thinking I could
do that part of the job with an AC contractor installing the outside
condenser and making the connections to the blower. I'd need an electrician
to wire it anyway.
Has anyone had any experience installing central AC? Were you able to find
a contractor willing to have the homeowner do part of the work? Are the
manufacturer's warranties still in effect if the contractor does not do the
entire installation? Any comments would be appreciated.
Thanks
Joe
and blower in the attic can't be all that difficult. >>
Wrong! Do you have any experience in sheet metal work? Duct work is a lot more
involved than buying some prefab skins at the Borg and snapping them together.
Do you have a set of plans, specs, permits? If not, best restrict your help to
carrying the heavy stuff upstairs for the techs on the job. Much ductwork will
be prefabbed at a sheet metal shop, so maybe you could make yourself useful
trucking it to the site for them. Better yet, it will be hot upstairs, so stand
by with refreshments as needed from time to time. Watch how the work proceeds
and ask questions. You'll find it is a craft that deserves respect. Enjoy.
Joe
Garry Wiegand
><< Installing the duct work
>and blower in the attic can't be all that difficult. >>
>
>Wrong! Do you have any experience in sheet metal work? Duct work is a lot more
>involved than buying some prefab skins at the Borg and snapping them together.
>Do you have a set of plans, specs, permits?
Mine was done all with flexible tubes, except for the main distribution
manifold. The main manifold and the other bits and pieces appeared to be off
the shelf. Are the flex tubes an unacceptable way of doing ductwork?
Garry
Chris Schmelzer
Garry Wiegand <gne...@ithaca.com> wrote:
>
> Mine was done all with flexible tubes, except for the main distribution
> manifold. The main manifold and the other bits and pieces appeared to be off
> the shelf. Are the flex tubes an unacceptable way of doing ductwork?
>
> Garry
My condo as well and they ARE unacceptable in anything but very short
runs-very high friction loss over any significant distance..
cbhvac
"Paul Coty" <pco...@comcast.net> wrote in message
news:i6tU8.513170$Gs.35...@bin5.nnrp.aus1.giganews.com...
> We're planning to install central air conditioning in the second floor of
> our home.
Oh boy...
> We have hot water radiators so we'll need to install ducts for
> the AC. When I think about the cost involved, I have to wonder if there's
a
> portion of the installation I could tackle myself.
In all seriousness..yes. Picking the phone up to call the installers...
> Installing the duct work
> and blower in the attic can't be all that difficult.
NAH....not at all...thats why there are classes on Manual D calculations
that some guys take 2 and 3 times and still dont get it..
Ductwork...probably the single most important issue on your comfort, next to
a properly sized unit.
>I'm thinking I could
> do that part of the job with an AC contractor installing the outside
> condenser and making the connections to the blower.
Not a one I know, including myself, will touch it. Just so you know, in many
states, its illegal for the homeowner to install ductwork.
In all seriousness...you are better off forgetting this idea...you will not
save much, if any....if you were thinking of getting the duct at Home
Depot....LOL...you really are not going to save anything...by the time you
pay their prices..for that crap, and the duct straps, and the boots, and the
mastic, and the tape, and the strapping...the installers could have bought
it all 3X over and still had some left over....
> I'd need an electrician
> to wire it anyway.
Yes..thats a basic fact. Here, the installers of the AC units can not make
the final connection...an electrician has to do it.
> Has anyone had any experience installing central AC?
Yes..LOL
Just put in 2 units this weekend...got pics if you wanna see..:)
Working on finishing up the ductwork and install on 10 tons worth, and gonna
add another 7 1/2 tons for a resturant.
> Were you able to find
> a contractor willing to have the homeowner do part of the work?
If the homeowner does the work here...we walk...its the law. Permits must be
pulled, inspections made, and plans must be submitted. In a case like yours,
A manual D and J must be done, the specs run, printed, and submitted for
approval. Its also illegal for a homeowner to run duct here without a
pipefitters licience.
> Are the
> manufacturer's warranties still in effect if the contractor does not do
the
> entire installation?
Depends. We just had a discussion in the other group about this..and in many
cases..no. Goodman...as cheap as they are, will not honor a warranty in a
case like this. Incorrect duct sizing, materials, and design can create many
issues, and you have one of the worst going on now as is...a second floor
unit...the duct and design has to be perfect, or else you are going to be
sorry...seriously.
Peter Parker
Richard <n...@mail.com> wrote:
>Sounds like we found an HVAC dude who's upset you might cut in to his business
>once you find out how easy it really is......
Once you have the right tools and experience almost anything can be done
yourself. I live in a home that was built by swedish imigrants back in 1953.
This house was appraised as very good built, better than conventional building.
No ticky-tacky particle board roof and walls. No cracks in the plaster and
a full concrete block basement foundation w/ outside access, red oak hardwood
floors, full attic, breezeway, 2+ car garage etc. Lots of red tape has come
along to "keep people safe" and their wallets lite with all the licensing
mumbo jumbo. You can get an EPA refrigerant license for $40 on the Internet.
>It's no more difficult that doing your own plumbing, electrical, framing - or
>other job that pros receive training in - then claim it's impossible to do
>without that 'special training'.
Amen. :)
>If you really want to have a pro teach you how - find an entry level job for a
>guy doing installs in your area - there should be several hiring this time of
>year. Take a week of vacation from your current job and go work for this guy.
>You'll learn all you need to in that week - and get a little paycheck to boot.
You can also do this on the weekend since many "installations" have been known
to be "under the table" if you know what I mean. These guys are not Saints
and they might even have Priest-like qualities so watch you kids. :)
>I know someone who did this so they could learn how to vinyl side their house.
>He saved over $4000 in labor costs and did the job in about 2 weeks. Can't
>argue with that.
Very good and you can't argue with what. Just think that's after taxes money.
--
nos...@zero.com
Replace nospam with jetta to reply via e-mail
Vox Humana
"Peter Parker" <nos...@zero.com> wrote in message
news:3d230...@nntp2.nac.net...
> In article <snv5iuceo35o8lkko...@4ax.com>,
> Richard <n...@mail.com> wrote:
> >Sounds like we found an HVAC dude who's upset you might cut in to his
business
> >once you find out how easy it really is......
>
> Once you have the right tools and experience almost anything can be done
> yourself. I live in a home that was built by swedish imigrants back in
1953.
> This house was appraised as very good built, better than conventional
building.
> No ticky-tacky particle board roof and walls.
Did particle board even exist in 1953?.
Eric Lee Green
>> Were you able to find
>> a contractor willing to have the homeowner do part of the work?
>
> If the homeowner does the work here...we walk...its the law. Permits must be
> pulled, inspections made, and plans must be submitted. In a case like yours,
> A manual D and J must be done, the specs run, printed, and submitted for
> approval. Its also illegal for a homeowner to run duct here without a
> pipefitters licience.
That is not true here in Arizona, we don't have any unions protecting
HVAC people from competition via getting such laws passed. Reminds me
of a city I once lived in where the electrician's union got a law
passed saying that only a licensed electrician could do electrical
work. A guy with a degree in electrical engineering, who designed
high-voltage systems for a living, had to hire an electrician to install
a wall socket! What a joke.
I will note that a Manual J is not rocket science. There are even
programs you can buy off the Internet that will do the equivalent of a
Manual J for you. Here in the Phoenix area, you do have to get a
permit to run the ductwork, but the printout from one of those
programs and a rough sketch would be plenty of documentation for our
local building department, which is fairly do-it-yourselfer friendly.
On the other hand, it's not worth it. Ductwork is the cheapest part of
an install, at least if you're talking about a single-level with an
attic, or a dual-level with an attic and a basement, where you have
easy access to roofs and floors. While I enjoy watching HVAC people's
knees jerk every time someone suggests that their precious profession
isn't exactly rocket science (the thread on Home Depot selling HVAC
stuff was *PRICELESS*, I've never seen so many dinosaurs in one place
fretting about competition from mammals!), there are some things that
just aren't worth trying to DIY. Given the problems it would cause
with dealing with the HVAC people, that's especially true with trying
to do part of an A/C install.
--
Eric Lee Green GnuPG public key at http://badtux.org/eric/eric.gpg
mailto:er...@badtux.org Web: http://www.badtux.org/eric
Peter Parker
Probably not from the look of my neighbors houses. They did experiment in
steel framed "Bethlehem steel" pre-fabs back then in this area.
:)
Dan O.
Eric Lee Green wrote in message ...
>
>Reminds me
>of a city I once lived in where the electrician's union got a law
>passed saying that only a licensed electrician could do electrical
>work. A guy with a degree in electrical engineering, who designed
>high-voltage systems for a living, had to hire an electrician to install
>a wall socket! What a joke.
That reminds me of all the times we've had to correct problems with appliances
that engineers and even electricians caused by typing to fix an appliance them
self. Just because they can design a hydro grid or install a 200 amp service
doesn't mean they know how to fix a washing machine.
JMO
Dan O.
Vox Humana
I've seen a few of these houses - small porcelain coated steel houses built
in the post war period. I believe they were called "Lustron" houses in the
I grew up in.
Eric Lee Green
> Eric Lee Green wrote in message ...
>>Reminds me
>>of a city I once lived in where the electrician's union got a law
>>passed saying that only a licensed electrician could do electrical
>>work. A guy with a degree in electrical engineering, who designed
>>high-voltage systems for a living, had to hire an electrician to install
>>a wall socket! What a joke.
> That reminds me of all the times we've had to correct problems with
> appliances
An appliance is not an electrical circuit, though it does contain a few.
> self. Just because they can design a hydro grid or install a 200 amp service
> doesn't mean they know how to fix a washing machine.
Agreed. But we're talking about how certain unions have gotten laws
passed in certain areas of the country giving them a legal monopoly on
conducting certain kinds of work even on a do-it-yourself basis. A
homeowner may also be an engineer, after all. Or even a former
electrician, for that matter, who has moved on to another
profession. As long as the work meets code (and I *DO* agree with the
notion of making these guys take out a permit and having their work
inspected by the city codes guys), who the hell cares who did the
work?
--
Eric Lee Green GnuPG public key at http://badtux.org/eric/eric.gpg
mailto:er...@badtux.org Web: http://www.badtux.org/eric
BadTux News: http://badtux.org
Joseph Meehan
The installation is 90% of the job as far as how well the system will work.
I did one myself in a 100+ year old home. It had no central heat when I
started and I added heat and A/C. That was about 35 years ago. I was
really lucky. I did my homework and I made some really good guesses and it
worked really well. However I stress that I was lucky. I was also very
short of money and that was the only way I was going to get AC.
--
Joseph E. Meehan
26 + 6 = 1 It's Irish Math
"Paul Coty" <pco...@comcast.net> wrote in message
news:i6tU8.513170$Gs.35...@bin5.nnrp.aus1.giganews.com...
Edwin Pawlowski
"cbhvac" <in...@carolinabreezehvac.com> wrote in message
>
> Its also illegal for a homeowner to run duct here without a
> pipefitters licience.
I know that duct takes some skill to get it right, but what does pipe
fitting have to do with duct work? I fail to see the connection between
running a 24" schedule 80 pipe to hold 1000 psi fluid and sheetmetal to
direct cold air.
Some states have crazy licensing laws of the trades anyway. Only thing
worse is some of the local permitting processes.
Ed
e...@snet.net
http://pages.cthome.net/edhome
Big Balls Willie
"Peter Parker" <nos...@zero.com> wrote
>>>You can get an EPA refrigerant license for $40 on the Internet.
I don't think so. For a car maybe, but that's about it.
You can prove me wrong, but I'll have to see the web site you are talking
about.
Big Balls Willie
"Vox Humana" <vhu...@hotmail.com> wrote
> I've seen a few of these houses - small porcelain coated steel houses
built
> in the post war period. I believe they were called "Lustron" houses in
the
> I grew up in.
They have some on the Quantico Marine base that they are going to try and
sell to the public. They are going to buils some new houses and feel that
they shouldn't just bulldoze them. They ARE kind of interesting houses.....
Vox Humana
"Big Balls Willie" <a...@ack.ack> wrote in message
news:ag08up$4vj$1...@bob.news.rcn.net...
I haven't seen the interiors. Are they conventional or are they also steel
panels?
Big Balls Willie
up with all kinds of sites, but this one has some pictures:
http://www.mikedust.com/fascinatum/2002/fascinatum-013002.html
"Vox Humana" <vhu...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:_YNU8.9985$CJ2.1...@twister.neo.rr.com...
Garry Wiegand
>As long as the work meets code (and I *DO* agree with the
>notion of making these guys take out a permit and having their work
>inspected by the city codes guys), who the hell cares who did the
>work?
And even if a professional does do the work... I'm discovering in my new
house, supposedly professionally wired, there was kind of a laid-back
attitude on the part of the electrician about connecting all the ground
wires.
When I do it myself, there may be big stupid mistakes, but at least there
won't be the stuff that results from small bits of laziness.
Garry
Garry Wiegand
>Did particle board even exist in 1953?.
We inherited a rec-room building that was finished out with a low-density
particle-board equivalent on the inside. It was built in 1941 or 1942. When
it got old the particle board started doing bad stuff. Then the whole
building (2-story) fell down, in a gradual sort of way, so the behaviour of
the particle board became kinda moot.
And if you don't believe me... remember that thin stuff, dark brown and shiny
on one side, lighter brown and corrugated on the back? That's a particle
board, and it's been around for-ev-er.
yours,
Garry
Garry
HvacTech2
Hi Edwin, hope you are having a nice day
On 03-Jul-02 At About 18:31:37, Edwin Pawlowski wrote to All
Subject: Re: Central Air Conditioning - DIY?
EP> From: "Edwin Pawlowski" <e...@snet.net>
EP> "cbhvac" <in...@carolinabreezehvac.com> wrote in message
>> Its also illegal for a homeowner to run duct here without a
>> pipefitters licience.
EP> I know that duct takes some skill to get it right, but what does pipe
EP> fitting have to do with duct work? I fail to see the connection
EP> between running a 24" schedule 80 pipe to hold 1000 psi fluid and
EP> sheetmetal to direct cold air.
EP> Some states have crazy licensing laws of the trades anyway. Only
EP> thing worse is some of the local permitting processes. Ed
Living in CT Ed you should know that we also have a sheet metal license
requirement. you need this license to do sheet metal.
-=> HvacTech2 <=-
.. "I wrote a few children's books... Not on purpose." - s.w.
___ TagDude 0.92á+[DM]
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spam protection measure, Please remove the 33 to send e-mail
David Starr
wrote:
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- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
Professional Shop Rat: 37 1/2 years in a GM plant.
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
Edwin Pawlowski
"HvacTech2" <dmurp...@snet.net> wrote in message
>
> Living in CT Ed you should know that we also have a sheet metal license
> requirement. you need this license to do sheet metal.
I made an inverted cone to protect the bird feeder. Am I going to get
arrested?
I can understand the license as it is easy to screw up a duct, but I just
don't understand the pipefitters deal. Just seem to me the skills are
different and you can do sheet metal work all your life and never have to
handle a pipe fitting.
Ed
e...@snet.net
http://pages.cthome.net/edhome
Big Balls Willie
"Edwin Pawlowski" <e...@snet.net> wrote
>
> I made an inverted cone to protect the bird feeder. Am I going to get
> arrested?
The Squirrel Police will be visiting you soon!
I think the laws/rules/codes have a lot to do with local politics. I agree
that only licensed people should be doing work (and doing it properly), but
sometimes some of the rules seem silly......
cbhvac
> Richard <n...@mail.com> wrote:
> >Sounds like we found an HVAC dude who's upset you might cut in to his
business
> >once you find out how easy it really is......
>
> Once you have the right tools and experience almost anything can be done
> yourself. I live in a home that was built by swedish imigrants back in
1953.
> This house was appraised as very good built, better than conventional
building.
> No ticky-tacky particle board roof and walls. No cracks in the plaster and
> a full concrete block basement foundation w/ outside access, red oak
hardwood
> floors, full attic, breezeway, 2+ car garage etc. Lots of red tape has
come
> along to "keep people safe" and their wallets lite with all the licensing
> mumbo jumbo. You can get an EPA refrigerant license for $40 on the
Internet.
Thats a EPA 609, and you have to have a 608, and THAT is a proctor
exam....no..you CANT get the correct licience on the
internet...sorry...wrong.
If you are going to give information, at least get it right. You cannont
work on home central air units with a 609.
>
> >It's no more difficult that doing your own plumbing, electrical,
framing - or
> >other job that pros receive training in - then claim it's impossible to
do
> >without that 'special training'.
>
> Amen. :)
Installing it is the easy part...go ahead...set it up correctly..:)
cbhvac
"Edwin Pawlowski" <e...@snet.net> wrote in message
news:tPLU8.1463$RL1.28...@newssvr10.news.prodigy.com...
>
> "cbhvac" <in...@carolinabreezehvac.com> wrote in message
>
> >
> > Its also illegal for a homeowner to run duct here without a
> > pipefitters licience.
>
> I know that duct takes some skill to get it right, but what does pipe
> fitting have to do with duct work? I fail to see the connection between
> running a 24" schedule 80 pipe to hold 1000 psi fluid and sheetmetal to
> direct cold air.
You know..I asked the same thing..:)
ITs a bit different here..and each state is different. Your next line sums
it all up real nice actually :)
However, let me throw this in, since 90% at LEAST of the homegrown varity
duct jobs we have seen are wrong, and create problems..
There is a method, called manual D, that insures correct airflow for the
unit that is being installed...it takes many factors into consideration, and
depending on the type, length, and size of the work, you either have a
correctly working system, or you dont. Airflow is a big factor in a homes
comfort level, and it just seems silly to me that anyone that is going to
spend $100,000 on a home, is going to cut corners on the one thing that will
create a comfortable enviroment in the home to save $500....and then spend
$2000 getting someone to come in after they find out its all wrong, and get
it repaired. Thats all...my entire point is that we fix every day it seems,
homegrown installs, or repairs, and they all say the same thing...it would
have been cheaper to call you to begin with.
Now...I dont know what everyone charges..all I know is how I do things...and
I DO know I have lost many installs for being the cheap guy on the quote
list...and I have a dedicated bunch of real estate companies, and builders
that know my work is correct. I personally think I have a long way to go
with the new code changes that are taking place, (International Codes going
into effect) and the new systems coming out.
Sure...anyone can do this, but lets make it clear, everyone wont do it
right, and that goes for many of the so called pros out there too...but the
ones you meet in here and in alt.hvac all are there to strive for the same
thing..proper installs, proper trade operation...contrary to popular belief,
we are not all a buch of money grubbin scabs that hope your stuff fails and
let me make another thing clear again...I dont worry about loosing one dime
in here...this forum is not about making money...if it was, I would not
bother taking the time to post...
cbhvac
"Richard" <n...@mail.com> wrote in message
news:snv5iuceo35o8lkko...@4ax.com...
> Sounds like we found an HVAC dude who's upset you might cut in to his
business
> once you find out how easy it really is......
Nope...actually someone in another state doing his own work, or even down
the streets not going to cut into my trade one bit.
As a matter of fact, enjoy it all while you can. Changes are coming, and
when they hit, you think its hard for some to get units now....:)
If you knew one thing about how we operate, and why we bother posting here,
you would also realize that I dont have a problem with anyone attepting
this, however, the installation is only part of the job....and most people
cant figure superheat, nor do they posess a EPA 608..
>
> It's no more difficult that doing your own plumbing, electrical, framing -
or
> other job that pros receive training in - then claim it's impossible to do
> without that 'special training'.
I am not a framer, but I dont see framers doing manual D, J and/or N's
BEFORE they start on a job...but..they might have something they do have to
do..I dont know..and really dont care..if I am going to build a new home, I
simply call my GC buddy, and he sends a crew out...
Not only am I a tradesman...I support the other trades, I take great pride
in my work, and I am also, surprise, a homeowner..
If a person wants to do a DIY install..have at it..but remember, when it
does not work correctly, and without knowing what correctly is, they will
never know..there is only one person to blame.
>
> If you really want to have a pro teach you how - find an entry level job
for a
> guy doing installs in your area - there should be several hiring this time
of
> year. Take a week of vacation from your current job and go work for this
guy.
> You'll learn all you need to in that week - and get a little paycheck to
boot.
Not really...around here you will fetch tools, and no on hands
training...most companies wont even consider you for an install job unless y
ou have a 608, and at least one semester at the local college in HVAC
design.
>
> I know someone who did this so they could learn how to vinyl side their
house.
> He saved over $4000 in labor costs and did the job in about 2 weeks.
Can't
> argue with that.
Siding installs, and AC setup are two different planets they are so
different.
You cant even begin to compare installing siding to a home to setting a unit
up after its installed...
Edwin Pawlowski
"cbhvac" <in...@carolinabreezehvac.com> wrote in message news:2lZU8.880
>
> it just seems silly to me that anyone that is going to
> spend $100,000 on a home, is going to cut corners on the one thing that
will
> create a comfortable enviroment in the home to save $500....
There are many things that look simple but really are not.
I think some of the problem is this case is that you don't see duct work.
Why should I pay to have someone stick a few pieces of metal together when I
can do it myself and save and you won't see my sloppy work. No matter that
25% of my energy cost is lost, no matter that I'm going to be uncomfortable
for the next 20 years because of wrong sizing. I can save a few bucks on
the ducts and buy a fancy fixture for the dining room and dazzle my friends.
Many years ago I worked for the Nesbitt Company. They made industrial and
commercial heating and AC units. High quality products. One thing I did
learn was that I know enough not to attempt doing it myself. Licensing
aside, I know my limits and there are skilled people that make this stuff
look easy. Let them do it right.
Ed
e...@snet.net
http://pages.cthome.net/edhome
Eric Lee Green
> Many years ago I worked for the Nesbitt Company. They made industrial and
> commercial heating and AC units. High quality products. One thing I did
> learn was that I know enough not to attempt doing it myself. Licensing
> aside, I know my limits and there are skilled people that make this stuff
> look easy. Let them do it right.
I think that's something we can all agree with. I know a fair amount
about air conditioner units. On the other hand, I know I would take
five times longer than a professional to do a professional-type job (I
work *VERY* slowly when doing something unfamiliar, to avoid stupid
mistakes), would waste far more materials to things like bad cuts and
such, and five hours of my time is a lot more expensive than an hour
of a professional's time, so... why?
I might make fun of the dinosaurs nattering about getting a law passed
to make competition from the mammals illegal, but the (original)
dinosaurs did happen to be well adapted for their environment. It
wasn't their fault that their environment changed.
Eric Lee Green
> EP> fitting have to do with duct work? I fail to see the connection
> EP> between running a 24" schedule 80 pipe to hold 1000 psi fluid and
> EP> sheetmetal to direct cold air.
>
> EP> Some states have crazy licensing laws of the trades anyway. Only
> EP> thing worse is some of the local permitting processes. Ed
>
> Living in CT Ed you should know that we also have a sheet metal license
> requirement. you need this license to do sheet metal.
Wow. I'm glad I live here in Arizona rather than in the Socialist
Republic of Connetticut. We require licensing for contractors, but any
legislator with the notion of telling a man he couldn't do sheet metal
work inside his own home would end up like, well, Jeff Groscost (long
story there, but let's just say he got tarred and feathered and rode
out of town on a rail when one of his screwups threatened to bankrupt
the state, and will hold office here in Arizona again sometime between
no way and never... he could run against Bill Clinton in this heavily
Republican state and Bill Clinton would win, that's how Arizona treats
that kind of nonsense from its legislators).
Garry Wiegand
>I think the laws/rules/codes have a lot to do with local politics.
For comparison: how many of you licensed contractors would be in favor of
being required to have a state license to work on your truck? Why don't car
mechanics have to be licensed? Why the large public-welfare-and-safety
difference between working on your own truck and working on your own house?
Politics, as far as I can see, labor unions, lobbying power, and laws that
are cut to fit the common case (the construction industry) and who cares
about the uncommon case (the do-it-yourselfer.)
(I am going through a expensive, slow, painful permitting process right now
for some trivial house work. So I'm cranky.)
Garry
cbhvac
"Garry Wiegand" <gne...@ithaca.com> wrote in message
news:vf09iugahjumejm2h...@4ax.com...
> "Big Balls Willie" <w...@home.now> wrote:
> >I think the laws/rules/codes have a lot to do with local politics.
>
> For comparison: how many of you licensed contractors would be in favor of
> being required to have a state license to work on your truck? Why don't
car
> mechanics have to be licensed? Why the large public-welfare-and-safety
> difference between working on your own truck and working on your own
house?
Its gotten to the point with automotive, that the tools required in some
cases to actually DO the work, prohibit the average guy from doing it...
Rebuilding a Dana 60 for example, correctly, takes one tool for spreading
the case that costs over $700 and you will use it maybe one time.
While there is no state madate for license on automotive work, as in repair,
there are things like ASE testing that help. You STILL have to have an EPA
609 or like to work on the AC systems on R12 units...so...personally, I am
all for it..but then again, I grew up in automotive..and one other thing
that just came to mind...
There are state safety inspections in most areas, where you dont have a
state home safety inspection..there are laws that prohibit one from doing
some things to your car, just like there are for doing, or not doing some
things to your home...
>
> Politics, as far as I can see, labor unions, lobbying power, and laws that
> are cut to fit the common case (the construction industry) and who cares
> about the uncommon case (the do-it-yourselfer.)
Again...the thing that perhaps is not showing in my posts is, that there are
things you have to have to properly install a system....and hell..if a DIY
wants to attempt it...thats FINE...but dammit..:) At least do it
RIGHT....its not got to be pretty...its not got to be perfect in the looks
department, but at least take the time, to research, and size it right, and
do the duct and such right.
Around here, we can not even make the final electrical connection to the
unit...and thats fine, and I understand why..
I also understand why there is an inspection process. Many people do not
think about why most areas want and demand things to the local code.
If you even have the misfortune of buying a home that was hacked to hell,
you will agree, its worth the extra day or two wait to get things inspected
and to code.
>
> (I am going through a expensive, slow, painful permitting process right
now
> for some trivial house work. So I'm cranky.)
I dont know where you live, but here its a $50 fee, submit a set of plans,
and in 48 hours or less, you have approval to start. A rough diagram of the
home, the mods planned, general location of ducts, all sizes to manual D,
and a printed copy of a manual J is all it takes.
Rough in is complete, inspector called, he signs off, and the works
completed. Inspector is called, and unit is tested to comply with
manufactuers specs, and perhaps a superheat reading in front of the
inspector....actually, for the cost involved...$50...you get alot from the
city, or county here.
In the case of a unit swap out...ton for ton, many times you get approval on
the spot...since there is no real work being performed as far as mechanical
codes involved...and most, in the case of a swap out condensor, dont
bother....if the units installed, compressor fails, and the units being
replaced, no permits are needed in this case.
>
> Garry
Eric Lee Green
> There are state safety inspections in most areas, where you dont have a
> state home safety inspection..
Huh? I thought that was why I bought a permit -- to pay for the city
inspector to come out and inspect the safety of my work?!
> there are laws that prohibit one from doing
> some things to your car, just like there are for doing, or not doing some
> things to your home...
There are no laws here in my state (Arizona) for what I can do to my
home. As long as I take out a permit, I can do anything and
everything to my home that is not prohibited by federal law. Frankly,
I wouldn't live in one of those effete back east states where special
interests have bought laws protecting them from competition by
do-it-yourselfers.
> If you even have the misfortune of buying a home that was hacked to hell,
> you will agree, its worth the extra day or two wait to get things inspected
> and to code.
I agree totally. But what does that have to do with making it ILLEGAL
to do whatever the hell you want to do to your own property? It's *MY*
property, not Big Brother's property, dammit. You Back East'ers with
your nanny state and lack of respect for private property rights are
half the problem with this nation, in the opinion of us
Westerners. (Which is why we're always posting recipes for spotted owl
soup to the Internet :-).
cbhvac
"Eric Lee Green" <er...@badtux.org> wrote in message
news:slrnai9q4...@badtux.org...
> In article <6B3V8.2$y5....@eagle.america.net>, cbhvac ruminated:
> > There are state safety inspections in most areas, where you dont have a
> > state home safety inspection..
>
> Huh? I thought that was why I bought a permit -- to pay for the city
> inspector to come out and inspect the safety of my work?!
And to make sure it meets city codes..and no..you cant not just go do
anything to your home..particularly in AZ...been there..Phoenix to be
exact...wifes dad retired there and in Iowa...
>
> > there are laws that prohibit one from doing
> > some things to your car, just like there are for doing, or not doing
some
> > things to your home...
>
> There are no laws here in my state (Arizona) for what I can do to my
> home.
Sure there are...
> As long as I take out a permit, I can do anything and
> everything to my home that is not prohibited by federal law.
Or local code...or what the county says you cant...
Maricopa county for example, has a planning and development department that
can tell you all about it..
http://www.maricopa.gov/planning/permits.asp?type=residential
> Frankly,
> I wouldn't live in one of those effete back east states where special
> interests have bought laws protecting them from competition by
> do-it-yourselfers.
Nor would I...or in one of those west coast states like California, where I
lived for 8 years and had to take out a permit to shit..
>
> > If you even have the misfortune of buying a home that was hacked to
hell,
> > you will agree, its worth the extra day or two wait to get things
inspected
> > and to code.
>
> I agree totally. But what does that have to do with making it ILLEGAL
> to do whatever the hell you want to do to your own property? It's *MY*
> property, not Big Brother's property, dammit. You Back East'ers with
> your nanny state and lack of respect for private property rights are
> half the problem with this nation, in the opinion of us
Ahh...but bubba...where am I from originally?? California, or here in NC? NC
is easy compared to your state, AND the other Western states...
Did you know that I could not even put up an American Flag in my area of
Palm Springs without checking with the city first, and the homeowners
association first?? How about replacing that AC unit or evap cooler on the
roof? Nope..codes changed..got to be on the ground, out of sight
now....wanna build on that hill behind your home that you own?? Nope...cant
build but so high, or so many feet up the hill since your home will destroy
the natural sights...oh..want to build there?? You cant..its got native
trees growing on it..thats not here in NC...thats in Cali...out your
way...you know..you westerners..
> Westerners. (Which is why we're always posting recipes for spotted owl
> soup to the Internet :-).
Good..I have a pretty good one for dolphin as well..:)
You forget...we have guns...Cali outlawed about all of them..
:)
Just for the record..your local code enforcement guys can and will tell you
that you CANT do anything to your home that you want to...
Peter Parker
That's not a good sign for those new particle board, pressed board, woodchip
glued houses. I would rather have a Lustron Home. I think they look cool.
:)
Peter Parker
Right it's for automobile AC. :) BTW, I just read an ad in the local classifieds
that reads:
Air Conditioner Condensers
Total blowout sale. All must go now.
All new. 2 ton though 7 ton and many
sizes in between. Super cheap pricing.
Call now to keep cool. (or to blow
yourself up for the 4th of July :).
Eric Lee Green
> "Eric Lee Green" <er...@badtux.org> wrote in message
> news:slrnai9q4...@badtux.org...
>> In article <6B3V8.2$y5....@eagle.america.net>, cbhvac ruminated:
>> > There are state safety inspections in most areas, where you dont have a
>> > state home safety inspection..
>>
>> Huh? I thought that was why I bought a permit -- to pay for the city
>> inspector to come out and inspect the safety of my work?!
>
> And to make sure it meets city codes..and no..you cant not just go do
> anything to your home..particularly in AZ...been there..Phoenix to be
> exact...wifes dad retired there and in Iowa...
Care to say what I can't do to my house? Looking at the City of Scottsdale
web site it appears I can't put a van on blocks in my front yard, and
I must get a permit to do various types of work on my house, but it's an
older neighborhood without an HOA so there's nothing preventing me from,
say, painting my house pink with blue polka-dots or putting CAT-5 outlets
on every wall for Internet and phone.
>> There are no laws here in my state (Arizona) for what I can do to my
>> home.
>
> Sure there are...
Care to name one? There are some offsets that the local code says I have
to abide by, and I have to take out the permit and do it to code, but
there's nothing stopping me from doing as much electrical, plumbing,
or etc. as I want other than federal law, as long as it abides by code
(i.e., basic safety standards).
> Or local code...or what the county says you cant...
> Maricopa county for example, has a planning and development department that
> can tell you all about it..
> http://www.maricopa.gov/planning/permits.asp?type=residential
I live in Scottsdale.
> Nor would I...or in one of those west coast states like California, where I
> lived for 8 years and had to take out a permit to shit..
> Palm Springs without checking with the city first, and the homeowners
> association first?? How about replacing that AC unit or evap cooler on the
> roof? Nope..codes changed..got to be on the ground, out of sight
> now....wanna build on that hill behind your home that you own?? Nope...cant
> build but so high, or so many feet up the hill since your home will destroy
> the natural sights...oh..want to build there?? You cant..its got native
> trees growing on it..thats not here in NC...thats in Cali...out your
> way...you know..you westerners..
California is not part of the West. We evicted the People's Republic of
California from the West long ago :-).
>> Westerners. (Which is why we're always posting recipes for spotted owl
>> soup to the Internet :-).
>
> Good..I have a pretty good one for dolphin as well..:)
> You forget...we have guns...Cali outlawed about all of them..
We got guns here in Arizona too :-).
> Just for the record..your local code enforcement guys can and will tell you
> that you CANT do anything to your home that you want to...
Yeah right. So if I want to put purple and gold shingles on my house
spelling out "ARIZONA DIAMONDBACKS", and do the work myself, they're
going to tell me I can't do it because I'm not a licensed roofer? I
don't think so! Take out a permit, voila. (City of Scottsdale even
has some "standard" permits for various tasks, you pick one off the
wall, fill in your name and address, follow the directions therein in
order to meet code, voila.)
Dan O.
Eric Lee Green wrote in message ...
>
>Care to say what I can't do to my house? Looking at the City of Scottsdale
>web site it appears I can't put a van on blocks in my front yard, and
>I must get a permit to do various types of work on my house,
In a neighboring city here, you can't hang laundry on a line outside to dry.
How's that for stupidity? You can't park a trailer in the driveway either.
Dan O.
Peter Parker
That is dumb especially living in Arizona. LOL! What a waste of electricity
when you have to run your dryer.
Eric Lee Green
Hmm, Paradise Valley, I presume? (Note to outsiders: Folks in Paradise
Valley don't care about the waste of electricity, houses in Paradise Valley
start at around $750,000 and go upward rapidly).
Edwin Pawlowski
electricity
> when you have to run your dryer.
According to the Doonsbury cartoon a week or so ago, California has about
35000 Homeowners Associations that ban clothes lines. If they want the
neighborhood to look pretty, they can stop the bitching about energy and the
lack of it. I'd rather h ave reasonable electric rates and plenty of it
even if it means I have to look at your undies on the line once in a while.
Ed
e...@snet.net
http://pages.cthome.net/edhome
Vox Humana
"Dan O." <forum@_NO-JUNK_appliance411.com> wrote in message
news:UIkV8.82027$Yt.34...@read1.cgocable.net...
That's pretty standard stuff for planned unit developments. Are you sure
the restrictions are enforced by the municipality or are they covenants and
restrictions written into the deed and enforced by a home owner's
association?
Peter Parker
Eric Lee Green <er...@badtux.org> wrote:
>In article <3d25e...@nntp2.nac.net>, Peter Parker ruminated:
>> In article <UIkV8.82027$Yt.34...@read1.cgocable.net>,
>> Dan O. <forum@_NO-JUNK_appliance411.com> wrote:
>>>Eric Lee Green wrote in message ...
>>>>Care to say what I can't do to my house? Looking at the City of Scottsdale
>>>>web site it appears I can't put a van on blocks in my front yard, and
>>>>I must get a permit to do various types of work on my house,
>>>
>>>In a neighboring city here, you can't hang laundry on a line outside to dry.
>>>How's that for stupidity? You can't park a trailer in the driveway either.
>>
>> That is dumb especially living in Arizona. LOL! What a waste of electricity
>> when you have to run your dryer.
>
>Hmm, Paradise Valley, I presume? (Note to outsiders: Folks in Paradise
>Valley don't care about the waste of electricity, houses in Paradise Valley
>start at around $750,000 and go upward rapidly).
Heh. What about the rolling blackouts? I guess they have those fancy generators
with the auto-transfer system. :)
Peter Parker
There are some pretty nice and compact clothes line systems that are on one
pole and work well. You don't have to travel 50 feet to get your clothes up
and down the clothes lines. :) I too would care less about OPs clothes and
have the electric not have a rolling black out.
Big Balls Willie
"Peter Parker" <nos...@zero.com> wrote
> Right it's for automobile AC.
Yeah. I got that "license" 10 years ago. Paid $20 and they sent you a 20
question test in the mail. Answer the questions and mail it back in with a
check and YOU BE CERTY-FIED!!!!!!
Kinda silly really. I've seen some of those "shade-tree" mechanics dump
"freezone" in until it gets cold, then the guy comes back around a few days
later wanting to know why his compressor locked up on his
hoopty-mobile..........
Eric Lee Green
What rolling blackouts? We have all the electrical capacity here in
Arizona that we'll need for the next 50 years, what with all the
merchant plants coming online that you California nuts and flakes
refused to let be built in your state. Virtually all of them were
licensed under the condition that Arizona gets first shot at any
electricity they generate.
Not that the folks in Paradise Valley would be worried, as you
mention, yeah they'd swiftly install those fancy generators with the
auto-transfer systems if power became a problem:-).
Dan O.
>"Dan O." wrote
>>
>> In a neighboring city here, you can't hang laundry on a line outside to
>> dry.
>> How's that for stupidity? You can't park a trailer in the driveway either.
>>
Vox Humana wrote in message ...
>
>That's pretty standard stuff for planned unit developments. Are you sure
>the restrictions are enforced by the municipality or are they covenants and
>restrictions written into the deed and enforced by a home owner's
>association?
The city in question is full of yuppies and yayas. It's a city wide bylay.
Dan O.
Unknown
>the AC. When I think about the cost involved, I have to wonder if there's a
>and blower in the attic can't be all that difficult. I'm thinking I could
>do that part of the job with an AC contractor installing the outside
>to wire it anyway.
Most pros won't touch it if a homeowner installed it. I have one
friend who did his own duct and told the installer the
compressor/condensor had been removed by a previous owner, he got a
*slightly* lower price. Not enough to make it worth the effort
though.
>Has anyone had any experience installing central AC? Were you able to find
>a contractor willing to have the homeowner do part of the work? Are the
>manufacturer's warranties still in effect if the contractor does not do the
>entire installation? Any comments would be appreciated.
The area to save a little money is in the carpentry work. Open the
walls/floors/ceilings where needed and cover them up yourself. Let
the pros handle the rest.
Personally, I've been tempted to build my own pool. I mean how hard
can it be to dig a hole and fill it with water...? :)
Jeff
BGBevill
>house.
>>He saved over $4000 in labor costs and did the job in about 2 weeks. Can't
>>argue with that.
>
You mean he had to have training to put on vinyl siding?? Oh my....
Eric Lee Green
Heh. Well, y'know, that's just as bad as having to have training to
install a package unit (as is typically installed on the roofs of
older houses here in the Phoenix area). Let's see, haul unit to roof,
install over plenum, wire it in... doh! Funny, I don't see package
units for sale at Home Depot, though I see some swamp coolers there
(here in the Phoenix area).
Note: yes, I know that it typically requires a bit of sheetmetal work
and adjustment of the stand and etc. Gosh darn it, y'know, I got all
these sheet metal tools from when I did auto body work, and nobody
ever tried to make me get certified to do auto body work. (And hey, I
had to *WELD* seams there, none of that sissy TAPE stuff, guys!
I bet you sissy HVAC sheet metal guys wouldn't have the SLIGHTEST idea
what to do with a TIG welder :-).
I suppose this lack of rocket science is why package units went out of
favor for residential work. Well, that and the fact that fussie
California nuts and flakes moved here to the Phoenix area and thought
that looking at a house's bones on the roof was somehow "ugly". Don't
ask me my opinion of the Californication of Phoenix -- those
California nuts and flakes ruined the residential housing market here
by coming here with their cheap-ass slap-me-up construction and using
their California revenue to sell at a loss until they drove the
quality local people out of business or into the high end custom
market. Not to mention that the California nuts and flakes never put
the swamp cooler plenum on the roof or size the ductwork for
evaporative cooling and thus make people use expensive refrigeration
year-round, no wonder California has an energy shortage!