Supplying Water to Toilet from Gravity Feed Tanks

[ernes...@gmail.com]

Hi,
I've installed a large tank in the yard, above the height of my toilet water closet. I'm filling the large tank with water from a sump pump.
Problem is this:
The gravity feed is very low pressure, so the regulator in the toilet water closet doesn't function using the gravity feed supply. However the regulator works fine when using the city supply for water.
Is there anyway to adjust the regulator in the toilet water closet to work with very low pressure water supply?

[DerbyDad03]

Install a pump to increase the pressure?

[gregz]

Why are you using regulator

Greg

[DerbyDad03]

I'm assuming that by "regulator" he means the "fill valve".

It "regulates" the amount of water that goes into the tank.

[nestork]

I think your best bet would be to use a pump to pressurize the water in
a cushion tank (that is, a tank with air trapped in the top of it), and
shut the pump off with a pressure switch.

You'll need a sight glass on the tank to ensure it's not water logged,
and a bleed valve and air vent so that you can recharge it with air if
it ever gets water logged.

'Electrical - Eaton Canada | Pressure Switches'
(http://tinyurl.com/mzbxsfz)

Eaton makes and sells a wide variety of industrial automation controls,
like pressure switches.




--
nestork

[harryagain]

<ernes...@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:8ea75bd2-6661-4087...@googlegroups.com...

Why don't you use a float valve, available to suit all pressures
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Float_valve

[CRNG]

On Mon, 1 Jul 2013 05:50:01 +0200, nestork
<nestork...@diybanter.com> wrote in
<nestork...@diybanter.com> Re Re: Supplying Water to Toilet from
Gravity Feed Tanks:

>I think your best bet would be to use a pump to pressurize the water in
>a cushion tank (that is, a tank with air trapped in the top of it), and
>shut the pump off with a pressure switch.

Indeed. Something like this
<http://www.homedepot.com/p/Flotec-1-2-HP-Shallow-Well-Jet-Pump-Combo-FP410515H/202246487#.UdFcrJHE09o>
--
Web based forums are like subscribing to 10 different newspapers
and having to visit 10 different news stands to pickup each one.
Email list-server groups and USENET are like having all of those
newspapers delivered to your door every morning.

[jamesgang]

I would expect you could find a toilet float valve that works with any pressure. Where are you posting from? The old school float on an arm ought to work. It's going to fill really slowly though.

http://static.ddmcdn.com/gif/toilet-ballcock-assembly.jpg

If you are serious about using alternative water for the toilets I suggest you go ahead and get a pump, a pressure tank, pressure switch, and a check valve. You could use fairly small components if all you are going to use it for is toilets.

[DerbyDad03]

Just curious...

Why would an old fashioned ballcock assembly work with less pressure than one of the more modern float style?

Whether the ball is down or the float is down, shouldn't whatever valve is at the top of the tube be open? I thought the valve was opened mechanically by virtue of the ball/float being in the "down" position. How does the water pressure enter into that?

[hrho...@sbcglobal.net]

On Monday, July 1, 2013 9:15:14 AM UTC-5, DerbyDad03 wrote:
> On Monday, July 1, 2013 9:36:23 AM UTC-4, jamesgang wrote: > On Sunday, June 30, 2013 7:49:42 PM UTC-4, ernes...@gmail.com wrote: > > > Hi, > > > > > > I've installed a large tank in the yard, above the height of my toilet water closet. I'm filling the large tank with water from a sump pump. > > > > > > Problem is this: > > > > > > The gravity feed is very low pressure, so the regulator in the toilet water closet doesn't function using the gravity feed supply. However the regulator works fine when using the city supply for water. > > > > > > Is there anyway to adjust the regulator in the toilet water closet to work with very low pressure water supply? > > > > I would expect you could find a toilet float valve that works with any pressure. Where are you posting from? The old school float on an arm ought to work. It's going to fill really slowly though. > > > > http://static.ddmcdn.com/gif/toilet-ballcock-assembly.jpg > > > > If you are serious about using alternative water for the toilets I suggest you go ahead and get a pump, a pressure tank, pressure switch, and a check valve. You could use fairly small components if all you are going to use it for is toilets. Just curious... Why would an old fashioned ballcock assembly work with less pressure than one of the more modern float style? Whether the ball is down or the float is down, shouldn't whatever valve is at the top of the tube be open? I thought the valve was opened mechanically by virtue of the ball/float being in the "down" position. How does the water pressure enter into that?

That's what I would have thought, but I have never actually tried it with low pressure water.

[nestork]

DerbyDad03;3086695 Wrote:
>
> Why would an old fashioned ballcock assembly work with less pressure
> than one of the more modern float style?
>
> Whether the ball is down or the float is down, shouldn't whatever valve
> is at the top of the tube be open? I thought the valve was opened
> mechanically by virtue of the ball/float being in the "down" position.
> How does the water pressure enter into that?

Derby Dad:

I expect that if the boyancy force of the float was ever used to shut
off water flow into the toilet tank, then that kind of plumbing hardware
went obsolete back in the 1950's.

So far as I know, with every kind of toilet fill valve that has a float,
the movement of the float serves only to push or pull a plug out of a
rubber diaphragm that sits over the port where water enters the toilet
tank.

City water pressure is applied to both sides of a rubber diaphragm that
sits directly above an opening through which water flows to enter the
toilet tank. But, because that pressure acts on a larger area on the
top side of that diaphragm than on the bottom side, there's a net force
holding the diaphragm tightly over that opening, thereby preventing
water flow out of it.

When you flush the toilet, as the water level and float drop, a
mechanical linkage pulls a plug out of the large area side of the
diaphragm, releasing the water pressure above the diaphragm.

The city water pressure on the small area side them pushes the diaphragm
off it's seat, and water flows under the diaphragm into the toilet
tank.

Once the toilet tank fills to the point where the float rises, that same
mechanical linkage pushes the plug back into the diaphragm, and as the
pressure builds up above the diaphragm, the net force pushes the
diaphragm down over the inlet, thereby stopping the flow of water into
the toilet tank.

So, the movement of the float doesn't directly control the flow of water
like the movement of the stem in a cartridge does. Instead, the
movement of the float is only used to plug or unplug a hole on the large
area side of the diaphragm, and it's the city water pressure itself that
forces the diaphragm up or down to allow or prevent water flow into the
toilet tank.

The advantage of this way of doing things is that there's less chance of
your basement being flooded by a runaway toilet. If the float ever
leaks and becomes water logged, it loses it's buoyancy force, but it's
weight (underwater) isn't sufficient to pull the plug out of the hole.
With a float system controlling the water flow, a leaking float could
result in a flooded house.

PS: The water supply valves on clothes washing machines and dish
washers use precisely this same principle to allow the flow of hot, cold
and both hot and cold water into those appliances. The only difference
is that it's a brass coated steel plug with a rubber tip on it sitting
inside a coil of wire that plugs or unplugs the hole in the large area
side of the diaphragm. When electric power is applied to that coil of
wire, the magnetic field pulls the plug out, and when the coil is
de-energized, a spring pushes that plug back to plug that hole again.
Still it's not the rubber tipped plug that's actually controlling the
water flow; it's the movement of the rubber diaphragm caused by the net
force on the diaphragm. The movement of the rubber tipped plug simply
releases the pressure on the large area side of the diaphragm to get the
valve to open when you want water flow. This is why, for example, you
can pull the electrical plug on a washing machine, and not have the
washer fill up with water. It's because it's not electrical power
that's stopping water flow into the washer, it's a spring pushing a plug
into place, and the citry water pressure itself is preventing flow into
the washer.




--
nestork

[cl...@snyder.on.ca]

On Mon, 1 Jul 2013 05:50:01 +0200, nestork

Virtually every house with indoor plumbing in Zambia ran off of a
gravity tank with 8-10 feet of head. The OP doesn't say how much head
he has, or what sised hose he is feeding it with. 3 feet of head
likely won't work, particularly through a 3/8 inch hose.

[cl...@snyder.on.ca]

The ball type valves (no diaphragm) are still avaiulable, but not
easily found. Hoover makes one - I think Rona carries it.

Watts Canada makes the "governor 80" ballcock that halso contains an
anti-siphon and an overpressure release.

Kohler still makes the ball type ballcock as well., as does Mansfield.

JAG makes one sold by home despot.SKU: 1000756670

[jamesgang]

Maybe he could modify a float valve to make it open easier with lower pressure. Most toilets have a overflow pipe in them as well for protection.

[DerbyDad03]

On Monday, July 1, 2013 11:25:33 AM UTC-4, nestork wrote:

Thanks for the explanation.

Wouldn't the overflow tube shuttle the water into the bowl where it's own weight would override the trap preventing the "flood" that you speak off?

Most of us have experienced toilet valves that have not shut off but very few of us have experienced flooded houses due to that malfunction.

[Home Guy]

DerbyDad03 used improper usenet message composition style by
unnecessarily full-quoting AND double-spacing:

> Wouldn't the overflow tube shuttle the water ...

Did you post that during your break or lunch time at 2:39 pm from your
workplace computer at Dean Witter Financial Services in NYC?

[nestork]

>
> Wouldn't the overflow tube shuttle the water into the bowl where it's
> own weight would override the trap preventing the "flood" that you speak
> off?
>
> Most of us have experienced toilet valves that have not shut off but
> very few of us have experienced flooded houses due to that malfunction.

Yep, water filling the toilet tank SHOULD go down the overflow tube as you
say.

However, my experience is that most people never give the hole in the tank
for the trip lever a second thought, and if you were to overflow most
toilet tanks, the water will drain out the trip lever hole before it even
gets close to the top of the overflow spout. So, in my experience, if you
have a toilet tank that doesn't stop filling, make sure your overflow
spout is below the elevation of the hole for your trip lever.

Most people just make sure the overflow spout is above the recommended
fill line by a good inch or so. That's not enough. It needs to be above
the recommended fill line, but still below the hole for the trip lever,
and often the fill line and the trip lever hole are within 3/4 inch of
each other, so you don't have much wiggle room.

Maybe go check your toilet.




--
nestork

[DerbyDad03]

nestork <nestork...@diybanter.com> wrote:
>>
>> Wouldn't the overflow tube shuttle the water into the bowl where it's
>> own weight would override the trap preventing the "flood" that you speak
>> off?
>>
>> Most of us have experienced toilet valves that have not shut off but
>> very few of us have experienced flooded houses due to that malfunction.
>
>
> Yep, water filling the toilet tank SHOULD go down the overflow tube as you
> say.
>
> However, my experience is that most people never give the hole in the tank
> for the trip lever a second thought, and if you were to overflow most
> toilet tanks, the water will drain out the trip lever hole before it even
> gets close to the top of the overflow spout.

I guess your experience is unlike anyone else's experience that I have run
across. I have never seen a continuously running toilet that filled up
enough to have the water come out of the lever hole - residential or
otherwise. I guess I, and everyone else I know, has been lucky that their
overflow tube was unknowingly below the lever hole.

I hope we get some responses from members who had experienced overflow
through the lever hole. I want to feel even luckier, knowing that it is a
fairly regular occurrence.

[micky]

I agree. Good questions.

[micky]

What do you mean by regulator? Do you have a flushometer or
something similar?

http://www.google.com/imgres?q=flushometer&um=1&sa=N&biw=1152&bih=671&hl=en&tbm=isch&tbnid=Tmtp5pw8cfnLSM:&imgrefurl=http://encyclopedia2.thefreedictionary.com/flushometer&docid=0eBUNhmSaND1lM&imgurl=http://img.tfd.com/architecture/f0426-01.png&w=300&h=276&ei=cUjSUZSAHo_o0wGR5oDADg&zoom=1&ved=1t:3588,r:1,s:0,i:93&iact=rc&page=1&tbnh=177&tbnw=193&start=0&ndsp=12&tx=117&ty=88
http://www.google.com/search?gs_rn=18&gs_ri=psy-ab&cp=11&gs_id=35&xhr=t&q=flushometer&biw=1152&bih=671&bav=on.2,or.r_qf.&bvm=bv.48572450,d.dmQ&um=1&ie=UTF-8&hl=en&tbm=isch&source=og&sa=N&tab=wi&ei=bkjSUYqSBJSJ0QG134DwBA

In the US these are used in public toilets, and in apartment buildings
in New York City. They depend on their being adequate water pressure
and there are various rules for buildings of different heights that
assure there is adequate water pressure.

Or do you have a tank in the toilet water closet, a tank that is
filled from the large tank in the yard?

When I had a flushometer, and I moved from the 4th floor to the 5th,
just 12 feet higher, my flushing got substantially worse**, (The
building had the right special equipment that this should not have
happened, an air pump to pressurize the water tank in the basement,
but the landlord was ignorant and didn't know how to make it work, So
he disconnected the electricity from the air pump, which would have
run automatically once or twice a week or maybe less often. Even
after I sent him a page from textbook)

**Worsse yet, when I was taking a shower and someone flushed a toilet
in a nearby bathroom, it drained the cold water from my shower and the
shower got too hot. So I gave up trying to take showers and for 10
years, took baths, where that was not an issue.

Can you replace the flushometer with a tank and a float valve? The
tank in the yard will fill the tank that sits on the toilet, and the
float valve inside the tank will stop the water from filling when it
reaches the right height. Then your toilet will have as much flush
power as almost any toilet I've seen. (Not counting the ones in some
motels that have extra air pressure powering the flushing)

I have the water to my toilet almost turned off. After I flush, I
can't even hear the water coming into the toilet, there is so little
of it and it's going so slow. the water pressure is so low past the
closed valve that It takes an hour for the tank to fill. But once it
does fill, it flushes just as well as ever. You don't need normal
or even less pressure if you flush from a tank, including one that
sits on the rear of the toilet, and not the water pressure in the
line.

[micky]

On Mon, 1 Jul 2013 17:25:33 +0200, nestork
<nestork...@diybanter.com> wrote:

>

No, I don't believe the city water pressure has anything to do with
closing the valve. It's the water level in the tank, which raises
the float, which is connected to the valve, that closes the valve.

Right now I have the water valve just outside one of my toilets closed
almost completely. The water barely dribbles into the tank, and the
tank water level rises so slowly it takes an hour to fill. But when
it is almost full, the float** is high enough to close the valve.

**Not a metal float on an arm but something I bought just 10 years
ago, with a plastic float just above the valve mechnaism.. The very
common brand whose name I forget.

[micky]

On Mon, 1 Jul 2013 11:39:31 -0700 (PDT), DerbyDad03
<teama...@eznet.net> wrote:

>
>>
>> The advantage of this way of doing things is that there's less chance of
>>
>> your basement being flooded by a runaway toilet. If the float ever
>>
>> leaks and becomes water logged, it loses it's buoyancy force, but it's
>>
>> weight (underwater) isn't sufficient to pull the plug out of the hole.
>>
>> With a float system controlling the water flow, a leaking float could
>>
>> result in a flooded house.
>>
>>
>>
>
>Thanks for the explanation.
>
>Wouldn't the overflow tube shuttle the water into the bowl where it's own weight would override the trap preventing the "flood" that you speak off?
>
>Most of us have experienced toilet valves that have not shut off but very few of us have experienced flooded houses due to that malfunction.

Right. The water from a runaway toilet valve just runs into the
toilet bowl and out the rear of it.

[micky]

On Sun, 30 Jun 2013 16:49:42 -0700 (PDT), ernes...@gmail.com wrote:

What do you mean by regulator? Do you have a flushometer or
something similar?

This is what a flushometer looks like, no tank, but a handle to flush
the toilet (or an infrared sensor to flush the toilet when a person
stands in front of the sensor and then leaves/ This style is becoming
more common in public and semi-public bathrooms.)

[nestork]

micky;3087051 Wrote:
>
> No, I don't believe the city water pressure has anything to do with
> closing the valve. It's the water level in the tank, which raises
> the float, which is connected to the valve, that closes the valve.
>

No, it really is the water pressure. Otherwise, why wouldn't your
washing machine start filling up with water the instant you unplugged
it?

>
> Right now I have the water valve just outside one of my toilets closed
> almost completely. The water barely dribbles into the tank, and the
> tank water level rises so slowly it takes an hour to fill. But when
> it is almost full, the float** is high enough to close the valve.
>
> **Not a metal float on an arm but something I bought just 10 years
> ago, with a plastic float just above the valve mechnaism.. The very
> common brand whose name I forget.
>

I think you'd get a lot better performance out of that fill valve if you
replaced the rubber diaphragm in it. I have seen toilets do that
before, but that was before I knew anything about plumbing. Still I
would try replacing the diaphragm in that fill valve and see if that
helps.

If you believe the closure is caused by the water level in the tank
raising the float, then wouldn't it make sense for flush valves to have
a large float at the end of a long float arm to generate the maximum
closure force. Why, for example, would designers make a fill valve with
very short float arms, such as in the fill valve below:

[image:
http://0.tqn.com/d/homerepair/1/0/R/H/-/-/float-cup-type-ballcock.jpg]

And, wouldn't it make sense that a fill valve like the one above
wouldn't work nearly as well as something like this:

[image:
http://0.tqn.com/d/homerepair/1/0/o/H/-/-/4-diaphragm-ballcock-plastic.jpg]

In fact, you don't need much force to push a plug into or out of a
rubber diaphragm, and so there's no real advantage in having a large
float and a long float arm. If it was the buoyancy force of the float
that shut off the water flow, then EVERY toilet fill valve would have a
float the size of a large pumpkin on the end of a two foot long float
arm because that's what would work best.




--
nestork

[Stormin Mormon]

Fortunately, yes, the excess water goes down the drain.

I had a water valve go bad, on my washing machine. Fortunately for me, the water (hot, sadly so) went down the drain. My natural gas bill went up that month.
.
Christopher A. Young
Learn more about Jesus
www.lds.org
.
.
"DerbyDad03" <teama...@eznet.net> wrote in message news:a9c8af26-69d5-44e7...@googlegroups.com...

[Stormin Mormon]

Washing machine valve is closed, unless the
power activates the solenoid which pulls the
valve open. I've never tried a washing machine
valve with low pressure cistern water. Would be
a fun test for someone to do and let us know
what was learned.

.
Christopher A. Young
Learn more about Jesus
www.lds.org
.
.

"nestork" <nestork...@diybanter.com> wrote in message news:nestork...@diybanter.com...

[micky]

On Tue, 2 Jul 2013 08:09:40 +0200, nestork
<nestork...@diybanter.com> wrote:

>
>micky;3087051 Wrote:
>>
>> No, I don't believe the city water pressure has anything to do with
>> closing the valve. It's the water level in the tank, which raises
>> the float, which is connected to the valve, that closes the valve.
>>
>
>No, it really is the water pressure. Otherwise, why wouldn't your
>washing machine start filling up with water the instant you unplugged
>it?

Or turned it off, for that matter. Because the default position for
washing machine valves is off, and the water pressure is not enough to
make them open***. They only open when their solenoids get 110 volts
from the washing machine timer. ***It's easy enough to make a valve
that even very high water pressure will not push open. Just have the
water pressure at right angles to the valve plunger travel.

And, I hate to be harsh but your analogy gives me no faith in your
understanding of toilets. Washing machines are not toilets. Toilets
have no electricity, so they have to use a different system**. For
them, the default position when the tank is empty or partially full of
water is an open valve. No electricity needed to open it. To close
it, it's the water level, which raises the float which is connected
to the valve. This is true for either a long arm float or a cup
float. No electricity needed to close it.

**Or since toilets came first, "so washing machines can use
electricity to do things toilets can't do."

>> Right now I have the water valve just outside one of my toilets closed
>> almost completely. The water barely dribbles into the tank, and the
>> tank water level rises so slowly it takes an hour to fill. But when
>> it is almost full, the float** is high enough to close the valve.
>>
>> **Not a metal float on an arm but something I bought just 10 years
>> ago, with a plastic float just above the valve mechnaism.. The very
>> common brand whose name I forget.
>>
>
>I think you'd get a lot better performance out of that fill valve if you

How can I get better performance? It works fine. The water was
turned off for other reasons.

>replaced the rubber diaphragm in it.

I don't know that it has a *rubber* diaphragm, but who do you think
sells one? Not Fluidmaster, that's for sure. (That's the brand
name I could't think of.)

If you mean replace the rubber diaphragm in a long arm float ball
cock, if I had one that worked as well as my current one does, there's
be no point in replacing it's diaphragm either.

>I have seen toilets do that
>before, but that was before I knew anything about plumbing. Still I
>would try replacing the diaphragm in that fill valve and see if that
>helps.

Helps what? It works fine.

>If you believe the closure is caused by the water level in the tank
>raising the float, then wouldn't it make sense for flush valves to have
>a large float at the end of a long float arm to generate the maximum
>closure force.

It would make sense if the ones with short arms didn't work, but they
do. (And they seem to last as long or longer than long arm ball
cocks. The house is 34 years old. One Melarc failed about 3 years
ago and it's fluidmaster replacement makes so much noise while i'm
cooking or eating in the next room that i'm going to replace it with
that other brand (and save the used one for another toilet) Another
one sort of failed a few months ago, after at least 20 years.
Sometimes the float doesnt' fall down. I was about to replace it
when it started working again. I forget the history of the third
one.)

> Why, for example, would designers make a fill valve with
>very short float arms, such as in the fill valve below:
>
>[image:
>http://0.tqn.com/d/homerepair/1/0/R/H/-/-/float-cup-type-ballcock.jpg]

Because it's more compact, takes less storage space, and can be
shipped in one smaller box, and doesn't need assembly like the long
arm ball cock.

>And, wouldn't it make sense that a fill valve like the one above
>wouldn't work nearly as well as something like this:

It might make sense but it's not true. Not everything that makes
sense is actually true.

>
>[image:
>http://0.tqn.com/d/homerepair/1/0/o/H/-/-/4-diaphragm-ballcock-plastic.jpg]
>
>In fact, you don't need much force to push a plug into or out of a
>rubber diaphragm, and so there's no real advantage in having a large
>float and a long float arm.

So you agree with me?

> If it was the buoyancy force of the float
>that shut off the water flow, then EVERY toilet fill valve would have a
>float the size of a large pumpkin on the end of a two foot long float
>arm because that's what would work best.

For a particular meaning of "best". The Brooklyn Bridge turned out
to be overdesigned for the horses and wagons it carried at the start.
But it was still a better design since when cars and big trucks came
along, the Brooklyn Bridge was strong enough to hold them. (not sure
aobut other bridges built shortly after that one.)

But the situation in the toilet stays the same. The water doesn't
get any heavier, nor does the air, year after year.


BTW, my house came with long arm floats, and they did sell
replacements of the same design the first time a valve started leaking
even when the water level was high. I replaced it with a short arm
float style instead because it had a bayonet mount. After I replaced
it once, using a wrench on the big nut below the tank, the next times
it would only take 30 seconds, not counting turning the water off and
on. Unfortuately for me, by the time it broke the next time, Melarc
brand was not for sale and all there was was Fluidmaster, which I
think had the bayonet mount but it wasn't compatible with the Melarc
bayonet. So eventually I decided to buy some Fluidmaster bayonet
mount in advance, but by that time Fluidmaster was height-adjustible
(see the spiral threads in your firsr jpg file) and had no bayonet
mount at all. That does annoy me that they had a good idea and got
rid of it (unless maybe it wasn't a good idea. maybe it leaked) But
the long-arm ball cock doesn't have, never had, the bayonet mount
either.

[micky]

On Tue, 2 Jul 2013 09:05:26 -0400, "Stormin Mormon"
<cayoung61**NOJUNK**@hotmail.com> wrote:

>Washing machine valve is closed, unless the
>power activates the solenoid which pulls the
>valve open. I've never tried a washing machine
>valve with low pressure cistern water. Would be
>a fun test for someone to do and let us know
>what was learned.

I havent' done it, but it would fill fine. The part of the spin cycle
where the water sprays (to rinse away the left over suds) would not
work right in the machine I have. The water wouldn't have enough
pressure to spray and would just wet the clothes again, a little.

>Christopher A. Young

[Jon Danniken]

Excellent description, thanks Nestork. I ran into this problem once
when trying to tie a drip irrigation system into a rain barrel, as most
of the water timers relied on high pressure to open.

Fortunately I found an old rain-bird unit that used a ball valve, which,
despite needing a lot more energy, worked with the low pressure system
(and that is one of the benefits of the high pressure one; they can work
on a 9V battery just fine instead of the 4-C cells I needed with the
ball valve unit.

Jon

[Stormin Mormon]

Question: Would a washing machine valve
flow water (like a toilet valve) if the supply
pressure were low, from a cistern? Does
a washing machine valve require water
pressure to close, like toilet valves in the
original post?

Please don't leave my name below your
text, unless you're going to have your name
changed to Christopher A. Young.

.
Christopher A. Young
Learn more about Jesus
www.lds.org
.
.

"micky" <NONONO...@bigfoot.com> wrote in message news:r2l5t8le1g42nvpte...@4ax.com...

[jamesgang]

I'm not sure that is true. Some devices like washers with mechanically timed cycles do not stop the timer until the water is full. Rather they have enough time in the cycle to permit it to fill and the fill is then shut off by a level sensor. In other words the timer keeps on ticking while it's filling. If the fill takes too long the cycle will pass.

[jamesgang]

Then learn how to stop top posting.

[Bob F]

nestork wrote:
> DerbyDad03;3086695 Wrote:
>>
>> Why would an old fashioned ballcock assembly work with less pressure
>> than one of the more modern float style?
>>
>> Whether the ball is down or the float is down, shouldn't whatever
>> valve is at the top of the tube be open? I thought the valve was
>> opened mechanically by virtue of the ball/float being in the "down"
>> position. How does the water pressure enter into that?
>
> Derby Dad:
>
> I expect that if the boyancy force of the float was ever used to shut
> off water flow into the toilet tank, then that kind of plumbing
> hardware went obsolete back in the 1950's.
>
> So far as I know, with every kind of toilet fill valve that has a
> float, the movement of the float serves only to push or pull a plug
> out of a rubber diaphragm that sits over the port where water enters
> the toilet tank.

The newer valves turn off quickly at the end because of how the valve works. The
old fashioned valves turned off gradually as the higher water listing the float
arm pushed harder and harder to push the valve seat closed against the water
pressure. A whistle noise would frequently occur near the end of the fill cycle.

Those old valves don't depend on high water pressure to open the valve like the
old ones.

[bud--]

On 7/1/2013 9:25 AM, nestork wrote:
>
> it's the city water pressure itself that
> forces the diaphragm up or down to allow or prevent water flow into the
> toilet tank.
>

> PS: The water supply valves on clothes washing machines and dish
> washers use precisely this same principle to allow the flow of hot, cold
> and both hot and cold water into those appliances.

I agree it is real common.

Is there a name for that type of mechanism?

[micky]

Just what I would have said.

[micky]

I could test this by turning the water off mid-fill, but that would
only show how my one model was working, so I'm not going to bother.

I could also look at the diagram to see if the level switch interrupts
the power to the timer motor, but the diagram is on the back of the
washing machine, inside the removeable panel iirc. (My machine is 34
years old so it doesn't have a front that comes off. )

I hope I remember to look next time I have the panel off.

I also don't have much of a feel for how fast the machine would fill
from a cistern, and it depends a lot on how high up the cistern is.
On the roof of a one-story house, two stories, my summer place in
Newport that is 6 stories tall?

[micky]

On Tue, 2 Jul 2013 09:36:09 -0400, "Stormin Mormon"
<cayoung61**NOJUNK**@hotmail.com> wrote:

>Question: Would a washing machine valve
>flow water (like a toilet valve) if the supply
>pressure were low, from a cistern?

Yes, but at a low rate.

>Does
>a washing machine valve require water
>pressure to close, like toilet valves in the
>original post?

No, washing machine valves close when there is no power applied to
them. They have a spring, and it's probably pretty strong given the
thud that can sound through all the (cold water?) pipes in the house
when the valve closes suddenly.

>Please don't leave my name below your
>text, unless you're going to have your name
>changed to Christopher A. Young.
>.
>Christopher A. Young
>Learn more about Jesus
> www.lds.org
>.

When we asked you to stop top-posting, you ignored us.

[nestork]

bud--;3087223 Wrote:
>
>
> PS: The water supply valves on clothes washing machines and dish
> washers use precisely this same principle to allow the flow of hot,
> cold
> and both hot and cold water into those appliances.
>

> Is there a name for that type of mechanism?

I think it's just called a "diaphragm valve". There are mechanical
diaphragm valves, like on a toilet tank ballcock, and electrical
diaphragm valves, like on a washing machine's water mixing valve.




--
nestork

[nestork]

micky;3087254 Wrote:
>
> No, washing machine valves close when there is no power applied to
> them. They have a spring, and it's probably pretty strong given the
> thud that can sound through all the (cold water?) pipes in the house
> when the valve closes suddenly.
>

> Washing machine valve is closed, unless the
> power activates the solenoid which pulls the
> valve open.
>

It's more correct to say that water mixing valves OPEN when the hot or
cold solenoiods in them are energized.

Back when they used to sell overhaul kits for washing machine water
mixing valves, I overhauled the water mixing valve on my main floor
washer. The hot and cold springs that push the plug back into the
diaphragm when the coil is de-energized aren't any bigger or stronger
than the springs you find in a typical ball point pen.

This image explains how the water mixing valve in a washer works fairly
well:

[image:
http://static.howstuffworks.com/gif/how-to-repair-a-washing-machine-2.jpg]

Water comes in through the hoses and filtration screens on the right
hand side.

The rubber diaphragm rests on a plastic seat. Water flows through that
seat to get into the washing machine wash basket.

The water pressure is the same on both sides of the diapragm, but the
area occupied by the seat reduces the area over which that pressure is
applied on the far side of the diaphragm.

So, as long as the machine is off, the pressure equalizes on both sides
of the diaphragm, but since force = pressure X area, there's a net force
pushing the diaphragm down tightly onto the seat so that water can't
flow into the washer.

When someone starts the washer, the hot, cold or both hot and cold
solenoids are energized. This pulls the brass plated iron plug out of
the hole in the middle of the rubber diapragm. When that happens, the
pressure on the large area side of the diaphragm is released and the
city water supply pressure on the small area side of the diaphragm
pushes the diaphragm off it's seat. Water then flows under the
diaphragm into the washing machine.

When the pressure switch in the washing machine senses that the washer
is full, it stops the flow of electrical power to the hot and cold
solenoids so that they are no longer pulling the brass coated iron plug
in. The spring then pushes the brass coated iron plug out so that it
covers the hole in the middle of the rubber diaphragm.

The water pressure then equalizes on both sides of the rubber diaphragm,
and because the area of the seat reduces the area exposed to that
pressure on one side of the diaphragm, there's a net force pushing the
diaphragm down onto the seat so that water flow into the washer stops.

Here's what a water mixing valve for a washing machine typically looks
like:

[image: https://www.midwestapplianceparts.com/images/22003384.jpg]

The two supply hoses you connect to your washer actually screw on to the
mixing valve itself. Each solenoid is energized depending on whether
you set the machine for a hot, cold or warm wash. The water enters at
the two male threaded hose connections and leaves via the smaller tube
on the opposite side of the valve.

Here's the water valve for a dish washer:

[image:
http://b2bimg.bridgat.com/files/solenoid_valve_for_washing_machine.jpg]

There's only one solenoid because you only supply hot water to your dish
washer.

And, a toilet ballcock works exactly the same way, except that it uses
the movement of the float to pull the plug out of the rubber diaphragm
when you want water to flow into the tank, and push it back into the
rubber diaphragm when you want to stop filling the toilet tank.

There you have it. The ugly truth about toilet ballcocks.




--
nestork

[cl...@snyder.on.ca]

On Tue, 2 Jul 2013 08:09:40 +0200, nestork
<nestork...@diybanter.com> wrote:

>

>micky;3087051 Wrote:
>>
>> No, I don't believe the city water pressure has anything to do with
>> closing the valve. It's the water level in the tank, which raises
>> the float, which is connected to the valve, that closes the valve.
>>
>
>No, it really is the water pressure. Otherwise, why wouldn't your
>washing machine start filling up with water the instant you unplugged
>it?

Because a washing machine has a solenoid controlled valve - only open
when powered.

>
>>
>> Right now I have the water valve just outside one of my toilets closed
>> almost completely. The water barely dribbles into the tank, and the
>> tank water level rises so slowly it takes an hour to fill. But when
>> it is almost full, the float** is high enough to close the valve.
>>
>> **Not a metal float on an arm but something I bought just 10 years
>> ago, with a plastic float just above the valve mechnaism.. The very
>> common brand whose name I forget.
>>
>
>I think you'd get a lot better performance out of that fill valve if you
>replaced the rubber diaphragm in it. I have seen toilets do that
>before, but that was before I knew anything about plumbing. Still I
>would try replacing the diaphragm in that fill valve and see if that
>helps.

I don't think you understand. I think he has turned the water control
valve off to PROOVE that the fill valve works even with virtually no
pressure.

>
>If you believe the closure is caused by the water level in the tank
>raising the float, then wouldn't it make sense for flush valves to have
>a large float at the end of a long float arm to generate the maximum
>closure force. Why, for example, would designers make a fill valve with
>very short float arms, such as in the fill valve below:
>

Because they can.. And old (style) ones DID use a long lever - the
new (style) ones are less trouble. (usually)

[cl...@snyder.on.ca]

On Tue, 2 Jul 2013 09:05:26 -0400, "Stormin Mormon"
<cayoung61**NOJUNK**@hotmail.com> wrote:

>Washing machine valve is closed, unless the
>power activates the solenoid which pulls the
>valve open. I've never tried a washing machine
>valve with low pressure cistern water. Would be
>a fun test for someone to do and let us know
>what was learned.
>.
>Christopher A. Young
>Learn more about Jesus
> www.lds.org
>.

Depends what you call "low pressure cistern water" If it has a pump
it works fine.

[cl...@snyder.on.ca]

You are describing a piloted valve - which is quite common, but is
NOT the only kind of water shutoff valve.

[micky]

On Tue, 2 Jul 2013 23:29:18 +0200, nestork
<nestork...@diybanter.com> wrote:

>

>And, a toilet ballcock works exactly the same way, except that it uses
>the movement of the float to pull the plug out of the rubber diaphragm
>when you want water to flow into the tank, and push it back into the
>rubber diaphragm when you want to stop filling the toilet tank.

This description has been bothering me for a day or so. Rather
than the plug going in and out of the diaphragm, I think the plug is
firmly fixed in the diaphragm, and the whole thing, the plug and the
middle portion** of the diaphragm move back and forth as one unit when
the water goes on and off. The valve itself is very close, on the
wet side of the diaphragm. The plug goes out of and in the rest of
the valve, depending on whether the water is flowing or not, and a
flexible diaphragm is needed so that water won't come out of the top
of the valve, like it would if there were just a hard piece with a
hole just big enough for the plug. That would still leak but a
diaphragm that hasn't ripped or cracked yet won't.

**The circumference of the diaphragm is immobile, in between the two
pieces of the case, usually with screws every 30 or maybe 120 degrees
around the circumference, holding the top, the diaphragm, and the
bottom together.

I used a lot of words because I havent' found an adequate picture.

[ls99]

micky;3087477 Wrote:
> On Tue, 2 Jul 2013 23:29:18 +0200, nestork
> nestork...@diybanter.com wrote:

> -

>
> And, a toilet ballcock works exactly the same way, except that it uses
> the movement of the float to pull the plug out of the rubber diaphragm
> when you want water to flow into the tank, and push it back into the

> rubber diaphragm when you want to stop filling the toilet tank.-

>
> This description has been bothering me for a day or so. Rather
> than the plug going in and out of the diaphragm, I think the plug is
> firmly fixed in the diaphragm, and the whole thing, the plug and the
> middle portion** of the diaphragm move back and forth as one unit when
> the water goes on and off. The valve itself is very close, on the
> wet side of the diaphragm. The plug goes out of and in the rest of
> the valve, depending on whether the water is flowing or not, and a
> flexible diaphragm is needed so that water won't come out of the top
> of the valve, like it would if there were just a hard piece with a
> hole just big enough for the plug. That would still leak but a
> diaphragm that hasn't ripped or cracked yet won't.
>
> **The circumference of the diaphragm is immobile, in between the two
> pieces of the case, usually with screws every 30 or maybe 120 degrees
> around the circumference, holding the top, the diaphragm, and the
> bottom together.
>
> I used a lot of words because I havent' found an adequate picture.

> -

> There you have it. The ugly truth about toilet ballcocks.

> -

New guy here.

I read through this entire thread, since I am interested in the same as
as the OP.

I note that some suggested a pump. In my situation for example, at a
camp there is no electric except for occasional run of a generator.
Solar power is available but very limited as well, only run a few LED
lights.

The fundamental problem is filling a toilet with gravity at very low
head, 3 foot above the tank top. I have tried ballcock as well as the
newer short arm fill valves. Neither will shut off.

Using electric for pumping or valve control is out of the question.
Current method is to turn on the manual valve to the toilet when
posterior is on the seat, tank will mostly fill while on the throne.
Flush. While washing hands leave manual valve on. When handwash is done
turn off manual valve.

Rinse repeat.

So where does one find a fill valve which will function on a very low
head water system?




--
ls99

[ernes...@gmail.com]

On Sunday, June 30, 2013 7:49:42 PM UTC-4, ernes...@gmail.com wrote:
> Hi,
>
> I've installed a large tank in the yard, above the height of my toilet water closet. I'm filling the large tank with water from a sump pump.
>
> Problem is this:
>
> The gravity feed is very low pressure, so the regulator in the toilet water closet doesn't function using the gravity feed supply. However the regulator works fine when using the city supply for water.
>
> Is there anyway to adjust the regulator in the toilet water closet to work with very low pressure water supply?

I'm back, just read most of the replies.

What I ended up doing is taking the shut off valve a part (it was easy) and removing the large rubber rings that are used to quiet the water flow. I think that's what they're in there for. I left only the small one that actually shuts off the water when the ball arm is lifted to the top of the tank by the water height.
So the low water pressure works now and I've been using the system all month.
It takes about six minutes for the toilet tank to fill enough for another flush.
With the large rings removed I can hear the water trickling into the tank, but I don't mind as it lets me know its working okay.
Thanks for all the input.

[hrho...@sbcglobal.net]

Great to have the final feedback

[nestork]

Ahh, finally. I finally got the proof I needed to show that toilet
ballcocks (at least the FluidMaster A400) use the water pressure in the
supply line to open and close, and not the buoyancy force of the float,
which was a contentious issue in this thread.

Readers are referred to Fluidmaster's own tech support page here

http://support.fluidmaster.com/realdialog_docs/valve_works.pdf

The above PDF file explains exactly how the diaphragm (which they call
the "seal") is pushed up and down by water pressure acting on it.

Clare_Snyder: The water valves in clothes and dish washers operate
exactly the same way, it's just that they use an electromagnet to pull a
plug out of a hole in the diaphragm and a spring to push it back in.
But, it's still the _water_pressure_ that pushes the diaphragm off the
seat and water pressure that pushes it back onto the seat, not the
electromagnet. The electromagnet merely pulls the plug out to release
the water pressure on the large area side to cause the valve to open and
the spring just pushes that plug back in to cause the valve to close.




--
nestork

[Brad Tuttle]

This is a really old thread but in case someone else views it, Jobe makes a flow valve that works with any water pressure above zero. It is sold on Amazon. I use it for gravity fed water troughs for my goats but it would work great inside a gravity fed toilet.