Grounding wire from panel to gas pipe???
blueman
expected) ran a ground wire from the cold water main inlet to the
ground on the panel.
I read somewhere that one should also run a similar grounding wire to
the natural gas pipe inlet but the electrician didn't do that.
- Is it required by code?
- Is it recommended?
- Should one use the same gauge wire as for the water pipe?
- Any special considerations?
- Can I daisy chain it from the water pipe or do I need to run a
separate ground back to the panel?
Thanks
bam...@localnet.com
sticker that states the following. "Under cathodic protection, do not
ground"
Brad
they are both are buried.
The grounding is done to help ensure the electrical panel has a true
ground.
In some cases the panel ground is wired to a long steel pole driven
into the earth. Just different ways to do the same thing.
Brad
Doug Miller
> Both pipes should be at the same electric potential (ground) since
>they are both are buried.
>The grounding is done to help ensure the electrical panel has a true
>ground.
Wrong, wrong, wrong, wrong.
The water piping is bonded to the electrical ground in order to insure that
the _water_piping_ has a true electrical ground -- IOW, to prevent the water
piping from becoming live in the event of an electrical fault somewhere.
--
Regards,
Doug Miller (alphageek at milmac dot com)
It's time to throw all their damned tea in the harbor again.
AZ Nomad
>In article <1154371066.6...@75g2000cwc.googlegroups.com>, "Brad" <hardi...@gmail.com> wrote:
>> Both pipes should be at the same electric potential (ground) since
>>they are both are buried.
>>The grounding is done to help ensure the electrical panel has a true
>>ground.
>Wrong, wrong, wrong, wrong.
>The water piping is bonded to the electrical ground in order to insure that
>the _water_piping_ has a true electrical ground -- IOW, to prevent the water
>piping from becoming live in the event of an electrical fault somewhere.
The first poster had it right. The water piping is already at ground because
it is in direct contact with the ground. Unless of course you have
your water brought to you on pipes suspended in the air. Or perhaps you
have it flown in?
hal...@aol.com
hal...@aol.com
Jeff Wisnia
> Both pipes should be at the same electric potential (ground) since
> they are both are buried.
Wrong, wrong...
Someone already mentioned the words "cathodic protection" with respect
to gas pipes.
What that means is that the gas company has connected a low voltage
source between a metal anode buried in the earth and the gas main and
the pipes leading off it to each user. The purpose is to make the pipes
slightly more electrically negative than ground so that they don't get
eaten away by galvanic corrosion.
The same sort of active protection is sometimes used at boat marinas and
on buried metal structures like guy wire anchors. The systems are also
known by the names "active cathodic protection" or "impressed current
protection".
There's a dielectric (insulated) coupling somewhere near the gas meter
to insulate the gas pipe in your house from the buried main and feeder
so that you don't "short out" that deliberately applied protection
voltage, because the gas pipe in your home probably gets electrically
grounded through some gas appliance it's connected to.
The use of plastic buried gas piping has eliiminated the need for those
kinds of corrosion protection systems on new work.
> The grounding is done to help ensure the electrical panel has a true
> ground.
> In some cases the panel ground is wired to a long steel pole driven
> into the earth. Just different ways to do the same thing.
> Brad
>
> blueman wrote:
>
>>When we had our electric service upgraded, the electrician (as
>>expected) ran a ground wire from the cold water main inlet to the
>>ground on the panel.
>>
>>I read somewhere that one should also run a similar grounding wire to
>>the natural gas pipe inlet but the electrician didn't do that.
>>- Is it required by code?
>>- Is it recommended?
>>- Should one use the same gauge wire as for the water pipe?
>>- Any special considerations?
>>- Can I daisy chain it from the water pipe or do I need to run a
>> separate ground back to the panel?
>>
>>Thanks
>
>
--
Jeffry Wisnia
(W1BSV + Brass Rat '57 EE)
"Rudeness is the weak man's imitation of strength."
Click Fraud
>The water piping is bonded to the electrical ground in order to insure that
>the _water_piping_ has a true electrical ground -- IOW, to prevent the water
>piping from becoming live in the event of an electrical fault somewhere.
And this really is an important thing!
My mother in law's dishwasher developed a short to the incoming water
pipe. Most of her water piping is PVC, but some of the outside parts
are metal, and NOT bonded to ground.
We discovered this one day when she went to water the lawn while the
dishwasher was running. She reached for the faucet, and ZAP!
Fortunately, it was not lethal.
John Grabowski
"blueman" <NOS...@nospam.com> wrote in message
news:u3bchw...@nospam.com...
The correct term is "Bonded". The current code as written requires that all
interior metal piping be bonded together. This can be accomplished by using
#6 copper wire and approved clamps. It is common in New Jersey to bond the
hot and cold water pipes together at the water heater location. It would be
very easy to continue the bonding wire to the gas pipe at the water heater.
Some jurisdictions do not require that the gas pipe also be bonded. Some
gas companies do not want their pipes bonded. The electrical inspector would
have noticed this and would have failed the job if it wasn't done correctly.
Did the electrician also install at least one (Preferably two) ground rod?
Doug Miller
No, he didn't. The electrical system has its own, *separate* grounding
electrode. Metal water piping is bonded to the electrical system grounding
electrodes to ensure that the metal water piping cannot become live, *not* to
provide a ground for the electrical system.
BTW... have you ever heard of plastic water piping?
Eigenvector
I asked that very same question to the people I shoot with at the range -
all of them either are instructors for gas service or perform field repair
services for the gas company. Every single one, all 3 of them, said "DON'T
DO IT!!!!" shortly followed up by "Mind if we come by this week to INSPECT
your service??"
The gas company protects its own piping, if you must use ground wires to
plumbing - use your cold water tap. Better yet save your pennies like I am
and get grounded service. If I keep saving my extra money I might be able
to afford it within the next 20 years - but's that's only if everything else
in my life goes perfectly.
Jeff Wisnia
Did you find out HOW the dishwasher shorted to the inlet pipe? Seems a
bit hard to fathom unless whoever installed the wiring to the dishwaher
didn't ground it properly.
A plastic bodied water inlet solenoid valve might have insulated the
inlet pipe from the rest of the dishwasher, but how did a switched hot
lead contact the pipe? Maybe the solenoid valve's coil developed a short
to it's case, which was electrically connected to the piping, but not to
the rest of the machine.
My curious mind wants to know...
Jeff
AZ Nomad
>In article <slrnecsrbf....@ip70-176-155-130.ph.ph.cox.net>, AZ Nomad <azn...@PmunOgeBOX.com> wrote:
>>On Mon, 31 Jul 2006 19:33:04 GMT, Doug Miller <spam...@milmac.com> wrote:
>>
>>
>>>In article <1154371066.6...@75g2000cwc.googlegroups.com>, "Brad"
>> <hardi...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>> Both pipes should be at the same electric potential (ground) since
>>>>they are both are buried.
>>>>The grounding is done to help ensure the electrical panel has a true
>>>>ground.
>>
>>>Wrong, wrong, wrong, wrong.
>>
>>>The water piping is bonded to the electrical ground in order to insure that
>>>the _water_piping_ has a true electrical ground -- IOW, to prevent the water
>>>piping from becoming live in the event of an electrical fault somewhere.
>>
>>The first poster had it right. The water piping is already at ground because
>>it is in direct contact with the ground. Unless of course you have
>>your water brought to you on pipes suspended in the air. Or perhaps you
>>have it flown in?
>No, he didn't. The electrical system has its own, *separate* grounding
>electrode. Metal water piping is bonded to the electrical system grounding
>electrodes to ensure that the metal water piping cannot become live, *not* to
>provide a ground for the electrical system.
Metal water piping burried in the ground cannot become live.
It is as well grounded as possible. If you connect the house's ground to
it then it is in order to keep the house's ground from being live
compared to the water pipe.
>BTW... have you ever heard of plastic water piping?
As a water source? Never.
What has that to do with anything discussed? Nobody is going gto use
ploastic for grounding.
Doug Miller
This is *not* correct in any respect.
There is no guarantee that the electrical system's grounding electrode, and
the metal water piping, are at the same potential unless they are bonded
together -- despite both of them being buried in the ground. Electrical
resistance in the earth is not constant, and in fact can vary widely even over
short distances.
I repeat: the *sole* reason for bonding metal water piping to the electrical
system's grounding electrode(s) is to ensure that the water piping is at the
same potential as the electrical system's ground, so that the water pipes
cannot become live in the event of an electrical fault.
Google is your friend, and educating yourself on this topic should be easy.
Tekkie®
I don't top post - see either inline or at bottom.
Hey Jefie is that you? Another question that been asked and answered quite a
few times. Google still broke at your house aye? Take your meds...
--
Tekkie
Tekkie®
I don't top post - see either inline or at bottom.
> I asked that very same question to the people I shoot with at the range -
> all of them either are instructors for gas service or perform field repair
> services for the gas company. Every single one, all 3 of them, said "DON'T
> DO IT!!!!" shortly followed up by "Mind if we come by this week to INSPECT
> your service??"
>
> The gas company protects its own piping, if you must use ground wires to
> plumbing - use your cold water tap. Better yet save your pennies like I am
> and get grounded service. If I keep saving my extra money I might be able
> to afford it within the next 20 years - but's that's only if everything else
> in my life goes perfectly.
>
Hey, good luck!!!!
--
Tekkie
EXT
should be used as a ground unless it is fed by a plastic pipe. The gas line
should NEVER be used as a ground, although it should be grounded to the
building ground, because gas supply lines can also be made of plastic, and
even if it is metallic it will have an insulating fitting at the meter to
prevent interference with cathodic corrosion protection of the underground
lines.
If you have a furnace or a powered water heater and grounded wiring, the
connection through this equipment will also ground the gas lines. However, I
believe NEC requires a separate cross connection to ensure proper grounding.
"Brad" <hardi...@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:1154371066.6...@75g2000cwc.googlegroups.com...
Phil Munro
consistent with what I say. :-)
Tekkie® wrote:
> Eigenvector posted for all of us...
> I don't top post - see either inline or at bottom.
>
>> ...
>>
>
> Hey, good luck!!!!
blueman
> This is *not* correct in any respect.
>
> There is no guarantee that the electrical system's grounding electrode, and
> the metal water piping, are at the same potential unless they are bonded
> together -- despite both of them being buried in the ground. Electrical
> resistance in the earth is not constant, and in fact can vary widely even over
> short distances.
>
> I repeat: the *sole* reason for bonding metal water piping to the electrical
> system's grounding electrode(s) is to ensure that the water piping is at the
> same potential as the electrical system's ground, so that the water pipes
> cannot become live in the event of an electrical fault.
>
> Google is your friend, and educating yourself on this topic should be easy.
>
> --
> Regards,
> Doug Miller (alphageek at milmac dot com)
>
> It's time to throw all their damned tea in the harbor again.
So, my question stands:
For the same reason that you ground the water pipe so that it is not
energized, do you need to do the same thing to the gas pipe source?
Again I am interested both in what CODE says and what is the smart
recommendation even if not required by code.
blueman
> Take a look at your gas pipe near the meter. I bet there is a tag or
> sticker that states the following. "Under cathodic protection, do not
> ground"
Can you explain what this means and why it implies that it shouldn't
be grounded?
Also, where would I find this tag?
blueman
According to your explanation, then I would think that the gas pipe
SHOULD be grounded. For you say that the in-house pipe is insulated
from the underground piping and hence NEITHER grounded nor "cathodic
protected".
Of course the pipe may end up being indirectly grounded through an
appliance ground, but that seems like all the more reason for
installing a solid, secure, permanent ground connection to the panel
ground. After all, what if the appliance is miswired and the appliance
ground is energized resulting in the pipe being energized (yet
insulated from earth ground), resulting in shock just like with a
water pipe...
blueman
> While both pipes are buried and may be made of metal, only the water line
> should be used as a ground unless it is fed by a plastic pipe. The gas line
> should NEVER be used as a ground, although it should be grounded to the
> building ground, because gas supply lines can also be made of plastic, and
> even if it is metallic it will have an insulating fitting at the meter to
> prevent interference with cathodic corrosion protection of the underground
> lines.
>
> If you have a furnace or a powered water heater and grounded wiring, the
> connection through this equipment will also ground the gas lines. However, I
> believe NEC requires a separate cross connection to ensure proper grounding.
>
Yes, but my question remains whether to attach the gas pipe to panel
ground not for the purpose of grounding the panel but for the converse
purpose of ensuring that the metal pipe inside the house never gets energized.
blueman
The electrician installed one exterior copper rod sunk in the ground
and attached directly to the 200A main breaker (which is exterior to
the house in a box with the meter) and then a second copper wire
running from where the water source enters the house (old galvanized
1" metal pipe) to the grounding strip within the 200A Subpanel.
Service Entrance
200A Main Breaker 200A Subpanel 100A Subpanel
Neurtral----->[----------]---------->[-----------]--------->[-----------]
[ | ] [ ] [ ]
Earth grnd -->[--------- ]---------->[-----------]--------->[-----------]
|
Water pipe -----|
Note that all other subpanels feed off of the 200A Subpanel.
Note I have also shown where the neutral and grounds are bonded at the
main breaker.
Does this make sense and is it legal?
blueman
> The correct term is "Bonded". The current code as written requires that all
> interior metal piping be bonded together. This can be accomplished by using
> #6 copper wire and approved clamps. It is common in New Jersey to bond the
> hot and cold water pipes together at the water heater location. It would be
> very easy to continue the bonding wire to the gas pipe at the water heater.
> Some jurisdictions do not require that the gas pipe also be bonded. Some
> gas companies do not want their pipes bonded. The electrical inspector would
> have noticed this and would have failed the job if it wasn't done correctly.
>
> Did the electrician also install at least one (Preferably two) ground rod?
Do you need to explicitly bond the hot and cold pipes together using a
copper wire jumper, or is there electrical continuity through the war
heater? (Note my house is all coper pipes)
Also can I bond the gas pipe to the subpanel indirectly by just
jumpering the gas water heater intake pipe to the cold water pipe
entering the hot water heater?
Or is it required to directly bond the gas intake pipe at the meter to
the panel ground using a single wire?
Or is all of this unnecessary since the water heater itself provides a
conducting path bonding the gas pipe system to the water pipe system
(and then back through the water pipe to the panel ground)
Jeff Wisnia
I agree with you on that providing as you say, the grounding is done on
the house side of any insulated coupling.
I was responding the the "buried thus same potential" statement, and
should have made mention of the what you just did, that an "extra"
ground between the panel ground and the in-house gas piping can't hurt,
and may even be required by code.
Jeff
Bill
service *and* grounding metal pipes in the house to prevent them from
becoming energized.
Grounding your electrical service...
In the old days when all pipes were metal, a cold water pipe ground would
do. But then there were problems with rubber grommets on water meters in
basements isolating the inside water piping from the outside water piping,
plastic piping run outside underground, and the ground wires becoming
disconnected or damaged say by a lawnmower or whatever.
So a better grounding solution was found. That is a cold water pipe ground
*and* a separate ground wire run from the electrical service panel to two
ground rods placed 6 ft. apart. (double back-up) Also a ground wire which
electrically connects the water pipe before the water meter to the water
pipe after the water meter.
Grounding metal pipes/objects in the house to prevent them from becoming
energized...
The idea of a 3rd prong on an electrical plug (ground wire) for an
electrical appliance is that the metal case of the appliance is grounded.
Then should there be a loose wire which touches the metal case and a person
walks up and touches the metal case, the person will not be electrocuted. Or
it would trip the breaker also protecting someone from being electrocuted.
Same thing with metal pipes or objects in a house. It is possible that a hot
water pipe (which might be isolated because of rubber grommets) could become
energized. So it is a good idea to run a ground wire from the cold water
pipe to the hot water pipe (in homes with metal piping).
Hot and cold water pipes are very accessible to people. Sinks, washing
machine, etc. Although gas pipes are not readily accessible to people, I
suppose it wouldn't hurt anything to ground this as well. If grounding the
gas pipe, I think running a ground wire from the gas pipe (house side of
meter) to the ground rods or to a cold water pipe ground would be best. I
don't think it would be a good idea to run a separate ground wire from the
electric panel to a gas pipe.
Also while grounding things in the house, it is very important to ground
metal objects around sinks and especially the bathroom. Like metal medicine
cabinets which have a built in light fixture. The heat from light bulbs can
cause insulation on wiring to melt away, then the metal cabinet can become
energized. In a bathroom you are in bare feet and might be turning on the
water while opening the medicine cabinet with the other hand - zap!
What can go wrong...
I have seen ground wires from main electrical service panels become
disconnected. There could be a situation where the ground wire(s) from the
main service panel become disconnected but someone ran a ground wire from
there to something else like a gas pipe. Then an appliance could malfunction
and this in turn could cause the gas pipe to become energized (if it was not
inadvertently grounded via an appliance). So for this reason it is *not* a
good idea to ground things such as this to a connection in the electrical
panel, but to ground them directly to a ground such as cold water pipe
and/or the ground rods.
Also you can get different "ground potentials". The ground at point A may be
slightly different electrically from the ground at point B. For this reason,
it is a good idea to ground everything at one point. That is run all ground
wires or bond various grounds to say the ground rods or a main grounding
point.
John Hines
>I read somewhere that one should also run a similar grounding wire to
>the natural gas pipe inlet but the electrician didn't do that.
>- Is it required by code?
No.
>- Is it recommended?
No, each utility does its own thing. Let the phone, and cable companies
run their own grounds, to the unified ground of the electrical system.
Grounding is much less a concern to the gas company with their
underground architecture than it is to the electric and phone companies
with their aerial ones.
>- Should one use the same gauge wire as for the water pipe?
Yes, same gauge wire for all your grounding runs.
>- Any special considerations?
The galvanic corrosion problem mentioned refers mixing the types of
materials on the pipes and wires, don't use a copper grounding clamp on
an iron pipe, and vice versa.
>- Can I daisy chain it from the water pipe or do I need to run a
> separate ground back to the panel?
A gas appliance, such as a furnace or range, that has an electrical
hookup, will ground the gas line(s) that are connected to it, so you
don't need to worry about it.
You need to "jump" over anything that is removable, such as the water
meter, and the water heater, so that the plumbing is always grounded
even if something is removed.
--
Silly sig to prevent isp ad
John Grabowski
> "John Grabowski" <jgra...@optonline.net> writes:
> > The correct term is "Bonded". The current code as written requires that
all
> > interior metal piping be bonded together. This can be accomplished by
using
> > #6 copper wire and approved clamps. It is common in New Jersey to bond
the
> > hot and cold water pipes together at the water heater location. It would
be
> > very easy to continue the bonding wire to the gas pipe at the water
heater.
> > Some jurisdictions do not require that the gas pipe also be bonded.
Some
> > gas companies do not want their pipes bonded. The electrical inspector
would
> > have noticed this and would have failed the job if it wasn't done
correctly.
> >
> > Did the electrician also install at least one (Preferably two) ground
rod?
>
> Do you need to explicitly bond the hot and cold pipes together using a
> copper wire jumper, or is there electrical continuity through the war
Usually there is continuity through the water heater, however it is not an
approved connection. You must use a #6 copper or #4 aluminum wire with
approved water pipe ground clamps.
>
> Also can I bond the gas pipe to the subpanel indirectly by just
> jumpering the gas water heater intake pipe to the cold water pipe
> entering the hot water heater?
That is how I do it. I usually run one continuous piece of bare wire
through each clamp on the hot water pipe, cold water pipe, and the gas pipe
on the water heater. When the inspector comes he goes straight for the water
heater and sees the bonding. If you have a hot water heating system and/or
a well, those pipes need to be bonded with the others as well. Try and keep
the clamps back far enough so that they will not interfere and do not have
to be removed to change out the water heater.
>
> Or is it required to directly bond the gas intake pipe at the meter to
> the panel ground using a single wire?
>
> Or is all of this unnecessary since the water heater itself provides a
> conducting path bonding the gas pipe system to the water pipe system
> (and then back through the water pipe to the panel ground)
In New Jersey the above bonding is required. Check with your local
electrical inspector to learn what is required in your area.
There should also be a jumper wire from one side of your water meter to the
other.
John Grabowski
I think that the water pipe grounding conductor should have been connected
at the same point as the ground rod conductor at the main breaker in order
to be code compliant.
Are the neutral conductor and the water pipe grounding conductor terminated
separately so as to be isolated electrically from each other in the 200 amp
subpanel?
Randy
John Grabowski wrote:
>> In New Jersey the above bonding is required. Check with your local
> electrical inspector to learn what is required in your area.
>
> There should also be a jumper wire from one side of your water meter to the
> other.
The advice to check with the local inspector (AHJ "Authority Having
Jurisdiction" in electrical-speak) is proably the best advice.
For those that want to read about it, EC&M (Electrical Contracting and
Maintenance Magazine) has this article -
http://ecmweb.com/mag/electric_code_basics_20/index.html
See also:
http://ecmweb.com/mag/electric_code_quandaries_17/index.html
Randy
sym
requiring only one ground rod we still use two but ground rods are
nearly worthless,certain conditions dont matter how many you drive down
you still dont get the 25 or less ohms to ground
blueman
> > and attached directly to the 200A main breaker (which is exterior to
> > the house in a box with the meter) and then a second copper wire
> > running from where the water source enters the house (old galvanized
> > 1" metal pipe) to the grounding strip within the 200A Subpanel.
> >
> > Service Entrance
> > 200A Main Breaker 200A Subpanel 100A Subpanel
> > Neurtral----->[----------]---------->[-----------]--------->[-----------]
> > [ | ] [ ] [ ]
> > Earth grnd -->[--------- ]---------->[-----------]--------->[-----------]
> > |
> > Water pipe -----|
> >
> > Note that all other subpanels feed off of the 200A Subpanel.
> > Note I have also shown where the neutral and grounds are bonded at the
> > main breaker.
> >
> > Does this make sense and is it legal?
>
>
> I think that the water pipe grounding conductor should have been connected
> at the same point as the ground rod conductor at the main breaker in order
> to be code compliant.
> Are the neutral conductor and the water pipe grounding conductor terminated
> separately so as to be isolated electrically from each other in the 200 amp
> subpanel?
Yes. That is what I was trying to show in the picture.
Tom The Great
>When we had our electric service upgraded, the electrician (as
>expected) ran a ground wire from the cold water main inlet to the
>ground on the panel.
>
>I read somewhere that one should also run a similar grounding wire to
>the natural gas pipe inlet but the electrician didn't do that.
>- Is it required by code?
>- Is it recommended?
>- Should one use the same gauge wire as for the water pipe?
>- Any special considerations?
>- Can I daisy chain it from the water pipe or do I need to run a
> separate ground back to the panel?
>
>Thanks
Only qualified allow qualified personnel work on electrical systems,
and follow all construction codes.
IMHO:
1. Required per 2005 NEC 250.104(B)
2. Required.
3. Per 250.104(b) use 250.122 as source of size.
4. Nothing special, but ensure you follow the NEC and local codes.
Give your local code enforcement inspector a call.
5. 250.104(B) tells you the options you have to bonding the metal
piping to. One includes bonding to the grouding electrode. If your
water pipe meets the requirements of 250.52(A)(1), then it is a
grounding electrode. So a water inlet piping can be used per code.
Now all this is using the NEC, and guessing about your local setup.
Only a qualified person working on site can help you. So this is not
a how-to, but a starting point for planning your operation. Research
with your local inspector, or AHJ.
later,
Bud--
The NEC has for a very long time required that water service pipes be
used as a grounding electrode. The current code REQUIRES that water
service pipe with metal pipe underground length of 10 ft or more be
included as a grounding electrode. Because this pipe may in the future
be replaced with plastic pipe, a supplemental electrode is required -
usually ground rod(s). For new construction use a Ufer ground/concrete
encased electrode. These electrodes are connected together to make a
grounding electrode system. The earthing resistance of a metal municipal
water system is lower than anything you can provide in a house.
bud--
Bud--
I agree. The NEC requires the water service pipe (if 10 ft or more
length underground) to be connected to the ground/neutral at the service
disconnect, along with the ground rod. Also connecting it to the ground
bar in the subpanel is OK.
bud--
Doug Miller
>The NEC has for a very long time required that water service pipes be
>used as a grounding electrode.
Note the word "a". Not "the".
> The current code REQUIRES that water
>service pipe with metal pipe underground length of 10 ft or more be
>included as a grounding electrode.
And it flatly prohibits using it as the *only* grounding electrode.
>Because this pipe may in the future
>be replaced with plastic pipe, a supplemental electrode is required -
>usually ground rod(s).
You have things backwards. The ground rod is the *primary* grounding
electrode, and the water piping is the supplemental electrode.
You're also wrong about the reason.
"Bonding of piping systems... the basic concept is to ground any metal pipes
that would present a hazard if energized by an electrical circuit." [National
Electrical Code Handbook, Section 250-80]
I don't know how to put it any simpler than that.
blueman
Well, I called our local gas company (Keyspan) and after a few
handoffs, I was told that they do NOT recommend grounding the gas
pipe. In fact, they say that if they see such a bridging on a service
call, they typically remove it.
Bud--
> In article <d1e97$44d4ba17$4213eb55$24...@DIALUPUSA.NET>, Bud-- <remove....@isp.com> wrote:
>
>
>>The NEC has for a very long time required that water service pipes be
>>used as a grounding electrode.
>
>
> Note the word "a". Not "the".
>
So what? Metal water service pipes (10 ft or longer) are REQUIRED by
250.50 to be a part of the grounding electrode system. This basic
requirement has been in the code for a very long time. Ground rods are
not required to be installed.
>
>>The current code REQUIRES that water
>>service pipe with metal pipe underground length of 10 ft or more be
>>included as a grounding electrode.
>
>
> And it flatly prohibits using it as the *only* grounding electrode.
>
So what? See reason.
>
>>Because this pipe may in the future
>>be replaced with plastic pipe, a supplemental electrode is required -
>>usually ground rod(s).
>
>
> You have things backwards. The ground rod is the *primary* grounding
> electrode, and the water piping is the supplemental electrode.
>
You have things backwards. With a water pipe a "supplemental" electrode
is required - 250.53-D-2. A "supplemental" ground rod is a strange name
for the "primary" grounding electrode.
Grounding rods are 'good' if their resistance to earth is 25 ohms or
less (or use 2 rods and it doesn't matter). Municipal water pipe earth
resistance is typically under 3 ohms.
Grounding electrode conductors to a water pipe must be up to 3/0 copper
for large services. For a ground rod they can be #6 Cu for any service.
For a Ufer ground #4 Cu.
A ground rod is not required, only another electrode. A much better
choice for new construction is a Ufer ground/concrete-encased electrode.
Presumably the NEC language has been changed to require Ufer grounds for
new construction (if there is a foundation or footing). [Are AHJs
requiring Ufer?] Ufer earth resistances are likely under 5 ohms.
> You're also wrong about the reason.
>
From the National Electrical Code Handbook - 1996 publushed by the NFPA
under 250.81(a) [in 1999 this morphed into 2005-250.52-A-1]
“The requirement to supplement the metal water pipe is based on the
practice of using plastic pipe for replacement when the original metal
water pipe fails. This leaves the system without a grounding electrode
unless a supplementary electrode is provided.”
(Note that the ground rod is a "supplementary" electrode.)
> "Bonding of piping systems... the basic concept is to ground any metal pipes
> that would present a hazard if energized by an electrical circuit." [National
> Electrical Code Handbook, Section 250-80]
>
If the water service pipe is plastic and there is interior metal water
pipe it is required to be bonded by 250.80. If the water service pipe is
metal (10 ft...) it is REQUIRED by 250.50 to be a part of the grounding
electrode system and 250.80 is irrelevant.
> I don't know how to put it any simpler than that.
>
I don't know how to put it any simpler than that.
bud--
Doug Miller
>Doug Miller wrote:
>
>> In article <d1e97$44d4ba17$4213eb55$24...@DIALUPUSA.NET>, Bud--
> <remove....@isp.com> wrote:
>>
>>
>>>The NEC has for a very long time required that water service pipes be
>>>used as a grounding electrode.
>>
>>
>> Note the word "a". Not "the".
>>
>
>So what? Metal water service pipes (10 ft or longer) are REQUIRED by
>250.50 to be a part of the grounding electrode system. This basic
>requirement has been in the code for a very long time.
"A part", yes -- but it is not permitted to be the *only* grounding electrode.
> Ground rods are
>not required to be installed.
Technically true, but misleading. You may use a ground rod, a ground plate, a
buried wire ring, or the metal framing of the building, as the *only*
grounding electrode. But not a water pipe.
>
>>
>>>The current code REQUIRES that water
>>>service pipe with metal pipe underground length of 10 ft or more be
>>>included as a grounding electrode.
>>
>>
>> And it flatly prohibits using it as the *only* grounding electrode.
>>
>
>So what? See reason.
>
>>
>>>Because this pipe may in the future
>>>be replaced with plastic pipe, a supplemental electrode is required -
>>>usually ground rod(s).
>>
>>
>> You have things backwards. The ground rod is the *primary* grounding
>> electrode, and the water piping is the supplemental electrode.
>>
>
>You have things backwards. With a water pipe a "supplemental" electrode
>is required - 250.53-D-2. A "supplemental" ground rod is a strange name
>for the "primary" grounding electrode.
The Code permits using a ground rod, alone, as the grounding electrode. It
prohibits using a water pipe, alone, as the grounding electrode. Quibbling
over which is "primary" and which is "supplemental" doesn't change those
facts.
>
>Grounding rods are 'good' if their resistance to earth is 25 ohms or
>less (or use 2 rods and it doesn't matter). Municipal water pipe earth
>resistance is typically under 3 ohms.
Irrelevant. The Code does not permit a water pipe to be the only grounding
electrode.
Again:
>
>> "Bonding of piping systems... the basic concept is to ground any metal pipes
>> that would present a hazard if energized by an electrical circuit." [National
>> Electrical Code Handbook, Section 250-80]
I'm not sure why you're having so much trouble grasping this.
Bud--
Your original statement was:
> Metal water piping is bonded to the electrical system grounding
> electrodes to ensure that the metal water piping cannot become live,
> *not* to provide a ground for the electrical system
The underground water service pipe is REQUIRED by the 250.50 to be
included as a grounding electrode. It has been thus fire was invented.
Bonding requirements under 250.104-A (not 250.80) have been already met
under the more stringent 250.50. The code clearly requires the water
service pipe to be a grounding electrode. The water pipe clearly
provides “A GROUND FOR THE ELECTRICAL SYSTEM.”
If 250.104 was removed, the connection would still have to be made. If
the water service pipe was plastic 250.104 would prevail.
Both Brad and AZNomad said the water pipe was a grounding electode. So
far no one agrees with you.
You said:
> The ground rod is the *primary* grounding
> electrode, and the water piping is the supplemental electrode.
250.53-D-2. requires a "supplemental" electrode - your ground rod.
The water pipe is clearly superior based on the size of grounding
electrode conductor required for each electrode and by typical earth
resistances.
You said:
> You're also wrong about the reason
The NFPA Handbook said the rod was there because the water pipe might be
replaced in the future with plastic with the rod as a "supplementary"
fall-back.
I'm not sure why you're having so much trouble grasping this.
bud--
Doug Miller
>Assume underground metal water service pipe (10ft...) and a ground rod.
>
>Your original statement was:
>
> > Metal water piping is bonded to the electrical system grounding
> > electrodes to ensure that the metal water piping cannot become live,
> > *not* to provide a ground for the electrical system
Yep. And that's correct.
The water pipe -- by itself -- is not permitted by Code to be used to ground
the electrical system, and hasn't been for many years.
It's bonded to the *other* grounding electrode(s) to ensure that the water
piping is always at zero potential with respect to the electrical ground.
Not sure why you're having such a hard time grasping that concept...
Bud--
> In article <22cab$44d6791d$4213ea37$93...@DIALUPUSA.NET>, Bud-- <remove....@isp.com> wrote:
>
>>Assume underground metal water service pipe (10ft...) and a ground rod.
>>
>>Your original statement was:
>>
>>
>>>Metal water piping is bonded to the electrical system grounding
>>>electrodes to ensure that the metal water piping cannot become live,
>>>*not* to provide a ground for the electrical system
>
>
> Yep. And that's correct.
>
> The water pipe -- by itself -- is not permitted by Code to be used to ground
> the electrical system, and hasn't been for many years.
>
2005 NEC 250.50 "All grounding electrodes as described in 250.52(A)(1)
through (A)(6) shall be bonded together to to form the grounding
electrode system."
250.52(A)(1) "Metal Underground Water Pipe. A metal underground water
pipe indirect contact with the earth for 3.0 m (10 ft) or more...."
100(1) [definitions] "Grounding Electrode. A device that establishes an
electrical connection to the earth."
If you are having trouble intrepreting: All grounding electrodes
including Metal Underground Water Pipe shall be bonded together to to
form the grounding electrode system that establishes an electrical
connection to the earth.
What do you think it means?
Can you read?
bud--
Doug Miller
You're the one who has trouble reading, not me. I never said that metal water
pipes shouldn't be part of the grounding electrode system -- I said that metal
water pipes are not permitted to be the *only* grounding electrode, and that's
a fact.
It's also a fact that the reason for bonding metal water pipes to the other
grounding electrode(s) is to ensure that the plumbing cannot ever become live,
no matter what might go wrong with the electrical system.
Sorry you're having such a hard time understanding.
Randy
More explaination...
EC&M
Beyond the 2005 NEC Changes: Art. 250 Grounding and Bonding
By Steven Owen, National Code Seminars
http://ecmweb.com/mag/electric_beyond_nec_changes/index.html
[see link for article]
Code Quandaries
By Mike Holt, NEC Consultant
http://ecmweb.com/mag/electric_stumped_code_25/index.html
[excerpt - see above link for full article]
Changes to 250.50 were made to clarify that, where any of the following
electrodes "are present" they must be bonded together to create the
grounding electrode system.
Underground metal water pipe [250.52(A)(1)]
Metal frame of the building or structure [250.52(A)(2)]
Concrete-encased foundation or footer steel [250.52(A)(3)]
Ground ring [250.52(A)(4)]
Ground rod [250.52(A)(5)]
Grounding plate [250.52(A)(6)]
The intent of the change to 250.50 (wording changed from "if
available" to "are present") and the addition of the exception
was meant to require the use of concrete-encased foundation or footer
steel as part of the building or structure grounding electrode system
in new construction (if they are present), since they are considered
"present" before they pour concrete.
Randy
Bud--
Your fact is not consistent with what you said:
“The electrical system has its own, *separate* grounding electrode.
Metal water piping is bonded to the electrical system grounding
electrodes to ensure that the metal water piping cannot become live,
*not* to provide a ground for the electrical system.”
I do not see how "*not* to provide a ground for the electrical system"
can be read other than the water pipe is not to be a grounding electrode
and the system grounding is provided by the system's "own, *separate*
grounding electrode."
bud--
Doug Miller
>Your fact is not consistent with what you said:
>“The electrical system has its own, *separate* grounding electrode.
>Metal water piping is bonded to the electrical system grounding
>electrodes to ensure that the metal water piping cannot become live,
>*not* to provide a ground for the electrical system.”
>
>I do not see how "*not* to provide a ground for the electrical system"
>can be read other than the water pipe is not to be a grounding electrode
>and the system grounding is provided by the system's "own, *separate*
>grounding electrode."
It's real simple: the water pipe is bonded to the other grounding electrodes,
not to provide a ground for the electrical system -- that's what the *other*
electrodes are there for, remember? -- but to ensure that the metal water
piping is always at the same potential as the electrical system's ground and
therefore cannot become live no matter *what* might go wrong electrically.
I'm sorry that you're having such a hard time grasping this... but you really
need to spend a little more time educating yourself before you post again.
Bud--
>
>
> More explaination...
>
> EC&M
>
> Beyond the 2005 NEC Changes: Art. 250 Grounding and Bonding
> By Steven Owen, National Code Seminars
> http://ecmweb.com/mag/electric_beyond_nec_changes/index.html
> [see link for article]
>
Particularly clear info on Ufer ground in new construction. Thanks
> Code Quandaries
> By Mike Holt, NEC Consultant
> http://ecmweb.com/mag/electric_stumped_code_25/index.html
>
> [excerpt - see above link for full article]
> Changes to 250.50 were made to clarify that, where any of the following
> electrodes "are present" they must be bonded together to create the
> grounding electrode system.
>
> Underground metal water pipe [250.52(A)(1)]
>
> Metal frame of the building or structure [250.52(A)(2)]
>
> Concrete-encased foundation or footer steel [250.52(A)(3)]
To me this wording is clearer than "concrete encased electrode", which
to me implies that connection to the steel has been made available.
Nothing else in the list is named as an "electrode".
>
> Ground ring [250.52(A)(4)]
>
> Ground rod [250.52(A)(5)]
>
> Grounding plate [250.52(A)(6)]
>
>
> The intent of the change to 250.50 (wording changed from "if
> available" to "are present") and the addition of the exception
> was meant to require the use of concrete-encased foundation or footer
> steel as part of the building or structure grounding electrode system
> in new construction (if they are present), since they are considered
> "present" before they pour concrete.
>
IMHO the code should make this even more explicit. Good requirement though.
>
>
> Randy
>
Tom Horne, Electrician
"250.50 Grounding Electrode System.
If available on the premises at each building or structure served, each
item in 250.52(A)(1) through (A)(6) shall be bonded together to form the
grounding electrode system.
250.52 Grounding Electrodes.
(A) Electrodes Permitted for Grounding.
(1) Metal Underground Water Pipe. A metal underground water pipe in
direct contact with the earth for 3.0 m (10 ft) or more (including any
metal well casing effectively bonded to the pipe) and electrically
continuous (or made electrically continuous by bonding around insulating
joints or insulating pipe) to the points of connection of the grounding
electrode conductor and the bonding conductors. Interior metal water
piping located more than 1.52 m (5 ft) from the point of entrance to the
building shall not be used as a part of the grounding electrode system
or as a conductor to interconnect electrodes that are part of the
grounding electrode system." Copyright 2002 National Fire Protection
Association
Now who is it that needs to educate themselves?
--
Tom Horne
"This alternating current stuff is just a fad. It is much too dangerous
for general use." Thomas Alva Edison
Doug Miller
I hope you're not contending that metal underground water piping is permitted
to be the *sole* grounding electrode...
>
>Now who is it that needs to educate themselves?
Geez, *another* one with reading comprehension problems. I have never disputed
that metal underground water piping is required to be part of the grounding
electrode system.
The whole argument is over *why*.
Thomas D. Horne, FF EMT
> In article <YwrCg.6565$0e5....@newsread4.news.pas.earthlink.net>, hor...@mindspring.com wrote:
>> Doug Miller wrote:
>>> In article <d900a$44d971d4$4213eb17$7...@DIALUPUSA.NET>, Bud--
>> <remove....@isp.com> wrote:
>>>> Your fact is not consistent with what you said:
>>>> electrodes to ensure that the metal water piping cannot become live,
Is your position on why so as to keep it at the same potential as the
other electrodes? Yes or no no dodging.
My position on why is that it is the best electrode available on
premises served by large underground metallic water systems. In a
building with no internal metallic plumbing supplied by a utility that
requires copper laterals; many do; why do we still need to connect the
Grounding Electrode Conductor to that piping. How is it to become
energized in the absence of interior metallic piping? Why does the code
require that the portion of the GEC that is the connection to the
underground metal water piping be sized according to the table rather
than limited in size like the one to the Concrete Encased Electrode,
Ground Ring, Driven Rods, and so forth. It is because it is a superior
electrode to any of those others. How many Grounding Electrode Systems
have you measured for impedance to ground? How many have you installed?
I cannot answer such questions my self because I lost track decades
ago. In areas served by metallic public water systems I've never found
an electrode with a lower impedance to ground than the metallic water
service lateral from the metal water mains. That includes the ground
rings and genuine Ufers installed at radio stations and the deep driven
rod arrays installed at telegraphic fire alarm receiving stations.
--
Tom Horne
Well we aren't no thin blue heroes and yet we aren't no blackguards to.
We're just working men and woman most remarkable like you.
Doug Miller
>Doug Miller wrote:
>> In article <YwrCg.6565$0e5....@newsread4.news.pas.earthlink.net>,
> hor...@mindspring.com wrote:
>>> Doug Miller wrote:
>>>> In article <d900a$44d971d4$4213eb17$7...@DIALUPUSA.NET>, Bud--
>>> <remove....@isp.com> wrote:
>>>>> Your fact is not consistent with what you said:
>>>>> electrodes to ensure that the metal water piping cannot become live,
I guess you haven't been following the thread too closely, because I've stated
that quite explicitly a number of times -- even quoted a portion of the NEC
Handbook that says exactly that.
Bud--
or maybe he is a member of w_'s grounding cult.
bud--
Tom Horne, Electrician
Thanks Bud. I try to remember not to wrestle with pigs. You just get
filthy dirty and the pig enjoys it.
safecsst
- Is it required by code? YES but the appliance ground is usually used as the bonding means, so that satisfies the code.
- Is it recommended? YES especially if you have CSST or flexible appliance connectors.
- Wire size? Most use a 6 gage bare grounding wire - stranded if its available.
- Daisy Chain? You should be able to daisy chain from water pipe if its electrically continuous.
Uncle Monster
> Click Fraud wrote:
> > spam...@milmac.com (Doug Miller) wrote:
> >
> >>The water piping is bonded to the electrical ground in order to insure that
> >>the _water_piping_ has a true electrical ground -- IOW, to prevent the water
> >>piping from becoming live in the event of an electrical fault somewhere.
> >
> >
> > My mother in law's dishwasher developed a short to the incoming water
> > pipe. Most of her water piping is PVC, but some of the outside parts
> > are metal, and NOT bonded to ground.
> >
> > We discovered this one day when she went to water the lawn while the
> > dishwasher was running. She reached for the faucet, and ZAP!
> > Fortunately, it was not lethal.
>
> Did you find out HOW the dishwasher shorted to the inlet pipe? Seems a
> bit hard to fathom unless whoever installed the wiring to the dishwaher
> didn't ground it properly.
>
> A plastic bodied water inlet solenoid valve might have insulated the
> inlet pipe from the rest of the dishwasher, but how did a switched hot
> lead contact the pipe? Maybe the solenoid valve's coil developed a short
> to it's case, which was electrically connected to the piping, but not to
> the rest of the machine.
>
> My curious mind wants to know...
>
> Jeff
> --
I think it really depends on the mineral content and salinity of the water as to whether or not it will conduct electricity. o_O
[8~{} Uncle Water Monster
gfre...@aol.com
energized and this normally happens via the EGC in the equipment
served.
Water pipe shall be bonded using table 250-66, the same as any other
ground electrode. (ie: 4ga for a typical 200a service)
John
Dont you have to bond the gas line to the panel.
--
for full context, visit https://www.homeownershub.com/maintenance/grounding-wire-from-panel-to-gas-pipe-133432-.htm
trader_4
to the electric system ground.
gfre...@aol.com
likely to energize the gas pipe so that will typically be the furnace
blower or electric igniter circuit in ranges, dryers or water heaters.
As long as the hub in the valve where the pipe is connected in the
appliance is grounded that usually meets the intent of the code.
trader_4
it needs to be bonded to the service electrode system.
https://www.ncdoi.com/OSFM/Engineering_and_Codes/Documents/Interpretations4/2014%20Electrical/250.104%28B%29%20-%20Bonding%20of%20Gas%20Piping.pdf
Like many things, there is some interpretation. Like in the code where they
say that any metal piping that could be energized or something to that effect.
What does that mean? If it's a section of metal piping that's not connected
to any appliance, it's partially
exposed, does that qualify as yes, but if it's concealed and you can't
easily touch it, then it's a no?
I assume if it connects to any appliance, etc that is powered, then it's
a yes.
gfre...@aol.com
electrocution hazard, they are afraid lightning might actually blow
CSST open if you get an arc. (Hence the black stuff that is arc
resistant)
I really do not have much experience with it because the state did not
use it at all. Everything was galvanized rigid gas pipe.
bud--
galvanized is not generally used. Also includes copper tubing with flare
connections and brazed copper pipe.
Gas pipe is not allowed to be used as an earthing electrode, which may
be why the NEC does not require bonding of gas pipe similar to water pipe.
Information on CSST from a few years ago from an electrical inspector
who did some research:
CSST has a very thin wall. There are a few ways a high voltage can
momentarily develop between gas pipe and the electrical system. That can
cause an arc, which can result in a hole in the very thin-wall CSST. If
you are lucky that will just cause a fire. Because of fires,
manufacturers now require CSST be bonded to the electrical earthing
system Manufacturers have different requirements for bonding. The
suggestion was for electricians to not do the bonding - then they will
not be involved in the lawsuit. (Bonding is not required by the NEC.) If
you do bonding, follow the instructions from the manufacturer EXACTLY.
System bonded using the manufacturers requirements have caused fires.
IMHO CSST is not a good product. Why is an "arc-resistant" version
necessary? I wouldn't trust the arc-resistant stuff either.
Lightning transients have high frequency current components. The
inductance of a bond wire is likely much more important than the
resistance. Bonding, particularly where the path length gets long, may
not be as effective as it would seem. As with phone/cable/other, having
the CSST entry near the electrical entry is likely a good idea.
Scott Lurndal
>On 8/3/2019 12:01 PM, gfre...@aol.com wrote:
>> On Sat, 3 Aug 2019 08:56:24 -0700 (PDT), trader_4
>
>galvanized is not generally used.
the gas line during installation which may end up clogging
the burner orifices or valves.
>Gas pipe is not allowed to be used as an earthing electrode, which may
gasses.
Clare Snyder
galvanized for gas. If an inspector found 1 piece of galvanized the
gas was locked off untill it was replaced. Guys sometimes got around
it by painting the gasline yellow and hiding the galvanize.
Galvanized is now allowed.
All gas lines must be bonded to the electrical ground and metallic
water pipes - and water meters, softeners and water heaters need to
have bonding wires across them.
gfre...@aol.com
wrote:
pipe (less loose plating allowed) but it is all I ever see here.
"Black iron" quickly becomes "Red iron" here.