ARGON vs VACUUM in double pane windows
nucleus
constructed using a gas such as argon between the panes. i need
to replace all of my old aluminum double pane windows, about half of
which have leaked and have interior fogging (condensation).
HOWEVER, one of the local companies here, uses a VACUUM
between the double panes, instead of ARGON.
my question is: wouldn't a vacuum be more likely to leak moisture
inside, over time, than a double pane window constructed using
an inert gas inside?
John Gilmer
"nucleus" <rose1...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:f10ed472-3326-4d00...@j8g2000yql.googlegroups.com...
To an approximately, the diffusion of moisture or the filler gas or just
plain old air just depends on the relative concentration of the gas (vapor)
in the atmosphere compared to that inside the window.
A seal that can maintain a vacuum is less likely to permit significant
moisture than a seal that's barely "gud enuf" to keep the argon in and the
water vapor out. Older designs included some moisture absorbing stuff in
the metal channel around the perimeter so that any water vapor than gets in
will be absorbed before it can coat the inside of the window and be noticed.
I find myself questioning just how practical a true vacuum would be. With
a vacuum, the inside pressure is zero PSIA while the outside pressure is
about 15 PSIA. (That's POUNDS/sq it.) If your window is only 12" x 12"
there would be a TON of force pressing the two sheets together.
I suspect that your local company isn't giving you all the details.
cl...@snyder.on.ca
Don't even think about wasting your money on a thermal unit without
argon fill. The incremental cost is negligible, and generally the
argon units outlast "vacuum" units by a significant amount -
particularly if they are "warm edge" or "thermal spacer" units with a
triple mastic seal.
Robert Neville
>Don't even think about wasting your money on a thermal unit without
>argon fill. The incremental cost is negligible, and generally the
>argon units outlast "vacuum" units by a significant amount -
>particularly if they are "warm edge" or "thermal spacer" units with a
>triple mastic seal.
I would just point out that argon fill in windows isn't used when the installed
elevation is somewhere above 5000' or so... Furthermore, the use of Argon in
warm climates is not of much value. Unfortunately, we don't all live above the
49th parallel :)
cl...@snyder.on.ca
It's not a true vacuum, but it is reduced pressure.
And the companies that do good argon units, its not "gud enuf" -
theirs are usually the higher quality stuff. Joe Blow can build an
atmospheric unit in his back room -
cl...@snyder.on.ca
wrote:
Nor do I. Nor do about 80% of canadians.
Argon fill is still good in warm climates - you DO air condition,
don't you? The difference in temperature between the inside and
outside is about the same in Phoenix as it is in Toronto or Kitchener.
Tony Hwang
I have mixture of both sealed units. Been replacing leaky vaccuum ones
with exactly identical looking one but with Argon filled one. Latter
is doing better job. Price difference minimal.
Pete C.
Joe Blow can build an argon filled unit in his back room just as easily.
There is nothing magic and no exotic equipment needed to purge the
window unit with argon gas. The only additional equipment needed vs. a
"vacuum" window is a cylinder of argon and a regulator / flowmeter.
ransley
I have generic non argon that 10% are bad in 3 years. I have Pella and
Anderson low E argon that are fine with a 20 yr warranty. I have seen
at HD lifetime warranty glass. But a warranty can be void from day one
if windows are not Plumb, Level and Square installed, Pella and
Anderson allow 1/8" tolerance. I had two installed wrong and out of
warranty before I paid the guy. Get a good warranty, check plumb,
level and square Before you pay the guy. If you have a question call
the window maker, I had a rep sent out. I would opt for Low E argon.
www.energystar.gov has window info, research before you buy.
hal...@aol.com
you could just replace the sealed glass units far cheaper than new
windows, if you wanted too
Oren
>Argon fill is still good in warm climates - you DO air condition,
>don't you? The difference in temperature between the inside and
>outside is about the same in Phoenix as it is in Toronto or Kitchener.
Cost of Argon is pennies on the dollar. In the Mojave Desert the
little cost is worth it.
Defer:
Does argon gas in a window refract sun light in the summer, out of the
house and keep heat in the house in winter?
Smitty Two
Oren <Or...@127.0.0.1> wrote:
Only if you stick my special "Eden Magnets" to the glass - one inside
and one outside, of the upper left corner of each pane. You get an
entire pack , enough to do ten windows, for three easy payments of
19.95, plus s/h. Guaranteed to polarize the argon molecules to reduce
heat loss by up to 85%. Save hundreds every year on heating / cooling
costs.
nicks...@ece.villanova.edu
>Does argon gas in a window refract sun light in the summer, out of the
>house and keep heat in the house in winter?
No, but it insulates better than air.
My 8 new site-built low-mass sunspace "windows" are 4'-wide x 16'-tall
twin layers of $1/ft^2 10-mil HP92W polycarbonate film on flat 1x3 frames
with 3M 4432 double-sided vinyl tape and 1/8"x3/4" painted steel cap strips
and silicone caulk at the corners.
Each panel has 2 1/8" ID polyethylene tubes at the bottom. They are
inflated in series with DOT push tubing couplers (truck parts) to 0.15" of
water with dry air from a $10 12V tire compressor (PV-powered, of course)
in a boxful of Tyvek clay desiccant bags, with a Dwyer 1710-0 pressure
switch, for less wrinkling and wind fatigue.
It looks like they don't leak at all (we tested them with a soap bubble
solution.) If the compressor never runs again, we plan to fill them with
argon.
Nick
b.s.su...@gmail.com
2nd if vacuum exist,than no condensation at all because there's no air to condense. To your point about leaking,this is why it's taking so long to perfect,and my guess is they'll end up placing a visual device to let you know when the vac has left.
mike
14.7 psi doesn't sound like much until you figger that it takes less than
a 12" x 12" pane to experience a TON of force.
Once you start putting internal supports, buyers start to object.
Stormin Mormon
to run power lines to each window for the vacuum?
And it's been since Feb 12, 2009, maybe now the windows have solar power
vac, and don't need electricity?
--
.
Christopher A. Young
Learn about Jesus
www.lds.org
.
RobertMacy
wrote:
>> ...snip...
> to run power lines to each window for the vacuum?
>
> And it's been since Feb 12, 2009, maybe now the windows have solar power
> vac, and don't need electricity?
>
But reminded me...living in AZ with metal frame windows and those special
shaded double pane windows that still let in heat! The ground gets super
heated by the sun and radiates in like a furnace. Worse the metal frame
conducts the heat right through! stupid beyond belief. You'd think that
this day and age, they'd be using carbon composites for frames. Anybody
know of any window frame company making such?
Oren
<robert...@gmail.com> wrote:
>But reminded me...living in AZ with metal frame windows and those special
>shaded double pane windows that still let in heat! The ground gets super
>heated by the sun and radiates in like a furnace. Worse the metal frame
>conducts the heat right through! stupid beyond belief. You'd think that
>this day and age, they'd be using carbon composites for frames. Anybody
>know of any window frame company making such?
metal without nearly burring yourself.
Andersen makes a composite window (Fibrex�), but not using carbon.
<http://www.renewalbyandersen.com/why-choose-us/superior-performance.aspx>
RobertMacy
> On Wed, 11 Jun 2014 07:15:10 -0700, RobertMacy
> <robert...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> But reminded me...living in AZ with metal frame windows and those
>> special
>> shaded double pane windows that still let in heat! The ground gets super
>> heated by the sun and radiates in like a furnace. Worse the metal frame
>> conducts the heat right through! stupid beyond belief. You'd think that
>> this day and age, they'd be using carbon composites for frames. Anybody
>> know of any window frame company making such?
>
> You're correct on metal frames in the desert. You can't touch the
> metal without nearly burring yourself.
>
>
> <http://www.renewalbyandersen.com/why-choose-us/superior-performance.aspx>
Thanks for that URL!
Oren
<robert...@gmail.com> wrote:
>On Wed, 11 Jun 2014 09:22:29 -0700, Oren <Or...@127.0.0.1> wrote:
>
>> On Wed, 11 Jun 2014 07:15:10 -0700, RobertMacy
>> <robert...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>>> But reminded me...living in AZ with metal frame windows and those
>>> special
>>> shaded double pane windows that still let in heat! The ground gets super
>>> heated by the sun and radiates in like a furnace. Worse the metal frame
>>> conducts the heat right through! stupid beyond belief. You'd think that
>>> this day and age, they'd be using carbon composites for frames. Anybody
>>> know of any window frame company making such?
>>
>> You're correct on metal frames in the desert. You can't touch the
>> metal without nearly burring yourself.
>>
>> <http://www.renewalbyandersen.com/why-choose-us/superior-performance.aspx>
>
>Thanks for that URL!
Andersen were a composite frame. IIRC, it was like a fiberglass
composite or such.
cl...@snyder.on.ca
in the business.
gregz
condition of argon filled panes. The glass either contracts inward or goes
out. You can see that in the reflection from outside the house.
Greg