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Re: Wright's Brass Polish
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Frank
Mar 28, 2022, 8:45:11 AM3/28/22
to
On 3/28/2022 8:04 AM, Peter wrote:
> What's in it?
>
> Is it just sand?
> It's a pinkish watery fluid.
>
> Doesn't seem to work on the brass I tested it on.
> Is there something better for brass?
>
> What's the chemical that cleans tarnished brass best?
What I often do with questions like this is to Google the product SDS:
https://www.msdsdigital.com/wrights-brass-polish-msds
You will not get complete composition and usually just ingredients that
have safety issues.
> What's in it?
>
> Is it just sand?
> It's a pinkish watery fluid.
>
> Doesn't seem to work on the brass I tested it on.
> Is there something better for brass?
>
> What's the chemical that cleans tarnished brass best?
What I often do with questions like this is to Google the product SDS:
https://www.msdsdigital.com/wrights-brass-polish-msds
You will not get complete composition and usually just ingredients that
have safety issues.
Cindy Hamilton
Mar 28, 2022, 8:58:44 AM3/28/22
to
On 2022-03-28, Peter <occassional...@nospam.co.uk> wrote:
> What's in it?
>
> Is it just sand?
> It's a pinkish watery fluid.
What did the directions say? I'm confident that "polish" will require
> What's in it?
>
> Is it just sand?
> It's a pinkish watery fluid.
addition of "elbow grease".
> Doesn't seem to work on the brass I tested it on.
> Is there something better for brass?
>
> What's the chemical that cleans tarnished brass best?
<https://www.bobvila.com/articles/best-brass-cleaner/>
--
Cindy Hamilton
rbowman
Mar 28, 2022, 12:32:40 PM3/28/22
to
On 03/28/2022 06:04 AM, Peter wrote:
> What's in it?
>
> Is it just sand?
> It's a pinkish watery fluid.
>
> What's in it?
>
> Is it just sand?
> It's a pinkish watery fluid.
>
> Doesn't seem to work on the brass I tested it on.
> Is there something better for brass?
>
> What's the chemical that cleans tarnished brass best?
>
Vinegar or ammonia. There is some discussion by handloaders whether
> Is there something better for brass?
>
> What's the chemical that cleans tarnished brass best?
>
ammonia can cause stress cracking in cartridge cases.
If the brass is dirty along with surface corrosion a little dish washing
detergent will help.
Peeler
Mar 28, 2022, 12:54:01 PM3/28/22
to
On Mon, 28 Mar 2022 10:32:32 -0600, lowbrowwoman, the endlessly driveling,
troll-feeding, senile idiot, blabbered again:
> Vinegar or ammonia.
I'd like to stuff a load of that in your big gob, senile bigmouth! <G>
--
Gossiping "lowbrowwoman" about herself:
"Usenet is my blog... I don't give a damn if anyone ever reads my posts
but they are useful in marshaling [sic] my thoughts."
MID: <iteioi...@mid.individual.net>
troll-feeding, senile idiot, blabbered again:
> Vinegar or ammonia.
I'd like to stuff a load of that in your big gob, senile bigmouth! <G>
--
Gossiping "lowbrowwoman" about herself:
"Usenet is my blog... I don't give a damn if anyone ever reads my posts
but they are useful in marshaling [sic] my thoughts."
MID: <iteioi...@mid.individual.net>
Cindy Hamilton
Mar 28, 2022, 3:40:49 PM3/28/22
to
On 2022-03-28, Peter <occassional...@nospam.co.uk> wrote:
> Cindy Hamilton <hami...@devnull.com> wrote:
>
>> What did the directions say? I'm confident that "polish" will require
>> addition of "elbow grease".
>
> They imply you put it on. Wait a few minutes. Then wash it off.
>
>> What did the directions say? I'm confident that "polish" will require
>> addition of "elbow grease".
>
> It doesn't work. Even when I add the toothbrush to the chemistry mix.
> But I want to know how it doesn't work. :-()
>
> Well, maybe it does work.
> Just not in this case.
>
> So I need to get stronger chemistry.
> But what?
You don't necessarily need strong chemistry. Get a brass polish with an
abrasive in it, and rub.
>>> Doesn't seem to work on the brass I tested it on.
>>> Is there something better for brass?
>>>
>>> What's the chemical that cleans tarnished brass best?
>>
>> If you're a shortcut kind of guy, have a look at this:
>>
>> <https://www.bobvila.com/articles/best-brass-cleaner/>
>
> They are kitchen references. For moms who don't know chemistry.
> Almost every one says lemon juice & salt but doesn't say why.
> Many say vinegar and salt and baking soda but again, they don't say why.
>
> I'm trying to figure out the why.
>
> The MSDS from Frank shows that there's an acid and a base.
> But it's not vinegar and baking soda.
>
> It's Ammonium Hydroxide & Oxalic Acid.
> The question is how it works?
Do you want to fart around with the chemistry, or do you want shiny
brass?
Is Brasso available where you are?
--
Cindy Hamilton
Frank
Mar 28, 2022, 7:05:02 PM3/28/22
to
On 3/28/2022 2:13 PM, Peter wrote:
> container is wear gloves and don't get it in your eyes (which would apply to
> almost everything as well). So I didn't think it contained all that much.
>
> But your PDF says otherwise although the percentages are missing.
> https://www.msdsdigital.com/system/files/Wrights%20Brass%20Polish.pdf
>
> Ammonium Hydroxide (CAS 1336-21-6)
> Isopropanol (CAS 67-30-0)
> Microcrystaline Silica (CAS 14808-60-7)
> Oxalic Acid (CAS 6153-56-6)
>
> The sand "grit" is obvious why it's there and how it works.
> The "alcohol" is perhaps there as a solvent for greases and soiling.
>
> Then there's the base ((NH4)(OH)) which is a solution of ammonia in water
> which forms the hydroxy salt of the ammonium ion in water as the ammonia
> deprotonates some of the water forming an ammonium cation (NH4+) and a
> Hydroxide ion (OH- ). In solution it's mostly a mixture of water (H2O) and
> ammonia (NH3) in large quantities while the ammonium and hydroxide ions are
> found in smaller quantities. This is confusing.
>
> Then there's the oxalic acid (C2H2O4 or (COOH)2 or HOOCCOOH).
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oxalic_acid
>
> Oxalic acid is apparently a weak acid that will only partially ionize.
> Oxalic acid has two acidic protons. The initial ionization yields HC2O4-, a
> weak acid that will ionize as well. https://byjus.com/oxalic-acid-formula/
>
> Apparently it's rather hydrophilic which may work in conjunction with the OH
> groups in the Ammonium Hydroxide (for all I know).
> https://collegedunia.com/exams/oxalic-acid-formula-properties-structure-and-uses-articleid-2581
>
> Most of the above was cut and pasted from the references for a starting
> point. But I can't make much sense of how it works yet, Frank.
>
> Can you?
>
Ammonia dissolves the copper oxide film.
Oxalic acid may solubilize some of the metal salts. It is the main
ingredient in Iron Out for cleaning toilet bowls and the like.
Material safety data sheets seldom disclose exact percent of an
ingredient unless required by law and as mentioned not all ingredients
need be disclosed.
> Frank <fr...@frank.net> wrote:
>
>> What I often do with questions like this is to Google the product SDS:
>>
>> https://www.msdsdigital.com/wrights-brass-polish-msds
>>
>> You will not get complete composition and usually just ingredients that
>> have safety issues.
>
> Thanks for that MSDS which I didn't look up because all it says on the
>
>> What I often do with questions like this is to Google the product SDS:
>>
>> https://www.msdsdigital.com/wrights-brass-polish-msds
>>
>> You will not get complete composition and usually just ingredients that
>> have safety issues.
>
> container is wear gloves and don't get it in your eyes (which would apply to
> almost everything as well). So I didn't think it contained all that much.
>
> But your PDF says otherwise although the percentages are missing.
> https://www.msdsdigital.com/system/files/Wrights%20Brass%20Polish.pdf
>
> Ammonium Hydroxide (CAS 1336-21-6)
> Isopropanol (CAS 67-30-0)
> Microcrystaline Silica (CAS 14808-60-7)
> Oxalic Acid (CAS 6153-56-6)
>
> The sand "grit" is obvious why it's there and how it works.
> The "alcohol" is perhaps there as a solvent for greases and soiling.
>
> Then there's the base ((NH4)(OH)) which is a solution of ammonia in water
> which forms the hydroxy salt of the ammonium ion in water as the ammonia
> deprotonates some of the water forming an ammonium cation (NH4+) and a
> Hydroxide ion (OH- ). In solution it's mostly a mixture of water (H2O) and
> ammonia (NH3) in large quantities while the ammonium and hydroxide ions are
> found in smaller quantities. This is confusing.
>
> Then there's the oxalic acid (C2H2O4 or (COOH)2 or HOOCCOOH).
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oxalic_acid
>
> Oxalic acid is apparently a weak acid that will only partially ionize.
> Oxalic acid has two acidic protons. The initial ionization yields HC2O4-, a
> weak acid that will ionize as well. https://byjus.com/oxalic-acid-formula/
>
> Apparently it's rather hydrophilic which may work in conjunction with the OH
> groups in the Ammonium Hydroxide (for all I know).
> https://collegedunia.com/exams/oxalic-acid-formula-properties-structure-and-uses-articleid-2581
>
> Most of the above was cut and pasted from the references for a starting
> point. But I can't make much sense of how it works yet, Frank.
>
> Can you?
>
Ammonia dissolves the copper oxide film.
Oxalic acid may solubilize some of the metal salts. It is the main
ingredient in Iron Out for cleaning toilet bowls and the like.
Material safety data sheets seldom disclose exact percent of an
ingredient unless required by law and as mentioned not all ingredients
need be disclosed.
hub...@ccanoemail.ca
Mar 28, 2022, 7:06:59 PM3/28/22
to
On Mon, 28 Mar 2022 13:04:29 +0100, Peter
<occassional...@nospam.co.uk> wrote:
>What's in it?
>Is it just sand?
>It's a pinkish watery fluid.
<occassional...@nospam.co.uk> wrote:
>What's in it?
>Is it just sand?
>It's a pinkish watery fluid.
>Doesn't seem to work on the brass I tested it on.
>Is there something better for brass?
>What's the chemical that cleans tarnished brass best?
>
Try some Autosol, Arlen.
>Is there something better for brass?
>What's the chemical that cleans tarnished brass best?
>
https://www.leevalley.com/en-ca/shop/tools/supplies/polishing/67014-autosol-metal-polish?item=54Z1510
John T.
Michael Moroney
Mar 28, 2022, 7:16:23 PM3/28/22
to
On 3/28/2022 2:23 PM, Peter wrote:
> I'm trying to figure out the chemistry of how they work.
>
> I saw a lot of vinegar and even nitric and hydrochloric acid solutions.
> But nobody says how it works (some said de-zincification).
>
> How does the acid or ammonia clean the brass (which is Copper & Zinc & maybe
> some Tin)?
>
> What's the chemical reaction going on?
> up what tarnish is.
>
> Tarnish is usually a metal oxide, the product of oxidation. Sometimes it is
> a metal sulfide. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tarnish
>
> But digging deeper into brass-specific oxidation, the tarnish seems to be
> perhaps de-zinc-ification. It's all so confusing when you try to find out
> what it is and what gets rid of it.
> <https://www.hunker.com/13411145/about-brass-oxidation>
> <https://rotaxmetals.net/dealing-with-brass-tarnish/>
>
> So I guess I have to figure out first what the tarnish is made up of because
> you can't understand how to remove it if you don't know what it's made out
> of.
As you mentioned, the oxalic acid is a reducing agent, it may be there
to try to convert corrosion back into the base metals.
The ammonia may be there to try to convert copper in corrosion into a
coordination compound which is easier to remove. (does it turn blue at
all? If so, the ammonia is working)
Maybe it needs to be exposed for a longer time? Maybe the dirt is the
nooks and crannies is too thick? Go after that with a toothpick maybe?
There is a product called "Iron Out" which contains different reducing
agents (sulfamic acid I think), intended to get iron stains out of
clothes. It *MAY* work on what you have. Experiment with scrap brass
first, then the bottom of your item, and don't blame me if it ruins it. :-)
> rbowman <bow...@montana.com> wrote:
>
>> Vinegar or ammonia. There is some discussion by handloaders whether
>> ammonia can cause stress cracking in cartridge cases.
>
> Thanks for the suggestions.
>
>> Vinegar or ammonia. There is some discussion by handloaders whether
>> ammonia can cause stress cracking in cartridge cases.
>
> I'm trying to figure out the chemistry of how they work.
>
> I saw a lot of vinegar and even nitric and hydrochloric acid solutions.
> But nobody says how it works (some said de-zincification).
>
> How does the acid or ammonia clean the brass (which is Copper & Zinc & maybe
> some Tin)?
>
> What's the chemical reaction going on?
>
>> If the brass is dirty along with surface corrosion a little dish washing
>> detergent will help.
>
> It has been cleaned many times and it's still "tarnished" so I had to look
>> If the brass is dirty along with surface corrosion a little dish washing
>> detergent will help.
>
> up what tarnish is.
>
> Tarnish is usually a metal oxide, the product of oxidation. Sometimes it is
> a metal sulfide. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tarnish
>
> But digging deeper into brass-specific oxidation, the tarnish seems to be
> perhaps de-zinc-ification. It's all so confusing when you try to find out
> what it is and what gets rid of it.
> <https://www.hunker.com/13411145/about-brass-oxidation>
> <https://rotaxmetals.net/dealing-with-brass-tarnish/>
>
> So I guess I have to figure out first what the tarnish is made up of because
> you can't understand how to remove it if you don't know what it's made out
> of.
As you mentioned, the oxalic acid is a reducing agent, it may be there
to try to convert corrosion back into the base metals.
The ammonia may be there to try to convert copper in corrosion into a
coordination compound which is easier to remove. (does it turn blue at
all? If so, the ammonia is working)
Maybe it needs to be exposed for a longer time? Maybe the dirt is the
nooks and crannies is too thick? Go after that with a toothpick maybe?
There is a product called "Iron Out" which contains different reducing
agents (sulfamic acid I think), intended to get iron stains out of
clothes. It *MAY* work on what you have. Experiment with scrap brass
first, then the bottom of your item, and don't blame me if it ruins it. :-)
Frank
Mar 28, 2022, 8:01:57 PM3/28/22
to
Iron Out powder and it has a sulfite like odor but also see that Iron
Out liquid for removing iron stains has oxalic acid. Liquid lacks the
sulfite smell. I have both liquid and power in our laundry room closet.
rbowman
Mar 28, 2022, 8:05:03 PM3/28/22
to
On 03/28/2022 12:23 PM, Peter wrote:
> But digging deeper into brass-specific oxidation, the tarnish seems to be
> perhaps de-zinc-ification. It's all so confusing when you try to find out
> what it is and what gets rid of it.
> <https://www.hunker.com/13411145/about-brass-oxidation>
> <https://rotaxmetals.net/dealing-with-brass-tarnish/>
https://www.tipsbulletin.com/how-to-tarnish-brass/
> But digging deeper into brass-specific oxidation, the tarnish seems to be
> perhaps de-zinc-ification. It's all so confusing when you try to find out
> what it is and what gets rid of it.
> <https://www.hunker.com/13411145/about-brass-oxidation>
> <https://rotaxmetals.net/dealing-with-brass-tarnish/>
For real confusion the substances used to age brass also are those used
to remove tarnish...
rbowman
Mar 28, 2022, 8:34:41 PM3/28/22
to
On 03/28/2022 01:40 PM, Cindy Hamilton wrote:
> Is Brasso available where you are?
Like a lot of things, Brasso ain't what it used to be. The original
> Is Brasso available where you are?
product had those nasty volatile organic compounds that were removed to
comply with US law. It used to do a good job of removing quartermaster
(lacquer overcoat. Presumably the quartermasters bought brass with a
protective coating). I doubt the child safe formulation will touch a
clear coat.
Personally I use Frankford Arsenal brass polish in a vibratory tumbler
with corn cob media but I doubt what the OP has in mind.
https://www.midwayusa.com/product/2124198878/
No ammonia and it smells good if you like citrus. Most of those citrus
based products suck but this one works.
rbowman
Mar 28, 2022, 8:36:20 PM3/28/22
to
Peeler
Mar 29, 2022, 4:08:45 AM3/29/22
to
On Mon, 28 Mar 2022 18:34:33 -0600, lowbrowwoman, the endlessly driveling,
LOL
troll-feeding, senile idiot, blabbered again:
> Like a lot of things, Brasso ain't what it used to be. The original
> product had those nasty volatile organic compounds that were removed to
Oh, fuck, the resident bigmouth starts "marshalling" its "thoughts" again!
> product had those nasty volatile organic compounds that were removed to
LOL
Peeler
Mar 29, 2022, 4:16:25 AM3/29/22
to
On Mon, 28 Mar 2022 18:36:14 -0600, lowbrowwoman, the endlessly driveling,
--
More typical idiotic senile gossip by lowbrowwoman:
"It's been years since I've been in a fast food burger joint but I used
to like Wendy's because they had a salad bar and baked potatoes."
MID: <ivdi4g...@mid.individual.net>
troll-feeding, senile idiot, blabbered again:
> I thought I smelled an Arlen...
You didn't, bigmouth!
--
More typical idiotic senile gossip by lowbrowwoman:
"It's been years since I've been in a fast food burger joint but I used
to like Wendy's because they had a salad bar and baked potatoes."
MID: <ivdi4g...@mid.individual.net>
croy
Mar 29, 2022, 11:17:40 AM3/29/22
to
On Mon, 28 Mar 2022 13:04:29 +0100, Peter <occassional...@nospam.co.uk> wrote:
>What's in it?
>
>Is it just sand?
>It's a pinkish watery fluid.
>
>Doesn't seem to work on the brass I tested it on.
>Is there something better for brass?
Could it be that your brass item is coated with something like clear laquer?
>What's in it?
>
>Is it just sand?
>It's a pinkish watery fluid.
>
>Doesn't seem to work on the brass I tested it on.
>Is there something better for brass?
--
croy
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