Wire nuts coming loose?
DaveC
stranded: hot, neutral, ground. Made pigtails (12 ga solid) for each terminal
of each outlet (3 each).
Used red wire nut on each splice to join all 4 hot, neutral, and ground
wires. *Really* cranked on the nuts until they stopped turning. Tugged on
each wire to be sure splice was solid.
Closed up the box.
My friend calls me back a few days later and says he removed one of the
outlets and spliced another ground wire (going to another box -- to make it a
grounded outlet) into the ground circuit. Puts the outlet back in the box,
plugs everything in, turns it on, and ... no power from one of the 3 outlets.
He opens up the box and finds that one hot and one neutral pigtail had pulled
out of their wire nut splices.
Is this a common thing? Are wire nut splices really that fragile that they
can't take a little moving around?
Have I done something wrong?
Thanks,
Dave
Harry
than the others. This can cause the behavior you describe.
An electrician friend showed me how he does it: he bares about 1 inch or so
of copper on each wire, twists them all together with a very wide-claw pair
of pliers, then cuts the whole thing to the right length, ensuring that they
are all the same length. He then screws on the red cap. I've done this
all over the house and haven't had a single mishap.
"DaveC" <an...@me.invalid> wrote in message
news:01HW.B88D5C810...@news.dnai.com...
Tom Biasi
Did you splice stranded to solid? If you did try inserting the stranded wire
completely in the wire nut and then put the solid in. The solid will sit
slightly on top of the stranded and when the twist is performed the stranded
will tightly wrap around the solid. A little vinyl tape on each nut wouldn't
hurt.
Good luck,
Tom
"Harry" <nos...@microsoft.com> wrote in message
news:07V98.9723$Vt3....@nwrddc01.gnilink.net...
Gil
length as the solid wire, will tend to wrap itself around the solid wire when the
wire nut is applied, effectively shortening itself, so that there is nothing to
grip in the end of the wire nut (where the compression is the greatest), except
the end of the solid strand. You can "crank" all day on that and it won't make a
good connection. You may need to strip the stranded a bit longer than the solid
before applying the wire nut to allow for this, and make sure the end of the
stranded wire extends beyond the end of the solid wire before inserting into the
wire nut, or as one poster said, insert the stranded wire first.
When I want to be extra careful in using wire nuts to connect stranded to solid,
I often take the time to lightly "tin" the stripped end of the stranded wire with
solder. This makes it act more like a solid wire, and if I ever have to take it
apart, it's durable enough to put back together again.
Jim Ghrist
not to overfill it. When your friend added the fifth wire, he may have
exceeded the capacity of the wire nut. A red Shark Fin Style Panduit wire
nut can take a maximum five #12 AWG wires, but a red Python Nut Style
Panduit wire nut can only take four. Check the package on the wire nuts
that you used.
Why didn't you wire from outlet to outlet instead of using wire nuts?
Jim Ghrist
"DaveC" <an...@me.invalid> wrote in message
news:01HW.B88D5C810...@news.dnai.com...
Michael Daly
> of copper on each wire, twists them all together with a very wide-claw pair
> of pliers
Sounds like that would scar the surfaces of the wires. Isn't that against
most electrical codes?
Mike
Harry
H
"Michael Daly" <micha...@rogers.com> wrote in message
news:cnX98.7481$LL....@news1.bloor.is...
Sylvan Butler
> Why didn't you wire from outlet to outlet instead of using wire nuts?
Perhaps because using a pigtail from the common point to each outlet
(perhaps using wire nuts) are approved and daisy-chaining outlets is
not. The little straps inside the outlet are not designed to pass
the full current to downstream outlets.
sdb
--
| Sylvan Butler | Not speaking for Hewlett-Packard | sbutler-boi.hp.com |
| Watch out for my e-mail address. Thank UCE. #### change ^ to @ #### |
They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary
safety deserve neither liberty nor safety. --Benjamin Franklin, 1759
Fight terrorism, arm the population!
Mark or Sue
"DaveC" <an...@me.invalid> wrote in message
news:01HW.B88D5C810...@news.dnai.com...
> He opens up the box and finds that one hot and one neutral pigtail had
pulled
> out of their wire nut splices.
>
> Is this a common thing? Are wire nut splices really that fragile that they
> can't take a little moving around?
>
> Have I done something wrong?
Working with a mix of stranded and solid can be a pain, especially is there
is a gross size mismatch. Try the following:
1. Tightly twist the stranded wire clockwise on itself to create a single
stiff wire.
2. Get the wires close together and twist the bare portions all together.
3. Now screw on the wire nut.
If that doesnt' work any better, then you may need to either tin the
stranded wire with solder (after step 1 above), or just solder the whole
mess together. I had to do this on some light fixtures where I was trying to
connect 18 AWG fixture wire to a 12GA solid circuit wire.
--
Mark
Renton, WA
Beavis
first some say twist them with the nuts. My experience is that a good pair
of lineman's pliers twists them, then the wire nut goes on.
"Mark or Sue" <suet...@attbi.com> wrote in message
news:9GZ98.37407$Pz4.224136@rwcrnsc53...
Mondaybill
length, ensuring that they are all the same length.". You grab em with your
linesman's add twist by the part you cut off later. By the way, wing type
wire nuts are the only way to go, and hold the insulated part of the bundle
with the pliers while you tighten the nut.
Monday Bill
Thomas D Horne
> (perhaps using wire nuts) are approved and daisy-chaining outlets is
> not. The little straps inside the outlet are not designed to pass the
> full current to downstream outlets.
>
On what do you base this assertion. Outlets that are listed with more
than one terminal per connection are indeed tested to pass there rated
current from terminal to terminal.
--
Tom
Dale or Kitty Eastman
> I often take the time to lightly "tin" the stripped end of the stranded wire with
> solder. This makes it act more like a solid wire, and if I ever have to take it
> apart, it's durable enough to put back together again.
You don't want to tin any stranded wire that goes into a compression
fitting. Be it a wirenut, or a breaker connector, a neutral, or a ground
bonding connection. If there is an overload, or even a normal heavy
load, a connection with a some ohms for what ever reason will get hot
enough to melt the solder. The connection then gets *Much* looser as the
solder runs out. <can you dial 911?>
Milspec soldering requires a "solid mechanical connection" before solder
is applied. Some materials have what is known as *cold flow*. The
material will squeeze out under pressure, over time.
--
Are we having fun yet?
Remove the spam.
From somewhere in Wisconsin.
Harry
H
"Mondaybill" <monda...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:u6guhe3...@corp.supernews.com...
Wand...@gulfcoast.com
wrote:
To me the give away was the stranded supply wire to the solid pig
tails. When you do this you have to really be careful because the
strands will actually wrap themselves around the solid wire. The wire
nut will hold a few strands and with the "tug test" you'll think they
are okay. The real grabbing though is provided by the solid wire.
Anytime I spice stranded to solid I strip a little extra long then use
my "Klines" to twist them together and make absolutely sure I have a
solid connection then i'll wire nut. I'll then tape the end of the
wire nut just as a precaution. Some scarring on a solid wire from a
wire nut is normal. It's caused by the wire nut "grabbing" the soft
copper.
Good luck ! Wanderer
>>
>>
>
>
Wand...@gulfcoast.com
Personally because for me it's faster and easier especially when I'm
doing them hot. Plus if one recept. gets hot at a termination it
doesn't effect the others if you pigtail them. I'd rather only replace
one short bad wire.
Wanderer
Oregon Manufacturing elect.
COA unrestricted master
SBCCI Master
(now isn't that just impressive as hell)
>
TinMan1332
>fitting. Be it a wirenut, or a breaker connector, a neutral, or a ground
>bonding connection. If there is an overload, or even a normal heavy
>load, a connection with a some ohms for what ever reason will get hot
>enough to melt the solder. The connection then gets *Much* looser as the
>solder runs out. <can you dial 911?>
>
>Milspec soldering requires a "solid mechanical connection" before solder
>is applied. Some materials have what is known as *cold flow*. The
>material will squeeze out under pressure, over time.
How about all those power tool switches with a stab connection (ya always have
to tin the stranded to get those to accept the wire)?
Gil
not would use it in every situation where stranded wire is connected, only for those
situations where a connection would be improved over that which would result without
it. Many devices using light gage stranded wire are furnished from the manufacturer
with tinned ends on the leads. If the strands are twisted tightly before tinning, and
the tinning is done properly, I don't believe the amount of solder involved is enough
to cause a problem. For some connections, I'd frankly be more concerned about high
resistance without the solder. But you're right, solder should not be used
indiscriminately.
Wand...@gulfcoast.com
wrote:
18 gauge stranded fixture wire should splice to 12 gauge solid with
either an orange or yellow wire nut just fine.
WARNING !!!! Do NOT solder wires together in your home. In your
electronic device it's fine. Not in your electrical system.
Tin/lead solder flows at a relatively low temperature. Solder flows
at a much lower temperature than your insulation will burn. When a
connection gets warm the solder will flow, this will loosen the
connection and send hot conducting solder into unknown areas within
the enclosure. Then the loosened connection will burn if the
conducting solder doesn't short something out first.
In your radio an overheated solder joint will cause the circuit board
to burn. In your home an overheated solder joint will cause your home
to burn.
This is in clear violation of the NEC and a just plane dangerous
practice. DON'T DO IT.
Wanderer
>
>--
>Mark
>Renton, WA
>
>
>
Dale or Kitty Eastman
The wire nut threads will squeeze the solder and get *to* the copper. If
tightend enough.
It's been my experience that the tinning just holds the ends of the
strands together and annoys because the rest of the stripped lead is
untinned. It just doesn't bend and wrap right. I end up clipping the
tin, to get the nut to grab. Were talking blues, oranges, and whites for
the nuts though. Not the big red ones.
Tom Biasi
fittings using copper to copper instead of copper to solder to copper.
Tom
"Dale or Kitty Eastman" <dalereas...@sprintmail.com> wrote in message
news:3C6884EB...@sprintmail.com...
Calvin Henry-Cotnam
>
>WARNING !!!! Do NOT solder wires together in your home. In your
>electronic device it's fine. Not in your electrical system.
> Tin/lead solder flows at a relatively low temperature. Solder flows
>at a much lower temperature than your insulation will burn. When a
>connection gets warm the solder will flow, this will loosen the
>connection and send hot conducting solder into unknown areas within
>the enclosure.
I don't buy this!
Let me first say that solder is NOT an acceptable means for connections
in an electrical wiring system.
However, to say that the solder may flow is rather dubious. Depending
on what alloy mix, you are looking at needing a temperature of around
400 degrees (F).
If you've got connections that are heating to this temperature, you have
some VERY serious problems even without the issue of solder!!!
--
Calvin Henry-Cotnam | "Nothing quite livens up a suburban
DAXaCK associates | neighbourhood like a driveway boasting
Richmond Hill, Ontario, Canada | plastic milk crates loaded with crap."
http://home.ica.net/~calvinhc | -- John Oakley, radio talk-show host
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
NOTE: if replying by email, remove the capital letters!
John Wilson
> Yeah, I've seen the lightly tinned leads on low power (light) fixtures.
> The wire nut threads will squeeze the solder and get *to* the copper. If
> tightend enough.
>
> It's been my experience that the tinning just holds the ends of the
> strands together and annoys because the rest of the stripped lead is
> untinned. It just doesn't bend and wrap right. I end up clipping the
> tin, to get the nut to grab. Were talking blues, oranges, and whites for
> the nuts though. Not the big red ones.
>
...
The other problem with tinning or with soldered connections is that the copper is seriously
weakened at the point where the solder ends. Whether this is metallurgical or just
mechanical I don't know, but I've had wires break at that point. This, as I understand it,
is the main reason for the requirement to make sure you have a good mechanical connection
and minimal stress on the wires with soldered connections.
73,
JohnW
John Wilson
Every time I've installed a receptacle, the directions (part of the UL
labeling, hence mandatory under NEC) required pigtailing the grounded
conductor (white wire, neutral) to keep from having a situation in which a
receptacle is removed, opening the neutral, and therefore causing strange
voltages on the downstream receptacles. IIRC, pigtailing the black wire was
also required, but I'm less positive about that. These receptacles did have
two screws per connection, with instructions to use only one.
I'd speculate that some time years ago UL listed the receptacles, then later
the open-neutral problem was brought to their attention. Manufacturers did
not want to go through the cost of redesigning and relisting their
receptacles, so they fixed it with a "labeling" change.
73,
JohnW
Gil
Calvin Henry-Cotnam wrote:
> Wand...@Gulfcoast.com (Wand...@Gulfcoast.com) said...
> >
> >WARNING !!!! Do NOT solder wires together in your home. In your
> >electronic device it's fine. Not in your electrical system.
> > Tin/lead solder flows at a relatively low temperature. Solder flows
> >at a much lower temperature than your insulation will burn. When a
> >connection gets warm the solder will flow, this will loosen the
> >connection and send hot conducting solder into unknown areas within
> >the enclosure.
>
> I don't buy this!
>
> Let me first say that solder is NOT an acceptable means for connections
> in an electrical wiring system.
>
> However, to say that the solder may flow is rather dubious. Depending
> on what alloy mix, you are looking at needing a temperature of around
> 400 degrees (F).
>
> If you've got connections that are heating to this temperature, you have
> some VERY serious problems even without the issue of solder!!!
That's a concept I'm having a problem with also, but I think the whole issue
has been blown out of proportion. In the first place, I'll stand corrected if
someone can show otherwise, but I don't believe the NEC prohibits the use of
solder for branch circuit connections; it's specifically prohibited for
connecting service entrance conductors to service equipment.
Having said that, I think most will agree that these days soldered
*connections* are not acceptable in an electrical system. However, tinning
the ends of the #18 leads on a light fixture to obtain sufficient mechanical
strength for a compression connection in a wire nut is a whole different
thing. To me this is a matter of preference, not safety. The stranded copper
can be weakened at the point where the tinning ends and the stiffer
insulation begins, but only after it's been fatigued at that stress
concentration point by excessive (possibly careless?) bending or flexing, or
by applying too much heat (and solder) during tinning. And the tinned wire
does not always bend and wrap right, but that's the idea, to prevent the very
flexible and weak strands from wrapping around the solid in a manner that
pulls it out of the compression connection during application of the wire
nut.
A compression connection with no solder is theoretically better, but in the
real world, based on many bare solid wire to light gage wire connections I've
taken apart, quite frequently only a few tiny strands of wire actually
complete the connection. I've replaced many of these connections that were
burned clear due to high resistance. I've made many good connections between
solid and stranded wire using wire nuts using no solder, but where the
situation demands, I think I'll take my chances with that few mg of solder
heating up and sending "hot conducting solder into unknown areas within the
enclosure".
TakeThisOut
2-wire circuits at the first device in the circuit. So any "loose neutrals"
that may occur downstream from the 1st device will not cause any "strange
voltages" on either of the 2 circuits.
Code states that the failure of a device on a circuit, or it's removal, shall
not affect the downstream devices fed from that circuit. So by default,
pigtailing is always required on both the grounded and ungrounded conductors.
However, in practice I've never seen this done in a residential situation, and
few commercial installations, unless specifically required by the customer.
(And by customer, I mean "The port Authority of NY & NJ" or "The schools
construction Authority, or "McGraw-Hill, Inc."... not So-and-so's expert
homebuilders.)
.
.
.
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.
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.
TAKETHISOUT budysbackagain(@)THAT TOO a-oh-ell dot com
No Spam
>Installed box w/ 3 duplex outlets for a friend. Supply wire is 12 ga
>stranded: hot, neutral, ground. Made pigtails (12 ga solid) for each terminal
>of each outlet (3 each).
>
>Used red wire nut on each splice to join all 4 hot, neutral, and ground
>wires. *Really* cranked on the nuts until they stopped turning. Tugged on
>each wire to be sure splice was solid.
Those of us overseas would be interested in these "wire nuts" I can
find this picture, is this *really* how wiring is done in homes in the
US?
http://www.insidespaces.com/dictionary/Tool_Pages/wirenuts.shtml
--
Harry
"No Spam" <nos...@dial.pipex.com> wrote in message
news:2dqi6ugnel2otl1h2...@4ax.com...
Yes, using wire nuts is the most common method of splicing two or more wires
together. They come in different sizes, however, with different capacities
(the number conductors of which gauge wire, etc.). What do they use in the
UK?
Alan Beagley
solid brass thingies with the screws that clamp down tight on the wires.
When I first encountered a wire nut, I thought it was some kind of
makeshift connection, ingenious but inherently unreliable and unsafe.
Most of the light fixtures I bought recently even had the wire nuts in
the package.
-=-
Alan
(Who grew up in the land of the 13A plugs with pins that look good for
100A and with the fuse appropriate to the appliance right in the plug)
Paul Hovnanian
>
> A good point.........I wouldn't use solder on a highly loaded connection..........and I
> not would use it in every situation where stranded wire is connected, only for those
> situations where a connection would be improved over that which would result without
> it. Many devices using light gage stranded wire are furnished from the manufacturer
> with tinned ends on the leads. If the strands are twisted tightly before tinning, and
> the tinning is done properly, I don't believe the amount of solder involved is enough
> to cause a problem. For some connections, I'd frankly be more concerned about high
> resistance without the solder. But you're right, solder should not be used
> indiscriminately.
Are you sure that what you are seeing is solder tinned? There are types
of wire (good
for high temp. or other environments) that are nickel plated. It looks
like solder
but doesn't melt like it. In fact, I'd expect that in fixture wiring.
--
Paul Hovnanian P.E. | (here) mailto:hovn...@bcstec.ca.boeing.com
Software Conflagration | (there) mailto:Pa...@Hovnanian.com
Control | (spam) mailto:postm...@mouse-potato.com
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Paul Erickson
together?
I'm not saying soldering is a great idea with modern wiring techniques, just
that millions of old homes are not exactly burning to the ground left and
right....
-- Paul
<Wand...@Gulfcoast.com> wrote in message
news:3c6fae3c...@news-server.austin.rr.com...
John Woodgate
<NcOaSlP...@ica.net> wrote (in <sg8a8.11831$X2.1...@nnrp1.uunet.ca
>) about 'Wire nuts coming loose?', on Tue, 12 Feb 2002:
>However, to say that the solder may flow is rather dubious. Depending
>on what alloy mix, you are looking at needing a temperature of around
>400 degrees (F).
It will indeed 'cold flow' at room temperature under the pressures
inside a terminal, including a wire nut. Experiment with a bit of solder
and a vice.
Better still, leave out the solder. (;-)
--
Regards, John Woodgate, OOO - Own Opinions Only. http://www.jmwa.demon.co.uk
After swimming across the Hellespont, I felt like a Hero.
PLEASE do NOT copy news posts to me by E-MAIL!
No Spam
Proper terminals that clamp down on the wire tightened with a
screwdriver, sort of proper engineering ;-)
Thinking about it now the only place i've ever seen these wire nuts in
the UK was inside a central heating controller, and I think, no i'm
sure they were on the 24v circuitry......and there was me thinking the
only difference was voltage, frequency, and the dodgy mains plugs you
use <vbg>
--
DaveC
> not to overfill it. When your friend added the fifth wire, he may have
> exceeded the capacity of the wire nut. A red Shark Fin Style Panduit wire
> nut can take a maximum five #12 AWG wires, but a red Python Nut Style
> Panduit wire nut can only take four. Check the package on the wire nuts
> that you used.
IIRC, the box is 2-1/2 to 3 inches deep, plenty for 3 outlets and 3-4 nuts.
I had aligned all 4 wires (1 stranded, 3 solid) and held them together while
turning on the red wire-nut. I cranked the nut by hand until it stopped
turning, and didn't go any further (ie, twisting the wires if you go any
further). Tugged on each *pretty* hard to see if it was solid.
Each red wire-nut connection has 1 stranded 12 ga wire and 3 solid 12 ga
"pigtail" wires. My friend disconnected one pigtail from *the ground screw*
at one outlet (not from one of the wire nut connections). He then wire-nutted
onto that pigtail another pigtail (to go back on the ground screw) and a 6
ft. solid 12 ga ground wire to go to the distant outlet. He never tampered
with the original 3 wire nut connections.
> Why didn't you wire from outlet to outlet instead of using wire nuts?
"Wire from the source" was my thinking. I just thought that as long as I
didn't exceed the capacity of the wire nut, there was no advantage to using
"outlet-to-outlet" connections. Also, the comments about loose neutrals and
grounds, as well as the "jumper straps" possibly not being safe to pass full
circuit current seem valid, from a safety perspective.
I will not use solder. Having used it for decades in my electronics work, I
know it is not appropriate for power wiring.
My next attempt will be to twist the stranded wire alone, then add the solid
wires -- stranded wire extended a bit further out than the others -- and
twist on a nut.
Wish me luck...
Dave
Harry
couple of spare plugs left over. 8-)
Rich Grise
Yes, they're routinely used, but I wouldn't rely on one to
connect a stranded wire to a solid one. They sort of have
different twisting characteristics. You'd have to twist the
stranded wire really tightly, then twist it and the solid
wire together, quite securely, then apply the wire nut,
whose job is actually just to hold the wires together.
And I agree with whoever it was who said, don't use solder.
It "cold flows" and so the connection loosens over time.
There was a place where I worked not too long ago, where
we'd use crimp-on terminals, and dip them in a solder
pot _after_ crimping them properly, but if you crimp on
a terminal _after_ tinning the wire, it's unreliable.
And that "secure mechanical connection" stuff is a load
of hogwash. Solder is, after all, metal. You just don't
want to rely on it to maintain a connection that relies
on being squeezed. (or is subject to being pulled on by
some idiot.)
--
Cheers!
Rich
"We have met the enemy, and he is us!"
- Pogo Possum, ca. 1950's
Dale or Kitty Eastman
>
> And that "secure mechanical connection" stuff is a load
> of hogwash. Solder is, after all, metal. You just don't
> want to rely on it to maintain a connection that relies
> on being squeezed. (or is subject to being pulled on by
> some idiot.)
Hiya Rich, Methinks Ya' missread me.
What I said,
> Milspec soldering requires a "solid mechanical connection" before solder
> is applied. Some materials have what is known as *cold flow*. The
> material will squeeze out under pressure, over time.
Try this experiment: Strip an inch of insulation from 2 ea. 12 ga.
wires. Lay the wires side by side overlapping by only the one inch of
bare copper. Solder the two wires together. Tie one end to a bench and
hang a weight of some significance to the other end.
Do the same thing again but this time twist the wires prior to
soldering.
Report back in a couple of weeks when the not-"solid mechanical
connection" lets go and scares yesterday's meal out of you.
8?)
The cold flow will allow the non twisted wires to eventually part ways.
Dale or Kitty Eastman
<snip>
> I don't buy this!
<nother snip>
> However, to say that the solder may flow is rather dubious. Depending
> on what alloy mix, you are looking at needing a temperature of around
> 400 degrees (F).
>
> If you've got connections that are heating to this temperature, you have
> some VERY serious problems even without the issue of solder!!!
I 'spose you're right. Maybe one of the other brains can calculate the
temp rise of a resistive connection on a electric cooking range. So the
solder didn't flow, it just got hot enough to change shape making the
connection on Dad's range even more resistive. What I really liked was
the arc when the power cord was bumped because it had gotten that loose.
Some dummy had tinned the leads on the power cord on a 220 range. I got
to fix it.
>
> --
> Calvin Henry-Cotnam | "Nothing quite livens up a suburban
> DAXaCK associates | neighbourhood like a driveway boasting
> Richmond Hill, Ontario, Canada | plastic milk crates loaded with crap."
> http://home.ica.net/~calvinhc | -- John Oakley, radio talk-show host
> -------------------------------------------------------------------------
> NOTE: if replying by email, remove the capital letters!
--
Dale or Kitty Eastman
>
> Are you sure that what you are seeing is solder tinned? There are types
> of wire (good
> for high temp. or other environments) that are nickel plated. It looks
> like solder
> but doesn't melt like it. In fact, I'd expect that in fixture wiring.
Do they nickle plate them only on the end? Tinning ends at the
insulation or even before. Diameter of the conductor changes also.
Dale or Kitty Eastman
>
> IIRC, the box is 2-1/2 to 3 inches deep, plenty for 3 outlets and 3-4 nuts.
IIRC NEC even covers how many wires in a box of X cubic inches.
Bob Berryman
>From: "Paul Erickson" pa...@mindspring.com
>Date: 2/12/2002 2:57 PM Eastern Standard Time
>Message-id: <u6isv3a...@news.supernews.com>
>
>But aren't old houses with K&T filled with Western Union splices soldered
>together?
>I'm not saying soldering is a great idea with modern wiring techniques, just
>that millions of old homes are not exactly burning to the ground left and
>right....
>
>-- Paul
Yes, Paul, you are absolutely correct about the K&T being soldered. NEC still
requires that K&T be soldered if the circuits are extended ( using K&T
methods.) Much of it is still in good shape after 75 years (as long as the
wiring wasn't abused by oversized fuses, etc.)
Bob Berryman
>IIRC, the box is 2-1/2 to 3 inches deep, plenty for 3 outlets and 3-4 nuts.
>
>I had aligned all 4 wires (1 stranded, 3 solid) and held them together while
>turning on the red wire-nut. I cranked the nut by hand until it stopped
>turning, and didn't go any further (ie, twisting the wires if you go any
>further). Tugged on each *pretty* hard to see if it was solid.
>
>Each red wire-nut connection has 1 stranded 12 ga wire and 3 solid 12 ga
>"pigtail" wires. My friend disconnected one pigtail from *the ground screw*
>at one outlet (not from one of the wire nut connections). He then wire-nutted
>
>onto that pigtail another pigtail (to go back on the ground screw) and a 6
>ft. solid 12 ga ground wire to go to the distant outlet. He never tampered
>with the original 3 wire nut connections.
>
>> Why didn't you wire from outlet to outlet instead of using wire nuts?
>
>"Wire from the source" was my thinking. I just thought that as long as I
>didn't exceed the capacity of the wire nut, there was no advantage to using
>"outlet-to-outlet" connections. Also, the comments about loose neutrals and
>grounds, as well as the "jumper straps" possibly not being safe to pass full
>circuit current seem valid, from a safety perspective.
>
>I will not use solder. Having used it for decades in my electronics work, I
>know it is not appropriate for power wiring.
>
>My next attempt will be to twist the stranded wire alone, then add the solid
>wires -- stranded wire extended a bit further out than the others -- and
>twist on a nut.
>
>Wish me luck...
>
>Dave
If you want a decent connection do this: Strip the solid wires about 1 inch or
longer. Use a pair of pliers to twist the solid wires together and cut off the
excess to about 3/4 inch. Strip the stranded wire slightly longer than the
resulting pre-twisted solid wires and twist the strands together. Lay the
stranded wire next to the pre-twisted solid wires so that the stranded wire is
protruding slightly past the pre-twisted solid wires. Install the wire nut.
Give the stranded wire a tug to see that it is well connected.
Just because the instructions for the wire nuts say "no need to pre-twist"
doesn't mean that you _can't_.
Due to the nature of electric connections, it's the responsibility of whoever
opens an electrical box, cabinet, equipment, or whatever, to ensure that they
have not disturbed any other existing wiring after they have done what they
needed to do.
After doing all that, check your screw connections, you'll probably find that
they are loose. Once an electrical connection has been torqued, the wires must
not be moved. If the wires are moved, re-check them.
Thomas D Horne
John
The directions are not part of the listing or labeling unless the
directions bare the laboratory listing mark. Most manufacturers
directions are not included in the listing or labeling. The
manufacturers would like you to believe that you have to follow all of
their directions, such as the ones that say use only our breakers in
this panel, but that is not in fact the case. Thomas & Bettes fought
Square D and others to a standstill on this issue years ago. They make
Underwriters Laboratory Recognized breakers for many brands of panel.
This is why T&B breakers are a stock item on many service trucks because
they come packed with a list of all the panels that they are recognized
for use in. When Square D started to claim that using the T&B breakers
in their panels violated the panels listing T&B sued successfully to
force them to stop slandering them by claiming that they were offering
products that violated the listings. Look up the receptacle in question
in the UL building materials directory. If the instructions are not on
the listing sheet they are not part of the listing or labeling. Many
receptacles come with directions that specifically illustrate feed
through connections. The only place that the practice is in fact
forbidden by the NEC © is in the neutral of multiwire branch circuits.
Viz.
300.13 Mechanical and Electrical Continuity -- Conductors.
(B) Device Removal. In multiwire branch circuits, the continuity of a
grounded conductor shall not depend on device connections such as
lampholders, receptacles, and so forth, where the removal of such
devices would interrupt the continuity.
--
Tom
Jim Ghrist
nut relies on compressing the wire.
Jim Ghrist
"Dale or Kitty Eastman" <dalereas...@sprintmail.com> wrote in message
news:3C69A7B5...@sprintmail.com...
Alan Beagley
panel -- but does this section of the NEC apply to the neutral or only
to the ground conductor itself.
-=-
Alan
Thomas D Horne wrote:
> . . . Many
Thomas D Horne
> Code states that the failure of a device on a circuit, or it's
> removal, shall not affect the downstream devices fed from that
> circuit. So by default, pigtailing is always required on both the
> grounded and ungrounded conductors. However, in practice I've never
> seen this done in a residential situation, and few commercial
> installations, unless specifically required by the customer. (And
> by customer, I mean "The port Authority of NY & NJ" or "The schools
> construction Authority, or "McGraw-Hill, Inc."... not So-and-so's
> expert homebuilders.)
>
Buddy
What NEC © section are you referring to?
"300.13 Mechanical and Electrical Continuity -- Conductors.
(B) Device Removal. In multiwire branch circuits, the continuity of a
grounded conductor shall not depend on device connections such as
lampholders, receptacles, and so forth, where the removal of such
devices would interrupt the continuity." only applies to multiwire
branch circuits.
--
Tom
Jim Ghrist
device box as 14.0 cu. in. A three receptacle box would be 3 x 14 = 42 cu.
in. Assuming no clamps, you started out with 12 conductors plus 3 devices
(count as 2 conductors for volume calculations). A total of 18 volume units
at 2.25 cu. in. each. This is 40.5 cu. in., OK for a 2-3/4 inch deep
boxes, but your friend added 2 conductors (4.5 cu. in.) making it overfilled
per NEC.
Jim Ghrist
"DaveC" <an...@me.invalid> wrote in message
news:01HW.B88EC8CC0...@news.dnai.com...
TakeThisOut
>device box as 14.0 cu. in. A three receptacle box would be 3 x 14 = 42 cu.
>in. Assuming no clamps, you started out with 12 conductors plus 3 devices
What 12 conductors? Pigtails, or wires which begin and terminate within the
same box, are not counted towards box fill.
Or has the code changed?
>Subject: Re: Wire nuts coming loose?
>Path:
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com.com!news.atl.earthlink.net!news.mindspring.net!not-for-mail
>From: "Jim Ghrist" maxim...@pipeline.com
>Newsgroups: sci.engr.electrical.compliance,
>sci.engr.electrical.sys-protection, alt.energy.homepower, alt.home.repair,
>sci.electronics.basics
>Date: Tue, 12 Feb 2002 21:00:23 -0500
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TakeThisOut
.
Ralph & Diane Barone
Thomas D Horne <hor...@mindspring.com> wrote:
> > Perhaps because using a pigtail from the common point to each outlet
> > (perhaps using wire nuts) are approved and daisy-chaining outlets is
> > not. The little straps inside the outlet are not designed to pass the
> > full current to downstream outlets.
> >
>
>On what do you base this assertion. Outlets that are listed with more
>than one terminal per connection are indeed tested to pass there rated
>current from terminal to terminal.
>--
>Tom
>
The electrical code where I live (BC, Canada) had that clause in it the
last time I looked. They may have revised it in the latest version.
Bob Berryman
>Date: 2/12/2002 9:00 PM Eastern Standard Time
>Message-id: <a4chlp$qbt$1...@slb3.atl.mindspring.net>
>
>Let's see. NEC Table 370-16(a) shows a capacity for a single 3 x 2 x 2-3/4
>device box as 14.0 cu. in. A three receptacle box would be 3 x 14 = 42 cu.
>in. Assuming no clamps, you started out with 12 conductors plus 3 devices
>(count as 2 conductors for volume calculations). A total of 18 volume units
>at 2.25 cu. in. each. This is 40.5 cu. in., OK for a 2-3/4 inch deep
>boxes, but your friend added 2 conductors (4.5 cu. in.) making it overfilled
>per NEC.
>
>Jim Ghrist
>
"Each conductor that originates outside the box and terminates or is spliced
within the box shall be counted once, and each conductor that passes through
the box without splice or termination shall be counted once. The conductor
fill, in cubic inches, shall be computed using Table 370-16(b). A conductor,
_no_ part of which _leaves_ the box, shall _not_ be counted."
Also, 370-16(b)(5) states that "one or _more_ equipment grounding conductors"
only require a _single_ volume count.
So the count is: 3 for the supply wires (hot, neutral, and equipment ground).
2(count) x 3 (receptacles) = 6 For a total count of 9. The wire added was an
equipment grounding conductor (which was already counted in the supply wires).
2.25 x 9 = 20.25 cubic inches.
Tracy
Michael Daly wrote:
"Harry" <nos...@microsoft.com> wrote in message news:07V98.9723$Vt3....@nwrddc01.gnilink.net...An electrician friend showed me how he does it: he bares about 1 inch or so
of copper on each wire, twists them all together with a very wide-claw pair
of pliers
Sounds like that would scar the surfaces of the wires. Isn't that against
most electrical codes?
Mike
Tracy
Different manufacturers use different colors for a given size wire nut.
When you buy a box of wire nuts, the manufacturer usually labels all
the different combinations of wire that the wire nut is good for. You
need to make sure that you are using a large enough wire nut. Four
number 12 wires require a good size wire nut. Others have posted good
tips on wire twisting. Mixing stranded wire with solid may make joining
a little more difficult than all solid joints. The wiring in my house
is 35 years old and I have never found a loose wire nut. Wire nuts are
used precisely because they are effective and simple to use. If your
wire nut came loose, you are probably doing something wrong. I prefer
3M Scotchlok wire nuts since they are easier to use due to less bulk on
the O.D..
Dealing with electricity is not a hobby. If you don't do the job
properly, your house may burn down.
DaveC wrote:
>Installed box w/ 3 duplex outlets for a friend. Supply wire is 12 ga
>stranded: hot, neutral, ground. Made pigtails (12 ga solid) for each terminal
>of each outlet (3 each).
>
>Used red wire nut on each splice to join all 4 hot, neutral, and ground
>wires. *Really* cranked on the nuts until they stopped turning. Tugged on
>each wire to be sure splice was solid.
>
>Closed up the box.
>
>My friend calls me back a few days later and says he removed one of the
>outlets and spliced another ground wire (going to another box -- to make it a
>grounded outlet) into the ground circuit. Puts the outlet back in the box,
>plugs everything in, turns it on, and ... no power from one of the 3 outlets.
>He opens up the box and finds that one hot and one neutral pigtail had pulled
>out of their wire nut splices.
>
>Is this a common thing? Are wire nut splices really that fragile that they
>can't take a little moving around?
>
>Have I done something wrong?
>
>Thanks,
>Dave
>
Thomas D Horne
Alan
The US NEC uses the term "Grounded conductor" for what many of us call
the neutral. All neutrals are grounded conductors but not all grounded
conductors are neutrals. In engineering parlance a neutral conductor
carries only the imbalance current of a circuit of which it is a part.
The voltage between a neutral and all ungrounded conductors of a circuit
is the same. Neutrals can only originate in a wye or star connected
transformer or a center tapped single phase transformer. A corner
grounded delta transformer supplies a grounded conductor but that
conductor is not a neutral. A three transformer delta bank with a phase
to phase voltage of 240 volts can have one phase center tapped to supply
120 volt loads. The conductor that originates at the center tap is a
grounded conductor but it is not a neutral.
--
Tom
Thomas D Horne
The canadian code and others may forbid using them as feed through but
most duplex NEMA 5-15R and 5-20R receptacles are listed to carry twenty
amperes between terminals.
--
Tom
Mark or Sue
depend on the voltage being used, or the votlage the wire is rated for?
The 300V wire counts are much higher than the 600V numbers, but I could see
that 600V insulation may be thicker than 300V insulation which would affect
the size of the wire bundle under the nut. My romex is rated at 600V, but
I'm using it in a house (e.g. 250V or less). Can I use the 300V numbers?
Thanks.
--
Mark
Renton, WA
L.Angel
>> http://www.insidespaces.com/dictionary/Tool_Pages/wirenuts.shtml
>
>Yes, they're routinely used, but I wouldn't rely on one to
>connect a stranded wire to a solid one. They sort of have
>different twisting characteristics. You'd have to twist the
>stranded wire really tightly, then twist it and the solid
>wire together, quite securely, then apply the wire nut,
>whose job is actually just to hold the wires together.
Is there a picture of how the whole thing actually works? I look at it
and have absolutely no idea how it could hold two pieces of wire
together.
From your description, it seems like you stuff the twisted end into
the wire nut, then stuff the other one into the first one, squashing
the wire inside and hopefully the whole thing holds up. :P
The little lost angel & her featherhead's 2 cents worth of dreaminess.
Terry
No Spam wrote:
> Those of us overseas would be interested in these "wire nuts" I can
> find this picture, is this *really* how wiring is done in homes in the
> US?
Yes and Canada too. Never had any particular problems with them. This 31
year old house is full of them!
A question for the UK if I may? Those 'Chocolate blocks' (or the nylon
equivalent of same) I have seen UK references to; how well do they work?
A UK relative gave me some. They have small 'straight slot' screws to
contain the wires; the tops of the screws are recessed into the
insulating block. I can see problems if I try to put more than one or
two wires into each 'slot'?
Even taking into consideration that the amount of current at the
European 230 volts may be half that of the North American 115/230 volt
systems there doesn't seem to be much 'meat' or substance, as it were
using those little screws to attach the wires. Or if you overtighten can
the tip of the screw cut off the wire?
If you strip out a screw or damage it's head what do you do? Scrap the
block or change out the screw?
Agree those big UK 13 amp brass plugs, fused at anywhere from 3 to 13
amps I gather, are good quality, but seem like overkill, must be
expensive too? The sockets look very safe too. Perhaps their size makes
sense on 'ring mains' circuits? Other European 230 volt countries use
different style plugs AFIK and 230 volt Australia uses?
AFIK North American domestic and commercial wiring is entirely what UK
would call 'radial'. Domestically this means more individual circuits
for lights and outlets rated at 15 or 20 amps depending on the AWG wire
used.
Having said all that anything electrical should be maintained. If
something gets loose or chafed etc. it behoves to fix it asap whatever
the voltage or current! I once encountered a friend of my 80+ year old
aunt, in Brighton, 'fixing' the lead for an electric heater plug, with a
pair of scissors and a nail file! Not that it can't be done but 'the
friend' had whiskers of stranded wire all over the place; those little
screws!
Be interested in a comment. Terry. (Ex Scouser btw)
Tony Miklos
Michael Daly wrote:
>
> "Harry" <nos...@microsoft.com> wrote in message news:07V98.9723$Vt3....@nwrddc01.gnilink.net...
> >
> > An electrician friend showed me how he does it: he bares about 1 inch or so
> > of copper on each wire, twists them all together with a very wide-claw pair
> > of pliers
>
> Sounds like that would scar the surfaces of the wires. Isn't that against
> most electrical codes?
I'm not an electrician, but have worked in electronics since the 70's.
I have dealt with many poorly designed circuits that run hot, and know
all about bad connections causing heat. What I would love to know is
why would scarring the wire be against code? Any wire nut with a metal
inside will scar the wires, correct? The backstab outlets and switches
all scar the wire. What am I missing here?
--
Tony
Tony Miklos
Mondaybill wrote:
By the way, wing type
> wire nuts are the only way to go, and hold the insulated part of the bundle
> with the pliers while you tighten the nut.
Do you hold the wires back a bit so that even part of the insulated
length twists around themselves? That's how I like to do it but not
sure if it's the greatest method.
--
Tony
John Woodgate
<tsan...@nf.sympatico.ca> wrote (in <3C69F705...@nf.sympatico.ca>
) about 'Wire nuts coming loose?', on Wed, 13 Feb 2002:
>A question for the UK if I may? Those 'Chocolate blocks' (or the nylon
>equivalent of same) I have seen UK references to; how well do they work?
High-quality ones work very well. Cheap ones can be troublesome, but not
so as to cause fires.
>
>A UK relative gave me some. They have small 'straight slot' screws to
>contain the wires; the tops of the screws are recessed into the
>insulating block. I can see problems if I try to put more than one or
>two wires into each 'slot'?
Not if you hold the wires while tightening the screw.
>
>Even taking into consideration that the amount of current at the
>European 230 volts may be half that of the North American 115/230 volt
>systems there doesn't seem to be much 'meat' or substance, as it were
>using those little screws to attach the wires.
They come in different sizes, rated from 3A to 30 A. The 30 A ones are
quite chunky. (Actually, there are 1 A ones, but they are used in
equipment, not in wiring.)
> Or if you overtighten can
>the tip of the screw cut off the wire?
That can be a problem with cheap ones. Better ones have screws with
carefully-rounded tips. Even better ones have a captive strip of metal
under the screws so that the strip clamps the wire, not the screw.
>
>If you strip out a screw or damage it's head what do you do? Scrap the
>block or change out the screw?
It's fiddly to get the screw out, so you usually scrap the block. But
they can be re-claimed, even to replacing a damaged sleeve.
--
Regards, John Woodgate, OOO - Own Opinions Only. http://www.jmwa.demon.co.uk
After swimming across the Hellespont, I felt like a Hero.
PLEASE do NOT copy news posts to me by E-MAIL!
Bob Berryman
>Date: 2/13/2002 12:50 AM Eastern Standard Time
>Message-id: <3C69FE99...@netcarrier.com>
Yes, 2 or 3 twists of the insulated part around themselves is about what you
want.
Thomas D Horne
The figure you pay attention to is the applied voltage. In other words
all that matters is the voltage that is actually applied to the circuit.
--
Tom
Dale or Kitty Eastman
you test same. 8?)
Mondaybill
> length twists around themselves? That's how I like to do it but not
> sure if it's the greatest method.
>
> --
> Tony
Yes....... You have to so the insulation ends up inside the skirt.
Monday Bill
..mike..
tap on the bottom of the wire nut and continue on to the wire.....Then
the connection should be permanent..
Ralph & Diane Barone
Ah, I see your point Tom. Perhaps I should rephrase my reply as "That may
be true, but if it violates code where you live, it doesn't really matter".
Carl Porter
> weakened at the point where the solder ends. Whether this is metallurgical or just
> mechanical I don't know, but I've had wires break at that point
This is mechanical, it's like grabing a coat hanger with a pair of pliers and bending it at
the point where it meets the jaws. If your wires are flexing this much you need something
different in its design, wire type, or connection.
Tony Miklos
would be a no no in a code book. Could someone explain please?
Rich Grise
And my soldering experience has been electronic, not electrical.
I have no doubt that your experiment would have the result that
you say. The solder pulls apart. But when building a radio, the
"secure mechanical connection" isn't necessary, in my not so
humble opinion, because the wires aren't typically subjected
to those kinds of mechanical stresses. And bending over the
pins on an IC makes it a real PITA to replace them when they
go south.
And don't forget that other attribute of milspec - that
results in 10,000 dollar hammers and toilet seats. Every
year, at budget time, we had to throw away thousands of
dollars worth of parts, because if we didn't order all
new, we'd lose our budget allocation. (kinda handy for
the hobbyist standing next to the dumpster, however.)
:-)
--
Cheers!
Rich
"We have met the enemy, and he is us!"
- Pogo Possum, ca. 1950's
Rich Grise
of insulation off the ends of the wires to be joined. Hold them
parallel, so their ends and the ends of the insulation are all
lined up with each other. (the ends of the copper line up, and
the ends of the insulation line up.) While holding the wires by
their insulated part, but as close to the stripped part as possible,
in your left hand (if you're left-handed, you'll have to reverse
everything, of course); then twist the wires together like the
way you'd twist the twist-tie on a bread bag or trash bag.
Then take the wire nut, which has a hole in only one end, and
thread it onto the ends of the twisted-together set of wires,
as if you were threading a nut onto a bolt. It will let you
know by feel when you've turned it far enough. You have to
twist the wires clockwise, as viewed from the cut ends,
since the wire-nuts have a right-hand thread, at least in
the US.
--
HTH!
Rich Grise
220/230/240 (whatever) supply, and made some error, and welded the
Greenfield (spiral-wound flexible conduit) to the back of the dryer.
He used to tell the story at cocktail parties and such. :-)
Dale or Kitty Eastman wrote:
>
> I 'spose you're right. Maybe one of the other brains can calculate the
> temp rise of a resistive connection on a electric cooking range. So the
> solder didn't flow, it just got hot enough to change shape making the
> connection on Dad's range even more resistive. What I really liked was
> the arc when the power cord was bumped because it had gotten that loose.
>
> Some dummy had tinned the leads on the power cord on a 220 range. I got
> to fix it.
--
Cheers!
Alan Beagley
ago. Spend (or use, or waste, or trash) it or lose it.
-=-
Alan
Gil
I'm not sure that "scarring" wires is a "no no" in any code book, but it's certainly not good practice.
For instance, careless stripping of insulation, or use of the improper tool can produce cuts or and
nicks in the conductor, typically at the end of the insulation, and depending on the size of the
conductor, this type of damage result in a future break in the conductor at that point due to increased
stress. Sometimes a nick in the conductor will cause a hidden break within a connection when the force
of twisting the wires together is applied. At the very extreme a nicked wire could be reduced in
cross-sectional area sufficiently to cause overheating at rated ampacity.
(As far as I'm concerned, with all due respect to the *innocent*, some electricians are the most guilty
of causing this kind of damage, I guess because "time is money". When I had my house wired for instance,
they used a bare copper crimp connector to bond the grounding conductors together in each outlet box,
letting one of the grounding conductors run long through the crimp comnnector for connection to the
duplex outlet ground terminal. The problem is that crimping a wire that's supposed to be continous past
the crimp is like sawing halfway through a link in the middle of a length of chain. The force of the
crimping tool deformed the #12 bare copper so that the slighest movement causes it to break off at the
deformity, and then I have no ground at that outlet. There is a wire nut connector made specifically for
this application, green with a hole in the end, but the crimps must be $.02 cheaper, or maybe they
didn't have any on the truck that day. I spent the better part of a month going through all my wiring
repairing defects the electrician left behind, including hot wires with damaged insulation and exposed
conductors, not to mention the damage caused by the sheetrock guys using their new *toy*, the rotozip,
to cut out for outlets and fixtures, but that's another story.)
Sorry about the rant. The question raised here was concerning the scarring that might occur twisting
together of the conductors prior to installation of the wire nut, and this is in a different context
than what I've described above. If one uses the proper tool, i.e., a decent pair of linesman's pliers,
and grips the ends of the conductors while twisting, very little scarring will result, because the
pliers are not *supposed* to be slipping on the conductors while this operation takes place, and if some
scarring does take place, it's probably not going to affect the connection adversly, but this is a
judgement call. Moreover, if the conductors are stripped a little long before twisting, any scarring is
confined to the ends of the connection, which can (should) be cut off anyway.
DaveC
(in message <3C6BEAA1...@netcarrier.com>):
> I am reposting this because I am so darn curious why "scarring" wires
> would be a no no in a code book. Could someone explain please?
Scarring creates a weak spot in the copper wire. Much more likely to snap off
when you cram all those wires and wire nuts and stuff back into the box (lots
of bending, y'know...)
Dave
Trevor Barton
> "Harry" <nos...@microsoft.com> wrote:
>
>>
>>"No Spam" <nos...@dial.pipex.com> wrote in message
>>news:2dqi6ugnel2otl1h2...@4ax.com...
>>> DaveC <an...@me.invalid> wrote:
>>>
>>> >Installed box w/ 3 duplex outlets for a friend. Supply wire is 12 ga
>>> >stranded: hot, neutral, ground. Made pigtails (12 ga solid) for each
>>terminal
>>> >of each outlet (3 each).
>>> >
>>> >Used red wire nut on each splice to join all 4 hot, neutral, and ground
>>> >wires. *Really* cranked on the nuts until they stopped turning. Tugged on
>>> >each wire to be sure splice was solid.
>>>
>>> find this picture, is this *really* how wiring is done in homes in the
>>> US?
>>>
>>>
>>
>>Yes, using wire nuts is the most common method of splicing two or more wires
>>together. They come in different sizes, however, with different capacities
>>(the number conductors of which gauge wire, etc.). What do they use in the
>>UK?
>
> Proper terminals that clamp down on the wire tightened with a
> screwdriver, sort of proper engineering ;-)
Flipping heck I have to agree here, they look like a nightmare! I'd
have to presume they're generally hidden behind walls or sockets or
something so that some idiot couldn't tug the wires out of them?
Give me a real screw terminal any day! Squeese them wires real hard!
Trev
--
Trevor Barton
Isotek Electronics Ltd, 9 Clayton Wood Bank, Leeds, LS16 6QZ, UK.
Tel: +44 (113) 275 1339, Fax +44 (113) 224 9827
Remove X from t...@Xisotek.co.uk before replying.
Views expressed are my own and not necessarily those of Isotek Electronics Ltd.
Carl Porter
nuts will scar the surface of the conductors with the spring inside and deeper than the serrations on
electrician pliers will make. Just make sure to twist the wires together first in the direction that
putting the wire nut on will tighten, trim if necessary, and then install the wire nut. In places where
the wires are moved on ocassion it is advisable to wrap electrician tape around the assembly.
Chris Lewis
> Every time I've installed a receptacle, the directions (part of the UL
> labeling, hence mandatory under NEC) required pigtailing the grounded
> conductor (white wire, neutral) to keep from having a situation in which a
> receptacle is removed, opening the neutral, and therefore causing strange
> voltages on the downstream receptacles. IIRC, pigtailing the black wire was
> also required, but I'm less positive about that. These receptacles did have
> two screws per connection, with instructions to use only one.
As far as I am aware, pigtailing neutral is only required in multi-wire
branch circuits (eg: 4 wire 240/120V). Tho, Knight (against Canadian
code) and I always pigtail, just "because".
--
Chris Lewis,
For more information on spam, see http://spam.abuse.net/spam
It's not just anyone who gets a Starship Cruiser class named after them.
Chris Lewis
> WARNING !!!! Do NOT solder wires together in your home. In your
> electronic device it's fine. Not in your electrical system.
Soldering is a perfectly acceptable practise in the CEC (and I believe
the NEC as well). The trick is that it requires considerably more skill
and time to do it right than wirenuts do, so you very seldom see it
done. Especially by professional electricians, where time is money.
If an inspector caught a DIYer soldering, they'd probably insist
on dismantling every connection to inspect it for cold solder joints.
Which could really make your day.
So, it's generally a bad idea. But it _is_ legal.
Chris Lewis
> On Tue, 12 Feb 2002 21:27:20 +0000, No Spam wrote:
> > "Harry" <nos...@microsoft.com> wrote:
> > Proper terminals that clamp down on the wire tightened with a
> > screwdriver, sort of proper engineering ;-)
And where are the "proper terminals" when you're trying to splice
two wires together?
> Flipping heck I have to agree here, they look like a nightmare! I'd
> have to presume they're generally hidden behind walls or sockets or
> something so that some idiot couldn't tug the wires out of them?
> Give me a real screw terminal any day! Squeese them wires real hard!
North American in-wall electrical wiring systems use screw terminals
on devices, such as receptacles and so on. Wirenuts are only used
for wire-to-wire connections - inside boxes. Eg: splices.
All connections to electrical wiring (splices or terminations)
are done inside boxes (often 20ga steel), with cable clamps that
prevent tugs from pulling anything apart. The wiring is clamped
down to prevent flapping, and conduit is often required where the
wiring is exposed.
[There's lots of rules about mechanical protection.]
You'll never see a wirenut flapping in the breeze. Legally that is...
Chris Pflieger
Alan Beagley wrote:
>
> I do understand that the neutral is in a real sense grounded -- at the
> panel -- but does this section of the NEC apply to the neutral or only
> to the ground conductor itself.
>
> -=-
> Alan
>
NEC 2002 requires both the neutral and ground have pigtails. The section
listing this eludes me, maybe someone can cite the exact source.
> Thomas D Horne wrote:
> > . . . Many
> > receptacles come with directions that specifically illustrate feed
> > through connections. The only place that the practice is in fact
> > forbidden by the NEC © is in the neutral of multiwire branch circuits.
> > Viz.
> >
> > 300.13 Mechanical and Electrical Continuity -- Conductors.
> > (B) Device Removal. In multiwire branch circuits, the continuity of a
> > grounded conductor shall not depend on device connections such as
> > lampholders, receptacles, and so forth, where the removal of such
> > devices would interrupt the continuity.
> > --
> > Tom
--
Chris Pflieger
Design Engineer
Touchplate Technologies, Inc.
Mike Mccarty Sr
Trevor Barton <t...@Xisotek.co.uk> wrote:
)Flipping heck I have to agree here, they look like a nightmare! I'd
)have to presume they're generally hidden behind walls or sockets or
)something so that some idiot couldn't tug the wires out of them?
)Give me a real screw terminal any day! Squeese them wires real hard!
And weaken them!
--
char *p="char *p=%c%s%c;main(){printf(p,34,p,34);}";main(){printf(p,34,p,34);}
This message made from 100% recycled bits.
I can explain it for you, but I can't understand it for you.
I don't speak for Alcatel <- They make me say that.
DaveC
(in message <3C6C05CA...@swbell.net>):
> As long as it is not really bad, just shallow surface scuffs, then it is no
> problem at all. The wire
> nuts will scar the surface of the conductors with the spring inside and
> deeper than the serrations on
> electrician pliers will make.
Not the whole story.
While the wire nut, necessarily, will create scars on the copper wires, it
also, by design, holds those wires tight together (supposedly -- see my
original post) so there is no bending at those scar points.
If scarring occurs (typically) at the point where the insulation ends, there
is the possibility for breaking there. The insulated wire is stronger than
the wire beyond the insulation, and frequently that point (where the
insulation ends) is where a bend occurs (while stuffing it all into the box)
and a break will occur (if one occurs).
Dave
DaveC
(in message <3c69eb0b...@news.pacific.net.sg>):
> Rich Grise <rich...@earthlink.net> wrote:
>
>>> http://www.insidespaces.com/dictionary/Tool_Pages/wirenuts.shtml
>>
>> Yes, they're routinely used, but I wouldn't rely on one to
>> connect a stranded wire to a solid one. They sort of have
>> different twisting characteristics. You'd have to twist the
>> stranded wire really tightly, then twist it and the solid
>> wire together, quite securely, then apply the wire nut,
>> whose job is actually just to hold the wires together.
>
> Is there a picture of how the whole thing actually works? I look at it
> and have absolutely no idea how it could hold two pieces of wire
> together.
Here's a duplicate of a message I posted elsewhere in answer to the same
question:
-----
On Tue, 12 Feb 2002 4:11:00 -0800, Trevor Barton wrote (in message
<slrna6i1i...@sheep.isotek.co.uk>):
> What's a wire nut, for those of us in the Eurpoean arena?
< http://www.emfservices.com/electric.htm >
This site has a great photo (scroll down) that shows components commonly used
in N. America:
1. Plastic circuit box that may hold
A) just some wire connections
B) power outlet recptacles
C) light switches
2. "Romex" wire. This is the white multi-conductor cable coming in several
places at the top of the photo. Typically consists of these conductors:
A) hot (black insulation)
B) neutral (white insulation)
C) ground (bare or green insulation) Comes in 14 gauge, 12 gauge and 10
gauge (I believe), with and without ground conductors, 3-wire (for
multiple-switched (3- and 4-way) lights, etc.)
3. Wire nuts. The yellow thingie holding together the white wires on the
right. Comes in several sizes, color usually (but not always) denoting the
size. It's important to use only with the mix of wires specified by the
manufacturer: "two #12 wires; two #12 and two or three #14 wires..." etc.
(The above web site also has an interesting discussion of magnetic fields in
electric power environments...)
Wire nut manufacturer's page with photos:
< http://www.execpc.com/industrialelectronics/ideal/connect.html >
Nuts with "wings" are prefered, being easier to torque on properly.
Dave
Andrew
Where the nick in the wire is, you get a reduced cross-sectional area.
If you try to draw substantial currents, the area where the nick is
can heat up and possibly cause fire.
On Thu, 14 Feb 2002 18:45:07 GMT, Carl Porter <cpor...@swbell.net>
wrote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------
This Message is the private opinion, suggestion or question of the
sender and does not represent the views of Jupiters Technology.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------- nd the assembly.
Kirk
cle...@nortelnetworks.com says...
> Soldering is a perfectly acceptable practise in the CEC (and I believe
> the NEC as well). The trick is that it requires considerably more skill
> and time to do it right than wirenuts do, so you very seldom see it
> done. Especially by professional electricians, where time is money.
>
Not anymore in the NEC, except to repair K&T soldered connections.
The explanation I heard was that a soldered joint may be depending on
the solder for bonding, rather than a secure mechanical connection
(somehow, though, I doubt that anyone would just lay two 14 or 12
gauge wires on top of each other and solder them) and an overcurrent
situation might loosen the solder and arc before it tripped the
breaker.
--
Kirk
The runner who goes for the bronze
will lose it to one of the three runners going for the gold.
Tom Horne
> would be a no no in a code book. Could someone explain please?
>
side cutters (Kliens) to strip the insulation. There are very few
people who can do that without cutting a grove into the copper. This is
called ringing the conductor. When the wires are then mechanically
twisted to splice them the conductor has a tendency to break at the
point were it was "ringed". The code prohibits any technique that will
damage the conductors during installation.
--
Tom
Dale or Kitty Eastman
--
Dale or Kitty Eastman
a lead to a copper trace. Cut n jumper to fix in production design
errors. (pre ISO).
The milspec soldering class I had to take was 30 clock hours. Things
like curling leads like pigtails prior to stuffing the replacement
component into the board. Un potting a potted board was interesting
also.
Even got to solder mount a surface mount device for part of the
soldering test. Never did use smd's after that. It's actually been
awhile since I did electronics for pay.
First job out of the military, the inspectors thought I was nutz. The
company used wave soldered double sided boards. I questioned the quality
of the solder joints. Look at all these pits on the joints. It got a few
chuckles until I learned how far to drop my standards (and training) to
match the company spec's. 8?)
When they stuffed the IC's they would only bend pin's 1 & 8 or 1 & 9
depending on the pin count (14 or 16). Just enough so they could run the
boards through the wave solder.
So I do agree, anticipated stress has a lot to do with what can (need)
be done.
Dale or Kitty Eastman
So this fellow walks into the patent office and says I have this
invention that will allow our government to win any war.
The patent clerks asks, What does it do?
The fellow with the invention says, It will destroy ALL the enemy's
paperwork from the other side of the world.
The patent clerk thought about it for awhile and while handing the
patent application to the inventer said, "Here, fill out these forms in
triplicate."
--
Gilbert Smith
Kirk wrote:
> In article <a4hain$peh$1...@zcarh46f.ca.nortel.com>,
> cle...@nortelnetworks.com says...
> > Soldering is a perfectly acceptable practise in the CEC (and I believe
> > the NEC as well). The trick is that it requires considerably more skill
> > and time to do it right than wirenuts do, so you very seldom see it
> > done. Especially by professional electricians, where time is money.
> >
>
> Not anymore in the NEC, except to repair K&T soldered connections.
>
> The explanation I heard was that a soldered joint may be depending on
> the solder for bonding, rather than a secure mechanical connection
> (somehow, though, I doubt that anyone would just lay two 14 or 12
> gauge wires on top of each other and solder them) and an overcurrent
> situation might loosen the solder and arc before it tripped the
> breaker.
>
> --
> Kirk
Can you tell me where in the NEC soldered connections are prohibited? Looking
at the 1999 revision I can't see that they are prohibited except for
connecting service entrance conductors to service equipment. Is there a newer
revision? I don't want to use them, I just want to read what the code says.
Thanks.
Tracy
Strip insulator off of wires. (You generally, strip them a little long)
Twist wires together with linesmans pliers. (some skip this step, I consider that an unacceptable shortcut.)
Trim wires to proper length for proper sized wire nut. (The package will state the different combinations and sizes of wires that are appropriate for the wire nut.)
Twist the wire nut onto the wires. (Hold the wires in one hand and twist the nut with the other).
Check the joint to make sure all of the exposed conductor is within the wire nut skirt.
Tug on each wire to make sure you did a good job.
There is a little bit of craftsmanship involved, such as learning the proper strip length, learning to hold the wires properly with the linesmans pliers. Some people have no clue and shouldn't try. Others just need a little practice or coaching. When in doubt, hire an electrician.
L.Angel wrote:
Rich Grise <rich...@earthlink.net> wrote:http://www.insidespaces.com/dictionary/Tool_Pages/wirenuts.shtmlYes, they're routinely used, but I wouldn't rely on one to
connect a stranded wire to a solid one. They sort of have
different twisting characteristics. You'd have to twist the
stranded wire really tightly, then twist it and the solid
wire together, quite securely, then apply the wire nut,
whose job is actually just to hold the wires together.
Is there a picture of how the whole thing actually works? I look at it
and have absolutely no idea how it could hold two pieces of wire
together.
Bob Berryman
>Can you tell me where in the NEC soldered connections are prohibited? Looking
>at the 1999 revision I can't see that they are prohibited except for
>connecting service entrance conductors to service equipment. Is there a newer
>revision? I don't want to use them, I just want to read what the code says.
>Thanks.
Soldering is still permitted by the NEC.
There is _no_ change for the following rule in the 2002 NEC:
Qoute from (1999) NEC Section 110-14(b) Slices: "Conductors shall be spliced
or joined with splicing devices identified for the use OR by brazing, welding,
or soldering with a fusible metal or alloy. Soldered splices shall first be
spliced or joined so as to be mechanically and electrically secure without
solder and then soldered. All splices and joints and the free ends of
conductors shall be covered with an insulation equivalent to that of the
conductors or with an insulating device identified for the purpose......."
C M
"No Spam" wrote
> Those of us overseas would be interested in these "wire nuts" I can
> find this picture, is this *really* how wiring is done in homes in the
> US?
>
> http://www.insidespaces.com/dictionary/Tool_Pages/wirenuts.shtml
Yep. Before wire nuts, common practice was to twist the wires
together and wrap with lots of electrical tape (rubber or vinyl)
to insulate, and hope the tape didn't work loose.
Wire nuts are much easier, more reliable, and insulate a lot better.
They are also easier to remove, if you need to make changes.
There are even special silicone grease filled wire nuts that seal
around the wires to keep out moisture for damp locations.
Just make sure you use the right size.
I've used hundreds, rewired most of this old house,
and have never had a failure.
Good old Yankee ingenuity.
CM
Wand...@gulfcoast.com
wrote:
Or as I tell my apprentices "that's what those strippers are in your
tool pouch for". I'll occasionally catch someone doing it and have to
correct them. Usually It's a young apprentice trying to be fast or he
doesn't have his stripers handy. Improperly trained/lazy journeyman
have been known to do it too but they should know better. (bad doggy,
bad doggy)
Wanderer
TakeThisOut
Really? I know of 2 contractors who would fire, on the spot, any electrician
who wasted time switching from linesmans to wire strippers to linesmans again.
It doesn't take too much practice to learn how to strip wire without the
cutting edge of the pliers even touching the copper, let alone nicking it.
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TAKETHISOUT budysbackagain(@)THAT TOO a-oh-ell dot com
Jim Ghrist
NEC 2002 Rule 110.14 (B) Splices, states "Conductors shall be spliced or
joined with splicing devices identified for the use or by brazing, welding,
or soldering with a fusible metal or alloy. Soldered splices shall first be
spliced or joined so as to be mechanically and electrically secure without
solder and then be soldered."
Jim Ghrist
"Kirk" <kirkdarlin...@mindspring.com> wrote in message
news:MPG.16d60cc72...@news.mindspring.com...
Gilbert Smith
Bob Berryman wrote:
Thanks, Bob! It's good to have the facts, for a change!
Gene Bruce
Us folks in the defense industry learned a long time ago that nicks in wiring
are very bad. These nicks are actually points at which mechanical stresses
become concentrated. The nick eventually causes a crack, which eventually grows
completely through the wire. That is what we refer to technically as 'a broken
wire'.
The absolute best and only way we strip wires is with a thermal stripper, the
last I knew anyway.
But then again, residential wiring is rarely subjected to 10G vibration or
whatever.
A decent mechanical stripper is adequate for residential wiring, I'd think.
The guys who 'do just fine' with cutters IMHO are asking for lawsuits and
deservedly so. They may get a clean strip 90% of the time - but hat about the
other 0%? Do they notice when the strip is not clean? A few might.
On Thu, 14 Feb 2002 11:49:37 -0500, Tony Miklos <tmi...@netcarrier.com>
scribbled the following wisdom:
>I am reposting this because I am so darn curious why "scarring" wires
>would be a no no in a code book. Could someone explain please?
>
>Tony Miklos wrote:
>>
>> Michael Daly wrote:
>> >
>> > "Harry" <nos...@microsoft.com> wrote in message news:07V98.9723$Vt3....@nwrddc01.gnilink.net...
>> > >
>> > > An electrician friend showed me how he does it: he bares about 1 inch or so
>> > > of copper on each wire, twists them all together with a very wide-claw pair
>> > > of pliers
>> >
>> > Sounds like that would scar the surfaces of the wires. Isn't that against
>> > most electrical codes?
>>
>> I'm not an electrician, but have worked in electronics since the 70's.
>> I have dealt with many poorly designed circuits that run hot, and know
>> all about bad connections causing heat. What I would love to know is
>> why would scarring the wire be against code? Any wire nut with a metal
>> inside will scar the wires, correct? The backstab outlets and switches
>> all scar the wire. What am I missing here?
>>
>> --
>> Tony
Gene Bruce Ph/Voice Mail: (972)952-4937
Raytheon Systems Company FAX: (972)952-4275
2501 W. University, MS 8056 McKinney, Texas 75070
UNIX is a very user-friendly operating system.
However, it is very particular about just who it makes friends with.
Mike Mccarty Sr
DaveC <an...@me.invalid> wrote:
)On Thu, 14 Feb 2002 10:45:07 -0800, Carl Porter wrote
)(in message <3C6C05CA...@swbell.net>):
)
)> As long as it is not really bad, just shallow surface scuffs, then it is no
)> nuts will scar the surface of the conductors with the spring inside and
)> deeper than the serrations on
)> electrician pliers will make.
)
)Not the whole story.
)
)While the wire nut, necessarily, will create scars on the copper wires, it
[snip]
This is not clear to me. I have used pure nylon wire nuts. Are you
claiming that nylon is harder than copper?