New gas furnace/AC recommendations?
tra...@optonline.net
natural gas furnace and AC unit installed before the $1500 tax credit
runs out at the end of the year. Not much time left, I know. To get
the credit, it has to be at least 13 EER, and 16 SEER. My old
system is a 26 year old RUUD and I figure between the tax credit and
higher efficiency saving energy costs, it's time to do it.
Anyone have any recommendations as to brands/models that they have had
good results with or those to avoid? Any particular features? I'm
thinking it's going to be worth it to get a high enough efficiency
system to meet the $1500 tax credit, but probably don't need anything
more than that. Any features you've found useful on newer systems and
would recommend? Things like variable speed blowers, dual stage,
etc? But honestly, the current one is fine in terms of comfort,
can't complain about drafts, etc. The house is 3200 sq ft, current
furnace is 150K BTU input, 4.5 ton AC. Location is coastal NJ, with
high gas and electricity rates.
I know what one guy here will say, ie just keep running the old
one.....
brians
http://www.homeownershub.com/maintenance/New-gas-furnace-AC-recommendations-607895-.htm
brians wrote:
tra...@optonline.net wrote:
We've just done a series on selecting the best brands and efficiencies to
meet your goals. While it's focused on furnace replacement, the advice
should apply to air conditioning as well.
http://www.trusthomesense.com/blog/furnace-replacement-options-indianapolis-part-ii-brand-shopping/
http://www.trusthomesense.com/blog/furnace-replacement-in-indianapolis-part-iii-efficiency-options/
Hope this is helpful,
-------------------------------------
Brian
Homesense Heating | Cooling
www.TrustHomesense.com
Peter
>
>
> Anyone have any recommendations as to brands/models that they have had
> good results with or those to avoid? Any particular features? I'm
> thinking it's going to be worth it to get a high enough efficiency
> system to meet the $1500 tax credit, but probably don't need anything
> more than that. Any features you've found useful on newer systems and
> would recommend? Things like variable speed blowers, dual stage,
> etc? But honestly, the current one is fine in terms of comfort,
> can't complain about drafts, etc. The house is 3200 sq ft, current
> furnace is 150K BTU input, 4.5 ton AC. Location is coastal NJ, with
> high gas and electricity rates.
>
> I know what one guy here will say, ie just keep running the old
> one.....
We replaced our very old Columbia gas fired, forced hot-air furnace and
our old Ruud A/C unit 4-7 years ago - both with Carrier units. I won't
bother you with the model name/number because just as with cars, the
model names and numbers change almost yearly. We have not required a
single service call for either since installation and have been totally
pleased.
We chose a furnace model that is 92% efficient and saw our natural gas
consumption drop about 1/3 with no additional insulation added to the
house and no change in our thermostat settings. The HVAC guy estimated
that our old furnace was probably only about 60% efficient. The
difference in price at that time between 92% and 96% efficient was huge
(about 25% more) and we figured that we were unlikely to remain in our
house long enough to make back in gas expenses what we would pay for the
additional 4% in furnace efficiency if we popped for the 96% unit.
We had been having a problem with chronic refrigerant leaks in the old
A/C unit despite spending oodles to try to find the leak (never did).
The system needed at least a top-off and sometimes more than that every
season. Therefore, when we replaced the A/C, we not only replaced the
coil in the furnace and the compressor outside, but we replaced all the
pipes connecting them. We're glad that we did. No more leaks and our
A/C electric usage dropped by about 50% during the hottest summer
months. (We're in the D.C. metro area.)
The bottom line as someone else wrote is to find and use a well
qualified and honest HVAC contractor. For each job, we got 3 different
bids from contractors that were highly recommended in the D.C. area
edition of Checkbook magazine. For both jobs we ended up going with the
same contractor. Both times his bid was in the middle - about 10%
higher than the lowest bid and about 30% cheaper than the most expensive
one. We'd use him again in a heartbeat. Good luck in your area!
Home Guy
> The bottom line as someone else wrote is to find and use a well
> qualified and honest HVAC contractor.
Can someone explain why you need a contractor to install a furnace?
If you're a real red-blooded, meat-eating man who knows how to swing a
hammer, turn a wrench and wire a branch circuit, then you most certainly
can connect a few wires and bend some sheet metal and get a furnace
installed, and most of the A/C as well (assuming you need a new A/C
unit).
If I could wind back the clock and play a role in installing my furnace
and AC, I'd install a bypass duct so that my furnace fan doesn't have to
blow air through the AC coils in the winter.
If I *had* to buy a new furnace - then I'd buy a new furnace, gut the
shit out of it (rip out the electronics, ECM motor and ignitor) and
install conventional AC motor and standing pilot light, then I'd install
the thing myself.
mm
brian_at_trusth...@foo.com (brians) wrote:
>responding to
>http://www.homeownershub.com/maintenance/New-gas-furnace-AC-recommendations-607895-.htm
>brians wrote:
>
>tra...@optonline.net wrote:
>
>
>> I've decided to take my own advice and look in to getting a new
>> natural gas furnace and AC unit installed before the $1500 tax credit
>> runs out at the end of the year. Not much time left, I know. To get
>> the credit, it has to be at least 13 EER, and 16 SEER. My old
>> system is a 26 year old RUUD and I figure between the tax credit and
>> higher efficiency saving energy costs, it's time to do it.
>
>> Anyone have any recommendations as to brands/models that they have had
>> good results with or those to avoid? Any particular features? I'm
>> thinking it's going to be worth it to get a high enough efficiency
>> system to meet the $1500 tax credit, but probably don't need anything
>> more than that. Any features you've found useful on newer systems and
>> would recommend?
I had four guys out last month to look at my house, for a new oil
furnace and AC. It would have only been three, but the first company
struck me as incompetent, and indeed, I don't think they ever got back
to me with even a price! I called them because they did my new next
door neighbor's AC (her new home insurance paid for it, on a 31-year
old house! Amazing, I think.) and she was satisfied, and they are only
4 blocks away
It might have only been two estimates, but they waylaid me in Home
Depot and were so eager to send someone, who am I to say no.
My concentration is not what it used to be, and I've never been good
at shopping for complicated things****, and before this started, I
assumed that every company would either include a furnace humidifier
in the price (and force people who didn't want one to notice and get
them to take it off), or would try to sell me a humidifier. In fact,
none of them even mentioned it! But I remembered to ask the last guy
and he pooh poohed the idea. Said I didn't need one. Baloney. I had
one for 20 plus years, and it makes the house feel just as warm even
when the temp is lower. Yes, it takes some heat to evaporate (is that
the same as vaporize?) the water, but it's a substantial net savings,
I'm sure. I think the temp can be 2 to 4 degrees cooler when the
humidity is "normal", neither high nor low, as opposed to the dryness
of a northern winter indoors with a furnace and no source of humidity.
****Except cars.
I've never had condensation problems, on windows or anywhere, probably
because I don't set the humidifier to maximum, even the cheap little
one I have had.
Plus it's good for the furniture not to be in air so dry the furniture
cracks. Especially pianos and expensive furniture. And maybe
violins and woodwinds. Of course if you haven't had one up till now,
maybe all the cracking it can do has been done already. I don't know,
you'll have to ask a furniture guy about that. But you may get new,
expensive furniture and a humidifier is good. (When my brother was in
Viet Nam during the war, he bought a wooden carving of someone, about
9 inches tall by 2" wide, and it got cracks the entire length of the
carving, 3/16" wide!)
Anyhow, he wanted 800 dollars for the humidifier. When I squinted, he
said his wholesale cost was 600. The most expensive one at Home Depot
is less than 200, and I don't believe it's much worse. In addition,
he didn't have a flyer for the furnace! but he did for the humidifier,
and it was a bypass humidifier, which requires a round (flexible?)
duct from the return to the humidifier, which is in the furnace
outgoing duct. Because of how my furnace and every replacement I've
looked at my neighbors' houses is set up, it's too thick to fit
between the duct and the flue. But I know what would happen if I
signed the contract. They'd include it, and half way through
installation they 'd come to me and say it won't fit so they're going
to skip it.
Online however they have a Honeywell (non-bypass) Humidifier for under
200 that gets good ratings. I might buy that first and have them put
it in. Amazon sells it, among other places, and says "People who have
e bought this also bought this humidistat." One annoyed guy
commented that he had taken their word for this and bought a
humidistat, only to find that one is included with the humidifier.
Not surprisingly. I can get you the model number if you want, but so
far it was the only name brand, the only non-bypass humidifier I've
found.
Because of the space problem, 25 years ago, I could only install the
smallest and cheapest humidifier they sold, about 20 dollars, but it
was definitely good enough. I bought a second one about 10 years
later. It seemed a better buy than just buying a replacement entry
valve, but they don't sell that brand anymore and I haven't come
across anything nearly as cheap. They are all about 180 dollars iirc.
Less online I guess, but if I could get what I want in a store, I'd
probably buy it locally. I haven't looked at heating supply places.
Don't know one, and don't know how to get them to wait on me**
But I'll still tell you about the old one. My house is smaller than
yours, but I only used about 3 of the maximum 8 T-shaped fiberglass
"plates" that went in the water trough. The w
**although I had no trouble getting them to wait on me 27 years ago
when the transformer of my AC/furnace control box burnt out 2 months
after I bought a four-year old house, when I had 3 people visiting
from NY***. I went to a supply house and he wanted 140 dollars for
the whole control box, and I balked a bit, and he sold me just a
transformer for about 15! It was too big to fit where the original had
been so it's mounted on a shelf nearby. The furnace may have some
problems in the fire box, not sure, but the control box works fine
after 27 years. (Well, there was a time when it didn't. Another story)
***The AC went out at noon on Saturday, because the little transformer
failed; The water went out about 6 PM on Saturday, because the builder
didn't use flexible metal water pipe for the mains, and may have used
gravel that was too big, leaving the pipes resting on apexes of big
gravel pieces; And the electricity went out about noon on Sunday,
because everyone was using the AC and the transformer that supplied 8
or 16 townhouses burnt out, or something in it!
Another strange thing is that onely one of them tried to sell me
anything that would qualify for the tax credit. Maybe that's because
they didn't think I could afford it, but that's silly because with the
credit, it would usually cost no more than what they were trying to
sell me! In fact, you may want to plug in your own numbers, but my
impression about the AC was that the cheapest qualifying AC is more
expensive than the next less efficient one by the same amount as the
credit. That is, you get the upgrade to the better model for free,
but you don't really save money other than that, on the purchase. This
should be fairly easy to calculate with assurance. You get a refund of
so much percent, so many dollars, and you can find out the increase in
price from the model one step less efficient. (Or you can just buy
one. I wish I were capable of just buying one.)
And thn you save some money every year after that. Although even the
13 SEER (or whatever) is probably a good deal more efficient than what
you have, and the one that qualifies for the credit is only a little
more efficient than the one right below it that doesn't qualify.
(I need an oil furnace, so, while I ended up learning about gas too,
others can probably answer better.)
Very few oil burners are 90% efficient, and I guess they are
expensive. One of the oldest places in town, in the same family for
80 or 90 years, 3rd generation, told me almost no one buys those, so
the only part of the oil furnace that qualifies is a multi-speed fan.
Now unlike 30 years ago when the fan was one speed any time it's
running, now every fan has 2 speeds, one for AC and one for heat, but
multi-speed fans, ECM's, Electronically Controlled Motors (Fans), have
multiple speeds for different parts of the heating cycle and the
cooling cycle. In an oil furnace, 19 to 24 percent of the furnace
cost can be attributed to the fan -- the furnace company will tell you
the number -- and then one can get the credit on that part of the
furnace. But again, no one tried to sell me the mulit-speed fan, and
the guy with the 90 years and great reputation told me he didn't sell
oil furnaces with multi-speed fans. He said that on the phone, and he
wasn't one who came out for an estimate. I thought no one made them
but they do.
I still haven't found out how the multi-speed fan works, when it's low
speed, when it's mid-speed, and when it's high, and why it saves
money. It's seems clear that the fan uses a lot of current,
especially on high speed, but how it uses less when it's multi-speed,
and still gets the job done, I don't know. Frankly, my single speed
fan gets the job done, and only runs when the heat is on (or the AC)
which isn't that long in suburban Baltimore, and I like the feeling of
the blowing warm air. There's a duct right next to me when I sit at
the computer. I still don't have any idea what benefit I woudl get
from a multi-speed fan. Also, if the circulating air doesn't
circulate through the furnace fast enough, currently that would be a
problem. I don't know what could be different about modern furnaces,
oil or gas, that would make that different.
BTW, I've bbeen reading instructinos for installing AC, and they say
to flush and/or clean the pipes connecting the inside to the outside.
After 31 years, it seems worth it, and simpler, to replace them. IN
my case they are only about 6 feet long.
mm
>Peter wrote:
>
>> The bottom line as someone else wrote is to find and use a well
>> qualified and honest HVAC contractor.
>
>Can someone explain why you need a contractor to install a furnace?
>
>If you're a real red-blooded, meat-eating man who knows how to swing a
Hey, that's me!
>hammer, turn a wrench and wire a branch circuit, then you most certainly
>can connect a few wires and bend some sheet metal and get a furnace
>installed, and most of the A/C as well (assuming you need a new A/C
>unit).
I hope you're right, because that's my current plan. I'm out of work
again, except for a little bit on a maintenance project, and I have
more time than money. Plus if I actually have heat and AC when I'm
done, it will be very satisfying. (I'm going to hire someone to
remove the current freon, and come back later and adjust the furnace,
and connect and top off the AC.)
I'm hoping the hardest part will be getting the furnace down the
stairs! That will be hard, and I'll get a helper to do that, and
maybe ask advice here about a ramp or how to go one step at a time.
(It's a U shaped stairs, with two 90 degree turns on one landing.)
>
>If I could wind back the clock and play a role in installing my furnace
>and AC, I'd install a bypass duct so that my furnace fan doesn't have to
>blow air through the AC coils in the winter.
Is that really so bad? Everyone does it that way, don't they? If I
had it to do over, I would cut out a big hole for cleaning the thing,
and make a sheet metal cover. Right now, I have no idea how dirty it
is after 31 years.
Sort of instead of bypass duct, how about about a very wide duct, with
a piece of light metal plate that slides in grooves, to narrow the
duct in the summer so the air has to go through the A- or N-coil.^^^
Sort of like one of those sheets they slide in the box a woman is in
when they cut her in half.
^^^(Does anyone still sell A-coils? I'd really like to know. If so,
aren't N-coils a lot better?)
>
>If I *had* to buy a new furnace - then I'd buy a new furnace, gut the
>shit out of it (rip out the electronics, ECM motor and ignitor) and
What's wrong with a) the electronics, b) the ECM motor, and c) the
ignitor^^. Seriously. My oil furnace will have a and maybe b, so
I'm interested. Don't they make things work more smoothly?
^^Okay, I know what's wrong with the ignitor, but you must have some
experience if you think you can put in a pilot, especially on a
furnace designed for an ignitor. More than the average red-blooded
meat-eating man.
>install conventional AC motor and standing pilot light, then I'd install
>the thing myself.
Isn't it easier to install the way they sell it? IF those extra parts
are unreliable, when they actually break, you can put in the simple
replacements then.
I found a "book" online for 10 dollars on how to install a furnace.
Only 50 pages**, but it spends a good portion of its space on how to
do ductwork at the furnace, which is what I know the least about. But
be warned. He didn't send the download code that night, or after my
first two complaint emails, until after 4 weeks I complained to
PayPal. Then they sent me the code the same day. I was seriously
suspecting there was no book at all. But it doesn't deal at all with
installing even the N-coil, or the AC, or a humidifier. I guess I can
figure all that stuff out, but for a newbie like me, I would like
help. As it is, I'll have to wait to spring, because I'm afraid
some roadblock will take me a week, or a month, or two months, and I
can't be without heat that long. I wish I'd started 10 months ago,
but the AC compressor didnt' start tripping the breaker until June.
**There is also a similar book on Amazon, twice the price and half the
length. Maybe if the print is quite small it has more info, but 25
pages for 20 or so dollars doesn't seem like a good bet to me.
The book I got said the hardest part is getting someone to sell you
the furnace!
Bill
>
Bryant - 96.6% AFUE...
(Consumer Digest Best Buy)
http://www.bryant.com/products/furnaces/gas/evolution96.shtml
tra...@optonline.net
> On Fri, 03 Dec 2010 20:14:01 +0000,
>
>
>
>
>
> brian_at_trusthomesense_dot_...@foo.com (brians) wrote:
> >responding to
> >brians wrote:
A agree with you on the value of a good humidifier. As long as you
set it correctly,
it keeps the house far more comfortable, avoids those static shocks,
etc, without
water condensing and doing damage. I currently have an Aprilaire 700,
which is only
a year old and I plan on having them move it to the new furnace. Over
the years
I've seen so many positive comments on Aprilaire and I agree with
them. It's the
best one I've seen. The 700 is a non-bypass model and it includes an
outdoor
temp sensor so that it autmatically reduces the humidity level as the
outdoor temp
drops.
>
> Another strange thing is that onely one of them tried to sell me
> anything that would qualify for the tax credit. Maybe that's because
> they didn't think I could afford it, but that's silly because with the
> credit, it would usually cost no more than what they were trying to
> sell me! In fact, you may want to plug in your own numbers, but my
> impression about the AC was that the cheapest qualifying AC is more
> expensive than the next less efficient one by the same amount as the
> credit. That is, you get the upgrade to the better model for free,
> but you don't really save money other than that, on the purchase. This
> should be fairly easy to calculate with assurance. You get a refund of
> so much percent, so many dollars, and you can find out the increase in
> price from the model one step less efficient. (Or you can just buy
> one. I wish I were capable of just buying one.)
> And thn you save some money every year after that. Although even the
> 13 SEER (or whatever) is probably a good deal more efficient than what
> you have, and the one that qualifies for the credit is only a little
> more efficient than the one right below it that doesn't qualify.
It's amazing that they didn't mention or directly show you the tax
benefits.
The first company I have coming prominently features that in their
newspaper
ads. And I was thinking the same thing that you say above. That
the tax
credit is likely enough to about pay for the difference in price
between a somewhat
less efficient system that I might have bought vs one that meets the
reqts for
the credit. I think here there may also be a $1000 utility credit.
Combined that
could cut $2500 off the price, which is substantial.
I think one way it saves energy by using a lower speed when it can is
that with any fluid the energy it takes to move it increases
logarithmatically
with the speed. For example, with pool pumps, they now have multi-
speed
that circulate the water slowly for a much longer time. Even though
it runs
longer, it still moves the same amount of water with like 50% less
energy.
Also, I think the most efficient motors are now DC, which generally
are
completely variable in speed. But that's probably an example of what
I
would skip, because while it can save some more energy, it does add
complexity and if that motor, controller, etc fail, from what I've
heard, it's
a lot more costly than a two speed motor.
>
> BTW, I've bbeen reading instructinos for installing AC, and they say
> to flush and/or clean the pipes connecting the inside to the outside.
> After 31 years, it seems worth it, and simpler, to replace them. IN
> my case they are only about 6 feet long.
Good info. That's one thing I might not have thought to even ask. I
would
have assumed that considering mine are 26 years old, they would just
automatically replace them. Seems that would make sense for not only
the company, but also the manufacturer with their warrantly, etc. I
definitely want mine replaced.
Thanks for all the info.
Stormin Mormon
operating principles are used in all brands.
My experience has been to avoid Sears, and Trane. They use off
standard parts, and it's hard to get parts for them. Except to go to
Sears or Trane.
Goodman is the "discount" brand at my parts house. They have fairly
standard parts, and are inexpensive to repair. I've heaed that Goodman
is reasonable quality. The money you save on equipment costs is
signifigant.
Many folks have written that the installation is the important part.
Ask your friends and coworkers who they use. Call the company, and
have them come out for estimate. Avoid companies that manipulate,
pressure, or try to rush you into a quick decision.
Since the new system will be more energy efficient, the company may
reccomend a smaller system. It is very possible that the last company
over sized the equipment. So, the new sytem may very possibly be less
BTU and fewer tons. Many times, a smaller system will provide a lot
better comfort. The old AC may have a name plate of 4.5 tons, but
might actually be delivering 3 tons of cooling. So, a smaller system
may be needed.
Features. I'd ask for a whole house humidifier. My old boss installed
Aprilaire. Pipe the water from the hot side of the water heater, about
six or ten inches from the top of the WH. Put the outdoor AC unit on
the shade side of the house. Make sure the access doors face open
space, so the future techs can get at the parts. The optional BIG air
filter like a Spacegard is a good idea. They will probably replace the
thermostat, and might run new stat wires. A furnace and AC install
takes at least a full day for two guys working together. Might run
into two days. You may need electric space heater for while the guys
are working.
Having been a HVAC installer..... Please be sure to tell the guys to
use the bathroom as needed. And put out some VERY light food for them.
Cheese and crackers and soda pop or coffee. They will really totally
appreciate being fed. Smile a lot. Ask an occasional question. Be
generous with your praise (try not to sound like a total suck up; it's
a balancing act.) Lay down some old carpet between the door and the
furnace, so they can wear boots in and out, and not worry about your
clean floor. broken down cardboard boxes are OK, also. Or carpet
runners.
It's a good idea to have one or two adults home, just as a courtesy.
To answer questions, and such. They will appreciate that you are not
going to leave the house open and then accuse them of stealing the
family jewels. It's a balancing act to be there, but not be in the
way. Park your car on the street, and tell them they are expected to
park in the driveway. They will want to get the truck as close to your
cellar door as they can.
You can expect to see a pile of old equipment, and they should haul it
away as the job completes. As they rework the gas pipe, you may smell
the natural gas smell. It's OK to remind them "I smell natural gas..."
and they will reassure you that they are working on the pipes. The new
furnace has some protectant on the heat exchanger. When they light the
furnace, it will stink for an hour or so, as the heat exchanger burns
off the protectant. You may need to open the windows. This is a one
time event -- and should only stink for a short while.
AC systems behave totally diffferently in the cold weather. They
SHOULD come back when the weather warms up, and recheck the AC. Being
cold out, it's not possible to totally be sure the AC is working
correctly. The courtesy check in the spring should be included in the
install price. Please do not run the AC until after the courtesy
check. They may leave the disconnect "OFF" outdoors. Leave it off,
please.
--
Christopher A. Young
Learn more about Jesus
www.lds.org
.
<tra...@optonline.net> wrote in message
news:d4770b3a-6ad7-4d16...@o23g2000prh.googlegroups.com...
Stormin Mormon
drive up food, and everyone talking on cell phones, and planning to
"do lunch" on the PDA. You have my respect (not really).
Of course, after you put your new copper AC tubing in with compression
fittings and duct tape, it should run just fine. Service valves to
open? What's that? We don't need no steenkin service valves. Cut em
out with a Sawzall! Freon recovery? Real Men (TM) don't do that kind
of wimpy stuff.
I am humbled by your greatness.
--
Christopher A. Young
Learn more about Jesus
www.lds.org
.
"Home Guy" <Ho...@Guy.com>
wrote in message news:4CF99B60...@Guy.com...
Stormin Mormon
>certainly
>can connect a few wires and bend some sheet metal and get a furnace
>installed, and most of the A/C as well (assuming you need a new A/C
>unit).
I hope you're right, because that's my current plan. I'm out of work
again, except for a little bit on a maintenance project, and I have
more time than money. Plus if I actually have heat and AC when I'm
done, it will be very satisfying. (I'm going to hire someone to
remove the current freon, and come back later and adjust the furnace,
and connect and top off the AC.)
CY: Wishing you luck. Most HVAC guys want to do the whole process.
I'm hoping the hardest part will be getting the furnace down the
stairs! That will be hard, and I'll get a helper to do that, and
maybe ask advice here about a ramp or how to go one step at a time.
(It's a U shaped stairs, with two 90 degree turns on one landing.)
CY: Yes, that sounds challenging. If you have natural gas, most NG
furnaces are a bit lighter, and easier ot move around.
>
>If I could wind back the clock and play a role in installing my
>furnace
>and AC, I'd install a bypass duct so that my furnace fan doesn't have
>to
>blow air through the AC coils in the winter.
Is that really so bad? Everyone does it that way, don't they? If I
had it to do over, I would cut out a big hole for cleaning the thing,
and make a sheet metal cover. Right now, I have no idea how dirty it
is after 31 years.
CY: I've never seen a bypass for AC coils. Typical "cased coil" has an
end that comes apart for cleaning, etc.
Sort of instead of bypass duct, how about about a very wide duct, with
a piece of light metal plate that slides in grooves, to narrow the
duct in the summer so the air has to go through the A- or N-coil.^^^
Sort of like one of those sheets they slide in the box a woman is in
when they cut her in half.
CY: Sounds reasonable, though I've never seen one.
^^^(Does anyone still sell A-coils? I'd really like to know. If so,
aren't N-coils a lot better?)
CY: I've installed A coils. Though, M or W coils are shorter.
>
>If I *had* to buy a new furnace - then I'd buy a new furnace, gut the
>shit out of it (rip out the electronics, ECM motor and ignitor) and
What's wrong with a) the electronics, b) the ECM motor, and c) the
ignitor^^. Seriously. My oil furnace will have a and maybe b, so
I'm interested. Don't they make things work more smoothly?
CY: I don't find any big problem with the factory supplied
electronics.
^^Okay, I know what's wrong with the ignitor, but you must have some
experience if you think you can put in a pilot, especially on a
furnace designed for an ignitor. More than the average red-blooded
meat-eating man.
CY: Isn't he awesome?
>install conventional AC motor and standing pilot light, then I'd
>install
>the thing myself.
Isn't it easier to install the way they sell it? IF those extra parts
are unreliable, when they actually break, you can put in the simple
replacements then.
I found a "book" online for 10 dollars on how to install a furnace.
Only 50 pages**, but it spends a good portion of its space on how to
do ductwork at the furnace, which is what I know the least about. But
be warned. He didn't send the download code that night, or after my
first two complaint emails, until after 4 weeks I complained to
PayPal. Then they sent me the code the same day. I was seriously
suspecting there was no book at all. But it doesn't deal at all with
installing even the N-coil, or the AC, or a humidifier. I guess I can
figure all that stuff out, but for a newbie like me, I would like
help.
CY: I worked for six years as an installer. There is a lot to know.
As it is, I'll have to wait to spring, because I'm afraid
some roadblock will take me a week, or a month, or two months, and I
can't be without heat that long. I wish I'd started 10 months ago,
but the AC compressor didnt' start tripping the breaker until June.
CY: Start in the spring is very wise.
**There is also a similar book on Amazon, twice the price and half the
length. Maybe if the print is quite small it has more info, but 25
pages for 20 or so dollars doesn't seem like a good bet to me.
The book I got said the hardest part is getting someone to sell you
the furnace!
CY: I'm sure you will find one.
tra...@optonline.net
> On Fri, 03 Dec 2010 20:37:36 -0500, Home Guy <H...@Guy.com> wrote:
> >Peter wrote:
>
> >> The bottom line as someone else wrote is to find and use a well
> >> qualified and honest HVAC contractor.
>
> >Can someone explain why you need a contractor to install a furnace?
>
> >If you're a real red-blooded, meat-eating man who knows how to swing a
>
> Hey, that's me!
>
> >hammer, turn a wrench and wire a branch circuit, then you most certainly
> >can connect a few wires and bend some sheet metal and get a furnace
> >installed, and most of the A/C as well (assuming you need a new A/C
> >unit).
>
> I hope you're right, because that's my current plan. I'm out of work
> again, except for a little bit on a maintenance project, and I have
> more time than money. Plus if I actually have heat and AC when I'm
> done, it will be very satisfying. (I'm going to hire someone to
> remove the current freon, and come back later and adjust the furnace,
> and connect and top off the AC.)
I do a lot of my own projects, but installing a furnace/AC is not one
I'd tackle.
IMO, there are just two many issues. Examples would be correctly
sizing
the new furnace. I guess you could run the load calcualtions and you
do
have the experience with the current unit to go on. But I still
think that could
be an area where years of expertise could come in handy. For
example, my
current unit is 150K BTU input. I don't even know how that relates
to the current
specs of units. From looking, it seems most are a lot smaller than
that. Given
that it's 26 years old, my guess would be that I can easily get away
with a much
smaller new one. But exactly how much smaller, I'd prefer to get a
pro to tell me.
Then as you pointed out, you have the issue of removing the freon,
charging the new
system, etc. I guess if you know someone that will do it, that could
be dealt with.
But I wouldn't know who to call around here that would even consider
getting involved.
Then, what about the warranty? If you install it yourself, isn't the
warranty likely voided?
I'd also look at the specific reqts for the tax credit, ie what
documentation, etc is required.
That might preclude self-install.
You're also aware that the tax credit requires it to be installed by
the end of this year, right?
Doing a self-install, I guess one advantage might be that you could
fudge it a bit.
>
> I'm hoping the hardest part will be getting the furnace down the
> stairs! That will be hard, and I'll get a helper to do that, and
> maybe ask advice here about a ramp or how to go one step at a time.
> (It's a U shaped stairs, with two 90 degree turns on one landing.)
I don;t know, but I think you may be surprised how easy it is. IMO,
the
new one is likely to weigh substantially less than the old one. The
downside
to that is that from everything I've seen here, the new ones aren't
likely to
last the 26 years that the old one did.
>
>
>
> >If I could wind back the clock and play a role in installing my furnace
> >and AC, I'd install a bypass duct so that my furnace fan doesn't have to
> >blow air through the AC coils in the winter.
>
> Is that really so bad? Everyone does it that way, don't they? If I
> had it to do over, I would cut out a big hole for cleaning the thing,
> and make a sheet metal cover. Right now, I have no idea how dirty it
> is after 31 years.
First thing you'd have to do is figure out if it actually saves you
enough
energy costs in terms of reducing the air resistance or if it even
saves
any money at all. You're substituting at least one, if not two 90deg
turns
for the coils. I'd love to see any data that shows it's worth it.
>
>
>
> >If I *had* to buy a new furnace - then I'd buy a new furnace, gut the
> >shit out of it (rip out the electronics, ECM motor and ignitor) and
>
> What's wrong with a) the electronics, b) the ECM motor, and c) the
> ignitor^^. Seriously. My oil furnace will have a and maybe b, so
> I'm interested. Don't they make things work more smoothly?
>
> ^^Okay, I know what's wrong with the ignitor, but you must have some
> experience if you think you can put in a pilot, especially on a
> furnace designed for an ignitor. More than the average red-blooded
> meat-eating man.
>
> >install conventional AC motor and standing pilot light, then I'd install
> >the thing myself.
>
> Isn't it easier to install the way they sell it? IF those extra parts
> are unreliable, when they actually break, you can put in the simple
> replacements then.
Home Guy is the poster I was referring to in my original post when I
said
I know what one guy will tell me. Which is to just keep running the
26
year old system, because it's the smart thing to do. He thinks the
new
systems have too much complexity, so they are more failure prone, cost
more to repair, etc. He has a point. But given the current tax
credit,
utility rebates, energy costs, etc, it's hard to imagine how we won't
come
out ahead. You'd think that if he were rational, he's at least use a
new
system as it was made and wait for it to fail, then find out how much
the
part costs before ripping it apart and rebuilding it. Since he's so
concerned
about maintenance cost, I wonder what ripping it apart does to the
warranty?
:)
>
> I found a "book" online for 10 dollars on how to install a furnace.
> Only 50 pages**, but it spends a good portion of its space on how to
> do ductwork at the furnace, which is what I know the least about. But
> be warned. He didn't send the download code that night, or after my
> first two complaint emails, until after 4 weeks I complained to
> PayPal. Then they sent me the code the same day. I was seriously
> suspecting there was no book at all. But it doesn't deal at all with
> installing even the N-coil, or the AC, or a humidifier. I guess I can
> figure all that stuff out, but for a newbie like me, I would like
> help. As it is, I'll have to wait to spring, because I'm afraid
> some roadblock will take me a week, or a month, or two months, and I
> can't be without heat that long. I wish I'd started 10 months ago,
> but the AC compressor didnt' start tripping the breaker until June.
>
> **There is also a similar book on Amazon, twice the price and half the
> length. Maybe if the print is quite small it has more info, but 25
> pages for 20 or so dollars doesn't seem like a good bet to me.
>
> The book I got said the hardest part is getting someone to sell you
> the furnace!
Let us know how the install goes for you. From some of the botched
up
jobs I've seen, you do have one edge over at least some of the pros.
You
obviously care about doing it right.
Red Green
news:edfb9df8-0bac-4344...@o11g2000prf.googlegroups.com:
<snip>
>
> I do a lot of my own projects, but installing a furnace/AC is not one
> I'd tackle.
> IMO, there are just two many issues. Examples would be correctly
<snip>
Ditto.
My primary concern would be CO2 - the venting, burner, etc especially with
forced air. I'm sure many would say Ahhh nothing to it, don't have to worry
about that, that's overkill BS, etc. Then a house full of dead people shows
up.
A Local Authority inspection just might not be a bad thing with this type
of DIY.
Jeff Thies
> There is a limit how creative furnace makers can get. The same basic
> operating principles are used in all brands.
>
> My experience has been to avoid Sears, and Trane. They use off
> standard parts, and it's hard to get parts for them. Except to go to
> Sears or Trane.
>
> Goodman is the "discount" brand at my parts house. They have fairly
> standard parts, and are inexpensive to repair. I've heaed that Goodman
> is reasonable quality. The money you save on equipment costs is
> signifigant.
>
> Many folks have written that the installation is the important part.
> Ask your friends and coworkers who they use. Call the company, and
> have them come out for estimate. Avoid companies that manipulate,
> pressure, or try to rush you into a quick decision.
>
> Since the new system will be more energy efficient, the company may
> reccomend a smaller system. It is very possible that the last company
> over sized the equipment. So, the new sytem may very possibly be less
> BTU and fewer tons. Many times, a smaller system will provide a lot
> better comfort. The old AC may have a name plate of 4.5 tons, but
> might actually be delivering 3 tons of cooling. So, a smaller system
> may be needed.
>
How can that be? My understanding is that the rating is cooling
output, not BTU input like a furnace.
Just curious.
Jeff
Jeff Thies
>> hammer, turn a wrench and wire a branch circuit, then you most
>> certainly
>> can connect a few wires and bend some sheet metal and get a furnace
>> installed, and most of the A/C as well (assuming you need a new A/C
>> unit).
>
> I hope you're right, because that's my current plan. I'm out of work
> again, except for a little bit on a maintenance project, and I have
> more time than money. Plus if I actually have heat and AC when I'm
> done, it will be very satisfying. (I'm going to hire someone to
> remove the current freon, and come back later and adjust the furnace,
> and connect and top off the AC.)
Not recommending that you do this, but licences to buy Freon aren't hard
to come by. Neither is the equipment to recycle and install, from pawn
shops. It is a bit of money so economics run against it. There is
"science" behind loading the correct amount of freon, so make sure you
understand that clearly. Hiring this out is a good plan.
>
> CY: Wishing you luck. Most HVAC guys want to do the whole process.
Find someone who owns a number of houses (or a real estate agent you
trust) and ask who they use. It will be someone used to doing the task
at hand rather than everything, and for a better price. Don't go the big
company route unless you need the reassurance, there are a number of
competent hungry hands out there. Do it at their convenience, don't pay
up front and don't be a pain.
Jeff
Home Guy
> > Can someone explain why you need a contractor to install a
> > furnace? If you're a real red-blooded, meat-eating man who
> > knows how to swing a
>
> Hey, that's me!
Yes, and we both still run windows 98. Because I'm that type of "Guy".
> Sort of instead of bypass duct, how about about a very wide duct
Yes, that would work as well.
> > If I *had* to buy a new furnace - then I'd buy a new furnace,
> > gut the shit out of it (rip out the electronics, ECM motor
> > and ignitor) and
>
> What's wrong with a) the electronics, b) the ECM motor,
> and c) the ignitor^^. Seriously.
Electronics are fine in my den, but not my furnace. Just read these
home / hvac forums for how many people have had to replace various
sensors and main boards and how much those parts can cost. ECM motor is
a complete crock of shit. You save maybe 100 watts compared to running
a 1/4 HP AC motor (which is about 1 penny an hour, or about $100 a year
if the fan is running 24/7/365) but the motor will run you $400 to $800
to replace if it breaks. Besides, the extra 100 watts goes into heat
that you can use in the winter anyways. And the ignitor - ask how many
people have had issues with those.
> ^^Okay, I know what's wrong with the ignitor, but you must
> have some experience if you think you can put in a pilot,
> especially on a furnace designed for an ignitor.
> More than the average red-blooded meat-eating man.
You'd really only know once you have the unit taken apart. I would
assume that you'd simply place the pilot light in the same spot the
ignitor is located, and the flames will spread to the burners the exact
same way.
> Isn't it easier to install the way they sell it?
Sure it's easier, but...
> IF those extra parts are unreliable, when they actually break,
> you can put in the simple replacements then.
Then it's too late. You need the heat, and you don't have the time to
perform custom mods. The best time to do it is when your old furnace is
still up and running.
> I found a "book" online for 10 dollars on how to install a
> furnace.
Instructions:
1) shut off your gas valve which should be located 6 feet from your
furnace. Shut off the electrical service to the furnace at your main
breaker panel.
2) disconnect thermostat and AC power from the furnace cabinet.
disconnect the gas line from the furnace.
3) disconnect the return air and plenum ductwork from the furnace
cabinet. Leave AC coils in place in their duct. Support with wires
from above if necessary.
4) move old furnace out of the way, move new furnace into place.
5) modify ductwork as needed.
6) connect ac power and thermostat wires to new furnace.
7) connect natural gas line to furnace. modify pipe lengths and bends
as necessary. use pipe sealant as directed.
8) turn on gas valve to furnace. check for leaks (use soapy water if
you want).
9) turn on AC power to furnace at main breaker panel.
10) program your thermostat as desired.
> The book I got said the hardest part is getting someone to sell
> you the furnace!
I also suspect that would be the situation. The bastards...
tra...@optonline.net
> mm wrote:
> > > Can someone explain why you need a contractor to install a
> > > furnace? If you're a real red-blooded, meat-eating man who
> > > knows how to swing a
>
> > Hey, that's me!
>
> Yes, and we both still run windows 98. Because I'm that type of "Guy".
That sure puts a perspective on things. Windows 98 was notoriously
crash prone,
difficult to protect from a security standpoint and everyone I know
was happy to see
it replaced by newer OS's that were far superior. There is no
comparison to current
OS products. What exactly do you have against the new OS's?
Then we have the fact that with just about any new PC you buy today,
you wind up
getting the latest OS included as part of the price. HP is selling a
midrange computer
with an AMD Phenom II quad core, 4GB of RAM, 650MB of disk, CD ROM
drive, Win 7
Microsoft Office and Norton Internet Security for $425 with free
shipping, So, either you're re-installing
Win98 on new computers, which seems rather improbable given the lack
of Win98 drivers for
current hardware, or you're still using a 15 to 20 year old PC. Still
on dialup too?
Home Guy
> > > Can someone explain why you need a contractor to install a
> > > furnace?
>
> I do a lot of my own projects, but installing a furnace/AC is not
> one I'd tackle.
I was speaking more about the furnace, not the AC. The furnace is just
a glorified barbeque unit. If you were replacing the AC as well, then I
guess it depends on what parts of the old system you were keeping -
naturally the outdoor unit would be replaced, but the evaporator coils
near the furnace could stay.
As I haven't had the need to shop for a furnace, I don't know how many
of them come with integrated evaporator coils (or perhaps none of them).
Because I have lots of space around my furnace, I'd probably get
creative and build a separate air-handling system for the furnace and
evap coils - there's no reason why both air systems need to go through
the furnace. I could have a separate motor and filter for summer use,
and with some sheet-metal ducting and gating I can easily change the
system over to winter heating and completely bypass the evap coils.
Another thing I'd do for the summer system is to have the ability to
draw return air directly from the outside through a dedicated duct and
gate off (close off) the return air from the house-hold interior return
air duct. This allows me to pull cool air directly from outside and
force-flood the house with cool air - on those warm or hot days where
the house has warmed up by evening and your only normal option is to run
the AC to cool the house. So I pull cool return air from outside, open
some windows and the fan will force the warm air out the windows.
None of this is normally done, because home-owners can't imagine or
don't know about this, and HVAC contractors would charge a fortune to do
it for someone else, but I bet some of them do it for their own homes.
Just like some of them put their AC condensor coils in their swimming
pool to heat their pool while efficiently removing heat from the coils.
> IMO, there are just two many issues. Examples would be
> correctly sizing the new furnace.
New furnaces with variable gas valves gives them the ability to dial up
or down the heat output.
I do this right now with my 34 year-old furnace. I dial down the gas
going to the burners so that maybe they're getting 1/3 of the full gas
supply. If I turn it down too far, the fan cycles on and off while the
burners are on. By turning down the gas, I'm modulating the heat output
of the furnace much like a super-expensive modern furnace does. So my
furnace runs more constantly (like a modern furnace does) and my
heat-extraction efficiency goes up (because the temperature of my
combustion exhaust is lower).
Most people don't know that they can dial-down the gas supply of their
old furnace - just like you can with your barbeque or your gas stove.
There's no reason why you need to operate an old furnace heat-output
either full-on or full-off.
If I find that in the coldest part of winter that my furnace is running
all the time but the house temperature is lower than I want, then I'll
just go down to the furnace and turn the gas valve at the regulator a
little more clock-wise and increase the size of the flames and that will
do the job.
> Then as you pointed out, you have the issue of removing the freon,
> charging the new system, etc. I guess if you know someone that
> will do it, that could be dealt with.
I agree that you need a contractor to deal with freon extraction,
balancing, charging, etc, but the more you can do yourself (like run the
lines, connect as much of the system as you can) the more you'll save.
> Then, what about the warranty?
That's why I'd preferr to retro-fit the furnace with standard technology
and do away with all the sensors.
It's crazy that they removed the standing pilot light (which uses maybe
$10 worth of gas all year) and they went with electronic ignition, and
by doing so they had to add all sorts of temperature sensors to know if
the main gas supply should be shut off in case the ignitor doesn't
work. Talk about over-kill to save $10 worth of gas (even less if you
normally turn off your pilot light in the summer).
> If you install it yourself, isn't the warranty likely voided?
I reject all attempts to sell me warranties for the things I buy. We
all laugh at the warranties that are sold at electronic stores - don't
we?
Do you think I'd replace an ECM furnace motor with another ECM furnace
motor? Hell no. If I didn't already retrofit a new furnce with a
regular AC motor, I would certainly do that if the ECM motor died on
me. To hell with the warranty. It's less agrivating to fix most things
yourself than to deal with the warranty (the exception - vehicles).
Most electronics have a manufacturer warranty anyways, and their small/
portable enough the shlep them back to the retailer or manufacturer when
they break.
> I'd also look at the specific reqts for the tax credit, ie
> what documentation, etc is required.
> That might preclude self-install.
I bet that most HVAC companies have hiked their prices because they know
that home-owners are getting these gov't rebates.
I'd rather spend $2000 on a new furnace and install it myself, rather
than spend $6000 to have a contractor install it and then later I get
$2000 back in gov't credits. Do the math.
> You're also aware that the tax credit requires it to be
> installed by the end of this year, right?
In what country?
> Home Guy is the poster I was referring to in my original post
> when I said I know what one guy will tell me. Which is to
> just keep running the 26 year old system, because it's the
> smart thing to do. He thinks the new systems have too much
> complexity, so they are more failure prone, cost more to
> repair, etc. He has a point. But given the current tax
> credit, utility rebates, energy costs, etc, it's hard to
> imagine how we won't come out ahead.
Once the credits are gone, contractor prices will also come down.
> You'd think that if he were rational, he's at least use a
> new system as it was made and wait for it to fail, then
> find out how much the part costs before ripping it apart
> and rebuilding it.
Once it fails, it's too late to tinker and retro-fit it with standard
technology. You don't have that luxury when your house needs the heat.
> Since he's so concerned about maintenance cost, I wonder what
> ripping it apart does to the warranty?
>
> :)
Well, if it no longer has an electronic ignitor, control motherboard and
ECM motor, then why exactly should I care about the warranty for those
items?
:)
Home Guy
> > Yes, and we both still run windows 98. Because I'm that
> > type of "Guy".
>
> That sure puts a perspective on things. Windows 98 was
> notoriously crash prone,
Ok, I don't want this thread to seriously derail at this point, so I
will simply say that there are reasons why people perceived win-98 to be
seriously flawed that had more to do with the quality of computers and
hardware available in 1999-2000, like faulty video drivers and
pathetically small amounts of installed ram. There is a very healthy
and active community of people that run win-98 on moderm motherboards
with 512mb of ram (and up to several gb). As I type this, I'm running a
P4 2.5 ghz PC with 512 mb ram and 2 hard drives (80 gb and 400 gb SATA)
with KernelEx API enhancements (which lets me run quite a bit of XP-only
software).
Very reliable and stable, hardly touchable by any of the hundreds of
exploits for NT-based windows systems. XP was the emperor with no
clothes. It was a disaster for the first 4 years of it's life. We live
with spam today because of all the home systems that used XP from 2002
through 2006 that got infected with backdoor trojans that turned them
into botnets. It was a crime for Microsoft to force XP into home
computers back in 2002, and it really wasn't fit enough for home use
until SP2. But everyone conveinently forgets XP's history in that
regard.
> difficult to protect from a security standpoint
Complete myth.
There never were any network worms that could work on win-98 systems.
Meanwhile there were about 6 different worms over the past 7 years that
can infect NT/XP systems just by them having an internet connection - no
user intervention required.
NT/XP was designed to be used by corporations and enterprises on closed
networks, behind firewalls, managed by IT departments. It's only since
mid 2006 (XP-SP2) did it become somewhat secure for the average
home-owner/user to use XP without help and protection from an on-site IT
staff.
Go to secunia.org and look at the security issues for different versions
of windows. Win-98 has a pathetically small number of issues (33?) -
many of them of low importance. Meanwhile, XP has hundreds.
> Then we have the fact that with just about any new PC you buy
> today
I don't buy PC's - I build mine from scratch. I don't own any laptops
or netbooks - don't need em.
I have access to binders full of Microsoft software. MSDN, technet,
etc. I have set up hundreds of XP machines at my $DayJob$. I've even
set up something called Multipoint Server 2010 (based on Server 2008
R2).
I run office 2000 Premium SR1. It's nice, because no validation is need
to install (just like no validation needed for win-98). Office 2003?
2007? 2010? I have them all at work. What do most of our work
computers run? Windows 98 with Office 2000. Why? Because if it ain't
broke, you don't f*ck with it.
I know my shit, and what I know is that Microsoft's life blood is to
keep selling you a new OS every 3 years, and they'll do what-ever they
can to beat their old OS's into the ground. If Win-98 was really as bad
as everyone thinks it is, I would leave it in a second, and I have any
number of options at my disposal at no cost to me. I have the CD's and
product keys for ALL versions of windows since windows 95 up to Windows
7.
But I keep using windows 98 for my home computers and my desktop
computer at work. What does that tell you? Does it tell you that I
like to have FULL ACCESS to my own computer? Does it tell you that NTFS
is really a crock of shit compared to FAT32? Does it tell you that I
don't particularly like the idea of WGA? Or that I don't like DRM built
right into the kernel of my OS (as with Vista and 7)? Or a dozen new
system vulnderabilities discovered every month?
Keep drinking the coolaid. Microsoft and it's ecosystem of software and
hardware partners are loving you for it.
tra...@optonline.net
> trad...@optonline.net wrote:
> > > Yes, and we both still run windows 98. Because I'm that
> > > type of "Guy".
>
> > That sure puts a perspective on things. Windows 98 was
> > notoriously crash prone,
>
> Ok, I don't want this thread to seriously derail at this point, so I
> will simply say that there are reasons why people perceived win-98 to be
> seriously flawed that had more to do with the quality of computers and
> hardware available in 1999-2000, like faulty video drivers and
> pathetically small amounts of installed ram.
Last time I checked, video drivers are considered part of and ship
with the OS,
at least today. The video drivers
I'm using on the PC I'm writing this on were shipped as part of
Windows XP. Upon
installation, the OS installer detects the hardware and installs the
appropriate driver. That's
one of the benefits of XP and more modern OS's. The drivers for
everything the typical
user needs are tested, certified and sold with the OS
As for the quality of computers in 2000, it's rather strange that if
hardware were the problem,
those same computers did not crash when running NT.
>There is a very healthy
> and active community of people that run win-98 on moderm motherboards
> with 512mb of ram (and up to several gb). As I type this, I'm running a
> P4 2.5 ghz PC with 512 mb ram and 2 hard drives (80 gb and 400 gb SATA)
> with KernelEx API enhancements (which lets me run quite a bit of XP-only
> software).
Yeah, I'm sure it's a real stable gem and a marvel that should be in
the Smithsonian
for all to admire.
>
> Very reliable and stable, hardly touchable by any of the hundreds of
> exploits for NT-based windows systems. XP was the emperor with no
> clothes. It was a disaster for the first 4 years of it's life.
Strange because I used it on several PCs from the time of it's first
release and
I experienced no such disasters. It was an immediate improvement.
>We live
> with spam today because of all the home systems that used XP from 2002
> through 2006 that got infected with backdoor trojans that turned them
> into botnets. It was a crime for Microsoft to force XP into home
> computers back in 2002, and it really wasn't fit enough for home use
> until SP2. But everyone conveinently forgets XP's history in that
> regard.
Nonsense. The only reason more spam originates from XP, Vista, or
Win 7
systems is because there are so many more of them out there and
consequently
they are the systems targeted. Why would any hacker or virus
developer waste
their time screwing around writing for Win98 in 2006, when it was
basicly extinct?
>
> > difficult to protect from a security standpoint
>
> Complete myth.
Tell us what marvel of security software you're using that offers
realtime protection
from viruses and malware on Win98. None of the major security
software vendors even offer
a product that runs on Win98 anymore. Not Norton, not McAfee,
Kaspersky, TrendMicro, none
of them. The best you can find is some shareware that may find the
virus when you manually
run it after the virus is already on your system. None of those
that I'm aware of provide removal either.
>
> There never were any network worms that could work on win-98 systems.
> Meanwhile there were about 6 different worms over the past 7 years that
> can infect NT/XP systems just by them having an internet connection - no
> user intervention required.
You think MAYBE that's because of factors like it just took time for
the worms
and the sophistication of hackers to develop? Any reasonable person
knows
perfectly well that if Win98 was sitting all over the worlds networks
today, it would be MORE
prone to attack by viruses today. That argument is like saying there
were never
any terrorists that used a DC3, so it was a superior airplane to a
767.
>
> NT/XP was designed to be used by corporations and enterprises on closed
> networks, behind firewalls, managed by IT departments. It's only since
> mid 2006 (XP-SP2) did it become somewhat secure for the average
> home-owner/user to use XP without help and protection from an on-site IT
> staff.
LOL. As I said, I used XP for a decade, from the start, with no such
problems.
What you're suggesting, that Win98 is or was more secure than XP, is
laughable.
>
> Go to secunia.org and look at the security issues for different versions
> of windows. Win-98 has a pathetically small number of issues (33?) -
> many of them of low importance. Meanwhile, XP has hundreds.
You think just maybe that could be because those that develop viruses
and
those that try to hack systems evolved over time, became more
prevalent over
time? Consequently they are spending their time to hack into the
systems
that are most widespread and useful to hack with. In other words,
for the last
decade, just like other software developers they haven't given a rat's
behind about Win98.
Yet, you mistake that as a feature of Win98.
>
> > Then we have the fact that with just about any new PC you buy
> > today
>
> I don't buy PC's - I build mine from scratch. I don't own any laptops
> or netbooks - don't need em.
Figures you'd follow that strategy. Kind of like the guys I see
bidding up
systems on Ebay. The seller has a two year old PC and states in the
listing over and over that they don't know if it works, sold as is, it
turns
on, but there is no video, no cables, no software, etc. Yet I see
guys
bidding it up to over $200. Over at HP, you can get a brand new
midrange PC with
Win 7 and Microsoft Office, warranty, support, etc for $425. Does that
$200
box sound like a good deal to you?
You couldn't buy the indivdual components on that HP system for
anywhere
near $425. You think you're going to get an AMD Phenom II X4 for
anything
close to what HP buys it for? How about that 1GB drive? Even just
the hardware
components would be more than that. And then, after you do the
integration,
using parts from God knows where, when it doesn't work, you can argue
with
the seller about whether the parts were deffective before or after you
screwed
around with them. I suppose you'd prefer to build your own TV too.
>
> I have access to binders full of Microsoft software. MSDN, technet,
> etc. I have set up hundreds of XP machines at my $DayJob$. I've even
> set up something called Multipoint Server 2010 (based on Server 2008
> R2).
>
> I run office 2000 Premium SR1. It's nice, because no validation is need
> to install (just like no validation needed for win-98). Office 2003?
> 2007? 2010? I have them all at work. What do most of our work
> computers run? Windows 98 with Office 2000. Why? Because if it ain't
> broke, you don't f*ck with it.
That sounds like the corporate strategy used by GM, Chrysler, and
Lucent Technologies.
>
> I know my shit, and what I know is that Microsoft's life blood is to
> keep selling you a new OS every 3 years, and they'll do what-ever they
> can to beat their old OS's into the ground.
Really? Wow, you mean just like every 3 years or so I can get a new
cell
phone that has way more features, better call quality, better
bandwith, internet
access, longer battery life, etc? My what blood suckers, all of them!
>If Win-98 was really as bad
> as everyone thinks it is, I would leave it in a second, and I have any
> number of options at my disposal at no cost to me. I have the CD's and
> product keys for ALL versions of windows since windows 95 up to Windows
> 7.
Almost everyone knows how inferior it was to the OS's we run today.
>
> But I keep using windows 98 for my home computers and my desktop
> computer at work. What does that tell you? Does it tell you that I
> like to have FULL ACCESS to my own computer? Does it tell you that NTFS
> is really a crock of shit compared to FAT32? Does it tell you that I
> don't particularly like the idea of WGA? Or that I don't like DRM built
> right into the kernel of my OS (as with Vista and 7)? Or a dozen new
> system vulnderabilities discovered every month?
I'd say it, together with your constant vulgarity and the fact that
you claim you
would take any new furnace apart to tear out the modern technology
parts before
installing it tells me that you aren't as smart as you think you are
and you have
some serious issues.
>
> Keep drinking the coolaid. Microsoft and it's ecosystem of software and
> hardware partners are loving you for it.
Yeah, they get a whole lot of money out of me. Let's see, last $
they got was when I
bought a PC back in 2001 with XP installed on it. That might have
amounted to $50
at most. Then, this year I bought a new HP computer with Win 7 and
Office. Maybe
they got $75 out of that. Big deal. Compare that to your cell
phone bill. Or your cable
bill. Oh wait, let me guess, you don't have those either, right?
Home Guy
> Last time I checked, video drivers are considered part of and ship
> with the OS, at least today.
Hardware drivers (video, chipset, etc) are written by the manufacturers
of those components. They are made available to Microsoft for
incorporation into the distribution CD's that Windows comes on.
Drivers are updated all the time, especially for video cards, and the
best drivers for most things are almost always obtained from the
manufacturer's website, not from the Windows installation CD.
Now if you're talking laptops or netbooks, that's a slightly different
story, as those hardware components are custom-integrated into the final
product and there may never be driver updates created for those hardware
components. When it comes to desktop PC's, unless you have a "boutique"
computer (HP, Compaq, Dell) then most likely there are better versions
of various hardware drivers available on the net vs the ones that
shipped with the computer originally or that come on the Windows CD.
Windows 98 was plagued by buggy AGP video card drivers and even the AGP
bus itself was still being improved (from an electrical / signalling
POV) back during the time when win-98 was introduced and used (1998 -
2002). Video cards and drivers were significantly better and more
reliable in 2002 than they were in 1998.
> The video drivers I'm using on the PC I'm writing this on were
> shipped as part of Windows XP. Upon installation, the OS
> installer detects the hardware and installs the appropriate
> driver. That's one of the benefits of XP and more modern OS's.
Windows 98 was no different. The win-98 CD comes with hundreds of
drivers for all sorts of hardware devices from dozens of manufacturers,
and hundreds if not thousands more win-98 drivers are available on the
web for new devices that didn't exist back in 1998/1999.
It was only during 2006 that drivers for new hardware products stopped
being written for windows 98.
> As for the quality of computers in 2000, it's rather strange that
> if hardware were the problem, those same computers did not crash
> when running NT.
NT did crash. But more to the point - NT systems were usually given the
luxury of more installed RAM. Any OS becomes unstable when given a
small amount of memory, and Win-98 systems at the time were severely
handicapped because they usually had a pathetic 8 to 32 mb of installed
RAM.
Another thing is that when a program crashes under NT, it doesn't take
the OS with it. But Win-9x doesn't have the same separation of OS and
App memory space, so a badly behaving program can crash a win-9x
computer. You might think this is a good thing, but it's largely
irrelavent, because you probably won't be running a badly-behaved App
for very long regardless what OS you use.
> XP was the emperor with no clothes. It was a disaster for
> the first 4 years of it's life.
>
> Strange because I used it on several PCs from the time of
> it's first release and I experienced no such disasters.
XP was extremely well known as being easily exploitable back during 2002
through 2004, and slightly less exploitable in 2005 - 2006. Ask anyone
who was in IT during those years.
> It was an immediate improvement.
You noticed an improvement because XP most likely came installed on a
new computer, and the specs of that new computer were likely much better
than the specs of of the win-98 computer that it replaced.
The years 1998 through 2003 saw a drastic improvement in the capability,
performance, stability and reliability of computer hardware
(motherboard, hard drives, video cards, RAM). You can't compare win-98
with XP without taking that into account.
> > We live with spam today because of all the home systems that
> > used XP from 2002 through 2006 that got infected with backdoor
> > trojans that turned them into botnets.
> > But everyone conveinently forgets XP's history in that
> > regard.
>
> Nonsense. The only reason more spam originates from XP, Vista,
> or Win 7 systems is because there are so many more of them out
> there
There were major flaws in XP back in 2002 through 2006 that made them
easy targets for remote access and control by hackers. Those flaws
relate to Microsoft's design goals that XP was first and formost a
business-level operating system and had lots of extra "stuff" (services)
turned on that were completely unnecessary for home users. Windows 98
either did not have those services or they were not turned on by default
as they were with XP, and because of code differences the win-98
versions either did not have any vulnerabilities or if they did, they
were not exploitable in a reliable and consistent way as they were with
XP.
There were plenty of Win-98 computers on the internet during 1998
through 2002, but hardly any of them were exploited because they simply
weren't vulnerable, and many win-98 computers continued to be used into
2003 and 2004. When you read detailed reports and white-papers
regarding trojans and botnets, you find that they were overwhelmingly
composed of XP machines back in 2003 through 2005, even though there
were still a significant number of win-98 machines in use at the time.
> Why would any hacker or virus developer waste their time
> screwing around writing for Win98 in 2006, when it was
> basicly extinct?
Hackers were always looking for vulnerabilities in all OS's in use at
any given time. The truth is that there were hardly any vulnerabilities
in win-98. Ever.
> Tell us what marvel of security software you're using that offers
> realtime protection from viruses and malware on Win98.
Usually - nothing.
The main AV product that I used on my home and company PC's is/was
Norton AntiVirus 2002 (and note: NAV did not become bloatware until
version 2003 and later). NAV 2002 can still be updated with current
virus scan engine and definition files using Symantec's "intellgent
updater" package - but Symantec doesn't want you to know that.
But I mostly don't bother to update the definitions on the 15 or so
win-98 computers that I own or manage because they quite simply have
never gotten exposed to any malware in the past 7 or so years.
And it's funny when I'm surfing a website and I get the fake-AV popup
that wants me to download some software (which I do just to sample it
and send it to virustotal.com) or maybe some rogue web-page will trigger
my browser to download a malicious pdf file which will cause Acrobat
Reader 6 to start up - and display a harmless error message - because
acrobat reader 6 is not vulnerable to any of the various pdf exploits
that have been discovered in the past few years.
Every once in a while I'll take the hard drive from my win-98 systems
and slave them to an isolated XP system running several different AV
software and scan the drives for malware. NONE is ever found.
From an IT management point of view, it has been an absolute pleasure to
own and operate about a dozen windows-98 systems in a corporate / small
business environment for the past 10 years. From payroll to accounting
to production to manufacturing to networking, win-98 works well in those
rolls with the software we have, and I spend zero time having to worry
or deal with security or malware from the internet. It's also been a
very cost-effective solution not "upgrading" to what-ever Microsoft says
is the required OS to use. Anyone dancing to Microsoft's tune is indeed
a fool.
ransley
And that warranty goes down the drain, 10 yr extended and lifetime
heat exchanger you loose. With thinner heat exchangers and
electronics, odds are you just lost your savings.
Vic Smith
>
>That's why I'd preferr to retro-fit the furnace with standard technology
>and do away with all the sensors.
>
>It's crazy that they removed the standing pilot light (which uses maybe
>$10 worth of gas all year) and they went with electronic ignition, and
>by doing so they had to add all sorts of temperature sensors to know if
>the main gas supply should be shut off in case the ignitor doesn't
>work. Talk about over-kill to save $10 worth of gas (even less if you
>normally turn off your pilot light in the summer).
>
I don't like all the fail safe points on the new furnaces, because any
one of them failing can leave you without heat.
But you've got your work cut out to modify as you want to.
First, toss the motherboard.
Toss the ignitor.
Toss the flame sensor.
Toss the roll out sensors.
Toss the inducer, or unplug it.
Find a thermocouple controlled gas valve that will fit in place of the
electronically controlled valve that came with the unit.
Rig a pilot light.
Then figure out what to do with the many loose wires, how to relay the
main fan speed (you tossed the existing relays with the motherboard),
decide whether to rig an over temp sensor, etc.
You might need to rig a new transformer if that was on the
motherboard. I don't know.
I briefly considered replacing the motherboard on mine when I was
mentally shotgunning parts (I only wasted 6 bucks on an inducer
diaphragm valve.)
The mass of wires connected to the motherboard scared me off.
I always got it going again by cleaning the flame sensor.
Even if I had just cleaned it a couple days ago.
Main fan was always inconsistent too, sometimes running for a minute
after flame off, sometimes not.
When the main fan relay (on motherboard) stuck so there was only low
speed - not enough to heat/cool - I called in a pro.
He had it going in 10 seconds by flexing the motherboard.
Said it could stick again, so I had him put in a new motherboard.
Took the pro about 15 minutes to replace the motherboard.
He only cussed twice.
No problems for the 3 years since.
That motherboard was flaky from the getgo.
I think flaky/failing motherboards are the biggest problem with
modern furnaces, not the sensors.
Heat, undersized relays, etc.
A flame sensor problem is easy to diagnose - gas valve opens, then
closes. Cleaning sensor with steel wool always fixed that.
Ignitor failure is easy to diagnose - inducer clicks diaphragm switch,
and no glow within 15 seconds. Replaced one ignitor.
MB leds give that info too.
Sensors and ignitors are cheap and easy to replace.
Motherboards cost hundreds - think mine was $320.
Came across a post somewhere where a guy had 2 Carrier motherboards
fail in 4 years, so he wired external relays to take the load and the
3rd motherboard has lasted 6-7 years so far.
Next time I get a furnace I'll call up the same pro and pay for a
service call just to pick his brain on this type of thing before I
make my decision.
Problem is, as somebody else said, models are always changing, and
some reliable models get discontinued.
Almost like buying a first year model car - you don't know what bad
was engineered into it.
Then, if you talk to a pro repairman who also does installs you have
to be wary of his prejudices. It's human nature.
Anyway, I wager you won't try to do the modifications I've mentioned
when you replace that old furnace.
I'm a gambling man (-:
Wouldn't mind being wrong on that bet though if you come back and tell
us how you did it.
--Vic
Home Guy
> And that warranty goes down the drain, 10 yr extended and lifetime
> heat exchanger you loose.
No.
Anyone who buys a new furnace and ends up needing to rely on any sort of
corrosion warranty will lose.
Because as past history has shown, you need to launch a class-action law
suit in order to ever get compensation.
> With thinner heat exchangers and electronics, odds are you just
> lost your savings.
If you think at the outset that you're buying a piece-of-shit furnace
that's going to break down on you like that, then it doesn't matter
whether or not you've modded the furnace. You shouldn't be buying a
piece-of-shit furnace in the first place.
mm
>On Dec 4, 2:38 am, mm <NOPSAMmm2...@bigfoot.com> wrote:
>> On Fri, 03 Dec 2010 20:37:36 -0500, Home Guy <H...@Guy.com> wrote:
>> >Peter wrote:
>>
>> >> The bottom line as someone else wrote is to find and use a well
>> >> qualified and honest HVAC contractor.
>>
>> >Can someone explain why you need a contractor to install a furnace?
>>
>> >If you're a real red-blooded, meat-eating man who knows how to swing a
>>
>> Hey, that's me!
>>
>> >hammer, turn a wrench and wire a branch circuit, then you most certainly
>> >can connect a few wires and bend some sheet metal and get a furnace
>> >installed, and most of the A/C as well (assuming you need a new A/C
>> >unit).
>>
>> I hope you're right, because that's my current plan. I'm out of work
>> again, except for a little bit on a maintenance project, and I have
>> more time than money. Plus if I actually have heat and AC when I'm
>> done, it will be very satisfying. (I'm going to hire someone to
>> remove the current freon, and come back later and adjust the furnace,
>> and connect and top off the AC.)
>
>
>I do a lot of my own projects, but installing a furnace/AC is not one
>I'd tackle.
>IMO, there are just two many issues. Examples would be correctly
>sizing
>the new furnace.
The four guys who came out to give estimates all just assumed I should
use the same size I have now. 80,000 BTU and 2.5 ton AC, for 1400 sq.
ft. (and a 700 below grad basement) Both of which are big enough, and
neither too big afaict.
One guy said, "I guess you dont' want to run new ducts" and I agreed,
and he said, "Well then we can skip [something or other]." The others
just ignored it. I have 108 neighbors with identical houses, and I've
seen the new installation one got this past summer, and it looks just
like it used to, but new and shiny. The size of the furnace wasn't
apparent, but based on what you say, I think I should/can look at the
AC label. I'm trying to look at some more new furnaces.
> I guess you could run the load calcualtions and you
>do
>have the experience with the current unit to go on. But I still
>think that could
>be an area where years of expertise could come in handy. For
>example, my
>current unit is 150K BTU input. I don't even know how that relates
>to the current
>specs of units. From looking, it seems most are a lot smaller than
>that.
The input would be smaller because they are more efficient. But
shouldn't the output be the same as it was? The quotient is the
efficiency.
> Given
>that it's 26 years old, my guess would be that I can easily get away
>with a much
>smaller new one. But exactly how much smaller, I'd prefer to get a
>pro to tell me.
Well, you have a full-time job, so you don't have more time than
money, so if you're going to have it installed, they should do the
up-front work too, like sizing. But the four guys I had, say 3, not
counting the guy who never got back to me, didn't do anything. I'll
admit, I forgot to ask them to do a load calculation, or whatever, and
that was when I was seriously planning to hire one of them. Now that
I'm tending the other way, I don't want to call anyone else and soak
up his time.
>Then as you pointed out, you have the issue of removing the freon,
>charging the new
>system, etc. I guess if you know someone that will do it, that could
>be dealt with.
The guys, father and son, who were doing the house next door said they
would. Before I talked about hiring them directly, they pointed to 3
houses in eye-sight that they had done here, working for an oil
company. One of them my friend's whose new furnace I had checked out.
We didn't talk price yet. My friend had talked to Sears, I think,
and they said oil furnaces were not so common and the best way was to
go through an oil supply company, because they had guys who did mostly
oil.
>But I wouldn't know who to call around here that would even consider
>getting involved.
>
>Then, what about the warranty? If you install it yourself, isn't the
>warranty likely voided?
Probably. That's a problem. Mostly, I'm assuming since the current
one lasted 31 years, that this one won't fail before the warranty is
out anyhow, but that's foolish if it does fail. I'm also assuming if
I don't drop it hard while taking it down the steps, it won't fail and
if I do drop it, it's my fault. So "Don't drop it."
Depending on how much the guys I hire do, he may be be willing to sign
off on it. That assumes he himself has a license, but he should. The
father and son were the only ones doing the install next door.
>
>I'd also look at the specific reqts for the tax credit, ie what
>documentation, etc is required.
>That might preclude self-install.
Yes, it does iirc. But because I made so little money and will pay
so little taxes, most of the credit isn't available to me anyhow.
>You're also aware that the tax credit requires it to be installed by
>the end of this year, right?
Yes. Thanks.
>Doing a self-install, I guess one advantage might be that you could
>fudge it a bit.
I have the form. I didn't check if you have to copy the receipt, but
maybe. I thought of prepaying, even if the installation was
afterwards. Taht's bad if they guys drop dead or something, and if I
pay for the furnace in advance, that means having to store it until
spring and moving it from my mini-storage locker to my house. Another
imposition on my friend with a truck. I have a 4'x 8' trailer which
is rated 1000 pounds, and this is 200 pounds (or 300?) but the trailer
still seems flimsy for this.
>>
>> I'm hoping the hardest part will be getting the furnace down the
>> stairs! That will be hard, and I'll get a helper to do that, and
>> maybe ask advice here about a ramp or how to go one step at a time.
>> (It's a U shaped stairs, with two 90 degree turns on one landing.)
>
>I don;t know, but I think you may be surprised how easy it is. IMO,
>the
>new one is likely to weigh substantially less than the old one. The
I have a hard time appreciating how much 200 pounds are. I may have
moved that much before, with a helper, but didn't know how much I
moved weighed. Last year another guy and I moved a refrigerator up
from a basement.
>downside
>to that is that from everything I've seen here, the new ones aren't
>likely to
>last the 26 years that the old one did.
Hmmmm. I'm 63 and there's a chance I'll still be in this house when
I'm 87. I doubt I'll be able to do it myself then... so I have to
save money now, to have enough money then. :)
>
>>
>>
>>
>> >If I could wind back the clock and play a role in installing my furnace
>> >and AC, I'd install a bypass duct so that my furnace fan doesn't have to
>> >blow air through the AC coils in the winter.
>>
>> Is that really so bad? Everyone does it that way, don't they? If I
>> had it to do over, I would cut out a big hole for cleaning the thing,
>> and make a sheet metal cover. Right now, I have no idea how dirty it
>> is after 31 years.
>
>
>First thing you'd have to do is figure out if it actually saves you
>enough
>energy costs in terms of reducing the air resistance or if it even
>saves
>any money at all. You're substituting at least one, if not two 90deg
>turns
>for the coils. I'd love to see any data that shows it's worth it.
Well, it was his idea, and conditioned on his doing it himself. So we
may never know. I'm not in the mood to do anymore duct-making than
necessary. Plus I'd never remember to move the plate out of the way
in the summer and back in in the winter. I already forget to change
the filter as soon as I should.
>
>
>> >If I *had* to buy a new furnace - then I'd buy a new furnace, gut the
>> >shit out of it (rip out the electronics, ECM motor and ignitor) and
>>
>> What's wrong with a) the electronics, b) the ECM motor, and c) the
>> ignitor^^. Seriously. My oil furnace will have a and maybe b, so
>> I'm interested. Don't they make things work more smoothly?
>>
>> ^^Okay, I know what's wrong with the ignitor, but you must have some
>> experience if you think you can put in a pilot, especially on a
>> furnace designed for an ignitor. More than the average red-blooded
>> meat-eating man.
>>
>> >install conventional AC motor and standing pilot light, then I'd install
>> >the thing myself.
>>
>> Isn't it easier to install the way they sell it? IF those extra parts
>> are unreliable, when they actually break, you can put in the simple
>> replacements then.
>
>Home Guy is the poster I was referring to in my original post when I
>said I know what one guy will tell me.
LOL
> Which is to just keep running the 26
>year old system, because it's the smart thing to do. He thinks the
>new
>systems have too much complexity, so they are more failure prone, cost
>more to repair, etc. He has a point. But given the current tax
>credit,
>utility rebates, energy costs, etc, it's hard to imagine how we won't
>come
>out ahead. You'd think that if he were rational, he's at least use a
>new
>system as it was made and wait for it to fail, then find out how much
>the
>part costs before ripping it apart and rebuilding it.
Yes. Who knows? Maybe when it comes down to it, that's what he will
do. A short story. The ignition on my furnace used to trip off and
require pressing a button for reset. Maybe 5 times a year for 2, 3,
or 4 years. I don't know why. It would run for a month after I
pressed the reset button, which pushed something in a latching relay
that reset it. Then the relay wouldn't reset. (Today it would be
transistorized, I assume). I took the cover off the 1" relay and
tried to find the problem or clean it or point-file the relay
contacts, but probably I coudln't get in there to do that. No luck.
I tried to buy a replacement latching relay, but couldn't, even in
some big catalogs, like Mouser (the whole control panel was 140
dollars 10 years earlier, so more now.) I thought about getting an
almost-replacement relay that wouldn't fit the circuit board, but
could hang from wires attached to the circuit board, but temporarilly,
I put it back together again, and then it reset fine! Except it never
trips anymore anyhow. That was 10 years ago and it hasnt' tripped in
7, 9, maybe 10 years. I'm amazed.
But during this time, I kept my eyes open and when a neighbor got a
new furnace, I asked them and then saved their old burner, including
the control panel (for when mine breaks), pump, transformer, etc.. It
takes up a lot of space, a cardobard carton, a cube 30 inches on each
side. If I get a new furnace, I can get rid of it.
> Since he's so
>concerned
>about maintenance cost, I wonder what ripping it apart does to the
>warranty?
>
>:)
;-)
>
>
>
>>
>> I found a "book" online for 10 dollars on how to install a furnace.
>> Only 50 pages**, but it spends a good portion of its space on how to
>> do ductwork at the furnace, which is what I know the least about. But
>> be warned. He didn't send the download code that night, or after my
>> first two complaint emails, until after 4 weeks I complained to
>> PayPal. Then they sent me the code the same day. I was seriously
>> suspecting there was no book at all. But it doesn't deal at all with
>> installing even the N-coil, or the AC, or a humidifier. I guess I can
Another strange thing about the book. He only spends a couple
sentences on it, but he's firm that one should install new wires to
the thermostat! That's ridiculous in general -- my wires are like
new, and they're certainly not going to short or open. And in my
house I think snaking the wire would be a lot of trouble. He also
recommended the bricks under the furnace. The previous thread where I
asked about that was written at a friend's house on his computer, so
it doesn't use my name.
>> figure all that stuff out, but for a newbie like me, I would like
>> help. As it is, I'll have to wait to spring, because I'm afraid
>> some roadblock will take me a week, or a month, or two months, and I
>> can't be without heat that long. I wish I'd started 10 months ago,
>> but the AC compressor didnt' start tripping the breaker until June.
>>
>> **There is also a similar book on Amazon, twice the price and half the
>> length. Maybe if the print is quite small it has more info, but 25
>> pages for 20 or so dollars doesn't seem like a good bet to me.
>>
>> The book I got said the hardest part is getting someone to sell you
>> the furnace!
>
>Let us know how the install goes for you. From some of the botched
>up
>jobs I've seen, you do have one edge over at least some of the pros.
>You >obviously care about doing it right.
Yes, I almost always get things right the first time I do something.
It's the third time when I screw up.
There are 8 things to connect.
The AC. Easy.
The thermostat. Easy
The oil line. Easy if I can just use what I have. Pretty easy if I
have to bend the tubing too much to get the new furnace in, and have
to put in a union to make the shortened tubing longer.
The flue. My neighbor's is done just like it was, and could have used
the same pipes, but I'll probably get new too. It's just 4 pieces
until it goes out of sight behind the furnace. 2 or 3 more pieces
to the chimney. So, pretty easy. Getting the parts is the hard
part.
The input duct.
The output duct. He spends a bunch of space on how to do this. I
realize now that there are no left-hand or right-hand furnaces. I
have to cut the big hole for the return air duct. No big deal to
cut the hole. Have to see how my duct is currently connected.
The control wires to the compressor outside. Easy
The freon pipes. I'll pay to have that done. The AC comes
pre-charged, so I won't have to buy much freon, if any. I should
get that part of the price settled in advance. The same
guy, or guys, will adjust the combustion.
Stormin Mormon
98 and you "don't want this thread to seriously derail". Might I
suggest that point has long since passed?
--
Christopher A. Young
Learn more about Jesus
www.lds.org
.
"Home Guy" <Ho...@Guy.com>
wrote in message news:4CFA78F8...@Guy.com...
tra...@optonline.net
> trad...@optonline.net wrote:
> > Last time I checked, video drivers are considered part of and ship
> > with the OS, at least today.
>
> Hardware drivers (video, chipset, etc) are written by the manufacturers
> of those components. They are made available to Microsoft for
> incorporation into the distribution CD's that Windows comes on.
After certification and approval by Microsoft to ensure that they work
with
the OS. Ifa the drivers for the common video chips included in WinXP,
7, etc
doesn't work, won't install, etc, you call Microsoft. With Win98 you
have
old drivers and God knows who you call today. I doubt anyone is
writing
Win98 drivers for new hardware today.
>
> Drivers are updated all the time, especially for video cards, and the
> best drivers for most things are almost always obtained from the
> manufacturer's website, not from the Windows installation CD.
And most people, like me, are using the standard ones. I have a four
monitor Appian graphics card running on XP. Not even your typical
video card. The standared XP install recognized it, installed the
driver
and it works perfectly.
>
> Now if you're talking laptops or netbooks, that's a slightly different
> story, as those hardware components are custom-integrated into the final
> product and there may never be driver updates created for those hardware
> components.
There isn't anything special about notebook computers. The hardware
components
that drive the I/O, eg video/graphics chips are integrated into chips
on the motherboard. The
exact same thing is done with the computers you buy at any of the
desktop
manufacturers. They usually have basic video/graphics integrated on
the motherboard
because most of the chipsets sold by Intel, AMD have those built-in
and it gives them
a cost effective way of offering video/graphics. If you want to, you
can choose to disable
those and use an add-in card for higher performance. Same thing
with disk. The disk interface has
been part of the desktop motherboard for a decade, because it too is
intergrated into those
chipsets, just like for notebooks.
>When it comes to desktop PC's, unless you have a "boutique"
> computer (HP, Compaq, Dell) then most likely there are better versions
> of various hardware drivers available on the net vs the ones that
> shipped with the computer originally or that come on the Windows CD.
You're stuck in Win98 world. Today those common, mainstream PCs come
with drivers that are perfectly fine, stable and only a small minority
of people
are seeking out drivers different than what comes with the PC. That
mode
exists primarily with geeks and gamers, who want to screw around with
things
and try to get some better performance. I don;t know who would
consider HP
or Dell a boutique company. I can get a mid-range PC with 6GB RAM,
650MB
disk, Win 7, MSFT Office, Norton Internet Security, etc from HP for
$425 including
shipping. What makes that "boutique". BTW, Compaq hasn't existed
for years.
It was bought by HP.
>
> Windows 98 was plagued by buggy AGP video card drivers and even the AGP
> bus itself was still being improved (from an electrical / signalling
> POV) back during the time when win-98 was introduced and used (1998 -
> 2002). Video cards and drivers were significantly better and more
> reliable in 2002 than they were in 1998.
Uh huh. And those better drivers are shipped by Microsoft as part of
XP and later
OS's. Consequently, those OS's are more likely to install and work
without blue
screens of death. I think most people would say that makes XP a
better OS.
>
> > The video drivers I'm using on the PC I'm writing this on were
> > shipped as part of Windows XP. Upon installation, the OS
> > installer detects the hardware and installs the appropriate
> > driver. That's one of the benefits of XP and more modern OS's.
>
> Windows 98 was no different. The win-98 CD comes with hundreds of
> drivers for all sorts of hardware devices from dozens of manufacturers,
> and hundreds if not thousands more win-98 drivers are available on the
> web for new devices that didn't exist back in 1998/1999.
Win98 was different. You just said:
"Windows 98 was plagued by buggy AGP video card drivers " Today Win7
ship with drivers that are stable and not buggy.
>
> It was only during 2006 that drivers for new hardware products stopped
> being written for windows 98.
>
> > As for the quality of computers in 2000, it's rather strange that
> > if hardware were the problem, those same computers did not crash
> > when running NT.
>
> NT did crash. But more to the point - NT systems were usually given the
> luxury of more installed RAM. Any OS becomes unstable when given a
> small amount of memory, and Win-98 systems at the time were severely
> handicapped because they usually had a pathetic 8 to 32 mb of installed
> RAM.
>
> Another thing is that when a program crashes under NT, it doesn't take
> the OS with it. But Win-9x doesn't have the same separation of OS and
> App memory space, so a badly behaving program can crash a win-9x
> computer. You might think this is a good thing, but it's largely
> irrelavent, because you probably won't be running a badly-behaved App
> for very long regardless what OS you use.
Oh my God. You can't seriously belive this. WinXP and subsequent
OSs
took full advantage of the hardware protection built into the Intel
architecture. There
is physical hardware present specifically to prevent one app from
crashing another
ap or the OS. For example, using that hardware, the OS limits the
memory space
application A can reach. It can try to do a direct memory write to
another memory
region, eg one used by the OS, and the HARDWARE blocks it and triggers
an
exception. It's precisely those kinds of improvements that are in XP
and later
OS's that make them stable. Win98 was a kludge from the days of the
original
8088 based PC, with the OS being a legacy 16 bit implentation with
some 32 bit
capability added on. Consequently it made minimal use of the features
of the hardware
that provided memory management and protection. With XP, the home had
a true 32 bit
OS that fitted perfectly with the memory management and protection
hardware of the
Intel architecture.
With Win98 I regularly had one bad behaving app lock up the whole
system. With
XP and later, that's been reduced dramatically. It still does happen
once in a while.
I think most people share that experience.
>
> > XP was the emperor with no clothes. It was a disaster for
> > the first 4 years of it's life.
>
> > Strange because I used it on several PCs from the time of
> > it's first release and I experienced no such disasters.
>
> XP was extremely well known as being easily exploitable back during 2002
> through 2004, and slightly less exploitable in 2005 - 2006. Ask anyone
> who was in IT during those years.
And Win98 besides being an unstable piece of crap, had all those
security
vulnerabilities and more. Just because more viruses and malware have
evolved
over time doesn't mean that earlier OS's were better. Following that
logic, we
should all still be using MS-DOS because the original IBM PC had no
viruses,
at least for a while.
>
> > It was an immediate improvement.
>
> You noticed an improvement because XP most likely came installed on a
> new computer, and the specs of that new computer were likely much better
> than the specs of of the win-98 computer that it replaced.
Wrong. You can take Win98 and run it on a brand new computer today and
it
would have the same problems because it's a kludge 16bit/32 bit
patched together
OS. But that ain;t very likely to happen, because no one is writing
drivers for it
today. You want to stay stuck in time 5+ years ago forever?
>
> The years 1998 through 2003 saw a drastic improvement in the capability,
> performance, stability and reliability of computer hardware
> (motherboard, hard drives, video cards, RAM). You can't compare win-98
> with XP without taking that into account.
Been, there, done that. What I've seen is a constant improvement
over time in
both hardware and software. One of those was kissing Win98 goodbye.
Hopefully that's because that system is not connected to the internet.
More likely it's because no security software is available to offer
real-
time protection for Win98.
>
> The main AV product that I used on my home and company PC's is/was
> Norton AntiVirus 2002 (and note: NAV did not become bloatware until
> version 2003 and later). NAV 2002 can still be updated with current
> virus scan engine and definition files using Symantec's "intellgent
> updater" package - but Symantec doesn't want you to know that.
>
> But I mostly don't bother to update the definitions on the 15 or so
> win-98 computers that I own or manage because they quite simply have
> never gotten exposed to any malware in the past 7 or so years.
That must mean that you don;t have it connected to the internet,
otherwise
they would clearly be exposed. But being an antique, there are less
viruses to worry
about because just like with apps, no one is writing new ones. But
I'd bet someone
is occasionally recirculating old ones.
>
> And it's funny when I'm surfing a website and I get the fake-AV popup
> that wants me to download some software (which I do just to sample it
> and send it to virustotal.com) or maybe some rogue web-page will trigger
> my browser to download a malicious pdf file which will cause Acrobat
> Reader 6 to start up - and display a harmless error message - because
> acrobat reader 6 is not vulnerable to any of the various pdf exploits
> that have been discovered in the past few years.
I'm sure trying to use Win98 on the web today you get all sorts of
error messages.
>
> Every once in a while I'll take the hard drive from my win-98 systems
> and slave them to an isolated XP system running several different AV
> software and scan the drives for malware. NONE is ever found.
That's a real convenient process and finds them only after they've
infected the
system.
>
> From an IT management point of view, it has been an absolute pleasure to
> own and operate about a dozen windows-98 systems in a corporate / small
> business environment for the past 10 years. From payroll to accounting
> to production to manufacturing to networking, win-98 works well in those
> rolls with the software we have, and I spend zero time having to worry
> or deal with security or malware from the internet. It's also been a
> very cost-effective solution not "upgrading" to what-ever Microsoft says
> is the required OS to use. Anyone dancing to Microsoft's tune is indeed
> a fool.
Yeah, like I said, that evil corporation called Microsoft has really
scammed me.
They got maybe $50 from me in 2001 when I bought a PC with XP. And
recently
they got a similar amount or maybe $75when I bought a new PC that has
Win 7
and Microsoft Office on it. During that decade I got free updates.
They really
took advantage of me. All those developers that stopped writing
anything for
Win98 6 or more years ago must be fools too.
Clearly you're one of the Microsoft hating loons, so biased you can't
see the forest
for the trees.
.
ransley
> I've decided to take my own advice and look in to getting a new
> natural gas furnace and AC unit installed before the $1500 tax credit
> runs out at the end of the year. Not much time left, I know. To get
> the credit, it has to be at least 13 EER, and 16 SEER. My old
> system is a 26 year old RUUD and I figure between the tax credit and
> higher efficiency saving energy costs, it's time to do it.
>
> Anyone have any recommendations as to brands/models that they have had
> good results with or those to avoid? Any particular features? I'm
> thinking it's going to be worth it to get a high enough efficiency
> system to meet the $1500 tax credit, but probably don't need anything
> more than that. Any features you've found useful on newer systems and
> would recommend? Things like variable speed blowers, dual stage,
> etc? But honestly, the current one is fine in terms of comfort,
> can't complain about drafts, etc. The house is 3200 sq ft, current
> furnace is 150K BTU input, 4.5 ton AC. Location is coastal NJ, with
> high gas and electricity rates.
>
> I know what one guy here will say, ie just keep running the old
> one.....
I didnt know furnaces ran windows. Consumer Reports mag did a poll of
about 22000 people years ago, the top results were suprising, you do
have CR mag online, right. If I was looking for one it would be
stainless steel heat exchanger not treated steel. If you over heat
them ive heard they fail fast. Checking the temp just above the
exchanger is something you should have set up and do. If it gets humid
inside when temps are mild, to mild for normal AC, a Vsdc blower will
do alot by running real slow and cycling the Ac only for humidity
removal, if its set up right. Vsdc should also save you 15-30% on
electric usage overall. The first generation untis failed within 6-10
years, ive heard but they redisigned the electronics so maybe they
last now, you still need the longest warranty if you go with the fancy
stuff. 10yrs is common and maybe 15yr warrantys are done now. 2 stage
or modulating gas valves allow more even heat. With a high efficiency
condensing unit you automaticly cut the size of overall btus needed by
10 to maybe even 15%. If you dont run it 24 hrs a day on the coldest
days you might cut its size more. But if you do the setback or
vacation alot recovery is harder. You could Diy it , save money, have
no warranty and maybe be covered on savings. I think vsdc motor is
600, but im guessing on all numbers.
tra...@optonline.net
<cayoung61**spambloc...@hotmail.com> wrote:
> The subject line says "new gas furnace". You're writing about Windows
> 98 and you "don't want this thread to seriously derail". Might I
> suggest that point has long since passed?
>
> --
> Christopher A. Young
> Learn more about Jesus
> www.lds.org
> .
>
> wrote in messagenews:4CFA78F8...@Guy.com...
>
> trad...@optonline.net wrote:
>
> Ok, I don't want this thread to seriously derail at this point, so I
> will simply say that there are reasons why people perceived win-98 to
> be
> seriously flawed that had more to do with the quality of computers and
Excuse me, but you've obviously got me confused with HomeGuy. He's
the
guy that started the Win98 crap that got the thread off track and made
the
above quoted statement. Perhaps you remember him as the profanity
spewing
poster you previously engaged with.
tra...@optonline.net
> On Dec 3, 1:46 pm, trad...@optonline.net wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
> > I've decided to take my own advice and look in to getting a new
> > natural gas furnace and AC unit installed before the $1500 tax credit
> > runs out at the end of the year. Not much time left, I know. To get
> > the credit, it has to be at least 13 EER, and 16 SEER. My old
> > system is a 26 year old RUUD and I figure between the tax credit and
> > higher efficiency saving energy costs, it's time to do it.
>
> > Anyone have any recommendations as to brands/models that they have had
> > good results with or those to avoid? Any particular features? I'm
> > thinking it's going to be worth it to get a high enough efficiency
> > system to meet the $1500 tax credit, but probably don't need anything
> > more than that. Any features you've found useful on newer systems and
> > would recommend? Things like variable speed blowers, dual stage,
> > etc? But honestly, the current one is fine in terms of comfort,
> > can't complain about drafts, etc. The house is 3200 sq ft, current
> > furnace is 150K BTU input, 4.5 ton AC. Location is coastal NJ, with
> > high gas and electricity rates.
>
> > I know what one guy here will say, ie just keep running the old
> > one.....
>
> I didnt know furnaces ran windows. Consumer Reports mag did a poll of
> about 22000 people years ago, the top results were suprising, you do
> have CR mag online, right.
I checked there already. They said the problem reports were about the
same
for all the manufacturers and didn't rate one better than the other.
They gave
some average price of a furnace information for the manufacturers.
But I'm
not sure what that even means. Does it mean that the price for a
similar
furnace from each company? Or does it mean that it's the average
price of
the systems each company sells? If it's the latter, it's useless,
because
company A could offer more high-end systems and have a higher average
price, while actually being cheaper on the particular system type I
want.
Thanks again for the help in the past on that CR stuff. I finally
got a subscription.
>If I was looking for one it would be
> stainless steel heat exchanger not treated steel. If you over heat
> them ive heard they fail fast. Checking the temp just above the
> exchanger is something you should have set up and do. If it gets humid
> inside when temps are mild, to mild for normal AC, a Vsdc blower will
> do alot by running real slow and cycling the Ac only for humidity
> removal, if its set up right. Vsdc should also save you 15-30% on
> electric usage overall. The first generation untis failed within 6-10
> years, ive heard but they redisigned the electronics so maybe they
> last now, you still need the longest warranty if you go with the fancy
> stuff. 10yrs is common and maybe 15yr warrantys are done now. 2 stage
> or modulating gas valves allow more even heat. With a high efficiency
> condensing unit you automaticly cut the size of overall btus needed by
> 10 to maybe even 15%. If you dont run it 24 hrs a day on the coldest
> days you might cut its size more. But if you do the setback or
> vacation alot recovery is harder.
I was thinking about that. With the current furnace, with an outside
temp of'
about 28F, it raises the temp from 60 to 70 at about 5F per hour.
Current
26 year old furnace is 150K input. So, I'm thinking with 93% or so
efficiency
new one, 100K should be about the same. It's not close to running
constantly
on the coldest days here in coastal NJ, which would be about 8F. But
any smaller and it cuts
back the ability to set it back at night. Right now it's set to go
to 60 at 11PM,
back to 67 at 5:30AM
I also take maybe 7 trips in the winter where I set it back to 50 and
from the above,
you can tell it takes several hours to get back to a reasonable
temperature.
I've though about getting an thermostat that I could control via the
internet
to set it back up when I'm on the way back.
Would you think it a good idea to go with a smaller one if it means
less ability
to set it back, even on a daily basis?
As far as the VSDC, etc., I'm going to see what the contractors have
in the systems
that meet the credit reqts as well as those just below it. I'm
thinking I'll probably wind
up essentially getting a better furnace for free when you factor in
the credit.
Home Guy
> I didnt know furnaces ran windows.
Don't joke. Next year they'll be running linux or android.
> Consumer Reports mag did a poll of about 22000 people years ago
> the top results were suprising
So post them here.
> If I was looking for one it would be stainless steel heat exchanger
> not treated steel.
Yes. Stainless for both the primary and secondary exchangers. Take a
magnet with you to the hvac dealer's show room and test the units they
have on display.
> Vsdc should also save you 15-30% on electric usage overall.
> The first generation untis failed within 6-10 years, ive heard
> but they redisigned the electronics so maybe they last now
Correct term for vsdc motors is ECM. ECM motors are a crock of shit.
Best you'll save is 100 watts compared to 1/4 hp AC motor, and less if
you have 2-speed AC motor. Saving 100 watts at 10 cents/kwh is about
$100 (that's 100 watts continuously for an entire year). Now subtract
the electricity used by the furnace motherboard, and various other
blowers and condensate pump. The extra 100 watts used by AC motors are
dumped into the house as heat - which is what you need in the winter
(and spring and fall depending where you live) so it's not all wasted
energy.
Lifespan of ECM motor is 1/2 to 1/4 that of AC motor, and it's 4 to 8
times more expensive (upfront cost of furnace is higher, repair costs
higher). ECM motors create EM/RFI on your household wiring, can
interfere with tv and radio reception.
Now tell me how you're saving with an ECM motor.
So where are we?
1) Adding second stage heat exchanger to conventional (70 - 80%)
furnaces from 30 years ago gives us condensing furnace (95% give or
take) - which is good. I do like that improvement.
2) Using cheap steel for heat exchangers compared to furnaces from 30
years ago is bad. Using stainless is good.
3) Using electronic ignition is bad comprimize from cost/savings point
of view compared to standing pilot light. No real need to use
electronic ignition in modern condensing furnace.
4) Using ECM motors is also bad comprimize compared to 1/4 or 1/3 hp AC
squirrel cage motor. *Actual* or *Net* energy savings don't justify
extra cost and reduced longevity.
As a consumer, give me the choice of electronic ignition or conventional
pilot. Give me the choice of ECM vs standard AC motor. Give me the
choice of mechanical thermostat (in the furnace) to control gas valve
and fan motor instead of electronic motherboard. Give me all stainless
for the exchangers. If you don't give me ALL those choices, then I say
that modern furnaces and the entire industry is a crock of shit.
Beyond the furnace itself, it's time to start ducting winter heat around
the AC coils instead of going through them. You want efficiency? It's
not efficient to blow air through coils when you don't need to do it
during the winter.
It's also time to allow for spring/fall cooling by having ducting and
gating that allows the furnace to pull return air from the outside,
force it into the house, and gate the interior return air back to the
outside. When ever you want the house cooler, and the outside air is
cooler than the inside air, then why use your AC when you can draw
outside air into the house directly?
Steve
"Home Guy" <Ho...@Guy.com> wrote in message news:4CFBC71A...@Guy.com...
> ransley wrote:
>
>> I didnt know furnaces ran windows.
>
> Don't joke. Next year they'll be running linux or android.
The new high end systems are serial control with variable frequency inverter
drives that will vary their output from 40% - 115% of their rated capacity.
>> Consumer Reports mag did a poll of about 22000 people years ago
>> the top results were suprising
>
> So post them here.
>> If I was looking for one it would be stainless steel heat exchanger
>> not treated steel.
Look for tubular primary heat exchanger, not "clam shell".
> Yes. Stainless for both the primary and secondary exchangers. Take a
> magnet with you to the hvac dealer's show room and test the units they
> have on display.
If the furnace is correctly sized, properly installed and adjusted,
aluminized steel or stainless.... either will give you a good service life.
>> Vsdc should also save you 15-30% on electric usage overall.
>> The first generation untis failed within 6-10 years, ive heard
>> but they redisigned the electronics so maybe they last now
90% of those failures were due to incorrectly designed and sized ductwork
that caused extreme static pressures.
> Correct term for vsdc motors is ECM. ECM motors are a crock of shit.
> Best you'll save is 100 watts compared to 1/4 hp AC motor, and less if
> you have 2-speed AC motor. Saving 100 watts at 10 cents/kwh is about
> $100 (that's 100 watts continuously for an entire year). Now subtract
> the electricity used by the furnace motherboard, and various other
> blowers and condensate pump. The extra 100 watts used by AC motors are
> dumped into the house as heat - which is what you need in the winter
> (and spring and fall depending where you live) so it's not all wasted
> energy.
you need to do some more homework here.
> Lifespan of ECM motor is 1/2 to 1/4 that of AC motor, and it's 4 to 8
> times more expensive (upfront cost of furnace is higher, repair costs
> higher). ECM motors create EM/RFI on your household wiring, can
> interfere with tv and radio reception.
ECM motors have the same or greater lifespan, use half the energy to run and
are a whole lot quieter than PSC motors. Only the cheapest manufactures with
the cheapest models of furnaces have issues with RFI. yes you will get what
you pay for.
> Now tell me how you're saving with an ECM motor.
The average system that I install uses 30% - 40% less energy to run.
> So where are we?
Talking about how you need to go back to school, and get up to speed with
the new systems.
> 1) Adding second stage heat exchanger to conventional (70 - 80%)
> furnaces from 30 years ago gives us condensing furnace (95% give or
> take) - which is good. I do like that improvement.
90+ furnaces VS 80+ furnaces will largely depend on location, climate, and
degree days. Here in south Mississippi, the additional cost of a 90+ furnace
is not justified, where in the northern states where they have 9 months of
winter sports is a different story.
> 2) Using cheap steel for heat exchangers compared to furnaces from 30
> years ago is bad. Using stainless is good.
Stainless is good, but also much more expensive. Will the additional cost be
worth it in your location?
Keep in mind that heating and cooling systems are not built to last forever.
> 3) Using electronic ignition is bad comprimize from cost/savings point
> of view compared to standing pilot light. No real need to use
> electronic ignition in modern condensing furnace.
Please explain how this is so?? or do you advocate removing half of the
safety devices on the furnace in favor of a standing pilot?? I don't know of
*ANY* legitmate HVAC tech that would purposly want to remove safeties from
any gas appliance.
> 4) Using ECM motors is also bad comprimize compared to 1/4 or 1/3 hp AC
> squirrel cage motor. *Actual* or *Net* energy savings don't justify
> extra cost and reduced longevity.
Please explain how you come up with this.
BTW, I installed a new 3ton, 15SEER heat pump system for a customer 2 weeks
ago, he has the ability to monitor his *ACTUAL* energy usage. The new system
uses 1500 watts less energy to run it than the old system did.
Last January I installed a new 4 ton 14SEER dual fuel/hybrid system in my
own home and it reduced my energy usage by 42% over this last year. BOTH
systems have ECM blower motors, as well as ECM condenser fan motors.
> As a consumer, give me the choice of electronic ignition or conventional
> pilot. Give me the choice of ECM vs standard AC motor. Give me the
> choice of mechanical thermostat (in the furnace) to control gas valve
> and fan motor instead of electronic motherboard. Give me all stainless
> for the exchangers. If you don't give me ALL those choices, then I say
> that modern furnaces and the entire industry is a crock of shit.
So you want to go back in time and have your energy bills doubled.....
Technology is a good thing when the contractor/installer/tech has the
training, education, and experience. to me it sounds like your not happy
because its no longer a DIY proposition, and you can't make it work
correctly. in case you haven't noticed, *EVERYTHING* has electronics in it
these days. The electronics make things safer, and more energy efficient.
FWIW, a good quality digital control can reduce your energy bills 10% - 15%
by itself, as well as increase your comfort levels by not having the 5 - 7
degree temperature swings that a mechanical thermostat will give you.
> Beyond the furnace itself, it's time to start ducting winter heat around
> the AC coils instead of going through them. You want efficiency? It's
> not efficient to blow air through coils when you don't need to do it
> during the winter.
You can't be serious
> It's also time to allow for spring/fall cooling by having ducting and
> gating that allows the furnace to pull return air from the outside,
> force it into the house, and gate the interior return air back to the
> outside. When ever you want the house cooler, and the outside air is
> cooler than the inside air, then why use your AC when you can draw
> outside air into the house directly?
The A/C does *MORE* than just cool the air... but I just don't have the time
or the inclination to explain it all to you. Its pretty obvious that your
not a tech by any stretch of the imagination.
To the OP... I would highly recommend that you call your local *COMPETENT*,
licensed, insured, professionally trained, HVAC technician to do a complete
assesment of your home to see what it actually needs, and recomendations for
a top quality installation of a top quality system that is best suited for
your home in your particular climate.
--
Steve @ Noon-Air Heating & A/C
"Stop calling me for freebies Satan,
I'll fix your air conditioner when you pay me, Cheapskate!"
ransley
>
> - Show quoted text -- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -
The CR survey was notable because it stated Goodman to be less
reliable, but I guess you are not looking at Goodman.
Your 150k furnace is likely 82% and 123,000 output, a 100k 94% unit is
94,000 output so its alot less, near 30%. I wonder does it even run in
6 hrs at night on 6f cutback? a load calculation is really needed to
know what is needed, or just dont go to much smaller. The only real
need I can see for 2 stage or modulating gas valves is if you have
uneven heat and need more comfort. Just cutting my furnace size 50%
gave me more even heat but I was way oversized. Ecm-Vsdc would help
more in winter if heat is uneven but it really makes sense for AC if
alot of your climate is near 70 but humid or you need to boost AC.
With 7 trips a winter and setbacks you will be colder longer if its
alot smaller. I think the main benefit is a cheaper unit, but you
didnt say heat was uneven or bad. if your fine now maybe Condensing
and no fancy stuff is best. a bit smaller and heat will be more even.
ransley
I dont know how to cut and paste yet but its 2008 CR magazine furnace
survey
Ecm Vsdc, it can run at 100watts vs 375 for my 1/4hp, thats near 70%
saving in slow mode, maybe near 100w less at high speed.
Who in the US pays only 0.10c per Kwh, you must live near a big Dam
and get subsidised electric because im .18 and so is the rest of the
US, many place are near 0.25 kwh.
You miss the point, its comfort or else you wouldnt even have a
heating system. Vsdc can remove in low speed maybe 50% more moisture
with minimal cooling so its great in humid areas, great for homes with
uneven heat. It is about comfort, but can save the cost of the motor
in electric usage over 6-7 years. That was my figure years ago at .
125kwh.
You have to know yearly hours run in heat and AC and a real Kwh cost
to make any claim to it not paying back.
Lifespan, are you refering to the old or new redesign motor.
Electronic ignitions failing, so do thermocuples.
tra...@optonline.net
I was thinking the current 26 year old furnace is more like 60 or 65%%
efficient. Don't
you think 82% is way high? I'd expect that from a more modern
furnace, eg
the current low cost entry level systems, but not from my ancient
beast. If it's 65%,
then replacing it with a 100K, 93% one is pretty close.
>I wonder does it even run in
> 6 hrs at night on 6f cutback?
I set it back to 60 at 11PM and it definitely will run overnight if
it's cold weather, probably
from the low 20s on down.
> a load calculation is really needed to
> know what is needed, or just dont go to much smaller.
The first contractor, Carrier guy is coming tomorrow and I think he's
going to do one. But it
would seem to me that the actual experience I have with the current
one is just as useful,
maybe more so. At least for the heating part.
>The only real
> need I can see for 2 stage or modulating gas valves is if you have
> uneven heat and need more comfort. Just cutting my furnace size 50%
> gave me more even heat but I was way oversized. Ecm-Vsdc would help
> more in winter if heat is uneven but it really makes sense for AC if
> alot of your climate is near 70 but humid or you need to boost AC.
> With 7 trips a winter and setbacks you will be colder longer if its
> alot smaller. I think the main benefit is a cheaper unit, but you
> didnt say heat was uneven or bad. if your fine now maybe Condensing
> and no fancy stuff is best. a bit smaller and heat will be more even.- Hide quoted text -
>
That's about where I'm headed. The only issue I have now is that it
would be
good to have more cooling upstairs. Main issue there is the limited
duct work
originally installed. One thing I want to look into is more blower
capacity to
help with that. But I think the best solution would be a second AC
system for
upstairs. I don't think it's enough of an issue though to warrant
doing that.
So, I'm thinking get more airflow if possible, and a system that's
sufficient in rating
to meet the tax credit.
ransley
>
> - Show quoted text -
I know boilers have been 82% steady state running for over 110 years,
My 1954 Kewanee steam 1.200,000 Btu is 82% running and a 110 yr old
style or older, for boilers the reduced water supply is the main
advantage today, for steam they are now still only 82% rated. Better
controls, flue damper, electronic ignition and holding less water are
steam boilers only improvements. For furnaces with the tank style
exchanger I think those are less but if its clean, not way oversized,
not short cycling, if the burners are burning right 82% is my guess.
1984 isnt that long ago, we went through a energy mess in the mid 70s
and I was converting to flourescents as utility prices were going
up.Google a bit and see if you can find out what things really were 26
years ago. Your payback might be alot less than you think with a new
unit.
ransley
>
> - Show quoted text -
I just looked a bit, there were condensing furnaces 26 years ago. Can
you find a Btu input-output rating, use that and take off maybe 5%,
you might be near 60, or 80.
mm
wrote:
I thought furnaces were rated on BTU *output*, not input. The input
is mentioned to calculate the efficiency.
Am I right?
>
> Just curious.
>
> Jeff
Home Guy
> If the furnace is correctly sized, properly installed and
> adjusted,
How exactly do you improperly install a furnace?
If you are replacing an existing furnace, one that has been running for
years in a given house and presumably giving satisfactory service, then
how possible can you remove it and "improperly" install a new one in
it's place?
What is meant by improper? That a water line is connected to the gas
input line? That the upstairs thermostat is connected to the furnace AC
power input? That the return duct and output air plenum are connected
backwards?
> aluminized steel or stainless....
> either will give you a good service life.
How does the correct sizing of a furnace impact on whether or not the
heat exchanger lifespan is impacted by being stainless steel or regular
steel?
> 90% of those (ECM motor) failures were due to incorrectly designed
> and sized ductwork that caused extreme static pressures.
Would these be the same ductwork designed and installed by licensed
contractors?
Would these be the same ductwork that was original to the homes in
question - the same ductwork that somehow didn't manage to dammage or
burn out the motor in the previous furnace - presumably an AC motor?
I'm sorry, but if my 36 year-old AC motor didn't burn out because of the
size of my existing ductwork, then it's a crock of shit that the same
ductwork is the reason why a new ECM motor burns up.
Blame the ductwork. When you have to explain to the customer why his
new $4000 furnace is costing so much repair hassles, blame the ductwork.
> > Correct term for vsdc motors is ECM. ECM motors are a crock of
> > shit. Best you'll save is 100 watts compared to 1/4 hp AC motor,
> > and less if you have 2-speed AC motor. Saving 100 watts at 10
> > cents/kwh is about $100 (that's 100 watts continuously for an
> > entire year). Now subtract the electricity used by the furnace
> > otherboard, and various other blowers and condensate pump. The
> > extra 100 watts used by AC motors are dumped into the house as
> > heat - which is what you need in the winter (and spring and fall
> > depending where you live) so it's not all wasted energy.
>
> you need to do some more homework here.
You need to show you're a man by pointing out exactly which of my
statements above are wrong.
I'm right when I say that:
1) ECM motor uses 100 less watts when running full speed compared to 1/4
hp AC motor running at full speed.
2) The extra 100 watts used by AC motor is dumped into the house as heat
during the heating months, so it isin't exactly wasted energy from the
point of view of the home owner.
3) You can't compare the energy usage of an ECM motor running 1/4 or 1/2
speed against a single-speed AC motor. If you want to compare the costs
of multi-speed operation, then you must compare ECM with a 2-speed AC
motor, and you must correctly estimate the amount of time (total hours
per year) that the fan will be running at fractional speed.
> > Lifespan of ECM motor is 1/2 to 1/4 that of AC motor, and it's
> > 4 to 8 times more expensive (upfront cost of furnace is higher,
> > repair costs higher). ECM motors create EM/RFI on your household
> > wiring, can interfere with tv and radio reception.
>
> ECM motors have the same or greater lifespan,
Totally wrong, because you have to factor in the control or drive
electronics that's powering the motor, and when you do, you'll end up
with burned out transistors.
> use half the energy to run
The efficiency of fractional horse-power ECM motors are (at best) 60%,
while a 1/4 hp PSC AC motor will have an efficiency of 40% (if running
at full speed). 1/4 horse power is about 186 watts, so an AC motor will
use about 465 watts, while an ECM motor will use 310 watts. The
difference (about 155 watts) would use 1,357 kw hours given a
continuous 1-year run time. If the total electricity cost was 15 cents
per kw hour, then that equates to $200 per year.
Now if you consider the case of a 2-speed AC motor compared with a
2-speed (or even variable-speed ECM furnace) and if you factor in that
in a typical use-case that neither motor would or could be operating for
up to 25% of the time, then the potential savings from using an ECM
motor will almost certainly drop to closer to $100 per year.
Now if you factor in that the 155 watts of extra energy being used by
the AC motor is given back to the house as heat, then you need to
determine what that equates to in terms of cubic-feet of equivalent
natural gas and subtract the cost of that amout of natural gas from your
electricty bill to get the true additional electric cost by using an AC
motor instead of an ECM motor.
While all ECM motors are capable of infinitely variable speed and can be
implimented as such by something as cheap and easy as programming code
in the controller, furnace makers charge a fortune for anything more
than simple 2-speed operation. That is another crock of shit for this
industry.
> and are a whole lot quieter than PSC motors.
I could argue that a belt-driven fan with an AC motor with bushings is
quieter than a direct-drive ECM motor with ball bearings.
> Only the cheapest manufactures with the cheapest models of
> furnaces have issues with RFI. yes you will get what
> you pay for.
Or so you think. There's no way that a home-owner (or even consumer
reports) is going to know which units put out RFI, and which units
actually give you what you pay for. Models change all the time - too
fast for independant testing and analysis to have any effect or be
useful for the buying public.
> > Now tell me how you're saving with an ECM motor.
>
> The average system that I install uses 30% - 40% less energy to run.
Which equates to 155 watts as I calculated above.
> > So where are we?
>
> Talking about how you need to go back to school, and get up to
> speed with the new systems.
Be a man and tell me where I've said anything wrong.
> > 2) Using cheap steel for heat exchangers compared to furnaces from 30
> > years ago is bad. Using stainless is good.
>
> Stainless is good, but also much more expensive. Will the additional
> cost be worth it in your location? Keep in mind that heating and
> cooling systems are not built to last forever.
We're comparing 30 - 40 year-old furnace technology with conventional
furnaces. If furnaces cost proportionately more today in terms of % of
disposable income then I should expect no less durability or longevity
compared to the older furnaces. You seem to be an appologist for the
industry by indicating that we should pay more and expect less.
> > 3) Using electronic ignition is bad comprimize from cost/savings
> > point of view compared to standing pilot light. No real need to
> > use electronic ignition in modern condensing furnace.
>
> Please explain how this is so??
Because standing pilot lights have been used for decades and have proven
themselves to be reliable, safe, simple, and cheap.
> or do you advocate removing half of the safety devices on the
> furnace in favor of a standing pilot??
The pilot light and it's thermocouple switch have proven to be an
excellent design in terms of safety, reliability and durability for
residential furnaces. Do you disagree? Do you have the balls to
disagree?
> I don't know of *ANY* legitmate HVAC tech that would purposly want
> to remove safeties from any gas appliance.
Removing the electronic ignition and replacing it with a pilot-light and
thermocouple does not constitute "removing a safety" device. Get a grip
here.
> > 4) Using ECM motors is also bad comprimize compared to 1/4 or
> > 1/3 hp AC squirrel cage motor. *Actual* or *Net* energy savings
> > don't justify extra cost and reduced longevity.
>
> Please explain how you come up with this.
See above. Best case savings is $200 a year, typical savings will
almost certainly be less than $100 a year.
Anyone who lives in a climate zone where they expect to use their
furnace at least 5 months out of the year will realize less than $100
savings in their combined electric and gas bill just by having a furnace
with an ECM motor. Anyone who lives in a more temperate climate zone
and runs their fan more often either alone or in conjunction with their
A/C unit will come closer to the $200 in electricity savings.
> BTW, I installed a new 3ton, 15SEER heat pump system for a customer
We're talking simply about ECM motors replacing conventional PSC AC fan
motors in residential furnaces. Motors that are part of other
components (heat pumps, A/C compressors, dishwashers, clothes washers,
dryers, etc) are another matter and have different cost/benefit
arguments.
> > As a consumer, give me the choice of (...)
> So you want to go back in time and have your energy bills doubled..
The single largest decrease in my energy bill that the furnace industry
can give me compared to what I have now comes from the 2-stage
condensing heat exchanger. Better airflow design, thinner materials,
stainless, possibly better burner design, etc. All of that comes from
better thermodynamics and materials - NOT ELECTRONICS.
The addition of electronics - particularly the electronic ignition and
ECM fan motor, adds unnecessary cost and complication to the modern
furnace with no tangible benefit to the home-owner and comes with
additional medium to long-term cost of ownership costs and device
down-time caused by component failure.
> Technology is a good thing when the contractor/installer/tech
> has the training, education, and experience
Screw the contractor. I want a box that will sit there and work year
after year. It's no consolation to me that a repair tech is just a
phone call away. I'll take reliability and durability any day over
repairability. Especially when it comes with lower up-front costs (no
electronics). And in this case, I'm not even sacrificing
repairability. Low tech = high repairability.
> to me it sounds like your not happy because its no longer
> a DIY proposition, and you can't make it work correctly.
I can install myself any furnace. That's not the point. I'm just
bitching about they choices that furnace makers are making when they
design / build them.
> in case you haven't noticed, *EVERYTHING* has electronics
> in it these days. The electronics make things safer, and
> more energy efficient.
When you have electronic ignition, you HAVE TO HAVE an array of
electronic sensors to make it safe. Having those sensors and
electronics comes with a price - a hit to cost, durability, reliability.
When you have a standing pilot light with electro-mechanical
thermocouple and gas valve, you don't need sensors or electronics,
because it's inherently safe.
> FWIW, a good quality digital control can reduce your energy bills
We're not talking about the thermost here. I can have the most
advanced, computer-controlled thermostat I want upstairs to control my
35 year-old furnace, yet still have no electronics *in* my furnace.
Understand the difference?
.p.jm.@see_my_sig_for_address.com
>Steve wrote:
>
>> If the furnace is correctly sized, properly installed and
>> adjusted,
>
>How exactly do you improperly install a furnace?
>
>If you are replacing an existing furnace, one that has been running for
>years in a given house and presumably giving satisfactory service, then
>how possible can you remove it and "improperly" install a new one in
>it's place?
You're pretty much fucking clueless, huh ? Why are you
flapping your mouth on a subject you know nothing about ?
Do you use the same 'logic' when it comes to a brake job on
your car ? 'Well, I'm just replacing the braking system that was
already there with a different master cylinder, lines, calipers, and
pads that I picked out of a catalog, from a whole different design
generation and manufacturer, so there's no way to get it
wrong, because I'm not changing the rotors ' ?
>What is meant by improper? That a water line is connected to the gas
>input line? That the upstairs thermostat is connected to the furnace AC
>power input? That the return duct and output air plenum are connected
>backwards?
That an asshole like you fucked with it. And I've seen ALL of
those things done by home-moaners, and much much more /worse.
( snipped the rest of your long-winded ignorant bullshit )
--
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'Some days, it's just not worth chewing through the restraints.'
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Whenever a Liberal utters the term "Common Sense approach"....grab your
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something damned nasty to all three of them.
Pray for Obama : Psalms 109:8
Peter
Can't figure out whether you are serious or pulling our legs about
making such comprehensive and radical "modifications" to the modern high
efficiency gas furnace. I suspect that anyone following your advice
would end up with a system that (1) was substantially less efficient
than it could/should be, and (2) was unsafe to the point of probably
failing many or even most safety codes for using natural gas furnaces in
private residences.
Are you a believer in conspiracy theories that the all the manufacturers
of these furnaces got together and agreed to intentionally fill their
products with expensive, unnecessary and failure-prone components so
that they all could reap larger profits?
You would have to be. Otherwise, at least one or two of the companies
would leave out many or all the components you advise removing and
advertise that their products were equally safe, equally efficient, but
much more reliable and less expensive that their competitors that
include those components.
I don't know squat about engineering a gas furnace, but your advice just
doesn't compute with me.
Daniel who wants to know
> Steve wrote:
>
I will interject my $.02 here...
> How exactly do you improperly install a furnace?
By having too high of a TESP (total external static pressure.
>
> If you are replacing an existing furnace, one that has been running for
> years in a given house and presumably giving satisfactory service, then
> how possible can you remove it and "improperly" install a new one in
> it's place?
>
Older furnaces had a lower CFM rating, hence they have a higher temp rise
for a given output BTU rating. Newer equipment for effeciency's sake have
thinner heat exchangers (less metal thickness to push the heat through) that
can't tolerate the heat without cracking hence they have a higher CFM
rating, hence more TESP by trying to shove more CFM through the existing
ductwork.
> Would these be the same ductwork designed and installed by licensed
> contractors?
>
Sometimes, just go to the hvac-talk.com wall of shame and see all the bad
ductwork installations, many being a "ductopus" using flex duct.
> Would these be the same ductwork that was original to the homes in
> question - the same ductwork that somehow didn't manage to dammage or
> burn out the motor in the previous furnace - presumably an AC motor?
Yes, and here is why. Your average PSC or split-phase induction blower
motor on high runs at a fairly constant speed (a 4 pole motor can only speed
up from its rated speed, usually 1725 RPM to just under 1800 RPM @ 60Hz).
With a centrifugal blower (squirrel cage) the torque load on the motor is
directly controlled by the amount of air flowing through it (ande vice
versa), hence as you restrict the airflow (increase the SP) say with
undersized ductwork the blower unloads. Less torque at the same speed means
less HP (HP=torque in ft-lbs x RPM / 5252) hence less motor watts. An
underloaded motor is less effecient but lasts longer. Too little TESP on a
system with an induction motor can actually overload the motor, hence why
old systems that had belt drive blowers usually has a variable pitch sheave
on the motor. The belt ratio hence wheel speed was adjusted to run the
motor at full load with a new system. As the ductwork and/or filter got
dirty the TESP went up and the motor unloaded some.
Now here is where it gets tricky, ECMs as used on indoor blowers are
constant torque NOT constant speed. The shaft torque is held constant hence
the airflow is held mostly constant. Increase the TESP on these systems and
the blower speeds up either till the torque/airflow goes back to rated or
till the motor hits its top speed limit. More RPM X same torque / 5252 =
More HP = more watts. More watts x same airflow means hotter electronics
hence shorter life. Add in a plugged filter and the poor little motor runs
its little heart out at max speed with little cooling airflow till it burns
up.
> I'm sorry, but if my 36 year-old AC motor didn't burn out because of the
> size of my existing ductwork, then it's a crock of shit that the same
> ductwork is the reason why a new ECM motor burns up.
Explained above.
> Blame the ductwork. When you have to explain to the customer why his
> new $4000 furnace is costing so much repair hassles, blame the ductwork.
>
>
> You need to show you're a man by pointing out exactly which of my
> statements above are wrong.
>
> I'm right when I say that:
>
> 1) ECM motor uses 100 less watts when running full speed compared to 1/4
> hp AC motor running at full speed.
As said this depends on TESP. At high TESP the ECM can use more watts than
the PSC.
> 2) The extra 100 watts used by AC motor is dumped into the house as heat
> during the heating months, so it isin't exactly wasted energy from the
> point of view of the home owner.
Electric resistance heat is usually more expensive than gas heat and in the
summer it is just more sensible heat load on the evaporator hence more watts
still loses.
tra...@optonline.net
> "Home Guy" <H...@Guy.com> wrote in messagenews:4CFD0178...@Guy.com...
A while back I came across a study done on the savings of ECM blowers
in residential HVAC
applications segmented by geographic regions/climates. One key result
of that study, which
I didn't expect and I believe is reflected in what you say, is that
how much energy one saves
depends to a large extent on the duct work. The greatest savings came
from ideal
duct work, ie lowest pressure. Next was good duct work, which also
used significantly
less savings. Duct work they classified as typical still got
savings, but much more modest,
maybe 15- 20% in electricity cost. However if you have poor ducting
there can be no savings
or even a net loss of up to I think about 10%. The energy savings
also obviously depends on the climate.
But I think HomeGuy has a vaild point, at least to some extent.
Whether you can recover enough
in energy savings on an ECM versus the increased upfront cost as well
as the real potential for
higher repair bills is questionable. I've seen horror stories here
of the ECM electronics fried
by power surges for example and a $600 bill But I've never heard of
a conventional furnace blower
failing from a power surge. Also, I think you'd agree that if
improper duct sizing can screw it an cause it to fail, it's entirely
possible that some contractors who don't know what they are doing will
result in the motor failing
at some point. And if that point is after the warranty is up, then
you're screwed.
>
> > I'm sorry, but if my 36 year-old AC motor didn't burn out because of the
> > size of my existing ductwork, then it's a crock of shit that the same
> > ductwork is the reason why a new ECM motor burns up.
>
> Explained above.
>
> > Blame the ductwork. When you have to explain to the customer why his
> > new $4000 furnace is costing so much repair hassles, blame the ductwork.
>
> > You need to show you're a man by pointing out exactly which of my
> > statements above are wrong.
>
> > I'm right when I say that:
>
> > 1) ECM motor uses 100 less watts when running full speed compared to 1/4
> > hp AC motor running at full speed.
>
> As said this depends on TESP. At high TESP the ECM can use more watts than
> the PSC.
>
> > 2) The extra 100 watts used by AC motor is dumped into the house as heat
> > during the heating months, so it isin't exactly wasted energy from the
> > point of view of the home owner.
>
> Electric resistance heat is usually more expensive than gas heat and in the
> summer it is just more sensible heat load on the evaporator hence more watts
> still loses.
This same faulty logic is frequently applied to water heaters with
claims that the standby
losses from storage tank models helps heat the house. For some
reason, they completely
forget that for most of us with AC, that gain turns into a loss in the
summer.
.p.jm.@see_my_sig_for_address.com
>On Mon, 06 Dec 2010 10:30:00 -0500, Home Guy <Ho...@Guy.com> wrote:
>
>>
>>How exactly do you improperly install a furnace?
>>
>>What is meant by improper?
>>
>>That the return duct and output air plenum are connected
>>backwards?
>
>All jokes aside, I saw that once.
Not uncommon, actually. Upflow unit replaced with downflow
unit ... presto.
Gas fittings / pipe 'held together' with duct tape .....
One of my 'most memorable' discoveries long ago - Imagine a
typical kitchen from the 70's. Stainless steel sink, electric
4-burner in-counter stovetop right next to it.
Accidently touch the chrome trim around the stovetop and the
sink at the same time - get knocked on your ass.
Oh - house occupied by two old folks in their 80's.
Lift the stovetop to find - a wire burned off the burner
connector, so someone ( a PAID 'repairman' ! ) strapped it to the
OUTSIDE of the burner element with a worm clamp.
ransley
>
> - Show quoted text -- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -
If a power surge fried the blower it would have got the control panel
first. With any new unit you should be doubly sure its surge protected
and well grounded since you will have alot of electronics. When I got
my install they offered to somehow test my duct airflow, thats where
shopping for the right pro is important. I heard those motors were
redesigned a few years ago to separate the electronics from the heat
of the motor, since the electronics were what failed and now the motor
and design has finaly matured.
cl...@snyder.on.ca
>Steve wrote:
snip
>How exactly do you improperly install a furnace?
snip
>
>> 90% of those (ECM motor) failures were due to incorrectly designed
>> and sized ductwork that caused extreme static pressures.
>
>Would these be the same ductwork designed and installed by licensed
>contractors?
>
>Would these be the same ductwork that was original to the homes in
>question - the same ductwork that somehow didn't manage to dammage or
>burn out the motor in the previous furnace - presumably an AC motor?
It is quite possible. A belt drive blower could put up with an awfull
lot
>
>I'm sorry, but if my 36 year-old AC motor didn't burn out because of the
>size of my existing ductwork, then it's a crock of shit that the same
>ductwork is the reason why a new ECM motor burns up.
>
>Blame the ductwork. When you have to explain to the customer why his
>new $4000 furnace is costing so much repair hassles, blame the ductwork.
Not necessarily - but if the installer does not do the temperature
rize test and properly set the motor speed, you could get a failure
due to improper installation.
>
>> > Correct term for vsdc motors is ECM. ECM motors are a crock of
>> > shit. Best you'll save is 100 watts compared to 1/4 hp AC motor,
>> > and less if you have 2-speed AC motor. Saving 100 watts at 10
>> > cents/kwh is about $100 (that's 100 watts continuously for an
>> > entire year). Now subtract the electricity used by the furnace
>> > otherboard, and various other blowers and condensate pump. The
>> > extra 100 watts used by AC motors are dumped into the house as
>> > heat - which is what you need in the winter (and spring and fall
>> > depending where you live) so it's not all wasted energy.
>>
You underestimate the difference in efficiency between a standard
induction motor and an electronically commutated DC motor,
PARTICULARLY with multi-speed AC motors.
At lower speeds ECMs can save over 60% of the electricity used by PSC
motors.
For example, in low speed circulation a typical PSC furnace motor will
use 350 to 500 Watts while an ECM will use 75 - 125 W.
You need to read the entire study at:
http://www.nrc-cnrc.gc.ca/obj/irc/doc/pubs/nrcc38443/nrcc38443.pdf,
but an interesting part is the following - with the same airflow,
"The power use of the ECM and the PSC motor were measured in one-time
tests using a Nanovip power meter. The ECM used 16.5 Watts in
circulation speed and 284 W in heating speed, while the PSC motor used
350 W in circulation and 490 W in heating. Thus, the ECM used 58% as
much as the PSC motor in heating speed, but only 5% as much in
circulation. The ECM’s flow rate was almost identical to the PSC’s in
heating speed, and was 47% of the PSC’s in circulation speed."
>> you need to do some more homework here.
Ditto
>You need to show you're a man by pointing out exactly which of my
>statements above are wrong.
>
>I'm right when I say that:
>
>1) ECM motor uses 100 less watts when running full speed compared to 1/4
>hp AC motor running at full speed.
The National Research Council study quoted shows 206 watts difference
on high speed, and 330 watts less on low speed.
>
>2) The extra 100 watts used by AC motor is dumped into the house as heat
>during the heating months, so it isin't exactly wasted energy from the
>point of view of the home owner.
>
Except when running the AC - and gas is cheaper than electricity for
heating.
>3) You can't compare the energy usage of an ECM motor running 1/4 or 1/2
>speed against a single-speed AC motor. If you want to compare the costs
>of multi-speed operation, then you must compare ECM with a 2-speed AC
>motor, and you must correctly estimate the amount of time (total hours
>per year) that the fan will be running at fractional speed.
>
Or do as the National Research Council did, read the study - very
comprehensive testing.
>> > Lifespan of ECM motor is 1/2 to 1/4 that of AC motor, and it's
>> > 4 to 8 times more expensive (upfront cost of furnace is higher,
>> > repair costs higher). ECM motors create EM/RFI on your household
>> > wiring, can interfere with tv and radio reception.
>>
>> ECM motors have the same or greater lifespan,
>
>Totally wrong, because you have to factor in the control or drive
>electronics that's powering the motor, and when you do, you'll end up
>with burned out transistors.
Actually, they are finding the ECM to last at least as long as the AC
motor in many tests. (in part because they run cooler).
The motor control electronics are the least troublesom of all the
controls on modern furnaces.
SNIP
>The pilot light and it's thermocouple switch have proven to be an
>excellent design in terms of safety, reliability and durability for
>residential furnaces. Do you disagree? Do you have the balls to
>disagree?
>
I do.
I've replaced too many thermocouples on standing pilot furnaces - and
NO electonic ignitors so far on the new furnaces. Average lifespan of
my thermocouples has been less than 7 years (5 in 22 years on my own
furnace, and 5 in 7 years on my friend's gas boiler) I'm on #3 on my
water heater as well.
This is, I believe, year 8 on the electronic ignition furnace.
SNIP
>
>See above. Best case savings is $200 a year, typical savings will
>almost certainly be less than $100 a year.
>
>Anyone who lives in a climate zone where they expect to use their
>furnace at least 5 months out of the year will realize less than $100
>savings in their combined electric and gas bill just by having a furnace
>with an ECM motor. Anyone who lives in a more temperate climate zone
>and runs their fan more often either alone or in conjunction with their
>A/C unit will come closer to the $200 in electricity savings.
The blower in my furnace runs at low speed 100% of the time that the
furnace is not running on high for heat or a/c. (for air cleaner and
overall comfort)
If the furnace NEVER kicked on, the ECM saves me 2890kwh per year.
(330 watts X 24 hrs/day X 365=2890800 wh).That's $232 at $0.08 per
kwh. and that's not counting the savings when the furnace is actually
running. And the actual cost of electricity is more than $0.08/kwh
here when you add in the distribution charges and everything else, and
throw on 13% HST
>
>> BTW, I installed a new 3ton, 15SEER heat pump system for a customer
>
>We're talking simply about ECM motors replacing conventional PSC AC fan
>motors in residential furnaces. Motors that are part of other
>components (heat pumps, A/C compressors, dishwashers, clothes washers,
>dryers, etc) are another matter and have different cost/benefit
>arguments.
>
>> > As a consumer, give me the choice of (...)
>
>> So you want to go back in time and have your energy bills doubled..
>
>The single largest decrease in my energy bill that the furnace industry
>can give me compared to what I have now comes from the 2-stage
>condensing heat exchanger. Better airflow design, thinner materials,
>stainless, possibly better burner design, etc. All of that comes from
>better thermodynamics and materials - NOT ELECTRONICS.
Actually, IF the condensing furnace is 7% more efficient than the
equivalent non-condensing furnace, (97 vs 90) the fuel savings will be
about 8%. With my total annual gas bill of $700 (part of which is my
water heater) my maximum total gas savings would be less than $56 per
year.
Not a very attractive payback, particularly if I end up replacing the
secondary heat exchanger in 10 years.
>
SNIP
k...@att.bizzzzzzzzzzzz
The ones I've looked at are rated as BTU input, primarily because they have a
fixed operating point (orifice sizes, pressures, etc.) and the efficiency
isn't well regulated. The burner efficiency can be measured and the BTU
output calculated, though.
Vic Smith
>
>Can't figure out whether you are serious or pulling our legs about
>making such comprehensive and radical "modifications" to the modern high
>efficiency gas furnace
No, my furnace is stock modern.
I was just telling Home Guy what it would take to make a modern
furnace work like his old one.
--Vic
Home Guy
ECM motors for use in HVAC air handler systems, I've found that this
document is very informative:
http://www.buildingscience.com/documents/published-articles/pa-ecm-eficiency/at_download/file
I have pasted the conclusions of that document below. It basically says
that the benefits of ECM motors are lost in installations with high
static pressures (and something that I bet a lot of home-owners don't
want to fork out money for is to re-do the duct-work in their homes).
Perhaps someone else can explain why the flow characteristics of a duct
system is described in terms of the back-pressure it generates instead
of speaking directly about the RESISTANCE of the ductwork, even perhaps
putting a number on it (which surely can be done, given that we might
know the CFM and the air pressure at the input side of the duct, and
assuming the pressure at the far end is zero). When someone is talking
about high static pressure, they are essentially saying that the duct
system has a high resistance to flow (caused by any number of reasons -
closed or blocked vents, small-diameter ductwork, long runs of
small-size ducts, turbulence caused by right angles, filter too small or
too dense, etc).
Which could be why my idea that the gating of furnace output around the
A/C coils is not appreciated as something that can reduce airflow
resistance (ie - reduce static pressure).
As someone who's been living with and has experienced HVAC systems with
single-speed AC fan motors, I really can't appreciate the need for a
variable-speed fan motor. All this discussion about how PSC motor
efficiency drops to 15% - 30% when used at low speeds is a real mystery
to me - are there really furnaces out there that have the necessary
electronic controllers that will use PSC motors in such a variable-speed
capacity? Why no real discussion about the efficiency of 2-speed AC
motors?
I also don't understand how running a fan at low speed is better at
humidity removal when the HVAC system is in A/C mode - yet ECM makers
make that claim.
Claims that ECM motors are just as reliable as PSC are also a crock,
given that none of them could possibly be in service yet for 30 to 40
years as is the typical PSC motor to even begin such a comparison.
Youtube video showing badly-behaving ECM motors:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fcdXPVZfrRk
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5MIgb_2LwH4&NR=1
These ECM motors look really flimsy - like the 1/8 hp electric motor I
have on my roof for my attic fan. Sorry - I wouldn't want something
that wimpy in my furnace.
Apparently they are somewhat succeptible to lighting strikes (lightning
doesn't have to hit your house directly to dammage the electronics in
your house). I guess your entire furnace is more succeptible to
lightning when it's got it's own computer. Another strike against the
modern furnace.
---------------------------------------
Conclusions:
The main conclusion that we would draw from this study is that although
the use of an ECM has the potential to reduce fan electrical power draw,
much of the benefit is lost in systems with excess static pressures. A
full analysis of this problem was done by Lawrence Berkeley national
Laboratory (Lutz et al., 2006). In other words (as in many cases in the
building industry) the benefits of high technology can be defeated by
poor design and faulty installation or implementation. Problems can
include excessively constricted duct designs and installations,
restrictive return plenum fittings, or excessively restrictive filters
(see “Is There a Downside to High-MErV Filters?” HE nov/Dec ’09, p.
32).
However, with better designs, air handler efficiencies can be
improved—significantly beyond the typical values assumed in previous
work (that is, 2.5 CFM/W or 0.4 W/CFM). This is especially true when a
given air handler is used at the lower end of its speed range. For
instance, a 1.5- to 3-ton unit being used at 2 tons air flow at 0.5 IWC
static pressure has an efficiency in the range of 3.7 CFM/W (0.27
W/CFM). Of course, reducing air flow for a given size of outdoor unit
can have negative consequences, such as reducing overall efficiency
(SEEr and EEr). But this factor can provide additional ammunition when
arguing for tighter sizing of cooling equipment, and/or two-stage
equipment with a variablespeed air handler.
In other words, if you can keep the air flows down (all other things
being equal), you are giving your ECM a better chance to achieve high
CFM/W efficiencies. The measurement of air handler efficiency is
relatively simple; it can be done mostly with gear that a home
performance contractor is likely to have. an air handler powered from an
electrical receptacle can be quickly measured with a plug-in power meter
such as a Kill-a-Watt. However, power measurements are more
time-consuming if the air handler is hard wired. But overall, increasing
the data set of installed ECM air handler efficiencies could be very
informative, as would measuring and recording the operating external
static pressures for these units.
Oscar_Lives
"Home Guy" <Ho...@Guy.com> wrote in message news:4CFD0178...@Guy.com...
> Steve wrote:
>
>> If the furnace is correctly sized, properly installed and
>> adjusted,
>
> How exactly do you improperly install a furnace?
>
> If you are replacing an existing furnace, one that has been running for
> years in a given house and presumably giving satisfactory service, then
> how possible can you remove it and "improperly" install a new one in
> it's place?
<SNIP whiny drivel>
> You need to show you're a man by pointing out exactly which of my
> statements above are wrong.
>
Come on over and I'll put my money in your mouth and you will see exactly what kind of big man I am. In fact, you will CHOKE on my manhood.
>SNIP more drivel>
> The pilot light and it's thermocouple switch have proven to be an
> excellent design in terms of safety, reliability and durability for
> residential furnaces. Do you disagree? Do you have the balls to
> disagree?
>
Come on over and feel them in your mouth.
>
> I can install myself any furnace. That's not the point. I'm just
> bitching about they choices that furnace makers are making when they
> design / build them.
You can install my very large penis in your mouth and install a very large amount of jizz in your belly.
cl...@snyder.on.ca
LOTS of furnaces and AC systems with multispeed PSC motors - and they
are terribly inneficient at low speed. And there is virtually no
"electronics" involved. On my old furnace it was just a relay - the
fan ran on low speed continually untill the furnace called for fan,
when it kicked a relay that put the power to the high speed windings
instead of the low speed.
>I also don't understand how running a fan at low speed is better at
>humidity removal when the HVAC system is in A/C mode - yet ECM makers
>make that claim.
The AC runs the fan at HIGHER speed than the furnace on my new system
- but runs the fan constantly at low speed when the AC or furnace are
not calling for circulation.
>
>Claims that ECM motors are just as reliable as PSC are also a crock,
>given that none of them could possibly be in service yet for 30 to 40
>years as is the typical PSC motor to even begin such a comparison.
>
My PSC lasted less than 20 years. It was a 1/3hp belt drive - replaced
it with a 1/2 HP
>Youtube video showing badly-behaving ECM motors:
>
>http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fcdXPVZfrRk
>http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5MIgb_2LwH4&NR=1
>
>These ECM motors look really flimsy - like the 1/8 hp electric motor I
>have on my roof for my attic fan. Sorry - I wouldn't want something
>that wimpy in my furnace.
Some are wimpy, some look just like a typical PSC motor - and the PSC
direct drive motors WERE wimpy - and many didn't last 10 years.
>
>Apparently they are somewhat succeptible to lighting strikes (lightning
>doesn't have to hit your house directly to dammage the electronics in
>your house). I guess your entire furnace is more succeptible to
>lightning when it's got it's own computer. Another strike against the
>modern furnace.
>
>---------------------------------------
>
>Conclusions:
>
>The main conclusion that we would draw from this study is that although
>the use of an ECM has the potential to reduce fan electrical power draw,
>much of the benefit is lost in systems with excess static pressures. A
>full analysis of this problem was done by Lawrence Berkeley national
>Laboratory (Lutz et al., 2006). In other words (as in many cases in the
>building industry) the benefits of high technology can be defeated by
>poor design and faulty installation or implementation. Problems can
>include excessively constricted duct designs and installations,
>restrictive return plenum fittings, or excessively restrictive filters
>(see “Is There a Downside to High-MErV Filters?” HE nov/Dec ’09, p.
>32).
>
IN ALL cases, the benefits of high technology can be defeated by poor
design and faulty installation - doesn't matter what field you are
looking at.
mm
Interesting. So do they have an AFUE rating?
> The burner efficiency can be measured and the BTU
>output calculated, though.
But the burner "efficiency isn't well regulated". So you mean an
instantaneous measurement of efficiency?
Or an average measurement? Isn't an average measurement made only by
looking at heat (BTU) output and dividing it into BTU input?
How can burner efficiency be measured without first measuring BTU
output? What is there about the burner that can be measured other
than BTU output?
It's not like a lever where the lengths of on both sides of the pivot
can be measured, or a gear where the number of teeth can be counted,
etc.** In cases like this, efficiency is not a real thing that can be
measured. Only input and output can be measured.
**Even in the case of levers and gears, measuring theoretical
efficiency by measuring arm length or counting teeth assumes there is
no loss due to friction or slipping. The real efficiency of a
mechancical device can only be determined by measuring input and
output and dividing one into the other.
The spec sheet I got for at least one oil furnace this year included
input and output and AFUE. If it was on the web and I can find it,
I'll post it.
Daniel who wants to know
>
> As someone who's been living with and has experienced HVAC systems with
> single-speed AC fan motors, I really can't appreciate the need for a
> variable-speed fan motor. All this discussion about how PSC motor
> efficiency drops to 15% - 30% when used at low speeds is a real mystery
> to me - are there really furnaces out there that have the necessary
> electronic controllers that will use PSC motors in such a variable-speed
> capacity? Why no real discussion about the efficiency of 2-speed AC
> motors?
PSC blower motors are not really multispeed at all. All the extra speed taps
are are taps on what acts as an internal autotransformer. High is rated
voltage and the lower speeds just effectively undervolt the motor. Run a
typical 1050 RPM 6 pole PSC blower motor on high sometime and measure the
voltage from the low tap to neutral, it is usually around 170 volts AC
depending on the motor.
There are true 2 speed induction blower motors that are wound as both a 4
pole and a 6 pole. The high and start windings are 4 pole so the motor
always starts on high but if it is hooked up as low it switches the power
from high to low as it starts using the same centrifugal switch that cuts
off the start windings. When not running these motors will show a direct
short between the 2 speed wires.
> I also don't understand how running a fan at low speed is better at
> humidity removal when the HVAC system is in A/C mode - yet ECM makers
> make that claim.
Less airflow allows the evaporator to run colder hence it cools the air more
and the leaving air has a lower dew point hence a lower humidity % when
warmed back up by the house/building..
k...@att.bizzzzzzzzzzzz
Does what have an AFUE rating?
>> The burner efficiency can be measured and the BTU
>>output calculated, though.
>
>But the burner "efficiency isn't well regulated". So you mean an
>instantaneous measurement of efficiency?
>
>Or an average measurement? Isn't an average measurement made only by
>looking at heat (BTU) output and dividing it into BTU input?
Measure the heat going out the stack (stack temperature).
>How can burner efficiency be measured without first measuring BTU
>output? What is there about the burner that can be measured other
>than BTU output?
Measure the waste heat. Eff == Eout/Ein and Eout = Ein-Ewaste
>It's not like a lever where the lengths of on both sides of the pivot
>can be measured, or a gear where the number of teeth can be counted,
>etc.** In cases like this, efficiency is not a real thing that can be
>measured. Only input and output can be measured.
No, the waste heat can be measured, too.
>**Even in the case of levers and gears, measuring theoretical
>efficiency by measuring arm length or counting teeth assumes there is
>no loss due to friction or slipping. The real efficiency of a
>mechancical device can only be determined by measuring input and
>output and dividing one into the other.
>
>The spec sheet I got for at least one oil furnace this year included
>input and output and AFUE. If it was on the web and I can find it,
>I'll post it.
If your service tech is any good he'll measure the efficiency. The point is
that the energy input is well determined by the amount of fuel used. This is
a pretty basic design point, so is specified. Everything else is measured
from there.
Steve
"Home Guy" <Ho...@Guy.com> wrote in message news:4CFDA7DE...@Guy.com...
> When it comes to discussing the pro's (or perhaps the lack thereof) of
> ECM motors for use in HVAC air handler systems, I've found that this
> document is very informative:
>
> http://www.buildingscience.com/documents/published-articles/pa-ecm-eficiency/at_download/file
>
> I have pasted the conclusions of that document below. It basically says
> that the benefits of ECM motors are lost in installations with high
> static pressures (and something that I bet a lot of home-owners don't
> want to fork out money for is to re-do the duct-work in their homes).
>
> Perhaps someone else can explain why the flow characteristics of a duct
> system is described in terms of the back-pressure it generates instead
> of speaking directly about the RESISTANCE of the ductwork, even perhaps
> putting a number on it (which surely can be done, given that we might
> know the CFM and the air pressure at the input side of the duct, and
> assuming the pressure at the far end is zero). When someone is talking
> about high static pressure, they are essentially saying that the duct
> system has a high resistance to flow (caused by any number of reasons -
> closed or blocked vents, small-diameter ductwork, long runs of
> small-size ducts, turbulence caused by right angles, filter too small or
> too dense, etc).
Exactly, and this applies to *ANY* type of blower motor
> Which could be why my idea that the gating of furnace output around the
> A/C coils is not appreciated as something that can reduce airflow
> resistance (ie - reduce static pressure).
Your idea if "gating" around the coil will cause more resistance to airflow
becaise of the right angles, and induced turbulance than just going straight
through the coil..... this is assuming that your using a coil that is
designed specificaly for that furnace (OEM).
> As someone who's been living with and has experienced HVAC systems with
> single-speed AC fan motors, I really can't appreciate the need for a
> variable-speed fan motor. All this discussion about how PSC motor
> efficiency drops to 15% - 30% when used at low speeds is a real mystery
> to me - are there really furnaces out there that have the necessary
> electronic controllers that will use PSC motors in such a variable-speed
> capacity? Why no real discussion about the efficiency of 2-speed AC
> motors?
There is no benifit with a 2 speed PSC motor, other than it has 2 speeds, as
compared to a single speed PSC motor.
> I also don't understand how running a fan at low speed is better at
> humidity removal when the HVAC system is in A/C mode - yet ECM makers
> make that claim.
It slows down the air passing the evap coil and allows more moisture to
condense on the coils to increase humidity removal.
> Claims that ECM motors are just as reliable as PSC are also a crock,
> given that none of them could possibly be in service yet for 30 to 40
> years as is the typical PSC motor to even begin such a comparison.
None of the "new" fractional horsepower motors will last 30 to 40 years
anymore, 10 - 15 years is a good lifespan. As a rule, none of them have oil
ports for lubrication, and *most* of them have sleeve bearings, not ball
bearings.
> Youtube video showing badly-behaving ECM motors:
>
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fcdXPVZfrRk
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5MIgb_2LwH4&NR=1
>
> These ECM motors look really flimsy - like the 1/8 hp electric motor I
> have on my roof for my attic fan. Sorry - I wouldn't want something
> that wimpy in my furnace.
You don't have a choice anymore.
> Apparently they are somewhat succeptible to lighting strikes (lightning
> doesn't have to hit your house directly to dammage the electronics in
> your house). I guess your entire furnace is more succeptible to
> lightning when it's got it's own computer. Another strike against the
> modern furnace.
Your furnace is no more succeptable to lightning or power surges than any
other appliance in your home that has a circuit board in it.
Your going to be dragged into the 21st century whether you want to or not.
Get over it
> ------------------------------------
>
> Conclusions:
>
> The main conclusion that we would draw from this study is that although
> the use of an ECM has the potential to reduce fan electrical power draw,
> much of the benefit is lost in systems with excess static pressures. A
> full analysis of this problem was done by Lawrence Berkeley national
> Laboratory (Lutz et al., 2006). In other words (as in many cases in the
> building industry) the benefits of high technology can be defeated by
> poor design and faulty installation or implementation. Problems can
> include excessively constricted duct designs and installations,
> restrictive return plenum fittings, or excessively restrictive filters
> (see "Is There a Downside to High-MErV Filters?" HE nov/Dec '09, p.
> 32).
This means that your ductwork will have to be checked for correct design and
airflow. If your too cheap to pay have it done right, then there *WILL* be
consequences, and its going to hit you right in the wallet in the form of
failures/repairs, higher utility bills, and lower comfort levels.
> However, with better designs, air handler efficiencies can be
> improved-significantly beyond the typical values assumed in previous
> work (that is, 2.5 CFM/W or 0.4 W/CFM). This is especially true when a
> given air handler is used at the lower end of its speed range. For
> instance, a 1.5- to 3-ton unit being used at 2 tons air flow at 0.5 IWC
> static pressure has an efficiency in the range of 3.7 CFM/W (0.27
> W/CFM). Of course, reducing air flow for a given size of outdoor unit
> can have negative consequences, such as reducing overall efficiency
> (SEEr and EEr). But this factor can provide additional ammunition when
> arguing for tighter sizing of cooling equipment, and/or two-stage
> equipment with a variablespeed air handler.
Your *STILL* have to have the ductwork and system sized for your home.
> In other words, if you can keep the air flows down (all other things
> being equal), you are giving your ECM a better chance to achieve high
> CFM/W efficiencies. The measurement of air handler efficiency is
> relatively simple; it can be done mostly with gear that a home
> performance contractor is likely to have. an air handler powered from an
> electrical receptacle can be quickly measured with a plug-in power meter
> such as a Kill-a-Watt. However, power measurements are more
> time-consuming if the air handler is hard wired. But overall, increasing
> the data set of installed ECM air handler efficiencies could be very
> informative, as would measuring and recording the operating external
> static pressures for these units.
This is why you need to get a *competent*, licensed, insured, professionally
trained HVAC technician to do the job. One who can and will do the
calculations, and take the measurements to insure that everything is
correctly sized and operating at peak efficiency............ or you can call
"Billy-Joe-Jim-Bob" down the road, or try to DIY. Either way, your going to
get what you paid for.
There is a reason that the very best techs do 5 - 7 semester hours a year in
continuing education and training. your not *JUST* paying for a guy with a
ticket book and a truck, unless your looking for the lowest price.
Mark
http://www.nrc-cnrc.gc.ca/obj/irc/doc/pubs/nrcc38443/nrcc38443.pdf
yes anyone interested in this subject should read that...
and take note that the study system had the blower running 100% of
the time. When the furnace was not heating, the blower ran for
circulation. and the ECM motor ran much sloer in circ mode compared
to the standard blower so there was much less circulation and not
surprisingly less energy was used.
But if you turn the blower OFF when the furnace is off like most real
people do, then it is less relevant.
and also note the part where the ECM blower caused gas consumption to
increase..
I would say the facts are presented in this paper but the writer
slanted the conclusion in favor of the ECM.
Follow the money...
Mark
ransley
Whats obvious is you are doing everything you can to put down Vsdc
motors and modern electronics for no good reason. Its future is here,
live with it.
cl...@snyder.on.ca
wrote:
>> You need to read the entire study at:
>http://www.nrc-cnrc.gc.ca/obj/irc/doc/pubs/nrcc38443/nrcc38443.pdf
>
>yes anyone interested in this subject should read that...
>
> and take note that the study system had the blower running 100% of
>the time. When the furnace was not heating, the blower ran for
>circulation. and the ECM motor ran much sloer in circ mode compared
>to the standard blower so there was much less circulation and not
>surprisingly less energy was used.
The blower speed was adjusted to provide the most efficient heat
transfer - and actually the best air flow as well. Running a squirrel
cage fan too fast can actually REDUCE circulation. I think that was
also explained in the article. That's also why restricted ducting is
such a big deal.
>
>But if you turn the blower OFF when the furnace is off like most real
>people do, then it is less relevant.
MOST people turn the blower off???
Not up here. Running the blower on low speed keeps temperatures even,
and makes the air filter a lot more effective.
>
>and also note the part where the ECM blower caused gas consumption to
>increase..
That was also explained - and I mentioned that in an earlier thread -
the higher efficiency of the blower means more gas is required - but
the cost per therm using gas is a lot lower than the cost per therm
for electric, so it is still a net saving.
>
>I would say the facts are presented in this paper but the writer
>slanted the conclusion in favor of the ECM.
>
>Follow the money...
>
In the case of the National Research Council there is no money to
follow. They are neutral, and not funded by manufacturing or marketing
companies.
>Mark
>
cl...@snyder.on.ca
wrote:
>
>
>Your going to be dragged into the 21st century whether you want to or not.
>Get over it
>
Needs to be dragged into the twentieth first, before the twenty-first
>> ------------------------------------
Steve
<cl...@snyder.on.ca> wrote in message
news:rh30g61rh1emst79s...@4ax.com...
> On Wed, 8 Dec 2010 08:35:18 -0600, "Steve" <jste...@comcast.net>
> wrote:
>
>>
>>
>>Your going to be dragged into the 21st century whether you want to or not.
>>Get over it
>>
>
> Needs to be dragged into the twentieth first, before the twenty-first
Good point.
tra...@optonline.net
> On Wed, 8 Dec 2010 10:14:48 -0800 (PST), Mark <makol...@yahoo.com>
> wrote:
>
> >> You need to read the entire study at:
> >http://www.nrc-cnrc.gc.ca/obj/irc/doc/pubs/nrcc38443/nrcc38443.pdf
>
> >yes anyone interested in this subject should read that...
>
> > and take note that the study system had the blower running 100% of
> >the time. When the furnace was not heating, the blower ran for
> >circulation. and the ECM motor ran much sloer in circ mode compared
> >to the standard blower so there was much less circulation and not
> >surprisingly less energy was used.
>
> The blower speed was adjusted to provide the most efficient heat
> transfer - and actually the best air flow as well. Running a squirrel
> cage fan too fast can actually REDUCE circulation. I think that was
> also explained in the article. That's also why restricted ducting is
> such a big deal.
>
>
>
> >But if you turn the blower OFF when the furnace is off like most real
> >people do, then it is less relevant.
>
> MOST people turn the blower off???
> Not up here. Running the blower on low speed keeps temperatures even,
> and makes the air filter a lot more effective.
I would bet 90%+ of the HVAC installed in the USA runs the blower only
when
the furnace is heating or the AC is cooling, not 24/7. In a typical
house with an
unfinished basement or crawl space, I would think running it
constantly would be
a significant waste of energy from two standpoints. One is that it
obviously uses
a lot more electricity. Second is that while circulating all that
air around you are
running it through the basement or crawlspace, attice, etc that is
unheated and
you are losing heat through the duct work on each pass.
With a properly designed system, I don't see the need for constant
circulation.
>
>
>
> >and also note the part where the ECM blower caused gas consumption to
> >increase..
>
> That was also explained - and I mentioned that in an earlier thread -
> the higher efficiency of the blower means more gas is required - but
> the cost per therm using gas is a lot lower than the cost per therm
> for electric, so it is still a net saving.
>
> >I would say the facts are presented in this paper but the writer
> >slanted the conclusion in favor of the ECM.
>
> >Follow the money...
>
> In the case of the National Research Council there is no money to
> follow. They are neutral, and not funded by manufacturing or marketing
> companies.
>
From the research I've done, I've concluded that the ECM motors are a
mixed
bag. In a typical house like mine (note that means running it only
when heating/cooling),
you might save 20% on electricity. I would pay some extra $$ for
that. However compared
to a regular motor, you have the issue of potentially higher repair
cost, ie $700 bills instead of
$100 due to the increased cost of the motor as well as the electronics
to run it.
cl...@snyder.on.ca
You don't see the need for it, but the VAST majority of new furnace
installations in ontario are set to run the blower on low, constantly.
All 3 contractors we contacted for quotes for my daughter's furnace
(multi-story condo) strongly recommended it.
Vic Smith
Strange that Canadians do that.
Maybe makes sense for that multi-story condo building.
Wouldn't make sense for my house.
Small 3-bedoom, no "zoned" heating.
Though you can "zone" by closing vents and doors to some extent.
In some situations a blower always running during heating cycle would
work that works - to distribute fireplace heat is one.
In my house the thermostat is located in the hallway adjacent to where
we spend most of our time - bedrooms, bathroom and kitchen.
The dining room and living room are cooler. Maybe a degree or 2.
And they are as big as the other rooms combined.
This suits us fine.
When we have company and are in the living room/dining room body heat
and sometimes cooking heat spilling from the kitchen keeps those rooms
comfortable.
When it's hot though I have to lower the thermostat to keep those
rooms cool.
I could reverse all that by moving the thermostat if I wanted to, but
it works how it is.
What would happen if my blower was constantly running during heating
and cooling times is this.
In winter heat would be lost through living/dining room walls and
windows, and when the A/C is running heat would be gained through the
same.
All of this come down to personal tolerance for uneven heat in
different rooms, and how much you want to pay.
There's absolutely no question that in my house a constantly running
blower would cost me both in electricity and natural gas.
Because it would move heat or cool air to places it's not needed.
I used to argue with my wife all the time about heating and cooling.
She can't take it cool in the winter, or warm in the summer.
I gave up the argument. You got to know when to fold 'em.
But I never even started an argument with the laws of thermo dynamics,
and don't intend to.
BTW, this reminds me how car A/C compressors kick in on defrost mode.
I used to pull the A/C plug when winter rolled around because I never
had a problem defrosting with just undried hot air and didn't wait to
waste a couple/few HP all winter just to blow dried air on the
windshield.
I stopped that when I heard the compressor seals could suffer from
disuse, but mostly because I lost my "need for speed."
--Vic
ransley
>
> - Show quoted text -- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -
On only the coldest or hottest days do I run the fan 24hr just to
balance things out. 24x7 will sure wear out a motor faster
.p.jm.@see_my_sig_for_address.com
<mark.ra...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>On only the coldest or hottest days do I run the fan 24hr just to
>balance things out. 24x7 will sure wear out a motor faster
Actually, the worst thing for a motor is frequent starts.
cl...@snyder.on.ca
With the DC blower it's only about 100 watts to run the blower on low
in my house - a 2 story with finished basement and no doors between
floors. The house is quite well insulated, but the upstairs is still
cooler than the main floor, and the basement is very comfortable year
round.With the blower running on low constantly we do not get
condensation on the patio door on extreme cold days like we did
without the blower running, (RH is steady at about 35%)
(one register is at the corner of the door)
My daughter's place is a 6 level split, basement, entry, living room,
kitchen/dining, 2 BR and bath, and master bedroom. Built like a ruddy
silo - definitely no place for old men!!!!
We just insulated the basement and attic, and right now, with temps
down to -17, the only cool area is the entry level (built on concrete
slab - 3 outside walls)
cl...@snyder.on.ca
<mark.ra...@gmail.com> wrote:
The only motor I've had fail was the single speed belt drive. I
replaced it with the 2 speed just under half way through the life of
the furnace. The original was a 1/3HP, the replacement was 1/2 and
1/6.
The new furnace is a multispeed brushless DC motor
Home Guy
> With the DC blower it's only about 100 watts to run the blower
> on low in my house
Look - I live in Ontario too. And I just got dumped on with 3 feet of
snow, and it's like 16 to 24 F around here lately.
I live in a drafty 1976-era house. I can tell you that there is no
reason to run the blower constantly in the winter. When I switch my
HVAC from summer to winter mode, the only time my blower fan comes on is
when the furnace is on. There is just no need for a constant breeze
inside your house in the winter.
Running the fan constantly in the winter, even at a low speed, is not
efficient from a heating point of view. By keeping a constant breeze,
you're helping interior heat loss by causing interior air to constantly
come into contact with your walls and windows, which are the coolest
parts of the interior and from which heat is transfered out of your
house. When the fan is off and there's no air circulation, a
temperature gradient will set up in the air near the surface of the
walls and that air will be cold but you won't get as much heat loss
through this gradient as you would if the air was constantly mixing.
In the summer (late may to maybe late september) yes my fan is on quite
a bit, and even if I had a low-speed option I would not use it - I would
still be using the normal hi-speed mode for circulation and comfort.
And I still say that having the ability to draw return air totally from
a dedicated outside duct in the summer and force the normal return air
out of the house through another duct is more energy-efficient at
cooling your house vs using an AC during those times when the outside
air temp is lower than the current inside air temp, which frequently
happens in the late afternoon and evening in the spring and late summer.
Home Guy
> The new furnace is a multispeed brushless DC motor
Which are glorified stepper motors.
In my house, the only place these wimpy DC motors will ever be is in my
hard drive and DVD players.
Vic Smith
>
>And I still say that having the ability to draw return air totally from
>a dedicated outside duct in the summer and force the normal return air
>out of the house through another duct is more energy-efficient at
>cooling your house vs using an AC during those times when the outside
>air temp is lower than the current inside air temp, which frequently
>happens in the late afternoon and evening in the spring and late summer.
I totally agee with that.
Probably isn't done because of issues with ducting to the outside.
For my basement furnace it wold take a up window, not counting the
ductwork and diverters.
So we open the windows when it's cooler outside than in.
But if there's no breeze you really need fans in the windows to make
that work well.
--Vic
Steve
"Home Guy" <Ho...@Guy.com> wrote in message news:4D018B15...@Guy.com...
> cl...@snyder.on.ca unnecessarily full-quoted:
>
>> The new furnace is a multispeed brushless DC motor
>
> Which are glorified stepper motors.
ECM motors are *NOT* stepper motors. If you had a half a clue, you would
know this.
> In my house, the only place these wimpy DC motors will ever be is in my
> hard drive and DVD players.
Its too bad you have your mind made up and can't be confused with the facts.
If ignorance is bliss, you must be in a constant state of euphoria.
cl...@snyder.on.ca
>cl...@snyder.on.ca improperly and unnecessarily full-quoted:
>
>> With the DC blower it's only about 100 watts to run the blower
>> on low in my house
>
>Look - I live in Ontario too. And I just got dumped on with 3 feet of
>snow, and it's like 16 to 24 F around here lately.
London area? You poor guys - Waterloo Region dodged the bullet this
time!!!
>
>I live in a drafty 1976-era house. I can tell you that there is no
>reason to run the blower constantly in the winter. When I switch my
>HVAC from summer to winter mode, the only time my blower fan comes on is
>when the furnace is on. There is just no need for a constant breeze
>inside your house in the winter.
>
>Running the fan constantly in the winter, even at a low speed, is not
>efficient from a heating point of view. By keeping a constant breeze,
>you're helping interior heat loss by causing interior air to constantly
>come into contact with your walls and windows, which are the coolest
>parts of the interior and from which heat is transfered out of your
>house. When the fan is off and there's no air circulation, a
>temperature gradient will set up in the air near the surface of the
>walls and that air will be cold but you won't get as much heat loss
>through this gradient as you would if the air was constantly mixing.
You can say what you like. I heat my 1970's (1974?) 2 storey for $700
a year in Waterloo with natural gas.
>
>In the summer (late may to maybe late september) yes my fan is on quite
>a bit, and even if I had a low-speed option I would not use it - I would
>still be using the normal hi-speed mode for circulation and comfort.
Only use the AC on the really nasty hot/humid days. This last summer
that was about 2 weeks
cl...@snyder.on.ca
They are a heck of a lot more efficient than a crappy split cap
induction motor!!
tra...@optonline.net
I'd say it depends on how much cooler the outside air is. And even
then, you have
the issue of humidity which is a major concern in many climates.
Pulling humid
air from outside that happens to be 5 deg cooler than the house inside
wouldn't
seem to make a lot of sense to me. And here in the NYC area, the few
days of the
year you would do that, ie some Spring and early Fall days, it just
isn't worth it comared
to the addional ducting. Besides, I thought Home Guy was all about
simplicity. At a
minimum such a system would require actuators, more controls, etc. To
do it right
you'd have to measure outside temp, outside humidity, inside temp,
inside humidity and
then have a mircrocontroller decide what to do. Sounds exactly like
the complexity that
HG wants to rip out of a new high efficiency furnace.
If you want to go that route, a whole house fan to pull air in from
outside is an option. But
it too has the above problems and being in the upstairs ceiling/attic
interface, you now
have something difficult to seal and insulate perfectly for the entire
winter. Meaning what
you gain in a few days that you use it could be more than lost.
tra...@optonline.net
>
> - Show quoted text -
I have 57 years of service experience with conventional blower motors
that
cycle on and off with the furnace/AC and have not had one fail yet.
So,
I'd say using them only during heat or AC vs running them 24/7 is a
non-
issue in terms of longevity.
Vic Smith
You don't need microcontrollers. Just go to the basement and pull a
lever or crank on a chain fall (-:
Where I live, and the house I live in, it makes sense to draw in
outside air at night about 10-30 days a year, depending.
My house is brick, with little or no insulation.
Haven't torn off any drywall on the exterior walls, but I know from
drilling the drywall is on furring, maybe 1", not 2x4's.
Never picked up any fluff when drilling.
Surprisingly, my gas bill isn't bad.
But it can absorb a lot of heat during the days of high sun and the
heat migrates in if the nights aren't sufficiently cool.
Better to have the night air working on both sides.
Adds up to 10-30 days a year, depending.
The same was true of my last brick house.
Besides, if it's not too humid, outside air is good.
--Vic
Home Guy
> >> The new furnace is a multispeed brushless DC motor
>
> They are a heck of a lot more efficient than a crappy split cap
> induction motor!!
Sometimes durability and longevity trumps efficiency.
Even if electric heat (on a per-therm basis) is twice the cost of
natural gas, that extra energy used by a PSC motor is beneficially used
by my house in the winter, and my PSC fan is running only maybe 25 to
33% of the time, not 100% of the time. In the summer, when my fan is
running more often, it's running at full speed - something that I would
also ask an ECM motor to do, and for which the ECM motor does not have
as much of an efficiency advantage over a PSC motor.
So I'll pay the net $100 a year in additional energy cost and never have
to worry about my PSC motor failing me for several decades - if ever.
Even after gov't rebates, forking out a minimum $2000 for a new furnace
is going to take years to recover that, with the ECM motor delivering
just $100 a year and the burners / heat-exchanger *maybe* giving me an
additional $200 a year in savings. And by the time I've made those
savings the furnace will be near the end of it's reliable life-span.
Steve
<tra...@optonline.net> wrote in message
news:0d6f9a65-aa35-45a0...@s5g2000yqm.googlegroups.com...
---------------------------------------------------
Running the blower on continuous for A/C here in the deep south will
actually raise the indoor humidity, but during the winter I do ust the
"circ" function on the system control to keep the temperature mor even
between the 3 floors. The "circ" function brings on the blower for 15 - 20
minutes an hour, just to circulate the air in the house.
Steve
"Home Guy" <Ho...@Guy.com> wrote in message news:4D023E48...@Guy.com...
So your saying that the "reliable life span" of the new furnaces is only 6 -
7 years?? This may be true when installed by John Q Homeowner, or the lowest
bidder, however when correctly installed, properly adjusted, and with
correctly sized ductwork, the normal lifespan is 20 - 23 years.
You still cannot buy a new furnace today that *DOESN"T* have electronics
controling it. Furnaces with PSC motors are still available, but only in the
cheapest, lowest efficiency, "builder grade" models.
Maybe thats why your so against the new furnaces... your got the cheapest
POS furnace you could find, you got what you paid for, and now your not
happy with it.
bud--
Some systems for commercial buildings do use all outside air when
economical. They need, if I remember right, 10% outside air when
occupied in any case. Makes it more practical to go to 100%. Duct
control is with "damper motors".
They don't just use outside temperature. They likely use an "enthalpy"
controller, which combines temperature and humidity. If you don't take
in air with humidity that is too high you don't have to worry about
inside humidity, and control on temperature. One I remember had a
temperature "set point" control in the supply air duct, that was a
potentiometer output, which connected to the damper motor that
controlled the amount of outside air that came in.
--
bud--
The Daring Dufas
I've rented old buildings in the past that had an interesting hollow
tile like building block construction for the walls. The material
looks like the red roof tiles and with no heat in the warehouse area,
the temperature never got into the low 30° range, nothing ever froze.
I don't know what the material is but it seems like the designers
knew what they were doing around the turn of the last century. :-)
TDD
cl...@snyder.on.ca
Up here in Central Ontario when it is hot enough that you would want
to draw in the outside air, the humidity is way too high to make it an
acceptable alternative most days.
>
cl...@snyder.on.ca
>cl...@snyder.on.ca wrote:
>
>> >> The new furnace is a multispeed brushless DC motor
>>
>> They are a heck of a lot more efficient than a crappy split cap
>> induction motor!!
>
>Sometimes durability and longevity trumps efficiency.
What kind of motor do you think is in virtually every electric or
hybrid vehicle, and the majority of electric cycles???
ECMs are a lot less trouble prone than brushed DC motors. ONE moving
part, no open commutation, no wear, no sparks, no brushes.
>
>Even if electric heat (on a per-therm basis) is twice the cost of
>natural gas, that extra energy used by a PSC motor is beneficially used
>by my house in the winter, and my PSC fan is running only maybe 25 to
>33% of the time, not 100% of the time. In the summer, when my fan is
>running more often, it's running at full speed - something that I would
>also ask an ECM motor to do, and for which the ECM motor does not have
>as much of an efficiency advantage over a PSC motor.
Still has enough of an advantage that I wouls choose the ECM over the
PCM even if I did not choose to run the fan on low constantly.
Hey, it's your choice.
I feel I made an informed choice, and I'm more than happy with the
choice I made. You want to run with 1930's technology, that's fine
with me. I won't twist your arm.
But I also will not agree that the old stuff is always better
>
>So I'll pay the net $100 a year in additional energy cost and never have
>to worry about my PSC motor failing me for several decades - if ever.
>
>Even after gov't rebates, forking out a minimum $2000 for a new furnace
>is going to take years to recover that, with the ECM motor delivering
>just $100 a year and the burners / heat-exchanger *maybe* giving me an
>additional $200 a year in savings. And by the time I've made those
>savings the furnace will be near the end of it's reliable life-span.
That's fine as long as your old furnace lasts. I wouldn't go out and
spend $2000 (or more) for a new furnace just to get an ECM fan. But I
sure wouldn't cheap out and buy a furnace with a PSC fan motor when
the time comes to change the furnace
ransley
You keep omitting the most important reason for getting one, comfort.
It will in low speed remove near 50% more moisture. You can at low
speed run it to dehumidify with out cooling much. Great on those 70f
days when its 75 inside and real humid. it can be run by Humidistat,
just what alot of areas near water need often. Or to even out heat or
Ac in a poorly ducted house. You dont like them so dont buy one.
Home Guy
> So your saying that the "reliable life span" of the new furnaces
> is only 6 - 7 years??
What-ever they are, they're not going to last as long as the ones being
made 30 and 40 years ago - many of which are still functional even if
they've been replaced by new garbage.
> however when correctly installed, properly adjusted, and with
> correctly sized ductwork
Don't give me that "correctly installed" crap.
A furnace is a box where you connect wires and ducting and turn the
friggin thing on. It's a glorified barbeque.
Any new furnace that can't be plugged into any existing house's ductwork
and work correctly is a piece of shit.
As bad as the existing ductwork is or can be, you shouldn't have to tear
it down and re-do it just to satisfy the hyper-sensitive requirements of
a new furnace or it's delicate, wimpy ECM blower motor.
> the normal lifespan is 20 - 23 years.
Pathetic.
> You still cannot buy a new furnace today that *DOESN"T* have
> electronics controling it.
If you mean electronics *inside* it, it's that very fact that I'm
bitching about. Just because you can't buy one that doesn't have a
frakken motherboard in it doesn't mean you can't bitch and complain how
unnecessary it is to have it.
> Maybe thats why your so against the new furnaces... your got
> the cheapest POS furnace you could find,
My furnace is 36 years old and is original to the house when it was
built in 1976 which I bought 11 years ago. I have no idea where this
furnace ranked in the marketplace at the time, but obviously they made
quality stuff back then, before the industry went into the toilet in the
last 10 - 20 years.
> and now your not happy with it.
I'm very happy with it, and if I ever have to replace it, I'm going to
modify any new furnace I get by swapping it's ECM motor for a PSC one,
and remove the electronic ignition and replace it with a standing pilot,
and rip all the electronic flame and other sensors out of it, along with
the frakkin motherboard.
Home Guy
> Up here in Central Ontario when it is hot enough that you would
> want to draw in the outside air, the humidity is way too high
> to make it an acceptable alternative most days.
Down here in south-western ontario that is not usually the case.
Home Guy
> You keep omitting the most important reason for getting one,
> comfort. It will in low speed remove near 50% more moisture.
Gee, I wonder what that liquid is that runs out of a pipe coming from my
A frame above my furnace and into the floor drain beside my furnace. ?
Ever see a dehumidifier that doesn't get enough air-flow? See how much
frost accumulates on it? See how that frost doesn't melt and turn into
flowing water until you turn the unit off?
An evaporator coil that doesn't get cold enough to sweat when your
blower fan is running full speed means that you're AC unit is too small
capacity or has lost freon.
And you don't want it to get so cold that you start a frost build-up
either.
cl...@snyder.on.ca
"ON THE DAYS WHEN YOU REALLY NEED IT"
cl...@snyder.on.ca
You better start following the furnace guys around and stockpile
useable "old school" furnaces - you'll have a hell of a time modifying
the new ones to take the old parts!!
tra...@optonline.net
> "Home Guy" <H...@Guy.com> wrote in messagenews:4D023E48...@Guy.com...
I don't know what you consider "cheapest, lowest efficiency", but I'm
looking at
quotes for a Rheem 120K BTU, 95% efficient furnace that meets the govt
high
efficiency standards for the tax credit. And it has a single speed
PSC motor.
Can also get the same furnace and AC system from Trane, for $800
more.
While I don't agree with Home Guy on everything, I do agree that in
many cases
the extra cost of models with an ECM blower aren't worth it. That's
from two standpoints.
First is that those models only save on the blower electricity. And
then independent
studies have shown that you get the 40% electricity savings if the
duct work is ideal.
If it's good, you get like 25%. If it's typical it's more like 15
-20%. And if it's poor
ducting, you get 10% to -10%. So, for maybe a 15-20% savings, you
have a significantly
higher initial outlay, plus exposure to higher repair costs if the
blower motor or it's added
drive electronics fails.
I can see going with the variable ECM motor if you want to run the
blower 24/7. Or if you
highly value that it starts up quietly, can run at low speed longer to
even out heat better with
a two stage furnace on mild heating days. Or can run on slow speed
with AC to dehumidify better.
But none of those are that important to me.
>
> Maybe thats why your so against the new furnaces... your got the cheapest
> POS furnace you could find, you got what you paid for, and now your not
> happy with it.- Hide quoted text -
Home Guy
> While I don't agree with Home Guy on everything, I do agree that
> in many cases the extra cost of models with an ECM blower aren't
> worth it.
I'm guessing that it's increasingly high targets for energy efficiency
(combustion and electrical) set by gov't regulations is the reason why
we're seeing the use of ECM blower motors in consumer HVAC equipment,
just as we see the same when it comes to saftey equipment (air bags, ABS
brakes, CAFE and emissions standards) in cars. Probably the same reason
for electronic ignition vs standing pilot as well.
I can't believe that we'd see widespread use of ECM motors under true
free-market-driven conditions (ie - with no gov't efficiency mandates or
constraints).
Steve
"Home Guy" <Ho...@Guy.com> wrote in message news:4D0399DA...@Guy.com...
A lot of us don't live where they have 9 months of winter sports, and
humidity control is a huge issue. Where I am, we run A/C from March 1st
until November 1st with average summer temps of 90F with 75% to 85% RH
you can *DO* what you want, you can be as ignorant as you want....thats your
problem.
I do this for a living, and I *KNOW* first hand what the benefits of the new
systems are, and how much my customers utility bills have dropped, as well
as their comfort level increasing.
You can *TRY* to re-engineer a new furnace by taking out the electronics,
ECM motor, and electronic ignition... Just remember that as soon as you
screw with it, you have voided the warranty, as well as the UL ratings and
if you burn your house down, your insurance company will deny the claim.
Maybe you should get a job in the engineering department with the equipment
manufacturers.
The Daring Dufas
Steve, you can verify something for me because you do more of this work
than I do. I've noticed a dramatic drop in price for the ECM motors over
a period of time and I assume it's because millions of the things are
being produced now, economies of scale. I'm seeing an ECM replacement
for PSC motors offered like the Genteq EverGreen and I'm wondering if
you've converted any air handlers for customers or have considered it?
TDD
Home Guy
> I'm seeing an ECM replacement for PSC motors offered like the Genteq
> EverGreen
I think that's still made by GE
> and I'm wondering if you've converted any air handlers for
> customers or have considered it?
At least tell us what the over-the-counter (cash and carry) price is for
an ECM drop-in replacment 1/4 hp NEMA-48 1700 rpm PSC motor.
Steve
"The Daring Dufas" <the-dari...@stinky.net> wrote in message
news:ie0m4t$tcs$1...@news.eternal-september.org...
The equipment I install, already has ECM motors in it. the stuff with ECM
motors in it has a 10 year parts warranty, and the heat pumps have either a
5 year or 10 year unit replacement warranty.
I don't know why I would install an air handler with a PSC motor in it when
there is only a small difference in price for the ECM, and the PSC only has
a 5 year parts warranty, period.
Steve
"Home Guy" <Ho...@Guy.com> wrote in message news:4D03E432...@Guy.com...
They are not interchangeable.
Home Guy
>
> > I'm seeing an ECM replacement for PSC motors offered like the
> > Genteq EverGreen
> > customers or have considered it?
------------------
http://www.aosmithmotors.com/uploadedFiles/Website/Products/Distribution_HVAC-R_Motors/6850_Web_9-10.pdf
The Comfort Select FB motor is a brushless, direct current (BLDC),
permanent magnet, electronically commutated motor (ECM). The motor is
controlled by integrated electronics providing high efficiency, advanced
motor protection, and has the same performance characteristics as a PSC
motor. The Comfort Select~FB motor is designed as a direct replacement
or retrofit product for a PSC motor.
------------------
This brochure is confusing, because on the last page it lists 5
different HP sizes, while seeming to indicate the availability in only 2
HP sizes (1/2 and 1 hp) which is strange since I wouldn't think that a
residential furnace would need anything larger than 1/3 hp.
The power consumption of the 1/2 hp unit (6.3 A at 115 V) seems
excessive.
Example retail pricing:
------------------------
http://www.alpinehomeair.com/viewproduct.cfm?productID=453062575
Upgrade your furnace or air handler to a high efficiency, variable speed
blower motor without having to make complex changes to your system. The
RESCUE EcoTech™ motor drops into existing PSC (multi-speed)
induction-blower applications, without making complex wiring
modifications or changes to the system controls. Just connect the leads,
and you’re done! No 24-volt signal leads or setup required – it’s plug
and play.
With the increased efficiency and available low circulation of this
motor, you will be free to cycle air continuously without a significant
increase in utility bills. Continuous fan operation supports improved
filtration, helping to clear the air of dust and allergens – all the
while making your home more comfortable by working to reduce temperature
variations throughout the home.
The RESCUE EcoTech motor’s advanced design also features active airflow
management, which allows the motor to compensate for static pressure
changes to help maintain airflow. This means that as vents are closed or
the filter becomes full, the motor will attempt to maintain the same
airflow, helping to keep the system operating efficiently and the home
comfortable.
Standard Features
* Easy Installation - Drops into existing PSC (multi-speed) direct drive
induction-blower applications without making wiring modifications or
changes to the system controls.
* Quiet, Efficient Circulation Speed - The advanced motor design
provides a low, 600 rpm circulation speed, so you can cycle air
continuously without the noise, draft or electricity cost of a PSC
motor.
* Money Saving Efficiency - Save money on your electric bill just by
replacing the existing PSC blower motor in your furnace or air handler.
Product Specifications
Volts 115 VAC
Blower Motor Horse Power 1/2 HP
Rotational speed in revolutions per minute 1140 RPM
Number of Blower Speeds 5
Motor Warranty 2 Years
Your Price: $323.99
Emerson EcoTech Estimated Electricity Savings:
http://www.alpinehomeair.com/_viewresource.cfm?ID=2327
---------------------------
They estimate annual savings of either $38 (fan runs only during heating
or cooling) or $106 (fan runs continuously). This is for the 1/3 hp
model, based on 14 cents /kwh.
This place:
http://www.patriot-supply.com/products/showitem.cfm/196266
Also lists the 1/2 hp Emerson 5530ET motor for $323.
The Emerson 5520ET is listed as 1/3 hp by some sellers and 1/4 hp by
others. It's priced at about $300.
This is a brochure for the Fasco / Evergreen Motor:
www.fasco.com/fasco/documents/NewsletterJanuary2010.pdf
-----------------
Fasco is proud to introduce the new Evergreen motor: the world’s first
universal aftermarket Electronically Commutated Motor (ECM) specifically
designed to save energy in residential heating and cooling
applications. Like compact-fluorescent replacement bulbs now offer an
energy-saving alternative to traditional incandescent lightbulbs, the
new Evergreen motor is a new high-efficiency alternative for standard
replacement motors.
It uses proven ECM technology to save energy… and money…every time a
residential HVAC system is in use.
On average, consumers can expect to save over 25% on annual motor
operating costs – or about $60 in annual heating and cooling operation
based on 10¢/kWh. Even better, consumers can also expect to use up to
74% fewer watts with an Evergreen motor when they run their fans between
heating and
cooing cycles.
-----------------
So basically you're going to spend $300 and probably save $100 a year in
electricity if you're lucky, and probably only if you can get an actual
1/4 or 1/3 hp unit - not a 1/2 hp one.
The Daring Dufas
From looking at the information, I understand that the 1/2hp ECM motor
is the replacement for 1/3 through 1/2hp PSC motors and the 1hp ECM is
the replacement for the 3/4 through 1hp motors. The ECM motors are
adaptable according to the literature and have the programming to learn
how to operate much like an automotive engine control unit. It's very
interesting what has been done with these new motors. It reminds me of
the way switching power supplies have taken over the work once done by
less efficient shunt regulated power supplies.
TDD
Home Guy
> From looking at the information, I understand that the 1/2hp ECM
> motor is the replacement for 1/3 through 1/2hp PSC motors and the
> 1hp ECM is the replacement for the 3/4 through 1hp motors.
Would you even use a 1/2 hp ECM motor for a home furnace? You certainly
wouldn't save any money if you were replacing a 1/4 hp single-speed PSC
motor with these 1/2 hp ECM units.
> The ECM motors are adaptable according to the literature and
> have the programming to learn how to operate
How exactly do they do that?
How does a motor know how much CFM the fan is moving?
Are there pressure or flow sensors mounted in the duct work for that?
How would you use one of those replacement motors when you have an
ordinary single-speed PSC motor in a 25+ year old furnace?
Can you apply 115 vac directly to those motors to the appropriate set of
wires to make them operate - to hell with this learning crap?
I don't get this learning crap anyways. What is an ECM motor supposed
to learn? Don't you just want it to turn at a given RPM? Why all the
fuss about finessing the CFM?
If the controller can make the unit start at low RPM and then speed up,
that's great. Do it. Why worry about CFM? If the house isin't
reaching the thermostat set-point fast enough, then speed up the motor,
or turn up the burners.
To me, the feedback the motor controller should get is the difference
between actual house temperature and the thermostat set-point
temperature. The smaller that difference, the slower the motor needs to
turn and the less BTU's the furnace needs to put out. What the actual
CFM is is neither here nor there. If the occupants want to over-ride
the motor RPM to get ambient circulation, then fine, given them the
option for low and medium speed constant circulation mode based on motor
RPM - not on some sort of "learning" crap.