Re: Tossing a charged Capacitor in the Bathtub

[Bob_Villa]

On Jan 27, 10:53 am, j...@myplace.com wrote:

>
> Not that I'm planning to test this, but what would happen if a large
> capacitor, charged with 200 volts or more was tossed into a filled
> bathtub while someone was in the tub?  (By large capacitor, I dont mean
> the size, but rather, I mean a large capacity, such as 500 MF or one
> Farad or more....).
>
> I see no reason this would ever occur, but I'm just curious.
>


My assumption would be...there is no path to ground-so no one would
get electrocuted. I wouldn't try it though!

[Stormin Mormon]

AC caps don't contain any energy, when you take them out of the circuit.
They only function while the device is running.

DC cap would not contain enough energy to do much. And the power would short
terminal to terminal, not terminal to ground.

Short answer (ha ha), is not much.

Christopher A. Young
Learn more about Jesus
www.lds.org
.

<j...@myplace.com> wrote in message
news:qvk5i7l6v5islcdpu...@4ax.com...
Most people know that dropping a cord or appliance that is plugged into
an outlet into a bathtub filled with water will electrocute the person
in the tub. Yet, you can drop a low voltage item such as a flashlight
with batteries in the tub and no one will be hurt. Even a set up jumper
cables connected to a car battery would not likely do anything, or might
just tingle a little (never tried this, but I've handled plenty battery
cables while standing on wet soil in wet shoes and never felt a thing).

Not that I'm planning to test this, but what would happen if a large
capacitor, charged with 200 volts or more was tossed into a filled
bathtub while someone was in the tub? (By large capacitor, I dont mean
the size, but rather, I mean a large capacity, such as 500 MF or one
Farad or more....).

I see no reason this would ever occur, but I'm just curious.

[NOTE: This could be DC or AC]. DC capacitors are used in electronics,
while the AC type are motor start capacitors.

[Stormin Mormon]

You could write a good murder mystery about this. Like most of the MacGuyver
episodes, the science would be worthless, but the story could be fun.

Miss Marple finds the murder weapon: a charged high voltage capacitor taken
carefully from the high voltage section of an old television and...... and
the murder was shocking.

[Evan]

On Jan 27, 11:53 am, j...@myplace.com wrote:
> Most people know that dropping a cord or appliance that is plugged into
> an outlet into a bathtub filled with water will electrocute the person
> in the tub.  Yet, you can drop a low voltage item such as a flashlight
> with batteries in the tub and no one will be hurt.  Even a set up jumper
> cables connected to a car battery would not likely do anything, or might
> just tingle a little (never tried this, but I've handled plenty battery
> cables while standing on wet soil in wet shoes and never felt a thing).
>
> Not that I'm planning to test this, but what would happen if a large
> capacitor, charged with 200 volts or more was tossed into a filled
> bathtub while someone was in the tub?  (By large capacitor, I dont mean
> the size, but rather, I mean a large capacity, such as 500 MF or one
> Farad or more....).
>
> I see no reason this would ever occur, but I'm just curious.
>
> [NOTE: This could be DC or AC]. DC capacitors are used in electronics,
> while the AC type are motor start capacitors.

Maybe, just maybe, if it was a *flux capacitor* you would
be transported back in time before you asked such a silly
question...

~~ Evan

[Doug]

On Fri, 27 Jan 2012 10:53:10 -0600, j...@myplace.com wrote:

>Most people know that dropping a cord or appliance that is plugged into
>an outlet into a bathtub filled with water will electrocute the person
>in the tub. Yet, you can drop a low voltage item such as a flashlight
>with batteries in the tub and no one will be hurt. Even a set up jumper
>cables connected to a car battery would not likely do anything, or might
>just tingle a little (never tried this, but I've handled plenty battery
>cables while standing on wet soil in wet shoes and never felt a thing).
>
>Not that I'm planning to test this, but what would happen if a large
>capacitor, charged with 200 volts or more was tossed into a filled
>bathtub while someone was in the tub? (By large capacitor, I dont mean
>the size, but rather, I mean a large capacity, such as 500 MF or one
>Farad or more....).
>
>I see no reason this would ever occur, but I'm just curious.
>
>[NOTE: This could be DC or AC]. DC capacitors are used in electronics,
>while the AC type are motor start capacitors.
>

Like to live on the edge do you <grin> ??? I'd like to ask you next
to test gravity by jumping off your roof but I won't. I think I
already know the answer.

[tra...@optonline.net]

On Jan 27, 11:53 am, j...@myplace.com wrote:
> Most people know that dropping a cord or appliance that is plugged into
> an outlet into a bathtub filled with water will electrocute the person
> in the tub.

That's how it works in the movies. In reality, to be
electrocuted the person in the tub would have to be
in the path of enough of the current to kill them. That
depends on many factors. At one extreme, if the
appliance went into one end of the tub near a ground
source like perhaps the drain, while the person was
standing in the other end, not touching anything else, it's unlikely
they would be electrocuted.

On the other hand, if you're holding a grounded faucet
with one hand and trying to pick up the appliance that fell
in the tub with
the other, that's a lot more likely to produce a bad result.

As for a cap, since the current path would be from one
terminal to the other, it's unlikely enough current would
make it through anyone's body in the tub. Unless they
were grabbing the cap....

[Ralph Mowery]

"Stormin Mormon" <cayoung61***spam...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:aOAUq.95918$Is7....@news.usenetserver.com...

> AC caps don't contain any energy, when you take them out of the circuit.
> They only function while the device is running.
>
> DC cap would not contain enough energy to do much. And the power would
> short
> terminal to terminal, not terminal to ground.
>
> Short answer (ha ha), is not much.

You never have seen a capacitor big enough.
While I do not know what effect dropping one in a bathtub would do, I do
know what a big one will do to a person when touched to the skin.

Ever seen anyone shocked with the deliberator ? I have seen that several
times. The people usually come off the bed a few inches due to the muscle
contraction. That is a big capacitor charged up and then put to the skin of
a person. Charge a few thousand microfarads to around 2000 volts and touch
it. Chances are you will not live or will have body parts missing.

While many times an AC capacitor will not contain much energy, if it is
taken out of a circuit when the voltage is at its peak, it will be charged
to that voltage and will shock the fool out of you depending on the capacity
of it.

[harry]

On Jan 27, 4:53 pm, j...@myplace.com wrote:
> Most people know that dropping a cord or appliance that is plugged into
> an outlet into a bathtub filled with water will electrocute the person

> in the tub.  Yet, you can drop a low voltage item such as a flashlight
> with batteries in the tub and no one will be hurt.  Even a set up jumper
> cables connected to a car battery would not likely do anything, or might
> just tingle a little (never tried this, but I've handled plenty battery
> cables while standing on wet soil in wet shoes and never felt a thing).
>
> Not that I'm planning to test this, but what would happen if a large
> capacitor, charged with 200 volts or more was tossed into a filled
> bathtub while someone was in the tub?  (By large capacitor, I dont mean
> the size, but rather, I mean a large capacity, such as 500 MF or one
> Farad or more....).
>
> I see no reason this would ever occur, but I'm just curious.
>
> [NOTE: This could be DC or AC]. DC capacitors are used in electronics,
> while the AC type are motor start capacitors.

There are too many factors to be certain. The voltage drop appears as
a series of overlapping "rings" There is a chance they could get a
shock.

[harry]

On Jan 27, 5:00 pm, "Stormin Mormon"

<cayoung61***spambl...@hotmail.com> wrote:
> AC caps don't contain any energy, when you take them out of the circuit.
> They only function while the device is running.

Not true.

[DerbyDad03]

On Jan 27, 11:53 am, j...@myplace.com wrote:
> Most people know that dropping a cord or appliance that is plugged into
> an outlet into a bathtub filled with water will electrocute the person
> in the tub.  Yet, you can drop a low voltage item such as a flashlight
> with batteries in the tub and no one will be hurt.  Even a set up jumper
> cables connected to a car battery would not likely do anything, or might
> just tingle a little (never tried this, but I've handled plenty battery
> cables while standing on wet soil in wet shoes and never felt a thing).
>
> Not that I'm planning to test this, but what would happen if a large
> capacitor, charged with 200 volts or more was tossed into a filled
> bathtub while someone was in the tub?  (By large capacitor, I dont mean
> the size, but rather, I mean a large capacity, such as 500 MF or one
> Farad or more....).
>
> I see no reason this would ever occur, but I'm just curious.
>
> [NOTE: This could be DC or AC]. DC capacitors are used in electronics,
> while the AC type are motor start capacitors.

I don't know what will happen when you toss it in the water, but I
know what will happen when a dead man stick is used to short the
terminals of a large cap charged up to 7 or 8 KV DC.

A dead man stick is a device with a wooden handle with a hooked rod
threaded into the handle and a braided strap with a clip on the end.
It was used to both ground towers and other electrical equipment or to
pull an energized human from said equipment.

At a minimum, shoting out the cap will cause a bang and a spark that
is sure to strike fear into the hearts of most mortal men. In some
cases, it will blow 4 inches of threaded rod out of the hardwood
handle.

We used to do it quite often when I was in the Coast Guard as training/
warning exercise.

We had large oil filled caps (5F) that ran at 15 - 20 KV DC in the
LORAN transmitter buildings. We didn't want non-Transmitter Techs in
the building without one of us present. As new men would arrive at the
station, part of the orientation meeting included a demo where we
would use a Hi-Pot to charge up a cap to at least 5KV DC, turn out the
lights and then short it out with a dead man stick. One time we went a
bit overboard with the Hi-Pot and I was left holding a smoking hard
wood handle while my buddy retrieved the metal rod from across the
room. We grabbed another dead man stick and still got quite a bang out
the cap since it didn't completely discharge before blowing up the
other dead man stick.

That one even scared me!

[Bill]

<j...@myplace.com> wrote in message
> ...what would happen if a large

> capacitor, charged with 200 volts or more was tossed into a filled

> bathtub...
>

Pure water does not conduct electricity.

If minerals or chemicals in the water, the capacitor would slowly
discharge. Still a poor conductor.

If saltwater, it would discharge quickly! Better conductor.

[Art Todesco]

On 1/27/2012 11:53 AM, j...@myplace.com wrote:
> Most people know that dropping a cord or appliance that is plugged into
> an outlet into a bathtub filled with water will electrocute the person
> in the tub. Yet, you can drop a low voltage item such as a flashlight
> with batteries in the tub and no one will be hurt. Even a set up jumper
> cables connected to a car battery would not likely do anything, or might
> just tingle a little (never tried this, but I've handled plenty battery
> cables while standing on wet soil in wet shoes and never felt a thing).
>

> Not that I'm planning to test this, but what would happen if a large

> capacitor, charged with 200 volts or more was tossed into a filled

> bathtub while someone was in the tub? (By large capacitor, I dont mean
> the size, but rather, I mean a large capacity, such as 500 MF or one
> Farad or more....).
>
> I see no reason this would ever occur, but I'm just curious.
>
> [NOTE: This could be DC or AC]. DC capacitors are used in electronics,
> while the AC type are motor start capacitors.
>

AC will kill as it causes fibrillation. DC will cause 1 pulse. That
said, voltage levels, conductivity of the water will determine what will
happen. But probably because the 2 poles are so close and the capacitor
is not referenced to ground like the plugged in radio, as others said,
current will go between the 2 capacitor leads. You will, with DC from
the capacitor, produce hydrogen and oxygen bubbling off the 2 leads.

[Tony Miklos]

On 1/27/2012 12:00 PM, Stormin Mormon wrote:
> AC caps don't contain any energy, when you take them out of the circuit.

That's just plain silly. The charge it has depends on where the sine
wave was at when it's taken out of the circuit.

[Tony Miklos]

On 1/27/2012 11:53 AM, j...@myplace.com wrote:

> Most people know that dropping a cord or appliance that is plugged into
> an outlet into a bathtub filled with water will electrocute the person
> in the tub. Yet, you can drop a low voltage item such as a flashlight
> with batteries in the tub and no one will be hurt. Even a set up jumper
> cables connected to a car battery would not likely do anything, or might
> just tingle a little (never tried this, but I've handled plenty battery
> cables while standing on wet soil in wet shoes and never felt a thing).
>
> Not that I'm planning to test this, but what would happen if a large
> capacitor, charged with 200 volts or more was tossed into a filled
> bathtub while someone was in the tub? (By large capacitor, I dont mean
> the size, but rather, I mean a large capacity, such as 500 MF or one
> Farad or more....).

Well there is one hell of a difference between 500mf and 1 farad.
Although 1 Farad 5 volt caps have become quite small, one rated at 200
volts might bludgeon them to death if it hits them in the head, charged
or not.

> I see no reason this would ever occur, but I'm just curious.
>
> [NOTE: This could be DC or AC]. DC capacitors are used in electronics,
> while the AC type are motor start capacitors.

Lots of AC rated caps are used in electronics.

[Jules Richardson]

On Fri, 27 Jan 2012 09:56:12 -0800, DerbyDad03 wrote:
> We
> grabbed another dead man stick and still got quite a bang out the cap
> since it didn't completely discharge before blowing up the other dead
> man stick.

Effect of dielectric absorption, possibly? You short it briefly, it
discharges, but then a small portion of the original charge level appears
to come back moments later...

(http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dielectric_absorption)

cheers

Jules

[DerbyDad03]

On Jan 27, 2:44 pm, Jules Richardson

I am familiar with that phenomenon, although in this situation, I'm
pretty sure it was the result of a partial discharge before the
grounding rod exploded. Obviously I can't proof it, that's just my
guess, based on prior experience with these large caps.

As part of our bi-weekly transmitter maintenance, we would ground the
caps prior to removing the bus bars to get them out of the stand-by
transmitter. Before they were even lifted out of the transmitter, we
always put a shorting cable on them to stop them from charging back up
due to both dielectric absorption and the strength of the signal from
the on-air transmitter.

On the rare occasions that we forgot to do this (newbies!) or noticed
a bad ground connection, we would use a dead man stick to short them
before grabbing them. Even after a few hours, the discharge was
minimal and we might get a little bit of a pop. In the case of the
training demo, which was done in a rather neutral environment (the
mess hall, a 1/4 mile from the transmitter building and tower) the
resulting discharge was quire substantial, much higher than anything
we'd seen in "real life".

[ChrisCoaster]

On Jan 27, 11:53 am, j...@myplace.com wrote:
> Most people know that dropping a cord or appliance that is plugged into
> an outlet into a bathtub filled with water will electrocute the person
> in the tub.  Yet, you can drop a low voltage item such as a flashlight
> with batteries in the tub and no one will be hurt.  Even a set up jumper
> cables connected to a car battery would not likely do anything, or might
> just tingle a little (never tried this, but I've handled plenty battery
> cables while standing on wet soil in wet shoes and never felt a thing).
>
> Not that I'm planning to test this, but what would happen if a large
> capacitor, charged with 200 volts or more was tossed into a filled
> bathtub while someone was in the tub?  (By large capacitor, I dont mean
> the size, but rather, I mean a large capacity, such as 500 MF or one
> Farad or more....).
>

> I see no reason this would ever occur, but I'm just curious.
>
> [NOTE: This could be DC or AC]. DC capacitors are used in electronics,
> while the AC type are motor start capacitors.

____________________
Can you say HOT TUB TIME MACHINE?

=)

[micky]

On Fri, 27 Jan 2012 10:53:10 -0600, j...@myplace.com wrote:

>Most people know that dropping a cord or appliance that is plugged into
>an outlet into a bathtub filled with water will electrocute the person
>in the tub. Yet, you can drop a low voltage item such as a flashlight
>with batteries in the tub and no one will be hurt. Even a set up jumper
>cables connected to a car battery would not likely do anything, or might
>just tingle a little (never tried this, but I've handled plenty battery
>cables while standing on wet soil in wet shoes and never felt a thing).

I don't think direct current tingles.

>
>Not that I'm planning to test this, but what would happen if a large
>capacitor, charged with 200 volts or more was tossed into a filled
>bathtub while someone was in the tub? (By large capacitor, I dont mean
>the size, but rather, I mean a large capacity, such as 500 MF or one
>Farad or more....).
>
>I see no reason this would ever occur, but I'm just curious.
>
>[NOTE: This could be DC or AC]. DC capacitors are used in electronics,
>while the AC type are motor start capacitors.

I call them polarized and non-polarized.
>

[micky]

On Fri, 27 Jan 2012 12:02:19 -0500, "Stormin Mormon"
<cayoung61***spam...@hotmail.com> wrote:

>You could write a good murder mystery about this. Like most of the MacGuyver
>episodes, the science would be worthless, but the story could be fun.
>
>Miss Marple finds the murder weapon: a charged high voltage capacitor taken
>carefully from the high voltage section of an old television and...... and
>the murder was shocking.

IIRC and I do, the big and dangerous high voltage capacitor in a tv
set is the picture tube. It doesn't seem liike a practical weapon
if removed from the tv set.

[micky]

That's what I've been saying. Well, I said that if you throw a radio
or heater in the bathtub, the current will go through the drity soapy
water sononer than it will go thourhg the bathers body. What is
dangerous is catching the radio when your hand is out of the tub and
the only way to ground is through you.

I need volunteers to check this out. It pays 100 dollars per test, to
you or your heirs.

[Bob_Villa]

Maybe the Mormon will try it and will lose him forever! *L*

[JimT]

On 1/27/2012 1:15 PM, Tony Miklos wrote:
> On 1/27/2012 12:00 PM, Stormin Mormon wrote:
>> AC caps don't contain any energy, when you take them out of the circuit.
>
> That's just plain silly. The charge it has depends on where the sine
> wave was at when it's taken out of the circuit.

I think Stupid Moron should test that theory in his bathtub.

[Larry Fishel]

On Jan 27, 12:32 pm, "Ralph Mowery" <rmowery28...@earthlink.net>
wrote:

> Ever seen anyone shocked with the deliberator ?

I've never seen a deliberator cause much damage. :)

But a defibrillator works largely because the paddles/electrodes are
placed on opposite sides of the heart. Tough to do with the average
cap without attaching some cables, in which case it would probably
work better out of the tub...

[Jules Richardson]

On Fri, 27 Jan 2012 17:51:48 -0500, micky wrote:
> IIRC and I do, the big and dangerous high voltage capacitor in a tv set
> is the picture tube. It doesn't seem liike a practical weapon if
> removed from the tv set.

Hurts quite a bit if it discharges through your hand, though.

[Twayne]

In news:j4e6i7drljacbgp50...@4ax.com,
j...@myplace.com <j...@myplace.com> typed:

> I can only think of two uses.
>
> 1. Speaker filter caps (in crossovers)
> 2. Line caps which are usually very small, such as .05mf.
> They go across the power line for voltage surges and
> spikes.
>
> What are the other uses?

If you're into analog engineering designs, there are enough to write entire
books on them. Suggest you go research them; not worth trying to make up a
list.

HTH,

Twayne`

[JimT]

On 1/27/2012 5:56 PM, Larry Fishel wrote:
> On Jan 27, 12:32 pm, "Ralph Mowery"<rmowery28...@earthlink.net>
> wrote:
>
>> Ever seen anyone shocked with the deliberator ?
> I've never seen a deliberator cause much damage. :)

What about Hitler?

[Ralph Mowery]

"Larry Fishel" <ldfi...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:e65e1012-21c1-4417...@t2g2000yqk.googlegroups.com...

When used as designed, they don't normally cause any damage, because the
heart is either stopped or not pumping correctly. They are designed so they
will not discharge on a normally working heart. At least without an
override code that only the doctors are suppose to use.

Fire one off on someone that has a normal working heart and it may stop.
Large currents of DC will often just clamp the heart muscle and stop it.
When I mention large, it is relative. Much less than one amp will do it.
If inside the body, very small amounts of current will affect the heart.

While I doubt that a large capacitor just dropped in a tub will cause any
problems with the person in it, the whole point is that a large capacitor
charged to a high voltage is just as dangerous as the electricity in the
wall socket.

[Tony Miklos]

On 1/27/2012 6:54 PM, j...@myplace.com wrote:
> On Fri, 27 Jan 2012 14:25:25 -0500, Tony Miklos<Tony....@gmail.com>
> wrote:
>

> I can only think of two uses.
>
> 1. Speaker filter caps (in crossovers)
> 2. Line caps which are usually very small, such as .05mf. They go across
> the power line for voltage surges and spikes.
>
> What are the other uses?
>

Oh millions of amplifiers have signal caps, video monitors, telephones,
wireless doorbells, wireless anything...

[Stormin Mormon]

Naah, might go to see Moroni, and hear some trumpet symphonies. Him and the
heavenly chorous can be kind of pleasant evening listening.

Christopher A. Young
Learn more about Jesus
www.lds.org
.

"Bob_Villa" <pheeh...@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:c8fba7e5-375a-4169...@p12g2000yqe.googlegroups.com...

[gregz]

The most common application for a capacitor is to pass ac while blocking
dc. Sometimes a polarized cap is used to pass ac, with a bias circuit to
keep the polarized plates set. Other larger non polarized caps in the
hundreds of mf in ac line and motor application. They typically have a 600
volt rating.

Greg

[gregz]

There are polarized, back to back polarized caps used for ac, like in
speaker crossover networks and other things. Most caps used in electronics
are ac or dc, meaning non polarized, except some non polarized have mark to
indicate outer foil.
The others are polarized because they have a liquid filling to obtain high
capacity.

Dc is typically more dangerous. I still remember grabbing hold of a high
current 500 vdc source in my ham transmitter. I also remember sticking my
finger in the antenna socket of my spark gap transmitter, of a toy bus I
had when young.

My mother told me of the day I was pouring water into a lamp socket, and i
said it made a funny noise.

Greg

[HeyBub]

j...@myplace.com wrote:
> Most people know that dropping a cord or appliance that is plugged
> into an outlet into a bathtub filled with water will electrocute the
> person in the tub.

And most people would be wrong. The person in the tub would have to be
touching the toaster, or whatever, thrown in the tub. Even then, if the
internals of the appliance didn't fry, the circuit breaker would trip. At
most, if touching the device, the bather would experience maybe a
quarter-second of jolt.

[EXT]

"gregz" <ze...@comcast.net> wrote in message
news:1270614493349406845.3...@news.eternal-september.org...

I got a kick out of feeding either AC or reverse DC into a small
electrolytic capacitor. Something less than an inch long will go off like a
firecracker and the metal covering will fly across the room. In those days,
I had lots of used capacitors stripped off old electronic (nixie tube type)
calculators.

[Jim Yanik]

"Ralph Mowery" <rmower...@earthlink.net> wrote in
news:kPqdncEfkbo7Qr_S...@earthlink.com:

>
> "Stormin Mormon" <cayoung61***spam...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
> news:aOAUq.95918$Is7....@news.usenetserver.com...

>> AC caps don't contain any energy, when you take them out of the

>> circuit. They only function while the device is running.

>>
>> DC cap would not contain enough energy to do much. And the power
>> would short
>> terminal to terminal, not terminal to ground.
>>
>> Short answer (ha ha), is not much.
>

> You never have seen a capacitor big enough.
> While I do not know what effect dropping one in a bathtub would do, I
> do know what a big one will do to a person when touched to the skin.
>
> Ever seen anyone shocked with the deliberator ? I have seen that
> several times. The people usually come off the bed a few inches due
> to the muscle contraction. That is a big capacitor charged up and then
> put to the skin of a person. Charge a few thousand microfarads to
> around 2000 volts and touch it. Chances are you will not live or will
> have body parts missing.
>
> While many times an AC capacitor will not contain much energy, if it
> is taken out of a circuit when the voltage is at its peak, it will be
> charged to that voltage and will shock the fool out of you depending
> on the capacity of it.
>
>
>
>

When I was in high school electricity shop,we used to charge fractional
microFarad caps to 100's of volts and toss them to other students,and "zap"
them when they caught the cap and touched it's leads.
It was enough to cause muscle spasms.

To do real harm,it has to be many uF,to hold a considerable charge.

BTW,the HV cap in a microwave oven is only .76uF,but can hold a dangerous
charge,at 4000 volts.

--
Jim Yanik
jyanik
at
localnet
dot com

[Jim Yanik]

"Ralph Mowery" <rmower...@earthlink.net> wrote in

news:GNqdnYwe8eah377S...@earthlink.com:

>
> "Larry Fishel" <ldfi...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
> news:e65e1012-21c1-4417...@t2g2000yqk.googlegroups.com..
> . On Jan 27, 12:32 pm, "Ralph Mowery" <rmowery28...@earthlink.net>
> wrote:
>
>> Ever seen anyone shocked with the deliberator ?
>
>>>I've never seen a deliberator cause much damage. :)
>
>>>But a defibrillator works largely because the paddles/electrodes are
>>>placed on opposite sides of the heart. Tough to do with the average
>>>cap without attaching some cables, in which case it would probably
>>>work better out of the tub...
>
> When used as designed, they don't normally cause any damage, because
> the heart is either stopped or not pumping correctly. They are
> designed so they will not discharge on a normally working heart. At
> least without an override code that only the doctors are suppose to
> use.
>
> Fire one off on someone that has a normal working heart and it may
> stop. Large currents of DC will often just clamp the heart muscle and
> stop it. When I mention large, it is relative. Much less than one amp
> will do it. If inside the body, very small amounts of current will
> affect the heart.

milliamps can do it. even 100's of microamps.
BUT,you have to have enough voltage to break down skin resistance,or use
substances to lower the skin resistance. dry skin has a high resistance.
Those defib paddles are usually coated with a silver comppound.
ever notice the user rubbing the paddles together before applying them to
the patient? they are distributing the silver compound over the paddle's
surface.it also prevents skin burns.

>
> While I doubt that a large capacitor just dropped in a tub will cause
> any problems with the person in it, the whole point is that a large
> capacitor charged to a high voltage is just as dangerous as the
> electricity in the wall socket.
>
>
>

the current path for a charged cap dropped in a tub will not go through the
person. the charges that kill people travel through their extremities into
and through their torso,affecting the heart muscles. Plus their current and
duration are much higher than the caps you can generally find can store.

[Dean Hoffman]

On 1/27/12 11:03 AM, Bob_Villa wrote:
> On Jan 27, 10:53 am, j...@myplace.com wrote:
>
>>

>> Not that I'm planning to test this, but what would happen if a large
>> capacitor, charged with 200 volts or more was tossed into a filled
>> bathtub while someone was in the tub? (By large capacitor, I dont mean
>> the size, but rather, I mean a large capacity, such as 500 MF or one
>> Farad or more....).
>>
>> I see no reason this would ever occur, but I'm just curious.
>>
>
>

> My assumption would be...there is no path to ground-so no one would
> get electrocuted. I wouldn't try it though!

But the current flow doesn't have to be to ground. Think of a
flashlight. The bulb will light even with a flashlight on a
piece of non conducting material. The current flows from the negative
to the positive poles through the bulb filament. It's about the voltage
difference between two points.
Electricity doesn't flow just through the path of least resistance.
It flows through all available paths simultaneously. The amperage is
in inverse proportion to the resistance in the circuit(s). A person in
the tub could be in the circuit along with the water. The rule
is called Kirchoff's (sp?) Law if you're interested.
The EEs could explain it better probably.

[Jim Yanik]

gregz <ze...@comcast.net> wrote in
news:668359892349407781.60...@news.eternal-september.or
g:

><j...@myplace.com> wrote:
>> On Fri, 27 Jan 2012 14:25:25 -0500, Tony Miklos
>> <Tony....@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>>> On 1/27/2012 11:53 AM, j...@myplace.com wrote:
>>>> Most people know that dropping a cord or appliance that is plugged
>>>> into an outlet into a bathtub filled with water will electrocute
>>>> the person in the tub. Yet, you can drop a low voltage item such
>>>> as a flashlight with batteries in the tub and no one will be hurt.
>>>> Even a set up jumper cables connected to a car battery would not
>>>> likely do anything, or might just tingle a little (never tried
>>>> this, but I've handled plenty battery cables while standing on wet
>>>> soil in wet shoes and never felt a thing).
>>>>
>>>> Not that I'm planning to test this, but what would happen if a
>>>> large capacitor, charged with 200 volts or more was tossed into a
>>>> filled bathtub while someone was in the tub? (By large capacitor,
>>>> I dont mean the size, but rather, I mean a large capacity, such as
>>>> 500 MF or one Farad or more....).
>>>
>>> Well there is one hell of a difference between 500mf and 1 farad.

500mF (mF = millifarad)is one half of a farad.
or do you mean uf;microfarad? milliF caps are rare.

OTOH,"MF",capital M,is MegaFarad.
M = mega,m = milli,mmF = microfarads(uF) in the old notation.

>>> Although 1 Farad 5 volt caps have become quite small, one rated at
>>> 200 volts might bludgeon them to death if it hits them in the head,
>>> charged or not.
>>>
>>>
>>>> I see no reason this would ever occur, but I'm just curious.
>>>>
>>>> [NOTE: This could be DC or AC]. DC capacitors are used in
>>>> electronics, while the AC type are motor start capacitors.
>>>
>>> Lots of AC rated caps are used in electronics.

there are polarized electrtolytics(leads marked +/-) and non-polarized
caps(electrolytics are marked NP,non-electrolytic caps are not marked).
both are used in all sorts of electronics.
then there are caps that can handle higher currents,those are the sort used
in motor circuits.

>>
>> I can only think of two uses.
>>
>> 1. Speaker filter caps (in crossovers)
>> 2. Line caps which are usually very small, such as .05mf. They go
>> across the power line for voltage surges and spikes.
>>
>> What are the other uses?
>
> The most common application for a capacitor is to pass ac while
> blocking dc. Sometimes a polarized cap is used to pass ac, with a bias
> circuit to keep the polarized plates set. Other larger non polarized
> caps in the hundreds of mf in ac line and motor application. They
> typically have a 600 volt rating.
>
> Greg
>

[Doug]

On Fri, 27 Jan 2012 17:43:15 -0600, j...@myplace.com wrote:

>On Fri, 27 Jan 2012 11:19:16 -0600, "Doug" <noemail...@msn.com>
>wrote:
>
>>
>>
>>Like to live on the edge do you <grin> ??? I'd like to ask you next
>>to test gravity by jumping off your roof but I won't. I think I
>>already know the answer.
>
>I already know that answer. Last year I stepped off the roof onto an
>aluminum ladder and the ladder buckled and I went with it. The doctor
>in the ER said I was lucky to land on my ass. Nothing was broke but I
>sure had a sore ass for awhile, along with the middle of my back that
>first hit a lawn chair. The chair did not survive, it was crushed.
>
>I'll never own another aluminum ladder!!!!
>


Altho we don't know each other, you know I was just joking. On a
serious note, just glad you are okay and now I wished I didn't make
that roof joke. In your case, maybe it wasn't so funny. Sorry.

[cl...@snyder.on.ca]

On Fri, 27 Jan 2012 10:53:10 -0600, j...@myplace.com wrote:

>Most people know that dropping a cord or appliance that is plugged into
>an outlet into a bathtub filled with water will electrocute the person
>in the tub. Yet, you can drop a low voltage item such as a flashlight
>with batteries in the tub and no one will be hurt. Even a set up jumper
>cables connected to a car battery would not likely do anything, or might
>just tingle a little (never tried this, but I've handled plenty battery
>cables while standing on wet soil in wet shoes and never felt a thing).
>
>Not that I'm planning to test this, but what would happen if a large
>capacitor, charged with 200 volts or more was tossed into a filled
>bathtub while someone was in the tub? (By large capacitor, I dont mean
>the size, but rather, I mean a large capacity, such as 500 MF or one
>Farad or more....).
>

>I see no reason this would ever occur, but I'm just curious.
>
>[NOTE: This could be DC or AC]. DC capacitors are used in electronics,
>while the AC type are motor start capacitors.
>

The capacitor would be shorted and unless it actually touched the
person in a tub, no harm would be done.

As for AC and DC, they ALL charge with DC, and DC only.

[cl...@snyder.on.ca]

On Fri, 27 Jan 2012 10:09:02 -0800, "Bill"
<billnoma...@yahoo.com> wrote:

><j...@myplace.com> wrote in message
>> ...what would happen if a large

>> capacitor, charged with 200 volts or more was tossed into a filled

>> bathtub...
>>
>
>Pure water does not conduct electricity.

You are going to bet your life on that untruth / half truth.

Pure water containing no ions is an excellent insulator, but not even
"deionized" water is completely free of ions. Water undergoes
auto-ionization in the liquid state. Further, because water is such a
good solvent, it almost always has some solute dissolved in it, most
frequently a salt. If water has even a tiny amount of such an
impurity, then it can conduct electricity readily, as impurities such
as salt separate into free ions in aqueous solution by which an
electric current can flow
>
>If minerals or chemicals in the water, the capacitor would slowly
>discharge. Still a poor conductor.
>
>If saltwater, it would discharge quickly! Better conductor.

[hr(bob) hofmann@att.net]

On Jan 27, 5:43 pm, j...@myplace.com wrote:
> On Fri, 27 Jan 2012 11:19:16 -0600, "Doug" <noemailaddr...@msn.com>

> wrote:
>
>
>
> >Like to live on the edge do you <grin> ???   I'd like to ask you next
> >to test gravity by jumping off your roof but I won't.  I think I
> >already know the answer.
>
> I already know that answer.  Last year I stepped off the roof onto an
> aluminum ladder and the ladder buckled and I went with it.  The doctor
> in the ER said I was lucky to land on my ass.  Nothing was broke but I
> sure had a sore ass for awhile, along with the middle of my back that
> first hit a lawn chair.  The chair did not survive, it was crushed.
>
> I'll never own another aluminum ladder!!!!

how old was the ladder, and how much do you weigh??

[Bob_Villa]

On Jan 27, 5:54 pm, j...@myplace.com wrote:
> On Fri, 27 Jan 2012 14:25:25 -0500, Tony Miklos <Tony.Mik...@gmail.com>
> wrote:

>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> >On 1/27/2012 11:53 AM, j...@myplace.com wrote:
> >> Most people know that dropping a cord or appliance that is plugged into
> >> an outlet into a bathtub filled with water will electrocute the person
> >> in the tub.  Yet, you can drop a low voltage item such as a flashlight
> >> with batteries in the tub and no one will be hurt.  Even a set up jumper
> >> cables connected to a car battery would not likely do anything, or might
> >> just tingle a little (never tried this, but I've handled plenty battery
> >> cables while standing on wet soil in wet shoes and never felt a thing).
>

> >> Not that I'm planning to test this, but what would happen if a large

> >> capacitor, charged with 200 volts or more was tossed into a filled

> >> bathtub while someone was in the tub?  (By large capacitor, I dont mean
> >> the size, but rather, I mean a large capacity, such as 500 MF or one
> >> Farad or more....).
>

> >Well there is one hell of a difference between 500mf and 1 farad.

> >Although 1 Farad 5 volt caps have become quite small, one rated at 200
> >volts might bludgeon them to death if it hits them in the head, charged
> >or not.
>

> >> I see no reason this would ever occur, but I'm just curious.
>
> >> [NOTE: This could be DC or AC]. DC capacitors are used in electronics,
> >> while the AC type are motor start capacitors.
>

> >Lots of AC rated caps are used in electronics.
>

> I can only think of two uses.
>
> 1. Speaker filter caps (in crossovers)
> 2. Line caps which are usually very small, such as .05mf. They go across
> the power line for voltage surges and spikes.
>
> What are the other uses?

In manufacturing where many large inductors (motors) are used, the
electric grid has to use huge capacitors to put the current back in
phase.

[micky]

Wow! Color tv or black and white?.

[micky]

On Fri, 27 Jan 2012 23:57:04 +0000 (UTC), Jules Richardson
<jules.richa...@gmail.com> wrote:

I wonder how God thought to make us feel the pain of electricity when
we didn't even have electricity when we evolved.

[JimT]

When I was a kid in the 3rd grade I was fixing our old b/w console
unplugged. I thought it would be safe. I discharged a capacitor and it
gave me quite a shock through the rivets in the kitchen knife I was
"fixing" the TV with. If you completed the circuit through both of your
arms it could easily cause cardiac arrest (where the one hand in back
pocket idea comes from). I learned my lesson. Always discharge capacitors!

this always cracks me up

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1lozkT1zrIU

I love the sound the amp makes zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzt! LOL

[harry]

On Jan 27, 11:48 pm, j...@myplace.com wrote:
> On Fri, 27 Jan 2012 09:56:12 -0800 (PST), DerbyDad03
>
>
>
>
>
> <teamarr...@eznet.net> wrote:

> >On Jan 27, 11:53 am, j...@myplace.com wrote:
> >> Most people know that dropping a cord or appliance that is plugged into
> >> an outlet into a bathtub filled with water will electrocute the person
> >> in the tub.  Yet, you can drop a low voltage item such as a flashlight
> >> with batteries in the tub and no one will be hurt.  Even a set up jumper
> >> cables connected to a car battery would not likely do anything, or might
> >> just tingle a little (never tried this, but I've handled plenty battery
> >> cables while standing on wet soil in wet shoes and never felt a thing).
>
> >> Not that I'm planning to test this, but what would happen if a large
> >> capacitor, charged with 200 volts or more was tossed into a filled
> >> bathtub while someone was in the tub?  (By large capacitor, I dont mean
> >> the size, but rather, I mean a large capacity, such as 500 MF or one
> >> Farad or more....).
>

> >> I see no reason this would ever occur, but I'm just curious.
>
> >> [NOTE: This could be DC or AC]. DC capacitors are used in electronics,
> >> while the AC type are motor start capacitors.
>

> >I don't know what will happen when you toss it in the water, but I
> >know what will happen when a dead man stick is used to short the
> >terminals of a large cap charged up to 7 or 8 KV DC.
>
> >A dead man stick is a device with a wooden handle with a hooked rod
> >threaded into the handle and a braided strap with a clip on the end.
> >It was used to both ground towers and other electrical equipment or to
> >pull an energized human from said equipment.
>
> >At a minimum, shoting out the cap will cause a bang and a spark that
> >is sure to strike fear into the hearts of most mortal men. In some
> >cases, it will blow 4 inches of threaded rod out of the hardwood
> >handle.
>
> >We used to do it quite often when I was in the Coast Guard as training/
> >warning exercise.
>
> >We had large oil filled caps (5F) that ran at 15 - 20 KV DC in the
> >LORAN transmitter buildings. We didn't want non-Transmitter Techs in
> >the building without one of us present. As new men would arrive at the
> >station, part of the orientation meeting included a demo where we
> >would use a Hi-Pot to charge up a cap to at least 5KV DC, turn out the
> >lights and then short it out with a dead man stick. One time we went a
> >bit overboard with the Hi-Pot and I was left holding a smoking hard
> >wood handle while my buddy retrieved the metal rod from across the
> >room. We grabbed another dead man stick and still got quite a bang out
> >the cap since it didn't completely discharge before blowing up the
> >other dead man stick.
>
> >That one even scared me!
>
> Damn, I never knew they even made caps that big.  What was the actual
> size of that thing? (roughly).  Or is there a photo on the web?
>
> That sounds like quite a charge to see (literally) lol..- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -

They make capacitors big enough to run electric vehicles off these
days.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Super_capacitor

[harry]

> phase.- Hide quoted text -

>
> - Show quoted text -

There's probably a power factor correction capacitor in your
traditional fluoresecent light.

[harry]

> What are the other uses?- Hide quoted text -

>
> - Show quoted text -

Electrolytic capacitors are/were widely usedfor smoothing DC after
rectifiers.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electrolytic_capacitor

[harry]

On Jan 28, 6:24 am, micky <NONONOmis...@bigfoot.com> wrote:
> On Fri, 27 Jan 2012 23:57:04 +0000 (UTC), Jules Richardson
>

> <jules.richardsonnews...@gmail.com> wrote:
> >On Fri, 27 Jan 2012 17:51:48 -0500, micky wrote:
> >> IIRC and I do, the big and dangerous high voltage capacitor in a tv set
> >> is the picture tube.   It  doesn't seem liike a practical weapon if
> >> removed from the tv set.
>
> >Hurts quite a bit if it discharges through your hand, though.
>
> I wonder how God thought to make us feel the pain of electricity when
> we didn't even have electricity when we evolved.

Tch.
Your nervous system works with electricity.
There is electricity everywhere.

[JimT]

You should stick your tongue in an outlet.

[AaronJ]

On Sat, 28 Jan 2012 01:23:30 -0500, micky <NONONO...@bigfoot.com>

wrote:

>On Fri, 27 Jan 2012 23:57:04 +0000 (UTC), Jules Richardson
><jules.richa...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>>On Fri, 27 Jan 2012 17:51:48 -0500, micky wrote:
>>> IIRC and I do, the big and dangerous high voltage capacitor in a tv set
>>> is the picture tube. It doesn't seem liike a practical weapon if
>>> removed from the tv set.
>>
>>Hurts quite a bit if it discharges through your hand, though.
>
>Wow! Color tv or black and white?.

Color had higher picture tube anode voltages but B&W was bad enough.
When you got zapped it really woke you up, but worse was losing some
skin off your arm when it involuntarily jerked backward and scraped
against those jagged metal chassis and cabinet parts. When changing
tubes or doing other work inside the TV you tried to stay away from
that picture tube wire but invariably it got you. Even with the TV set
turned off it could zap you if you forgot to discharge the picture
tube with a screwdriver to the chassis. These fond memories from work
as a TV tech in the late 50s, the golden years... ;)

[The Daring Dufas]

On 1/28/2012 1:13 AM, harry wrote:

Isn't it more electrochemical? If your nervous system was purely
electrical, you would have incredibly fast reflexes. ^_^

TDD

[micky]

On Fri, 27 Jan 2012 17:53:02 -0600, JimT <jth...@toast.net> wrote:

>On 1/27/2012 1:15 PM, Tony Miklos wrote:

>> On 1/27/2012 12:00 PM, Stormin Mormon wrote:
>>> AC caps don't contain any energy, when you take them out of the circuit.
>>

>> That's just plain silly. The charge it has depends on where the sine
>> wave was at when it's taken out of the circuit.
>
>
>I think Stupid Moron should test that theory in his bathtub.

I myself only have a DC bathtub.

[micky]

On Fri, 27 Jan 2012 23:13:35 -0800 (PST), harry <harol...@aol.com>
wrote:

>On Jan 28, 6:24 am, micky <NONONOmis...@bigfoot.com> wrote:
>> On Fri, 27 Jan 2012 23:57:04 +0000 (UTC), Jules Richardson
>>
>> <jules.richardsonnews...@gmail.com> wrote:
>> >On Fri, 27 Jan 2012 17:51:48 -0500, micky wrote:
>> >> IIRC and I do, the big and dangerous high voltage capacitor in a tv set
>> >> is the picture tube.   It  doesn't seem liike a practical weapon if
>> >> removed from the tv set.
>>
>> >Hurts quite a bit if it discharges through your hand, though.
>>
>> I wonder how God thought to make us feel the pain of electricity when
>> we didn't even have electricity when we evolved.

I meant electricity beyond the tiny amounts in our bodies.

>Tch.
>Your nervous system works with electricity.
>There is electricity everywhere.

But you can't feel the pain from your own electricity. I wonder why
He made us feel pain from 110 volts. He probably knew we'd have
that some day, but it means until 150 years ago, we could feel pain
from it even t hough there wasn't any.

I'm not countring lightning.I don't think people avoid lightning for
the same reasons.

[micky]

On Sat, 28 Jan 2012 01:24:04 -0600, The Daring Dufas
<the-dari...@stinky.net> wrote:

>On 1/28/2012 1:13 AM, harry wrote:
>> On Jan 28, 6:24 am, micky<NONONOmis...@bigfoot.com> wrote:
>>> On Fri, 27 Jan 2012 23:57:04 +0000 (UTC), Jules Richardson
>>>
>>> <jules.richardsonnews...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>> On Fri, 27 Jan 2012 17:51:48 -0500, micky wrote:
>>>>> IIRC and I do, the big and dangerous high voltage capacitor in a tv set
>>>>> is the picture tube. It doesn't seem liike a practical weapon if
>>>>> removed from the tv set.
>>>
>>>> Hurts quite a bit if it discharges through your hand, though.
>>>
>>> I wonder how God thought to make us feel the pain of electricity when
>>> we didn't even have electricity when we evolved.
>>
>> Tch.
>> Your nervous system works with electricity.
>> There is electricity everywhere.
>
>Isn't it more electrochemical?

Some places maybe, but Idon't think the nerves from your brain to your
knew use electrochemistry. If they did, you'd have incredibly slow
reflexes.

>If your nervous system was purely
>electrical, you would have incredibly fast reflexes. ^_^

Thjat's the speed of electricity in copper. Might it not be much
slower in neurons?

In your brain you can reach conclusions in much less than a second.
You can compute baseball trajectories in les than a second. You can
have entire drieams even with a little plat in the time it takes your
chin to reach your chest.

>TDD

[micky]

On Fri, 27 Jan 2012 17:43:15 -0600, j...@myplace.com wrote:

>On Fri, 27 Jan 2012 11:19:16 -0600, "Doug" <noemail...@msn.com>

>wrote:
>
>>
>>
>>Like to live on the edge do you <grin> ??? I'd like to ask you next
>>to test gravity by jumping off your roof but I won't. I think I
>>already know the answer.
>
>I already know that answer. Last year I stepped off the roof onto an
>aluminum ladder and the ladder buckled and I went with it. The doctor

Were you over its rating? Or near it?

>in the ER said I was lucky to land on my ass. Nothing was broke but I
>sure had a sore ass for awhile, along with the middle of my back that
>first hit a lawn chair. The chair did not survive, it was crushed.
>
>I'll never own another aluminum ladder!!!!

But be sure not to buy wrought iron lawn furniture.


Doug, lots of possible reasons he did not answer, but I don't think
your wise crack was offensive. No one thought you meant for him to
hurt himself.

[The Daring Dufas]

Could it be because the human brain works like a massive parallel
processor? O_o

TDD

[micky]

On Fri, 27 Jan 2012 15:56:12 -0800 (PST), Larry Fishel
<ldfi...@yahoo.com> wrote:

>On Jan 27, 12:32 pm, "Ralph Mowery" <rmowery28...@earthlink.net>
>wrote:
>
>> Ever seen anyone shocked with the deliberator ?
>
>I've never seen a deliberator cause much damage. :)

What about George W. Bush? Didn't he say he was the deliberator.

[Tony Miklos]

On 1/27/2012 9:11 PM, EXT wrote:
>
> "gregz" <ze...@comcast.net> wrote in message
> news:1270614493349406845.3...@news.eternal-september.org...
>
>> micky <NONONO...@bigfoot.com> wrote:

>>> On Fri, 27 Jan 2012 10:53:10 -0600, j...@myplace.com wrote:
>>>
>>>> Most people know that dropping a cord or appliance that is plugged into
>>>> an outlet into a bathtub filled with water will electrocute the person
>>>> in the tub. Yet, you can drop a low voltage item such as a flashlight
>>>> with batteries in the tub and no one will be hurt. Even a set up jumper
>>>> cables connected to a car battery would not likely do anything, or
>>>> might
>>>> just tingle a little (never tried this, but I've handled plenty battery
>>>> cables while standing on wet soil in wet shoes and never felt a thing).
>>>

>>> I don't think direct current tingles.

>>>>
>>>> Not that I'm planning to test this, but what would happen if a large
>>>> capacitor, charged with 200 volts or more was tossed into a filled
>>>> bathtub while someone was in the tub? (By large capacitor, I dont mean
>>>> the size, but rather, I mean a large capacity, such as 500 MF or one
>>>> Farad or more....).
>>>>

>>>> I see no reason this would ever occur, but I'm just curious.
>>>>
>>>> [NOTE: This could be DC or AC]. DC capacitors are used in electronics,
>>>> while the AC type are motor start capacitors.
>>>

>>> I call them polarized and non-polarized.
>>>>
>>
>> There are polarized, back to back polarized caps used for ac, like in
>> speaker crossover networks and other things. Most caps used in
>> electronics
>> are ac or dc, meaning non polarized, except some non polarized have
>> mark to
>> indicate outer foil.
>> The others are polarized because they have a liquid filling to obtain
>> high
>> capacity.
>>
>> Dc is typically more dangerous. I still remember grabbing hold of a high
>> current 500 vdc source in my ham transmitter. I also remember sticking my
>> finger in the antenna socket of my spark gap transmitter, of a toy bus I
>> had when young.
>>
>> My mother told me of the day I was pouring water into a lamp socket,
>> and i
>> said it made a funny noise.
>>
>> Greg
>
> I got a kick out of feeding either AC or reverse DC into a small
> electrolytic capacitor. Something less than an inch long will go off
> like a firecracker and the metal covering will fly across the room. In
> those days, I had lots of used capacitors stripped off old electronic
> (nixie tube type) calculators.

Reminds me of the time I brought the little kid out of my boss. I had
him hooking up small electrolytic caps to 120VAC via an extension cord
and out a door. We kept increasing the size and it didn't take too long
before they didn't explode, they just tripped the 20amp breaker. Never
forget when he told me "what ever you do, don't tell my wife!".

[Bob_Villa]

On Jan 28, 4:08 am, j...@myplace.com wrote:
> On Fri, 27 Jan 2012 20:14:39 -0800 (PST), Bob_Villa

>
> <pheeh.z...@gmail.com> wrote:
> >In manufacturing where many large inductors (motors) are used, the
> >electric grid has to use huge capacitors to put the current back in
> >phase.
>

> I have noticed some things on power poles that look like pole
> transformers without any secondaries and they are smaller.  The HV line
> just enters and exists then midway to a farm or industrial complex.
> Maybe those are the caps.  I never understood their purpose.
>
> Besides industry, large farms have lots of power hungry motors.  I just
> operate a small farm, but even I have hay elevators and augers and other
> devices with fairly large 110 or 220 volt motors.
>
> Also, in reply to others speaking in electronics terms I am familiar
> with non polarized as well as electrolytic caps.  I worked on a lot of
> electronics when I was a kid.  Mostly tube stuff back then, and back
> then, mf meant micro-farad, and mmf meant miro-micro-farad.  Oddly
> enough they were also called condensors in those days.  I still fart
> around with a few home repairs of electronic stuff, but these days
> finding parts is a challenge, if not impossible.  Especially ICs.  That
> takes the fun out of it.

Power grid capacitor bank: http://www.dreamstime.com/royalty-free-stock-photos-capacitor-bank-image685808

[Jules Richardson]

It was a color - I thought I'd discharged it, but either the discharge
wire wasn't making contact properly, or it was the dielectric absorption
effect I mentioned in another post, but it still gave me a pretty nice
zap when I later touched it.

I grew up in England and had a few 240V shocks in my youth when messing
around with stuff, and they just tingle. This was a lot more painful, and
my whole arm hurt for a couple of hours after.

cheers

Jules

[bud--]

On 1/28/2012 4:08 AM, j...@myplace.com wrote:
>
> I have noticed some things on power poles that look like pole
> transformers without any secondaries and they are smaller. The HV line
> just enters and exists then midway to a farm or industrial complex.
> Maybe those are the caps. I never understood their purpose.
>

If they are wired in series on the distribution wiring they are
sectionalizers.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sectionalizer
is a not-great description.

They take the place of a fuse, and are always downstream from a
recloser. Reclosers are also wired in series, but are much larger.

PF correction caps are wired phase-to-phase.

--
bud--

[Tony Miklos]

On 1/28/2012 5:14 AM, j...@myplace.com wrote:

> On Fri, 27 Jan 2012 22:40:50 -0500, cl...@snyder.on.ca wrote:
>
>>> [NOTE: This could be DC or AC]. DC capacitors are used in electronics,
>>> while the AC type are motor start capacitors.
>>>

>> The capacitor would be shorted and unless it actually touched the
>> person in a tub, no harm would be done.
>>
>> As for AC and DC, they ALL charge with DC, and DC only.
>
> As much as I worked on electronics as a kid, I never know if an AC cap
> (motor starting cap) would hold a charge. If nothing else, this thread
> answered that it dont.
>

Well you got some bad info.

[Mark Lloyd]

On 01/28/2012 02:46 AM, The Daring Dufas wrote:

[snip]

>
> Could it be because the human brain works like a massive parallel
> processor? O_o
>
> TDD

And (at least much of it) is analog too. It's much more efficient at
common things.

--
Mark Lloyd
http://notstupid.us

"I give money for church organs in the hope that the organ music will
distract the congregation's attention from the rest of the service." --
Andrew Carnegie

[Ralph Mowery]

<j...@myplace.com> wrote in message
news:8gi7i71d4rr6cajrn...@4ax.com...

> On Fri, 27 Jan 2012 22:40:50 -0500, cl...@snyder.on.ca wrote:
>
>>>[NOTE: This could be DC or AC]. DC capacitors are used in electronics,
>>>while the AC type are motor start capacitors.
>>>
>>The capacitor would be shorted and unless it actually touched the
>>person in a tub, no harm would be done.
>>
>>As for AC and DC, they ALL charge with DC, and DC only.
>
> As much as I worked on electronics as a kid, I never know if an AC cap
> (motor starting cap) would hold a charge. If nothing else, this thread
> answered that it dont.
>
>

While you might say they charge with DC only, a capacitor will charge on an
AC circuit. It depends on where in the cycle the capacitor is removed. It
can be charged anywhere from 0 to the maximum peak line voltage. It is
being charged and discharged 120 times a second for standard house current
in the USA. Half the time one plate will be positive with respect to the
other and half it will be negative.

When saying AC or DC capacitors, that is very misleading. The polarized and
nonpolarized is more correct.

Connect and disconnect a motor starting capacitor enough times and it will
have a charge stored in it during one of the times.

[Jules Richardson]

On Fri, 27 Jan 2012 21:11:33 -0500, EXT wrote:
> I got a kick out of feeding either AC or reverse DC into a small
> electrolytic capacitor. Something less than an inch long will go off
> like a firecracker and the metal covering will fly across the room.

Heh, we used to do that too at school in the electronics lab - 240VAC
would make them go bang quite nicely.

> In
> those days, I had lots of used capacitors stripped off old electronic
> (nixie tube type) calculators.

I love Nixie stuff. I had a big old calculator (IME 86) with a Nixie
display for a while, but didn't keep it when I move to the US (decided it
was too heavy to ship). Hopefully at some point I'll find something
similar this side of the Atlantic!

I did pull some Nixies from some old grain analysis equipment, which will
probably end up as a clock display one day (possibly one based on neon
tube logic)

cheers

Jules

[Robert Green]

"HeyBub" <hey...@NOSPAMgmail.com> wrote in message
news:w9ydnc3Z7tS4x77S...@earthlink.com...

> j...@myplace.com wrote:
> > Most people know that dropping a cord or appliance that is plugged
> > into an outlet into a bathtub filled with water will electrocute the
> > person in the tub.
>

> And most people would be wrong. The person in the tub would have to be
> touching the toaster, or whatever, thrown in the tub. Even then, if the
> internals of the appliance didn't fry, the circuit breaker would trip. At
> most, if touching the device, the bather would experience maybe a
> quarter-second of jolt.

Completely and utterly wrong, HeyBub. Here's why:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MythBusters_(2004_season)#Appliances_in_the_Bath

<<Appliances in the Bath

One can be killed by dropping an electrical appliance into a bath full of
water.

Confirmed!

The electrocution effect is increased if the appliance drops farther from
the drain or if the water has more salt in it (such as due to urine or epsom
salts). They also proved that devices (and probably by extension, sockets)
with GFCIs are effective at preventing these electrocutions, as a
GFCI-equipped hairdryer cut off on contact with the water.>>

The only reason that more people don't die is:

http://www.cpsc.gov/cpscpub/pubs/success/dryers.html

<<In the early 1980's there was an average of 18 electrocutions each year
involving hand-held hair dryers. Most of these deaths occurred when the hair
dryer fell, or was pulled, into a bathtub of water. From 1990 through 1992,
there was an average of only four electrocutions a year associated with hair
care equipment. How did this decrease, from an average of 18 deaths a year
to an average of 4 deaths a year, come about?

In October 1987, hair dryers were required to provide protection against
electrocutions when the product was immersed in water with the switch off.
Research by CPSC staff of the behavior of small children led to further CPSC
recommendations to UL that protection be required in both the "on" and "off"
positions. This requirement became effective on January 1, 1991.>>

There were 18 confirmed deaths, but hundreds more non-lethal yet severe
shocks. Contrary to popular belief, bathtub electrocutions occur without
people touching external objects while in the tub. Your entire body is
connected to the home's ground/neutral wire through the tub and there's no
better way to get skin to conduct electricity than to moisten it. You've
seen them sponge people's heads before the skull electrode is lowered on the
electric chair. Same reason.

It doesn't take very high current levels to kill by electrocution, again
contrary to popular belief. All it takes is enough current applied exactly
the right way to interrupt the heartbeat. In fact, there's a certain low
current "sweet spot" that is far more lethal than much higher currents
because of the "muscle clamping" effect of the heart.

People seem to be hung up on the "path of least resistance" line of
thinking, and that's dangerous. The current will take *every* possible path
with the amount of current being limited by the resistance along that path.
I don't know why so many people seem to believe that direct physical contact
to a "hot" wire is necessary in a tub or pool.

Current can follow many paths simultaneously. IIRC, it only requires 100 mA
of AC current to cause an electrocution death. For a 10 amp source, that
means only 1% of the current needs to flow through your body. The other 99%
can flow through another, lower resistance path. That one percent can, and
has, killed people. That's the reason GFCI's are now required in every
bathroom and around pools. Lots of people died.

Ironically, water's low conductivity turns out to make bathtub
electrocutions possible because its low enough to prevent blowing a fuse but
high enough to allow enough current to pass to cause electrocution. That's
the precise reason GFCI's were created. To deal with situations where a
fuse didn't blow yet the circuit was able to provide a lethal amount of
current.

http://www.physics.ohio-state.edu/~p616/safety/fatal_current.html says:

"skin resistance may vary from 1000 ohms for wet skin to over 500,000 ohms
for dry skin."

Ironically, low currents can be more lethal than higher ones because of how
the heart muscle reacts. The "Fatal Current" site goes on to say:

<<As shown in the chart, shock is relatively more severe as the current
rises. For currents above 10 milliamps, muscular contractions are so strong
that the victim cannot let go of the wire that is shocking him. At values as
low as 20 milliamps, breathing becomes labored, finally ceasing completely
even at values below 75 milliamps.

As the current approaches 100 milliamps, ventricular fibrillation of the
heart occurs - an uncoordinated twitching of the walls of the heart's
ventricles which results in death.

Above 200 milliamps, the muscular contractions are so severe that the heart
is forcibly clamped during the shock. This clamping protects the heart from
going into ventricular fibrillation, and the victim's chances for survival
are good.>>

--
Bobby G.

[HeyBub]

Okay, I stand corrected. Thanks for the new information.

[EXT]

"Jules Richardson" <jules.richa...@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:jg1knf$8p8$2...@dont-email.me...

Yeah, I've still got an old nixie calculator that I use in my workshop. It
is big and heavy enough that it doesn't get lost, and it works no matter how
much sawdust accumulates on it. Believe it or not, it was made by Sony. Some
of the display tubes are getting a little weak.

[Robert Green]

"HeyBub" <hey...@NOSPAMgmail.com> wrote in message

> Robert Green wrote:

<stuff snipped>

> > Above 200 milliamps, the muscular contractions are so severe that the
> > heart is forcibly clamped during the shock. This clamping protects
> > the heart from going into ventricular fibrillation, and the victim's
> > chances for survival are good.>>
>
> Okay, I stand corrected. Thanks for the new information.

Where's your fight, man! (-

Seriously, not many people know of the absolutely bizarre factoid that low
amounts of electricity can kill you whereas higher currents "lock up the
heart" and prevent it from fibrillation. It's almost like saying one
gunshot will kill you but four will protect you. Very counterintuitive.

I also forget to mention that there's usually enough salt on people's skin
that it acts as an electrolyte in the tub and it takes very little salt to
greatly increase the conductivity. Throw in some bath salts if you want to
make really good contact.

What's really ironic is the number of prison executions that go wrong, even
using high voltage, high current and good wet skin electrodes. I believe
that's when I first heard of the "heart clamp" issue when perfectly dead
convicts came back to life when their hearts unclamped. That disturbed
enough wardens (and cruel and unusual punishment "watchmen") that they
studied the problem and discovered the effect.

Sometimes it's just luck because many people have survive heater and hair
dryer tub immersions. Overall, I'd say enough people have died in tubs and
pools that the electrical safety industry felt they had to act and the GFCI
was their response. The last space heater I bought had a GFCI on the end of
the cord so it is getting harder to do a "James Bond" and kill someone with
a heater in the tub. IIRC that was as long ago as "Goldfinger" when I bet
you could kill someone that way rather easily.

--
Bobby G.

[micky]

On Sat, 28 Jan 2012 15:31:15 +0000 (UTC), Jules Richardson

<jules.richa...@gmail.com> wrote:

>On Sat, 28 Jan 2012 01:23:30 -0500, micky wrote:
>
>> On Fri, 27 Jan 2012 23:57:04 +0000 (UTC), Jules Richardson
>> <jules.richa...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>>>On Fri, 27 Jan 2012 17:51:48 -0500, micky wrote:
>>>> IIRC and I do, the big and dangerous high voltage capacitor in a tv
>>>> set is the picture tube. It doesn't seem liike a practical weapon
>>>> if removed from the tv set.
>>>
>>>Hurts quite a bit if it discharges through your hand, though.
>>
>> Wow! Color tv or black and white?.
>
>It was a color - I thought I'd discharged it, but either the discharge
>wire wasn't making contact properly, or it was the dielectric absorption
>effect I mentioned in another post, but it still gave me a pretty nice
>zap when I later touched it.
>
>I grew up in England and had a few 240V shocks in my youth when messing
>around with stuff, and they just tingle. This was a lot more painful, and
>my whole arm hurt for a couple of hours after.

Wow.

I've had 110, but never 240. 240 has scared me more but if they
didn't kill you, maybe I'll relax.

But I did touch something in a tv once, not the high votage, not the
picture tube, but higher than I'd had before. I'm thinking it was
the boost, 1000 or 2000.

I was crouched or on my knees and without thinking, I jumped all the
way back to the other side of the room, and my shoulder was
dislocated. something that haden't happend for over 10 years.

After that, it dislocated a lot, 4 times in one week, and I had to
have the surgery I had postponed for 15 years. 30 years later,
hasn't come out again.
>
>cheers
>
>Jules

[JimT]

On 1/28/2012 9:02 PM, micky wrote:
> On Sat, 28 Jan 2012 15:31:15 +0000 (UTC), Jules Richardson
> <jules.richa...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> On Sat, 28 Jan 2012 01:23:30 -0500, micky wrote:
>>
>>> On Fri, 27 Jan 2012 23:57:04 +0000 (UTC), Jules Richardson
>>> <jules.richa...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>
>>>> On Fri, 27 Jan 2012 17:51:48 -0500, micky wrote:
>>>>> IIRC and I do, the big and dangerous high voltage capacitor in a tv
>>>>> set is the picture tube. It doesn't seem liike a practical weapon
>>>>> if removed from the tv set.
>>>> Hurts quite a bit if it discharges through your hand, though.
>>> Wow! Color tv or black and white?.
>> It was a color - I thought I'd discharged it, but either the discharge
>> wire wasn't making contact properly, or it was the dielectric absorption
>> effect I mentioned in another post, but it still gave me a pretty nice
>> zap when I later touched it.
>>
>> I grew up in England and had a few 240V shocks in my youth when messing
>> around with stuff, and they just tingle. This was a lot more painful, and
>> my whole arm hurt for a couple of hours after.
> Wow.
>
> I've had 110, but never 240. 240 has scared me more but if they
> didn't kill you, maybe I'll relax.

It depends on the amps. But I'm not going to test that.

[JimT]

On 1/28/2012 4:51 AM, j...@myplace.com wrote:
> On Sat, 28 Jan 2012 00:33:16 -0600, JimT<jth...@toast.net> wrote:

>
>> On 1/27/2012 5:57 PM, Jules Richardson wrote:
>>> On Fri, 27 Jan 2012 17:51:48 -0500, micky wrote:
>>>> IIRC and I do, the big and dangerous high voltage capacitor in a tv set
>>>> is the picture tube. It doesn't seem liike a practical weapon if
>>>> removed from the tv set.
>>> Hurts quite a bit if it discharges through your hand, though.

>> When I was a kid in the 3rd grade I was fixing our old b/w console
>> unplugged. I thought it would be safe. I discharged a capacitor and it
>> gave me quite a shock through the rivets in the kitchen knife I was
>> "fixing" the TV with. If you completed the circuit through both of your
>> arms it could easily cause cardiac arrest (where the one hand in back
>> pocket idea comes from). I learned my lesson. Always discharge capacitors!
>>
>> this always cracks me up
>>
>> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1lozkT1zrIU
>>
>> I love the sound the amp makes zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzt! LOL
>>
>>
> That is pretty funny. Actually he probably felt nothing. He touched an
> input, the body picks up a lot of things especially the 60hz AC around
> him. That is what you hear. If you have a guitar cord plugged into an
> amp, and grab the tip if the plug on the guitar end, it will make that
> same sound. That amp volume was up pretty high too.
>
> You can do the same with a home stereo using a cord plugged into an AUX,
> TAPE, or PHONO input, touch the end of the cord (you wont get a shock).
> (Phono inputs do this the best, they have an extra stage of
> amplification..... of course most modern amps probably dont have a phono
> input anymore).
>
>

You might be right. He was smiling afterward. The timing is classic. The
sound is what hurts.

It sounds like a 60 cycle hum but then why is he talking about discharging?

[bob haller]

my best friend bill is a retired electrical engineer.

as to the cap in the bathtub, he said since the easiest path would be
close to the 2 terminals, so the victims shock would be minimal. he
went on to say the entire tub would have a voltage gradient. similar
to a lightning strike but of course far less.

on the GFCI question my buddy uses one as a backup water tank overflow
shutdown.

You would get a minor shock but non lethal.......

[k...@att.bizzzzzzzzzzzz]

On Sat, 28 Jan 2012 22:02:04 -0500, micky <NONONO...@bigfoot.com> wrote:

>On Sat, 28 Jan 2012 15:31:15 +0000 (UTC), Jules Richardson
><jules.richa...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>>On Sat, 28 Jan 2012 01:23:30 -0500, micky wrote:
>>
>>> On Fri, 27 Jan 2012 23:57:04 +0000 (UTC), Jules Richardson
>>> <jules.richa...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>
>>>>On Fri, 27 Jan 2012 17:51:48 -0500, micky wrote:
>>>>> IIRC and I do, the big and dangerous high voltage capacitor in a tv
>>>>> set is the picture tube. It doesn't seem liike a practical weapon
>>>>> if removed from the tv set.
>>>>
>>>>Hurts quite a bit if it discharges through your hand, though.
>>>
>>> Wow! Color tv or black and white?.
>>
>>It was a color - I thought I'd discharged it, but either the discharge
>>wire wasn't making contact properly, or it was the dielectric absorption
>>effect I mentioned in another post, but it still gave me a pretty nice
>>zap when I later touched it.
>>
>>I grew up in England and had a few 240V shocks in my youth when messing
>>around with stuff, and they just tingle. This was a lot more painful, and
>>my whole arm hurt for a couple of hours after.
>
>Wow.

I've had a few 750VDC shocks. Ouch!

>I've had 110, but never 240. 240 has scared me more but if they
>didn't kill you, maybe I'll relax.

In the US, 240V is just two 120V circuits. It's pretty hard to get yourself
across both at once.

[Bob_Villa]

On Jan 28, 11:19 pm, "k...@att.bizzzzzzzzzzzz"

<k...@att.bizzzzzzzzzzzz> wrote:

>
> In the US, 240V is just two 120V circuits.  It's pretty hard to get yourself
> across both at once.
>

Most residential circuits in the US are 220/110...110 being the center-
tap of your utilities transformer. Things in the home such as, heat
registers, clothes dryers, water heaters...tend to be 220 volts.

[tra...@optonline.net]

His valid point was that it's very difficult to wind up with
240V involving your body. You'd have to be in the path
of BOTH hots, which is fairly hard to do. Even if you're
working on a 240V outlet that is energized or say a
water heater, it's not likely you're going to grab one hot
with one hand, the other hot with the other hand. That
is what you'd have to do to get 240V. Typical would be
to grab one hot
while being grounded, in which case you'g be exposed
to 120V. Same thing if one hot shorts to metal in say
an ungrounded appliance. The case will be hot, but
only at 120V.

[Bob_Villa]

On Jan 29, 7:52 am, "trad...@optonline.net" <trad...@optonline.net>
wrote:

Understood.

[k...@att.bizzzzzzzzzzzz]

On Sun, 29 Jan 2012 04:55:08 -0800 (PST), Bob_Villa <pheeh...@gmail.com>
wrote:

No, they're 240V and as I said, it's really two 120V circuits; very hard to
get across both (accidentally).

[Bob_Villa]

On Jan 29, 11:48 am, "k...@att.bizzzzzzzzzzzz"
<k...@att.bizzzzzzzzzzzz> wrote:
> On Sun, 29 Jan 2012 04:55:08 -0800 (PST), Bob_Villa <pheeh.z...@gmail.com>

Actually, it's closer to 115/230.

[dpb]

On 1/29/2012 12:33 PM, Bob_Villa wrote:
...

> Actually, it's closer to 115/230.

Actually... :)

ANSI Standard C84.1 specifies that the nominal voltage at the source
should be 120 V and allow a range of 114 to 126 V (−5% to +5% Range A).
Service Range B has wider tolerances.

Nameplate voltages are lower to recognize voltage drop from service to
application point. IIRC, 115 is the corresponding value in current the
Standard.

Historically 110, 115 and 117 volts have been used at different times
and places in North America.

--

[JIMMIE]

On Jan 27, 11:53 am, j...@myplace.com wrote:
> Most people know that dropping a cord or appliance that is plugged into
> an outlet into a bathtub filled with water will electrocute the person

> in the tub.  Yet, you can drop a low voltage item such as a flashlight
> with batteries in the tub and no one will be hurt.  Even a set up jumper
> cables connected to a car battery would not likely do anything, or might
> just tingle a little (never tried this, but I've handled plenty battery
> cables while standing on wet soil in wet shoes and never felt a thing).
>
> Not that I'm planning to test this, but what would happen if a large
> capacitor, charged with 200 volts or more was tossed into a filled
> bathtub while someone was in the tub?  (By large capacitor, I dont mean
> the size, but rather, I mean a large capacity, such as 500 MF or one
> Farad or more....).
>
> I see no reason this would ever occur, but I'm just curious.

>
> [NOTE: This could be DC or AC]. DC capacitors are used in electronics,
> while the AC type are motor start capacitors.

Depends on how conductive the water is. Unless you are in a tub of
distilled water it will discharge. The more conductive the water the
faster.

Jimmie

[k...@att.bizzzzzzzzzzzz]

On Sun, 29 Jan 2012 10:33:19 -0800 (PST), Bob_Villa <pheeh...@gmail.com>
wrote:

No.

[Bob_Villa]

On Jan 29, 6:00 pm, "k...@att.bizzzzzzzzzzzz"
<k...@att.bizzzzzzzzzzzz> wrote:
> On Sun, 29 Jan 2012 10:33:19 -0800 (PST), Bob_Villa <pheeh.z...@gmail.com>

Ok, I checked for myself 125 here in WI. Sorry.

[gregz]

In my experience I see more like 120-125 or up to 250 vac.

Greg

[k...@att.bizzzzzzzzzzzz]

On Sun, 29 Jan 2012 16:42:53 -0800 (PST), Bob_Villa <pheeh...@gmail.com>
wrote:

The nominal spec is 120/240.

[k...@att.bizzzzzzzzzzzz]

They sell more electricity. ;-)

[TimR]

On Jan 28, 3:13 pm, "Robert Green" <robert_green1...@yah00.com> wrote:

> <<In the early 1980's there was an average of 18 electrocutions each year
> involving hand-held hair dryers. Most of these deaths occurred when the hair
> dryer fell, or was pulled, into a bathtub of water. From 1990 through 1992,
> there was an average of only four electrocutions a year associated with hair
> care equipment. How did this decrease, from an average of 18 deaths a year
> to an average of 4 deaths a year, come about?

Early 80's? That's around the time a good friend of ours died from a
hair dryer in the tub, maybe as late a 1986. The breaker didn't trip,
and of course that was before widespread use of GFCIs.

The body is basically a sack of salt water. It probably conducts
better than the bathwater. I'm sure the plumbing as well as the
fixtures was metallic. I don't know what would happen today when both
drain and supply lines are likely to be plastic.

[Robert Green]

"TimR" <timot...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:845c5649-088d-4287...@k6g2000vbz.googlegroups.com...

On Jan 28, 3:13 pm, "Robert Green" <robert_green1...@yah00.com> wrote:

> <<In the early 1980's there was an average of 18 electrocutions each year
> involving hand-held hair dryers. Most of these deaths occurred when the
hair
> dryer fell, or was pulled, into a bathtub of water. From 1990 through
1992,
> there was an average of only four electrocutions a year associated with
hair
> care equipment. How did this decrease, from an average of 18 deaths a year
> to an average of 4 deaths a year, come about?

<<Early 80's? That's around the time a good friend of ours died from a
hair dryer in the tub, maybe as late a 1986. The breaker didn't trip,
and of course that was before widespread use of GFCIs.>>

It's too bad that your friend had their accident before GFCI. Every time I
have one "nuisance trip" on me I think about how I'd rather deal with a few
false activation than NOT have it function when I needed it most.

<<The body is basically a sack of salt water. It probably conducts
better than the bathwater. I'm sure the plumbing as well as the
fixtures was metallic. I don't know what would happen today when both
drain and supply lines are likely to be plastic.>>

I hadn't thought about that, but it's clear that there's still a lot of work
being done to make electricity safer. Space heaters and hair dryers, in
addition to having built in GFCIs are also likely to be made of plastic.
It's been 30 years since I've seen a metal hairdryer. In my old house,
there's plenty of copper and cast iron to conduct electrical current. )-:

--
Bobby G.