Three-way switch with on/off indicator
Jan Philips
tells you whether the circuit is on or not?
I checked a couple of stores online, and there are lighted three-way
switches, but they don't say that they are the type I need.
The reason is that there are two three-way switches on an outside
light, and you can't see the outside light from one of the switches so
you don't know whether it is on or off.
--
Replace you know what by j to email
mm
<youknowwha...@comcast.net> wrote:
>Are there three-way switches that have indicators (e.g. a light) that
>tells you whether the circuit is on or not?
>
>I checked a couple of stores online, and there are lighted three-way
>switches, but they don't say that they are the type I need.
Please give urls for the ones you found.
What's the difference between the type you need and other types?
bud--
There are 3-2ay switches that indicate if the circuit is off. Most of
them are probably this type. (They probably have a neon light between
the "traveler" terminals.)
I believe there are also 3-ways that indicate if the circuit is on. They
may require a neutral connection to the switch (which is not always
available at a switch box).
--
bud--
k...@att.bizzzzzzzzzzzz
<youknowwha...@comcast.net> wrote:
I've seen lighted 3-way and 4-way switches. The lights are on when the
circuit is off (open), which is also the norm for lighted single-pole
switches. What "type" do you need?
Evan
wrote:
Which of the three way switches is the one where you can't see the
light from ? The supply side or the load side of the loop ?
If you are at the load side of the loop you could wire a pilot light
into
the circuit so that when the load is powered the pilot light indicates
that... If you are referring to the switch at the supply side, doing
that would require running another wire from the load connection
back to the switch box on the supply side of the loop for the
pilot light to work properly...
Most every lighted switch I have seen is illuminated when the
circuit is off to make the switch visible in low light conditions
so a person could find the switch easier and turn on the lights...
Usually circuit status in the way you are looking for is
accomplished using a pilot light switch with an indicator
built in or wiring in separate pilot lights...
~~ Evan
cl...@snyder.on.ca
wrote:
Lighted switches are NOT indicators. If you need a pilot on a 3 way
you are going to need to add it as an extra switched load. Absolutely
no other way around it. (other than fiber optics or a mirror mounted
on a post that you can see from the window or door where the switch
is located)
cl...@snyder.on.ca
>On Sat, 03 Jul 2010 00:22:13 -0400, Jan Philips
><youknowwha...@comcast.net> wrote:
>
>The light in the switch is usually on when the switch is off.
On a 3 way, it is generally on ALL the time, since there is no OFF
position to the switch itself.
bud--
Nope.
If you connect a neon lamp (inside the switch) between the traveler
terminals on a 3-way switch, the neon lamp will be on (for both 3-way
switches) when the load is turned off. I assume they do the same thing
on 4-way switches.
There is a little more complicated indicator lamp in 3-way (and probably
4-way) switches where the indicator is on when the load is on. Probably
requires a neutral connection to the switches.
It is not rocket science - they are readily available.
--
bud--
Michael
Somewhat OT. I have a regular switch for my outside light that lights
when the outside light is on. The curious thing is that my
electrician put it in using existing wiring and there is no neutral in
the box. The house is 70 years old and there are only 2 wires in the
box and the box is not grounded.. How is that possible?
RBM
"Jan Philips" <youknowwha...@comcast.net> wrote in message
news:hiet26tec5v2jnopt...@4ax.com...
Pilot light switches are lit when the circuit is on, and illuminated
switches are lit when the circuit is off. They make 3 way pilot light
switches, but you'd need to check how the circuit is wired to determine if
one will work in the desired location. Here is a link to one type of pilot
light 3 way:
http://www.kyledesigns.com/product/PS15AC3-CPL/3-Way-Clear-Pilot-Lighted-Toggle-Switch---Lighted-When-ON.html?meta=GBASE&metacpg=PS15AC3-CPL&utm_source=gbase&utm_medium=CPC&utm_content=&utm_campaign=PS15AC3-CPL
Gordon Shumway
<michael....@gmail.com> wrote:
>Somewhat OT. I have a regular switch for my outside light that lights
>when the outside light is on. The curious thing is that my
>electrician put it in using existing wiring and there is no neutral in
>the box. The house is 70 years old and there are only 2 wires in the
>box and the box is not grounded.. How is that possible?
If there are only two wires in that box one wire is hot and one wire
is common. You have no ground in that box. That's the way houses
were wired 70 years ago.
cl...@snyder.on.ca
<michael....@gmail.com> wrote:
a neop indicator will light without a "real" ground
Nate Nagel
or one wire is hot and one is a switch leg, which IMHO is more common.
nate
--
replace "roosters" with "cox" to reply.
http://members.cox.net/njnagel
k...@att.bizzzzzzzzzzzz
If the circuit is open (light off), the traveler opposite of the position the
switch is in will be energized (or grounded, and the common energized). An
indicator from the switch common to this traveler will be lit.
DD_BobK
Bub is correct about the 3 way set up.
I happen to have two 3-way light switches; one at the top of the
stairs & one at the bottom.
BOTH are lit when the controlled light is OFF,
BOTH are unlit when the controlled light is ON
IIRC neither switch had a neutral connection, just the typical three
screw terminals that a regular 3-way switch has.
Yes, the light in the switch toggle is not meant to be an indicator
lamp but all the lighted switches I've installed seem to provide that
side benefit.
My real intent was to help navigation through a dark house at night
and reduce dirty finger / hand prints around light switches.....seems
to help.
I have no practical experience with light switches in 4 way circuits.
cheers
Bob
DD_BobK
wrote:
Jan-
Based on my experince installing light 3 ways at the bottom & top of
the stairs......
Both are lit when the controlled light is off
both are unlit when the controlled light is on
These were just regular old lighted 3-ways from Home Depot (Leviton
5503-LHW)
Available in lots of place; prices range from $10 to $20
I would suggested just getting one and install it in the location
desired.
cheers
Bob
mm
<evan.ne...@earthlink.net> wrote:
>On Jul 3, 12:22 am, Jan Philips <youknowwhat.mccra...@comcast.net>
>wrote:
>> Are there three-way switches that have indicators (e.g. a light) that
>> tells you whether the circuit is on or not?
>>
>> I checked a couple of stores online, and there are lighted three-way
>> switches, but they don't say that they are the type I need.
>>
>> The reason is that there are two three-way switches on an outside
>> light, and you can't see the outside light from one of the switches so
>> you don't know whether it is on or off.
>> --
>> Replace you know what by j to email
>
>
>Which of the three way switches is the one where you can't see the
>light from ? The supply side or the load side of the loop ?
>
>If you are at the load side of the loop you could wire a pilot light
>into
>the circuit so that when the load is powered the pilot light indicates
>that... If you are referring to the switch at the supply side, doing
>that would require running another wire from the load connection
>back to the switch box on the supply side of the loop for the
>pilot light to work properly...
This sounds about right. (Unless some clever designer has come up with
something we don't know about.)
>
>Most every lighted switch I have seen is illuminated when the
>circuit is off to make the switch visible in low light conditions
>so a person could find the switch easier and turn on the lights...
And also because it's easier to do that way. The neon light can be put
in parallel with the switch. When the switch is on, the voltage
across the switch is zero or very close to it***, and there is little
or no voltage to light the neon light. When the switch is off, the
votage across the switch is 110AC and that's what the neon light is
designed for**, and the current through the neon light will flow
though the light the switch controls, but it's so little that light
won't light.
**including its own resistor to lower the 110 to what is needed.
***Could they ever include a small resistor of some sort, to make a 5
volt drop to power the neon light. I tried to do something like that
when I wanted my home burglar alarm to turn on my hall light. The
option on the alarm panel made that simple. But then I wanted it to
turn on the kitchen light, which had a switch with a built-in clock to
turn it on and off. If I used the alarm panel to supply 117 volts to
the load side of the timer switch, that meant zero volts across the
timer, and it reset itself, resetting the time and forgetting the
time/on/off settings. So I put in a resistor to lower the voltage
supplied by the alarm panel to about 112, hoping 5 volts would be
enough to keep the timer powered. I don't remember if it worked or
not, but if it didnt't, I was going to increase the volts to 10 and
see if that worked. Hmmm. I think it didn't work and I turned my
attention to the dining room light, that was easy to do. Eventually
the alarm panel failed and I haven't hooked this all up for the new
one yet.
mm
wrote:
Either way, his question was how does the light switch light when the
outside light is on?
Clare mentions a neon light, but they light when the outside light is
off.
I can't answer Michael's question. Maybe someone can.
J Burns
How about a PR2 flashlight bulb: 500ma at 2.38V. In series with a 60W
load, it would take 2% of the power.
To avoid exposing the flashlight bulb to the starting surge, you could
bypass it with a thermistor having a positive temperature coefficient.
If the load drew more current than the indicator bulb, you could bypass
the indicator bulb with a resistor. In that case, a thermistor with a
negative temperature coefficient in series with the bulb (but not the
resistor) would protect it from starting surges.
Another approach might be to use a step-up transformer with a low
primary impedance in series with the load to provide voltage for a neon
indicator across its secondary.
Jan Philips
wrote:
>It is not rocket science - they are readily available.
The switches with the indicators are readily available? Do you know
where?
mm
Sure enough. At the very end of a long list of features it says
"Grounding terminal is standard." but it doesnt' say a ground is
required for the light to go on. And it doesn't say you don't need
one either. And it doesn't say antyying about how the circuit must be
wired. I woudln't know whether to buy this one or not. OTOH, it says
flat out "Lighted when switch is ON." Would they say that if it
depended on the circuit? I hope not.
Jan Philips
>The light in the switch is usually on when the switch is off.
That will work.
Jan Philips
<evan.ne...@earthlink.net> wrote:
>Which of the three way switches is the one where you can't see the
>light from ? The supply side or the load side of the loop ?
I don't know about that. One of the switches is near the light, the
other isn't. The one far away is the one that needs the indicator.
>If you are at the load side of the loop you could wire a pilot light
>into
>the circuit so that when the load is powered the pilot light indicates
>that...
I think I can replace a switch if that is all I have to do. Beyond
that, I don't think I can do it.
>Most every lighted switch I have seen is illuminated when the
>circuit is off to make the switch visible in low light conditions
>so a person could find the switch easier and turn on the lights...
That makes sense and that will do the job.
Jan Philips
>Pilot light switches are lit when the circuit is on, and illuminated
>switches are lit when the circuit is off. They make 3 way pilot light
>switches, but you'd need to check how the circuit is wired to determine if
>one will work in the desired location. Here is a link to one type of pilot
>light 3 way:
>http://www.kyledesigns.com/product/PS15AC3-CPL/3-Way-Clear-Pilot-Lighted-Toggle-Switch---Lighted-When-ON.html?meta=GBASE&metacpg=PS15AC3-CPL&utm_source=gbase&utm_medium=CPC&utm_content=&utm_campaign=PS15AC3-CPL
That looks what I need - not cheap though.
Jan Philips
wrote:
>Based on my experince installing light 3 ways at the bottom & top of
>the stairs......
>
>Both are lit when the controlled light is off
>both are unlit when the controlled light is on
>
>These were just regular old lighted 3-ways from Home Depot (Leviton
>5503-LHW)
That is one of the places I looked online. The website said that they
were illuminated, but it didn't tell if it went off when the circuit
was on.
hal...@aol.com
wrote:
> On Sat, 3 Jul 2010 07:41:31 -0400, "RBM" <r...@live.com> wrote:
> >Pilot light switches are lit when the circuit is on, and illuminated
> >switches are lit when the circuit is off. They make 3 way pilot light
> >switches, but you'd need to check how the circuit is wired to determine if
> >one will work in the desired location. Here is a link to one type of pilot
> >light 3 way:
>
> That looks what I need - not cheap though.
> --
> Replace you know what by j to email
well you could put a transfomer on the lightbulb side and run low
voltage indicator lights wherever you want
k...@att.bizzzzzzzzzzzz
>On Sat, 03 Jul 2010 09:51:24 -0400, Nate Nagel <njn...@roosters.net>
>wrote:
>
>>On 07/03/2010 08:12 AM, Gordon Shumway wrote:
>>> On Sat, 3 Jul 2010 01:35:13 -0700 (PDT), Michael
>>> <michael....@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>
>>>> Somewhat OT. I have a regular switch for my outside light that lights
>>>> when the outside light is on. The curious thing is that my
>>>> electrician put it in using existing wiring and there is no neutral in
>>>> the box. The house is 70 years old and there are only 2 wires in the
>>>> box and the box is not grounded.. How is that possible?
>>>
>>> If there are only two wires in that box one wire is hot and one wire
>>> is common. You have no ground in that box. That's the way houses
>>> were wired 70 years ago.
>>
>>or one wire is hot and one is a switch leg, which IMHO is more common.
>>
>>nate
>
>Either way, his question was how does the light switch light when the
>outside light is on?
No, the OP's question was:
"Are there three-way switches that have indicators (e.g. a light)
that tells you whether the circuit is on or not?"
>
>Clare mentions a neon light, but they light when the outside light is
>off.
It still "tells you whether the circuit is on or not". The neon is lit when
"not".
>I can't answer Michael's question. Maybe someone can.
Maybe if you read the question as asked...
J Burns
> On Sat, 03 Jul 2010 13:52:24 -0400, mm <NOPSAM...@bigfoot.com> wrote:
>
>> On Sat, 03 Jul 2010 09:51:24 -0400, Nate Nagel <njn...@roosters.net>
>> wrote:
>>
>>> On 07/03/2010 08:12 AM, Gordon Shumway wrote:
>>>> On Sat, 3 Jul 2010 01:35:13 -0700 (PDT), Michael
>>>> <michael....@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> Somewhat OT. I have a regular switch for my outside light that lights
>>>>> when the outside light is on. The curious thing is that my
>>>>> electrician put it in using existing wiring and there is no neutral in
>>>>> the box. The house is 70 years old and there are only 2 wires in the
>>>>> box and the box is not grounded.. How is that possible?
>>>> If there are only two wires in that box one wire is hot and one wire
>>>> is common. You have no ground in that box. That's the way houses
>>>> were wired 70 years ago.
>>> or one wire is hot and one is a switch leg, which IMHO is more common.
>>>
>>> nate
>> Either way, his question was how does the light switch light when the
>> outside light is on?
>
> No, the OP's question was:
>
> "Are there three-way switches that have indicators (e.g. a light)
> that tells you whether the circuit is on or not?"
>
The Daring Dufas
There are light switches that have a separate light. They fit a duplex
outlet plate and I believe the switches are available in three way.
http://www.acehardwareoutlet.com/ProductDetails.aspx?SKU=3212933
TDD
k...@att.bizzzzzzzzzzzz
Because I'm getting lost in references?
Jan Philips
wrote:
>These were just regular old lighted 3-ways from Home Depot (Leviton
>5503-LHW)
I got one of those from Hope Depot. For this application I'd rather
have ON/ON and OFF/OFF, but this was $6 vs. $40 for the other type
that I saw.
Thanks to everyone.
cl...@snyder.on.ca
wrote:
>On Sat, 03 Jul 2010 09:51:24 -0400, Nate Nagel <njn...@roosters.net>
Used to have a neon pilot mounted on the switch plate of the basement
light switch in the old farm house. It was a PILOT light - on when the
basement light was on. Big flickery old neon bulb - NE0010 if I
remember correctly.
Didn't flicker nearly as much on 60hz as on the old 25Hz from the
Niagara Adam Beck #1 station.
cl...@snyder.on.ca
wrote:
You missed the last line on the spec sheet -"Strap nickel-plated
steel with integral ground. "
The ground is required for the pilot to work.
Wire it as a standard 3 way and you should be fine - I was not aware
Pass & Seymour was marketing them - not a common hardware
store/big-box item - and not even on the shelf at our local electrical
supply houses.
cl...@snyder.on.ca
"if you want first quality oats, you need to be willing to pay first
quality price. Oats that's already been through the horse come a bit
cheaper"
cl...@snyder.on.ca
The neon light I was talking about lighted with the light on - but I
was under the impression it required a separate dedicated neutral.
Apparently just a ground is legal.
cl...@snyder.on.ca
Cooper Wiring Devices 294LA-BOX Three Way Switch & Red Neon Pilot
Light
mm
>On Sat, 03 Jul 2010 13:52:24 -0400, mm <NOPSAM...@bigfoot.com> wrote:
>
>>On Sat, 03 Jul 2010 09:51:24 -0400, Nate Nagel <njn...@roosters.net>
>>wrote:
>>
>>>On 07/03/2010 08:12 AM, Gordon Shumway wrote:
>>>> On Sat, 3 Jul 2010 01:35:13 -0700 (PDT), Michael
>>>> <michael....@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> Somewhat OT. I have a regular switch for my outside light that lights
>>>>> when the outside light is on. The curious thing is that my
>>>>> electrician put it in using existing wiring and there is no neutral in
>>>>> the box. The house is 70 years old and there are only 2 wires in the
>>>>> box and the box is not grounded.. How is that possible?
>>>>
>>>> If there are only two wires in that box one wire is hot and one wire
>>>> is common. You have no ground in that box. That's the way houses
>>>> were wired 70 years ago.
>>>
>>>or one wire is hot and one is a switch leg, which IMHO is more common.
>>>
>>>nate
>>
>>Either way, his question was how does the light switch light when the
>>outside light is on?
>
>No, the OP's question was:
>
> "Are there three-way switches that have indicators (e.g. a light)
> that tells you whether the circuit is on or not?"
Not the OP's question. Michael's question, which was all that Gordon
quoted.
>>Clare mentions a neon light, but they light when the outside light is
>>off.
>
>It still "tells you whether the circuit is on or not". The neon is lit when
>"not".
But that's not relevant to Michael's question.
>>I can't answer Michael's question. Maybe someone can.
>
>Maybe if you read the question as asked...
Sarcasm!
mm
<the-dari...@peckerhead.net> wrote:
But isn't this two separate things on one strap and it's up to the
user to make sure it works the way he wants it to?
Three Way Switch & Red Neon Pilot Light No promises. No statement
that the neon light goes on when the circuit is on.
>
Break off provision for wiring on same circuit or separate circuits
>TDD
k...@att.bizzzzzzzzzzzz
That's as I understand it too, as long as it's in the leakage range.
<...>
bud--
As RBM wrote "Pilot light switches are lit when the circuit is on, and
illuminated switches are lit when the circuit is off." Both of these
have the light in the handle of the switch (not a separate pilot light).
"Illuminated switches" are easy - as I said before you connect a neon
lamp between the traveler terminals If you work out the circuit, this is
the same as connecting a neon lamp across a single-pole switch.
"Pilot light switches" from Leviton require a neutral connection - I
believe that is true for all of them. They don't use a ground
connection. The circuit for one that I saw had resistors from each
traveler terminal to a common point. A neon lamp connected from that
point to a neutral.
Both of these use current through the load to light the neon lamp. If a
light bulb is burned out they will not work. They may or may not work
with fluorescents (CFLs).
-------------------------
All switch straps that are metal these days have a ground screw. If the
switch is not installed in a metal box you have to ground the strap. The
strap is grounded so any metal plate - present or future - will be grounded.
--
bud--
k...@att.bizzzzzzzzzzzz
YEs, but Claire was talking about a pilot light (on when the circuit was on).
This does require some sort of return.
>"Illuminated switches" are easy - as I said before you connect a neon
>lamp between the traveler terminals If you work out the circuit, this is
>the same as connecting a neon lamp across a single-pole switch.
Yes, I mentioned the same thing, up there a while. I'm not seeing how this
works for 4-way, though. I remember having illuminated 4-ways in my parent's
house.
>"Pilot light switches" from Leviton require a neutral connection - I
>believe that is true for all of them. They don't use a ground
>connection. The circuit for one that I saw had resistors from each
>traveler terminal to a common point. A neon lamp connected from that
>point to a neutral.
That's the discussion. ISTR, and maybe it's changed now (GFCIs throw a wrench
in here), that some "leakage" current to ground was allowed for this purpose.
>Both of these use current through the load to light the neon lamp. If a
>light bulb is burned out they will not work. They may or may not work
>with fluorescents (CFLs).
Good point. They do work with the old-style inductive ballast fluorescents,
however. We had a house full of them. Another reason to shun CFLs. ;-)
>-------------------------
>All switch straps that are metal these days have a ground screw. If the
>switch is not installed in a metal box you have to ground the strap. The
>strap is grounded so any metal plate - present or future - will be grounded.
Assuming there is a ground in the box, of course.
J Burns
As quoted above, Michael says his switch box is not grounded and has
only two wires. He says the indicator light is on when the outdoor
light is on. With only a hot wire and a load wire, how would you
connect your neon indicator light to come on when the outdoor light came on?
bud--
Maybe someone can find a 'pilot light' switch without a neutral
connection. The only ones I saw had a neutral (and I believe they all do).
>
>> "Illuminated switches" are easy - as I said before you connect a neon
>> lamp between the traveler terminals If you work out the circuit, this is
>> the same as connecting a neon lamp across a single-pole switch.
>
> Yes, I mentioned the same thing, up there a while. I'm not seeing how this
> works for 4-way, though. I remember having illuminated 4-ways in my parent's
> house.
A 4-way has the 2 travelers traveling through the switch and swaps them,
or not, as they go through. Both kinds of 3 way switch handle light also
work on a 4-way if you connect to either of the traveler terminals.
>
>> "Pilot light switches" from Leviton require a neutral connection - I
>> believe that is true for all of them. They don't use a ground
>> connection. The circuit for one that I saw had resistors from each
>> traveler terminal to a common point. A neon lamp connected from that
>> point to a neutral.
>
> That's the discussion. ISTR, and maybe it's changed now (GFCIs throw a wrench
> in here), that some "leakage" current to ground was allowed for this purpose.
Find a pilot light switch that does not have a neutral connection. The
ones I found did (so there is no ground leakage). (Manufacturers don't
seem to want to tell you if there is a neutral connection or not -
important piece of information if you are going to be using one of these.)
>
>> Both of these use current through the load to light the neon lamp. If a
>> light bulb is burned out they will not work. They may or may not work
>> with fluorescents (CFLs).
>
> Good point. They do work with the old-style inductive ballast fluorescents,
> however. We had a house full of them. Another reason to shun CFLs. ;-)
>
>> -------------------------
>> All switch straps that are metal these days have a ground screw. If the
>> switch is not installed in a metal box you have to ground the strap. The
>> strap is grounded so any metal plate - present or future - will be grounded.
>
> Assuming there is a ground in the box, of course.
If not the NEC says what to do.
--
bud--
J Burns
> As RBM wrote "Pilot light switches are lit when the circuit is on, and
> illuminated switches are lit when the circuit is off." Both of these
> have the light in the handle of the switch (not a separate pilot light).
>
> "Illuminated switches" are easy - as I said before you connect a neon
> lamp between the traveler terminals If you work out the circuit, this is
> the same as connecting a neon lamp across a single-pole switch.
>
> "Pilot light switches" from Leviton require a neutral connection - I
> believe that is true for all of them. They don't use a ground
> connection. The circuit for one that I saw had resistors from each
> traveler terminal to a common point. A neon lamp connected from that
> point to a neutral.
>
> Both of these use current through the load to light the neon lamp. If a
> light bulb is burned out they will not work. They may or may not work
> with fluorescents (CFLs).
>
In the Leviton system you describe, suppose R is the resistance of each
resistor in the voltage divider (between travelers). Suppose I is the
current of the neon indicator.
If the load bulb is burned out, the voltage divider will be between hot
and open regardless of switch positions. Voltage across the indicator
should be 120-IR. I would expect the indicator to glow.
If the bulb is burning, the voltage divider will also be between hot and
open. The indicator should glow as above.
If the bulb works but is switched off, the voltage divider will be
between hot and neutral (ignoring the bulb's small resistance). The
voltage across the indicator should be 60-(IR/2). I suppose the
indicator wouldn't light.
So it appears to me that load current is required not to turn the
indicator on but to turn it off.
k...@att.bizzzzzzzzzzzz
You may be correct. Because of GFCIs, these may no longer be kosher.
>>> "Illuminated switches" are easy - as I said before you connect a neon
>>> lamp between the traveler terminals If you work out the circuit, this is
>>> the same as connecting a neon lamp across a single-pole switch.
>>
>> Yes, I mentioned the same thing, up there a while. I'm not seeing how this
>> works for 4-way, though. I remember having illuminated 4-ways in my parent's
>> house.
>
>A 4-way has the 2 travelers traveling through the switch and swaps them,
>or not, as they go through. Both kinds of 3 way switch handle light also
>work on a 4-way if you connect to either of the traveler terminals.
I don't understand your second sentence, but looking at it again, it's clear
to me that there is a neon "drop" on each traveler from the voltage at the
"off" end. A neon between travelers at each 4-way will illuminate it and
there will never be more than two neon drops in the chain (always two - or
zero, with at least one 4-way).
>>> "Pilot light switches" from Leviton require a neutral connection - I
>>> believe that is true for all of them. They don't use a ground
>>> connection. The circuit for one that I saw had resistors from each
>>> traveler terminal to a common point. A neon lamp connected from that
>>> point to a neutral.
>>
>> That's the discussion. ISTR, and maybe it's changed now (GFCIs throw a wrench
>> in here), that some "leakage" current to ground was allowed for this purpose.
>
>Find a pilot light switch that does not have a neutral connection. The
>ones I found did (so there is no ground leakage). (Manufacturers don't
>seem to want to tell you if there is a neutral connection or not -
>important piece of information if you are going to be using one of these.)
>>
>>> Both of these use current through the load to light the neon lamp. If a
>>> light bulb is burned out they will not work. They may or may not work
>>> with fluorescents (CFLs).
>>
>> Good point. They do work with the old-style inductive ballast fluorescents,
>> however. We had a house full of them. Another reason to shun CFLs. ;-)
>>
>>> -------------------------
>>> All switch straps that are metal these days have a ground screw. If the
>>> switch is not installed in a metal box you have to ground the strap. The
>>> strap is grounded so any metal plate - present or future - will be grounded.
>>
>> Assuming there is a ground in the box, of course.
>
>If not the NEC says what to do.
Certainly, in jurisdictions where the NEC applies. ;-)
The Daring Dufas
Perhaps I'm suffering from premature postification again? 8-)
TDD
bud--
> On Sun, 04 Jul 2010 12:00:44 -0500, bud-- <remove....@isp.com> wrote:
>
>> k...@att.bizzzzzzzzzzzz wrote:
>>> On Sun, 04 Jul 2010 09:53:50 -0500, bud-- <remove....@isp.com> wrote:
>
>>>> "Illuminated switches" are easy - as I said before you connect a neon
>>>> lamp between the traveler terminals If you work out the circuit, this is
>>>> the same as connecting a neon lamp across a single-pole switch.
>>> Yes, I mentioned the same thing, up there a while. I'm not seeing how this
>>> works for 4-way, though. I remember having illuminated 4-ways in my parent's
>>> house.
>> A 4-way has the 2 travelers traveling through the switch and swaps them,
>> or not, as they go through. Both kinds of 3 way switch handle light also
>> work on a 4-way if you connect to either of the traveler terminals.
>
> I don't understand your second sentence, but looking at it again, it's clear
> to me that there is a neon "drop" on each traveler from the voltage at the
> "off" end. A neon between travelers at each 4-way will illuminate it and
> there will never be more than two neon drops in the chain (always two - or
> zero, with at least one 4-way).
Apologies for over-explaining.
The travelers are the 2 wires that connect between the 3-way switches.
A 4-way switch has terminals A-B that connect to one 3-way switch and
terminals X-Y that connect to the other 3-way switch. In one position
the connections are A-X and B-Y. In the other switch position the
connections are A-Y and B-X. If you add 10 more 4-way switches, each one
just connects the travelers 'straight' through or 'swaps' them.
If either 3-way scheme is connected to terminals A-B (or terminals X-Y)
inside a 4-way switch it is the same as connecting to the traveler
terminals on the 3-way switches. If you understand how pilot/illuminated
3-ways work you understand pilot/illuminated 4-ways.
The handles on both 3-way snitches, and all 11 4-way switches, will
glow or not glow the same. All the neon lamps are connected in parallel.
--
bud--
bud--
Neon lamps are not like incandescents in that the voltage across the
lamp is essentially constant after the lamp has 'fired' (ionized the gas
and started conducting). And if the voltage is not high enough the neon
lamp will not fire on every half cycle.
60V may not be enough to 'fire' the neon lamp. Or, because the neon lamp
is at constant voltage, the drop across the resistors is much lower than
you expect and the current is relatively low - dim neon lamp
>
> So it appears to me that load current is required not to turn the
> indicator on but to turn it off.
>
Sounds eminently reasonable. I was 1/2 wrong.
If the bulb is burned out, (or maybe fluorescent), or switched
receptacle with nothing plugged in the switch won't indicate right.
--
bud--
k...@att.bizzzzzzzzzzzz
>k...@att.bizzzzzzzzzzzz wrote:
>> On Sun, 04 Jul 2010 12:00:44 -0500, bud-- <remove....@isp.com> wrote:
>>
>>> k...@att.bizzzzzzzzzzzz wrote:
>>>> On Sun, 04 Jul 2010 09:53:50 -0500, bud-- <remove....@isp.com> wrote:
>>
>>>>> "Illuminated switches" are easy - as I said before you connect a neon
>>>>> lamp between the traveler terminals If you work out the circuit, this is
>>>>> the same as connecting a neon lamp across a single-pole switch.
>>>> Yes, I mentioned the same thing, up there a while. I'm not seeing how this
>>>> works for 4-way, though. I remember having illuminated 4-ways in my parent's
>>>> house.
>>> A 4-way has the 2 travelers traveling through the switch and swaps them,
>>> or not, as they go through. Both kinds of 3 way switch handle light also
>>> work on a 4-way if you connect to either of the traveler terminals.
>>
>> I don't understand your second sentence, but looking at it again, it's clear
>> to me that there is a neon "drop" on each traveler from the voltage at the
>> "off" end. A neon between travelers at each 4-way will illuminate it and
>> there will never be more than two neon drops in the chain (always two - or
>> zero, with at least one 4-way).
>
>Apologies for over-explaining.
>
>The travelers are the 2 wires that connect between the 3-way switches.
Yes...
>A 4-way switch has terminals A-B that connect to one 3-way switch and
>terminals X-Y that connect to the other 3-way switch. In one position
>the connections are A-X and B-Y. In the other switch position the
>connections are A-Y and B-X. If you add 10 more 4-way switches, each one
>just connects the travelers 'straight' through or 'swaps' them.
Yes...
>If either 3-way scheme is connected to terminals A-B (or terminals X-Y)
>inside a 4-way switch it is the same as connecting to the traveler
>terminals on the 3-way switches. If you understand how pilot/illuminated
>3-ways work you understand pilot/illuminated 4-ways.
Um...
>The handles on both 3-way snitches, and all 11 4-way switches, will
>glow or not glow the same. All the neon lamps are connected in parallel.
Ah! Yes, I see, the 3-way neon isn't across the switch, as it is with a SPST
switch, rather across the travelers like the 4-way neon connection. <slap>
jsnc...@gmail.com
> Are there three-way switches that have indicators (e.g. a light) that
> tells you whether the circuit is on or not?
>
> switches, but they don't say that they are the type I need.
>
> The reason is that there are two three-way switches on an outside
> light, and you can't see the outside light from one of the switches so
> you don't know whether it is on or off.
> --
> Replace you know what by j to email
I could not find a 3-way switch (current sensing) that did not require a pilot light wire for installation at the feed/hot (master) switch. Easy enough at the load/slave switch, but the extra wire for a pilot light is not standardly run, so if you are doing a retrofit, the standard lit when on switches (eg Leviton 56-38-2W) won't work. I found a solution that requires a bit of tinkering, CR Magnetics (model CR 2250) uses a current sensing transformer with self powered LED. For the trigger current based on your load, just add wraps of the hot through the hole and around the transformer. drill a 1/4" hole in your cover plate, and snap in the LED. Add conductor as needed for the wraps, and wire nut to the feed. Note that the LED saturates at the trigger current, and will take up to 20 amps AC being read, so there is no problem if you set for LED current, and incandescents are later put in. This solution will work with any switch configuration (3-Way, 4-Way). For single pole, standard pilot light switches are the easy solution (eg Leviton 5628-(color)). The CR 2258 is .32" thick, and so can be fitted in the J-Box behind the switch.