Tie to attach joist to beam above it
Ed
joist. I know I could put it in flush with the joist and just use a
regular joist hanger , but I would like to put the beam on top. The
joists are 2x6s and the beam is a 4*12.
marson
This is an unusual situation--I doubt there is a piece of hardware
made specifically for this. Simpson strong tie sells heavy duty
twisted straps that would work, though i don't think they are made for
that purpose (google it). If you are dealing with a building
inspector, they might want to see it engineered.
RayV
A 'hurricane' strap would do it (the ones for connecting rafters to
top-plates), but you could probably just toenail it.
This sounds unusual, why are you putting a beam *on top* of joists?
A beam indicates it will be carrying a load so the joists would have
to be supported to carry the beam. A 2x6 joist can't even span 10' @
16"OC, nevermind carrying a beam and additional load.
http://www.awc.org/calculators/span/calc/timbercalcstyle.asp
Hope you have an architect or better an engineer involved.
spamT...@yahoo.com
> On Feb 8, 11:11 pm, "Ed" <esssm...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>
> > What tie should I use to attach joists to a beam sitting on top of the
> > joist. I know I could put it in flush with the joist and just use a
> > regular joist hanger , but I would like to put the beam on top. The
> > joists are 2x6s and the beam is a 4*12.
>
> A 'hurricane' strap would do it (the ones for connecting rafters to
> top-plates), but you could probably just toenail it.
> This sounds unusual, why are you putting a beam *on top* of joists?
>
> A beam indicates it will be carrying a load so the joists would have
> to be supported to carry the beam. A 2x6 joist can't even span 10' @
>
> Hope you have an architect or better an engineer involved.
I think he wants to hang the joists from the beam- Ed, please clarify.
Dave
tra...@optonline.net
>
> - Show quoted text -
That was my take on it too. Using normal terminology, beams support
joists, not the other way around.
lp13-30
not want to put the beam in the room, but in the attic instead, above
the rafters/joists. I have seen it done before, but never paid attention
to how it was attatched. First, I would go to the Simpson section
at HD/Lowes and check them out. They have fasteners for nearly every
imagineable use-- may find something that would work. If not, you could
get metal "L" shaped plates with a hole n both parts of them and bolt
one to the joist and one to the beam such that holes in each line up and
hook them together with all thread and nuts. Larry
Lawrence
Any local welder can fabricate brackets to your specs if you can't
find something on the shelf.
lp13-30
at the box store, see if they have a catalog there where all that stuff
is located.(They do here) Just because HD/Lowes does not have something
doesn't mean that it does not exist-- just may take some extra time and
effort to get it or special order it. Also see if Simpson has any info
on the web. Larry
Ed
removing a wall below and don't want it to show). The beam will be
supported with blocking at both ends, so the beam will still support
the joists. I looked through the simpson site and didn't see anything
that jumped out at me for this.
If I have to, I will inset it and use hangers, but that will be more
work and the 2x6s are old so they are wider then 1.5 inches, so might
not fit a regular hanger. As for the joist size, the joists are
already there and they are just in the attic over a relitivly short
span, so that shouldn't be a problem
Getting a cutoms welded bracket is probably out of my price range.
Thanks
Tom J
There is pre-drilled angle iron "sticks" 4 to 6 feet long in the big
box stores. Just cut to the length you need and bolt in place.
Tom J
Wayne Whitney
> I don't want to just hang the beam, I want it on top (because I am
> removing a wall below and don't want it to show).
Typically the 2x6 ceiling joists would be sitting on the wall top
plates, so it should be a simple matter to sit the 4x12 beam on the
wall top plates so the bottom of the beam is aligned with the bottom
of the ceiling joists. If the issue is that you don't want the beam
to project horizontally the additional 3.5", just cut back the ceiling
joists 3.5" so the beam doesn't project. Be sure that the built-up
posts in the walls supporting the beam are adequate.
> the 2x6s are old so they are wider then 1.5 inches, so might
> not fit a regular hanger.
No problem, joist hangers are made in a variety of widths, including
sizes for rough lumber.
Cheers, Wayne
RayV
Now I get it.
Maybe something along the lines of these things
http://www.framingconnectors.com/STTW04.html
They are cheap enough you could put them on either side of each joist
on both sides of the beam giving you a total of four 'straps' at each
beam/joist intersection. With good size nails pounded into every
available hole would probably easily hold up the joists.
You could probably even bolt the two straps on either side of the beam
and joist. Still I would be wary of such light duty connectors.
Go to a real lumber yard like 84 Lumber and ask them. There has to be
some kind of ready made hanger to do what you want.
Tom J
> Maybe something along the lines of these things
> http://www.framingconnectors.com/STTW04.html
> They are cheap enough you could put them on either side of each
> joist
> on both sides of the beam giving you a total of four 'straps' at
> each
> beam/joist intersection. With good size nails pounded into every
> available hole would probably easily hold up the joists.
> You could probably even bolt the two straps on either side of the
> beam
> and joist. **** Still I would be wary of such light duty
> connectors*****.
That's the reason I suggested the pre-drilled angle iron for this
application.
Tom J
Lawrence
> I don't want to just hang the beam, I want it on top (because I am
> removing a wall below and don't want it to show). The beam will be
> supported with blocking at both ends, so the beam will still support
> the joists. I looked through the simpson site and didn't see anything
> that jumped out at me for this.
The beam will not support anything that is below it. it must be
placed underneath the load for any support to occur. Is this you own
personal fantasy or did you run this idea past anyone with any
experience like a carpenter?? It sound like you thing these hangars
are going to support the load. That is wrong headed in my opinion.
>
> If I have to, I will inset it and use hangers, but that will be more
> work and the 2x6s are old so they are wider then 1.5 inches, so might
> not fit a regular hanger. As for the joist size, the joists are
> already there and they are just in the attic over a relitivly short
> span, so that shouldn't be a problem
>
> Getting a cutoms welded bracket is probably out of my price range.
>
You will need a damn strong bracket if you are doing what I think. You
likely wont' find it on the shelf. If you design the bracket and
provide drawings you can hire a welder/fabricator cheaper than you
might think. Where I live metalworkers are everwhere and every farmer
and mechanic does welding. Everything is negotiable with these guys
and a lot are out of work.
lp13-30
needed, but this is not going to require some 1/2" thick steel brackets.
Look at the weight a joist hanger will support vs. how light and flimsy
they look. Larry
tra...@optonline.net
> On Feb 9, 11:53 am, "Ed" <esssm...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>
> > I don't want to just hang the beam, I want it on top (because I am
> > removing a wall below and don't want it to show). The beam will be
> > supported with blocking at both ends, so the beam will still support
> > the joists. I looked through the simpson site and didn't see anything
> > that jumped out at me for this.
>
> The beam will not support anything that is below it. it must be
> placed underneath the load for any support to occur. Is this you own
> personal fantasy or did you run this idea past anyone with any
> experience like a carpenter?? It sound like you thing these hangars
> are going to support the load. That is wrong headed in my opinion.
Did you tell that to the beam? If the beam has to be below the
load, how do you explain joist hangers? Ever see a suspension bridge
or floating walkway?
>
> > If I have to, I will inset it and use hangers, but that will be more
> > work and the 2x6s are old so they are wider then 1.5 inches, so might
> > not fit a regular hanger. As for the joist size, the joists are
> > already there and they are just in the attic over a relitivly short
> > span, so that shouldn't be a problem
>
> > Getting a cutoms welded bracket is probably out of my price range.
>
> You will need a damn strong bracket if you are doing what I think. You
> likely wont' find it on the shelf.
Like a joist hanger?
Lawrence
A joist hanger works with gravity supporting the load from underneath
with multiple nails. Other larger nails also hold the joist in
place. If you want to support the beam it from above then it must be
supported from above perhaps with steel cables and turnbuckles. It
would be more than unusual.
Roof joists or collar ties are not usually large boards but they are
vital to the structural integrity and must be supported from
underneath and they should not be attached to the beam in the way
suggested. Rather, steel cable could be attached to the ridge beam
which could be beefed up would be a more likeley solution in this
unusual scenario.
No, it is not impossible but a more conventional approach can most
likely be used. If the OP insist one this wacky idea I suggest he
hire an experienced carpenter or engineer to OK the framing design.
>From a practical standpoint I think the beam could be inside the room
and made to look nice with some moulding. That is a more conventional
solution and easier to design and execute.
tra...@optonline.net
> On Feb 9, 2:17 pm, LP1...@webtv.net (lp13-30) wrote:
>
> > I always want things like this to be many times stronger than actually
> > needed, but this is not going to require some 1/2" thick steel brackets.
> > Look at the weight a joist hanger will support vs. how light and flimsy
> > they look. Larry
>
> A joist hanger works with gravity supporting the load from underneath
> with multiple nails.
Say what? Gravity is supporting the load? You claimed a beam had
to be underneath a load to support it. That, obviously isn't true.
The most widely used joist hangers obviously support a load that is
attached to the side of the beam.
Other larger nails also hold the joist in
> place. If you want to support the beam it from above then it must be
> supported from above perhaps with steel cables and turnbuckles. It
> would be more than unusual.
Go back and read the question. He doesn't want to support the beam
from above. He wants the beam to support the joists that will be
below it. Unusual yes, but certainly possible with the correct metal
brackets and without cables and turnbuckles.
>
> Roof joists or collar ties are not usually large boards but they are
> vital to the structural integrity and must be supported from
> underneath and they should not be attached to the beam in the way
> suggested. Rather, steel cable could be attached to the ridge beam
> which could be beefed up would be a more likeley solution in this
> unusual scenario.
If a beam can support the weight required by the joists, and a bracket
is used to connect them, then it can support the structure whether
from above or below. The obvious and very std joist hangers already
attach to the beam from the side, shooting your whole argument down.
And if that ain;t enough, here's a link to a supplier that has
something pretty close to what he's looking for:
http://www.expamet.co.uk/bp/products/batspee3.html
Notice the part about "underslinging joists"?
>
> No, it is not impossible but a more conventional approach can most
> likely be used.
Like turnbuckles and cables, instead of simple metal brackets? LOL
Goedjn
wrote:
The beam doesn't care whether the load it's supporting is above it,
below it, or tacked to the side. The only issue is making sure
that the hangars are capable of supporting the load on the joists.
Since these are 2x6s, one assumes that the span tributary to the
beam isn't more than 10'. If the joists are 16" o.c.,
that's 13.33 (call it 14) square feet. Since OP is
willing to have the beam above the joists, one assumes that
it's not a load bearing floor, so we can call it pessimistically
30 PSF, or 420 pounds per hanger.
I don't think there's any commonly available steel with a yield
strength of less than about 20,000 psi, but lets use 10,000.
The easiest way to support the joist is to wrap the strap
around the bottom of it, run it up both side, up one face
of the beam, so there's one strap up each side of the joist,
and hook both ends over the top of the beam. Each half
needs to support 210 pounds. On the other hand we're bending,
twisting, and drilling holes in it, so we'll triple that
value, and call it 630 pounds. Since our cheap-ass
recycled steel bar-stock supports 10,000 psi, that means
we need a strap with a cross section of .063 square inches.
Half-inch strap iron 1/8th inch thick is, conveniently
0.0625 square inches in cross section.
Hmm... common box nails, in sheer, 3" penetration
... call it 100 pounds per nail. which works out
to 6 nails per strap.. That seems excessive to
me, but hell, the point is to make stupid overbuilt...
So put 3 nails slanted one way, 2 the other, up the face
of the beam, and a sixth on on top.
Attach the brackets to alternating side of the beam
on each successive joist, so it won't be tempted
to roll. Put blocking between the joists near the
beam so that even if some nut-case screws a swing
into one of the joists, it can't pull sideways and
behead the nails one at a time.
Remember:
Goedjn is not an engineer.
Goedjn is an anonymous voice on the internet.
Do your own math.
--Goedjn
mm
I don't really understand your project, but welding is a lot cheaper
than I imagine it. The guy around here is in a suburban, neighborhood
welding shop. I don't know what the bulk of his work is, but the last
pair of things he welded together for me cost about 10 dollars.
Another guy on the opposite side of town was going to charge about the
same, but I didn't have the parts with me. In my case, the two parts
belonged to me. I suppose he'll charge a bit to provide the steel.
It's good for you to look into this. Maybe you are like me. I always
imagine that something I have never bought before, and that my parents
had never bought, is very expensive. Lucite, foam rubber, welding
were all much cheaper than I imagined. The 6 x 12 piece of lucite I
wanted was a dollar! I thought it would be much more.
Of course in this case, I don't know how complicated the bracket is,
and I could be wrong. :) but check.
>
>Thanks
DanG
for ages to remove bearing walls. It is important that the
carrier beam be sized for the load and that the holding method be
adequate. Why would the beam care if the joists were on top, in
plane, or underneath? It is still a uniformly distributed load.
It would be much lighter for the OP to make a truss. Take the
precut pieces up in the attic and assemble in location. My age is
showing now, but I have seen the hangers done with 2x2 lumber and
nails. I would definitely go with the angle iron approach.
Prepunched is fine, but expensive. A joint of 2x2x1/8 would be
less expensive and you drill your own holes, though the Simpson
twist straps might be adequate. Engineering input is always
preferred.
--
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
DanG
A live Singing Valentine quartet,
a sophisticated and elegant way to say I LOVE YOU!
vale...@okchorale.org (local)
http://www.singingvalentines.com/ (national)
"Lawrence" <lwh...@paulbunyan.net> wrote in message
news:1171051090.6...@k78g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
Wayne Whitney
> This has been done for ages to remove bearing walls.
Could you explain what the advantage is to putting the new beam on top
of the joists instead of in line with the joists (so the bottoms are
lined up)? The latter seems much simpler in a variety of ways, but
perhaps I'm missing something.
Thanks, Wayne
DanG
load while you cut the joists to be able to struggle, and I do
mean struggle, to get the beam up between the cuts and then
install the joist hangers. Depending on the length involved and
the clearance you are willing to allow on the joist hangers, you
are asking a lot to have a beam straight enough to slide right up.
You need to have the new beam in location under the cut before you
install the shoring walls.
If it is going to be an attic space or other use where the beam on
the "floor" won't create a problem, it can be an elegant solution.
--
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
DanG
A live Singing Valentine quartet,
a sophisticated and elegant way to say I LOVE YOU!
vale...@okchorale.org (local)
http://www.singingvalentines.com/ (national)
"Wayne Whitney" <whi...@post.harvard.edu> wrote in message
news:slrnesrr1t....@pizza.private...
Tom J
You did, see quote below my comment. He is taking out a load bearing
wall below and wants a flat ceiling it seems. I have the same type
thing in my home, but mine has an overhead engineered truss through
the center instead of the overhead beam that uses angle iron straps
like I suggested.
Quote
"I don't want to just hang the beam, I want it on top (because I am
removing a wall below and don't want it to show). The beam will be
supported with blocking at both ends, so the beam will still support
the joists. I looked through the simpson site and didn't see anything
that jumped out at me for this."
End Quote
Tom J
lp13-30
They had part of a load bearing wall opened up and did not want the
supporting beam it required to be in the room, so it was installed in
the attic, just as the OP is wanting to do. However. if I ever saw how
it was attatched to the joists, I do not remember. Larry
aeme...@att.net
a hole in the outside wall above the ceiling line? Unless the space is wider
than it is long, or there is access from another floor into one end of the
space, it is gonna be hard getting it up there through a joist space.
aem sends...
Jetmech
Heres what Im up against
http://i27.photobucket.com/albums/c172/jetmech727/scan-1.jpg
I'm removing the wall in question. The joists that span over it are
2x5's I think. They run 10 feet and sit on top of the wall in
question, then continue on another foot and are face nailed to a 2X5
joist running from an inside load bearing wall to the back wall. I
cut the sheetrock from under that joist and slipped in a joist hangar
on each joist. Then i went up and installed two 2x12's that also sit
on the middle load wall and span over to the back wall. I then
nailed and screwed the original 2x5 joist to the sistered 2x12. Do
you think this will be enough support? The 2x12 witht he 2x5 nailed
to it span 11 feet. When I ripped the plaster off the wall to expose
the studs, I noticed that all the studs were pretty loose. I figured
if there was a big weight load on them, then would they not be under
compression? I can see the nail shanks on some of them coming through
the top plate.
Raquesh
Hi Ad, Just wondering if you found a solution yet. I know exactly what you are
talking about because I am faced with the same problem - Beam above the
joists. How to hang the joists. I do know it is being done when they do not
want to expose the beams, but no one will tell me how
--
posted from
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burfordTjustice
Raquesh <caedfaa9ed1216d60e...@example.com> wrote:
> replying to Ed, Raquesh wrote:
> Hi Ad, Just wondering if you found a solution yet. I know exactly
> what you are talking about because I am faced with the same problem -
> Beam above the joists. How to hang the joists. I do know it is being
> done when they do not want to expose the beams, but no one will tell
> me how
>
report back here as to how you did it so
all the experts will know.
jasonn
couldnt you just use a 2x12 simpson joist hangar and nail only the top holes
of the hanger to the beam?
--
for full context, visit https://www.homeownershub.com/maintenance/tie-to-attach-joist-to-beam-above-it-193179-.htm
Bob Mirro
I like the angle iron approach suggest above. Bolts/lag screws rather than
nails
Mwarren
Ed I am curious if you completed this project and if so what you used to tie
your beam to your joist. How did it turn out? I am planning on doing the exact
same project you have described.
Bobby
In the 11 years since the project started, Ed was diagnosed with mental
problems and has been institutionalized. He likes visitors though, if you
have some time.
--
for full context, visit https://www.homeownershub.com/maintenance/--.htm
Tekkie®
--
Tekkie
flying_z
I did the exact same thing in my few hundred year old house. Ripped out a very long wall, and fashioned a 3' tall LVL perfectly against the upstairs kneewall. Bolted the remainder of the studs to the beam, and fashioned some hangars from a 50' roll of Simpson strapping allllll the way from the top of the beam, around the joist and stud, to the top of the beam on the other side.
Some photos of the monster beam, as well as the custom fasteners ( you can see them wrapped around both the floor/ceiling joist as well as the stud).
Custom fasteners = measuring and bending per stud. Wife and I made them ourselves.
https://www.homeownershub.com/img/15om
https://www.homeownershub.com/img/15oo
--
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gfre...@aol.com
<71be77c626221511...@example.com> wrote:
>Nothing like resurrecting a 13 year old post! Happened upon this as I was looking to see if anyone did mention a prefabricated connector.
>
>I did the exact same thing in my few hundred year old house. Ripped out a very long wall, and fashioned a 3' tall LVL perfectly against the upstairs kneewall. Bolted the remainder of the studs to the beam, and fashioned some hangars from a 50' roll of Simpson strapping allllll the way from the top of the beam, around the joist and stud, to the top of the beam on the other side.
>
>Some photos of the monster beam, as well as the custom fasteners ( you can see them wrapped around both the floor/ceiling joist as well as the stud).
>
>Custom fasteners = measuring and bending per stud. Wife and I made them ourselves.
>https://www.homeownershub.com/img/15om
>https://www.homeownershub.com/img/15oo
lot with those straps but Simpson probably makes a clip for that with
engineering that an inspector can verify. Usually there are several,
providing different strengths in specified loadings depending on what
you are protecting against. (uplift, shear etc).