Is a single torsion spring garage door supposed to have a center bearing?

[Danny D.]

Disassembling my first torsion spring setup, on my 8'wide by 7'tall
garage door, I just found something unexpected.

My single-spring 7'wide garage door doesn't have a center bearing.
http://www3.picturepush.com/photo/a/11428496/img/11428496.jpg

Is that normal not to have a center bearing?
http://www4.picturepush.com/photo/a/11428497/img/11428497.jpg

I have a bearing on each end, but no center bearing?
http://www3.picturepush.com/photo/a/11428516/img/11428516.jpg

The reason I ask is that the center, when hand spun, with no weight on it
other than the loose spring, has about a 1/4 inch sag in the center.
http://www5.picturepush.com/photo/a/11428533/img/11428533.jpg

Seems to me, I was expecting a center bearing.

Can it be that single-spring torsion systems don't have center bearings?

[Home Guy]

"Danny D." wrote:

> Seems to me, I was expecting a center bearing.

My 16-ft garage door has a center bearing (and two springs - one on each
side of the center bearing).

For an 8-ft wide door, I wouldn't expect a center bearing.

[Danny D.]

On Sat, 17 Nov 2012 15:38:45 -0500, Home Guy wrote:

> For an 8-ft wide door, I wouldn't expect a center bearing.

I think you're right because, digging up all I could, I found this:
http://ddmgaragedoors.com/diy-instructions/single-tsreplacement.php

Where it says:
"Some garage doors are installed without bearings.
If you have no bearing in your spring anchor bracket,
grease the shaft where it will be rubbing inside the cones."

So, I'm moving forward in the other thread on winding the torsion spring
for the first time ever in my life!

[Oren]

I looked at my doors. Wayne Dalton is a double door. The single door
is a Martin door* (the best door on the market IMO). Neither have a
bearing in the center. Instead, they both have a hard plastic bushing
to keep the shaft centered in the bracket mount.

Is the sag caused by having everything disconnected or did it sag
before you started working on the springs?

(* The Martin door single spring is not in the center of the door, but
is mounted on the left side next to the track.)

[Danny D.]

On Sat, 17 Nov 2012 12:57:35 -0800, Oren wrote:

> I looked at my doors. Wayne Dalton is a double door.

Thanks for taking the time to look & write. You're a saint.

> Neither have a bearing in the center.
> Instead, they both have a hard plastic bushing to
> keep the shaft centered in the bracket mount.

Oh oh. I had called up Dan Musick today (800-383-9548) and I told him
there was no 'bearing' (but I didn't mention a 'bushing'). He said he's
seen 'more' problems from a middle bearing going askew than not having a
bearing at all - but now I realize I didn't clarify that I have neither a
bearing nor a bushing.

I think it matters because the 9 foot bar actually MOVES!

Yes. Apparently, from my observation anyway - the overdoor bar slides to
the right (standing in the center of the garage and looking at a single
right wound spring on the left side of center) about an inch as the door
goes up (and back to the left as the door goes down).


Here is Dan's torsion spring replacement DIY for a single spring single-
spring where he actually mentions the nylon bushing (not the bearing) in
step #15:
http://ddmgaragedoors.com/diy-instructions/single-tsreplacement.php

> Is the sag caused by having everything disconnected
> or did it sag before you started working on the springs?

Hmmm... I wish I had known enough to look before the spring broke!

Especially when you see these two pictures:

DOOR CLOSED:
http://www5.picturepush.com/photo/a/11430038/img/11430038.jpg
DOOR OPEN:
http://www1.picturepush.com/photo/a/11430039/img/11430039.jpg

Notice the 9 foot bar seems to be sliding an inch to the right when the
door opens (and the bracket is pulled left); and then the 9 foot long bar
is slid an inch back to the left (and the bracket centers itself).

I think, over time, this will break the bracket. No?

Do anyone see the same thing with your single-torsion spring door, right
hand wound, mounted to the left of center?
http://www1.picturepush.com/photo/a/11430064/img/11430064.jpg

[Oren]

Send the OPEN / CLOSE photos to Dan and ask if the spring you used is
to big / long for the door. The center bracket should not be flexing
like that. I do think the bracket will break in due time, in some
fashion. You added 10.5 inch of spring length and it may be to much
torque.

[Danny D.]

On Sat, 17 Nov 2012 15:25:29 -0800, Oren wrote:

> Send the OPEN / CLOSE photos to Dan and ask if the spring you used is to
> big / long for the door. The center bracket should not be flexing like
> that. I do think the bracket will break in due time, in some fashion.
> You added 10.5 inch of spring length and it may be to much torque.

It also worries me how much it the bracket is flexing.

Upon closer inspection, there is only a SINGLE BOLT holding that plate
against the wall!

Look at this picture (with the door closed):
http://www1.picturepush.com/photo/a/11430589/img/11430589.jpg

Believe it or not, they have three BOLTS (not screws) holding the angle
iron in place - which means those three bolts holding the angle iron in
place were put in (from the outside) when the garage was built.

The weird thing is only ONE of those three bolts actually (also) holds
the bracket in place. So the bracket is free to move more than I think it
should be.

Guessing: It looks like they have some holes that are unused - probably
because they only went into sheetrock - with nothing below - which is why
it only has one bolt holding the bracket perhaps.

More data: I just screwed a long wood screw into two of the bracket holes
and they both had ONLY gypsum board behind them. So that's why they
didn't bolt the bracket with two bolts - but now I need to re-engineer
how that bracket is held in place.

Note: I can see why garage door companies don't want to upgrade springs
but this problem 'might' not even be due to the upgraded spring.

[Oren]

Use a hammer and nail to see if the is a wood piece behind the angle
iron vertical and left or right of the metal. My door does not use the
angle iron. The bracket is bolted (threaded) into vertical wood
framing. I'm not sure why the center bracket is right of center on the
door. You might measure and see if the is wood behind the sheetrock
can be located at the center - if so move that bracket over an remount
it (guessing here).

Another thought is that if you back the spring off some it may fix the
flexing problem on the bracket.

[Vic Smith]

On Sun, 18 Nov 2012 00:14:02 +0000 (UTC), "Danny D."
<dann...@yahoo.com> wrote:

>On Sat, 17 Nov 2012 15:25:29 -0800, Oren wrote:
>
>> Send the OPEN / CLOSE photos to Dan and ask if the spring you used is to
>> big / long for the door. The center bracket should not be flexing like
>> that. I do think the bracket will break in due time, in some fashion.
>> You added 10.5 inch of spring length and it may be to much torque.
>
>It also worries me how much it the bracket is flexing.
>

Sure looks wrong to me. I don't fully understand the forces involved,
but I do know bending a bracket back and forth isn't good.
Mine have always been double spring with a center bracket/bearing.
So the 2 springs cancel each others' attempt at lateral torsion shaft
movement.
And that would also mean the springs can't change in actual length,
since they are locked at both ends and the shaft doesn't move.
Guess that's why there's "spring engineers." Maybe.

[Ashton Crusher]

I just looked at my 7 foot door. It has a center bearing. IMHO they
should all have a center bearing, or at least a bushing. The bearing
combined with the rod prevents the bending you are seeing on your
flimsy metal center spring base support bracket. Your spring seems
too long to me for a 7 foot door. However, a longer spring means more
coils, which means for the same amount of rotation the spring "winds
up" less, as a proportion of it's total windup capacity. I'm guessing
that the spring you have is for a taller (not wider) door which
naturally needs to wind the spring more as the taller door moves thru
it full up-down range. My double door simply has two springs that
each appear to be0 the same size as the one spring on my single door.
I think you are fooling yourself by thinking that the "bigger" (i.e.
longer) spring is providing you with extra "power". It may or may not
be since power is a function of materials, diameter (of the wire as
well as the spring), number of coils, amount of twist, and probably
some other stuff.

[Danny D.]

On Sat, 17 Nov 2012 16:56:04 -0800, Oren wrote:

> Another thought is that if you back the spring off some it
> may fix the flexing problem on the bracket.

Hi Oren,
Thanks for the ideas.

The flexing bracket is a weird problem - which might have been
there all along - or - as you intimate - it may have been
exacerbated by the thicker longer heavier spring.

I'm gonna send some photos to Dan to ask what he'd do.
As you noted, I can de-tension the spring another quarter turn.
Or, I can simply squish the spring a quarter inch or so.

In fact, following instructions, I had moved the spring OUT
(to the left) about 1/4 inch initially AFTER it was wound
(as per instructions) - so maybe - just maybe - I moved it
out to the left too far.

I will try to squish that spring to see if 'that' minimizes
the bending of the poorly mounted bracket.

Note: I pounded with a hammer and do not see any wood below
the bracket. That's weird that they picked such a lousy spot.

[Oren]

Hope Dan can explain the flexing.

An option might be to remove the center bracket, cut the sheetrock
out neatly and mount a wood piece of 2x6 (?) to the wall (concrete
header) with epoxy or lags and then bolt into the wood.

[DerbyDad03]

Here's my single door's center bracket. As far as I know the door is
original to the house, so it's about 57 years old. The torsion spring was
replaced something like 10 years ago, but not by me.

To be honest, I don't know if that's a bearing or a bushing, but the bar is
definitely supported in the center bracket by whatever that is. The
bracket is mounted with 2 lag bolts, one into the header and the other into
the cripple stud. It does not move at all as the door goes up and down..

Bearing or Bushing:

http://i440.photobucket.com/albums/qq121/DerbyDad03/photobucket-13121-1353209104153.jpg

Bracket Mounting:

http://i440.photobucket.com/albums/qq121/DerbyDad03/photobucket-31615-1353209023586.jpg

[Danny D.]

On Sat, 17 Nov 2012 19:05:46 -0800, Oren wrote:

> An option might be to remove the center bracket, cut the sheetrock out
> neatly and mount a wood piece of 2x6 (?) to the wall (concrete header)
> with epoxy or lags and then bolt into the wood.

Now that I know it doesn't matter WHERE the bracket is mounted, I guess
I could move the angle iron to ANY location where there is an existing
stud.

I looked at my other two garage doors - and neither has this problem.

[Danny D.]

On Sat, 17 Nov 2012 19:20:39 -0600, Vic Smith wrote:

> Mine have always been double spring with a center bracket/bearing.

> the 2 springs cancel each others' attempt at lateral torsion shaft

I don't disagree.

Had I known about this bracket flimsiness ahead of time,
I would have simply replaced my one spring with two springs.

It's easy to figure out what springs to use for that purpose.

The DDM Door site conveniently has this tutorial:
How to Convert from One Garage Door Spring to Two
http://ddmgaragedoors.com/diy-instructions/two-spring-garage-door-spring-conversion.php

It says that, as the garage door opens, the spring loses 7 coils
of length - so that must be what is twisting the bracket inward.

What is supposed to happen is that the shaft is supposed to
pull through the stationary bracket - but in my case, the
bracket is moving inward - instead of the shaft (apparently).

The explanation says if I had a second spring, it would cancel
out the forces. In addition, it says it's a bit safer. And, the
winding of any one of the two springs takes half the force.

Using this spring calculator, I can convert to two springs:
http://ddmgaragedoors.com/springs/standard-torsion-springs.php

OLD: 2"IDx0.234"x26.5" RH ($36.58, 13,000 duty cycle)
NEW: 2"IDx0.187"x17.75" RH & LH ($21.08 each, 17,000 duty cycle)
NEW: 2"IDx0.187"x17.5" RH & LH ($20.84 each, 16,000 duty cycle)
NEW: 2"IDx0.192"x19.75" RH & LH ($23.50 each, 23,000 duty cycle)
NEW: 2"IDx0.207"x28.25" RH & LH ($34.29 each, 63,000 duty cycle)
NEW: 2"IDx0.218"x36.75" RH & LH ($45.88 each, 141,000 duty cycle)

[Danny D.]

On Sat, 17 Nov 2012 18:39:13 -0700, Ashton Crusher wrote:

> I just looked at my 7 foot door. It has a center bearing.
> IMHO they should all have a center bearing, or at least a bushing.

I don't disagree.

Thanks for looking. I appreciate that since I only have my doors
to go by.

I may end up putting either a nylon bushing in there, or better
yet, a steel bearing. I think the original installer cheaped
out, saving himself a couple of bucks - but the homeowner loses.

> The bearing combined with the rod prevents the bending

I think it would prevent the 'sagging' of the one-inch hollow
rod that goes across the door. I don't know if the bearing
would prevent the bracket from bending 7 coils inward when the
door is open - simply because the bracket is supposed to be
stationary.

> Your spring seems too long to me for a 7 foot door.

It's calculated

> However, a longer spring means more coils

I didn't count the coils - but the new spring is thicker
gauge wire - so - any one coil is thicker. The reason for
the thicker gauge wire is merely for duty cycles.

Since the wire is thicker, to lift the same door, the
spring will be either longer, or a larger ID. Since I kept
the ID at 2", the spring has to be longer to lift the same

door.

> I think you are fooling yourself by thinking that the
> "bigger" (i.e. longer) spring is providing you with
> extra "power".

You're absolutely right. I would be fooling myself if I
thought that. The 'only' reason for the longer spring is
I opted for a thicker gauge (0.250" rather than 0.243").

The only way you can get the same force with the thicker
gauge wire is to either opt for a larger ID or for a
longer spring. I opted for the longer spring.

But it should have the same force as the shorter spring
with the thinner gauge. It should only have a longer
duty cycle (by far).

Of course, it's ironic if this longer-duty cycle spring
tears the mounting plate off the wall. Certainly, I need
to find a solution.

For the next person who replaces their garage door spring,
I suggest looking first BEFORE it breaks, to see how it's
working.

[Danny D.]

On Sun, 18 Nov 2012 03:36:17 +0000, DerbyDad03 wrote:

> Here's my single door's center bracket. As far as I know the door is
> original to the house, so it's about 57 years old. The torsion spring was
> replaced something like 10 years ago, but not by me.

Wow. I envy how STURDY your spring mounting is (compared to mine!).

Your first picture showed a nicely installed bearing.
And your second picture shows a sturdily bolted plate.

> I don't know if that's a bearing or a bushing

It's a bearing. A bushing is (apparently) simply a piece of nylon.

> It does not move at all as the door goes up and down.

Thanks for the update. I envy you. And learn from you!

[Steve Barker]

there would be no need for one in a 7 or 8 foot span.

--
Steve Barker
remove the "not" from my address to email

[Danny D.]

On Sun, 18 Nov 2012 09:44:26 -0600, Steve Barker wrote:

> there would be no need for one in a 7 or 8 foot span.

I'm going to see what Dan Musick thinks - I hope he responds
to my email on Monday.

I see three options at the moment:
a) Shore up the bracket (somehow) to that it doesn't move
b) Add a nylon bushing or steel bearing & see if that helps
c) Convert the one spring to a two-spring system

[Oren]

On Sun, 18 Nov 2012 03:36:17 +0000 (UTC), DerbyDad03
<teama...@eznet.net> wrote:

>> Can it be that single-spring torsion systems don't have center bearings?
>
>Here's my single door's center bracket. As far as I know the door is
>original to the house, so it's about 57 years old. The torsion spring was
>replaced something like 10 years ago, but not by me.
>
>To be honest, I don't know if that's a bearing or a bushing, but the bar is
>definitely supported in the center bracket by whatever that is. The
>bracket is mounted with 2 lag bolts, one into the header and the other into
>the cripple stud. It does not move at all as the door goes up and down..
>
>Bearing or Bushing:
>
>http://i440.photobucket.com/albums/qq121/DerbyDad03/photobucket-13121-1353209104153.jpg
>
>Bracket Mounting:
>
>http://i440.photobucket.com/albums/qq121/DerbyDad03/photobucket-31615-1353209023586.jpg

Likely a bearing. Touch a magnet to it. A nylon bushing, in my case,
is black.

[Oren]

See my single and double doors:

http://tinypic.com/r/21m4syf/6

Vertical (cripple stud?) 2X6 lumber. Why I mentioned cutting the
sheetrock out... 14 year old Wayne Dalton double door. Opener added
eight years ago.

http://tinypic.com/r/70upf9/6

Martin single door replaced a couple years ago. NOTE the spring is
next to the drum as I mentioned earlier in the thread. Same case with
2X6 lumber. Even the tracks have wood for bolting the metal.

Both doors have nylon bushings in center bracket.

http://tinypic.com/r/2nk0zk0/6

Why I love the Martin door brand (can be installed by company
certified installers) HD and Lowe's may carry them in your area. The
roller wheels are nylon, thus cutting down on noise of metal to metal.

See the 4" vertical support for the track.

[Oren]

On Sun, 18 Nov 2012 05:18:50 +0000 (UTC), "Danny D."
<dann...@yahoo.com> wrote:

>> The bearing combined with the rod prevents the bending

>I think it would prevent the 'sagging' of the one-inch hollow
>rod that goes across the door. I don't know if the bearing
>would prevent the bracket from bending 7 coils inward when the
>door is open - simply because the bracket is supposed to be
>stationary.

I forgot to snap a photo (Wayne Dalton door). The bracket uses a
nylon bushing. When the door is closed, there is a slight arch /
radius on the shaft downward. Slight, but you have to really look to
notice. A bushing / bearing is necessary to keep the shaft from
serious movement in the slotted bracket.

[Oren]

On Sun, 18 Nov 2012 17:56:12 +0000 (UTC), "Danny D."
<dann...@yahoo.com> wrote:

>On Sun, 18 Nov 2012 09:44:26 -0600, Steve Barker wrote:
>
>> there would be no need for one in a 7 or 8 foot span.
>
>I'm going to see what Dan Musick thinks - I hope he responds
>to my email on Monday.
>
>I see three options at the moment:

>a) Shore up the bracket (somehow) to that it doesn't move

First step

>b) Add a nylon bushing or steel bearing & see if that helps

Second step

>c) Convert the one spring to a two-spring system

Wait until next time. Have a beverage instead.

[DerbyDad03]

There's a family owned garage door company in my area. I've had 2 problems
with my garage door in the last ten years. One was a busted torsion spring,
the other I don't remember what it was...I think it was a cable.

Both times i called them, left them a key to the side door of the garage
and when I got home from work, the problem was solved for a reasonable
price. You can see the quality of work that they do, so it was money well
spent.

I still see their trucks on the road and have recommended them to a number
of my friends and co-workers.

[Danny D.]

On Sun, 18 Nov 2012 12:30:33 -0800, Oren wrote:

> See my single and double doors:
> http://tinypic.com/r/21m4syf/6

Hi Oren,

I see that 2x6 vertical stud - which I envy - as mine is just in
gypsum board. That picture gives me an idea to copy - except I'm
a bit worried about the extra 2 inches, having never installed a
garage door opener before.

> Why I mentioned cutting the sheetrock out...

> http://tinypic.com/r/70upf9/6

Interesting. You have that "cripple stud" on the rollers too.
If I cut the sheetrock out, I might gain the 2 inches that I lose.

> Both doors have nylon bushings in center bracket.
> http://tinypic.com/r/2nk0zk0/6

The roller in that picture looks bigger than the track!

> See the 4" vertical support for the track.

Very sturdy. I don't have that. Mine just have the track brackets
but not that nice steel vertical support. I envy your setup!

[Danny D.]

On Sun, 18 Nov 2012 12:43:02 -0800, Oren wrote:

> When the door is closed, there is a slight arch/radius on the

> shaft downward. Slight...

Mine seems more than slight. Seems to me mine NEEDS a bushing.
I called today to Home Depot & Lowes but they didn't even know
what I was talking about.

> A bushing / bearing is necessary to keep the shaft from
> serious movement in the slotted bracket.

I think it also might prevent the shaft from 'catching' on
the bracket. Maybe if the shaft SLID sidewise (in a bushing)
better, it wouldn't be bending the bracket?

I will buy the 1" ID (2"OD) nylon bushing as soon as I can
find a local supplier. I might have to visit a garage door
company on Monday.

[Danny D.]

On Sun, 18 Nov 2012 12:51:47 -0800, Oren wrote:

>>a) Shore up the bracket (somehow) to that it doesn't move
> First step
>>b) Add a nylon bushing or steel bearing & see if that helps
> Second step
>>c) Convert the one spring to a two-spring system
> Wait until next time. Have a beverage instead.

Thanks for the advice of the priorities.

One thing I tried today was MEASURING how much the spring
grew to the left when I installed it.

So I unwound it - and measured the growth to be 2 1/4 inches:
http://www2.picturepush.com/photo/a/11439810/img/11439810.jpg

One 'complication' is that I do NOT understand WHY the Dan Musick
instructions say to add an extra 1/4 inch to the normal growth
of the spring AFTER it has been wound the extra 7 turns.

I 'think' I might have pushed the spring out MORE than 1/4 inch
when following those directions (although I don't understand them).

QUESTION:
Do you know why Dan suggests adding the extra 1/4 inch?

Here are Dan's instructions:
http://ddmgaragedoors.com/diy-instructions/single-tsreplacement.php
Notice step #72 (actually #70 to #73).

I don't understand why we need to "GROW" the spring any more
than it grows on its own (and I wonder if I grew it too much)???

[Oren]

On Sun, 18 Nov 2012 23:59:37 +0000 (UTC), "Danny D."
<dann...@yahoo.com> wrote:

>
>> Both doors have nylon bushings in center bracket.
>> http://tinypic.com/r/2nk0zk0/6
>
>The roller in that picture looks bigger than the track!

The actual nylon roller wheel is inside the track. The big outside one
your see, as best as I can guess, is a nylon guide. Maybe preventing
side to side movement, thus nylon in instead of metal noise. Almost
silent.

<http://martindoor.com/?utm_source=live&utm_medium=cpc&utm_campaign=Design+Online>

[Oren]

On Sun, 18 Nov 2012 23:59:37 +0000 (UTC), "Danny D."
<dann...@yahoo.com> wrote:

>On Sun, 18 Nov 2012 12:30:33 -0800, Oren wrote:
>
>> See my single and double doors:
>> http://tinypic.com/r/21m4syf/6
>
>Hi Oren,
>
>I see that 2x6 vertical stud - which I envy - as mine is just in
>gypsum board. That picture gives me an idea to copy - except I'm
>a bit worried about the extra 2 inches, having never installed a
>garage door opener before.
>

Two inches does not matter. The opener (mine) is bolted in the
ceiling. It has the same angle iron as on your spring mount - move it
back and forth for minor adjustments horizontally.

>> Why I mentioned cutting the sheetrock out...
>> http://tinypic.com/r/70upf9/6
>
>Interesting. You have that "cripple stud" on the rollers too.
>If I cut the sheetrock out, I might gain the 2 inches that I lose.
>

Get behind the sheetrock and peeky-boo what is there, An easy way is
to knock a hammer face sized hole next to the bracket.

[Danny D.]

On Sun, 18 Nov 2012 17:27:08 -0800, Oren wrote:

> Two inches does not matter.

OK. Thanks. I haven't looked at the geometry of the opener just yet
as I've been concentrating on the spring.

It's interesting how much we DON'T know about simple things,
until we have to fix 'em.

> Get behind the sheetrock and peeky-boo what is there

BTW, here's what I found when I was snooping around.
http://www3.picturepush.com/photo/a/11440621/img/11440621.jpg

A nice big fat black widow spider!

[Danny D.]

On Mon, 19 Nov 2012 00:16:51 +0000, Danny D. wrote:

> QUESTION:
> Do you know why Dan suggests adding the extra 1/4 inch?
> Here are Dan's instructions:
> http://ddmgaragedoors.com/diy-instructions/single-tsreplacement.php
> Notice step #72 (actually #70 to #73).

I just realized I have about an extra inch of leeway by pushing the
hollow rod left or right BEFORE I mount the spring.

However, I'm a bit confused which way (left or right) would be
best to push the rod by that inch before I put the spring on.

It's new to me that the rod moves back and forth side to side,
and I'm not sure why we move the spring left after it grows,
so it's kinda confusing to me which way will put the least
side-to-side stress on the bracket.

[Oren]

On Mon, 19 Nov 2012 03:10:57 +0000 (UTC), "Danny D."
<dann...@yahoo.com> wrote:

>BTW, here's what I found when I was snooping around.
> http://www3.picturepush.com/photo/a/11440621/img/11440621.jpg
>
>A nice big fat black widow spider!

It must be the year. I've killed several black widows in recent
months. Even egg sacks. Found one in the pool leaf basket.

I 'kilt 'em all'. I have another one I'm about to stomp.

[Danny D.]

On Mon, 19 Nov 2012 03:26:18 +0000, Danny D. wrote:

> It's new to me that the rod moves back and forth side to side,
> and I'm not sure why we move the spring left after it grows

Upon closer inspection, I think the rod does NOT move!

I took my torsion spring off yet again, and moved both
cable drums inward a bit and tested it out and it STILL
bent the spring end plate when the door opened.

Here is a video showing the spring end plate in action:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DNAfZP1bMQM

And, notice how loose my end bearing plates appear to be:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fHKjGDqz9wE

Using a hammer and nail, I found there is NO STUD underneath
not only the spring end plate mounting bolts, but also no
stud underneath the cable drum mounting points above the door!

Here is a view of the right side end plate problem:
http://www3.picturepush.com/photo/a/11444806/img/11444806.jpg
http://www5.picturepush.com/photo/a/11444808/img/11444808.jpg

And, here is a view of the left side end plate problem:
http://www1.picturepush.com/photo/a/11444809/img/11444809.jpg
http://www2.picturepush.com/photo/a/11444810/img/11444810.jpg

Methinks this garage door was badly hung - but it lasted for
decades - so it should be relatively easy to repair.

[Danny D.]

I just got off the phone with Dan of DDM Doors (he's a saint!)
who said that the ONLY way that the spring end plate could be
moving like that was if the two bearing end plates were allowing
it to move.

So, he said, I can secure the spring end plate, but that
in and of itself would NOT solve my problem:

Here is a picture of the spring end plate logistics:
http://www5.picturepush.com/photo/a/11445008/img/11445008.jpg

I have to secure the bearing end plates:
http://www5.picturepush.com/photo/a/11444808/img/11444808.jpg

Dan is going to send me some parts for me to do the job right.

I'll let you know what happens - but I wish I really better
understood what is making the spring end plate move like that!

[Oren]

On Mon, 19 Nov 2012 19:07:51 +0000 (UTC), "Danny D."
<dann...@yahoo.com> wrote:

>Here is a picture of the spring end plate logistics:
> http://www5.picturepush.com/photo/a/11445008/img/11445008.jpg
>

I'd move the spring mount bracket LEFT, closer to the center of the
door. This assumes you have clearance adjacent the left side cable
drum.

>I have to secure the bearing end plates:
> http://www5.picturepush.com/photo/a/11444808/img/11444808.jpg

You still haven't mentioned what is behind the sheetrock. If you did
I missed it. Is it a solid concrete header?

[Oren]

On Mon, 19 Nov 2012 19:07:51 +0000 (UTC), "Danny D."
<dann...@yahoo.com> wrote:

>Here is a picture of the spring end plate logistics:
> http://www5.picturepush.com/photo/a/11445008/img/11445008.jpg
>
>I have to secure the bearing end plates:
> http://www5.picturepush.com/photo/a/11444808/img/11444808.jpg
>
>Dan is going to send me some parts for me to do the job right.
>
>I'll let you know what happens - but I wish I really better
>understood what is making the spring end plate move like that!

My guess is the metal is flexing at the drum, due to not have studs
secured in the spots you show?

[Danny D.]

On Mon, 19 Nov 2012 12:16:26 -0800, Oren wrote:

> I'd move the spring mount bracket LEFT, closer to the center
> of the door. This assumes you have clearance adjacent the
> left side cable drum.

Hi Oren,

See this picture which shows the geometries:
http://www4.picturepush.com/photo/a/11446447/img/11446447.jpg

I'd agree with you that moving the spring mount bracket LEFT
18" works best because it leaves room to add a second spring
(if needed, later).

Moving the bracket right 12" doesn't allow for the second spring.
However, moving the bracket left only leaves me about 8 inches
before the spring hits the cable drum. (Keep in mind my new 0.250"
spring is 10 inches longer than the old 0.234" spring.)

> You still haven't mentioned what is behind the sheetrock.
> If you did I missed it. Is it a solid concrete header?

I wish I knew. As far as I can tell, there is NOTHING behind
the sheetrock. I punched fifteen 3-inch long nail holes into
the sheetrock and the only thing I ran into was the two
studs mentioned above.

There is no header. I would have expected a huge beam above
the garage door - but I am strongly suspecting there is a
steel beam at the ceiling level instead.

Look at this picture. Look at the very top right of the pic:
http://www4.picturepush.com/photo/a/11446497/img/11446497.jpg
Do you see those four huge nuts? I think that's a beam.

You guys know better than I how they build these things.
But it sure looks like there isn't any wooden header!

What do you think those four bolts are way up at the top?

[Danny D.]

On Mon, 19 Nov 2012 12:25:20 -0800, Oren wrote:

> My guess is the metal is flexing at the drum, due to not have studs
> secured in the spots you show?

I can't disagree. I never would have even LOOKED at the end
plates had Dan of DDM Garage Doors told me they MUST be flexing.

Mind you, he told me they were flexing BEFORE I even knew that
they had no bolts below them (because there is no stud below them).

He surmised that - because he said there is no way the spring
anchor bracket would move like that if the end bearing plates
were solidly bolted in.

So, he's sending me, gratis, hardware to tie those end bearing
plates to the nearest studs. I'm not exactly sure HOW I'm going
to do that - but I'll wait for the parts to arrive where I'll
figure it out from the pieces.

BTW, I don't work for DDM Garage Doors - but - if you're a
do it yourselfer - I would heartily recommend Dan. He's
wonderful. Don't even look anywhere else. Buy from him!

He stands behind you, hook, line, and sinker!

[Oren]

On Mon, 19 Nov 2012 22:28:29 +0000 (UTC), "Danny D."
<dann...@yahoo.com> wrote:

>Look at this picture. Look at the very top right of the pic:
> http://www4.picturepush.com/photo/a/11446497/img/11446497.jpg
>Do you see those four huge nuts? I think that's a beam.
>
>You guys know better than I how they build these things.
>But it sure looks like there isn't any wooden header!
>
>What do you think those four bolts are way up at the top?

Could be metal header. Drive a nail left, right and below the nuts.
Try an figure the direction the metal travels. I'll hazard a guess it
will be the header over the garage.

[dpb]

Could be. Unfortunately, the picture doesn't show but barely any of the
area of interest. Would be easier to diagnose if actually had an area
in the picture of interest and perhaps the outside and another w/ the
door open looking at the opening overhead...

--

[Danny D.]

On Mon, 19 Nov 2012 16:09:06 -0800, Oren wrote:

> Could be metal header. Drive a nail left, right and below the nuts.
> Try an figure the direction the metal travels. I'll hazard a guess it
> will be the header over the garage.

I did that. Close to the metal, the nails stop.
Everywhere else, the nails go only through the board and then inches
of space.

The outside wall is stucco - so there's nothing on the outside.

I think the metal header is at the ceiling and not at the
garage door. Above the garage door seems to be just a two by four.

[Oren]

No doubt. I zoomed the photo to 400%. Based on the poor quality, I
will say it looks like the bolt pattern is horizontal.

Some dang kind of header over the RO.

[dpb]

What's the construction? Block garage wall is visible, is the whole
structure block or is it frame above block? Where's the break if the
latter? There has to be a header over the opening to support the
block--either a cast prestressed or sometimes they use a preformed metal
that looks somewhat like an inverted 'T'...

Or, maybe the opening above the door is conventional framing between the
block walls on either side???? Would be rather unusual but might
explain the apparent hollowness...

As noted in other response, need more pictures of the area in question
specifically instead of the door...

--

[DerbyDad03]

If there is no header, what are all of those drywall mud splotches
covering? They sure look like nail or screw heads to me.

Here's a picture of what's above my door. Let me described it first.

On both sides of the door are 2 jack studs supporting a 2x8 laying flat to
form an overhang in front of the door. You can't see that 2x8 because it is
exterior of the very top of the door, which is just visible in the picture.

Outboard of those 2 jack studs are 2 more jack studs holding up a 2x8
header which is what you see in the picture.

Resting on the header are very short cripple studs that support a 2x4 laid
flat at the ceiling.

If I were to cover the header, cripple studs and 2x4 with drywall like
yours is, I would use screws into the lower part of the header and into the
upper 2x4. Once I covered them with mud, it would look just like yours.

http://i440.photobucket.com/albums/qq121/DerbyDad03/photobucket-29262-1353372161949.jpg

As far as the 4 bolts in your picture, I can't explain them. What is on the
other side of that wall? Is anything mounted on the opposite side that
would explain the bolts?

You know, it's just wallboard. If you want to ensure that the brackets and
GDO are securely mounted, why not just rip the wallboard out so you'll know
exactly what's behind it?

[Oren]

If correct, they framed around the metal header. And never placed
lumber that would support the gargle door. In the correct places.

I agree you have a bad install from ages ago.

If it was my call, I would RIP that sheetrock off the top and get
myself a good swanpbilly rednek gander at what is exactly back there.

[Oren]

On Tue, 20 Nov 2012 01:19:14 +0000 (UTC), DerbyDad03
<teama...@eznet.net> wrote:

>If there is no header, what are all of those drywall mud splotches
>covering? They sure look like nail or screw heads to me.

They cover up where the wallboard is fastened to the studs, that the
OP needs to anchor parts of his door? Easy way to find the studs if
you won't RIP off the sheetrock for a start.

[Oren]

On Tue, 20 Nov 2012 01:19:14 +0000 (UTC), DerbyDad03
<teama...@eznet.net> wrote:

>If there is no header

The weight of the roof would collapse the center of the RO for the
garage door.......

Or the header breaks and the roof collapses.

Sumpni' like that

[Danny D.]

On Mon, 19 Nov 2012 18:55:18 -0600, dpb wrote:

> Unfortunately, the picture doesn't show but barely any of the
> area of interest. Would be easier to diagnose if actually had an area
> in the picture of interest and perhaps the outside and another w/ the
> door open looking at the opening overhead...

Here is a better picture taken just now:
http://www5.picturepush.com/photo/a/11448183/img/11448183.jpg

If you look closely, you can see where I still have nails in
the gypsum board to the right of the right end bearing plate.

I also left the nails in the stud I found a foot to the right
of the spring end plate and another stud a foot and a half to
the left of that spring end plate.

Those are the only studs I have to tie to.

I have no idea what the four nuts are in the top near the ceiling
but I have to assume there is a steel beam at that level.

[Danny D.]

On Mon, 19 Nov 2012 17:08:38 -0800, Oren wrote:

> No doubt. I zoomed the photo to 400%. Based on the poor quality, I
> will say it looks like the bolt pattern is horizontal.
>
> Some dang kind of header over the RO.

Here is a picture at full strength.
http://www4.picturepush.com/photo/a/11448197/img/11448197.jpg

You can see all the nails I left in place (which hit studs) and you
can also see the nail holes which didn't hit studs.

[Danny D.]

On Tue, 20 Nov 2012 01:19:14 +0000, DerbyDad03 wrote:

> As far as the 4 bolts in your picture, I can't explain them. What is on the
> other side of that wall? Is anything mounted on the opposite side that
> would explain the bolts?

It's the outside of the house. All stucco. Nothing is on that other side.
This is earthquake country - so - maybe the four bolts are attached
to an earthquake thing?

Big picture of everything:
http://www4.picturepush.com/photo/a/11448197/img/11448197.jpg

[dpb]

You don't show that you tried at the elevation of the (presumed) beam at
the level between the bolts to determine if, indeed it does span the
opening (can almost guarantee it does but it would tell a lot if you
knew that for certain).

It appears to me they spanned the opening at that level below the
trusses/joists and then just infilled the opening above the door w/
conventional framing. I also presume there are complementary bolts on
the other end hidden by the storage platform????

I've not read this thread--wo I don't know what you're attempting to
accomplish here on this part...if you're trying to center up the
mounting hardware, as Oren says just pull everything down out of the
way, open up the cavity and add blocking as needed then reinstall
surface covering.

--

[Danny D.]

On Tue, 20 Nov 2012 11:49:55 -0600, G. Morgan wrote:

>>Upon closer inspection, there is only a SINGLE BOLT
> holding that spring end plate against the wall!
>
> Very dangerous. That is where all the energy 'rests'.
> Screw in another 3" lag screw and get yourself a bearing/bushing.

I agree it's dangerous, especially in the door-open position:
http://www3.picturepush.com/photo/a/11452991/img/11452991.jpg
http://www5.picturepush.com/photo/a/11452988/img/11452988.jpg

There is NOTHING below the gypsum board the ENTIRE length
of the angle iron which the spring anchor plate is bolted to
(by that one bolt).
http://www4.picturepush.com/photo/a/11452987/img/11452987.jpg

So, the only thing I 'can' add is another short bolt which
simply keeps the spring anchor plate mounted to the angle
iron.
http://www2.picturepush.com/photo/a/11452985/img/11452985.jpg

The angle iron itself if bolted (or screwed) at the very
top and the very bottom to something inside the wall.
http://www3.picturepush.com/photo/a/11452986/img/11452986.jpg

[Danny D.]

On Tue, 20 Nov 2012 09:59:03 -0600, dpb wrote:

> You don't show that you tried at the elevation of the (presumed) beam at
> the level between the bolts to determine if, indeed it does span the
> opening (can almost guarantee it does but it would tell a lot if you
> knew that for certain).

Here is a panorama picture of the garage door with red showing wood
below the gypsum; blue shows steel; and white shows air:
http://www3.picturepush.com/photo/a/11453671/img/11453671.jpg

> It appears to me they spanned the opening at that level below the
> trusses/joists and then just infilled the opening above the door w/
> conventional framing.

There 'is' a two-inch thick piece of wood directly over the door
as shown in this picture. The red-painted nail heads sticking out
hit wood while the white painted nailheads went into air.
http://www5.picturepush.com/photo/a/11453703/img/11453703.jpg

> if you're trying to center up the mounting hardware

Actually we originally thought the spring anchor plate near the
center was badly mounted above air - and it is! But, the real
problem appears to be both side bearing plates are also mounted
above air!
http://www1.picturepush.com/photo/a/11453719/img/11453719.jpg

In the picture above, red is wood, yellow is air, & blue is steel.

[Danny D.]

On Tue, 20 Nov 2012 11:47:55 -0600, G. Morgan wrote:

>>Is that normal not to have a center bearing?
>> http://www4.picturepush.com/photo/a/11428497/img/11428497.jpg
>
> NO! That is missing the bearing, it MUST be on there!

Dan Musick of DDM Garage Doors is kindly sending me a bearing.

The construction appears to be:
a) There is air under the entire spring anchor plate.
b) The spring anchor plate is bolted by 1 bolt to the angle iron.
c) There is air below the angle iron except at the very top & bottom.
d) There is air under both end bearing plates.

Given that, what appears to be happening (0.250" steel):
A) As the door rolls up, the spring compresses 7.5 turns (~2")
B) This (invisibly) pulls in both end bearing plates (hard to see)
C) Which also visibly pulls in the spring anchor plate (~1")

Here is what I think the forces are:
http://www1.picturepush.com/photo/a/11453754/img/11453754.jpg

[dpb]

On 11/20/2012 1:42 PM, Danny D. wrote:
...

> Actually we originally thought the spring anchor plate near the
> center was badly mounted above air - and it is! But, the real
> problem appears to be both side bearing plates are also mounted
> above air!
> http://www1.picturepush.com/photo/a/11453719/img/11453719.jpg
>

You don't seem to hear the answer--open up enough of the cavity to put
in sufficient blocking where it needs to be and then go on.

You _could_ use like 3/16 steel plates mounted on the surface at the top
and bottom and mount the hardware on them but overall it's likely
simpler to just add the blocking.

--

[Danny D.]

On Tue, 20 Nov 2012 12:12:30 -0600, G. Morgan wrote:

>>Here is a picture at full strength.
>> http://www4.picturepush.com/photo/a/11448197/img/11448197.jpg
>>
>>You can see all the nails I left in place (which hit studs) and you
>>can also see the nail holes which didn't hit studs.
>

> The opener front mount is secured to something. Likely there is a 2x6
> bolted to the steel header going all the way horizontally for the
> vertical studs to be mounted to.

You are correct. I just checked by driving some nails.

There 'is' wood under the steel beam as shown in this picture.
http://www1.picturepush.com/photo/a/11453769/img/11453769.jpg

Apparently the garage door opener trolley is attached to this
wood as is the top of the angle iron that the spring anchor
plate is bolted to (by a single bolt).

[Oren]

I'll stick with my prior suggestions.

1) Move the spring mount bracket LEFT the 18 inches and anchor into
the wood (you do have spring clearance on the left at the cable drum,
right?).

2) Cut the sheet rock out above the drums and install a vertical wood
support piece of wood behind the drum so you can get some bolts in
there. Use epoxy of lags into the header or use the same method used
for the other wood behind the drywall.

3) Until you get the door mounts secured you will continue to have
movement and flexing.

My humble opinion from the book of Orenthians :-\

[Danny D.]

On Tue, 20 Nov 2012 12:13:52 -0600, G. Morgan wrote:

> Why don't you cut away some sheetrock to take a peek?

I pounded about fifty nails and figured out what is
below the sheetrock.
http://www3.picturepush.com/photo/a/11454316/img/11454316.jpg

Now it makes sense why there is air below both the
end bearing plates and below the spring anchor plate.

[Danny D.]

On Tue, 20 Nov 2012 11:59:55 -0600, G. Morgan wrote:

> See the sheet rock screws?
> That means there are vertical studs to mount to.

Here is a picture showing the cripple studs & the steel beam:
http://www1.picturepush.com/photo/a/11454354/img/11454354.jpg

[Danny D.]

On Tue, 20 Nov 2012 11:58:15 -0600, G. Morgan wrote:

> If you can not get a good lag screw into the bearing plate ...

There is absolutely nothing below the entire length of the
spring end plate.

> you'll need to 'span' some angle iron across the top
(where the header should be)

There 'is' a cripple stud of wood along the top (header?) of
the garage door, which is diagrammed in this photo:
http://www1.picturepush.com/photo/a/11454354/img/11454354.jpg

> you will also need to shim the sides where the drum brackets
> are mounted so the torsion bar is not bending out

I have a vertical cripple stud about a foot and a half to
the right of the drum mounts where I will try to shore up
the lack of anything below the drum mounts themselves.

[Danny D.]

On Tue, 20 Nov 2012 12:19:15 -0800, Oren wrote:

> 1) Move the spring mount bracket LEFT the 18 inches and anchor into
> the wood (you do have spring clearance on the left at the cable drum,
> right?).

With the new longer spring, there is only about 8 inches of clearance
to the cable drum if I move the spring mount bracket to the LEFT by
18 inches to be on a cripple stud - but that should be enough clearance.

> 2) Cut the sheet rock out above the drums and install a vertical wood
> support piece of wood behind the drum so you can get some bolts in
> there. Use epoxy of lags into the header or use the same method used
> for the other wood behind the drywall.

That's a good idea. I'll wait for Dan Musick's part to arrive from
DDM Garage Doors before taking the next step - but I have to remove
everything anyway to put the new spring bearing in so that's when
I'll do it.

> 3) Until you get the door mounts secured you will continue
> to have movement and flexing.

I agree. I wish I had looked at the bending of the spring end
bracket BEFORE it broke ... to see if the thicker longer spring
made any difference.

[Oren]

On Tue, 20 Nov 2012 21:29:40 +0000 (UTC), "Danny D."
<dann...@yahoo.com> wrote:

>On Tue, 20 Nov 2012 12:19:15 -0800, Oren wrote:
>
>> 1) Move the spring mount bracket LEFT the 18 inches and anchor into
>> the wood (you do have spring clearance on the left at the cable drum,
>> right?).
>
>With the new longer spring, there is only about 8 inches of clearance
>to the cable drum if I move the spring mount bracket to the LEFT by
>18 inches to be on a cripple stud - but that should be enough clearance.
>

Plenty of room - move the bracket over, closer to center of the door
and fasten it down. The original installer should have done this in
the first - not on some sheet rock with a void behind it. Just move it
already.

>> 2) Cut the sheet rock out above the drums and install a vertical wood
>> support piece of wood behind the drum so you can get some bolts in
>> there. Use epoxy of lags into the header or use the same method used
>> for the other wood behind the drywall.
>
>That's a good idea. I'll wait for Dan Musick's part to arrive from
>DDM Garage Doors before taking the next step - but I have to remove
>everything anyway to put the new spring bearing in so that's when
>I'll do it.
>

I did mention this before, a couple of times. If Dan sends MORE angle
iron I would skip it and get me some wood in there. That iron you
have is subject to flex and movement.

>> 3) Until you get the door mounts secured you will continue
>> to have movement and flexing.
>
>I agree. I wish I had looked at the bending of the spring end
>bracket BEFORE it broke ... to see if the thicker longer spring
>made any difference.

What I do not grasp is why an installer would a put left turn spring
on the right center of the door so far and hope a one bolt mount would
last. <sigh>

[Oren]

On Tue, 20 Nov 2012 05:59:30 +0000 (UTC), "Danny D."
<dann...@yahoo.com> wrote:

>You can see all the nails I left in place (which hit studs) and you
>can also see the nail holes which didn't hit studs.

Now, had they put to studs in the correct location for mounting the
door hardware - you would not have the problems.

[Danny D.]

On Tue, 20 Nov 2012 13:51:21 -0800, Oren wrote:

> Plenty of room - move the bracket over, closer to center of the door
> and fasten it down. The original installer should have done this in
> the first - not on some sheet rock with a void behind it. Just move it
> already.

Hi Oren,

You are astute in that you noticed that moving the spring bracket
18" to the left actually puts it CLOSER to the center of the door
than it currently is. I agree. The original installer should have
done that - and I will do that (and post pictures).

I'll wait for Dan Musick's parts to arrive though, as Dan said the
spring bracket and any stud below it will get ripped out of the wall
if I don't also secure the two bearing end plates.

> If Dan sends MORE angle iron I would skip it and get me some

> wood in there. That iron you have is subject to flex & movement.

I'll snap a picture of what Dan sent when it arrives.
My understanding of what he suggested was to brace the end
bearing plates against 'something'.

> What I do not grasp is why an installer would a put left turn
> spring on the right center of the door so far and hope a one
> bolt mount would last. <sigh>

It's a right-turn spring - but the one bolt is just crazy.
That one bolt is ONLY holding the bracket to the angle iron.
I guess it lasted 25 years - so - the installer got away with
it - but all of us agree it's a pretty lame setup that I must fix,
especially with my longer heavier spring.

I only wish I had looked prior to the spring breaking to see
if the spring bracket was flexing that much with the original
spring (which was 9.5 inches shorter than the new one).

I also wish I had opted for a two-spring system, which would
have made a difference - but Dan Musick told me that it still
would have had a problem if the end bearing plates are flexing.

The funny thing is that I don't see any flex in the end bearing
plates. But Dan said it must be there because the spring end
plate can't flex unless the end bearing plates allow it to flex.

[Oren]

On Tue, 20 Nov 2012 09:59:03 -0600, dpb <no...@non.net> wrote:

>I've not read this thread--wo I don't know what you're attempting to
>accomplish here on this part...if you're trying to center up the
>mounting hardware, as Oren says just pull everything down out of the
>way, open up the cavity and add blocking as needed then reinstall
>surface covering.

I noticed in another of his photos that the drywall is only across the
door header, some on the sides of the door, but it is not all the way
to floor.

If Danny puts one more hole in that drywall, he may have to take it
all down over the header and show us pictures.

I'm curious what is behind there and how deep the void is...

[Oren]

On Tue, 20 Nov 2012 22:12:21 +0000 (UTC), "Danny D."
<dann...@yahoo.com> wrote:

>The funny thing is that I don't see any flex in the end bearing
>plates. But Dan said it must be there because the spring end
>plate can't flex unless the end bearing plates allow it to flex.

The shaft will flex without the bushing or bearing. Do-Do Happens.

[DerbyDad03]

Oren <Or...@127.0.0.1> wrote:
> On Tue, 20 Nov 2012 01:19:14 +0000 (UTC), DerbyDad03
> <teama...@eznet.net> wrote:
>
>> If there is no header, what are all of those drywall mud splotches
>> covering? They sure look like nail or screw heads to me.
>
> They cover up where the wallboard is fastened to the studs, that the
> OP needs to anchor parts of his door? Easy way to find the studs if
> you won't RIP off the sheetrock for a start.

There's 14 mud splotches in the wallboard just above the garage door. I
seriously doubt that there are 14 studs across the top of a single garage
door.

I'd have ripped that wallboard off a long time ago if I couldn't figure out
what was going on behind it. Worst case the OP could add some insulation
and feel better about ripping the wallboard off.

[Danny D.]

On Wed, 21 Nov 2012 04:40:08 +0000, DerbyDad03 wrote:

> There's 14 mud splotches in the wallboard just above the garage door. I
> seriously doubt that there are 14 studs across the top of a single garage
> door.

I think we figured out that there is a steel beam at the ceiling
level which also runs down (at least one) side of the garage.

Here is a detailed (large) picture of all I know at the moment:
http://www3.picturepush.com/photo/a/11455651/img/11455651.jpg

There is a 2" thick piece of wood above the door itself (that's
where the 14 mud splotches lie) and along the side of the door.

The ceiling beam apparently has a piece of wood bolted to it
which is what the garage door opener trolley is attached to, and
which the top bolt of the spring end plate angle iron is bolted to.

(Note: The spring end plate is merely bolted to this angle iron.)

The bottom portion of the spring end plate angle iron is screwed
into the wood at the top of the door, and the bottom portion of the
cable drum support is screwed into the wood at the side of the door.

None of this wood appears to be supporting members though.

[Danny D.]

On Tue, 20 Nov 2012 19:54:59 +0000, Danny D. wrote:

> Here is what I think the forces are:
> http://www1.picturepush.com/photo/a/11453754/img/11453754.jpg

New information!

This DASMA spring reference says there is a new solution to
the bending forces on single torsion spring brackets:
http://www.dasma.com/articles/tech/tips33.asp

It says (verbatim):
"For a garage door using a single torsion spring, the spring
bearing bracket ... is subjected to bending back and forth
each time the spring winds and unwinds. This action not only
stresses the bracket and ultimately its fasteners beyond
capacity, but eventually can cause the bearing itself to
fall apart."

One solution to explore might be a different kind of bracket:
"Ken Martin...suggests that a double-flange, side-bearing
bracket be used on single spring doors. He notes that this
[double-flange side-bearing] bracket is normally fastened to
both the top of the horizontal track angle and into the wall"

Googling for "double-flange side-bearing bracket", I don't find
a definitive article - but I'll keep looking as that might be a
solution in and of itself in my special circumstances.

[Vic Smith]

You might be dealing with cheap original hardware. Or poorly
fastened. Never saw a pic that showed if the entire bracket was
moving. or it was just flexing.
One other thing that I noticed taking a look at an older post to look
at the bracket.
DOOR CLOSED:
http://www5.picturepush.com/photo/a/11430038/img/11430038.jpg
DOOR OPEN:
http://www1.picturepush.com/photo/a/11430039/img/11430039.jpg

The spring is wound in the DOOR OPEN pic. Isn't that backwards?
Anyway, I think others have posted pics of their single spring doors
that show the spring bracket stiff.
Seem the torsional forces on that bracket are always going to be no
more than the weight of the door can apply, no matter what spring was
used. Might be wrong on that, I'm not an engineer.
That would point to a too-weak bracket/fastening.
Might be age/fatigue, or poor initial quality.
Personally, I would try a new or fabricated bracket of more strength.
I tend toward fabricated, because it would give me an excuse to buy a
drill press and a band saw. Others might go for welding gear.
But you have to remove that drywall to get at good fastening points.
Others may say fuggetaaboutit, and What, me worry?
Happy Thanksgiving!

[Danny D.]

On Thu, 22 Nov 2012 14:55:46 -0600, Vic Smith wrote:

> You might be dealing with cheap original hardware.

I think I'm definitely dealing with cheap original hardware! :)

> Never saw a pic that showed if the entire bracket was moving.
> or it was just flexing.

I did snap a video - but it's hard to tell, in the video,
exactly what is flexing.
END PLATE: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fHKjGDqz9wE
SPRING PLATE: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DNAfZP1bMQM

> The spring is wound in the DOOR OPEN pic. Isn't that backwards?

This is a difficult thing to get my mind wrapped around.
Pardon me if the explanation below is difficult to decipher.

You are correct that the spring should be close to RELAXED
when the door is open. Well, the spring should be only a 1/4
or 1/2 turn tensioned at the door open position - but that's
close to being relaxed.

However, we have the enigma that force bending the spring
end plate happens ONLY in the door open position. Why?

This caused me a lot of confusion - but I think we have to
consider the situation at the exact point when the spring
was initially BOLTED to the hollow rod. The spring was
bolted to the hollow rod AFTER it grew 7 coils.

So, the paradox is that the FORCE on the end plate now
occurs NOT when the spring is tensioned - but when it is
RELAXED.

This is a counter intuitive conclusion - but it's the only
explanation that makes sense when trying to explain WHY the
force is greatest when the spring is in the relaxed position.

If I'm wrong - please correct me as I'm also trying to figure
out why the forces appear greatest when the spring is most
relaxed!

[Danny D.]

On Thu, 22 Nov 2012 14:55:46 -0600, Vic Smith wrote:

> others have posted pics of their single spring doors
> that show the spring bracket stiff.

Actually, according to Dan at DDM Garage Doors, no spring anchor
bracket is strong enough to withstand the forces from the relaxed
spring.

In fact, Dan told me by phone that he has seen entire cripple studs
ripped out of walls by these forces on the spring anchor bracket.

If I understood Dan correctly, what prevents the spring anchor
bracket from moving is NOT the mounting of the spring anchor bracket.
What prevents the spring anchor bracket from moving is the lack of
movement in the two bearing end plates.

I don't quite UNDERSTAND that - but - Dan told me there is no way
my spring anchor bracket would be moving unless the bearing end
plates were also moving. He did not know about the air under my
bearing end plates - so he surmised the fact that the bearing end
plates were moving solely from the fact the spring anchor bracket
was moving.

The interesting thing is that, while I can see the spring anchor
bracket movement ... I can not see the bearing end plate movement:

END PLATE: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fHKjGDqz9wE
SPRING PLATE: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DNAfZP1bMQM

But, Dan knew that the bearing end plate was moving.

I don't quite understand this ... but Dan's experience must be
respected so I assume he's 100% correct. Especially since we all
realize there is air underneath both of the bearing end plates.

[Danny D.]

On Thu, 22 Nov 2012 14:55:46 -0600, Vic Smith wrote:

> Personally, I would try a new or fabricated bracket of more strength.

According to Dan, even a stronger spring anchor bracket would
eventually fail unless I also fixed the flexing of the bearing
end plates.

Of course, the spring anchor bracket is installed badly - so that's
not helping things.

> But you have to remove that drywall to get at good fastening points.

When the parts arrive from DDM Garage Doors, I plan on moving the
spring anchor bracket angle iron 18" to the left so that it is
mounted directly onto the cripple stud.

At the same time, I will (somehow) shore up the bearing end plates
by either tying them to the studs a foot and a half distant ... or
I will tie them to the steel horizontal track.

I'm waiting for the parts from Dan at DDM Garage Doors, who has
already figured out what I need to do (even though I haven't figured
it out yet).

[Danny D.]

On Thu, 22 Nov 2012 14:55:46 -0600, Vic Smith wrote:

> Happy Thanksgiving!

Happy Thanksgiving to you too!

I made pumpkin pie, from scratch!
http://www3.picturepush.com/photo/a/11469271/img/11469271.jpg

The kids wouldn't touch it ... even though it used their carved
pumpkins for the guts ... and they loved the seeds ... but they
just wouldn't touch my 'experimental' pumpkin pie!

Oh well ... yet another family day!

[Danny D.]

On Sat, 17 Nov 2012 19:17:25 +0000, Danny D. wrote:

> Seems to me, I was expecting a center bearing.

Dan Musick of DDM Garage Doors kindly sent me the following
repair kit, based on my photos and discussions with him.
http://www2.picturepush.com/photo/a/11482140/img/11482140.jpg

Two 12" angle iron, 1 1/4"
Two 3" long lag bolts
Two Teks bolts
One freeway bearing (for 2" spring ID with 1" hollow rod)
One 5/16" carriage bolt with nut

The part of Dan's ad-hoc kit that I understand is the
"Freeway, Cleveland Ohio, ABF" bearing for the spring end
plate and a short carriage bolt to better attach the existing
spring end plate to the existing angle iron.

However, I'm not sure how I'm supposed to use the remaining
two angle irons and two 3-inch-long lag bolts and two
"teks" self-drilling screws though... but Dan did kindly
send the following two pictures along with the email earlier
in the week that said the repair kit was on the way:
http://www2.picturepush.com/photo/a/11482270/img/11482270.jpg
http://www1.picturepush.com/photo/a/11482274/img/11482274.jpg

Do you have a better idea of what Dan's trying to tell me to do?
(I called but they're away for the weekend, understandably.)

[Danny D.]

On Sat, 24 Nov 2012 21:03:59 +0000, Danny D. wrote:

> http://www2.picturepush.com/photo/a/11482140/img/11482140.jpg

> http://www2.picturepush.com/photo/a/11482270/img/11482270.jpg
> http://www1.picturepush.com/photo/a/11482274/img/11482274.jpg
> Do you have a better idea of what Dan's trying to tell me to do?

Here's what Dan's email said:
> Your spring anchor bracket is not properly secured, and your
> end bearing plate is leaning, which allows the spring bracket
> to pull.
>
> You need to brace your end bearing plates as shown in the attached
> photos, and you also need to check to make sure there are no gaps
> between the cable drums and bearings
>
> You also need to secure the spring anchor bracket to the angle
> iron beneath it with a carriage bolt and nut at the bottom of
> the spring bracket (you only have one there now), as there is
> nothing behind the dry wall at that location.

So I think I'll try to do this:
1. I'll relocate the torsion spring end plate 18" to the left
onto an existing cripple stud.

For that, I'll use two 3" lag screws to hold the angle iron onto the
stud and I'll use two more 3" lag screws to hold the spring end
plate onto the stud.

I'll also add the Freeway Cleveland Ohio A8F bearing to the spring
end plate.

2. Separately, I'll see if I can either bolt the angle iron Dan
kindly sent me to the wall and to the track, holding the end
bearing plate more securely ... or ... I'll see if I can bolt
the end bearing plate to the nearest stud which is about a foot
and a half outside the door opening. Or both.

Hopefully, that will prevent movement of the spring end plate.

[Danny D.]

On Sat, 24 Nov 2012 21:14:24 +0000, Danny D. wrote:

> 2. Separately, I'll see if I can either bolt the angle iron Dan kindly
> sent me to the wall and to the track, holding the end bearing plate more
> securely

I just tried it and I really don't see how Dan's angle iron will
help me shore up the end bearing plates.

I think I'll head off to a big-box store to get a flat 3" wide
metal plate, 18" long. I can Teks screw one end of that plate
to the uppermost few inches of the vertical track; the other
end can be lag screwed into the stud 18" toward the corner.

Note: I just tested the corner and it does NOT have any wood
underneath it; the corner is a steel beam (so there's no value
in going the additional foot to the corner).

I can do the same for the other side, only with a shorter
11 1/4" long 3" wide steel plate, where I can Teks screw
the two garage door upper tracks together and to a stud
beneath them in the center post between the two garage doors.

[Danny D.]

On Sat, 24 Nov 2012 22:04:25 +0000, Danny D. wrote:

> I just tried it and I really don't see how Dan's angle iron
> will help me shore up the end bearing plates.

Bad news.

It's worse than I thought.

Here are some pictures after I disassembled the garage
door overhead apparatus and tried to shore it up with steel.

Here's the overall picture with the apparatus removed:
http://www2.picturepush.com/photo/a/11499725/img/11499725.jpg

Here's is the relocation of the spring anchor plate:
http://www2.picturepush.com/photo/a/11499510/img/11499510.jpg

Here is a closeup of that spring anchor plate relocation:
http://www3.picturepush.com/photo/a/11499496/img/11499496.jpg

Here is a picture of my attempt to secure the right end plate:
http://www2.picturepush.com/photo/a/11499495/img/11499495.jpg

Here I try to shore up the left bearing end plate:
http://www5.picturepush.com/photo/a/11499553/img/11499553.jpg

The good news is that I have a new spring anchor plate bearing.

[Danny D.]

On Sat, 17 Nov 2012 19:17:25 +0000, Danny D. wrote:

> My single-spring 7'wide garage door doesn't have a center bearing.
> http://www3.picturepush.com/photo/a/11428496/img/11428496.jpg

It does now!
http://www3.picturepush.com/photo/a/11529846/img/11529846.jpg

Thanks to Dan Musick of DDM Garage Doors, who mailed me a free bearing
when I showed him that picture above.

Interestingly, the center bearing at the spring anchor plate
is exactly the same as the two end plate bearings.

[Danny D.]

[Danny D.]

[Danny D.]

Sorry about the duplicates. I'm having a problem with my proxy.

[Danny D.]

On Sat, 17 Nov 2012 19:17:25 +0000, Danny D. wrote:

> My single-spring 7'wide garage door doesn't have a center bearing.
> http://www3.picturepush.com/photo/a/11428496/img/11428496.jpg

> Is that normal not to have a center bearing?
> http://www4.picturepush.com/photo/a/11428497/img/11428497.jpg
> I have a bearing on each end, but no center bearing?
> http://www3.picturepush.com/photo/a/11428516/img/11428516.jpg
> The reason I ask is that the center, when hand spun, with no weight on
> it other than the loose spring, has about a 1/4 inch sag in the center.
> http://www5.picturepush.com/photo/a/11428533/img/11428533.jpg

I bought some 5/8" nuts and bolted the steel plate to the garage framing
so now the garage door is as tight as it will ever get.
http://www4.picturepush.com/photo/a/11639622/img/11639622.jpg

The strange thing was that there was absolutely no substantial wood
anywhere near the top of the garage door. Even the lag bolts of the
vertical tracks, all of which I had removed when I removed the tracks,
were barely holding onto skinny boards of wood.

Clearly the original garage door installers were faced with the same
dilemma I was because they left the top three or four holes in the
vertical track totally empty. That meant the last foot and a half wasn't
secured to anything, and the bottom half was barely connected to flimsy
wood. Now it's all tight as a drum!

There is now a center bearing, which, incidentally, is exactly the same
make and size as the bearings in each of the bearing end plates.

Thanks for all your help and advice.
a) I'm sorry people got angry when I didn't rip open the walls.
b) I'm positive there is absolutely no substantial wood anywhere above
and to the sides of the doorway.
c) Ripping out the walls would have only confirmed what I knew (and what
the original installers were faced with).

In the end, I had to decide between what Dan Musick recommended (e.g.,
steel bracing) and what some of you recommended (e.g., 3/4 inch plywood).

I went with what Dan suggested - and I'm truly sorry I bothered peopile
when I didn't rip out the walls as some of you suggested so that's why I
went dark when people got irate about that.

I thank you all for your help - and hope that any summary I can give will
help the next person faced with the same or similar dilemma.