chandelier fell, who's responsible?
John Galbreath Jr.
dav...@nospam.com wrote:
>
> You might have to sue yourself!!!!
>
> From the description, I theorize that a heavy chandelier was
> installed onto a common plastic outlet box designed for std. light
> fixtures. Did your electrical plans specify this outlet as heavy
> duty weight load? If it was spec'd but not installed than you might
> be able to go after the electrician. If not, the electrician is not
> responsible as he did what he was supposed to. (follow plans/code)
>
> I don't see that the builder was responsible. It sounds like he
> simply did this as a favor and as such only has to use reasonable care
> since he wasn't paid specifically to hang the fixture. (since he's
> not an expert electrician and since it lasted 6 months that sounds
> like reasonable care to me)
>
> You can't go after the cleaning person because it's not his fault the
> fixture was improperly hung.
>
> I doubt homeowners insurance covers improperly installed fixtures.
>
> Enjoy your new home, right if off as part of the new home experience.
> Worse things could have happened.
>
> On Mon, 10 Nov 1997 15:01:11 -0500, Joe Ryan <rbn...@rohmhaas.com>
> wrote:
>
> >I recently had a brand new house built. The builder told me If I bought
> >a chandelier, he would hang it for me while the scaffolding was up for
> >sheetrock installation. I obliged. I've been in the house for 6 months
> >and was having a house-warming party this weekend. I had a friend
> >(professional window cleaner with 15ft A frame ladder) come over and
> >wipe it down for the party. 3 seconds after sprayed the windex on it
> >he wiped it and it came crashing down to the floor.
> >
> >I called the builder, and he said it has been fine for all this
> >time(6mnths) and he was not responsible. He says the cleaner person
> >caused the accident. I was there, it could have easily been me cleaning
> >it. The builder said, call your homeowners insurance, that's what there
> >for. Estimated damages 3-4K, builder never came by to inspect the
> >damage, I want to sue....ANybody have any ideas as to who is liable,
> >comments, experiences. I just bought the house, I did nothing.
> >Lawyers?//
I agree with this posted EXCEPT for the insurance. Insurance varies
from company to company and state to state. Contact your insurance
agent. After all, it was an accident.
--
John Galbreath Jr.
ABSCO Fireplace & Patio
http://www.ABSCOFireplace.com
mailto:Jo...@ABSCOFireplace.com
Joe Ryan
I recently had a brand new house built. The builder told me If I bought
a chandelier, he would hang it for me while the scaffolding was up for
sheetrock installation. I obliged. I've been in the house for 6 months
and was having a house-warming party this weekend. I had a friend
(professional window cleaner with 15ft A frame ladder) come over and
wipe it down for the party. 3 seconds after sprayed the windex on it
he wiped it and it came crashing down to the floor.
I called the builder, and he said it has been fine for all this
time(6mnths) and he was not responsible. He says the cleaner person
caused the accident. I was there, it could have easily been me cleaning
it. The builder said, call your homeowners insurance, that's what there
for. Estimated damages 3-4K, builder never came by to inspect the
damage, I want to sue....ANybody have any ideas as to who is liable,
comments, experiences. I just bought the house, I did nothing.
Lawyers?//
--
"Opinions expressed are mine and not those of Rohm and Haas Company"
dav...@nospam.com
You might have to sue yourself!!!!
From the description, I theorize that a heavy chandelier was
installed onto a common plastic outlet box designed for std. light
fixtures. Did your electrical plans specify this outlet as heavy
duty weight load? If it was spec'd but not installed than you might
be able to go after the electrician. If not, the electrician is not
responsible as he did what he was supposed to. (follow plans/code)
I don't see that the builder was responsible. It sounds like he
simply did this as a favor and as such only has to use reasonable care
since he wasn't paid specifically to hang the fixture. (since he's
not an expert electrician and since it lasted 6 months that sounds
like reasonable care to me)
You can't go after the cleaning person because it's not his fault the
fixture was improperly hung.
I doubt homeowners insurance covers improperly installed fixtures.
Enjoy your new home, right if off as part of the new home experience.
Worse things could have happened.
On Mon, 10 Nov 1997 15:01:11 -0500, Joe Ryan <rbn...@rohmhaas.com>
wrote:
>I recently had a brand new house built. The builder told me If I bought
beth
I can only offer you my experience: when we bought our newly built home 3
years ago, our builder was responsible for the warranty for the first
year, then it rolled over to our 10 yr. homeowners' warranty.
If your real estate agent who helped you purchase the home was as helpful
as mine, you may want to contact him/her for an opinion. Also, try posting
your situation in alt.lawyers.sue.sue.sue for a few opinions.
Best wishes,
beth
In article <346768...@rohmhaas.com>, rbn...@RohmHaas.com wrote:
>I recently had a brand new house built. The builder told me If I bought
>a chandelier, he would hang it for me while the scaffolding was up for
>sheetrock installation. I obliged. I've been in the house for 6 months
>and was having a house-warming party this weekend. I had a friend
>(professional window cleaner with 15ft A frame ladder) come over and
>wipe it down for the party. 3 seconds after sprayed the windex on it
>he wiped it and it came crashing down to the floor.
>
>I called the builder, and he said it has been fine for all this
>time(6mnths) and he was not responsible. He says the cleaner person
>caused the accident. I was there, it could have easily been me cleaning
>it. The builder said, call your homeowners insurance, that's what there
>for. Estimated damages 3-4K, builder never came by to inspect the
>damage, I want to sue....ANybody have any ideas as to who is liable,
>comments, experiences. I just bought the house, I did nothing.
>Lawyers?//
Jon Shemitz
dav...@nospam.com wrote:
> Joe Ryan <rbn...@rohmhaas.com> wrote:
>
> >I recently had a brand new house built. The builder told me If I bought
> >a chandelier, he would hang it for me while the scaffolding was up for
> >sheetrock installation. I obliged. I've been in the house for 6 months
> >and was having a house-warming party this weekend. I had a friend
> >(professional window cleaner with 15ft A frame ladder) come over and
> >wipe it down for the party. 3 seconds after sprayed the windex on it
> >he wiped it and it came crashing down to the floor.
>
> installed onto a common plastic outlet box designed for std. light
> fixtures. Did your electrical plans specify this outlet as heavy
> duty weight load? If it was spec'd but not installed than you might
> be able to go after the electrician. If not, the electrician is not
> responsible as he did what he was supposed to. (follow plans/code)
I'm not sure that I buy this reasoning. This is a high ceiling; any
chandelier that you hang from it might be expected to be rather large,
to fit the space. Putting an outlet box that can't support a large,
heavy chandelier is pretty stupid, imho. (*Even if* Joe didn't
explicitly specify it, the elctrician should have realized that over the
life of the house, someone might well want to put a large, heavy
chandelier in that space. Changing the outlet box is not something that
most people routinely do when changing lighting fixtures!)
Also imho, a ceiling mount lighting fixture ought to be able to support
the weight of an adult or two. "Swinging from the chendeliers" is sort
of idiomatic for a wild party; I doubt that most people's image includes
pulling the fixture from the ceiling! Similarly "doing it in a
chandelier" ....
--
Personal Pages http://www.midnightbeach.com/jon
Programming Publications http://www.midnightbeach.com/jon/pubs
Homeschool Resource Page http://www.midnightbeach.com/hs
Ron McNeil ,RBD ,AScT
> No, the electrician doesn't guess at future uses!!
>
> The electrician is repsponsible for following the plans and adhereing
> to prevailing codes requirements period!!
>
> On Tue, 11 Nov 1997 10:27:31 -0800, Jon Shemitz
>
> the elctrician should have realized that over the
> >life of the house, someone might well want to put a large, heavy
> >chandelier in that space.
A good electrician will walk the home at rough-in with the homeowner
and confirm type of fixtures, for example heavy applications like
chandeliers, ceiling fans, etc. Often they review heights and switch
locations and mark them on the walls as they review each room.
They aren't obligated to do so though, so legally you may not have a leg
to stand on as the "buildier" could claim there are no specs on the plan
and he would have no knowledge necessarily of fixture arrangements
between you and the electrician. Sadly you may not have any legal
recourse. What did the electrician have to say himself ? Good luck.
--
Ron McNeil, RBD, AScT
^ ^ ^
McNeil Building Designs Limited
http://www.islandnet.com/~dzynr/
hidda
My electrician who worked on my rental unit suggested we go with metal
ceiling boxes because ceiling fans are popular around here. Even though
I had no intention of installing ceiling fans, he convinced me that a
future tenant may want to and I'd be better off if I went metal at
construction. As luck would have it, the first tenant installed ceiling
fans.
Any electrician worth his pay will suggest metal if non-metal was spec'd
in the plans.
He also convinced me to install more outlets than code required just to
cut down on the use of extension cords.
Auctor Ignotus
On Mon, 10 Nov 1997 21:47:48 GMT, dav...@nospam.com wrote:
>You might have to sue yourself!!!!
>
>From the description, I theorize that a heavy chandelier was
>installed onto a common plastic outlet box designed for std. light
>fixtures. Did your electrical plans specify this outlet as heavy
>duty weight load? If it was spec'd but not installed than you might
>be able to go after the electrician. If not, the electrician is not
>responsible as he did what he was supposed to. (follow plans/code)
>
>I don't see that the builder was responsible. It sounds like he
>simply did this as a favor and as such only has to use reasonable care
>since he wasn't paid specifically to hang the fixture. (since he's
>not an expert electrician and since it lasted 6 months that sounds
>like reasonable care to me)
>
>You can't go after the cleaning person because it's not his fault the
>fixture was improperly hung.
>
>I doubt homeowners insurance covers improperly installed fixtures.
>
>Enjoy your new home, right if off as part of the new home experience.
>Worse things could have happened.
>
What are you talking about? This is America. It's ALWAYS someone
else's fault! ;-)
dav...@nospam.com
Yes, the manufacturer of the $.39 plastic outlet box that did not
provide a 10 page safety manual describing that it can't hold a 100#
load!!
I guess that poor chandeleir wasn't very "Well Hung"!!.
Degerberg
>The builder said, call your homeowners insurance, that's what there
>for. Estimated damages 3-4K,
The builder's suggestion is a good one. Check with your insurance company on
your Home Owner's Policy. They are the ones who will pay off.
Grandfather Bob(dege...@aol.com)
Modesty in the face of talent is hypocrisy.
Better honest arrogance than false modesty
JamesDthDJ
>I recently had a brand new house built. The builder told me If I bought
>a chandelier, he would hang it for me while the scaffolding was up for
>sheetrock installation.
Once the builder agreed to hang it, he assumed the responsibilty for seeing
that it was up correctly it would seem to me. He's supposed to be the
"expert", and should have seen that it was done correctly. If, as another
post suggests, it was simply stuck on a plastic outlet box, there's a good
chance that's what brought it down. The electrician also should have had an
idea that this wouldn't work, but, the builder is the one generally
responsible for overseeing. I'd call my homeowners insurance and see what
they suggest.
Jim Dean
dav...@nospam.com
If the builder agreed to do this as a favor while he was on the
scaffold hanging sheetrock, than he isn't held to the same standards
as he would be if hanging the light fixtures was part of his formal
contract with the homeowner.
He only needs to provide reasonable care if he agreed to do this for
free.
If it was an integral part of the contract, than he has to perform
the job in a professional/workmanlike manner. If he doesn't have the
skills to determine if this was reliable, than he should have
subcontracted expertise from the electrician.
I interpreted the first scenario based on the original post.
Vimala Siddalingaiah
For the first year problems the builder is defenitely responsible. When
we moved into our newly built home the aluminium siding was torn off by
the wind. When we told the builder who was still around building the
houses he said the same thing - go to the home owners insurance. It may
be covered by the insurance but if you really need to report some other
problems and so on and so forth the premiums go up. We told him that
we were not going to go the insurance and if the house has any problems as
they have said in the waranty it is their responsibility and they need to
fix it. So they did fix it. If you do go to insurance there is
deductible as well.
In any case whether it was favour or what ever he should have known better
to install a chandelier in a secured way. It is his responsibility to
build the house or put the things in the house so that no one gets hurt or
things do not just fall off.
When you do choose fixtures they do tell you what you can use and what you
cannot use. He should have told you what the capacity is and warned you
before you have him put it up if it was unacceptable for the electrical
holder to hold anything of heavy nature. He is the experienced builder
right and he got paid to do the job.
What if the cleaning fellow were to get seriously hurt?
Joe Ryan (rbn...@rohmhaas.com) wrote:
: I recently had a brand new house built. The builder told me If I bought
: a chandelier, he would hang it for me while the scaffolding was up for
: sheetrock installation. I obliged. I've been in the house for 6 months
: and was having a house-warming party this weekend. I had a friend
: (professional window cleaner with 15ft A frame ladder) come over and
: wipe it down for the party. 3 seconds after sprayed the windex on it
: he wiped it and it came crashing down to the floor.
: I called the builder, and he said it has been fine for all this
: time(6mnths) and he was not responsible. He says the cleaner person
: caused the accident. I was there, it could have easily been me cleaning
: it. The builder said, call your homeowners insurance, that's what there
: for. Estimated damages 3-4K, builder never came by to inspect the
Joe Ryan
David Winslow wrote:
>
> It just occured to me, even a plastic box is not going to fall out of the
> ceiling from the fixture's weight! Even those adjustable steel bracket
> things would hold it, or tear half the sheetrock out. There is more to
> this, maybe the mounting screws rattled loose, or the box was never
> mounted right, but no way could a properly mounted box get ripped out from
> the weight of a chandelier. Maybe the original poster would give us some
> details.
I am the original poster. The fixture was hung using a heavy duty
fan mounting box and bracket assembly. The sheetrock,bracket, screws
and everything are perfectly intact. The idiot electrician, never
tightened the retaining nut for the hook that the chain hangs on. Thats
it, no mechanical failure only 1 thread turn from disaster.
The new installer told me you would have to spin the light fixture at
least 11 times to unthread the mounting hook. And you would really
have to kill yourself spinning because there is a jamb nut against the
threads of the threaded hooking assembly. Furthermore, the electrician
and I use the term loosely is neither, licensed, bonded, certified,
or any of the terms some of the union guys are. He is basically
the allout handy man for the builder. He paints interiors, rough wires,
drives a bulldozer, etc....Now in our township, we have building
inspectors just like everybody else. Basically they check to see
GFI's, Circuit breaker, ground rods, and the like. This guy was shown
the ropes by a real electrician, but doesn't have the 5-10 yrs. exper.
or credentials, that a certified elec. would have, or the training.
This I believe is where the builder may be on the lamb.
The whole fiasco could have been avoided just by tightening the
mounting nut to the threaded rod on the junction box. Yes the insurance
co. is going to take care of me,after the 500 ded. I did nothing.
The new installeer said this should easily support 2x the chand. wght.
He guaranteed the installation, safety, and told me he has never needed
to use his liability insurance in 22yrs of business.....First class...
He also said there is no way this thing could've fallen down if
fastened properly.
H. Myler
> From the description, I theorize that a heavy chandelier was
> installed onto a common plastic outlet box designed for std. light
> fixtures. Did your electrical plans specify this outlet as heavy
> duty weight load? If it was spec'd but not installed than you might
> be able to go after the electrician. If not, the electrician is not
> responsible as he did what he was supposed to. (follow plans/code)
Whoever the builder had hang the fixture should have known better. The
builder accepted a level of responsibility by agreeing to do the job and
that responsibility includes doing the task by code. Any electrician that
hangs a heavy chandelier into a plastic zip box needs to be sued and have
his license revoked. Should have known better--period.
Of course, we are assuming that this was the case (plastic zip or
whatever). The insurance company should send an adjuster out to look at
the damage and assess exactly what happened. Could be a manufacturing
defect in the fixture.
> I don't see that the builder was responsible. It sounds like he
> simply did this as a favor and as such only has to use reasonable care
> since he wasn't paid specifically to hang the fixture. (since he's
> not an expert electrician and since it lasted 6 months that sounds
> like reasonable care to me)
Nice try--the builder built the house and had a responsibility to insure
that everything he did (or his subs) was by code and safe--regardless of
whether or not it was a favor. Lasting six months has nothing to do with
it. The fixture could have been working free from a poor mounting all of
that time.
> You can't go after the cleaning person because it's not his fault the
> fixture was improperly hung.
I have to agree with this, the cleaning was just the final straw for the
fixture.
sec at nbnet dot nb dot ca
>he wiped it and it came crashing down to the floor.
If it crashed all the way to the 'floor' then it obviously didn't have
the additional safety anchor attached to the joist either (I assume
there was one on a fixture this heavy). This is probably explained in
the mounting instructions for the fixture. If this is the case the
person who installed it, did it wrong and is responsible, IMHO!
s...@nbnet.nb.ca
http://personal.nbnet.nb.ca/sec/
'He will wipe away all tears from their eyes.'
- Rev 21:4
danh...@millcomm.com
In <346A46...@rohmhaas.com>, Joe Ryan <rbn...@rohmhaas.com> writes:
>David Winslow wrote:
>>
>> It just occured to me, even a plastic box is not going to fall out of the
>> ceiling from the fixture's weight! Even those adjustable steel bracket
>> things would hold it, or tear half the sheetrock out. There is more to
>> this, maybe the mounting screws rattled loose, or the box was never
>> mounted right, but no way could a properly mounted box get ripped out from
>> the weight of a chandelier. Maybe the original poster would give us some
>> details.
>I am the original poster. The fixture was hung using a heavy duty
>fan mounting box and bracket assembly. The sheetrock,bracket, screws
>and everything are perfectly intact. The idiot electrician, never
>tightened the retaining nut for the hook that the chain hangs on. Thats
>it, no mechanical failure only 1 thread turn from disaster.
I think in most places the code allows an unlicensed person to do
incidental fixture installation such as this, and a lot of contractors
probably have a handyman that does this sort of thing. So I don't think
there was necessarily a code violation on that account. But the guy was
clearly an idiot, or just grossly careless.
You might ask your insurance company if they want to try to collect from
the contractor. Tell them you'll agree to support them if they do.
Dan Hicks
Hey!! My advice is free -- take it for what it's worth!
http://www.millcomm.com/~danhicks
Andrew Noble
In article <346A46...@rohmhaas.com>, rbn...@RohmHaas.com wrote:
> The idiot electrician, never tightened the retaining nut for the hook
that the chain hangs on. Thats
>...Furthermore, the electrician and I use the term loosely is neither,
licensed, bonded, certified,
>or any of the terms some of the union guys are. He is basically the
allout handy man for the builder.
>....Now in our township, we have building inspectors just like everybody
else. Basically they check to see
>GFI's, Circuit breaker, ground rods, and the like...
I'm not a lawyer and I don't purport to provide you with legal advice.
I am however, a licensed Architect in Texas and am familiar with
Architect/Contractor/Subcontractor laws in Texas and North Carolina.
1. Do you have any contract with the "contractor"?
€ Lines of responsibility follow lines of payment. You provide payment
directly to the contractor who is directly responsible to you. Likewise,
the contractor provides payment to the subcontractor
(Electrician/Handyman) who is, in turn, responsible to the contractor. In
this case, your arguement is with the contractor. He may have an
arguement with his subcontractor afterwards.
€ The contractor makes his money overseeing his tradesmen on a
project. He insures that their perfomance is to spec, (not always to code
if you have a designer of some sort). He also assumes the risk for their
performance, and in compensation, makes a profit from the contract.
€ A contractor is not necessarily a "licensed professional". Such
professions are held beyond the terms of a contract and must answer to
negligence. Ideas such as "should have known better" generally don't have
much application unless a person is within the legal definition of a
professional. "Contractors" commonly are not. They are held to the
extent of the contract.
If you do not have a contract with this "Contractor" you might be out of
luck, although I'd check with a lawyer to see if you have an oral
contract. You do have some recourse to encourage the contractor to fix
the mistakes of his hirlings. You may file complaints with the Better
Business Bureau and any other state-licensing boards that may apply. The
bad press alone might persuade him contribute some/all of the cost of
fixing the damage.
His statements of a six-month statute of limitations are without merit.
His man made the mistake, he was paid to do the job correctly, he hasn't
fulfilled that obligation, and he has the responsibility to make it
right. If he complains that he has to make a living and this is cutting
into his earnings to eat, etc., tell him to go after his man that screwed
up for compensation (this is not uncommon in the trade). Bottom line is,
it's not your mistake and that you justifyably relied on him to do the job
right in the first place.
2. Any thought of chasing after the building inspector is wasted effort.
Even if this was a situation where the inspector was required to inspect
it, tag it pass/fail, and failed to do so, you don't have much chance of
the city taking any responsibility for your accident. And this doesn't
sound like the city had any obligation to specifically inspect the proper
installation of an appliance so far out of the line of sight.
Hope this helps.
--
Andrew M. Noble III, Architect
amn.N...@fastlane.net <www.fastlane.net/homepages/amn>
~~~
Believe in Macintosh? For good news, check out:
<http://www.evangelist.macaddict.com/>