GFCI resolution

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Ed Pawlowski

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Nov 19, 2021, 7:35:03 PM11/19/21
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A few days ago I asked about a GFCI situation in my granddaughter's RV.
Found the problem. Well, I didn't find it but a pro that works on RVs did.

There was a wire to a different receptacle that was evidently damaged
from the current draw. One that was replace, power came back to the two
by the sink. There was a third that was also out but that was from a
bad receptacle and it was replaced by a real home type instead of the RV
type. It was a potential fire hazard.

Also found the problem with the refrigerator, bad circuit board, that is
on order.

If you never worked on and RV, they are different that what you are used
to at home. The fridge is a dual fuel, propane or electric. The
electric also has a dual 12V and 120V on some items. especially
lighting. The receptacles are different too and have a system that cut
into the insulation, no screws, no backstab.

https://tinyurl.com/4k2kksd7
and
https://www.rvpartscountry.com/20-AMP-Receptacle-White_p_34871.html

micky

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Nov 19, 2021, 8:47:32 PM11/19/21
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In alt.home.repair, on Fri, 19 Nov 2021 19:34:57 -0500, Ed Pawlowski
<e...@snet.xxx> wrote:

>A few days ago I asked about a GFCI situation in my granddaughter's RV.
>Found the problem. Well, I didn't find it but a pro that works on RVs did.

That's good. One time my brother's stepson said that he washed my
brother's car. Later I found out he took it to a car wash. I'm still
trying to decide if his words were misleading.
>
>There was a wire to a different receptacle that was evidently damaged
>from the current draw. One that was replace, power came back to the two
>by the sink. There was a third that was also out but that was from a
>bad receptacle and it was replaced by a real home type instead of the RV

They have cheapo receptacles in RVs?

>type. It was a potential fire hazard.
>
>Also found the problem with the refrigerator, bad circuit board, that is
>on order.
>
>If you never worked on and RV, they are different that what you are used
>to at home. The fridge is a dual fuel, propane or electric. The
>electric also has a dual 12V and 120V on some items. especially
>lighting. The receptacles are different too and have a system that cut
>into the insulation, no screws, no backstab.
>
>https://tinyurl.com/4k2kksd7

Hmmmp. Is this just because they fit in thinner walls? Yet you were
able to replace one with a home type.

>and
>https://www.rvpartscountry.com/20-AMP-Receptacle-White_p_34871.html

Ed Pawlowski

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Nov 19, 2021, 9:04:25 PM11/19/21
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Thee is enough space to put a shallow box but the wall covering
themselves are thinner than the typical sheetrock house.

Clare Snyder

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Nov 19, 2021, 9:05:57 PM11/19/21
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On Fri, 19 Nov 2021 19:34:57 -0500, Ed Pawlowski <e...@snet.xxx> wrote:

The smart move with the refer is to buy circiut boards in pairs so
you don't need to wait for the NEXT replacement. The aftermarket
boards are beter than the originals, but THAT isn't saying much!!!!

Clare Snyder

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Nov 19, 2021, 9:09:03 PM11/19/21
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On Fri, 19 Nov 2021 20:47:26 -0500, micky <NONONO...@fmguy.com>
wrote:
The RV shite doesn't even use a J-Box. Some, like the second one
shown, are insulation displacement units that just "srimp" onto the
wire - - -

micky

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Nov 19, 2021, 11:54:52 PM11/19/21
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In alt.home.repair, on Fri, 19 Nov 2021 21:04:20 -0500, Ed Pawlowski
I'd rather have the thing stick out a half inch or an inch than use
markedly inferior receptacles.

gfre...@aol.com

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Nov 20, 2021, 12:11:52 AM11/20/21
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On Fri, 19 Nov 2021 19:34:57 -0500, Ed Pawlowski <e...@snet.xxx> wrote:

Cool. Glad it was something easy and you know what to look for now.

gfre...@aol.com

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Nov 20, 2021, 12:25:32 AM11/20/21
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On Fri, 19 Nov 2021 20:47:26 -0500, micky <NONONO...@fmguy.com>
wrote:

The drop bin receptacles at HD are smaller than the RV thing Ed
showed, if you use the side screws they would be fine. You just have
to dress the wires carefully.
If it was stabbed you can't dress the wires properly, the bend is too
tight and you "spring" the spring that let you stab.

That is the real problem with the back stabbers.

I have never been a fan of IDC connectors but the RV/Trailer business
loves them. In this application the charm is the wire comes out to the
side and they are easier to dress. You are not really screwing with
the IDC if the cover is on right. It clamps the insulation.
Think of a Keystone you punch down a Cat 5/6 into and close the lid.
That is a pretty secure connection.

This punch block is rated 120v 20a.

gfre...@aol.com

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Nov 20, 2021, 12:37:27 AM11/20/21
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On Fri, 19 Nov 2021 23:54:47 -0500, micky <NONONO...@fmguy.com>
Put a wiremold box over it, that gives you about an inch and it is
listed and doesn't look horrible.

Bob F

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Nov 20, 2021, 12:52:43 AM11/20/21
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But you assume the correct ones are not safer.

micky

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Nov 20, 2021, 5:06:49 AM11/20/21
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In alt.home.repair, on Fri, 19 Nov 2021 21:52:37 -0800, Bob F
Maybe I misunderstood but Ed gave me that impression.

Ed Pawlowski

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Nov 20, 2021, 8:10:07 AM11/20/21
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The RV ones are OK from the factory but do not lend themselves to be
worked on as easily as a residential doe to the way the wires are
inserted.
Using the residential one are at least as safe as in your house. They
don't stick out of the wall either.

Clare Snyder

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Nov 21, 2021, 2:04:30 AM11/21/21
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In a LOT of RVs and motor homes the walls are only an inch thick,
with 1/4" or less thicjnes of wall covering. On my last trailer the
walls were 3/4 inch thick and on the last one I workes on they were
about 1 3/4"- 2X2 framing. Some of the "better" unirs use 2X3 - and a
lotof the "aluminum framed" units are 1 1/4 inch

Clare Snyder

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Nov 21, 2021, 2:06:03 AM11/21/21
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On Sat, 20 Nov 2021 05:06:44 -0500, micky <NONONO...@fmguy.com>
The "correct" RV plugs would NEVER pass for use in a "house"

Clare Snyder

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Nov 21, 2021, 2:07:17 AM11/21/21
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In SOME RVs - in others you pretty much need a "surface mount"
switch or box.

gfre...@aol.com

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Nov 21, 2021, 2:10:11 PM11/21/21
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On Sun, 21 Nov 2021 02:05:58 -0500, Clare Snyder <cl...@snyder.on.ca>
wrote:
The NEC and the HUD rules do not apply to RVs and I am not sure they
actually have any regulation other than NHTSA rules about them as a
truck (brakes lights etc). Some companies use that loophole to sell
what you might think is a park model trailer but it is nowhere near
that level of regulation. It is an RV, with tags on it.
Be aware some mobile home parks would not let you set your "RV" there
and some AHJs would not "permit" them as a residence.
My SIL had one and he had to cord and plug connect it to the power
post in an RV spot because the AHJ would not give him a permit to hard
wire it. This was one of those trailers that you take the wheels off
and set on a base but titled as an RV. It was good for him when he
worked for DEP and moved around a lot tho. That loophole let him set
it up on park land.

bud--

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Nov 21, 2021, 10:51:16 PM11/21/21
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??? 90.2-A-1 says the NEC applies to mobile homes and recreational
vehicles.

But the links from Ed were not impressive.

gfre...@aol.com

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Nov 21, 2021, 11:48:37 PM11/21/21
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Perhaps my phrasing was bad. HUD is the enforcing agency for this
stuff and if they are not enforcing the NEC on RV's, who is?

You don't need a permit to work on an RV. That is why the AHJ here
would not let them hardwire my SIL's RV (Not a HUD approved unit). It
was just a piece of cord and plug equipment to them. Maybe something
changed but that was what it was in the early 00s

bud--

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Nov 22, 2021, 10:34:15 AM11/22/21
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Also are NEC articles for RVs and mobile homes. But the NEC, as far as
you are concerned, applies to when the thing is 'installed'. Would think
you would also look at significant changes that are made, but maybe
there aren't any. Replacing furnace or water heater in mobile home?

UL (White Book) has standards for a lot of what is used to manufacture a
unit. The question is who enforces the standards & NEC when
manufactured, which is what you are talking about.

gfre...@aol.com

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Nov 22, 2021, 1:10:04 PM11/22/21
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I am not sure if it got better but there wasn't any recognized testing
lab certifying RVs when this happened unlike HUD that does do plan
review on the design of "mobile homes" and presumably inspects the
factory to be sure they are making the product they certified.
Being in the NEC doesn't mean much without inspection.
The AHJ said without any recognized certification it was just another
unlisted piece of cord and plug equipment. Crusty old fart? maybe but
at the time he was right. It wasn't a big deal. The RV had 2 50a
disconnects and we just had to put back the pigtails so they could
plug it into a regular dual RV post. When they had it up in the
panhandle they just hung a 100a meter main on the side of the RV and
hard wired into 2 50a breakers. The drop went to that. This guy wasn't
going for it. I had already driven 2 rods so we connected the RV frame
to that GEC and I slept fine
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