Maximum track length for Tyco or Lifelike
Bufnstuf
Could someone please tell me(or point me somewhere with this information) what
the maximum safe, efficient track length is for tyco or lifelike track?
Thanks,
Eric
bufn...@aol.com
Richard Fullerton
What do you mean by "safe"? What do you have in mind? Many folks run
large tracks 40'-60' and up with no problems, what are you leary of?
Richard Fullerton
Bufnstuf
I guess I was worried about putting too much strain on the transformer or maybe
blowing a fuse in my electrical box. I'm thinking of going 150'-200' to mimic
NASCARs 2 road coarses.
Thanks,
Eric
bufn...@aol.com
Cindy Murray
set up Watkin's Glen or Sears Point in my living room!
Bufnstuf wrote:
--
Cindy Murray
Dallas, Texas
http://home1.gte.net/mnc1/index.htm
If you don't like my sig line, don't read it! ;-)
Blu Hammer
aproxamatly 90 linear ft per lane...... two full 25 ft long
straitaways.... i wish i had a few pics of it scanned in.... but no such
lluck..... i ran the whole thing on tomy wall packs... one per lane...
made for some serious fun racing.... the track had all the components of
a bunch of tracks... a ''daytona'' like outer oval and a tricky 18
turn interior road course complete with a scale 12 ft drag strip as
one of the three main straitaways...
BluHammer
CobraJet
> Great idea. When you get the layout figured out, would you email me?
I'd LOVE to
> set up Watkin's Glen or Sears Point in my living room!
>
> Bufnstuf wrote:
>
> > I guess I was worried about putting too much strain on the transformer
or maybe
> > blowing a fuse in my electrical box. I'm thinking of going 150'-200'
to mimic
> > NASCARs 2 road coarses.
> > Thanks,
> > Eric
> > bufn...@aol.com
The amperage draw of multiple transformers powering 4 cars on a track
even as long as the one you are contemplating is still negligible. A little
home stereo uses more. I would use more than one transformer, though. Even
with a few jumpers, the already-marginal power packs that are supplied with
these tracks fall short of optimizing performance of the newest crop of DC
motors.
I'm sure there are people in this group with good recommendations on
power supplies. Here are a couple to consider:
Go to an electronics supply store and see what they have in the way of
adjustable voltage *regulated* power supplies. Ideally, one that can adjust
from 12 to 24 volts is best. This way if you are racing newer cars you can
keep the motor heat down by restricting voltage at or below 18 volts. The
older cars are very happy at 24 volts (the original 60's T-Jet manual
mentions 30 volts as maximum safe point), so you can crank it up for them.
Look for an amperage rating between 6 and 10 amps. Although the actual draw
will be much less than this at any one time, the extra headroom will give
substantially better reaction to a car anywhere on a 200 foot track. Or...
You can use two 12 volt car batteries wired in series to get your 24
volts. For indoor use I would look into sealed cells like the Optima brand
to avoid any nasty fumes. In a ventilated garage or such you can standard
configuration batteries. Get a rotary-knob variable resistor of proper
amperage rating and a volt meter to put in-line so you can adjust voltage.
Car batteries provide cleaner DC voltage than transformers, and their
amperage reserve is virtually infinite in regards to powering slot cars.
You can go many, many hours before having to recharge them.
CobraJet
P.S. In the late 60's/early 70's I had a 120-foot two lane track using
two 24-volt Aurora Power Packs, with jumpers approximately midway. Even so,
power was noticeably down at the far ends. Newer motors pull much more
amperage in comparison. Even with a very good power supply, I would
consider jumpers every 25 to 30 feet to keep things even. Motors that have
an abundance of clean power available to them will run cooler and last
longer than those which "fight" to draw their power.
>
>
>
> --
> Cindy Murray
> Dallas, Texas
> http://home1.gte.net/mnc1/index.htm
> If you don't like my sig line, don't read it! ;-)
.
tom delauder sr.
as you run equal lengthed jumper wires from your power source to evenly
spaced spot on the rails..
CobraJet
(JJsound) wrote:
> I find most of your advice to be very correct but I have to take issue with
> this one point. The variable resistor you describe is NOT the proper way to
> reduce your voltage. It will nullify the very reason for your getting some
> batteries or an expensive power supply. If you increase the resistance to
> "drop" some voltage, when your opponent releases his trigger your viltage will
> spike up and your car will speed up at an inopportune time. Sounds like a
cheap
> wall pack doesn't it? You must have a regulator to reduce the voltage while
> providing a constant source voltage under varying current loads.
You are most likely correct in this regard. The only times I have ever
utilized resistors in such a circuit was in instances of fixed draw. When I
get to that point on my track I'll research available parts to get the best
stuff.
CobraJet
.
JJsound
I find most of your advice to be very correct but I have to take issue with
this one point. The variable resistor you describe is NOT the proper way to
reduce your voltage. It will nullify the very reason for your getting some
batteries or an expensive power supply. If you increase the resistance to
"drop" some voltage, when your opponent releases his trigger your viltage will
spike up and your car will speed up at an inopportune time. Sounds like a cheap
wall pack doesn't it? You must have a regulator to reduce the voltage while
providing a constant source voltage under varying current loads.
>Car batteries provide cleaner DC voltage than transformers, and their
>amperage reserve is virtually infinite in regards to powering slot cars.
>You can go many, many hours before having to recharge them.
I know one track that uses a 12 volt and a 6 volt battery in series to get his
18 volts. He has one battery charger for each battery. It works ok.
JJsound
Absolutely correct. The key word you used is "fixed" load. A controller in
series with (and dropping voltage for control of) the car will vary the
opponents voltage wildly especially when you consider the pickup shoes contact
impedence also varies from inch to inch along the complete roadcourse.
If I can be of any guidance in your selection of a suitable power supply please
drop me a line.
I am going to use two switching regulators, one set at 12 volts and one set at
6 volts. When the small kids are on the track I can use just the 12 volt
supply. When the experianced people are using the track I will put the six
volt supply in series through a switch and I will have 18 volts for real rockem
sockem action. Can you say airborne?
John Stefanick
CobraJet
(JJsound) wrote:
I ran a new Tomy car with a lexan body on a 20 foot long oval at 24
volts. Not only can I say airborne, I can say HOT! It was even more fun
after I yanked the DF magnets out. Now, if I can just figure out how to
make the tires smoke like a real car...
By your name, I am assuming you "dabble" in home or auto sound. I
retired recently after 25 years of auto stereo and alarms. Can you say
wood-grained Lear Jet 8-tracks?
Let's get back to the car battery idea for a minute, since I was giving
it some thought today. A typical car battery these days is rated from 500
to 800 cold cranking amps. The typical new HO car pulls up to one amp (
more than an interior light bulb) at full throttle. Do you really think
that the voltage will vary "wildly" with no regulator between the battery
and the controller? I don't think so. Why? I'm glad you asked :)
On many occasions I have hooked up a volt meter to a car's battery to
watch its behavior while a new stereo system is playing, both with and
without the alternator turning. Many of the amplifiers have drawn instant
current in excess of 40 amps or more during massive bass transients. If you
are in this business you know what I mean. Observed dips on a healthy
battery are seldom more than 3 or 4 tenths with a non-running engine. The
starter is the biggest draw of all, and good batteries will not go under 11
volts during a normal duration crank.
I personally don't think that a car battery hooked to a slot car track
without a regulator is going to vary at all. This may hold true with wall
packs where the rated output is not much more than the required amount to
run the cars. But HO motors pull too little to effect the reserve in the
big 12-volters. Any spikes from controller action can be knocked out with
inline capacitors, or by home running each lane's power to the positive
battery terminal.
Of course, nothing beats observable data. I don't have enough
serviceable track left to build one of decent length. Please note my
request for info in my other post. Once something is set up it will be
fairly easy to hook up a couple analog meters and see what happens. Maybe
you can try this on your track?
Rick
>
> John Stefanick
.
David Tunbo
$57.00 each. They are good for 260 amps. With some switches we can get 6
, 12, or 18 volts (depending on who is driving). These are more than
enough power for our commercial 4' x 16' six lane track.
Hope this helps.
David Tunbo
Race World
Plano, Texas
http://rampages.onramp.net/~homepage
home...@onramp.net
CobraJet
(Bufnstuf) wrote:
> I guess I was worried about putting too much strain on the transformer or
maybe
> blowing a fuse in my electrical box. I'm thinking of going 150'-200' to
mimic
> NASCARs 2 road coarses.
The point was to steer you to bigger power supplies, since one
transformer on a track that big ain't gonna work.
CJ
> Thanks,
> Eric
> bufn...@aol.com
.
CobraJet
> We use 3 golf cart batteries. They are available at Sam's Club for
> $57.00 each. They are good for 260 amps. With some switches we can get 6
> , 12, or 18 volts (depending on who is driving). These are more than
> enough power for our commercial 4' x 16' six lane track.
>
> Hope this helps.
Yes it does, David. Are you running the power straight from the
batteries to the controller? If so, are there any noticeable deficiencies
in the performance of the slot cars? Have you ever measured for voltage
drop during multi-car action? How long will they stay at or near 18 volts
with, say, 3 or 4 cars running, before they need a charge? Thanks for any
additional info.
CobraJet
P.S. Can I pick your brain on HO stuff from time to time as I get back
"into gear"?
>
> David Tunbo
> Race World
> Plano, Texas
> http://rampages.onramp.net/~homepage
> home...@onramp.net
.
Dave England
On Thu, 8 Oct 1998, David Tunbo wrote:
> We use 3 golf cart batteries. They are available at Sam's Club for
> $57.00 each. They are good for 260 amps. With some switches we can get 6
> , 12, or 18 volts (depending on who is driving). These are more than
> enough power for our commercial 4' x 16' six lane track.
>
I'd go with a battery charger for home use where you don't need as much
ampherage. But you'd probably want to run some wire jumpers under the
track for even power distribution.
ymmv
Dave
JJsound
Hello Rick,
I do have a habit of hyperbole. Varying wildly was a bit of an overstatement.
Maybe4 0r 8 volts if you use the size of a resistor you will need to drop to 18
volts from 28 volts(assuming we are starting with two 12 volt batteries). The
source impedence of a lead/acid automobile battery is somewhere (I guess) about
0.005 ohms and this is why they are so "stiff" in voltage output when a large
draw is placed apon them. Compare them to maybe 6 to 10 ohms for the typical
stock armature (I may be slightly wrong on the impedence here) the battery is
unaffected by this kind of a load or the car stereo you described in your
reply.
Now place a 5 to10 ohm in series with the battery to drop what you want to
loose and the source impedence of the supply (battery and resistor) go to 5 -10
ohms. Place the armature across the that source impedence and see what the
6-10 ohms will do to the supply voltage. Remember the controller is some times
at zero ohms and some times at 45 ohms as the trigger varies.
The dropping resistor will have to be changed for every lane count that is used
(1-2-3 or 4) and for the impedence of each armature you run. That's about 3
zillion different dropping resistors you will have to have on hand.
A low source impedence = steady supply voltage. I would recommend either a
good regulated power supply of the emitter follower or the switching regulator
variety if you don't want wet cell batteries- OR- 18 volts (more like 21 volts
really) worth of batteries and thier associated chargers. You can get a cheap
volt meter ar Radio Shack to monitor the drain while racing. And please use
some kind of a timer feeding those chargers so you don't end up overcharging
and with electrolyte (acid) bubbling over onto the floor.
Cheers :)
Can you say on your mark... Get set... GOOOOOOOOOO.
CobraJet
England <eng...@eznet.net> wrote:
Good god, Dave, do you know how dirty the voltage is coming out of those
things? There is so much AC-induced crap it's pathetic. Since most of them
are load-sensitive, who knows what they'll do with a constantly varying
draw. I'm sure the car motors won't like that at all. I'm sorry, but a bad
idea. That is why regulated power supplies exist.
Rick
>
> ymmv
>
> Dave
.
CobraJet
(JJsound) wrote:
Just to reiterate a point since you brought up meters and chargers: 25
years in auto electronics and 22 cars (1:1 scale) in my collection right
now. Enough said. Well not quite since you mentioned acid on the floor.
Remember me naming the Optima battery in my earlier post? If you are not
familiar with them, they are completely sealed electrolytic gell cells. No
leaks, no fumes, available in regular and deep cycle versions. As Optima
points out, you can even mount them upside down. (Why do that is anyone's
guess). We have used small 7amp/hr gel cells for alarm backups for years
with good results. I just tossed one that I put into service on my test
bench in 1985.
OK, here's what I decided to do when I get to putting this track
together. Simplicity will be the initial theme. I will run two Optimas in
series for 24 volts run straight to new premium quality controllers. This
voltage will be used for the older slot cars. Another pair of controllers
will be modified with non-conductive positive stops on their resistors
where the wiper position gives an 18-volt reading with a late-model motor
running. If I need to cut voltage more, I'll run a single battery into the
first pair of controllers. A pair of DC panel meters will tell me the story
during action. All terminal connectors will be the gold-plated stuff we use
in the car stereo biz to eliminate impedance buildup from corrosion.
I'll only worry about other hardware if I find substandard performance
to be the result. High reserve regulated variable power supplies are
looking to cost sustantially more than a pair of batteries. Perhaps I'll
yank out a couple in my big cars to test the idea before shelling out for
Optimas (about 100 bucks each).
Right now I still need to find a source for new bulk track. Time to go
buy a current issue of Scale Auto maybe. Talk to you later.
Rick
>
> Cheers :)
>
> Can you say on your mark... Get set... GOOOOOOOOOO.
.
Charles Headlee
>
> I'd go with a battery charger for home use where you don't need as much
> ampherage. But you'd probably want to run some wire jumpers under the
> track for even power distribution.
>
> ymmv
>
> Dave
NO. No. No. No.
Battery chargers leak alot of AC in. This won't hurt a battery, but
will kill DC motors. They also tend to "cycle", meaning the current is
in no way consistent. For home use your best bet is some combination of
6V and/or 12V batteries to get the desired voltage.
Chad
RStanke626
>Dave England wrote:
>
>>
>> I'd go with a battery charger for home use where you don't need as much
>> ampherage. But you'd probably want to run some wire jumpers under the
>> track for even power distribution.
>>
>> ymmv
>>
>> Dave
It is not a good idea to use a charger for a power supply-it's not regulated
that closely and it is certainly not filtered enough for DC motors-too much AC
ripple that will overheat and burn up your cars. It would be better to use
either batteries (6 volt deep cycle in series) or a power supply. One good
source is your local used electronic shop or for batteries go to the local golf
course-sometimes they will give away the batteries that are slightly weak but
still goo for HO cars.
Grandpa Ray
RStanke626@"NOSPAM"aol.com
remove the "NOSPAM" to reply
JJsound
Download Scale Auto's catalog right from the web. I did it and have referred
to it when ordering.
It has been a pleasure "meeting " you here. Happy racing. Write soon and tell
me abour your track.
John Stefanick
JJsound
Gentlemen, May I suggest that -IF- the batteries (even small ones) are
paralleled across the charger the voltage will be smoothed enough to have the
AC component of the power be negligable.
John Stefanick
Charles Headlee
I was wondering about this. I'm laying out plans for a 1/24 8 lane,
and for power I had considered parallel banking 4 large car batteries.
I was curious if, having the batteries in a parallel bus arrangement
would allow me to safely connect the track to one end of the bus, and a
charger to the other.
Chad
eng...@urhep.pas.rochester.edu
muscl...@theirpeak.net (CobraJet) wrote:
> idea. That is why regulated power supplies exist.
>
> Rick
For the record, I have three set packs wired parallel and don't use a battery
charger. However I'm sure the people that do use them would defend themselves.
I believe that the application was home use, so which is better, $150 worth of
batteries or a Charger and shorter lifespan for a $6 pla-fit rabbit motor ?
When I expand my track I'll use a 12V car battery and periodically trickle
charge it as needed. Are battery manufacturers FOS when they warn of volatile
fumes ? I'm curious, but suspect the warnings are there because the US is the
land of litigation.
regards
Dave
http://www.pas.rochester.edu/~england/index.htm
-----------== Posted via Deja News, The Discussion Network ==----------
http://www.dejanews.com/ Search, Read, Discuss, or Start Your Own
RSRM1
Note, there are REGULATED battery chargers out there...and in my basement as
well.
Just because Grandpa's wasn't regulated, does not mean they are all not.
This is an old arguement....I personally have never had a burnout with a
battery charger, nor
known anyone who is using a good one to have a motor fry as a result either.
Have you ever checked the regulation and AC
leakage on set power packs...I have...YIKES!
If worried about it, an inexpensive way to go is a used model railoroaind
power pack of 6 or better amps. Very well regulated and filtered.
Or Radio Shack has a nice 10 amp power supply made for HAM radio use (very
clean power) for
about $100.
But as I said, never had any problems witrh a GOOD battery charger, not
Uncle Ernie's that may have been $2 at a yard sale though..... :-)
Weird Jack
BTW- Yeah, I used to advocate paralleled set packs, until I took a close look
at their specs.
CobraJet
(JJsound) wrote:
John, I believe he was talking about using *only* a battery charger (no
batteries). That is why he got "shocked" (ouch?) by several replies.
I have run battery chargers on cars before while listening to their
stereos with the engine off. The 60-cycle hum is very apparent over the
speakers. I think it best to rest the cars during a recharge.
Rick
.
CobraJet
(JJsound) wrote:
> Download Scale Auto's catalog right from the web. I did it and have referred
> to it when ordering.
I'll check it out, thanks. If they don't have any info on electronic lap
timers, maybe somebody can clue me in.
>
> It has been a pleasure "meeting " you here. Happy racing. Write soon
and tell
> me abour your track.
Same here, and you betcha.
Rick
>
> John Stefanick
.
CobraJet
eng...@urhep.pas.rochester.edu wrote:
> In article <musclecars-ya024080...@news.primenet.com>,
> muscl...@theirpeak.net (CobraJet) wrote:
>
> > idea. That is why regulated power supplies exist.
> >
> > Rick
>
>
> For the record, I have three set packs wired parallel and don't use a battery
> charger. However I'm sure the people that do use them would defend themselves.
>
> I believe that the application was home use, so which is better, $150 worth of
> batteries or a Charger and shorter lifespan for a $6 pla-fit rabbit motor ?
Everybody has a different situation, I'm sure. In my case I have 125 HO
slot cars, about 115 of which are older style, various makes including
Aurora, Tyco. Dynamic, and Riggen. I think it would be good in my case to
get the purest stuff practical to delay replacing stuff like this. They ran
OK in the old days with multiple power packs, but now that I am a geriatric
42, I like to science things out a bit better.
What is a pla-fit rabbit motor? I've been out of this long time. Who
supplies trick aftermarket stuff?
>
> When I expand my track I'll use a 12V car battery and periodically trickle
> charge it as needed. Are battery manufacturers FOS when they warn of volatile
> fumes ? I'm curious, but suspect the warnings are there because the US is the
> land of litigation.
It sure is. Fumes are real, but did you catch my post about Optima
batteries? They may not be in England but something similar (sealed gel
batteries) might exist there. Check with a battery specialty store or a
high-end stereo shop.
Rick
>
> regards
>
> Dave
> http://www.pas.rochester.edu/~england/index.htm
>
>
>
> -----------== Posted via Deja News, The Discussion Network ==----------
> http://www.dejanews.com/ Search, Read, Discuss, or Start Your Own
.
CobraJet
(RSRM1) wrote:
OK, sounds right. But isn't a regulated battery charger the same as a
regulated power supply? Maybe the charger has 1 to 1 1/2 more volts in
order to "stuff" a car battery? I think when most people hear "battery
charger", they think of the cheap $15 ones at the parts store (the one
Uncle Ernie passed up). Most of the professional quality chargers out there
(that I've seen) are the roll-around type, a bit impractical for track use.
I'll check out the Radio Shack piece, but personally I think I'll stick
with something not plugged into the wall *unless* Radio Shack can supply a
scope readout. Then maybe.
Rick
.
JJsound
> I'll check it out, thanks. If they don't have any info on electronic lap
>timers, maybe somebody can clue me in.
I am getting mine from a guy in Canada and forget his name right now. 4 lane
timer and software that can be run on a computer that most people consider
worthless and will give you FREE. Way cool. Price minus computer is about
$60.00 shipped.
Email me and I will respond with info when I get it.
John Stefanick
JJsound
Hello Rick,
Or HO slot car motors do not need pure DC with the AC componnent measured in
millivolts. They will work fine with about 1/2 a volt (or more) AC component
(aka: ripple).
Being an old hand at sound reinforcement and recording I know the value of pure
DC for audio circuits. The hum you heard on the car stereo system probably had
0.1 to 0.5 volts of AC component riding on the 14.7 volts DC and was, as such,
very noticeable. I agree that running a car on only rectified AC and NOT
filtered with a capacitor (aka: pulsating DC) is not very healthy for the
motors. There has to be a balance struck between the depth of filtering, the
regulation and your wallet. The power supply that will feed ahigh powered
audio amp has way too stringent (read $$$$) specs and would be a waste of
significant cash that could be spent on unlimited race cars :) I know it is
fun to take an argument to the nth degree as I do some times. In this case
believe it or not simply putting a 10,000 microfarad capacitor across any
modern wall wort power supply will get rid of most of the AC component. It
will not however give you the REGULATION that is desired for our cars. The
regulation can be to within a volt and be absoultely unnoticable to anybody not
watching a volt meter while racing. Hey, why aren't you watching your car!!!!
I am not by any means the expert. Please don't take what I am saying as
preaching or bitching. By the way, I am 42 years and have rediscovered HO with
my 8 year old son. What a blast. We went to our first HO swap meet. Everyone
was just great with thier honest opinions and help. Not a "stinker" in the
bunch and I am sure the same goes for this NG too.
John Stefanick
PS. My home track is coming along nicely. The computer lap timer will be
added soon. Can't wait.......
jwei...@hcps.us
> Could someone please tell me(or point me somewhere with this information) what
> the maximum safe, efficient track length is for tyco or lifelike track?
>
> Thanks,
> Eric
> bufn...@aol.com
Need some help. I am trying to set up a 4 lane using Life Like and have all the correct pieces for the paper clip but the track keeps buckling at the last connection point(MUCHO tension). Any suggestions? I currently have a two lane set up using 150 feet of track ( each lane powered) and it works great. Semperfi23111