Medieval France and Germany
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Graham Truesdale
Dec 18, 2022, 6:10:36 PM12/18/22
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In Our Time Line: -
1. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Charlemagne and his son https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Louis_the_Pious reigned over the https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Carolingian_Empire which, at its height, stretched from to Schleswig in the north to Barcelona in the south-west to south of Rome in the south-east to the https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Morava_(river) on the border of present-day Slovakia in the east.
2. After Louis’ death in 843, the Carolingian Empire was partitioned into a number of states, the largest of which were https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/West_Francia (which evolved into France) and https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/East_Francia (which evolved into Germany).
3. East Francia had Carolingian (descended from Charlemagne) monarchs until 911. Non-Carolingians were elected in 911 and 919, and the son of the latter was crowned as Holy Roman Emperor in 962.
4. West Francia had Carolingian monarchs until 888 and then some Carolingian and some non-Carolingian monarchs until 987.
5. In 987 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hugh_Capet was elected King of West Francia and his descendants reigned in France until 1792, and then again from 1815 to 1848.
6. France gradually evolved into a unitary state, while Germany/the Holy Roman Empire remained a loose confederation until the Empire was dissolved in 1806. Even to-day the Federal Republic of Germany is (as it says on the tin) a federal state, while the French Republic is a unitary one.
So (historical question) at what point was the biggest shift towards France becoming a unitary state? The reign of https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Philip_II_of_France (1180-1223)? IOW how did France and Germany (under https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Frederick_Barbarossa who seems to have been a strong ruler) compare in 1180, in terms of how unitary or how loosely fragmented they were?
And (alternate history challenge) what would it have taken to make France a loose confederation like OTL Germany pre-1806, or Germany a unitary state like OTL France?
I have seen it suggested that part of the reason was that there was an uninterrupted line of father-to-son successions in France from the death of Hugh Capet in 996 to the death of https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_I_of_France in 1316. So WI Philip II of France is never born, or is a girl and thus unable to succeed, or dies as a result of the teenage illness referred to in his article? He was the son of his father Louis VII’s third marriage, after the first two had failed to produce a son. Louis VII’s next brother was https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Henry_of_France,_Archbishop_of_Reims
Or WI the https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ottonian_dynasty (919-1024), the https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Salian_dynasty (1024-1125) or the Hohenstaufen dynasty (1138-1254) had lasted longer?
Or could https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Frederick_II,_Holy_Roman_Emperor (reigned 1220-1250) have acted differently so as to prevent the decline of the HRE?
1. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Charlemagne and his son https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Louis_the_Pious reigned over the https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Carolingian_Empire which, at its height, stretched from to Schleswig in the north to Barcelona in the south-west to south of Rome in the south-east to the https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Morava_(river) on the border of present-day Slovakia in the east.
2. After Louis’ death in 843, the Carolingian Empire was partitioned into a number of states, the largest of which were https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/West_Francia (which evolved into France) and https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/East_Francia (which evolved into Germany).
3. East Francia had Carolingian (descended from Charlemagne) monarchs until 911. Non-Carolingians were elected in 911 and 919, and the son of the latter was crowned as Holy Roman Emperor in 962.
4. West Francia had Carolingian monarchs until 888 and then some Carolingian and some non-Carolingian monarchs until 987.
5. In 987 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hugh_Capet was elected King of West Francia and his descendants reigned in France until 1792, and then again from 1815 to 1848.
6. France gradually evolved into a unitary state, while Germany/the Holy Roman Empire remained a loose confederation until the Empire was dissolved in 1806. Even to-day the Federal Republic of Germany is (as it says on the tin) a federal state, while the French Republic is a unitary one.
So (historical question) at what point was the biggest shift towards France becoming a unitary state? The reign of https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Philip_II_of_France (1180-1223)? IOW how did France and Germany (under https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Frederick_Barbarossa who seems to have been a strong ruler) compare in 1180, in terms of how unitary or how loosely fragmented they were?
And (alternate history challenge) what would it have taken to make France a loose confederation like OTL Germany pre-1806, or Germany a unitary state like OTL France?
I have seen it suggested that part of the reason was that there was an uninterrupted line of father-to-son successions in France from the death of Hugh Capet in 996 to the death of https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_I_of_France in 1316. So WI Philip II of France is never born, or is a girl and thus unable to succeed, or dies as a result of the teenage illness referred to in his article? He was the son of his father Louis VII’s third marriage, after the first two had failed to produce a son. Louis VII’s next brother was https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Henry_of_France,_Archbishop_of_Reims
Or WI the https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ottonian_dynasty (919-1024), the https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Salian_dynasty (1024-1125) or the Hohenstaufen dynasty (1138-1254) had lasted longer?
Or could https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Frederick_II,_Holy_Roman_Emperor (reigned 1220-1250) have acted differently so as to prevent the decline of the HRE?
Louis Epstein
Jan 15, 2023, 9:15:13 PMJan 15
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Graham Truesdale <graham.t...@gmail.com> wrote:
> In Our Time Line: -
> 1. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Charlemagne and his son https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Louis_the_Pious reigned over the https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Carolingian_Empire which, at its height, stretched from to Schleswig in the north to Barcelona in the south-west to south of Rome in the south-east to the https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Morava_(river) on the border of present-day Slovakia in the east.
>
> 2. After Louis? death in 843, the Carolingian Empire was partitioned into a number of states, the largest of which were https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/West_Francia (which evolved into France) and https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/East_Francia (which evolved into Germany).
> In Our Time Line: -
> 1. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Charlemagne and his son https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Louis_the_Pious reigned over the https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Carolingian_Empire which, at its height, stretched from to Schleswig in the north to Barcelona in the south-west to south of Rome in the south-east to the https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Morava_(river) on the border of present-day Slovakia in the east.
>
>
> 3. East Francia had Carolingian (descended from Charlemagne) monarchs until 911. Non-Carolingians were elected in 911 and 919, and the son of the latter was crowned as Holy Roman Emperor in 962.
>
> 4. West Francia had Carolingian monarchs until 888 and then some
> Carolingian and some non-Carolingian monarchs until 987.
In this period it was flicking back and forth between the
> 3. East Francia had Carolingian (descended from Charlemagne) monarchs until 911. Non-Carolingians were elected in 911 and 919, and the son of the latter was crowned as Holy Roman Emperor in 962.
>
> 4. West Francia had Carolingian monarchs until 888 and then some
> Carolingian and some non-Carolingian monarchs until 987.
Carolingians and Robertian/Capetians.
> 5. In 987 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hugh_Capet was elected King of
> West Francia and his descendants reigned in France until 1792, and then again
> from 1815 to 1848.
>
> 6. France gradually evolved into a unitary state, while Germany/the
> Holy Roman Empire remained a loose confederation until the Empire was
> dissolved in 1806. Even to-day the Federal Republic of Germany is (as it says
> on the tin) a federal state, while the French Republic is a unitary one.
>
> So (historical question) at what point was the biggest shift towards France
> becoming a unitary state? The reign of
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Philip_II_of_France (1180-1223)?
by which the Kings extended their initially limited royal demesne.
Of course,what effect did the Hundred Years' War have in terms of
making the anti-English French circle their wagons and exposing
pro-English French to confiscation of their lands on the occasion
of anti-English success?
> IOW how did
> France and Germany (under https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Frederick_Barbarossa
> who seems to have been a strong ruler) compare in 1180, in terms of how
> unitary or how loosely fragmented they were?
>
> And (alternate history challenge) what would it have taken to make France a
> loose confederation like OTL Germany pre-1806, or Germany a unitary state
> like OTL France?
>
> I have seen it suggested that part of the reason was that there was an
> uninterrupted line of father-to-son successions in France from the death of
> Hugh Capet in 996 to the death of https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_I_of_France
> in 1316. So WI Philip II of France is never born, or is a girl and thus
> unable to succeed, or dies as a result of the teenage illness referred to in
> the first two had failed to produce a son. Louis VII?s next brother was
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Henry_of_France,_Archbishop_of_Reims
He also had an older brother who died in a riding accident,
and younger brothers.
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