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Do you believe that a surviving Tsarist Russia or, alternatively, some other kind of non-Communist Russia would have been any more successful at Russifying Russia's non-Russian territories?
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WolfBear
Nov 10, 2019, 2:11:58 PM11/10/19
to
Do you believe that a surviving Tsarist Russia or, alternatively, some other kind of non-Communist Russia would have been any more successful at Russifying Russia's non-Russian territories? For the record, this graphic shows the Russian percentage in various republics of the USSR in 1989--as well as the Russian percentage there in the 2010s:
https://gdb.rferl.org/4C34CA8B-2971-4F81-8EDE-B0AFBB2496A4.jpg
Also, for the record, mass ethnic cleansing is excluded from this scenario. So, Russification could only be achieved either through voluntary mass migration or through successful assimilation that causes some or even many non-Russians to abandon their non-Russian identity and instead begin identifying as Russians.
https://gdb.rferl.org/4C34CA8B-2971-4F81-8EDE-B0AFBB2496A4.jpg
Also, for the record, mass ethnic cleansing is excluded from this scenario. So, Russification could only be achieved either through voluntary mass migration or through successful assimilation that causes some or even many non-Russians to abandon their non-Russian identity and instead begin identifying as Russians.
Ed Stasiak
Nov 11, 2019, 7:56:49 AM11/11/19
to
> WolfBear
the non-Russians.
I remember reading somewhere that towards the run-up to WWI,
many Poles were rooting for the Russians to win, as despite multiple
revolts against the Czar over the years, (essentially every generation)
the Polish attitude by then was that Imperial Russia was “our empire”
in that a Pole could rise thru the ranks while remaining a Pole, whereas
in Germany and the Hapsburg empire this was much harder to do.
So I’d say an Imperial Czarist Russia that drops the Russification policies
and adopts a political philosophy of an "imperial federation", might have
been able to survive and even expand.
>
> non-Communist Russia would have been any more successful
> at Russifying Russia's non-Russian territories?
The issue was the Russification of non-Russians that pissed off
> non-Communist Russia would have been any more successful
> at Russifying Russia's non-Russian territories?
the non-Russians.
I remember reading somewhere that towards the run-up to WWI,
many Poles were rooting for the Russians to win, as despite multiple
revolts against the Czar over the years, (essentially every generation)
the Polish attitude by then was that Imperial Russia was “our empire”
in that a Pole could rise thru the ranks while remaining a Pole, whereas
in Germany and the Hapsburg empire this was much harder to do.
So I’d say an Imperial Czarist Russia that drops the Russification policies
and adopts a political philosophy of an "imperial federation", might have
been able to survive and even expand.
SolomonW
Nov 11, 2019, 8:35:54 AM11/11/19
to
On Mon, 11 Nov 2019 04:56:48 -0800 (PST), Ed Stasiak wrote:
> So I’d say an Imperial Czarist Russia that drops the Russification policies
> and adopts a political philosophy of an "imperial federation", might have
> been able to survive and even expand.
I would say that the federation would have been thrown apart. I have doubts
> So I’d say an Imperial Czarist Russia that drops the Russification policies
> and adopts a political philosophy of an "imperial federation", might have
> been able to survive and even expand.
that the Czarist regime would survive; it would at best slowly move to
democracy with a Czar that would gradually lose power. Once democracy
appears the average ethenic Russian would see the non-Russians areas as an
expensive to hold and the non-Russian areas would want out.
Rich Rostrom
Nov 12, 2019, 4:48:19 PM11/12/19
to
One is the increasing tendency of regional ethnic
minorities to assert their distinct identities against
long-established political structures.
For instance, Irish nationalism, which besides the
political separation of Ireland from Britain has
included the increased usage of Irish phonology in
names (i.e. Patrick O'Connor-->Padraig O Conor) and
mandatory official use of Gaelic.
Scots Nationalism has been similar, and also Welsh nationalism.
The rise of Czech and Slovak ethnic consciousness also falls
into this category. In Spain, Basque nationalism and Catalan
separatism, and also _Galician_ activism. In France there was
actually a Breton nationalist movement, and ISTR hearing of
Sardinian separatism in Italy. There is trans-national
"solidarity" among the Lapp or Sami minorities in arctic
Scandinavia and Russia.
In the US, one sees a lot of ethnic assertiveness by Indians
and native Hawaiians; in Canada by the various "First Nations".
That's all on one side. On the other side is the simple fact
that distinctive ethnic traits (especially language) decline
precipitously from contact with mass culture. Ireland spends
huge amounts to produce cultural "content" in Gaelic, and
every official sign must be in Gaelic as well as English, but
hardly one Irishman in 20 actually speaks Gaelic.
In a non-Bolshevik Russia - coercive Russification would be
possible in an authoritarian regime, and might provoke serious
pushback. OTOH, in a free, capitalist Russia, Russia's many
small ethnic minorities would simply dissolve if not propped
up by state action (i.e. an official "Yougarian Council" with
a budget for "Yougarian" activities; or a Yougarian Autonomous
Region).
I note that many people from Russia seem to have non-Russian
backgrounds assimilated to Russian. For instance, figure skater
Elizaveta Tuktamysheva - an obvious Tatar or Mongol patronymic.
So it's not clear which trend wins out.
--
Nous sommes dans une pot de chambre, et nous y serons emmerdés.
--- General Auguste-Alexandre Ducrot at Sedan, 1870.
Rich Rostrom
Nov 12, 2019, 5:05:23 PM11/12/19
to
Ed Stasiak <esta...@att.net> wrote:
> the Polish attitude by then was that Imperial Russia was ģour empireē
I recall that at the time of the Ausgleich crisis in the
1890s, the president of the Diet (imperial parliament) was
a Pole, Ritter Abrahomowicz. (Upon looking him up, I find
that there were two prominent Abrohamowiczs from Galicia
in this period, one a politician - they were brothers and
ethnic _Armenians_. ????)
> the Polish attitude by then was that Imperial Russia was ģour empireē
> in that a Pole could rise thru the ranks while remaining a Pole, whereas
> in Germany and the Hapsburg empire this was much harder to do.
In Germany, yes, but Austria was a complete ethnic melange.
> in Germany and the Hapsburg empire this was much harder to do.
I recall that at the time of the Ausgleich crisis in the
1890s, the president of the Diet (imperial parliament) was
a Pole, Ritter Abrahomowicz. (Upon looking him up, I find
that there were two prominent Abrohamowiczs from Galicia
in this period, one a politician - they were brothers and
ethnic _Armenians_. ????)
WolfBear
Nov 12, 2019, 7:47:05 PM11/12/19
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WolfBear
Nov 12, 2019, 7:48:06 PM11/12/19
to
Rich Rostrom
Nov 12, 2019, 10:26:13 PM11/12/19
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WolfBear <m4j...@gmail.com> wrote:
> That name sounds Jewish.
It does, but he wasn't. Mark Twain wrote a piece, "Stirring Times in Austria",
about the Ausgleich crisis. He attended some sessions of the Diet. At this time,
during sessions of the Diet, members would stand screaming insults at each
other for hours on end - while Abrahamowicz feebly tried to restore order.
According to Twain, the favorite insults (used by all factions) were "Jew"
and "Jew lackey"; but he does not record anyone using them to Abrahamowicz.
> That name sounds Jewish.
It does, but he wasn't. Mark Twain wrote a piece, "Stirring Times in Austria",
about the Ausgleich crisis. He attended some sessions of the Diet. At this time,
during sessions of the Diet, members would stand screaming insults at each
other for hours on end - while Abrahamowicz feebly tried to restore order.
According to Twain, the favorite insults (used by all factions) were "Jew"
and "Jew lackey"; but he does not record anyone using them to Abrahamowicz.
Rich Rostrom
Nov 12, 2019, 10:31:50 PM11/12/19
to
WolfBear <m4j...@gmail.com> wrote:
> What about Russifying lands through large-scale
> Russian settler colonialism? After all, the US did
> this in much of its interior--though in regards to
> the Southwest, the last several decades of mass
> Hispanic immigration is in large part reversing
> these historical trends.
The lands settled by the US were all but vacant. There
> What about Russifying lands through large-scale
> Russian settler colonialism? After all, the US did
> this in much of its interior--though in regards to
> the Southwest, the last several decades of mass
> Hispanic immigration is in large part reversing
> these historical trends.
were only a few thousand Californios, and not many more
Tejanos. There were at most 400,000 Indians in the
entire continental US by 1820, about one for every 20 km^2.
Whereas the minorities of Russia were as dense on the
ground as Russian in their homeland - except in desert
and tundra areas that no one could live in.
WolfBear
Nov 14, 2019, 1:34:37 AM11/14/19
to
On Tuesday, November 12, 2019 at 7:31:50 PM UTC-8, Rich Rostrom wrote:
> WolfBear <m4j...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > What about Russifying lands through large-scale
> > Russian settler colonialism? After all, the US did
> > this in much of its interior--though in regards to
> > the Southwest, the last several decades of mass
> > Hispanic immigration is in large part reversing
> > these historical trends.
>
> The lands settled by the US were all but vacant. There
> were only a few thousand Californios, and not many more
> Tejanos. There were at most 400,000 Indians in the
> entire continental US by 1820, about one for every 20 km^2.
>
Do you know what the figure for Indians in what is now the US was at their peak? For instance, in 1492 or whenever else their peak population was.
> WolfBear <m4j...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > What about Russifying lands through large-scale
> > Russian settler colonialism? After all, the US did
> > this in much of its interior--though in regards to
> > the Southwest, the last several decades of mass
> > Hispanic immigration is in large part reversing
> > these historical trends.
>
> The lands settled by the US were all but vacant. There
> were only a few thousand Californios, and not many more
> Tejanos. There were at most 400,000 Indians in the
> entire continental US by 1820, about one for every 20 km^2.
>
> Whereas the minorities of Russia were as dense on the
> ground as Russian in their homeland - except in desert
> and tundra areas that no one could live in.
Also, even if territories have a lot of people, they can still sometimes be Russified to a significant extent. For instance, Kazakhstan.
The Horny Goat
Nov 21, 2020, 3:24:57 AM11/21/20
to
On Sun, 10 Nov 2019 11:11:57 -0800 (PST), WolfBear <m4j...@gmail.com>
wrote:
>Also, for the record, mass ethnic cleansing is excluded from this scenario.=
> So, Russification could only be achieved either through voluntary mass mig=
>ration or through successful assimilation that causes some or even many non=
>-Russians to abandon their non-Russian identity and instead begin identifyi=
>ng as Russians.
So what do you consider 'Russified'?
I mean Stalin is one most would consider Russified right? (Albeit he
took every opportunity to be the Bolshevik leader for "nationalities")
wrote:
>Also, for the record, mass ethnic cleansing is excluded from this scenario.=
> So, Russification could only be achieved either through voluntary mass mig=
>ration or through successful assimilation that causes some or even many non=
>-Russians to abandon their non-Russian identity and instead begin identifyi=
>ng as Russians.
So what do you consider 'Russified'?
I mean Stalin is one most would consider Russified right? (Albeit he
took every opportunity to be the Bolshevik leader for "nationalities")
The Horny Goat
May 12, 2021, 10:01:28 PM5/12/21
to
->Also, for the record, mass ethnic cleansing is excluded from this
would you consider the mass expulsion of Poles from east of the 1939
German/Russian demarcation line to the lands taken from the Germans in
1945?
(You could make the argument about Germans in areas acquired by Poland
but those were not Russified except in terms of political control)
scenario. So, Russification could only be achieved either through
voluntary mass migration or through successful assimilation that
causes some or even many non-Russians to abandon their non-Russian
identity and instead begin identifying as Russians.
As a for instance what would consider 'ethnic cleansing'? For instance
voluntary mass migration or through successful assimilation that
causes some or even many non-Russians to abandon their non-Russian
identity and instead begin identifying as Russians.
would you consider the mass expulsion of Poles from east of the 1939
German/Russian demarcation line to the lands taken from the Germans in
1945?
(You could make the argument about Germans in areas acquired by Poland
but those were not Russified except in terms of political control)
WolfBear
May 12, 2021, 11:52:31 PM5/12/21
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WolfBear
May 12, 2021, 11:53:00 PM5/12/21
to
The Horny Goat
Oct 7, 2021, 6:08:42 PM10/7/21
to
>Do you believe that a surviving Tsarist Russia or, alternatively, some other kind of non-Communist Russia would have been any more successful at Russifying Russia's non-Russian territories? For the record, this graphic shows the Russian percentage in various republics of the USSR in 1989--as well as the Russian percentage there in the 2010s:
>
>https://gdb.rferl.org/4C34CA8B-2971-4F81-8EDE-B0AFBB2496A4.jpg
>
>Also, for the record, mass ethnic cleansing is excluded from this scenario. So, Russification could only be achieved either through voluntary mass migration or through successful assimilation that causes some or even many non-Russians to abandon their non-Russian identity and instead begin identifying as Russians.
So in this scenario how do you determine "Russification"? Many
>
>https://gdb.rferl.org/4C34CA8B-2971-4F81-8EDE-B0AFBB2496A4.jpg
>
>Also, for the record, mass ethnic cleansing is excluded from this scenario. So, Russification could only be achieved either through voluntary mass migration or through successful assimilation that causes some or even many non-Russians to abandon their non-Russian identity and instead begin identifying as Russians.
non-Baltic non-Russian former Soviet citizens use patronymics (heck
Stalin himself did throughout his life though he was non-Russian) and
do to this day. Most would consider Stalin completely Russified though
in his bio of Stalin Stephen Kotkin makes it plain that patronymics in
1880-1917 Georgia were common in the population generally and few
Georgians were 'Russified" to the degree Stalin was.
Most folks in that part of the world DON'T have parent chosen middle
names the way it is common in the West.
So I guess my question is for folks in those countries does using a
patronymic alone make one considered "Russified" in your scenario?
SolomonW
Oct 8, 2021, 3:22:59 AM10/8/21
to
On Thu, 07 Oct 2021 15:08:39 -0700, The Horny Goat wrote:
> On Sun, 10 Nov 2019 11:11:57 -0800 (PST), WolfBear <m4j...@gmail.com>
> wrote:
>
>>Do you believe that a surviving Tsarist Russia or, alternatively, some other kind of non-Communist Russia would have been any more successful at Russifying Russia's non-Russian territories? For the record, this graphic shows the Russian percentage in various republics of the USSR in 1989--as well as the Russian percentage there in the 2010s:
>>
>>https://gdb.rferl.org/4C34CA8B-2971-4F81-8EDE-B0AFBB2496A4.jpg
>>
>>Also, for the record, mass ethnic cleansing is excluded from this scenario. So, Russification could only be achieved either through voluntary mass migration or through successful assimilation that causes some or even many non-Russians to abandon their non-Russian identity and instead begin identifying as Russians.
>
> So in this scenario how do you determine "Russification"? Many
> non-Baltic non-Russian former Soviet citizens use patronymics (heck
> Stalin himself did throughout his life though he was non-Russian) and
> do to this day.
Even more, it's common for people there to speak the language in everyday
> On Sun, 10 Nov 2019 11:11:57 -0800 (PST), WolfBear <m4j...@gmail.com>
> wrote:
>
>>Do you believe that a surviving Tsarist Russia or, alternatively, some other kind of non-Communist Russia would have been any more successful at Russifying Russia's non-Russian territories? For the record, this graphic shows the Russian percentage in various republics of the USSR in 1989--as well as the Russian percentage there in the 2010s:
>>
>>https://gdb.rferl.org/4C34CA8B-2971-4F81-8EDE-B0AFBB2496A4.jpg
>>
>>Also, for the record, mass ethnic cleansing is excluded from this scenario. So, Russification could only be achieved either through voluntary mass migration or through successful assimilation that causes some or even many non-Russians to abandon their non-Russian identity and instead begin identifying as Russians.
>
> So in this scenario how do you determine "Russification"? Many
> non-Baltic non-Russian former Soviet citizens use patronymics (heck
> Stalin himself did throughout his life though he was non-Russian) and
> do to this day.
use in the region and Russian. My grandparents, for example, spoke among
other languages, Lithuanian and Russian, fluently.
The Horny Goat
Mar 31, 2022, 12:03:37 PM3/31/22
to
>Do you believe that a surviving Tsarist Russia or, alternatively, some other kind of non-Communist Russia would have been any more successful at Russifying Russia's non-Russian territories? For the record, this graphic shows the Russian percentage in various republics of the USSR in 1989--as well as the Russian percentage there in the 2010s:
>
>https://gdb.rferl.org/4C34CA8B-2971-4F81-8EDE-B0AFBB2496A4.jpg
>
>Also, for the record, mass ethnic cleansing is excluded from this scenario. So, Russification could only be achieved either through voluntary mass migration or through successful assimilation that causes some or even many non-Russians to abandon their non-Russian identity and instead begin identifying as Russians.
Of course it works both ways.
>
>https://gdb.rferl.org/4C34CA8B-2971-4F81-8EDE-B0AFBB2496A4.jpg
>
>Also, for the record, mass ethnic cleansing is excluded from this scenario. So, Russification could only be achieved either through voluntary mass migration or through successful assimilation that causes some or even many non-Russians to abandon their non-Russian identity and instead begin identifying as Russians.
I know a lady whose father was a Red Army surgeon and grew up all over
the Soviet Union but ended up in Kharkov / Kharkiv before emigrating
to Canada. (Which she now considers her home town)
She says she speaks both Russian and Ukrainian but is stronger in
Russian.
Looking at her Facebook page however it is clear which way she is
leaning since it has a silhouette of Ukraine including the eastern
territories seized by the "separatists" and Crimea and includes a star
labelled "Kharkiv" and a heart in blue and yellow....
Trolidan7
Apr 1, 2022, 10:38:15 AM4/1/22
to
Ethnicity is at least partially a matter of choice, and if you try
to force people a certain way rather than let them decide for themselves
they tend to go in the opposite direction.
The Horny Goat
Apr 1, 2022, 6:04:41 PM4/1/22
to
On Fri, 1 Apr 2022 07:38:12 -0700, Trolidan7
<Trol...@eternal-september.org> wrote:
> > Of course it works both ways.
> >
> > I know a lady whose father was a Red Army surgeon and grew up all over
> > the Soviet Union but ended up in Kharkov / Kharkiv before emigrating
> > to Canada. (Which she now considers her home town)
> >
> > She says she speaks both Russian and Ukrainian but is stronger in
> > Russian.
> >
> > Looking at her Facebook page however it is clear which way she is
> > leaning since it has a silhouette of Ukraine including the eastern
> > territories seized by the "separatists" and Crimea and includes a star
> > labelled "Kharkiv" and a heart in blue and yellow....
>
>I also agree.
>
>Ethnicity is at least partially a matter of choice, and if you try
>to force people a certain way rather than let them decide for themselves
>they tend to go in the opposite direction.
Hey I'm the son of an American father and Canadian mother - conceived
<Trol...@eternal-september.org> wrote:
> > Of course it works both ways.
> >
> > I know a lady whose father was a Red Army surgeon and grew up all over
> > the Soviet Union but ended up in Kharkov / Kharkiv before emigrating
> > to Canada. (Which she now considers her home town)
> >
> > She says she speaks both Russian and Ukrainian but is stronger in
> > Russian.
> >
> > Looking at her Facebook page however it is clear which way she is
> > leaning since it has a silhouette of Ukraine including the eastern
> > territories seized by the "separatists" and Crimea and includes a star
> > labelled "Kharkiv" and a heart in blue and yellow....
>
>I also agree.
>
>Ethnicity is at least partially a matter of choice, and if you try
>to force people a certain way rather than let them decide for themselves
>they tend to go in the opposite direction.
in the USA and born in Canada. Further back at least 2 or 3
nationalities from each of my parents. Chiefly because my father was
from a larger family than my mother, I have more US cousins than
Canadian cousins (most of whom I know but haven't seen many of them
these last 20 years since our parents started dying off) but a much
larger extended family on both sides few of which I know well. (Most
of our contact these days is through the family Facebook group which
is chiefly about sharing old photos from our parents' photo albums)
With respect to the US and Canada I'm sure mine is a familiar story.
The lady referred to above never told me where her parents were from
but I feel certain that if it were somewhere in Ukraine she would have
said. Her father was a Red Army physician so presumably HIS home town
could have been anywhere in the Soviet Union (similar to most US army
officers - and he WAS an MD so would have been at least a Captain) and
her surname sounds more Russian than Ukrainian. Got to know her fairly
well when I was mentoring her in Toastmasters about 4-5 years back.
She's never mentioned having spent time in Eastern Europe so
presumably his service was strictly within the Soviet Union (which of
course may or may not have been in Russia or Ukraine). But no question
at least to the extent any army brat has a home town she definitely
considered Kharkov / Kharkiv her home town (and I saw her write it
bothways...)
The Horny Goat
Jul 26, 2022, 11:45:19 AM7/26/22
to
>Do you believe that a surviving Tsarist Russia or, alternatively, some other kind of non-Communist Russia would have been any more successful at Russifying Russia's non-Russian territories? For the record, this graphic shows the Russian percentage in various republics of the USSR in 1989--as well as the Russian percentage there in the 2010s:
>
>https://gdb.rferl.org/4C34CA8B-2971-4F81-8EDE-B0AFBB2496A4.jpg
>
>Also, for the record, mass ethnic cleansing is excluded from this scenario. So, Russification could only be achieved either through voluntary mass migration or through successful assimilation that causes some or even many non-Russians to abandon their non-Russian identity and instead begin identifying as Russians.
Presumably your scenario does not require 'mass ethnic cleansing' to
>
>https://gdb.rferl.org/4C34CA8B-2971-4F81-8EDE-B0AFBB2496A4.jpg
>
>Also, for the record, mass ethnic cleansing is excluded from this scenario. So, Russification could only be achieved either through voluntary mass migration or through successful assimilation that causes some or even many non-Russians to abandon their non-Russian identity and instead begin identifying as Russians.
be due to RUSSIAN efforts - e.g. some version of Hitler who might
REALLY dislike Ukrainians or other 'Soviet nationality'
Or the exact opposite - somebody who establishes a Jewish or other
ethnic 'homeland' within the Russian empire.
Of course the external factor need not be German - the Japanese were
not well known for their treatment of minorities either.
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