3rd class passengers sinking
Goldmeier
from Amazon for further investigation.
I was bothered by many of the social issues the movie portrayed but the
thing that really got me was when the Titanic was sinking. The movie showed
how crewmen had locked the gates leading up to the deck, preventing 3rd
class passengers from getting to the top.
I wanted to know (without waiting for my books) if this is documented and
fact or if it is Hollywood moviemaking at its best/worst.
How is it possible, morally, that they could have prevented them from coming
up for so long? "Following orders" is not a very good answer, as it is not
in most cases it is used. How could this have happened (if it did happen)?
Thank you.
Rafi
Joe Knapp
Goldmeier wrote in message <6vu4dl$ut4$1...@lnews.actcom.co.il>...
> The movie showed
>how crewmen had locked the gates leading up to the deck, preventing 3rd
>class passengers from getting to the top.
>I wanted to know (without waiting for my books) if this is documented and
>fact
It's documented (Senate testimony of Daniel Buckley)
at least. And there were other stories of people begging
the crew to open certain gates, and encountering
resistance.
Joe
Marcus Graham
"Goldmeier" <gldm...@actcom.co.il> wrote:
> Hi. I recently saw the Titanic movie on video and have ordered some books
> from Amazon for further investigation.
> I was bothered by many of the social issues the movie portrayed but the
> how crewmen had locked the gates leading up to the deck, preventing 3rd
> class passengers from getting to the top.
> I wanted to know (without waiting for my books) if this is documented and
Yes Rafi there is several witness testimonies that directly and indirectly
point to this being the case. Then, as today, it was a very sensitive issue,
as it would mean that certain groups of people were discriminated and given a
smaller chance of survival. 1912 was a politically volatile time with huge
differences between the wealthy and the poor and budding middle classes.
Protests against the horrible working conditions and extremely low wages
among the poor were getting louder and louder and riots were not uncommon. It
was thought very wise to not speak too loudly of what really happened that
night, as the huge masses of immigrants were vital to the commercial lines.
WSL could lose a great number of valuable immigrant travellers to other big
ocean lines.
The big difference in survival between first class passengers and the other
classes, especially third class, would become a great embarrassment to the
executives at WSL, and it was an issue that was simply impossible to overlook
in the days following the disaster. Vague attempts at addressing the issue
were made during the senate hearings. The truth, which upset many, was that
a first class woman stood a virtual one hundred percent chance of survival,
while a third class man had only a ten percent chance of survival that night.
Previous Titanic films have given a very romantic and hypocritical picture
of the tragedy of Titanic, and with few exceptions they seem to lack an
interest in showing the fate of ordinary poor people, who had saved for years
and made huge sacrifices in order to be able to buy a ticket to the new world
and a dream of a new and better life.
James Cameron has given these lost souls a voice too, and that is
commendable.
> How is it possible, morally, that they could have prevented them from coming
> up for so long? "Following orders" is not a very good answer, as it is not
> in most cases it is used. How could this have happened (if it did happen)?
>
We must consider first why such an order most probably was issued. When
Titanic commenced her voyage to New York she was equipped with far to few
life boats for her size and passenger capacity, but she was, incredible as it
sounds within the legal requirements of the day. Many of her passengers would
be doomed in the event of a major catastrophy unless help arrived in time.
This fact was common knowledge among WSL officers and captain Smith was no
exception. Immediately after the hit Titanic's officers and engineers were
sent to investigate the damage to the hull, and within half an hour it was
evident that Titanic was going to founder. Now it was not a matter of if but
rather how long she had left. Rough estimations were being made and the
conclusion was that she was so seriously damaged that she had one to two
hours left.
It was shocking news and the order to evacuate the passengers quickly without
causing a panic was given. Meanwhile Titanic's two wireless operators were
given instructions to begin sending distress calls and the responses from
other vessels would determine whether all or just some of the passengers
would survive. At 12.25, forty five minutes after the collision, the
Carpathia responded to Titanic's calls and soon after officers were informed
that help would arrive in four hours. Forty five precious minutes had already
passed without any better offerings. Ships were simply too far away to be
able to assist in an evacuation of all her passengers, which would mean that
additional boats from the rescuing ship, and Titanic's own life boats must be
used to transport the remaining passengers and crew from the sinking Titanic.
Faced with the inevitable, captain Smith, the ship's ultimate authority,
had to consider what the options were. Somewhere around 1.00 things were
beginning to get unruly. As Titanic began to tipp more and more passengers
became increasingly aware that something was terribly wrong. They were stuck
in the middle of a dark, bitterly cold ocean on a ship that was beginning to
take in huge volumes of water. Information was very dim and unsatisfactory
which added to the confusion. Some were told that the ship was sinking,
others were told that there was nothing to worry about, many were told that
life jackets had to be put on, while others were told to go back to sleep.
These conflicting statements spread among the passengers and more and more
decided it was best to be cautious and began searching for a way up to the
boat deck. As people began to fill the deck, many of them trying to gain
access to the life boats, disregarding the officers in charge of loading
the boats, it became clear to the captain that panic was a real possibility.
Revolvers were handed to the officers and during this time I believe that
captain Smith ordered some gates to be locked in order to prevent things from
going out of hands. Deep down he must have realised that passengers would
be doomed, but they would be doomed no matter what he did, and he could not
risk to face a chaos on deck, possibly endangering the evacuation alltogether.
If by a miracle a ship would appear in time, the gates would be unlocked and
passengers allowed up immediately. In the meantime a selection between them
had to be made, and only some women and children would be allowed up on deck.
I don't think that there was any conscious plotting to target third class
especially, but the class system and the prevalent values among the ruling
class were no doubt factors that contributed. First class passengers were
near the boat deck and had an obvious advantage as a result of that also. A
large number of stewards were assigned to see to that these spoilt
passengers' every need was taken care of, and this night was no exception.
Necessary information and assistance were given in a more orderly fashion
which must have calmed down upset nerves and facilitated the evacuation.
I think that many factors contributed to the outcome of the evacuation, but
the big losses among third and second class were ultimately the result of
gates being locked and no ships being close enough, or at least not offering
any assistance.
Best Regards,
Marcus
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Joe Knapp
Marcus Graham wrote in message <6vuu9p$o77$1...@nnrp1.dejanews.com>...
>1912 was a politically volatile time with huge
>differences between the wealthy and the poor and budding middle classes.
>Protests against the horrible working conditions and extremely low wages
>among the poor were getting louder and louder and riots were not uncommon.
Another sign of the times was "anarchists" blowing up embassies
and so forth in Russia, assassinating presidents (McKinley) and
the like. Public stories of the time about immigrants hardly depicted
a docile crowd, but concentrated on the dangers of criminals and
anarchists. Kind of like the modern reaction to Cuban immigrants.
Joe
Goldmeier
emergency boats to see how many and what type class of people were on them.
As everybody knows, there were an unusual amount of first class passengers
and few 3rd class. There were also many empty spots. This may be
explainable, as I have read on the group earlier. Safety... Some of the
boats had to get away very quickly...Some were just 1st class
snobbery,etc...
My next question is: There was an awful lo9t of crewmen aboard the
lifeboats (and firemen). Would this be unusual to have so many? I would
think they would put on the number of crew needed to man the lifeboat and
fill the rest with passengers (of any class). I would think extra crewmen
would be the last to go!!! Is this incorrect? If not, why were so many
crewmen saved instead of passengers?
Rafi
Marcus Graham wrote in message <6vuu9p$o77$1...@nnrp1.dejanews.com>...
Andrew and Rebecca Hall
> Some were told that the ship was sinking, others were told that
> there was nothing to worry about, many were told that life jackets
> had to be put on, while others were told to go back to sleep.
As I said, there was no coordination, no plan, no uniformity at all.
Those who were dealing with passengers were essentially left to their
own devices, and advised and acted according to their own, personal
estimates of the severity of the crisis. Unfortunately many of those
were largely unaware of the true gravity of the situation.
> Revolvers were handed to the officers and during this time I believe that
> captain Smith ordered some gates to be locked in order to prevent things
> from going out of hands.
Is there any documentation of this? I mean, *any?*
> Necessary information and assistance were given in a more orderly fashion
> which must have calmed down upset nerves and facilitated the evacuation.
I'm not sure "orderly" is the right term; as far as I can gather, information
spread through simple osmosis, and those in First Class and near the Boat
Deck inevitably had an opportunity to get better information faster than
those low down at the opposite ends of the vessel. "Getting the word"
was not as much a matter of class distinction and social values as it
was one of simple ship's geography.
> I think that many factors contributed to the outcome of the evacuation, but
> the big losses among third and second class were ultimately the result of
> gates being locked. . . .
As I said before, without knowing how many gate(s) were closed/locked,
where they were located, when they were secured, and so on, there's no
way to judge what real effect they may have had on the casualty toll.
In any event, I've never heard it suggested that such blocked passages
contributed to the deaths in Second Class which, after all, had direct
access to the Boat Deck and even "its own" boats (i.e., lifeboats
located in designated Second Class promenade space).
----------> Andy Hall
Butler1918
>> captain Smith ordered some gates to be locked in order to prevent things
>> from going out of hands.
This typical of your lack of research and abysmal lack of critical thinking
facitlites, Marcus. There is no documentation that an "order" to lock the
gates was given by Captain Smith at any time. On eof the few things that Joe
Knapp and I agree on is that there were no specific orders to the crew
concerning the gates--if there had been thenb Knapp and I wouldn't diagree so
strongly on the hows and whys of those gates being locked. Secondly, your
timing if so far off as to be laughable: Smith had th firearms distributed
between 0110 and 0115--and there is more than sufficent testimony that some of
the gates and barricades were either locked or blocked well before that. See
Steward Hart's testimony about bringing up two groups of women from steerage
while the men still being told to stay below. Hart left thed ship about 0120,
in Boat 15 This is only minutes after Smith had the firearms distributed.
You keep trying to have it both ways on everything Marcus, and it won't work.
You can't have the Captain ordering the gates to Thrid Class locked at 0115,
when half the boats are gone, then have hundreds of people swarming onto the
upper decks from steerage forty-five minutes later. You can't have Third Class
being barred from the upper decks at half past midnight then have an "order"
come down forty-five minutes later telling the crew to do what they've already
done. Make up your mind, laddie, what'll it be?
And this crock about Second Class being locked out--who does your research,
Geraldo Rivera?
>> the big losses among third and second class were ultimately the result of
>> gates being locked. . . .
>
Oh, puh-leeze. You've just managed to shoot yourself in the foot here, laddie.
There's no ambiguity of languiage or technical obfuscation here. You just
plain don't know what you're talking about.
Sincerely
Daniel Allen Butler
"Nemo me impune lacessit"
manserv...@my-dejanews.com
> Hi. I recently saw the Titanic movie on video and have ordered some books
> from Amazon for further investigation.
> I was bothered by many of the social issues the movie portrayed but the
> thing that really got me was when the Titanic was sinking. The movie showed
> how crewmen had locked the gates leading up to the deck, preventing 3rd
> class passengers from getting to the top.
Only the ones wearing pieces of cloth wrapped around their head and having a
dot in the middle of their forehead, Rafi. Now go charm a cobra.
God save me from children, idiots, childish idiots, idiotic children, Joe
Knapp who runs the entire spectra, the larcenous Mike Findlay, and idiots
like this one.
manserv...@my-dejanews.com
"Joe Knapp" <j...@worldnet.att.net> wrote:
> It's documented (Senate testimony of Daniel Buckley)
> at least. And there were other stories of people begging
> the crew to open certain gates, and encountering
> resistance.
>
> Joe
And people have begged you to shut the fuck up and encountered resistance.
Your point?
God save me from children, idiots, childish idiots, idiotic children, Joe
Knapp who runs the entire spectra, the larcenous Mike Findlay.
Andrys D Basten
<manserv...@my-dejanews.com> wrote:
>In article <6vu80t$l...@bgtnsc01.worldnet.att.net>,
> "Joe Knapp" <j...@worldnet.att.net> wrote:
>
>> It's documented (Senate testimony of Daniel Buckley)
>> at least. And there were other stories of people begging
>> the crew to open certain gates, and encountering
>> resistance.
>>
>> Joe
>
>And people have begged you to shut the fuck up and encountered resistance.
>Your point?
? You sure have a thing about Joe for a newbie. As for people who
might have been this upset, yes, one of them left for awhile and took
down his website but I am happy to see him back now, at least in his
Titanic mode.
- A
>
>God save me from children, idiots, childish idiots, idiotic children, Joe
>Knapp who runs the entire spectra, the larcenous Mike Findlay.
>
>-----------== Posted via Deja News, The Discussion Network ==----------
>http://www.dejanews.com/ Search, Read, Discuss, or Start Your Own
--
===========================================================
Andrys Basten <and...@netcom.com>
CNE, Basten Micro Consulting
San Francisco/East Bay - 510/235-3861
Have music, will travel: piano, harpsichord, recorders
http://www.andrys.com -Online resources
http://www.andrys.com/indox.html -Peru photos w/Canon Elph
Joe Knapp
Goldmeier wrote in message <6vvdak$kbb$1...@lnews.actcom.co.il>...
>My next question is: There was an awful lo9t of crewmen aboard the
>lifeboats (and firemen). Would this be unusual to have so many?
Most of the crew who escaped did so in the third class boats,
which were not generally reserved for women and children,
but were more of a free for all. These were the boats in the
aft part of the ship.
Joe
Tom Pappas
>Well, duh. Although I still think the word "reserved" is inappropriate
>here. You make it sound as if there were some addendum in the White
>Star manual which stated that the boats were "reserved" for women and
>children in case of emergency, when in fact this "policy" was
>implemented that night, in that instance, at the orders of the ship's
>Captain. It's just a language thing.
It might be noted in this context that the twelve forward boats would hold
over 650, but there were barely 300 first class passengers.
--
Half-baked Titanic theories galore at:
http://home.earthlink.net/~tomswift1
"But this script can't sink!"
"She is made of irony, sir. I assure you, she can."
M. Perry
> Most of the crew who escaped did so in the third class boats,
> which were not generally reserved for women and children,
> but were more of a free for all. These were the boats in the
> aft part of the ship.
Forgive me if I'm late to this particular party, but are you suggesting
here that there were designated third class boats? And what do you mean
by "reserved" for women and children? Please clarify.
Mark
--
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
"Marvelous cure for seasickness, blind terror."
Please remove NOSPAM from my address when replying.
Marcus Graham
butle...@aol.com (Butler1918) wrote:
> >> Revolvers were handed to the officers and during this time I believe that
> >> captain Smith ordered some gates to be locked in order to prevent things
> >> from going out of hands.
>
> This typical of your lack of research and abysmal lack of critical thinking
> facitlites, Marcus. There is no documentation that an "order" to lock the
No, there is no documentation of an order being issued, and I wouldn't
expect there to be one either. As I said this was extremely damaging to WSL,
and could put the whole company at risk if it ever came out. In this case I
have viewed existing circumstantial evidence and reached the conclusion that
such an order had to have been given at some point, and precisely when we
will never figure out for sure.
> gates was given by Captain Smith at any time. On eof the few things that Joe
> Knapp and I agree on is that there were no specific orders to the crew
> concerning the gates--if there had been thenb Knapp and I wouldn't diagree so
> strongly on the hows and whys of those gates being locked. Secondly, your
I'm happy to hear that you agree, but, pardon me, that doesn't prove or
disprove anything I said in my scenario.
> timing if so far off as to be laughable: Smith had th firearms distributed
> between 0110 and 0115--and there is more than sufficent testimony that some of
> the gates and barricades were either locked or blocked well before that.
So now you agree that gates were being locked? I thought you just said
that they were locked on departure. I hope all this spinning doesn't give you
a headache! :))
> Steward Hart's testimony about bringing up two groups of women from steerage
> while the men still being told to stay below. Hart left thed ship about 0120,
> in Boat 15 This is only minutes after Smith had the firearms distributed.
>
I haven't read steward Hart's testimony, but it seems very telling and
valuable. It indeed points to gates being locked earlier also.
> You keep trying to have it both ways on everything Marcus, and it won't work.
> You can't have the Captain ordering the gates to Thrid Class locked at 0115,
Don't twist my words. I never gave any specific time, it is you who insist
on giving exact times even though testimonies show that this was almost never
the case during the sinking. I guess people had other things on their minds
than watching their clocks.
> when half the boats are gone, then have hundreds of people swarming onto the
> upper decks from steerage forty-five minutes later. You can't have Third
Class
Yes I can, as one thing doesn't necessarily exclude the other. I believe
that attempts at forcing the gates were made, and some were succeeding, both
earlier and later on. However the huge crowds that rushed up very late
during the sinking tends, in my view to point to a more organized attempt at
blocking exits later, somewhere around one, otherwise we would have seen a
more steady flow of people on deck, not the sudden rush, unless we like to
believe that people freely stayed down under deck almost until the ship took
its final plunge. Indeed many testified that there was trouble finding ANY
women when loading the boats, and furthermore that the deck was empty, half
empty, and so forth.
> being barred from the upper decks at half past midnight then have an "order"
> come down forty-five minutes later telling the crew to do what they've already
> done. Make up your mind, laddie, what'll it be?
>
We will never know exactly when things happened, and there are as always
statements that may appear contradictory but don't necessarily have to be.
One explanation could be that this particular steward acted without specific
orders. The ship was sinking and I don't believe that we can expect each and
every crew member to act totally according to rules.
If steward Hart had already received his order I don't expect to find any
admittance of it. The immense sense of guilt that these crew members must
have felt is unimaginable. Furthermore they were dependent on their jobs,
and were very afraid of saying anything that might upset their employers.
No commercial line would ever employ a snitch, obviously.
> And this crock about Second Class being locked out--who does your research,
> Geraldo Rivera?
> >> the big losses among third and second class were ultimately the result of
> >> gates being locked. . . .
> >
> Oh, puh-leeze. You've just managed to shoot yourself in the foot here,
laddie.
> There's no ambiguity of languiage or technical obfuscation here. You just
> plain don't know what you're talking about.
>
There is no proof that categorically shows that second class was in no way
hindered to reach deck. I believe they were to some extent, and their big
losses tend to point to this possibility. It should have been fairly easy
for them to reach boat deck, yet so few of the men were rescued, just eight
percent, even fewer than the third class men, while 33 percent of men from
first class were saved. Admittedly many of the women and children were
saved, but I would still like to hear a good explanation for the second
class men. Perhaps you could give us such an explanation, instead of just
attacking those who disagree with you. I would love to hear it!
Best Regards,
Marcus
Joe Knapp
M. Perry wrote in message <3623F8...@postoffice.worldnet.att.net>...
>Joe Knapp wrote:
>
>> Most of the crew who escaped did so in the third class boats,
>> which were not generally reserved for women and children,
>> but were more of a free for all. These were the boats in the
>> aft part of the ship.
>
>Forgive me if I'm late to this particular party, but are you suggesting
>here that there were designated third class boats? And what do you mean
>by "reserved" for women and children? Please clarify.
Surely you know that the boats were reserved for women
and children, as a general policy. It wasn't always followed
to the letter, but that was the policy. "Women and children
first." Since women and children went down with the ship
in fairly large numbers, the policy should have still been
in effect at the end.
The first class boats were boats 1-8. These carried first
class passengers in a 10:1 ratio. They were nowhere
near full.
The third class boats were boats 13, 15, and 16. These
boats also carried a large contingent of crew and male
passengers. These boats were loaded to the gunwales.
The ratio of third class passengers in these boats to
the total passengers was 5:1.
The segregation was enforced by the officers of the
White Star line. Lawrence Beesley reported hearing
an officer turning a woman away from the first
class boats, informing her that her boats were on her
own deck.
Collapsible C was loaded very late in the game, at the initiative
of Col. Gracie and others, with third class passengers
(women and children mostly) whom they had fetched from
the rear. At that time, the first and second class women and
children were practically all gone, and protocol demanded
an effort to get more W&C, at least for Gracie. It's interesting
that men also got on this boat, including Ismay and Carter.
Joe
M. Perry
here. You make it sound as if there were some addendum in the White
Star manual which stated that the boats were "reserved" for women and
children in case of emergency, when in fact this "policy" was
implemented that night, in that instance, at the orders of the ship's
Captain. It's just a language thing.
As for the rest of your post, it would appear that you are giving the
official designation "third class boat" to those who actually carried
the larger percentage of third class, crew, etc. From your writing, it
appears that you are saying there were specific boats "reserved" for
first, second, and third class, which is simply not true.
Thank you for citing it, but I've read the quote about "your boats are
on your own deck" before. But here it seems that you are basing your
conclusion that there were in fact officially designated third class
boats all on the statement of one particular crew member who was more
than likely trying to rid himself of what he perceived to be a momentary
nuisance.
As to that crew man -- can you say "misinformed"?
Mark
--
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
"Marvelous cure for seasickness, blind terror."
Please remove NOSPAM from my address when replying.
Joe Knapp
M. Perry wrote in message <36242B...@postoffice.worldnet.att.net>...
>Well, duh.
'Nuff said I guess.
Joe
j...@worldnet.att.net
> As to that crew man -- can you say "misinformed"?
Make that:
"Well-informed, SIR!"
I know it's uncomfortable for some to accept,
and seems therefore to have the sticking power
of Teflon[ā], but Beesley referred to an officer
of the White Star line.
The amusing thing is that Beesley has
somewhat of an aura of impeccability,
and the urge to gang-tackle him is repressed.
Instead, the facts are gang-tackled.
Joe
kpk...@acpub.duke.edu
Marcus Graham wrote:
> No, there is no documentation of an order being issued, and I wouldn't
> expect there to be one either. As I said this was extremely damaging to WSL,
> and could put the whole company at risk if it ever came out. In this case I
> have viewed existing circumstantial evidence and reached the conclusion that
> such an order had to have been given at some point, and precisely when we
> will never figure out for sure.
This is what I mean by the "circular logic" used to support charges of
discrimination.
1- the gates were locked.
...but the gates were locked in accordance with immigration regulations.
2- orders were issued to lock the gates so that the 3rd-Class passengers
would not overwhelm the Boat Deck.
...no evidence or statements have ever shown such orders to have been
given.
3- any evidence of the orders was destroyed as part of the conspiracy.
...and no private letters, anecdotes told to family & friends years or
decades later, no testimony by witnesses hostile to White Star, etc. has
ever surfaced. Obviously very skilled conspirators!
Return to point 1. Mix in some slander and innuendo, and gobbledygook
about statistics (in spite of the fact that 2nd-Class and the crew both
suffered a higher casualty rate). There's your "proof" that WSL and
Titanic's officers & crew planned and followed a policy of vicious
discrimination against the 3rd-Class passengers. QED.
Why have I doubted it all these years?!? (apology for sarcasm)
Regards- Doug King
kpk...@acpub.duke.edu
> Surely you know that the boats were reserved for women
> and children,
Surely they were no such thing. The general ideal in all disasters was
(and still is, as far as I'm concerned) "women and children first." That
doesn't make the boats reserved. Can you pay just a tiny bit more
attention to semantics?
> The first class boats were boats 1-8. These carried first
> class passengers in a 10:1 ratio. They were nowhere
> near full.
If they were reserved for first class, how come anybody else was in them
at all, in any ratio? Neither Joe Knapp nor anybody else has ever shown
this to be the case, and simply referring to it as if it were fact
doesn't make it so.
> The third class boats were boats 13, 15, and 16.
Source, please.
> The segregation was enforced by the officers of the
> White Star line. Lawrence Beesley reported hearing
> an officer turning a woman away from the first
> class boats, informing her that her boats were on her
> own deck.
One statement from one un-named officer overheard by Lawrence Beesley
doesn't make a policy.
-Doug King