The 32 Compass Points?
John M. Feeney
A compass "point", as used in 1912 referred to an angle 1/32 of the full
compass (11-1/4 degrees), right?
I've also heard somewhere along the way that sailors were previously
required to learn the *names* of all the points and be able to recite them
in order.
Now, 16 of these are obvious: N, NNE, NE, ENE, E, and so on.
But what are the intervening 16 called? Is this where that "North by" type
of lingo comes into play? (As in "North by Northwest".)
Do we have any "old salts" who can name these and describe the meaning?
Thanks,
John
ashleyrunt
"John M. Feeney" wrote in message
> A compass "point", as used in 1912 referred to an angle 1/32 of the full
> compass (11-1/4 degrees), right?
11 degrees / 15`
> Now, 16 of these are obvious: N, NNE, NE, ENE, E, and so on.
>
> But what are the intervening 16 called? Is this where that "North by" type
> of lingo comes into play? (As in "North by Northwest".)
Thats right John,
the other points are N by E / NN by E / E by N ect.
Yours,
Ashley Runt
Daniel Allen Butler
>
>Thanks,
>John
>
Just follow them around, John, and you'll have successfully "boxed the
compass."
North = N, East = E, South = S, West = W
N
N by E
NNE by N
NNE
NNE by E
NE by N
NE
NE by E
ENE by N
ENE
ENE by E
E by N
E
E by S
ESE by E
ESE
ESE by S
SE by E
SE
SE by S
SSE by E
SSE
SSE by S
S by E
S
S by W
SSW by S
SSW
SSW by W
SW by S
SW
SW by W
WSW by S
WSW
WSW by W
W by S
W
W by N
WNW by W
WNW
WNW by N
NW by W
NW
NW by N
NNW by W
NNW
NNW by N
N by W
Which brings us back to North.
My Dad taught me how to box the compass when I was ten years old.
Daniel Allen Butler
(The Hammer)
The opinions expressed here are not necessarily those of the management, but
they ought to be!
John M. Feeney
>> Now, 16 of these are obvious: N, NNE, NE, ENE, E, and so on.
>>
>> But what are the intervening 16 called? Is this where that "North by" type
>> of lingo comes into play? (As in "North by Northwest".)
>
>Thats right John,
>the other points are N by E / NN by E / E by N ect.
Hi, Ashley:
Thanks, but I don't quite follow you there.
Would the 1st nine points then be:
N N by E NNE NNE by E NE NE by E ENE E by N?
Is there a strict formal naming for each, or could a "by" in either
direction be used for most -- for example, "N by E" = "NNE by N"?
Thanks,
John
ashleyrunt
Ashley
"John M. Feeney" <schla...@mindspring.com> wrote in message
news:vmrp3usshroucs3bq...@4ax.com...
Dave Tuttle
ashleyrunt <ashle...@ntlworld.com> wrote in message
news:9X4%7.5288$X87.9...@news2-win.server.ntlworld.com...
and of course,
Over Yonder, Thataways, There, Backabit, a wee bit over, justahairto the
right, justahairto the left, straight on, Backaways, back yonder.
Dave Tuttle
Dave Tuttle
IN---OUT---IN---OUT---IN---
(Just for you, Frank)
Dave
ashleyrunt <ashle...@ntlworld.com> wrote in message
news:9X4%7.5288$X87.9...@news2-win.server.ntlworld.com...
>
Tom Pappas
http://www.education.qld.gov.au/tal/kla/compass/html/cobox.htm
--
"But this script can't sink!"
"She is made of irony, sir. She can, and she will."
"John M. Feeney" <schla...@mindspring.com> wrote in message
news:2njp3ukqdt6gqhu49...@4ax.com...
otnmbrd
My memory says:
N
NxE
NNE
NExN
NE
NExE
ENE
ExN
E
.....and continued on, around, each point being 11.25 deg.
Also, if memory serves, this was further broken down into what was
referred to as 1/4 points, which were roughly 4 deg
otn
binnacle
"otnmbrd" < wrote in message ..
Seamen are indebted to the Portuguese map-maker Pedro Reinel
who drew the first now standard 32 point compass rose with the
fleur-de-lis indicating north and the cross east (towards the holy land).
For practical purposes on many ships seamen steered by quarter points
i.e. 2* 48' 45". Able bodied seaman during my time in the fo'c'sle were
expected to know the quarter points.
N
N 1/4 E
N 1/2 E
N 3/4 E
N x E
N x E 1/4 E
N x E 1/2 E
N x E 3/4 E
NNE etc.
Most seamen could also box the "Cobbler's Compass",
not used for practical purposes, but a test of compass knowledge.
The cardinal points being - Nail, Heel, Sole, Welt.
Nail
Nail x Heel
Nail Nail Heel
Nail Heel x Nail
Nail Heel
Nail Heel x Heel
Heel Nail Heel
Heel x Nail
Heel x Sole
Heel Sole Heel etc to
Sole
Sole by Welt etc to
Welt
Welt x Nail etc. to
Nail
Regards,
Bill
>
> otn
>
otnmbrd
binnacle wrote:
>
>
> Seamen are indebted to the Portuguese map-maker Pedro Reinel
> who drew the first now standard 32 point compass rose with the
> fleur-de-lis indicating north and the cross east (towards the holy land).
> For practical purposes on many ships seamen steered by quarter points
> i.e. 2* 48' 45". Able bodied seaman during my time in the fo'c'sle were
> expected to know the quarter points.
> N
> N 1/4 E
> N 1/2 E
> N 3/4 E
> N x E
> N x E 1/4 E
> N x E 1/2 E
> N x E 3/4 E
> NNE etc.
>
Thanks, Bill. I knew there was something wrong with my description of "1/4
points" .... although, simple math should have helped jog my memory more.
At the beginning of my career, we were not taught "1/4 points", and in fact,
it was a few years later, that I learned of there existence.
The only people I've ever heard actively using these, were some fishermen of
Portuguese decent, in the New England area, back in the 60's and early 70's
...... which is not to say others weren't or still aren't, using them.
otn
John M. Feeney
>N
>NxE
>NNE
>NExN
>NE
>NExE
>ENE
>ExN
>E
Hi, otn!
This looks the kind of standardized naming scheme I remembered hearing of
in passing. (It would make sense, too, since it describes each point in the
simplest way, i.e., "ExN" rather than the more cumbersome ENExE).
Dan Butler wrote:
... of "boxing the compass" -- does this imply including alternate names
for the sake of completeness, with the understanding that they don't all
indicate discrete points? (Some synonyms.) As in:
N
N by E
(=NNE by N)
NNE
NNE by E
(=NE by N)
NE
NE by E
(=ENE by N)
ENE
ENE by E
(=E by N)
E
E by S
(=ESE by E)
ESE
ESE by S
(=SE by E)
SE
SE by S
(=SSE by E)
SSE
SSE by S
(=S by E)
S
S by W
(=SSW by S)
SSW
SSW by W
(=SW by S)
SW
SW by W
(=WSW by S)
WSW
WSW by W
(=W by S)
W
W by N
(=WNW by W)
WNW
WNW by N
(=NW by W)
NW
NW by N
(=NNW by W)
NNW
NNW by N
(=N by W)
OR, is this indeed a 48-point scheme using TWO gradations between each
"cardinal" point? (I *think* the basic 16 easier ones are referred to as
the "cardinal compass points", though it's been a LONG time since I saw
that.)
Thanks, guys!
Cheers,
John
John M. Feeney
>Here's a nice graphical representation:
>http://www.education.qld.gov.au/tal/kla/compass/html/cobox.htm
Pictures!
Thanks, Tom. I see now I was wrong about the "cardinal" compass points,
too. (Thought there were 16, but that's from *wa-a-ay* back in Boy Scouts.)
Nice link! It does help lots, especially since when I try to construct that
verbally, I *still* need to conjure up a mental image.
Much appreciated.
John
Douglas King
> >Here's a nice graphical representation:
> >http://www.education.qld.gov.au/tal/kla/compass/html/cobox.htm
>
>
> Pictures!
>
> Thanks, Tom. I see now I was wrong about the "cardinal" compass points,
> too. (Thought there were 16, but that's from *wa-a-ay* back in Boy Scouts.)
>
> Nice link! It does help lots, especially since when I try to construct that
> verbally, I *still* need to conjure up a mental image.
Thanks 2, Tom. Worth bookmarking.
All the compasses I have seen that were marked off in points were "dry"
compasses, ie the card pivoted on a needle and swung around in air; instead of
being floated in liquid under a dome like "modern" compasses. Just for an
experiment, a friend and I took a box compass out on a short cruise in a
sailboat. We found that it was just as good as a modern compass, once we found
the deviations and the helmsman became accustomed to points instead of degrees.
Regards- Doug King
Bob Botts
Now you've got me wondering why we used so many points.
When does it become more convenient to use a compass with
numerical increments?
--
Cheers... Bob
"They are ill discoverers that think there is no land,
when they can see nothing but sea." -- Francis Bacon
JAMES ALEXANDER CARLISLE
6400 mils on a compass!
Jim Carlisle
Daniel Allen Butler
>6400 mils on a compass!
>
>Jim Carlisle
Crikey, Jimmie! Will ye be callin' doon a STONK on the wee target next?
John M. Feeney
>Now you've got me wondering why we used so many points.
>When does it become more convenient to use a compass with
>numerical increments?
I was wondering similar myself. On the other hand, it does seem far easier,
from a practical standpoint, to successively bisect angles -- physically
and mentally -- than it would be to attempt to construct those 1-degree
increments around a 90-degree quadrant. (Once the initial halving to 45
degrees is done, it's all fractional from there.)
It was the Greeks who came up with 90 degrees in a right angle, wasn't it?
But why 90? Why not 64 -- easy to construct by bisecting? That system of
quarter-points gives 32 increments per quadrant -- pretty high precision if
you allow "halfway between" as a possibility.
Cheers,
John
binnacle
"otnmbrd" < wrote in message ..
>
>"1/4 > points" .... although, simple math should have helped jog my
> memory more. At the beginning of my career, we were not taught
"1/4 points", and in fact, > it was a few years later, that I learned of
there existence. The only people I've ever heard actively using these,
were some fishermen of Portuguese decent, in the New England area,
back in the 60's and early 70's ...... which is not to say others weren't
or still aren't, using them.
I can't claim that figure came out my head, I had to dig out an old
seamanship manual showing "table of compass angles" to refresh
my brain. I remember, many years ago, a Norwegian coast pilot telling me
about boarding a Hull trawler and giving the helmsman a course to steer
in quarter points, he heard the man at the wheel mumbling " b****y gales,
b****y snow and b****y quarter points."
Regards,
Bill
>
> otn
Bob Botts
"John M. Feeney" wrote:
>
> It was the Greeks who came up with 90 degrees in a right angle, wasn't it?
> But why 90? Why not 64 -- easy to construct by bisecting? That system of
> quarter-points gives 32 increments per quadrant -- pretty high precision if
> you allow "halfway between" as a possibility.
>
> Cheers,
> John
The 360 degree circle jsut might have something to do with
measuring time, i.e. the Sun transits ~ 1 degree/day along
the ecliptic.
I suppose my question should have included asking what the
tolerance for navigating a course might be. If one finds it
impossible to maintain a course within say 5 degrees of true
with rather ancient vessels, how is it practical to use
cardinal points which measure in half degree increments?
I'm also curious to know if there was a correlation between
the number of spokes on the ship's wheel and the number of
degrees a rudder will turn for with every revolution, (one
might imagine that it may not be standardized even amongst
similarly constructed vessels).
Any of you mariners know the answer?
otnmbrd
Bob Botts wrote:
> "John M. Feeney" wrote:
>
> >
> > It was the Greeks who came up with 90 degrees in a right angle, wasn't it?
> > But why 90? Why not 64 -- easy to construct by bisecting? That system of
> > quarter-points gives 32 increments per quadrant -- pretty high precision if
> > you allow "halfway between" as a possibility.
> >
> > Cheers,
> > John
>
> The 360 degree circle jsut might have something to do with
> measuring time, i.e. the Sun transits ~ 1 degree/day along
> the ecliptic.
>
> I suppose my question should have included asking what the
> tolerance for navigating a course might be. If one finds it
> impossible to maintain a course within say 5 degrees of true
> with rather ancient vessels, how is it practical to use
> cardinal points which measure in half degree increments?
I'm not sure I understand this question, but I'll give it a shot.
Regardless of whether you are steering by "points" or "degrees" on a compass, the
helmsman's job is to maintain that heading that has been chosen, so that, if the
compass card is marked with "points" and/or "1/4 points", then he would be given
one of those points, to steer to.
His ability to maintain that heading, will depend on many factors, and the amount
of leeway allowed, in maintaining that heading, would be based on those factors.
>
>
> I'm also curious to know if there was a correlation between
> the number of spokes on the ship's wheel and the number of
> degrees a rudder will turn for with every revolution, (one
> might imagine that it may not be standardized even amongst
> similarly constructed vessels).
It's not standardized, nor could I say the number of spokes on a wheel was
standardized, either. Most helmsman, with any experience on a particular ship,
will know, roughly, how many spokes of the wheel, will give him how many degrees
of rudder.
Having said this, this is for vessels with "rudder angle indicators".
For those without these indicators, other factors became important .... such as
number of turns of the wheel, lock to lock, or midships to lock, and a feel for
how many spokes were needed to get a certain response, in a varying set of
conditions.
Some newer electric systems use very little "wheel" turn to get hard rudder ....
maybe 90 deg .... course there are now many, with no wheel at all.
otn
Tony Crompton
>
> It's not standardized, nor could I say the number of spokes on a wheel was
> standardized, either. Most helmsman, with any experience on a particular
ship,
> will know, roughly, how many spokes of the wheel, will give him how many
degrees
> of rudder.
> Having said this, this is for vessels with "rudder angle indicators".
> For those without these indicators, other factors became important ....
such as
> number of turns of the wheel, lock to lock, or midships to lock, and a
feel for
> how many spokes were needed to get a certain response, in a varying set of
> conditions.
> Some newer electric systems use very little "wheel" turn to get hard
rudder ....
> maybe 90 deg .... course there are now many, with no wheel at all.
>
> otn
Hi,
I totally agree with this reply. The place to find wheels with spokes
these days is in antique shops or on ancient mariners walls. Real
ships usually have just a lever or a small knob to turn. They
certainly do not have the "Feel" of a ships wheel and the ability
to return to Midships unless you hold the wheel at the position
you required.
Modern Auto Pilots are often calibrated in tenths of a degree
though whether they have the ability to steer to this accuracy
is debateable.
Steering by spokes is something that was done at sea to keep
a compass course rather than when manoeuvring when greater
rudder angles were required. If the ship wandered off the heading
you would turn the wheel by just one or 2 spokes. Nothing would
happen very quickly and if the ship did not respond then perhaps
"Give her another spoke" and she would slowly return to her course.
This would alter the rudder angle only very slightly but enough to
alter the heading. Using more helm would leave a ships wake like #
the proverbial dogs leg and get you a boll***ing from the mate on watch.
He only had to look aft at the wake to see how accurately you
were steering.
A two hour spell at the wheel could be as boring as a 2 hour
lookout, but it soon became pure routine and you would
notice the ship off course and your response became automatic
even though your mind might be thousands of miles away.
Best Wishes,
Tony C.
Bob Botts
otnmbrd wrote:
>
...snip...
>
> It's not standardized, nor could I say the number of spokes on a wheel was
> standardized, either. Most helmsman, with any experience on a particular ship,
> will know, roughly, how many spokes of the wheel, will give him how many degrees
> of rudder.
> Having said this, this is for vessels with "rudder angle indicators".
> For those without these indicators, other factors became important .... such as
> number of turns of the wheel, lock to lock, or midships to lock, and a feel for
> how many spokes were needed to get a certain response, in a varying set of
> conditions.
> Some newer electric systems use very little "wheel" turn to get hard rudder ....
> maybe 90 deg .... course there are now many, with no wheel at all.
>
> otn
>
Thanks.
One of the reasons that I was curious about all of this, is
that years ago I acquired an old bronze rudder angle
indicator at a garage sale. The indicator had one degree
increments and I assume was linked to the rudder post via a
series of cables and pulleys.
I can send a picture of it if you like.
otnmbrd
Bob Botts wrote:
>
> Thanks.
>
> One of the reasons that I was curious about all of this, is
> that years ago I acquired an old bronze rudder angle
> indicator at a garage sale. The indicator had one degree
> increments and I assume was linked to the rudder post via a
> series of cables and pulleys.
>
> I can send a picture of it if you like.
>
> --
> Cheers... Bob
>
Feel free to send the picture.
I'm familiar with two types of rudder angle indicator.
The first and one used today, is an electrical setup, where in the steering gear flat,
there is a unit connected to the rudder which transmits a signal to a receiving unit
on the bridge (hard wired). The advantage here, being that not only does it give you
an fairly accurate reading of the rudder angle, it shows you the speed and movement of
the rudder ..... for those engineering types, I apologize for the "deckie" description
of the engineering involved.
The other indicator was found on many steering stands, and was in reality a mechanical
hook-up to the telemotor stand at the particular station. This system indicated rudder
angle, based on the movement of the wheel, and not the actual rudder, so though quite
useful, it had it's drawbacks ..... and this may be what you have.
otn
binnacle
"Tony Crompton" < wrote in message.
>
> A two hour spell at the wheel could be as boring as a 2 hour
> lookout, but it soon became pure routine and you would
> notice the ship off course and your response became automatic
> even though your mind might be thousands of miles away.
I sailed on an ex Hansa Line ship which had been taken over.
She had been fitted with push button steering when built in 1944.
When I joined her this steering gear had just been removed as it
was found that seamen tended to be button happy and the ship
swung all over the place. (The Germans must have managed okay)
Unfortunately in heavy weather the steering flat was flooded and we
went from the English Channel to Genoa on the emergency steering.
It was thirty turns of the wheel from midships to hard over. Fortunately
one spoke could be locked down at right angles and the wheel was
wound (like a laundry mangle). The time at the wheel was reduced
from the normal two hours to one. I was certainly glad to see Genoa,
as there was no time to think about anything bar winding that wheel
more or less continuously. There were a number of labour saving
devices on that ship which I had never seen on British built ships,
it gave me a high opinion of German ship designers, self stowing
chain lockers, dolly winches for topping derricks etc.
Regards,
Bill
>
> Best Wishes,
>
> Tony C.
>
>
Bob Botts
I've just sent the photo to the newsgroup
alt.binaries.photography with the subject header "Rudder
indicator" for those of you who are interested.