Re: Good grief
Tim Trower
About two years ago I reviewed his eBook The Indifferent Stranger, an
excellent book he authored about the Californian and her refusal to
come to the aid of the Titanic as she lay sinking. As is the norm, I
submitted this review to the editor of The Titanic Commutator for
publication (the Titanic Historical Society has the right of first
refusal to all of my maritime reviews). Due to a long-standing policy
of not running reviews for any electronically based books, the review
was turned down.
Big deal. I posted it on Encyclopedia Titanica, on Titanic-Titanic
and on the THS message boards. I also gave Paul Lee specific
permission to use this review in any way he saw fit. Here is
correspondence from December 1, 2008 from Lee to me, and my earlier
email:
Thanks Tim,
I appreciate it. How are you keeping? Things are OK here. I plan to go
to Greenwich on wednesday to get some more Lord-Macquitty items. This
time I'll be taking my laptop so I can transcribe the letters and
notes and put them on my website by the following weekend. Watch this
space!
Best wishes
Paul
On Mon, Dec 1, 2008 at 2:21 AM, Timothy Trower wrote:
Paul,
Just wanted to let you know that I've posted the review of The
Indifferent Stranger on the new THS message board at
http://www.titanichistoricalsociety.net/forum/viewtopic.php?f=139&t=93
We are steadily adding members, avoiding (so far) any of the strife
found elsewhere, and having some good discussions while we are at it.
Hope that you and your lovely bride are well, and I'll talk to you
later.
Best regards,
Tim
Seems like no one had a problem here – this is after his eBook review
was turned down by the THS.
And then the attacks began.
First, in April 2009 on the THS message board, Lee went out of bounds
with a personal attack on another message board member. We don’t
tolerate this type of behavior, and he was banned. Attacks began to
show up on other message boards, and he was eventually banned from
Titanic-Titanic; even on Encyclopedia Titanica, Phil Hind has
publically condemned this behavior; Lee is no longer even displaying
his website inasmuch as it leads to a personal blog containing some of
the most vile attacks on several individuals (myself included). These
attacks are in some cases libelous, slanderous, and certainly outside
of the bounds of proper decorum.
When Lee was banned from the THS message board, I sent the following
email to him on April 16, 2009. I’ve shortened the message a bit
since part of the preceding three paragraphs dealt with a group that
is not a part of this discussion:
You can't blame any one person or organization for the lack of sales
of your eBook. We allow signatures to contain a wide variety of URLs
and information, and your signature proudly advertises your eBook on
every single forum that I've seen you post on. According to the list
of members of the THSMB, T-T and ET, there are more readers of my
review of your eBook on those forums than there are members of the
THS, and I've continued (and will continue) to tout it as one of, if
not the best book dealing with the Californian. The free market is
what it is, and if people want to buy your book, they will. Problem
is that this type of investigative book on the Californian interests a
very small group of people, and you are only going to reach about half
of that already small group due to strong feelings on the subject of
Captain Lord. Even though your eBook is a quality work, that just
isn't going to guarantee sales.
We've left your comments up on the Californian thread because there
may be some valid points in what was said. Anyone who knows you also
knows that you've had a bit of a strain health-wise and can see in
your posts that you were venting a bit. But we aren't in the business
of parsing every post; the moderators don't have the time but at the
same time we will not allow the board to become a dumping ground for
people's frustrations. At some point -- and the post yesterday
crossed the line -- you've got to move on. Your other posts are part
of the historical record and will not be removed -- as on any other
message board, ET and T-T included. (Paul had demanded that all of
his posts be removed from the THS message board.)
I value my friendship with you and don't want this issue to ruin it.
Please let this drop, continue to self-promote your eBook (as will I)
and get back to the Titanic research that you do so well. You've a
gift of being able to make the complex very understandable to the
average reader, and I want to see more of that from you. Some of this
may sound harsh, but some of it can only come from a friend.
All the best,
Tim
This unfortunately prompted attacks – some subtle, some with the
imprint of a beached Great Blue Whale. I was sent a private message
from a member of a message board who advised me of a rather sinister
type of attack on myself, and others with whom Lee has a grudge
against.
If you scroll down to the bottom left of his homepage, you’ll see half-
a-dozen or so small characters, each one is a hidden email address,
yours is one of them, so is Inger's (Inger Sheil) too.
It's a classic way to to encourage email address harvesting bots to
collect email addresses!
Bizarrely, Carly's (Paul Lee’s wife) is there too, so might be
innocuous, however, I doubt it.
I’ve deleted the name of the sender of this message but, of course,
have retained the original. This prompted me to send out the
following email to all of the twenty eddresses that were so abused:
On 27 Nov 2009, at 16:18, "Timothy Trower" wrote:
Sorry to intrude on your day, but I've just been alerted to the fact
that my eddress, as well as that of nineteen others, is posted at the
bottom of the webpage found at http://www.paullee.com/ . At the very
bottom of the page on the left is a small string of characters, each
representing an eddress (they are listed in the same order that they
are on this email to you). This is a hidden trick used to subject the
eddress to spammers -- bots that roam each page glean these eddresses
and they are then sold to these same spam operators.
The personal eddress of Paul Lee is pa...@xxxxxxx.com . As someone
with whom Paul Lee may have a grudge against, I thought that you may
want to take action against this use of your eddress in such a manner.
Best regards,
Tim Trower
This prompted an email from Lee to me on November 27, 2009:
I should have expected such a gutless attack from you regarding my
website but I have been "tipped off" that you alerted people in my
list of email addressses. Nver mind, such an approach is in hand as we
speak. Other gutless, spiteful rekarks such as the "TIT", the
remorceless attack and unnecessary attack on non-THS groups should
have alerted me but never mind. I see what a spiteful person you are
and I see what you are like, combatting other people who don't share
your belief. Perhaps in future you should just pull the trousers down
off the Kamudas and kiss their arses? After all, Ed and Kamuda can do
no wrong. Sucking up to your friends is what you're
best at, after all. I am ashamed to think you were ever a friend of
mine and am I glad that your lickspittle name is nowhere to be found
amongst my friends.
I replied:
You are up far too late this evening and are not making sense. Go to
bed and get some rest.
Tim
He then responded by posting this message on Titanic-Titanic:
Re: Pensioner claims he owns the Titanic
by DrPL » Fri Nov 27, 2009 8:15 pm
"Why? Just because you're a sycophantic lickspittle who sucks up to
theTHS and thought he coule still be friends even when he banned me
from the THS over a minor matter."
I then sent the following email to him:
Please provide proof that I banned you from the THSMB. Since I can
prove otherwise by showing the Admin. logs, this should be
interesting.
One note that you need to remember. The example that has been set by
Tom McCluskie by taking legal action against Phil Hind and others that
are responsible for slanderous and libelous attacks on Tom and his
character should be closely watched. That McCluskie has an excellent
legal position is without question, as is the fact that by having
posts and comments archived and saved his legal position has been
strengthened even further.
So, ask yourself. Do you want legal action taken against you? It can
and will happen if you don't tone down the venom. Can you afford an
attorney? How many more DVDs and books do you have to sell? Hind is,
by his own admission, well into the four figures (pounds sterling) and
it is widely believed that this figure is low.
Get over the fact that the THS didn't run the review of your eBook.
That is a stated policy of the THS -- not even Dave Gittin's eBook was
reviewed. Additionally, blaming me or the Kamudas for the lack of
sales isn't the reason that your sales have lagged. People want hard
copies of the books they purchase so that they can be read anywhere.
The Californian is an esoteric subject for which half of the Titanic
community doesn't care about, and half of the remaining community
won't consider buying it because it holds a contrary view to what they
believe.
If you want to sell and make money from your books, promote it.
Advertise it. (Buy an advertisement in the Commutator.) But stop
blaming everyone else for your own problems.
Regards,
Tim
At this point, I still maintained some hope that our former friendship
could be salvaged. Many of the twenty eddresses to which I sent an
email responded to me with measures of rage and outrage. They
included people who worked for firms for which Lee applied for work
and was turned down, people who seem to have once worked with Lee, and
Titanic figures such as Inger Sheil and Senan Molony. The tiny icons
were replaced with nonsensical links to strange art and posters, and
eventually disappeared altogether.
On November 30, 2009, Lee’s wife Carly sent the following email to the
twenty eddresses that her husband was allowing to be harvested for
spammers:
Hello,
My name is Carly, Paul's wife.
Could I please ask that this constant pestering of Paul please stop.
His health has dteriorated very much in the last months due to stress
and he has collapsed twice, the last time on Saturday when we were
shopping and he blacked out. The doctors are concerned about his
wellbeing, and suspect that a cardiac arythmia might be the problem.
If Paul does not get his stress level down the doctrs think he might
be dead by Christmas (they didn't tell him that). We are due more
tests today.
If anyone knows who is sending hate mail to paul could these please do
what they can to help. Last year we started getting messages just
before Christmas. I think it was intended to do what they could do to
ruin our christmas and it worked. Paul had a severe nervous breakdown
and was comatose for a lot of the time. One message which I remmeber
said that he or she wanted to carve Paul up and put his pieces in
refuse sacks spread around Europe. The police couldn't trace exactly
who was sending these messages, but narrowed the countries down to the
USA, Netherlands, Mexico, Ireland and a few others. I thought this
year would be OK but the
messages have started up again, and I think people are trying to kill
Paul once and for all. We have to keep moving occasionally to prevent
those filled with hate from finding us. We were due to move again soon
but this won't happen now. Now our plans for the future seem ruined.
Regards
Carly
To which I responded, again, to all twenty eddresses:
Carly,
Only an apology by Paul to each of us affected by this blatant
spamming tool will end my efforts to hold Paul to account.
I am very sorry for his health concerns -- as you know very well, I
cared very much about Paul during his last episode of poor health, but
very much dislike being made the goat for, or lack of, book sales. If
you would like the full string of email messages and posts that he has
made at my expense, I can forward them to you. But frankly, I know
that you both love Paul and have a great deal of influence over him --
and I urge you to prevail upon him to stop this campaign of his.
I deplore the types of messages that you've received in the past, and
hope that you are able to find those responsible. That is the type of
personal attack that has ruined Encyclopedia Titanica for so many
people (mind you, these types of messages are a step beyond what has
happened in that forum) and I doubt seriously that any of the
recipients of this email would disagree with this sentiment. I don't
want Paul's health to suffer, and he can help that my getting out of
this persecuted phase of his -- and by taking responsibility for his
actions in supplying our eddresses to bots to be supplied to spammers
is a great first step.
Paul is a world-class researcher and excellent technical writer, and
his book on the Californian is still the best anti-Lord book to be
written -- nothing he has done or is doing is going to change my
opinion of this work -- but he is throwing away his life over a
grudge, and as one of his current targets, I am deeply saddened over
this.
As before, I will gladly pray both for Paul's health and your
endurance. And I will also seek ways to stop his vendetta against me.
Cordially yours,
Tim Trower
Part of his “revenge” is being a part of an anti-THS Facebook group
called the “I Hate the Titanic Historical Society”, with closed
content. Two different friends of mine were invited to join, did so,
and immediately ended their membership due to the vitriol spewed on
that group. The posts were, I understand, quite interesting.
Another part of his “revenge” are frequent attacks – rants, they are
called by those who have read them – against anyone with whom he
disagrees on his personal blog, Bouquets and Brickbats. In the
Titanic community, these attacks have included diatribes against
myself (numerous times), Ed and Karen Kamuda, Tom McCluskie, Senan
Molony, Rob Kamps and others including Titanic-Titanic and even
Encyclopedia Titanica – he was incensed that Phil Hind wouldn’t give
him a free membership.
Interestingly enough, a common theme in his personal blog is that of
poverty. He says that he quit his job to write the book The
Indifferent Stranger and that since the THS didn’t run a review, his
book didn’t sell and he therefore is now on the mercy of friends and
family for money to feed his Guinea Pigs, pay the rent, and buy food
for he and his wife. After attacking his parents for not supporting
him, and then questioning their motives when they offered help but
wanted to see their finances, his parents went ahead and started
giving Lee £300 a month. In what must have been one of his first
moves, Lee purchased a membership to Encyclopedia Titanica.
(Given that his Guinea Pigs cost £40 each to cremate, it seems that
Lee does need someone to oversee his finances.)
All of the above referenced information can be found on http://www.paullee.com/bandb/
His attacks continue. Buried deep in this page, it was discovered
that three other eddresses (again, mine included) were hot linked to a
personal eddress for a person with whom Paul Lee dislikes. I sent the
following email on February 13, 2010:
Good evening,
Although neither of you may know me, we share something in common --
the misuse of our email addresses on the personal web page of Paul
Lee. The address in question can be found at http://www.paullee.com/bandb/index.php#Trower
(you will have to run a search for your name -- this link takes you to
a rant dealing with me).
This has been an ongoing problem with Mr. Lee -- last November it was
discovered that he had similarly allowed twenty eddress to be
displayed in a manner that allows robots to harvest eddresses for sale
to spammers; this was dealt with by sending the following email to the
other nineteen names, with the result that this misuse of eddresses
stopped -- at least in this instance.
"Sorry to intrude on your day, but I've just been alerted to the fact
that my eddress, as well as that of nineteen others, is posted at the
bottom of the webpage found at http://www.paullee.com/ . At the very
bottom of the page on the left is a small string of characters, each
representing an eddress (they are listed in the same order that they
are on this email to you). This is a hidden trick used to subject the
eddress to spammers -- bots that roam each page glean these eddresses
and they are then sold to these same spam operators.
"The personal eddress of Paul Lee is pa...@xxxxxxx.com . As someone
with whom Paul Lee may have a grudge against, I thought that you may
want to take action against this use of your eddress in such a
manner."
Paul Lee has continued his personal vendetta against myself, and in
looking further into this man's rant page I've found that both of you
have been subjected to the same type of abuse that I have received.
I've filed a complaint against his hosting company (identified below)
and thought that you too might want to take steps to rid yourself of
the problems that Mr. Lee is causing each of us.
All the best,
Tim Trower
Springfield, Missouri, United States
WHOIS information for paullee.com :
[Querying whois.internic.net]
[Redirected to whois.tucows.com]
[Querying whois.tucows.com]
[whois.tucows.com]
Registrant:
Dr Paul Lee
1 Beacon Hill
Sadberge
Darlington, Co Durham DL1 3JS
UK
Domain name: PAULLEE.COM
Administrative Contact:
GET FREE DOMAINS FROM ----- www.uk2.net -----, ,
hostm...@uk2.net
One Canada Square
Canary Wharf
London, E14 5DY
GB
+044.2079871200
Technical Contact:
GET FREE DOMAINS FROM ----- www.uk2.net -----, ,
hostm...@uk2.net
One Canada Square
Canary Wharf
London, E14 5DY
GB
+044.2079871200
Registration Service Provider:
UK2.NET
http://uk2.net/
For support and FAQs please go to http://support.uk2.net/
Registrar of Record: TUCOWS, INC.
Record last updated on 11-May-2009.
Record expires on 19-May-2010.
Record created on 19-May-2000.
Registrar Domain Name Help Center:
http://domainhelp.tucows.com
Domain servers in listed order:
ULTRA102.UK2.NET
ULTRA101.UK2.NET
Domain status: ok
Again, my complaints resulted in these eddresses being stripped from
his blog, but I noticed a few days ago that mine was back again, hot
linked, and I have again complained to his hosting company. In that
legal action is promised, they have reacted quite fast each time this
has happened.
At this point, I’ve had enough of his sniping. Taking things that he
has written either on Facebook or his personal blog, here are emails
that I’ve sent, with date (and a note – Lee has attempted to block my
access to his blog, but anyone with a good proxy can see anything they
want):
February 17, 2010, subject line “You Can’t Hide”
16 February, 201010:47:45Subject: SchizophreniaYet again, another
televison show confuses schizophrenia with the controversial syndrome
of multiple personality disorder. Schizophrenia is, according to
Wikipedia, "hallucinations, delusions, and disorganized and unusual
thinking and speech." A group of us were told this during Mental
Health Week at York University in 1995 by a representative of MIND.
Why do people make this mistake. Simple - ignorance. Get it right,
readers.
March 9, 2010, subject line “See Me Rot” (referencing a website he
posted about that has a camera in the coffin of a dead person)
Whew! For a moment I was worried about you.
March 15, 2010, subject line “Missing Post on ET?” (referencing a post
he made which was deleted on ET)
No signature either? What is this world coming too?
March 22, Lee posted this on Facebook:
Paul Lee
I seem to be going through a hyperactive phase. Plus I have to stay up
late in case Toxic Tim Trower tries to access my website again. Bloody
cyber-stalker, waiting until I was at a low ebb and my wife was ill.
Yesterday at 8:07pm
To which I responded with a message with the subject line “Facebook
and paranoia”
I seem to be going through a hyperactive phase. Plus I have to stay up
late in case Toxic Tim Trower tries to access my website again. Bloody
cyber-stalker, waiting until I was at a low ebb and my wife was ill.
Yesterday at 8:07pm
Are you trying to off her as well as yourself?
He somewhat understandably blew up over that one, and I showed him
that I could still access his Facebook account by finding and sending
this message:
March 23, 2010, subject line “I thought you didn’t read my emails
anymore” (in reference to the repeated claims of his that he filters
and never sees my emails to him)
Gill 'Queenie' Devlin
WHAT!!!!That is disgraceful!!!It's easy to be tough when
typing.....he's a coward!!!It's obvious what kind of person he
is.....block him Paul.People like him are not worthy of any attention
from anyone!!xx
about an hour ago
Again on March 23, with the subject line “Delete away – a lot of my
friends sending stuff”
Paul Lee I'm feeling very low and upset. Trower has just sent me
another email saying "I thought you didn't read my email anymore" but
fortunately the ones last night and just now got through the gmail
filter I set up. He's quoted a message that was posted to me, so he's
obviously till reading my posts or someone is sending them to him.
The photo of me he posted on his blog (and captioned rather rudely) he
claims he received anonymously from someone claiming they couldn’t
stand me anymore. It is one that I personally sent Lee over two years
ago – the fact that I am holding a birthday cake with a model Titanic
on it made for the perfect subject matter! Just another Paul Lee lie.
Upshot of all of this? Legal action is underway via the British
courts. Since I save everything – emails, page captures and all, his
libelous comments will be easy to expose.
And believe it or not, he continues to use my review to sell his book!
Tim Trower
In all kindness, you need professional help.
Regards,
Tim
Tim Trower
You will want to look at the link to the review on Andy Clarkson's
excellent website, Titanic-Titanic.com inasmuch as I have made a
slight edit at the end of the review.
Regards,
Tim Trower
http://www.titanic-titanic.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=16&t=4528
Tim Trower
Tim Trower
Nothing official about it. I speak for myself. The same note is also
on the review posted on the THS message board.
Regards,
Tim
sdavmor
I am really sorry to see the two of you lobbing grenades like this.
But that's between the pair of you. And for better or worse you are
perversely managing to generate publicity for Dr. Lee's book. All
exposure is good exposure, I guess, even if the longer the public
sniping goes on the more the pair of you look like prize twerps.
I read the sample pages and was very impressed by what was there.
I have asked my wife to put it on the list of presents for me this
year. Hopefully sooner rather than later in the year (i.e. one of
those silly days like "father's day" or "dad got a 50 for his cricket
club day") rather than when I turn 52. Regardless, it seems to be a
piece of high-grade work, guaranteed to stir the pot where the issue
of Capt. Lord & the Californian is concerned, and I want it for my
Titanic library.
--
Cheers, SDM -- a 21st Century Schizoid Man
Systems Theory project website: http://systemstheory.net
find us on MySpace, GarageBand, Reverb Nation, Last FM, CDBaby
free MP3s of Systems Theory, Mike Dickson & Greg Amov music at
http://mikedickson.org.uk
Tim Trower
gin up sales of Paul's book. Do you honestly think I would have
allowed those posts to remain intact, let alone add that small edit,
if I intended to hurt his book sales? For that matter, both message
boards allow me to edit or delete content, and if I were wanting to
hurt sales, would I want to give him publicity of any sort? No, I'd
have deleted this review wherever posted. (This review was also
posted on the Ship's Nostalgia message board last year when I joined,
long after this dust-up began.)
I've said it in print numerous times -- "The Indifferent Stranger" is
an excellent book, and one that many, myself included, consider the
best of the "Californian" books yet written.
That fact will not and cannot change.
So, once again and regrettably without formatting, here is my review
of Paul Lee's eBook, now available in soft cover from the author
(details contained in the review).
The Indifferent Stranger
Dr. Paul Lee
Self published eBook, 2008
329 pages, illustrated, £15
http://www.paullee.com:80/book_details.php
One of the rules of etiquette is that a guest to your home does not
speak of religion or politics. Likewise, at some gatherings of Titanic
historians, it is best not to speak of one of the most contentious
topics relating to the tragedy – that of the guilt or innocence of
Captain Stanley Lord and his ship, the Leyland liner Californian.
Hundreds of thousands of words have been written about this
controversy, and frankly, most books and articles are heavily slanted
either pro or con, often with information excluded from or reworded
from the historic narrative to support the position of whatever side
the author finds himself on. Thus, it is troubling to see in one
narrative how Leslie Harrison left out mention of rockets fired by the
Carpathia at 3:15 a.m. and seen by the Californian at the same time
since this sighting doesn’t support his point of view. Equally
perturbing is the way that Leslie Reade omitted part of Fifth Officer
Lowe’s testimony concerning lights on the mystery ship that seemed to
indicate to Lowe that the ship was steaming away.
The basic facts – that the officers and some of the crew of the
Californian saw rockets being fired to the south and that numerous
passengers and crew of the Titanic saw the lights of a ship to the
north are without doubt. But from this point on, there are widely
divergent viewpoints of what happened and what was seen, and since
1912, writers on both sides of the question have attempted to sway the
undecided to their respective view.
There is a wealth of information available in the form of testimony
given to both the American and British inquires as well as letters,
logbooks, wireless records, interviews and memoirs. A careful shifting
of all available evidence, omitting none, is what has been needed
since the first accusations were hurled at Captain Lord.
The Indifferent Stranger is a newly published eBook by Dr. Paul Lee, a
frequent contributor to the Commutator. His look at this controversial
subject is thorough, exhaustive and seemingly complete. Far from
cherry picking evidence to support his conclusions, Dr. Lee has
instead presented entire passages of testimony in order for the reader
to draw his or her own conclusions. This approach can make certain
sections of the book drag just a bit; however, this approach ensures
all relevant information is provided.
With the purchase of this eBook, the purchaser sent a PDF to open and
read on his or her computer, or can instead order a copy on a CD. It
can then also be loaded onto a PDA or, as I did, print out a copy onto
8 ½” x 11” paper and put into a three-ring binder.
The entire story of the Californian incident is retold in a
chronological manner. Using testimony and related material drawn from
the two main inquiries, the book delves into the beginnings of the
controversy surrounding the indifferent stranger that was supposedly
seen by both the Titanic and Californian. When it is established by
the writer that in spite of Captain Lord’s protestations, his ship was
indeed the mystery ship that sat at rest a short distance away, Dr.
Lee is very careful to present both sides of every argument – even if
the information used runs counter to the Lee’s eventual conclusions.
The author spends much time going through not only inquiry notes, but
contemporary newspaper accounts, letters and reported conversations as
well. Step by step, and with great detail, each puzzle piece is
carefully examined, both sides of the issue looked at and discussed,
and that issue objectively examined, helping the reader decide what
did happen the night of April 14-15.
Sorting through the maze of conflicting stories takes patience, time
and much effort. Numerous portions of the 1912 inquiries are presented
in full. Although reading these excerpts can be tedious, no one can
accuse Dr. Lee of leaving out items which do not fit the case he
presents throughout the book. The reader is exhorted to read through
all of the transcripts “…for contained within is not only verification
of the extracts presented in this book, but also priceless snippets of
information…”
Numerous charts and illustrations help the reader understand what was
seen, and from what height above the water ship’s lights and the glare
of socket signals could be seen. For instance, on pages 314-316 is a
series of original illustrations showing what the lights of the
Californian must have looked like to Fourth Officer Boxhall. These
lights would have shifted throughout the night in the current and
displayed what first looked like two masthead lights and a green light
changing to what later appeared to be just a single masthead light as
the Titanic sank deeper into the water. Touches such as these add
great detail to the book.
Some of the conclusions in Dr. Lee’s eBook will upset people – but he
has taken great care to clearly show from the actual and unedited
words of the principals exactly what must have happened.
Although there are a few small formatting issues with the eBook, and
while I personally dislike the use of Stanley Morrison’s Times New
Roman as the type face employed throughout, it is the text of the book
and the accompanying illustrations that make this book well worth the
purchase. The lack of an index is not a concern since the electronic
version of the book is easily searched, as the author intended.
The Indifferent Stranger is not available through the THS but may be
ordered from Paul Lee at http://www.paullee.com:80/book_details.php
The book will not be the final word on this contentious subject, but
barring new discoveries, it may well stand as the definitive argument
for one side of the Californian question.
This review copyright Timothy J. Trower, 2008. It cannot be used in
any form without prior written permission of the author.
Paul Goodwin
>
> I am really sorry to see the two of you lobbing grenades like this.
> But that's between the pair of you. And for better or worse you are
> perversely managing to generate publicity for Dr. Lee's book.
I'd say worse. Lee proclaims himself an "author" yet I don't think I've
ever seen so many typos, questionable grammar and wordsrunningtogether
than on what he calls his 'blog'. If this is indicative of his writing
style & talents I won't be spending my hard-earned cash on any of his
vanity books any time soon.
All
> exposure is good exposure, I guess, even if the longer the public
> sniping goes on the more the pair of you look like prize twerps.
More like nutjobs.
--
Paul
Tim Trower
review being posted on ET, T-T and the THSMB are also rather stale, if
you want to look at it that way.) The review was deleted from Ship's
Nostalgia due to live links in the article; when I pointed out that
this was not self-promotion, the moderators edited the links and
reposted the review.
Tim Trower
Samuel Cunard
Since - it seems that I am now involved in this little war of words
between Dr. Paul Lee and Tim Trowler I will add my comments:
This kind of war of egos has been going on for over twenty-five years
now this isn't the first battle that I have seen.
As I have stated before in my opinion this is what just drives people
away from Titanic Historical Societies and forums. For this reason I
have left along with many others.
I was one of the original eight founders of the original Titanic
Prodigy group stated by Phil Haywood (NOT HIND) way back in 1992. As
this group grew over the years and the board leadership and servers
changed as needed. As result of this little group other various
groups were formed such as the one I am writing on now.
(Please note: Check the FAQ in the Administration section on ET and
see who wrote it as is the original one from PHIL HAYWOOD'S NEWSGROUP
- with updates)
I tend to stay off the newsgroups and forums as in the last eighteen
(18) years I have seen it all and heard it all, and am just plainly
sick of it all! Any serious Titanic /Ocean liner fan that has been
around for any amount of time will know the “TRUE” history of the
various Titanic Societies and forums. Any serious Titanic/Ocean
Liner person who was on-line back in 1992-1996 will know of the
personnel attacks and flame wars that I had to put up with in support
of George Tulloch and RMS Titanic, Titanic International, etc. etc.
As result of this I was banned from many groups and lost several
friends.
The problem is all the serious Titanic / Ocean Liner people that were
around prior to the "DISCOVERY OF THE TITANIC" in 1985 - (Paul give
me some credit I am being politically correct) - Have gotten so feed
up with the all the crap over the years so they have left the
societies/forums – (Many of these people are now on Facebook)
So now you have a lot of new people whom got interested as result of
the 1997 Titanic movie and were infants in 1985 and just are not aware
of the History from 1913 - 1997 so to say and how bad it is now being
distorted.
So that being stated I will state that I was member of the Titanic
Historical Society from 1976 - 1988 as a scholar under a gift
membership. I left the society for a few years after college and came
back in 1991 or 1992 and was there until I was told to leave the
society etc!
Because of my views and opinions on the salvage issue and my
association with George Tulloch and RMS Titanic, Inc I received
various letters from the Titanic Historical Society about my views
telling me to leave. Many friends of mine also were sent copies of
these letters and told if you choice to be friends with him we will
throw you out also.
Tim: This is a series of questions / points for you: (Paul’s follow
below)
1.) You can't deny that the Titanic Historical Society has thrown out
barred and harassed various members that don't agree with there views
and opinions? - (I have three inches of letters, which state so –
You/THS don't think people haven’t saved them for years - As they are
HYSTERICAL.)
2.) As you stated above in your various posts relating to Mr. Lee's
book on the Titanic - Many people don't care about this issue
anymore. After Eric Padden / Bill Bilitzner and the likes of Eric
Sirgeright-Paine (in the a**) going at it in flame wars and cyber
attack's for over five years - Many are now just plain sick of the
subject and follow my view as stated bellow:
Eight white fired / eight white rockets seen / eight white rockets
reported / Lord should have investigated / If he did the Titanic would
still have sunk but he might have beaten the Carpathia there. - End
of story.
Many others and I just don't care what other ships were out there or
the various stories in defense of Lord - End of Story,
3.) Wasn’t Edward Stephen Kamuda just a co-founder of the Titanic
Historical Society along with various others?
4.) Wasn't the Titanic Historical Society formally T.E.A. formed out
of friendship stated when Joseph A. Carvalho meet your good friend
Robert Gibbons in a Boston / Cambridge bookshop long before 1963?
5.) Didn’t Edward S. Kamuda contact Joseph A. Carvalho as result of an
picture of Joseph Carvalho's Titanic Model in Popular Mechanic's for
which he won a Golden Hammer Award? - (April 1962 issue)
6.) Wasn’t the first meeting held at Edward Kamuda's home simply
because it was a convenient location between Boston, Hartford and New
York from which the original co-founder were from?
7.) Didn’t John P. Eaton send a check for $50.00 to start the
treasury, wasn’t a tape played at this meeting?
If anyone cares to dispute the above facts as the original history of
the Titanic Historical Society let me know and I will forward THS
documents and Commutators that state this as fact all of which date
prior to 1990!
8.) Now as for the current history of the Titanic Historical Society
isn't what is told to various people now different? -- as in words I
have heard numerous times - "THE FACTS AND HISTORY MIGHT CONFUSE AND
UPSET OUR NEW MEMBERS"?
9.) Why has the Titanic Historical Society choice to claim publicly
that various original co-founder's are dead or crazy? (Would you
like to see this on official THS Letterhead and signed by a THS
trustee?)
10.) As for my comments on Mr. Lee's web-site asking questions to the
Titanic Historical Society these were written back in 1995 and still
remain un-answered after fifteen years why?
11.) Relating, to the prior question have you ever seen a copy of the
original Constitution of the Titanic Historical Society -
Incorporating it as a non-profit - Dated September 6, 1974? - As most
of the questions are based on this document and others.
12.) Did you not unfreind me once you found out that I joined a
Facebook group called "I Hate the Titanic Historical Society” and Dr.
Paul Lee posted a comment with a link to his web-site showing my
fifteen year old questions to THS? At of which you then threatened
him with legal action over.
13.) WHAT THE HELL does Paul Lee's financial situation / health /
mental state / the health of his wife or pets have anything to do with
thus issue? - I just makes anyone talking ill of these issue’s look
like a big a**.
14.) DO YOU NOT ADMIT BLATENTLY ABOVE to cyber stocking? -- Paul Lee
by checking on his web-site and facebook page to see what he is
writting about the Titanic Historial Society - and what people are
writting about you and your comments as you posted them above. (DO YOU
ENJOY THIS? As you seem to keep re-hashing this issue)
15.) Didn't a friend of yours e-mail me and un-friend me over my
private comments on Paul Lee's Facebook page - were I used Paul's
nickname for you. (I could go further on this subject but I won't as
it would get to humors as both you and Paul know what this individual
wants and what he will do to get it.) - LOL
14.) Have I ever met you / or even had contact with you prior to us
meeting on Facebook?
Now in conclusion to this section, I could care less which side you
are on and if you are a member / spokesman of the Titanic Historical
Society or any other society or forums.
But just don't think that the Titanic Historical Society or any other
in my opinion is as pure as the driven snow. - I have hundreds of
letters to prove otherwise would you like to read some? - Or did you
get enough of them on the "I Hate the Titanic Historical Societies
Facebook page". As if you didn't already know most of what was
posted there were "Love Letter's / Nasty Grams from THS to various ex-
members. - As you stated above you used round about ways to get in -
Would you like to see my letters openly?
YOU WILL FIND THAT THE TRUTH IS SHOCKING ISN''T IT! - IF YOU DIDN'T
KNOW THIS ALREADY YOU ARE NOT THAT CLOSE TO THS AND ITS OFFICER’S
The many question is if you screw with people for years you don't
think it will come back to bite you in the A**. – Fifteen / twenty/
thirty years later.
Now for a series of questions for Dr. Paul Lee:
1.) Paul have we known each other since around 1993 when we were both
on the old newsgroup?
2.) Did you not contact about my comments on the possible 1977
Discovery of the Titanic by the British?
3.) Paul, is it not a know fact publicly in the Titanic / Ocean Liner
Societies that you and your wife have both had serious health and
financial issue’s. Anyone that knows you and is a friend or associate
is aware of this fact and is wishing you good health and will.
3.) Paul, is it true that you book doesn't follow the stated Titanic
Historical Societies view on the Lord/Californian events?
4.) Based on this fact did you expect to them to endorse the book?
5.) Now Paul, even I am smart enough to know that you didn't expect to
make a fortune of the sale of your Titanic Book - this is given the
fact that I have several limited edition Titanic books which only have
five hundred or so copies printed that you can still find available
for purchase after twenty plus years.
6.) Relating to the comments by Mr. Trowler on your website and the
spamming issues. Is it not true that this was a list of individuals
that you had blocked from accessing your site as you wished them not
to see your comments? 1.) This, would be members of the Titanic
Community you didn’t want to associate with any longer. 2.) Former
employers and position’s applied for. 3.) Others you dislike 4.) Your
wife as various comments might upset her.
7.) Is it not standard practice to block people you dislike from your
Facebook Page and any personnel web-pages - As they might post or see
items you wish them not to. And once they are block you would expect
them to stay that way. - Hell, I do this and assume that Mr. Trowler
does the same.
8.) Paul, why are you giving satisfaction to a stated cyber stocker! –
From my past experience if is only one or two comments – delete them
and ignore them. But the impression I am getting is this is more
then one or two. Paul/Tim Correct me if I am wrong.
So to sum this all up HEY YOU TWO LEAVE EACH OTHER ALONE and go on
your merry ways - And agree to agree you don’t like each other – end
of story!
Many others and I are getting sick of it. And I am sick of being used
to add to this on-going feud between you two.
No further comments from me – provided none are directed at me. I
will however, answer questions related to Titanic Historical Society
History or the various letters as stated above.
Samuel Cunard
The orginal copy of the Marconigraqm stating the original history of
the Titanic Historical Society and Harrison article can be found in
The Titanic Commutator - Volume 16 - Number 4 4th Quarter, February,
1993 - April 1993. Page 26.
Now for some ha ha's - If you have this Commutator please look at
page 62 the photo of Lynch and Marschall on lower left -- Who is in
the background?
Now flip to page 64 and look at the bottom right - You will find Kenny
Olsen, Tarn Stephanos, Ken Marschell, Charles Chaffe and note the hand
on the counter at the right who was cropped out of this photo?
This was a discussion with Ken Marschall about the images of the
Titanic in Southampton - related to the Images taken from the Beacon
Grange an the fact that there are two differenct images of the
reporter and the lifeboat one which Ken was aware of and one which was
unpublished at the time that I had a copy of from the collection of a
noted collector associated with RMS Titanic, Inc. The book is most
likely open to page 34 and the New York Incident and the chart showing
the location of the Beacon Grange.
There was also a dicussion of what images came from the THS / Joseph
A. Carvalho Collection.
John Smith
documentary had Mr.Edward Kamuda saying that it was believed that the
Samson was the miscreant at large during the Titanic's sinking. But we
know this had been debunked by Walter Lord in 1986. I wonder why
Mr.Kamuda decided to tell this woefully inaccurate story? I see that
Walter Leslie Stringer Harrison was also featured in that A&E thing,
and it doesn't pay to say things which will annoy your messiah.
John Smith
Forge and Branson are owned and run by John Joslyn who was originally
in charge of Titanic Ventures,Inc the company that started all the
savalge on the Titanic in 1987 prior to RMS Titanic, Inc.
I have heard that Josyln is now a major player in Premier Productions
which the company RMS Titanic became. It all became nasty about 5
years ago when the U.S. Securities & Exchange Commission started
throwing its weight around, and G Michael Harris, also involved in the
1987 recovery trip, and, I think Arnie Geller, were also involved. You
can find the full litigation on the web. Its all ironic
and a bit despicable that the Kamudas are nosying up to the new
Titanic exhibitions when their owner was partly responsible for the
commencement of salvage operations. No honor amongst thieves , eh, but
where theres an opportunity to make money and get a bit of publicity,
well, whos complaining.
As for Robert Gibbons, the disgraced THS president, he was at the
Pigeon Forge opening, I wonder how he got on with the Kamudas. Its
also ironic as, behind his back, Timothy Trower can't stand him, but
Gibbons calls him a good friend!!!!!
John
John Smith
The Kamudas et al are hypocites as Pigeon Forge and Branson are owned
and run by John Joslyn who was originally in charge of Titanic
in 1987 prior to RMS Titanic, Inc. No honour amonst thieves I suppose
when there is chance to make a bit of money and get some publicity.
I believe Josyln is, or was now a major player in Premier Productions
which the company RMS Titanic, Inc. became. It all became nasty about
5 years ago when the U.S. Securities & Exchange Commission got
involved in some horrible litigation which you can find on the web. It
involved Joslyn, G Michael Harris (another salvage co-founder) and
Arnie Geller I think. Its a bit despicable of the Kamudas to rub
shoulders with someone who started the salvage operation, and portray
Tulloch etc. as the devil incarnate.
Still, there is money involved.
I wonder how Phil Gowan, Tim Trower and Robert Gibbons liked the
opening of Pigeon Forge? Its a bit of an odd coupling, as although
Gibbons calls Tim his good friend, behind his back. Trower can't stand
the disgraced ex-THS Presidente Gibbons!!!!!!
John
Tim Trower
large number of people. Why is this, Mr. Lee?
08 April, 2010
23:05:51
Subject: What price friendship?
It looks like my cyber stalker has "got the message" after he
spectacularly exposed himself by detailing most of his messages on the
Titanic newsgroup, showing how he would gloat at being able to see
this blog and read my Facebook page even though we weren't friends. To
prevent him from seeing my FB profile, I had to unfriend a lot of
mutual acquaintances. Offering voluminous apologies I then unfriended
about 8 or so people, saying that the cyber stalker had asked,
disgustingly, if I was planning to "off" [ie kill] my wife before
myself, and that my wife was in hospital, and that I was rescinding
the friendship to prevent the stalker from seeing my profile via their
walls (I know now of a better way to block people). Stupidly, I
expected my friends to come forth and offer support and denounce the
behaviour of the stalker. Only two did. The rest were people I had
thought were my friends and yet they have obviously decided to side
with the stalker and his query to "off" my wife. I have not heard from
them since. The well being of myself and my beloved apparently means
nothing to them.
They should be thoroughly ashamed of themselves.
Tim Trower
give anyone $10,000 to prove it. Or are you going to man up and admit
that you were lying?
http://www.titanichistoricalsociety.net/forum/viewtopic.php?f=25&t=545&p=3119#p3119
Tim Trower
you!
John Smith
membership list to, when he
was expelled. Amazing how all these iniquities connect!
Trevor, do you know anything of the story that Karen Kamuda had an
affair with Paul Louden-Brown
which also resulted in him being kicked out of the THS? Or that the
THS overcharge people heavily
on postage for items bought for them (this happened to me, and I was
wondering if it happened to other people?)
John
Tim Trower
All of you who referenced Bob Gibbons as being at Pigeon Forge lied.
This I can prove beyond doubt with multiple eyewitness accounts of who
actually was there -- from people who know Bob Gibbons personally.
This, of course, means that nothing else you say can be taken as the
truth. The burden of truth is now on you to prove what you say in
every case, with every scurrilous allegation.
Your credibility is worthless, as are your words.
Paul Goodwin
*munching popcorn*
This is all pretty funny stuff, it would appear that the various Titanic
organizations are populated by nutjobs & morons. That goes for a few
self-styled "authors" as well. I've never belonged to any official
organization, my lifelong interest in Titanic & ocean liners has been a
solitary pursuit, anything I need to know can be accessed via the
historical records, books, and now, the internet.
After reading these bizarre threads/attack posts that have absolutely
nothing whatsoever to do with Titanic, I see my non-involvement with any
organizations was the right path to take.
Have at it.
--
Paul
Samuel Cunard
I agree with your statements above.
And thought I wouldn't comment again -- But these comments are just
plain stupid and to much history needs to be addressed - I as you
stated I wonder who's credibility is in question?
As for the Mr. Lee's Blog and Facebook page being blocked to Mr.
Trower - I think by the above comments in this tread anyone in their
"right" mind with common since can see why. (And we all know a lot of
people don't seem to have it)
And I find it quite interesting that the individual who is waiting for
a reply on day three - Again shows himself as a cyber stocker and
choice's not to reply to any of the questions asked of him above from
almost a month ago!
He choices only to state that Bob Gibbon's was not at Pigeon Forge and
call people who said he was a liar.
Big deal how about some comments on the other issues at hand?
I think the point that was being made was Mr. Gibbons was supposed to
be at the opening of Pigeon Forge and bragged about this fact to
several people and many of these people know of his past association
with THS et. al. and that he wants badly to be associated with them
and the Branson Museum again.
Mr. Gibbon's bragged to many people and myself that he was going to
Pigeon Forge.
So he was not there big deal - Who cares.
How about a comment on the other questions about THS History and your
cyber stocking which you again point out.
How about a comment on the fact that THS and the Kamuda's are now in
bed with John Joslyn who was an original partner in Titanic Ventures,
which did the 1987 Salvage operation.
They can condemn the salvage for twenty years and bar and exspell
people from the society over their association with the salvagers.
But now there is a buck to be made you can form a partnership with
them and rave about their wonderful new museums.
Paul Goodwin: This stuff makes many people say the hell with the
societies as it is a bunch of crazy people with big ego's who don't
care about anyone's opinion but there own and their own little
personnel agenda's.
As for the affair issue between Paul-Loudon-Brown and Karen Kamuda
this seems to be quite common knowledge - And I know several people
who "PERSONNALLY" witnessed a fistfight between Ed and Paul over this
in a taxicab in Southampton several years ago during a BTS convention
and another incident during a "private dinner" were Ed got mad over
this issue. As for additional details I don't know I wasn't there! I
know there were some other more serious allegations related to Mr.
Louden-Brown and his association with THS but since I an not a member
I choice not to comment further.
Trevor: Yes, memory lane - Many of these people see to wish that many
people didn’t have long memories.
Yes - The THS salvage stance has been know for years and yes I have a
copy of the Commentator were Ed talks about raising a steel plate and
selling coins to cover the cost of the expedition as many people would
want a part of the ship so to say. In my opinion wasn't this done by
RMS Titanic, Inc when they sold the pieces of Coal, which was
condemned by THS? And as you stated THS has no problem selling carpet,
wood, gantry, floor tiles etc.
As for Ballard, Yes he was in favor of Salvage - And stated so in
sworn testimony before the United States Congress. - His opinion
changed on this issue when Mr. Joslyn, Ralph White et. Al formed
Titanic Ventures and a partnership with IFREMER in 1987 (which Ballard
had pissed off royally with the early release of photographs against
the partnership arrangement in 1985.)
Also many people just plain forget that Dr. Ballard was a US Navy
Officer on a US Navy Operation - The US Navy isn't going to salvage
the Titanic - A private venture without him of THS Did! - However,
in my opinion the only person who has gotten rich of the Titanic is
Dr. Ballard how many "GHOST WRITTEN" books and royalties from them.
How many private US citizen's get to drive around in a Nuclear
Submarine on "TAXPAYER DOLLARS?"
As for Ballard he is big on the shoes and human remains on the Titanic
and it is a gravesite you are disrespecting the dead. And you
shouldn't salvage anything from any ship just look. How about him
sitting in his living room in the Battle of the Titanic documentary in
front of two salvaged Greek amphora's or the pictures of a human skull
and bones on the Empress of Ireland in his book Lost Liners.
It is interesting that the Titanic Historical Society can have
salvaged artifacts from the wrecks of the Empress of Ireland /Andrea
Doria / Republic / Lusitania on display and have no problem with this
- Hum didn't people die on these ships?
As for the THS Plague (the first of many lies) first it was Ralph
White and John Joslyn of Titanic Ventures that they accused of
stealing it. (Now they are all lovely dovey again because there is a
buck to be made) Then they accused RMS Titanic, Inc of removing it
and placing it in a toilet According to RMS Titanic, Inc given were
and how the original was placed and the high current in the area which
can be proved by the lack of rust and silt it most likely slipped of
the bollard and fell off the stern. But they had pictures to prove it
along with pictures of RMS Titanic, Inc ripping the bell of the mast
and knocking the crows nest off. I am still waiting after almost 25
years to see this video and pictures! The Bell and the Crowsnest
issue was addressed in great detail by Matthew Tulloch and video and
photo's of the recovery were produced.
As for the Issues with Charles Haas and John Eaton the story I know is
certain members of THS were upset that Mr. Haas and Eaton used items
from the THS archives for personnel profit thought the sale of their
book Triumph and Tragedy. Along with a few other issue's mainly their
position on Salvage. But let us look at the fact that after Mr.
Eaton and Haas left THS along come Mr. Lynch and Marschall who are
given free rain of the THS Archives for their book "An Illustrated
History” as it takes and anti-salvage stance and includes some of the
above stated lies.
The question has also been raised why weren't Mr. Marschall and Lynch
expelled like others for their association with RMS Titanic Inc on the
1998 Expedition?
Trevor: I agree with your comments on the hull cutting issue as I
personally spoke with George Tulloch about this issue. I know his
position on it as for Mr. Haas I never spoke to him about it. As far
as I know the first item taken off the ship was the masthead light
(which was not ripped off as the video shows but this was done by
Titanic Ventures) the next items taken of the ship were in 1998 when
items were taken from the wireless room during an attempt to recover
the wireless.
THS and Ballard claimed a block and tackle were taken this is the most
humorous thing I very heard. Watch the NG Ballard Video from 1986 "WE
HIT SOMETHING WE HIT SOMETHING” images of rust falling - I wonder what
they might have hit and knocked off.
As for Charles Ira Sacks - I won't go there as he owes me and several
of my friends money for society merchandise we never received - When
confronted he states produce the cancelled check - Well many of us
have kept them for over 25 years know and produce them. - No further
comment about numerous other Charles Ira Sacks E-bay transactions!
As for Eric Seright Payne I along with many others had our battles
with him long before many of the current people in the Titanic
Societies even became interested because of the Cameron Film. Hell
most of these people were just babies then.
But In conclusion I always find it interesting how these people can
find some little issue like Robert Gibbons wasn't at Pigeon Forge and
not deal with the real issues. So someone claimed Bob Gibbons was at
Pigeon Forge and he wasn't that is a lie well how about answering some
of the truths addressed above.
Tim Trower
You took words and mangled them, coming up with and spreading the
conclusion that Bob Gibbons was at the Pigeon Forge opening. You've
done this with numerous other topics, including the screed you've just
posted. Ergo, nothing that you write can be trusted, and the burden
of proof is on you.
Do something constructive with your life.
Samuel Cunard
wrote:
>>Steve,
Please show me were I ever stated that Robert Gibbons was at the
Openning of Pigeon Forge? - I have made only three posts here - The
original to you and Paul relating to your ongoing battle - A response
comment on THS History (and anyone can check the Commutator in
question and see the facts) and this last one in response to other
history pointed out by The Mysterious Mr Rocco and John Smith.(The
Ballard items are very easy to check also)
I never stated period that Robert Gibbons was at Pigeon Forge - this
to the best of my knowledge was discussed by The Mysterious Mr. Rocco
(Trever) and John Smith neither of these people are myself.
> Do something constructive with your life.
Trust me I will as I don't care for this stuff and don't have time for
it.
As I stated prior no further comments from me if none are directed at
me.
Please prove me wrong on the original THS History in my first post if
I am wrong on any of this I will openly admit it and issue an
appology.
Vance Brand
As you will know Mr.Trower was a member of the Encyclopedia Titanic
board until he was excluded
because of negative comments made about Titanic: The Ship Magnificent.
Everyone else loves the books except for Mr.Trower. Do you know if
Mrs.Kamuda instructed him to write a negative review?
I ask because Mr.Trower, to mine and everyone else's disgust, posted a
question on the Titanic Modelling site about a week ago. The Modelling
group, of which I am a member, is also the residence of the authors of
the Ship Magnificent books. People were saying in private how they
were disgusted and "*ucking increduolous" that he would have the cheek
to show his face on the board and many will no longer speak to him.
Ths isnt the only trouble he has caused, like accusing Aldridges
Auction House of pedling fake goods (the crows nest telephone key),
and he also had unjustified doubts about a letter from Archie Jewell
last year. It seems the guy just wants to cause trouble and has no
cinscience. He can't see what harm he has done, or is doing and thinks
he can still be people friends, like posting on the TModelling group.
By the way, here is Mr.Trower's email to Mr.Phil Hind of Encyclopeia
Titanic afer he was banned. He doesn't seem to realise that what he
did was wrong. We had a good chuckel when this email was passed
around!
Yours
Vance
Mr. Hind,
For starters, it is childishly simple to gain access to the ET message
board, your feeble attempts notwithstanding. Your ignorance and
foolishness is a prime example why many choose not to frequent, post
or even visit ET.
So, inasmuch as you have chosen to attempt to block the free flow of
ideas and knowledge, I can only assume that you are in bed with the
authors of TTSM, and that they have been applying pressure to you to
have my access to the board blocked. This, of course, is very similar
to what happened with the David Blair key, when Aldridge applied the
same type of pressure to keep my posts down about the obvious fake
being sold in the name of the key tag.
In short, you have no recourse but to snip and bully others. Your
hatred for Americans is well known -- and I suppose that it was people
like you that spurred the American colonies to revolt in 1776.
Frankly, I've found nearly all English citizens that I know a joy to
work with, but I guess that there are always exceptions. (Thanks for
shattering my illusions.)
The fact that you posted what you did on the ET message board means
that you acted out of desperation in an attempt to keep your
paymasters at TTSM happy. You have sold out.
Your choice.
Timothy J. Trower
Tim Trower
Vance Brand
you were back then!
(Edit)
I've also had a look at the THS message board, you know, the place
where few go <grin>
and the afore mentioned Mr.Gibbons was keen on licking your butthole
by saying that you
had found some great ocean liner material on pathe news. What he
didn't acknolwedge is that if it
wasn't for the TRMA lot finding the pathe archives, you wouldn't know
about. Grandstanding, Mr.Trower?
John Smith
Talking of Branson, MI, many Titanic scholars will not attend for its
disrespect to the memory of the
disaster. For one thing, how can a Titanic museum have the audacity to
host an ICE carving contest
near the bow of the museum/ship? That would be like the Auschwitz
memorial having a "best dressed Hitler"
fancy dress theme day.
John Smith
-----
basically the whole story is there in short. i was involved in the
1996 and 1998 recovery expeditions. back then, there was very little
acceptance of tulloch & co, so i wrote in 1996 an article why i am
involved. in it i mentioned also how illogical the arguments of the
critics are, like the ths being proud of owning coal recovered from
the britannic but titanic coal is such a bad thing, and how they
destroy some pieces in the ths collection just to have some give aways
for their supporters (pulling off pieces of the carpet, lifejacket etc
that "fell off". i just pointed out a few points.
then i was kicked out without a reason being given (which is to my
knowledge illegal in a non-profit organisation). all i received were
letters by karen (several people confirmed me that the wording is
definitely from karen, including typical mistakes that i would not
spot, being a native german speaker), sent under an alias.
in order to receive my money back i was ordered to send money for the
postage, which i did not send. so they keep my money since 1997. in
fact paul lowden-brown keeps the money, he "took over" the case as
european representative.
by coincident i was a few years later in london at the science museum
exhibition when i noted a sign about a public discussion about the
artifacts that very afternoon by experts. of course i was curious to
learn who these experts were - and one of them was of course plb...
he started to talk how the whole ths agree that things should be left
at the wreck site etc... i tried to keep my mouth shut, but after a
few lies i could not resist. i confronted him with the only survey
that ths did in this matter in 1986, that showed 50% like to see
artifacts, and that their president wanted to raise a piece of steel
to melt commerative coins etc, all things that the commutator printed
a while ago. but the society, which against law never has a member
meeting and never present their figures kicks out now people that do
not share the trustees view. PLB tried to make me like a little fool
by saying this is all a lie, and that ths never kicked someone out.
this was of course to much, and i accused him of being involved in
kicking me out, and that he even has stolen my money a few years
back...
after the discussion he came to me, almost hitting me with his stick,
how dare could i accuse him about all this. he then admitted, that he
had "heard" my name before, and will investigate what my case is. he
promised that all must have been a mistake and he will contact me. he
never did.
all the above can be proved by witnesses and with letters etc. this is
just my story, and there are many more of others.
since you had troubles with the shop, well, this is such a sad chapter
as well. over the years i lost hundreds of dollars by ordering stuff,
being overcharged with postage. it all goes into their pockets. i
remember a case when i was charged 120 dollars for postage (they rip
off people out of the usa) and when the item arrived only some 25
dollars were on the parcel. i asked if the rest is credited on my
account, a question that was ignored and with the next order it began
again at zero...
so since more that 12 years they gave me all the rights to call them
liars and thiefs, because they are and i can prove easy :-)
John Smith
<Trevor.Rommel...@uk2.net> wrote:
> By the way, it was great to meet Joseph Carvalho at last weekend's TI
> meeting. He is the real driving force
> behind the founding of the THS, not tea-boy Kamuda.
Good to see you back, Trevor. For all its faults, TIS has nurtured
bonds with other groups;
totally disimilar to the THS who regard themselves, like Chesney
Hawkes, to be "The One
And Only."
John Smith
to keep quiet about. As you know, The TIS have a magazine called
"Voyager." This was mercilessly lampooned by the THS in a mail-out to
members and renamed "Voyeur" and the names of people were changed
quite scurrilously. "Charles Haas" became "Haas Cartwright" for
instance, and it mocked and ridiculed those not in THS circles. Quite
childish really.
Gerald S.
yesterday and he sent me a link to this page. I am sorry to hear about
the gulf between the two people who started this war, but I am
concerned about one thing. Mr. Trower's messages were sent from a THS
email address without any language saying "these are my views, and not
the THSs."
Does this mean that Mr.Trower is speaking for the Titanic Society in
wishing ill upon his enemy's wife? This could lead
the THS into a legal blitz.
Rgrds
Gez.
Tim Trower
You sent the following to the main THS email account today. I take
great pleasure in answering it.
"For the attention of Karen and Edward Kamuda, Yesterday I received an
email from a fellow THS member with the following link attached
http://groups.google.com/group/alt.history.ocean-liners.titanic/browse_thread/thread/8178c8b792deb304#
regardless of the arguments between Messrs Trower and Lee, I am
disturbed that the Titanic Historical Society should accept someone
into its ranks who asks if another man is going to kill his wife
knowing that his wife is very ill. These emails were sent from a THS
address without any form of indemnity or disclaimer saying that the
views in the email were his own opinion. Do we therefore assume that
the emails sent regarding this man's wife were official emails
upholding policies of the THS? Regards, Jim"
The email referred to is reprinted below:
"In confidence,
Dear Fellow THS member,
I am sure that you, like me, am somewhat concerned about the standards
of the Titanic Historical
Society, with rumours and innuendo emerging. Some of us have asked,
and some have campaigned, for
reform for many years now. Then, I read this:
http://groups.google.com/group/alt.hist ... 792deb304#
- its a shocking catalogue of suppression and hate generated within
the ranks of the T.H.S.
Worst of all, is the "high up" member of the THS sending a message to
a man whose wife
was seriously ill in hospital asking if he was going to "off" [kill]
his wife. The fact that
this was sent from a THS email without a disclaimer means that it must
be endorsed (?)
What is wrong with the THS?
Regards
Vance"
First off, you tout yourself as a member of the THS. A simple check
of the THS membership rolls show that you are not a member, and are
therefore lying.
Second, you tout yourself as a member of the THS Message Board. A
simple check of the THSMB rolls show that you are not a member, and
are therefore lying.
Third, you state that my email to Paul Lee was sent from a THS
eddress. It was not. Once again, you are lying. Reproduced below is
my email to Mr. Lee, showing the entire email sent from my personal
email account:
"----- Original Message -----
From: tjtr...@XXXXXX.net
To: pa...@XXXXXXX.com
Sent: Monday, March 22, 2010 8:01 PM
Subject: Facebook and paranoia
"I seem to be going through a hyperactive phase. Plus I have to stay
up late in case Toxic Tim Trower tries to access my website again.
Bloody cyber-stalker, waiting until I was at a low ebb and my wife was
ill.
Yesterday at 8:07pm
"Are you trying to off her as well as yourself?"
This, of course, was a quote taken from his Facebook page with my one-
line comment below. I document and save everything.
You assume too much, and if you are really Jim Danvers and not simply
writing from a throw-a-way eddress with a false name, you need to
learn what discernment is before taking things at face value. (I'll
try to use a lot of small words so that you can understand what I
write.) (In reality, "Jim Danvers" was indeed writing from a throw-a-
way eddress -- just a typical coward, afraid to show his real
identity.)
Because a person (Vance Brand) makes a statement doesn't make it a
fact. The answer is right in the rules, as will be shown below.
1. You cannot assume that emails sent by a party (Vance Brand)
misrepresenting himself are valid.
2. A message board member is not also a THS member. (That requires
the yearly payment of dues.)
3. Any THS member can be a message board member, and likewise a non-
THS member can be a message board member -- the board is open to use
by anyone who will follow the rules and register in their real/actual
name.
4. A THS member pays annual dues. There is no so-called “fellow THS
member” named Bruce Vance (nor has there ever been). More importantly
“Vance Brand” did not follow the one simple rule for membership on the
THS message board. In order to be a member of the THS Message Board
one agrees to the Rules. He clearly did not.
From the THSMB rules, as posted prominently on the message board:
"Please read and carefully study these rules. The forum rules may be
updated at any time, and, as a member of the THS message board, you
are responsible for keeping abreast of changes to the rules. By
creating a message board account you indicate that you have read and
agree with the rules.
"By reading the rules page carefully you will also find hints and tips
that will make your experience on the THS message board more
enjoyable.
"Registration: When you register you must provide a real first and
last name and a genuine email address. Without this information your
membership cannot be approved. Additionally, your user name must
reflect your actual name. For example, if your name is, John Doe
Smith, appropriate user names could be: JohnSmith, John Smith, John D
Smith, JohnDSmith or John Doe Smith. We ask for your full name to
create an honest and credible historical community. Many of our
members know each other, and this information is important so that
additional friendships may be made and to provide a measure of honesty
and credibility between message board users. Members using a false
identity will have their membership terminated immediately. This rule
includes multiple registrations. Registering and posting using more
than one account will not be tolerated, and will result in an instant
dismissal. If you are having difficulty logging in to your original
account, please contact the administrators.If you do not wish to
follow these rules you are welcome to follow discussions as a guest
without the ability to join into the discourse between registered
members.
"Disclaimer: The Titanic Historical Society message board is a public
forum, and the views expressed are not necessarily those of the
officers of THS. The moderators and forum owner cannot guarantee the
validity of any facts, views, accuracy, reliability, opinions and
statements by members. The THS message board exists to promote the
free flow of information about the Titanic and other ships of
interest."
Since "Vance Brand" misrepresented himself from the outset -- by not
following the rules -- his "membership" on the THSMB is null and
void. And your piteous attempt to create problems within the THS
itself has once again failed miserably.
Regards,
Tim Trower
John Smith
Society email address!
Tim Trower
> But your replies on this board _were_ from a Titanic Historical
> Society email address!
Please then provide verification of who you are and if you are indeed
a real person. "John Smith"? You might as well have used "Jane Doe".
(I happen to use this gmail account in that it is convenient -- I
don't follow the lead of others on this group who create one-off
eddresses for the purpose of sending scurrilous emails. [Sorry for
using such a big word, but you probably have access to a dictionary.]
Of course, since you are using a Google eddress, using your logic, are
you also responding for and speaking for the Google Corporation?)
John Smith
provide a disclaimer.
However, you issue your statements via a THS email address, you act as
admin for their
message board, and you provide a few tepid musings for the THS
magazine in the form
of a "book review." Since this proves you are an officer, or a trusted
member of that organisation,
this means that, without a disclaimer, you speak for them.
However, this is by-the-by. Since you accuse me of having the verbiage
equivalent of a common
street urchin, I shall not disappoint. I think you are a sour minded
fuck bucket, and your extended
family (hopefully you earn enough at White Star Publishing in
Springfield, MI to feed them?) reeks
of someone who has children merely to fleece the state of welfare
payments.
Tim Trower
It would seem that I got under your skin, Mr. "Smith".
Gerald S.
proof readers (the boarding card for Amy Stanley said she was "exited"
to be going to America!), and more fact checkers. Like most Titanic
museums, this one
follows the trend in that the gift shop sells a load of tacky crap.
For instance, a book about the apocryphal tale of Rigel, the
Newfoundland dog. Hopefully I'll be going to Branson soon enough so I
can compare the two.
John Smith
<Trevor.Rommel...@uk2.net> wrote:
> By the way, it was great to meet Joseph Carvalho at last weekend's TI
> meeting. He is the real driving force
> behind the founding of the THS, not tea-boy Kamuda.
You mean Carvalho is ALIVE? I thought he was dead or incapacitated?
You mean Karen Kamuda
lied? Well I never.
John Smith
Gez, I'll send you some of the stuff about the THS we have. I think
you'll
be horrified, and a bit surprised too.
Jerod Bat
I'm fairly new to the world of Titanic research; I've been a Titanic enthusiast since I read one of Ballard's books as a child, and now that I'm nearly 40 my enthusiasm has grown into a full-blown passion for the ship's history. I came here -- entirely by mistake, it would seem -- as I was searching (in vain) for a copy of Dave Gittin's ebook. This page just happened to have his name in one of the posts when I ran a brief Google search for "'Dave Gittin' ebook", so I hopped in hoping to find a URL where I could download it.
Instead, I find this lengthy flame war between grown adults who should, quite frankly, know better than to engage in this sort of extremely childish behavior.
As the old adage goes, "Never meet your heroes." Fortunately, thanks to the Internet and the lovely, lovely content splayed all over it, I will never have to meet my former heroes to find out that they're all insufferable twits. I can read their Internet posts to find that out without ever having to leave the comfort of my cozy Texas home, just as I've read the horrifying posts above.
Yes, some of you guys -- Titanic researchers in general -- were once my heroes. (I really need to set the bar for who counts as one of my "heroes" higher, don't I?) I've read some of your Titanic works and thought to myself, "These intellectuals are the goodly souls in search of knowledge that I aspire to be more like!"
Then I found your blogs and forum posts (like the posts above), and I immediately regretted ever thinking that.
To err is human, and no human is without fault. (That alone is why I could never be a humanist.) However, immaturity is on my list of truly exceptional faults, especially immaturity from intellectuals old enough to have graduated from college. Yet, that is all I've found from the Titanic community, and it's tremendously disheartening. From Ballard's ego-centrism to Dr. Paul Lee's vitriol, the sniping-in-kind/borderline cyber-stalking of Timothy Trower, and the other antics I've seen above, I've lost faith in the entire Titanic community. I feel a little like Diogenes the Cynic, searching to and fro for an honest man and finding none.
You guys are why people like me -- newbies to the Titanic scene -- get so put off by the cliquish and overly-dramatic behavior we see from you and either walk away from Titanic communities like Encyclopedia Titanica or the THS in disgust or refuse to join them at all. You're highly intelligent, your research is damn near impeccable, and your writings sublime, but if you were all aboard the Titanic on her fateful maiden voyage, your behavior as human beings makes me root for the iceberg.
You should all be terribly ashamed of yourselves. The whole world is watching you, and we are all disgusted by you.