"Shut up, shut up"

[Eric Smith]

It's a familiar story that Cyrill Evans, wireless operator of the
Californian, tried to radio an ice warning to the Titanic shortly before
the collision and Phillips replied "Shut up, shut up, I am busy. I am
working Cape Race," meaning he was busy with passengers' personal
messages and Evans was interfering with that. After which Evans switched
his set off and went to bed; some say he was miffed, others merely that
he was turning in for the night.

There's a part of the Senate testimony of Harold Bride that I find
curious and that may have a bearing on this story:

Senator Smith: What is the silent signal?

Mr. Marconi: I do not know it, personally.

Senator Smith: Under the international convention, I mean.

Mr. Marconi: I do not know it.

Mr. Bride: It is D.D.D.

Mr. Marconi: D.D.D.

Senator Smith: That is the silent signal?

Mr. Marconi: Yes, sir; that means "shut up."

Senator Smith: All other stations must cease?

Mr. Marconi: All other stations must cease.

So the question is, was it this DDD signal that Phillips sent, instead
of the actual words "shut up"? It seems reasonable to assume that it was;
it would seem easier to understand, faster to send, and well-known to
wireless operators. In that case the "shut up, shut up" message was not
on nearly a personal (or insulting) basis as we might otherwise assume,
and the implication that Evans signed off in a huff is probably not so
strong.

Anyone have any more information about this?

-----
Eric Smith | "They were like travellers unwillingly
erics @netcom .com | returned from brilliant realms, not yet
http://www.catsdogs.com | adjusted to their return." - Olivia Manning

This was posted with an altered address to thwart bulk email programs.
To respond by email, take out the ".remove.this" part.

[RFSMBSYA]

In article <ericsEp...@netcom.com>, er...@netcom.remove.this.com (Eric
Smith) writes:

>In that case the "shut up, shut up" message was not
>on nearly a personal (or insulting) basis as we might otherwise assume,
>and the implication that Evans signed off in a huff is probably not so
>strong.

It certainly makes sense that Phillips would not have taken the time to spell
out something for which there was already a code (DDD), especially when it was
simply to tell someone to stay off his air, after which he went right back to
his transmissions to Cape Race.

[Jackie McElroy]

Eric Smith <er...@netcom.remove.this.com> wrote:
>
> It's a familiar story that Cyrill Evans, wireless operator of the
> Californian, tried to radio an ice warning to the Titanic shortly before
> the collision and Phillips replied "Shut up, shut up, I am busy. I am
> working Cape Race,"

> <edit............edit>

> So the question is, was it this DDD signal that Phillips sent, instead
> of the actual words "shut up"? It seems reasonable to assume that it was;
> it would seem easier to understand, faster to send, and well-known to

> wireless operators. In that case the "shut up, shut up" message was not

> on nearly a personal (or insulting) basis as we might otherwise assume,
> and the implication that Evans signed off in a huff is probably not so
> strong.
>

>Anyone have any more information about this?

I'm not an expert on such things, but then I'm not an expert on a lot
of things. Fortunately, I know a ot of different people, several of
whom are experts on various things. So, when I wonder about such
things, I ain't proud about it: I ask one of them.

A guy I know who has been into shortwave monitoring and equipment and
uage for longer than I've been alive (and I remember the Kennedy-Nixon
elections) told me that those who take this reply by Phillips as being
rude or who think that Evans would have taken it personal are quite
mistaken. He indicated that such transmissions were fairly common at
the time and were not taken personally at all.

Phillips was indicating to Evans that he was busy doing what he got
paid to do, i.e. sending personal messages of the passengers onboard
the ship to which he was then posted. Being busy means having to
prioritize one's owrk, and sending these personal messages was
considered a priority task. Evans would have known that. He would not
have shut off his set in a miff at being snubbed. It wasn't a snub. He
shut the set off because he was tired; it was late; and he wanted to
get some sleep before returning to duty early the next morning.

-jackie

Jackie McElroy, B.A., E.M.D.
mcja...@usa.pipeline.com
Venice Florida USA
Fire-Rescue Dispatcher
Sarasota County 9-1-1
(I speak for me,
not my boss)

[Eric Smith]

mcja...@usa.pipeline.com (Jackie McElroy) writes:

> Eric Smith <er...@netcom.remove.this.com> wrote:

>> It's a familiar story that Cyrill Evans, wireless operator of the
>> Californian, tried to radio an ice warning to the Titanic shortly before
>> the collision and Phillips replied "Shut up, shut up, I am busy. I am
>> working Cape Race,"
>> <edit............edit>
>> So the question is, was it this DDD signal that Phillips sent, instead
>> of the actual words "shut up"? It seems reasonable to assume that it was;

[ ... ]

>A guy I know who has been into shortwave monitoring and equipment and
>uage for longer than I've been alive (and I remember the Kennedy-Nixon
>elections) told me that those who take this reply by Phillips as being
>rude or who think that Evans would have taken it personal are quite
>mistaken. He indicated that such transmissions were fairly common at
>the time and were not taken personally at all.

>Phillips was indicating to Evans that he was busy doing what he got
>paid to do, i.e. sending personal messages of the passengers onboard
>the ship to which he was then posted. Being busy means having to
>prioritize one's owrk, and sending these personal messages was
>considered a priority task. Evans would have known that. He would not
>have shut off his set in a miff at being snubbed. It wasn't a snub. He
>shut the set off because he was tired; it was late; and he wanted to
>get some sleep before returning to duty early the next morning.

I'm not one who believes that Evans being miffed has anything to do
with him switching his set off either. But I would like to find out
if it was in fact DDD that Phillips sent him rather than the words
"shut up," because I have never seen any written account indicate
that this might be the case.

[Rod Stringer]

Eric
I don't know for definite, but I guess this chap *might*:
http://users.netinfo.com.au/anars/#trd
*THE* RMS TITANIC RADIO PAGE

Sample of the mind-bending info held here.....

1-30 a.m Titanic tells Olympic, "We are putting passengers off in small
boats."
"Women and Children in boats, can not last much longer"
1-35 a.m.Olympic asks Titanic what weather he had.
Titanic replies, "Clear and calm."

Christ, I've heard it all now.....

Rod Stringer
**Celeriter Nil Crede**

[Butler1918]

Eric Smith wrote:
> I'm not one who believes that Evans being miffed has anything to do
> with him switching his set off either. But I would like to find out
> if it was in fact DDD that Phillips sent him rather than the words
> "shut up," because I have never seen any written account indicate
> that this might be the case.
>
> -----

I discussed this with David Norris, an amateur radio enthusiast (ham operator)
as well as a private investigator. He's the one who discovered that Harold
Bride had become a salesman after he left Marconi, and ultimately died in a
Glasgow hospital in 1956.

David is of the opinion that Phillips almost certainly did use the DDD signal,
but in the context, Evans would have taken it as a rebuke, and rightly so.
Evans had broken in on Phillips' transmission without asking for a break from
Phillips, and simply started sending "I say old man, did you know we are
stopped in the ice?" without using any identifier at all. This went against
the accepted conventions of the day as well as common courtesy, and when Evans
heard the DDD he realized his mistake and simply shut his set down.

By contrast, if you look at Harold Cottam's first contact with Phillips, you'll
find that Cottam first asked for--and got--a break from Phillips, before he
began his greeting "GMOM (Good Morning Old Man) Did you know that there are
messages for you at Cape Race?" Cottam'smessage to Phillips was far more
trivial in nature than Evans' but because he followed proceedure, Cottam wasn't
immediately brushed off by Phillips--and Phillips was willing to blow anybody
off, witness his response to the moron on board the Frankfort.!

Daniel Allen Butler

Oh, shit! I just remembered: David Norris' work on finding Bride was not only
recounted to me first hand by Norris, but is also recorded in the updated
version of Pellegrino's book. Guess that makes it, as well as anything else
David says, worthless, doesn't it?

[Miss Lane]

>you'll
>find that Cottam first asked for--and got--a break from Phillips, before he
>began his greeting "GMOM (Good Morning Old Man) Did you know that there are
>messages for you at Cape Race?"

This is fascinating! I always wondered about those transmissions....I assumed
the "shut up" was not particularly rude, just an "I'm working here" type
message. But to learn it might have been an accepted code - DDD - makes much
more sense.
Even better tho is to learn that all that veddy British "old man" stuff was all
standard code too.
Its as if someone 100 years from now translated our Internet transmissions and
thought it quaint that we were always presenting ideas as our "humble
opinion"......

[Butler1918]

It would also make it easier to understand bits like IMHO, IOW, LOL, ROFLMAO,
etc.

By the way Miss Lane, a slight correction is in order: while I do have
opinions, they are NEVER humble.

Daniel Allen Butler
author, soldier of fortune, and legend in his own mind

[WLambrukos]

>It certainly makes sense that Phillips would not have taken the time to spell
>out something for which there was already a code (DDD), especially when it
>was
>simply to tell someone to stay off his air, after which he went right back to
>his transmissions to Cape Race.<<

Technically, I believe he was receving from Cape Race. Evans, being much
closer, blew away the reception so he could not hear the cape.

Bill
>
>

[WLambrukos]

>Evans had broken in on Phillips' transmission without asking for a break from
>Phillips<<

I have read that Phillips was receiving transmissions, not transmitting, so
Evans blew the cape off the air.

>Oh, shit! I just remembered: David Norris' work on finding Bride was not
>only
>recounted to me first hand by Norris, but is also recorded in the updated
>version of Pellegrino's book. <<

I believe the THS has also come down on the side of believing this may be the
real Bride too.

Phillips is sung as a hero, but I find that may be overblown. Phillips
believed, on the strength of the signal, that the closest ship to them was the
Frankfurt. However, since he got angry with the Frankfurt, because he felt
them incompetent, he basically told them to stand-by and refused to
communicate with them directly after that. I haven't gone into the full
details here, but reading the transcripts on this (Bride's testimony) I think
Phillip's arrogance could, HAD HE BEEN RIGHT about the distances, have
contributed to the disaster.

Thoughts ?

Bill

[WLambrukos]

>By the way Miss Lane, a slight correction is in order: while I do have
>opinions, they are NEVER humble.
>
>Daniel Allen Butler
>author, soldier of fortune, and legend in his own mind<<

By God, an honest man !!

Bill :-)
>
>

[Scott Bragg]

On 17 Mar 1998 12:49:06 GMT, butle...@aol.com (Butler1918) wrote:

>It would also make it easier to understand bits like IMHO, IOW, LOL, ROFLMAO,
>etc.
>

>By the way Miss Lane, a slight correction is in order: while I do have
>opinions, they are NEVER humble.
>

How true.... <g>

(could'nt resist).

Scott Bragg 3D Animator / Programmer / Systems Admin
sc...@electrondreams.com www.electrondreams.com

[JNugent231]

>>It would also make it easier to understand bits like IMHO, IOW, LOL,
>ROFLMAO,
>>etc.
>>

Good point - what does ROFLMAO mean anyway? :-)

[Bob Botts]

In article <199803171925...@ladder01.news.aol.com> jnuge...@aol.com (JNugent231) writes:

Rolling on floor laughing my a** off. :-)

...Bob

[Butler1918]

>I believe the THS has also come down on the side of believing this may be the
>real Bride too.
>
>

I know this will probably be regarded as sacrilege by this NG, but I don't take
everything that the THS says as gospel truth either. This is the same bunch
that wants us to believe that the Californian was 22 miles away from Titanic,
even though the Board of Trade reinvestigation concluded (before the trade
unions and hte Laboour Party got their hands on the report) that she was no
more than 12 miles away.

>Phillips is sung as a hero, but I find that may be overblown. Phillips
>believed, on the strength of the signal, that the closest ship to them was
>the
>Frankfurt. However, since he got angry with the Frankfurt, because he felt
>them incompetent, he basically told them to stand-by and refused to
>communicate with them directly after that. I haven't gone into the full
>details here, but reading the transcripts on this (Bride's testimony) I think
>Phillip's arrogance could, HAD HE BEEN RIGHT about the distances, have
>contributed to the disaster.
>
>Thoughts ?

Phillips had a very clear idea of where the ships were. Remember that he had
been transmitting the Titanic's position (albeit a slighty erroneous one) fromn
the first call he sent out. He knew that Carpathia was 58 miiles away--and
"coming hard" as Cottam put it--and knew that the Frankfort was 150 miles away,
again becuase the German ship's operator informed him. Phillips abruptness
with the Frankfort's opeator may be excused by the stress that rather
highly-strung young man was under, but there isn't any excuse for the
Frankfort's operator's apparent density. Either he was not very bright or he
was being the typical, overbearing, self-important pre-WW I German.

Daniel Allen Butler

[Butler1918]

Gee, thanks, Scott. Like I really needed comments from the Peanut Gallery.

See if I let you do the artwork on the cover of my NEXT book!

Daniel Allen Butler

For those of you who have seen the dust jacket on my book "Unsinkable" the
illustration was rendered by C. Scott Bragg, an animator and illustrator, using
Light Wave. I know I'm a little biased, but I think the results were
impressive.>>By the way Miss Lane, a slight correction is in order: while I do

[WLambrukos]

>Phillips had a very clear idea of where the ships were. Remember that he had
>
>been transmitting the Titanic's position (albeit a slighty erroneous one)
>fromn
>the first call he sent out. He knew that Carpathia was 58 miiles away--and
>"coming hard" as Cottam put it--and
>knew that the Frankfort was 150 miles away,
>again becuase the German ship's operator informed him. Phillips abruptness
>with the Frankfort's opeator may be excused by the stress that rather
>highly-strung young man was under, but there isn't any excuse for the
>Frankfort's operator's apparent density. Either he was not very bright or he
>was being the typical, overbearing, self-important pre-WW I German.<<

Not sure I would agree, based on Bride's testimony from the US Enquiry

Smith: Did anyone say in your hearing that they thought the Frankfurt was in
closer proximity to the Titanic than any other ship?

Bride: Yes, sir, Phillips told me so.

Smith: Who said that?

Bride: Mr. Phillips told me that, judging by the strength of the signals
received from the two ships, the Frankfurt was the nearer.
******* *************
The first ship to respond to CQD was Frankfurt, the second ship was the
Carpathia. Based on Phillips' reply the he felt the Frankfurt was the closer
(as told to Bride) so he proceeded on that premise. Bride goes on to tell
Smith that after taking the message from the Frankfurt to the captain he
returned to Phillips who was "waiting for the position of the boat (Frankfurt)
then". This implies to me he is not certain of the Frankfurts position, and
based on the strength of the signals believes Frankfurt is closer than
Carpathia.

Carpathia then called back with her position, and shortly after contact was
made with Olympic. At this time the captain, in front of Phillips
(apparently) worked out the distance between Titanic and Carpathia. Based on
the chronology of the Enquiry question, it is after this takes place that
Phillips now tells Bride he believes the Frankfurt to be closer. After about
20 mintes from first contact with Frankfurt, the Frankfurt called back asking
"what is the matter", and Phillips called him a fool and then told him to
stand by (instead of saying, "we are sinking !)"

Based on Bride's testimony at the US Enquiry concerning his conversations with
Phillips, it still appears to me Phillips thought the Frankfurt the closer ship
(which it wasn't) and due to his attitude was willing to gamble the lives of
all on board.

If you have other sources I loved to follow-up on this, but it would seem Bride
is a pretty tough source to argue against.

Thanks for your thought.

Bill

>
>

[Butler1918]

Bill, keep in mind that when Phillips blew the Frankfort off, he did so AFTER
he had heard from the Carpathia, and so knew she was closer than Frankfort--I'm
sure the wireless logs of the various ships will bear that out. I'll double
check and have a specific reference for you tomorrow.. I don't think that
Phillips would have done so if he really thought the Frankfort was the closer
of the two ships--by the time of the "Shut up, you fool!" exchange, Phillips
was getting desperate. You can almost hear the "YOU MORON!" in his reply to
the Olympic when she asked if the Titanic was steering south to meet her--he
said"We are putting the women off in the boats!"

If the "Shut up, you fool!" remark had come before Phillips knew how close the
Carpathia and the Frankfort were, then it wouold be that Phillips was acting
very irresponsibly--and that's not something that ever comes across in Bride's
testimony, or Cottam's.

Returnb thoughts?

Daniel Allen Butler

[Andrys D Basten]

In article <199803180310...@ladder01.news.aol.com>,
Butler1918 <butle...@aol.com> wrote:

>For those of you who have seen the dust jacket on my book "Unsinkable" the
>illustration was rendered by C. Scott Bragg, an animator and illustrator, using
>Light Wave. I know I'm a little biased, but I think the results were
>impressive.

Great Scott! You're Bragging!

:)

--
===========================================================
Andrys Basten <and...@netcom.com>
CNE, Basten Micro Consulting
San Francisco/East Bay - 510/235-3861
Have music, will travel: piano, harpsichord, recorders
http://www.andrys.com -Online resources, Peru photos w/Canon Elph

[Butler1918]

>In article <199803180310...@ladder01.news.aol.com>,
>Butler1918 <butle...@aol.com> wrote:
>
>>For those of you who have seen the dust jacket on my book "Unsinkable" the
>>illustration was rendered by C. Scott Bragg, an animator and illustrator,
>using
>>Light Wave. I know I'm a little biased, but I think the results were
>>impressive.
>
>Great Scott! You're Bragging!
>
> :)
>

No Bragg, just fact.

Daniel Allen Butler

[WLambrukos]

>Bill, keep in mind that when Phillips blew the Frankfort off, he did so AFTER
>he had heard from the Carpathia, <<

I agree with that, but remember, Bride says Phillips told him he thought the
Frankfurt was the closer of the two ships (Frankfurt and Carpathia), and still
he blew off the Frankfurt ! Until both ships gave their position and the
bridge crew worked out the difference, Bride would not KNOW which ship was
closer.

[WLambrukos]

SORRY, hit send instead of CC on my other message, wasn't done

>If the "Shut up, you fool!" remark had come
before Phillips knew how close
>the
>Carpathia and the Frankfort were, then it wouold be that Phillips was acting
>very irresponsibly--and that's not something that ever comes across in
>Bride's
>testimony, <<

That is exactly how Phillips comes across in Bride's testimony (as I read it).
You can almost feel the tension of Bride's answers as Smith keeps pushing on
this and on why not just say,"we are sinking", instead of "you fool" !

CQD with Titanic's position is received by Frankfurt.

When Phillips sent Bride to Smith to let him know he had contacted the
Frankfurt Bride is clear that Phillips did NOT know the location of the
Frankfurt (her position). Phillips contacted the Carpathia while waiting for
the reply from the Frankfurt as to her position. Carpathia then gave her
position (which would do Phillips no good unless he knew Titanic's position and
had (and was capable of) working out the distance.

The captain then went to Phillips, who had just contacted the Olympic, and the
Smith worked out the distance between Carpathia and Titanic.

Shortly after this Phillips tells Bride he believes the Frankfurt is the closer
of the two ships. (based on signal strength). Bride goes on to say, they never
learned the position of the Frankfurt and never, directly, told the Frankfurt
what was the matter. Bride says when Smith asked them where the Frankfurt was,
they could not tell him.

Frankfurt finally calls back and asks, "what is the matter" and is called a
fool and told to "keep out of it", and Phillips never speaks to the Frankfurt
directly again.

From the US Enquiry, when asked what if the Frankfurt had been the nearer
boat,

Bride: Had we known the Frankfurt's position, having already got the
Carpathia's position, we should have used our judgement, and had the Frankfurt
been any reasonable distance nearer we should have informed the Frankfurt of
the whole business and repeated each word we sent to him about a dozen times,
to make sure he got it.

So we know, Phillips did NOT know the Frankfurt's position, and Phillips HAD
told Bride he thought the Frankfurt was closer based on the strength of the
signal.

Phillips acted VERY irresponsibly. You can put this in your sequel!!

PS, I broke down and ordered your book, now it better be good !

Bill

[IrishRose]

WLambrukos wrote:

> Bride: Had we known the Frankfurt's position, having already got the
> Carpathia's position, we should have used our judgement, and had the
> Frankfurt been any reasonable distance nearer we should have informed
> the Frankfurt of the whole business and repeated each word we sent to
> him about a dozen times, to make sure he got it.

See this is why I think Phillips was not necessarily being irresponsible
(with regard to the Frankfurt)....the Frankfurt had already been told
"about a dozen times" the situation and was doing nothing about coming
to help. Even if it HAD been closer, for Phillips to waste valuable
time in having to repeat again and again the problem would do nothing
to get the Frankfurt to the Titanic. He guessed it was closer, but he
was working with cooperating (understanding) ships instead of going by
his hunch because he *knew* 1) He wasn't sure exactly whether the
Frankfurt was in fact closer (it wasn't) and 2) A moving ship a little
further away is more likely to be helpful than a closer ship standing
still doing nothing. (like the Californian for instance.)

Linda

>
> So we know, Phillips did NOT know the Frankfurt's position, and
> Phillips HAD told Bride he thought the Frankfurt was closer based on
> the strength of the signal.
>
> Phillips acted VERY irresponsibly. You can put this in your sequel!!
>
> PS, I broke down and ordered your book, now it better be good !
>
> Bill

--
@->--- @->--- @->--- @->--- @->--- @->---
"Not Everything that is beautiful is good.....
But everything that is Good is beautiful"
@->--- @->--- @->--- @->--- @->--- @->---

[Scott Bragg]

On Wed, 18 Mar 1998 08:43:34 GMT, and...@netcom.com (Andrys D Basten)
wrote:

>In article <199803180310...@ladder01.news.aol.com>,
>Butler1918 <butle...@aol.com> wrote:
>
>>For those of you who have seen the dust jacket on my book "Unsinkable" the
>>illustration was rendered by C. Scott Bragg, an animator and illustrator, using
>>Light Wave. I know I'm a little biased, but I think the results were
>>impressive.
>
>Great Scott! You're Bragging!
>

Thank you. I've not heard that one since 5th grade. <g>

And yes, I am the illustrator mentioned above.

Scott Bragg 3D Animator / Programmer / Web Developer
sc...@electrondreams.com www.electrondreams.com

[Andrys D Basten]

In article <35101fc9....@news.mindspring.com>,

Scott Bragg <sc...@electrondreams.com> wrote:
>On Wed, 18 Mar 1998 08:43:34 GMT, and...@netcom.com (Andrys D Basten)
>wrote:
>
>>In article <199803180310...@ladder01.news.aol.com>,
>>Butler1918 <butle...@aol.com> wrote:
>>
>>>For those of you who have seen the dust jacket on my book "Unsinkable" the
>>>illustration was rendered by C. Scott Bragg, an animator and
>illustrator, using
>>>Light Wave. I know I'm a little biased, but I think the results were
>>>impressive.
>>
>>Great Scott! You're Bragging!
>>
>
>Thank you. I've not heard that one since 5th grade. <g>

This is the level at which I am stuck :)

I couldn't resist, as a result, when Daniel said he was biased.

>And yes, I am the illustrator mentioned above.

I will get a copy of the book soon. Haven't seen it at my store yet.

It's got an April release, per Barnes and Noble's website, but I see that
amazon.com seems to be able to mail it right away.

- A

[WLambrukos]

>See this is why I think Phillips was not necessarily being irresponsible
>(with regard to the Frankfurt)....the Frankfurt had already been told
>"about a dozen times" the situation and was doing nothing about coming
>to help. <<

Not true. The Frankfurt received the CQD with Titanic's position once, then
contacted Titanic, telling her to stand by. Phillips assumed he went to tell
his captain and get Frankfurts position. 20 minutes later Frankfurt again
contacted Titanic and asked what was wrong ( I assume the Frankfurt's captain
wanted more details), and was told he was a fool and keep out! Phillips felt
since he had sent CQD the "what's the matter"question was foolish. Even if it
was, that would be an irresponsable reason to ignore what you thought was the
closest ship when you are sinking withoug enough lifeboats! No further
contact with Frankfurt. It's in the US Enquiry transcripts, and it makes sad
reading !!

> Even if it HAD been closer, for Phillips to waste valuable
>time in having to repeat again and again the problem would do nothing
>to get the Frankfurt to the Titanic. <<

Had it been closer and he said WE ARE SINKING I'm sure the Frankfurt would not
have ignored him. (see above).

>He wasn't sure exactly whether the
>Frankfurt was in fact closer (it wasn't) <<

No, but it thought it was and that is what makes his behavoir irresponsable.
Since he NEVER ascertained the ship's position he never would have known he was
wrong.

>2) A moving ship a little
>further away is more likely to be helpful than a closer ship standing
>still doing nothing. (like the Californian for instance.<<

Agree, but since he told the Frankfurt to stay out of it he enhanced the chance
that she would not move.

Bill

[SherSisk]

>It's got an April release, per Barnes and Noble's website, but I see that
>amazon.com seems to be able to mail it right away.

And it's in your local Waldenbooks right now, as we speak. :)

Sherrie, who's reading it now and, Daniel, so far so (verry) good!
~~~~~~
To myself I seem to have been only like a boy playing on the seashore,
diverting myself in now and then finding a smoother pebble or prettier shell
than the ordinary, whilst the great ocean of truth lay undiscovered before me.
~ Sir Isaac Newton

[Eric Smith]

wlamb...@aol.com (WLambrukos) writes:

>>See this is why I think Phillips was not necessarily being irresponsible
>>(with regard to the Frankfurt)....the Frankfurt had already been told
>>"about a dozen times" the situation and was doing nothing about coming
>>to help.

>Not true. The Frankfurt received the CQD with Titanic's position once, then
>contacted Titanic, telling her to stand by. Phillips assumed he went to tell
>his captain and get Frankfurts position. 20 minutes later Frankfurt again
>contacted Titanic and asked what was wrong ( I assume the Frankfurt's captain
>wanted more details), and was told he was a fool and keep out! Phillips felt
>since he had sent CQD the "what's the matter"question was foolish. Even if it
>was, that would be an irresponsable reason to ignore what you thought was the
>closest ship when you are sinking withoug enough lifeboats! No further
>contact with Frankfurt. It's in the US Enquiry transcripts, and it makes sad
>reading !!

I agree with your take on it, Bill, but as it turns out it didn't make any
difference since the Frankfurt was considerably further away than the
Carpathia anyway.

[gle...@ctaz.com]

> Sample of the mind-bending info held here.....
>
> 1-30 a.m Titanic tells Olympic, "We are putting passengers off in small
> boats."
> "Women and Children in boats, can not last much longer"
> 1-35 a.m.Olympic asks Titanic what weather he had.
> Titanic replies, "Clear and calm."
>
> Christ, I've heard it all now.....

What is "mind-bending"?? Those were actual
messages sent to and from the Titanic. They
are in the Olympic's message book.

Glenn S.

"You may fire at the iceberg when ready, Gridley."

-----== Posted via Deja News, The Leader in Internet Discussion ==-----
http://www.dejanews.com/ Now offering spam-free web-based newsreading

[10376...@compuserve.com]

> I know this will probably be regarded as sacrilege by this NG, but I don't >take everything that the THS says as gospel truth either. This is the same >bunch that wants us to believe that the Californian was 22 miles away from >Titanic, even though the Board of Trade reinvestigation concluded (before the >trade unions and hte Laboour Party got their hands on the report) that she >was no more than 12 miles away.

Not everyone affiliated with the THS believes the Lordite version of events.
(Take me, for instance.) :-) Unfortunately, though, I'm not the editor of the
Commutator.

> >Phillips is sung as a hero, but I find that may be overblown. Phillips
> >believed, on the strength of the signal, that the closest ship to them was
> >the Frankfurt. However, since he got angry with the Frankfurt, because he > >felt them incompetent, he basically told them to stand-by and refused to
> >communicate with them directly after that.

Despite Bride's testimony, the above rebuff didn't happen until VERY late in
the game. The notion that this rebuff took place just "twenty minutes" after
Phillips' original contact with Frankfurt originated with Senator Smith, not
with Bride. You also have to remember that Bride didn't have any way of
knowing what Phillips was receiving unless Phillips took the time to tell him
(which, judging from the original wireless logs of various ships, didn't
happen very often -- Bride's account leaves a great deal to be desired
regarding accuracy.) Anyone interested in the full story of the Frankfurt
should refer to my two-part article in the Commutator. (Don't have the dates
handy at the moment, but will look for them and post them here if anyone is
interested.)

> Phillips abruptness with the Frankfort's opeator may be excused by the >stress that rather highly-strung young man was under, but there isn't any >excuse for the Frankfort's operator's apparent density. Either he was not >very bright or he was being the typical, overbearing, self-important pre-WW I German.

Frankfurt's operator Zippel was neither dense nor overbearing -- he's just
been given a bad rap by folks who have taken Bride's testimony at face value.

All my best,

George Behe

[Butler1918]

>Despite Bride's testimony, the above rebuff didn't happen until VERY late in
>the game. The notion that this rebuff took place just "twenty minutes" after
>Phillips' original contact with Frankfurt originated with Senator Smith, not
>with Bride. You also have to remember that Bride didn't have any way of
>knowing what Phillips was receiving unless Phillips took the time to tell him
>(which, judging from the original wireless logs of various ships, didn't
>happen very often -- Bride's account leaves a great deal to be desired
>regarding accuracy.) Anyone interested in the full story of the Frankfurt
>should refer to my two-part article in the Commutator. (Don't have the
dates
>handy at the moment, but will look for them and post them here if anyone is
>interested.)
>
>> Phillips abruptness with the Frankfort's opeator may be excused by the
>>stress that rather highly-strung young man was under, but there isn't any
>>excuse for the Frankfort's operator's apparent density. Either he was not
>>very bright or he was being the typical, overbearing, self-important pre-WW
>I German.
>
>Frankfurt's operator Zippel was neither dense nor overbearing -- he's just
>been given a bad rap by folks who have taken Bride's testimony at face value.
>
>All my best,
>
>George Behe

Thanks, George, for the back-up. That had been my understanding as well, that
Phillips had blown the Frankfort off sometime around 1:30 (the wireless logs
aren't always very clear on times since they were all kept in local ship's
time, which varied from ship to ship) and not within 20-30 minuets of the
initial contact. I really don't get the impression from Bride's testimony
that Phillips was behaving.irresponsibly. In fact I think he handled the
stress very admirably. The one time he cracked ("The damn fool! He says what's
up old man!") is not only understandable but forgiveable.

Daniel Allen Butler

[Scott Bragg]

On Thu, 19 Mar 1998 04:50:23 GMT, and...@netcom.com (Andrys D Basten)
wrote:

>I will get a copy of the book soon. Haven't seen it at my store yet.
>

>It's got an April release, per Barnes and Noble's website, but I see that
>amazon.com seems to be able to mail it right away.

It's already on the shelves at the Barnes & Noble in Atlanta. Bought a
copy so I'll have one to read. (the proof copy sent to me by Dan is sealed
and stored in a safe place... never to be opened. <g>)

[WLambrukos]

>Despite Bride's testimony, the above rebuff didn't happen until VERY late in
>the game. The notion that this rebuff took place just "twenty minutes" after
>Phillips' original contact with Frankfurt originated with Senator Smith, not
>with Bride. <<

*****************From US Enquiry**************

Bride: He called us up at a considerably long period afterwards and asked us
what was the matter.

Smith: How long after?

Bride: I should say it would be considerably over 20 minutes afterwards

Smith: 20 minutes after the message giving your position of the Titanic-

Bride: and the CQD

Smith: And the CQD distress call, you got another message from the Frankfurt
saying, "What is the matter"?

Bride: Yes sir.

Now, you may argue that Bride has no idea what the Hell he is talking about,
but the first mention of 20 minutes, in any context, comes from Bride. Now, if
it was 60 minutes later, would he more likely say, a considerable period after
50 minutes?

>You also have to remember that Bride didn't have any way of
>knowing what Phillips was receiving unless Phillips took the time to tell
him<<

Agree, but a large portion of his testimony constitutes what Phillips was
telling him !?! He is very clear about that.

>Bride's account leaves a great deal to be desired
>regarding accuracy.)<<

You could be right, but isn't it strange that one would say the man at the
scene doing nothing more than carrying messages to Smith (and Bride is so
often noted as one of the more reliable sources for other things)
is suddently having his accuracy questioned while folks 80 years later would
be more accurate ?!? Can't say it isn't so, but the doubt would have to be
given to Bride.

As I am so fond of saying, I have no insight beyond anyone alive today into
what happened that night, and could be just as easily wrong as right. However,
I have to put some strong weight on the testimony of Bride based on his
performance throughout the ordeal and after. We hear often how he was a
trained observer (listener) and that is an arguement used to support Song of
Autumn (or Autumn) being played, and Smith diving off the bridge. His
testimony is consistent as he answers and quite coherent. It is NOT
necessarily consistent with the log of messages as compiled \by the British
Enquiry, but that too could be because he is commenting as to what Phillips
was telling him, as Bride was not listening in . Interestingly, I can find no
reference in the British Enquiry wireless timeline to Phillips calling the
Frankfurt a fool and to stay out, In fact, at 12:26 to 12:30 he allegedly
tells the Frankfurt (in reply to the what is happening message) they collided
with an iceberg and are sinking, tell your captain (can we say whitewash).
That appears to be the last time the two spoke. If true, that's 50 minutes
after hitting the berg and only 15 minutes after the first noted receipt of
Titanic's distress signal (British Enquiry). We know Phillips called the
Frankfurt operator a fool and told him to keep out (based on Bride's
testimony), there is no record of that in the timeline of wireless
communications (didn't search through the whole report looking to see if it was
addressed). Candidly, the timeline of wireless messages in the British
Enquiry looks shakey.

Thanks for your thoughts. And, not only did I just order Daniel's book, I
ordered yours too. Unfortunently, it is backordered so it may be a while
before I get to read it.

Bill

[WLambrukos]

>Thanks, George, for the back-up. That had been my understanding as well, that
>Phillips had blown the Frankfort off sometime around 1:30 (the wireless logs
>aren't always very clear on times since they were all kept in local ship's
>time, <<

The 20 minute comment comes from Bride (who should know), please see my post to
George on this ng.

In the report of the British Enquiry the timeline for messages is recorded in
NY time and Titanic time, not each individual ship's time. Again, see the post
to George, there is definently something wrong with the Enquiry's timeline.

Bill

[WLambrukos]

>I agree with your take on it, Bill, but as it turns out it didn't make any
>difference since the Frankfurt was considerably further away than the
>Carpathia anyway.<<

You are absolutely correct on that Eric. What bothers me is that even though
it made no difference, HE (Phillips) THOUGHT THE FRANKFURT WAS CLOSER, and
that was what makes his actions irresponsable.

Obviously you too have been reading the transcripts ! :-)

Bill

[Eric Smith]

wlamb...@aol.com (WLambrukos) writes:

Yes I have. :) Did Phillips think the Frankfurt was closer? Maybe at
first, but apparently not later. The Frankfurt got back in touch and
asked "what was the matter," according to Bride "considerably over 20
minutes afterwards," and later he says "a considerable period afterwards"
(i.e. after their first communication). However one interprets that time
period, Bride also says that when the Frankfurt got back in touch,
"we knew that the Carpathia was the best thing doing." He doesn't
explain how they knew that, but it can't be ruled out that they had
something on which to base a conclusion that the Frankfurt could not
help. Why else would they blow him off? It wouldn't make any sense,
if there was any possibility of help from the Frankfurt.

[10376...@compuserve.com]

I wrote:

> >Despite Bride's testimony, the above rebuff didn't happen until VERY late in
> >the game. The notion that this rebuff took place just "twenty minutes" after
> >Phillips' original contact with Frankfurt originated with Senator Smith, not
> >with Bride. <<

Bill Lambrukos replied:

> *****************From US Enquiry**************
>
> Bride: He called us up at a considerably long period afterwards and asked us
> what was the matter.
>
> Smith: How long after?
>
> Bride: I should say it would be considerably over 20 minutes afterwards
>
>

> Now, you may argue that Bride has no idea what the Hell he is talking about,
> but the first mention of 20 minutes, in any context, comes from Bride.

True, but he said *considerably over* twenty minutes - it was Smith who, for
the sake of convenience, reduced it to "twenty minutes."

> Now, if
> it was 60 minutes later, would he more likely say, a considerable period after
> 50 minutes?

Perhaps, perhaps not. Even Walter Lord said that survivors' perception of
the passage of time was distorted. (Speaking of Walter, review ANTR and see
when Walter says the "Shut up, you fool" message occurred.)

> >Bride's account leaves a great deal to be desired
> >regarding accuracy.)<<
>
> You could be right, but isn't it strange that one would say the man at the
> scene doing nothing more than carrying messages to Smith (and Bride is so
> often noted as one of the more reliable sources for other things)
> is suddently having his accuracy questioned while folks 80 years later would
> be more accurate ?!? Can't say it isn't so, but the doubt would have to be
> given to Bride.

Memory is fallible. I'd say the benefit of the doubt should be given to
written records that were recorded while the disaster was actually taking
place (i.e. the original Marconi P.V.s of the ships that were in
communication with the Titanic.) You'll find that Frankfurt did indeed send
her position to the Titanic, and that her "What's up, old man" message was
sent "considerably longer than twenty minutes later."

> I have to put some strong weight on the testimony of Bride based on his

> performance throughout the ordeal and after. .... His testimony is >consistent as he answers and quite coherent.

His testimony isn't all that consistent if you compare his Senate testimony,
his British testimony and his official report to the Marconi Company. (It's
*similar*, but there are differences, too.)

> It is NOT necessarily consistent with the log of messages as compiled \by >the British Enquiry, but that too could be because he is commenting as to >what Phillips was telling him, as Bride was not listening in .

That's what I said earlier. Bride's account is based on incomplete
information.

> Interestingly, I can find no
> reference in the British Enquiry wireless timeline to Phillips calling the
> Frankfurt a fool and to stay out,

There's no record of that message anywhere. However, I'll look up the exact
time of the "What's up, old man" message and post it here later. (I'm
leaving for work in a few minutes.)

> In fact, at 12:26 to 12:30 he allegedly
> tells the Frankfurt (in reply to the what is happening message) they collided
> with an iceberg and are sinking, tell your captain (can we say whitewash).
> That appears to be the last time the two spoke.

Refer to my Commutator article for a more complete account of the wireless
exchanges between Frankfurt and Titanic. As I said, Bride was unaware of some
of the things Phillips was receiving.

Candidly, the timeline of wireless messages in the British
> Enquiry looks shakey.

It's just incomplete, that's all.

Got to run.

All my best,

George

[10376...@compuserve.com]

Bill Lambrukos wrote:

> > Interestingly, I can find no
> > reference in the British Enquiry wireless timeline to Phillips calling the
> > Frankfurt a fool and to stay out,

I wrote:

> There's no record of that message anywhere. However, I'll look up the exact
> time of the "What's up, old man" message and post it here later. (I'm
> leaving for work in a few minutes.)

Well, I'm back, and my earlier comment about "memory being fallible" applies
to myself as well. :-)

There is indeed a record of the above exchange, although it isn't spelled out
in so many words. At 11:58 pm (NY Time) the Ypiranga overheard Frankfurt
calling the Titanic. At midnight Titanic's operator told Frankfurt's
operator to "stdbi - stdbi - stdbi!"

That's what I get for hurriedly posting messages at 4 am before I leave for
work. :-)

[Eric Smith]

10376...@compuserve.com writes:

>Bill Lambrukos wrote:

>>>Interestingly, I can find no
>>>reference in the British Enquiry wireless timeline to Phillips calling the
>>>Frankfurt a fool and to stay out,

>I wrote:

>>There's no record of that message anywhere. However, I'll look up the exact
>>time of the "What's up, old man" message and post it here later. (I'm
>>leaving for work in a few minutes.)

>Well, I'm back, and my earlier comment about "memory being fallible" applies
>to myself as well. :-)

>There is indeed a record of the above exchange, although it isn't spelled out
>in so many words. At 11:58 pm (NY Time) the Ypiranga overheard Frankfurt
>calling the Titanic. At midnight Titanic's operator told Frankfurt's
>operator to "stdbi - stdbi - stdbi!"

>That's what I get for hurriedly posting messages at 4 am before I leave for
>work. :-)

As a comment that partially applies to this but is also of general concern,
I've been thinking about this issue of the timing of events lately.
According to the Senate final report, there was one hour, 33 minutes
difference between New York time and the Titanic's ship time - the collison
occurred at 11:46 ship's time, 10:13 NY time; the sinking at 2:20 ship's
time, 12:47 NY time. (Which would have put the Frankfurt's message at
1:31, Titanic's ship's time.)

What I'm wondering is, did every ship have its own time reckoning? In which
case, it must make working out the general timing of events horribly
complex, especially if it is unclear as to which ship's time is being
referred to.

[WLambrukos]

>Yes I have. :) Did Phillips think the Frankfurt was closer? Maybe at
>first, but apparently not later.<<

Yes, however, Bride also notes that the Titanic NEVER knew Frankfurts position.
Phillips had said he thought the Frankfurt was closer based on the strength of
the signgal and even when Smith told them the Carpathia was 58 miles away, if
the position of the Frankfurt was not known there would have been no fact
based data to cause Phillips to change his mind. The British Enquiry
indicates the Frankfurt radioed her position, but there is nothing to indicate
Titanic got it. The Enquiry also states when Frankfurt asked "what is the
matter" Titanic replied "we hit a berg and are sinking, tell captain", which we
know did not happen !* They thought the Carpathia was the best thing going
because she was reponding favorably (and in my opinion was a British ship)
while Phillips thought the Frankfurt operator was a fool and told,
specifically, to stay out !

>He doesn't
>explain how they knew that, but it can't be ruled out that they had
>something on which to base a conclusion that the Frankfurt could not
>help. <<

The lack of evidence does not allow for the drawing of any conclusion. Again,
Bride specifically states they did NOT know the Frankfurts position, right up
until the end. I submit there is a lack of evidence because Phillips was
being arrongant.

> Why else would they blow him off? It wouldn't make any sense,
>if there was any possibility of help from the Frankfurt.<<

You got it !!! That's why Phillips was irresponsable ! Is it any less stupid
then proceeding into an area of reported ice near full speed at night ?

Again, Bride's testimony is Bride's testimony. The one "fact" we have is what
he said, what reason is there to not believe it?

* quotes are not exact.
Bill

[10376...@compuserve.com]

Eric Smith wrote:

> What I'm wondering is, did every ship have its own time reckoning? In which
> case, it must make working out the general timing of events horribly
> complex, especially if it is unclear as to which ship's time is being
> referred to.

Hi, Eric!

In spades!!! Shipboard wireless operators kept their records using either NY
or Greenwich time (depending on which "half" of the Atlantic their ship was
currently positioned on.) The ships themselves, however, kept "local" time
which reflected the ship's longitude of the previous noon. It certainly does
complicate matters when captains of various ships refer to ship's time when
talking about various events, since -- in most cases -- we have no idea where
the ship in question had been the previous noon (which means we have no idea
how ship's time compared to New York time.)

[WLambrukos]

>True, but he said *considerably over* twenty minutes - it was Smith who, for
>the sake of convenience, reduced it to "twenty minutes."<<

Bride didn't grab the 20 minutes out of thin air, and to try and now pin it
on Smith (particularly when the exact quote shows it was Bride who mentioned
the 20 minutes) is weak. OJ's lawyers may have tried that (and it worked
with the jury), but the rest of us saw through it. Notice, Bride didnt'
correct Smith, didn't question Smith, and knew Smith was parroting back data
provided by him !

>Perhaps, perhaps not. Even Walter Lord said that survivors' perception of
>the passage of time was distorted. (Speaking of Walter, review ANTR and see
>when Walter says the "Shut up, you fool" message occurred.)<<

Well, I'm not sure the fact that Lord says this really means anything. As to
reading what Lord said, why would Lord know better then Bride ?!? Heck, I
could point out the British Enquiry shows the first call for help went out at
12:15 AM (Lord does too, if you care) and the "what is the matter" message
from the Frankfurt came at 12:26 AM!!! That's 11 minutes, never mind 20
minutes or more !!

>Memory is fallible. I'd say the benefit of the doubt should be given to
>written records that were recorded while the disaster was actually taking
>place (i.e. the original Marconi P.V.s of the ships that were in
>communication with the Titanic.)<<

OK, I refer you to the last reply. It was 11 minutes then.

>You'll find that Frankfurt did indeed send
>her position to the Titanic, and that her "What's up, old man" message was
>sent "considerably longer than twenty minutes later."<<

Position allegedly sent at 12:38 AM, 23 minutes after the first wireless sent
for help ! The notation is the Mount Temple hears this being sent, it is not
noted that the Titanic received it. Again, at the Enquiry Bride indicates
the Titanic NEVER knew the Frankfurt's position. He specifically says they
were unable to tell Smith it's position. If they had its position, why would
they not tell Smith?

As noted above, "what is wrong with you" (not what's up old man) was sent at
12:26. That is the quote where Phillips, according to Bride, called him a
fool.

The times above are all Titanic time from the British Enquiry.
If memory is fallible the timeline of wireless messages is more damning.

>That's what I said earlier. Bride's account is based on incomplete
>information.<<

Bride was relaying what Phillips told him. It does not appear to be
incomplete to the relevent issues at all.

>There's no record of that message anywhere. However, I'll look up the exact
>time of the "What's up, old man" message and post it here later. (I'm
>leaving for work in a few minutes.)<<

Again, Bride says the reply was to "what's wrong with you", that message is
recorded as being sent at 12:26

The danger in relying completely on the record of sent messages is we know
messages were sent saying the ship was safe, the people were safe, the ship was
being towed, and no one could ever determine who sent these. On the other
hand, we have a reliable witness who is very clear in his testimony. I haven't
read anything to discredit that testimony yet.

And let's not forget the real purpose of my post. Phillips told Bride he
thought the Frankfurt was the closer of the two boats, then told the Frankfurt
to, basically, get lost because he got mad at the operator !!! Irresponsable,
NO MATTER WHAT !

I really am open on this issue, I've seen too many "facts" about the Titanic
proven to be untrue in my many years reading about her. But I've also seen
these ideas change because someone forced the other guy to really defend his
position, and then ultimately question it. It's like your idea of ice warnings
prior to hitting the berg. Right now, I bet most people don't buy into that,
but obviously you think it is true and you keep pushing on it (in your book) to
try to make other people think about it. I think that's good. So let's both
keep pushing, maybe we'll move the envelope of understanding !

Bill
>
>

[WLambrukos]

>There is indeed a record of the above exchange, although it isn't spelled out
>in so many words. At 11:58 pm (NY Time) the Ypiranga overheard Frankfurt
>calling the Titanic. At midnight Titanic's operator told Frankfurt's
>operator to "stdbi - stdbi - stdbi!<<

************************
11:58 NY time is 1:48 Titanic time.
12:00 NY time is 2:00 Titanic time
*******************************
At 1:45 th Carpathia hear it's last message from Titanic, "Engine room full up
to boilers".
At 1:47 the Caronia hears Titanic, but cannot understand.
At 1:48 Asian hears Titanic, but no reply to Asian.
1:50 Caronia hears Frankfurt trying to contact Titanic, no answer.
Between 2:00 and 2:17 the Virginian hears faint/partial calls from Titanic.
****British Enquiry*****

Interesting that during the timeframe you note there is nothing noted and no
one is replying to Titanic. Also strange that Frankfurt could be communicating
so well when other can't.

Out of curiousity, what source are you using for wireless messages?

Seems a key issue here is that Bride indicates the standby message was in
direct response to "what is the matter with you", while you are reviewing
"what's up old man". Gonna have to check other sources on this.

Thanks

Bill

[WLambrukos]

>What I'm wondering is, did every ship have its own time reckoning? In which
>case, it must make working out the general timing of events horribly
>complex, especially if it is unclear as to which ship's time is being
>referred to.<<

Each ship would be on its own time. However (assuming it is correct), the
report of the British Enquiry notes all the wireless times in NY time and
Titanic time (they did the conversion for us)., That is what I am working
from.

Bill
>
>

[WLambrukos]

>11:58 NY time is 1:48 Titanic time.
>12:00 NY time is 2:00 Titanic time<<
> ***********************

Oops ! 11:58 NY time is 1:48 Titanic time
12:00 NY time is 1:50 Titanic time

Sorry

Bill

[10376...@compuserve.com]

I wrote:
>
> >There is indeed a record of the above exchange, although it isn't spelled out
> >in so many words. At 11:58 pm (NY Time) the Ypiranga overheard Frankfurt
> >calling the Titanic. At midnight Titanic's operator told Frankfurt's
> >operator to "stdbi - stdbi - stdbi!<<

Bill Lambrukos wrote:

> Interesting that during the timeframe you note there is nothing noted and no
> one is replying to Titanic. Also strange that Frankfurt could be communicating
> so well when other can't.

Hi, Bill!

As I said before, the summary of wireless messages that you're using as a
reference is incomplete (*woefully* incomplete.) Also, if you'd refer to my
Commutator article, you'd see that Frankfurt *wasn't* communicating well with
the Titanic at that point. In fact, like many other ships, Frankfurt
couldn't hear Titanic's transmissions at all -- that's the reason he asked
"What's up, old man?" Titanic, on the other hand, *could* hear the
Frankfurt's transmissions and thought operator Zippel was an idiot for
sending a message like that.

> Out of curiousity, what source are you using for wireless messages?

I'm using photocopies of the original, handwritten Marconi wireless P.V.s
that I obtained during a research trip to the Marconi archive at Chelmsford.
I'm also referring to testimony given at the British Inquiry.

> Seems a key issue here is that Bride indicates the standby message was in
> direct response to "what is the matter with you", while you are reviewing
> "what's up old man". Gonna have to check other sources on this.

I was responding to what I perceived as your belief that Titanic rebuffed
Frankfurt roughly twenty minutes after their initial wireless exchange. As
I've said, this rebuff did not take place until very late in the game.

The wireless exchange that you're referring to in the above paragraph was as
follows:

12:20 am (Titanic time): Frankfurt decided to call up the Titanic and did
so. Titanic sent Frankfurt his own position and continued:

Titanic: Go and get your position.

Frankfurt: OK. Stand by.

(Note: Frankfurt had not received Titanic's initial CQD; at this point
operator Zippel did not know why Titanic wanted to know Frankfurt's
position.)

At 12:36 am Frankfurt sent Titanic his position, and Titanic asked:

Titanic: Are you coming to our assistance?

Frankfurt: What is the matter with U?

Titanic: We have collision with iceberg; sinking; please tell captain to come.

Frankfurt: OK. Will tell bridge right away.

Titanic: OK. Yes, quick.

The above exchange was recorded by the Mt. Temple's operator. (Please refer
to the British investigation, questions 9467-9470.) You'll notice that
Harold Bride never knew about much of this exchange -- because Phillips never
told him about it.

Bride undoubtedly did his best to tell the inquiries what he knew, but much
of his info was inaccurate without his realizing it.

[10376...@compuserve.com]

In article <199803202349...@ladder03.news.aol.com>,
wlamb...@aol.com (WLambrukos) wrote:

> Yes, however, Bride also notes that the Titanic NEVER knew Frankfurts position.

The British Enquiry
> indicates the Frankfurt radioed her position, but there is nothing to indicate
> Titanic got it.

Hi, Bill!

A more accurate statement would be that *Bride* never knew Frankfurt's
position. As my other message shows, Phillips *did* receive Frankfurt's
position, since Phillips then asked Zippel if Frankfurt was coming to
Titanic's assistance.

>The Enquiry also states when Frankfurt asked "what is the
> matter" Titanic replied "we hit a berg and are sinking, tell captain", which we
> know did not happen !*

How can you possibly justify this statement when Mt. Temple's operator
testified that it *did* happen (and even quoted the exchange verbatim from
his notes)?

> Again, Bride's testimony is Bride's testimony. The one "fact" we have is what
> he said, what reason is there to not believe it?

Because there is better documentation for the wireless messages that were
exchanged with Titanic that night.

[WLambrukos]

>As I said before, the summary of wireless messages that you're using as a
>reference is incomplete (*woefully* incomplete.) <<

Starting to look that way, and I'm startging to get real irritated with these
Brits and their official Enquiry ! :-)

>At 12:36 am Frankfurt sent Titanic his position, and Titanic asked:
>
>Titanic: Are you coming to our assistance?
>
>Frankfurt: What is the matter with U?
>
>Titanic: We have collision with iceberg; sinking; please tell captain to
come<<

See, According to the officeal Enquiry report, at 12:26 the Frankfurt asks
what is the matter with you and the Titanic says we hit a berg, tell your
captain.

at 12:38 the Mount Temple hears the Frankfurt radio her position to the Titanic
(but there is no notation of acknowledgement or receipt by the Titanic).

>(Please refer
>to the British investigation, questions 9467-9470.) You'll notice that
>Harold Bride never knew about much of this exchange -- because Phillips never
>told him about it.<<

Unfortunently, I have yet to be able to get the complete transcripts of the
British Enquiry (only have the report), but am trying to. Are you aware of
any place where they can be purchased?

>Bride undoubtedly did his best to tell the inquiries what he knew, but much
>of his info was inaccurate without his realizing it.<<

Keep pushing, I'm starting to move, but am still having trouble making sense of
Bride's testimony. Something still doesn't add up here, unless we downgrade
"he did his best" to "he really has an imagination", which would blow Lord's
"he was a trained listener" and "Autumn" out of the water with me ! : -)

Bill
>
>

[WLambrukos]

>A more accurate statement would be that *Bride* never knew Frankfurt's
>position. As my other message shows, Phillips *did* receive Frankfurt's
>position, since Phillips then asked Zippel if Frankfurt was coming to
>Titanic's assistance<<

No record of this in the British Enquiry record/timeline of wireless messages.
(If true, supports your contention that it is truly an incomplete document).

>How can you possibly justify this statement when Mt. Temple's operator
>testified that it *did* happen (and even quoted the exchange verbatim from
>his notes)?<<

Good point. I justified it because the man in the room with Phillips
said it didn't happen. One would think Bride would not make such a statement if
not true. Maybe the guy who sent those "Titanic safe, being towed" messages
sent it ! :-)

[Butler1918]

>Keep pushing, I'm starting to move, but am still having trouble making sense
>of
>Bride's testimony. Something still doesn't add up here, unless we downgrade
>"he did his best" to "he really has an imagination", which would blow Lord's
>"he was a trained listener" and "Autumn" out of the water with me ! : -)
>
>Bill
>>
>>

Oops! Careful Bill or Eric Seright-Payne in the you know what will round on
you for desecrating the Holy Writ! Sorry I haven't been able to keep up on
this string as well as I should like, but George is doing a bang-up job. One
comment I'd like to introduce at this point is directly relevant to your llast
reply to George. Part of my arguement against any song, tune, melody, hymn,
piece of music what soever named "Autumn" in any form has been that the only
person who ever mentioned that name was Bride. Now Mr.Lord claims that Bride
was intelligent, not really an arguablepoint, and a trained observer which is
not a really well-supported statement. There are inconsistencies between
Bride's account to the New York Times, his testimony before the Senate Inquiry
and the his testimony before the British Inquiry. Any good lawyer wil tell you
that such inconsistencies are normal, and often are indicative of a witnesses
veracity. At the same time, though, Bride was apparently struggling iwht
coming to grips with his memories of the night's events. Not in the sense that
he was trying to decide what his story was, but rather with the trauma he had
gone through. If the story told the NY Times was correct, Bride and Phillips
may well have killed that stoke, and no doubt that weighed very heavily on
20-year old Bride's mind. Don't forget that Bride left not oly the sea but
the Marconi company as well less than a year after the disaster. When my
friend David Norris tracked down Bride and found he'd died in a Glasgow
hospital in 1956, he also foundout that Bride had concealed his past so
successfully that only his immediate family--i.e. wife and children--knew that
he was the same Harold Bride that was on the Titanic. And there is even some
question that they knew it before his death.

The point of this is that the mental turmoil that Bride was clearly undergoing
was probably enough to make his memories and recollections somewhat unreliable.
This isn't surprising--I remember having 20 year old kids under me who would
perform the most astonishing feats in the most amazing circumstances, but never
remember a thing about it afterward This doesn't make Bride any less of a hero
or any less admirable, it just means that we have to take him, like Charles
Joughin with a grain of salt. Actually I wish I could say that I know I could
have acted and reacted as well as Bride did if I were in his shoes.

I'll have that address for you Monday AM.

Daniel Allen Butler

[10376...@compuserve.com]

I wrote:

> >As I said before, the summary of wireless messages that you're using as a
> >reference is incomplete (*woefully* incomplete.) <<
>
> Starting to look that way, and I'm startging to get real irritated with these
> Brits and their official Enquiry ! :-)

The incompleteness of the summary wasn't due to carelessness -- it was just
the result of someone's *judging* which messages were worthy of inclusion in
the summary (as well as the rush of doing so in the face of a publishing
deadline; the lifeboat launch sequence as compiled by the British Inquiry
contains several serious inaccuracies, too.) Also, several Marconi time
discrepancies are due to the fact that the clocks being used by the various
shipboard Marconi operators were not keeping *identical* time, as well as the
habit of several operators of updating their P.V.s at five minute intervals
instead of recording the *exact* time each message was received.

> See, According to the officeal Enquiry report, at 12:26 the Frankfurt asks
> what is the matter with you and the Titanic says we hit a berg, tell your
> captain.

The "12:26" time entry in the summary was a misprint. Take a look at the
times of the messages preceding the "12:26" entry; they say 12:27 and 12:30.
The entry you're referring to *should* have said 12:36.

> Unfortunently, I have yet to be able to get the complete transcripts of the
> British Enquiry (only have the report), but am trying to. Are you aware of
> any place where they can be purchased?

I obtained mine in the 1970s from:

The Library of Congress
Photoduplication Service
10 First St. S.E.
Washington, D.C. 20540

The cost then was (as I recall) around $130.00, but the price may well have
gone up since then.

> am still having trouble making sense of
> Bride's testimony. Something still doesn't add up here, unless we downgrade
> "he did his best" to "he really has an imagination", which would blow Lord's
> "he was a trained listener" and "Autumn" out of the water with me ! : -)

It is indeed difficult to reconcile all of Bride's different accounts. As
for "Autumn," the New York Times reporter was the *only* source for this
song. Unfortunately, newspaper reporters are notorious for misquoting people
-- that's why the Autumn account is open to question. Similarly, the
accounts of "early iceberg sightings" that appeared in various newspapers are
not absolutely foolproof, either. We can take note of such reports and can
give them some measure of credence if they are numerous enough and seem to
corroborate each other, but we can never say "This actually took place" --
there's always the nagging possibility that the reporter who recorded the
interview "messed up" somewhere along the line.

[Eric Smith]

wlamb...@aol.com (WLambrukos) writes:

>>As I said before, the summary of wireless messages that you're using as a
>>reference is incomplete (*woefully* incomplete.)

>Starting to look that way, and I'm startging to get real irritated with these
>Brits and their official Enquiry ! :-)

I've begun to lose track of all the details in this particular discussion,
but here is one page you may want to have a look at:

http://users.netinfo.com.au/anars/#trd

According to the information on this page, at 12:26 Titanic tells Frankfurt
"We have collision with iceberg. Sinking. Please tell Captain to come,"
then at 12:38 Mount Temple hears Frankfurt give Titanic her position.
At 1:35 and again at 1:45 Mount Temple hears Frankfurt calling Titanic,
no reply. At 1:50 Caronia hears Frankfurt working to Titanic, giving
position as 172 miles from point of first distress call.

[10376...@compuserve.com]

In article <ericsEq...@netcom.com>,
er...@netcom.remove.this.com (Eric Smith) wrote:

> I've begun to lose track of all the details in this particular discussion,
> but here is one page you may want to have a look at:
>
> http://users.netinfo.com.au/anars/#trd
>
> According to the information on this page, at 12:26 Titanic tells Frankfurt
> "We have collision with iceberg. Sinking. Please tell Captain to come,"

Hi, Eric!

The above website's info was taken from the British wireless summary we've
been talking about, and it perpetuates the typo in question. The above
message from the Frankfurt occurred at 12:36 am. (The Ypiranga's operator
overheard the message as well.)

[WLambrukos]

>According to the information on this page, at 12:26 Titanic tells Frankfurt
>"We have collision with iceberg. Sinking. Please tell Captain to come,"

>then at 12:38 Mount Temple hears Frankfurt give Titanic her position.
>At 1:35 and again at 1:45 Mount Temple hears Frankfurt calling Titanic,
>no reply. At 1:50 Caronia hears Frankfurt working to Titanic, giving
>position as 172 miles from point of first distress call.<<

This is consistent with the data I have from the British Enquiry, but George
indicates it is not complete and may have misprints.

Thanks for responding.

Bill

[WLambrukos]

>This doesn't make Bride any less of a hero
>or any less admirable, it just means that we have to take him, like Charles
>Joughin with a grain of salt. Actually I wish I could say that I know I
>could
>have acted and reacted as well as Bride did if I were in his shoes<<

As good as a wrap-up as it gets !

Bill.
>
>

[Fred]

In article <199803211630...@ladder01.news.aol.com>,
wlamb...@aol.com says...

Some of the exchange between Philips and the Frankfort was due to
MGY used Marconi equipment and the Frankfort used Telefunken. There
was a great rivalry between companies and Marconi operators resisted
communicating with non-Marconi wireless stations. This becomes clear
in the book by Wade.
Could this attitude been partly responsible for Philips to prefer
Carpathia because it was a Marconi set up, also?
Thank you
73s
Fred
amateur radio WAØPBL

[10376...@compuserve.com]

In article <35192...@news.ai.com>,
leh...@ideasign.com (Fred) wrote:

> Some of the exchange between Philips and the Frankfort was due to
> MGY used Marconi equipment and the Frankfort used Telefunken. There
> was a great rivalry between companies and Marconi operators resisted
> communicating with non-Marconi wireless stations. This becomes clear
> in the book by Wade.

Hi, Fred!

Although there was indeed a rivalry between Telefunken and Marconi, records
in the Marconi Archive make it clear that Phillips and the Frankfurt's
operator communicated a lot more frequently than is generally believed. Wynn
Wade didn't have access to this Marconi material when he wrote his book.

All my best,

George Behe

[gle...@ctaz.com]

> Some of the exchange between Philips and the Frankfort was due to
> MGY used Marconi equipment and the Frankfort used Telefunken. There
> was a great rivalry between companies and Marconi operators resisted
> communicating with non-Marconi wireless stations. This becomes clear
> in the book by Wade.

> Could this attitude been partly responsible for Philips to prefer
> Carpathia because it was a Marconi set up, also?
> Thank you
> 73s
> Fred
> amateur radio WAØPBL

I don't think that they refused to communicate
with ships using Telefunken. I think that they
refused to use Telefunken-equipped vessels as
RELAYS for their messages.

73,
Glenn S. -- AB7VO

[Rod Young]

gle...@ctaz.com wrote:

>
> I don't think that they refused to communicate
> with ships using Telefunken. I think that they
> refused to use Telefunken-equipped vessels as
> RELAYS for their messages.
>
> 73,
> Glenn S. -- AB7VO
>

If you were a Marconi operator you wouldn't want to rely on a rival to
relay a paying message. What if the text had 'mistakes' in it? The
commercial traffic should be carried by your company.

73,

Rod K8RYY

[WLambrukos]

>Some of the exchange between Philips and the Frankfort was due to
>MGY used Marconi equipment and the Frankfort used Telefunken. There
>was a great rivalry between companies and Marconi operators resisted
>communicating with non-Marconi wireless stations. This becomes clear
>in the book by Wade.
>Could this attitude been partly responsible for Philips to prefer
>Carpathia because it was a Marconi set up, also?<<

I believe Marconi actually sat on the board of the company that employed the
operator on the Frankfurt. However, I have seen the idea you put forth here
mentioned before by authors.

Bill