Questions about Rockets/Flares
Harbinger
Does anyone know the specs on the rockets/flares? I'm assuming they
were a little bigger than, like, bottle rockets. Who fired them and
from what part of the ship? What interval were they fired? One every
ten minutes or so? Were there any guidelines for doing this?
Rob Kliewer
In one scene of the movie you can see the unlit flares. They look about 2
feet long or so (although I could be mistaken). I can't remember who fired
them, but I believe they were to be fired about every 4-5 minutes.
Harbinger wrote in message <34cf313c...@news.mindspring.com>...
Romeo Arenzana
In article <34cf313c...@news.mindspring.com>,
Harbinger <hang...@area51.com> wrote:
>Does anyone know the specs on the rockets/flares? I'm assuming they
>were a little bigger than, like, bottle rockets. Who fired them and
>from what part of the ship? What interval were they fired? One every
>ten minutes or so? Were there any guidelines for doing this?
If memory serves right from reading _A Night To Remember_, I think
Boxhall lit em up one every 5-6 minutes.
--
Don't use a big word where a diminutive one will suffice.
SwingKidss
A little known fact about the flares I believe is that the Titanic was only
carrying white flares, she carryed no red as she was suppose to.
-Sarra
Robert Dalby
Hi - I'm a newbie to this group, so forgive me if I'm treading on anyones
toes....! ;-)
It seems they weren't actually rockets, but socket signals,(apparently
there's a subtle difference!:-)) which created both a white projectile which
burst into stars and a very loud boom (which annoyed Fifth Officer Lowe who
complained of not being able to think because of the noise). They were
launched by Third Officer Boxhall from the (starboard, I think) Bridge wing
from a socket built into the structure for that purpose.
At the Inquiry Boxhall spoke of lauching a rocket, racing off to help with
the lifeboats and then returning to launch another. He was unable to give
precise details of the interval between launchings.
BTW,Californian saw eight rockets at the time the big "T" was firing them
(the number she fired) but allegedly thought they were company signals.
According to Leslie Reade, the late Titanic scholar who spent a lifetime
studying the "Ship who stood still" (the title of his book), the Californian
and associated matters (including a VERY detailed analysis of the socket
signals) the use of fireworks of one type or another as company signals had
all but died out by 1912.
Many thanks
Rob D
Harbinger wrote in message <34cf313c...@news.mindspring.com>...
Serenleono
hang...@area51.com (Harbinger) scripsit:
>Does anyone know the specs on the rockets/flares? I'm assuming they
>were a little bigger than, like, bottle rockets. Who fired them and
>from what part of the ship? What interval were they fired? One every
>ten minutes or so? Were there any guidelines for doing this?
I don't have a detailed description of the distress rockets used, but
certainly they were considerably larger that bottle rockets and
exploded into white stars (not red, as someone asserted). We do know,
however, that the rockets were fired by Fourth Officer Boxhall
[spelled Boxall in the enquiry records] from a socket near No. 1
emergency boat on the Boat deck, starboard side near the bridge.
According to testimony, the firing of rockets began at about 12.45 am,
when the No. 7 boat was lowered, and continued until about 1.45 am, at
which time Mr Boxhall himself left the ship. I don't know at what
precise intervals he shot off the signals, but he himself said about
eight rockets in all were fired in one hour's time, making the
interval about one every seven and a half minutes, if he fired them at
regular intervals. [Source: Boxall's testimony to British enquiry,
15394.]
According to Walter Lord's ANTR, however, 2d Officer Stone and
Apprentice Gibson, aboard the *Californian*, counted five rockets by
12.55 am. After trying to signal with his Morse lamp, Gibson spotted
a sixth rocket at precisely 1.00 am.
I couldn't corroborate that by reading the testimony given before the
British enquiry. According to that source, Gibson first saw
*Titanic's* lights at about 12.20 am, a donkey man named Gill saw two
rockets fired at about half-past midnight, and Mr Stone reported to
his captain at 1.10 am that he'd seen five white rockets. Three more
rockets were seen after that, followed by a final one at 1.40.
[Gibson, 7424; Gill, 18156; Stone, 7870.]
*Titanic* had on board distress signals of the following type:
36 socket signals
12 ordinary rockets
2 Manwell Holmes deck flares
12 blue lights
6 lifebouy lights
(Obviously, if Boxhall fired only eight rockets, it was *not* because
he ran out of rockets, but rather because he ran out of time. Even
after he left *Titanic*, however, the same officer continued signaling
with green flares from Boat 2.)
Seren
Serenleono
swing...@aol.com (SwingKidss) scripsit:
>A little known fact about the flares I believe is that the Titanic was only
>carrying white flares, she carryed no red as she was suppose to.
It wasn't until almost ten years after World War II ended (1954 to be
precise) that red was formally adopted as the agreed-upon colour for
distress rockets, Sarra. According to the 1857 International Code of
Signals, distress rockets could be of any colour, and frequently were
white, so this was not a mistake or oversight by the White Star
employees.
Seren
SwingKidss
Thats interesting, Seren. If any color could be used as distress, then why did
the C alifornian pass off the signals as basically nothing? Also, the majority
of the books I have read, and at least one Titanic movie that I am aware of,
also point out the fact that she was suppose to be carrying red flares. Could
they all be wrong? I don't know. It's just what I have read :)
>It wasn't until almost ten years after World War II ended (1954 to be
>precise) that red was formally adopted as the agreed-upon colour for
>distress rockets, Sarra. According to the 1857 International Code of
>Signals, distress rockets could be of any colour, and frequently were
>white, so this was not a mistake or oversight by the White Star
>employees.
>
>Seren
-Sarra
Serenleono
swing...@aol.com (SwingKidss) scripsit:
>If any color could be used as distress, then why did
>the Californian pass off the signals as basically nothing?
My understanding was that rockets were used by several companies,
particularly the White Star Line, for conveying company signals. I
frankly have never been able to justify the inactivity of
*Californian*'s captain, but it may be that he believed the flashes
were recognition signals.
>Also, the majority of the books I have read, and at least one
>Titanic movie that I am aware of, also point out the fact that
>she was suppose to be carrying red flares. Could
>they all be wrong? I don't know. It's just what I have read :)
All I can answer is that my source, THE OXFORD COMPANION TO SHIPS AND
THE SEA, states that red rocket-flares were not mandated until the
1950s. If I discover this is incorrect, I'll be the first to admit it
and post a correction.
But white was not the only colour used. Boxhall lit green flares or
shot off green rockets from Boat 2 after TITANIC sank.
Seren
gle...@ctaz.com
>
> >A little known fact about the flares I believe is that the Titanic was only
> >carrying white flares, she carryed no red as she was suppose to.
At that time white was the commonly accepted color
for a distress signal-- with the stipulation that it
explode into a "starburst" at the maximum height.
Those that merely fizzled out without a starburst
were "company signals".
When Captain Lord of the Californian was informed
that a ship was firing rockets he asked if there
was "any color in them". He knew that white was a
distress signal, so I can't fathom why he did not
react when he was informed that there was no color
in them.
Glenn
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Dave Gittins
Serenleono <ve...@mindspring.com> wrote in article
<34dfb16f....@news.mindspring.com>...
> swing...@aol.com (SwingKidss) scripsit:
>
> >If any color could be used as distress, then why did
> >the Californian pass off the signals as basically nothing?
>
> My understanding was that rockets were used by several companies,
> particularly the White Star Line, for conveying company signals. I
> frankly have never been able to justify the inactivity of
> *Californian*'s captain, but it may be that he believed the flashes
> were recognition signals.
>
> >Also, the majority of the books I have read, and at least one
> >Titanic movie that I am aware of, also point out the fact that
> >she was suppose to be carrying red flares. Could
> >they all be wrong? I don't know. It's just what I have read :)
You have to distinguish between rockets and other pyrotechnics. In 1912
the distress signal was rockets throwing stars of any colour, fired at
regular intervals. Identification signals used large Roman candles fired
in small groups. "Titanic"s identification was two green Roman candles.
Boxall was burning green flares to show his position, in no particular
pattern.
Dave Gittins
Andrew and Rebecca Hall
Dave Gittins wrote:
> You have to distinguish between rockets and other pyrotechnics. In 1912
> the distress signal was rockets throwing stars of any colour, fired at
> regular intervals.
Correct -- and thus, the rockets fired by Titanic that night were bona fide
distress signals, "by-the-book." The whole issue of "flares" didn't come up
in connection with the Californian incident until after the investigations,
when Stanley Lord described them as such in a letter attempting to justify
his actions. Of course, he never actaully *saw* any of this, sacked out on
the chart room settee. . . .
-------------> Andy Hall
VRM
White stars went out last. Presumably at the last minute in a final
desperate attempt and the others were to call attention. According to one
site the Californian did not bother to tell the Cpt because so many other
boats had already messaged that they were on the way and the Californian
crew members thought the poor Titanic was a draft ship going in.
Scott Amspoker
"VRM" <kory...@email.msn.com> wrote:
And how would they know that other ships were on their way if their radio was
turned off? (They heard about it the following morning.) Which site is
promoting such nonsense?
Scott Amspoker |
sc...@basis.com | Expressed opinions are mine
http://www.rt66.com/sda | and not those of my employer.
Peter Klumbach
Hi everybody,
in all the illustrations I've ever seen (and the Cameron movie too)
those emergency signals look exactly like New Years fireworks.
Wouldn't they rather have used that kind of flare you see in war
movies all the time - a superbright slow-burning light with a little
parachute attached to it so it keeps hanging in the air for about 15
to 20 seconds instead of just exploding in a shower of sparks?
P.
Maura and Matthew Greig
I believe people have quoted the regulations on distress signals in 1912
and they were required to explode in a shower of sparks. Anyone have
the source handy?
Maura
--
Matthew and Maura Greig <<magik...@pacbell.net>>
Remove SPAM before replying
Rene Bostelaar
Peter Klumbach (pklu...@t-online.de) writes:
> Hi everybody,
>
> in all the illustrations I've ever seen (and the Cameron movie too)
> those emergency signals look exactly like New Years fireworks.
> Wouldn't they rather have used that kind of flare you see in war
> movies all the time - a superbright slow-burning light with a little
> parachute attached to it so it keeps hanging in the air for about 15
> to 20 seconds instead of just exploding in a shower of sparks?
Good idea, but those flares wern't around 'till the second world war. The
flares they had were bright and easily visable, and on the sea it only
takes a little flash on the horizon to get your attention: you don't have
the war-time explosions, hills, trees, smoke, guns and airplanes to
distract you..
-Ren
--
| ad888a "888888b, d8b "888b ,888" | So tangle minded, then so becalmed
| `"Yaa88a 888ad8P'dPaaY8b 88čY88P888 | It's all so subway-grim, and then
| a, Y88 888 dP Y8b 88 YP 888 | it's gone. --Gord Downie
| `"8ad8P'd888b d88b d888bd88b d888b | Ren Bostelaar (Spam_Man on IRC)
DBill...@fake-isp.com
Maura and Matthew Greig <magik...@pacbell.net> wrote:
>I believe people have quoted the regulations on distress signals in 1912
>and they were required to explode in a shower of sparks. Anyone have
>the source handy?
The law at the time regarding distress signals was as follows:
* * * * *
SIGNALS OF DISTRESS
When a vessel is in distress and requires assistance from other
vessels or the shore, the following shall be the signals to be used by
her, either together or separately:
AT NIGHT
1. A gun or other explosive signal fired at intervals of about a
minute;
2. Flames on the vessel (as from a burning tar barrel, oil barrel,
etc.);
3. Rockets or shells, throwing stars of any colour or description,
used one at a time at short intervals;
4. A continuous sounding with any fog-signal apparatus.
[Note that no. 3 states "any color or description." Elsewhere the
laws also specified that company signals were to be used only near the
shore, and in case anyone found that confusing, the preface to the law
book also stated:]
"If these signals are used in any other place, for any other purpose
than named, they may be signals of distress, and should be answered
accordingly..."
In other words, if you are not sure whether it's a company signal or
distress signal, you are to respond as if it is a distress signal.
* * * * *
I hope that answers your question.
- Dave Billnitzer
hike...@earthlink.net
http://home.earthlink.net/~hiker1217/titanic.html
TITANIC and the CALIFORNIAN
address removed from the header to thwart spamming
DBill...@fake-isp.com
As an afterthought to my post about the laws in place in 1912
regarding the rockets, I thought some of you might find this
interesting also (regarding company signals, vs distress rockets)
White Star Line's designated company signal was:
"Green pyrotechnic light, followed by rocket throwing 2 green stars,
rocket being followed by another green pyrotechnic light (for NY mail
& passenger steamers, calling at Queenstown homewards).
(General use - ditto) Two green pyrotechnic lights, exhibited
simultaneously."
Boxhall was firing green flares from Boat 2, so he was probably using
some form of the designated company colors from there.
Also, the White Star Line's assigned display is a fair example of the
company signals in place at the time, according to a list that Leslie
Reade's book provides. They were rather complicated, and followed
certain prescribed sequences of colors, displays and shapes. For
example, here is Cunard's company signal:
"1. A blue light and two rockets bursting into golden stars, and fired
in quick succession.
2. A blue light and two Roman candles, each throwing out six blue
balls to a height not exceeding 150 feet and fired in quick
succession."
and another example, the Allan Line:
"1. Three rockets - blue, white, red - for mail steamers from
Montreal, St John, NB, & to Liverpool.
2. Three blue lights in a triangle for steamers bound to Glasgow
direct.
3. Three blue lights in a triangle followed by a blue light for
steamers from New York to Glasgow calling at Moville."
There are more, but these give you a fair idea. As you can see,
company signals were pretty complicated affairs, mostly to be used for
identification near the shore. And as Lightoller stated at the
British Inquiry, not like distress signals at all:
14169 Are there signals of a definite kind and appearance that are
known as distress signals? - Yes, there is no ship allowed on the
high seas to fire a rocket or anything resembling a rocket unless she
requires assistance.
14170 If you had seen these signals like those sent up, from another
ship, would you have known for certain what they were? - I have seen
them and known immediately.
14171 We have heard something about company’s signals. Do they
resemble these at all? - In no way, to my knowledge.
14172 Would you have any difficulty in distinguishing one from the
other? - I never have had.
* * * * *
I hope you found that interesting.
Serenleono
DBill...@fake-isp.com scripsit:
>SIGNALS OF DISTRESS
>
>When a vessel is in distress and requires assistance from other
>vessels or the shore, the following shall be the signals to be used by
>her, either together or separately:
[rest of entry here omitted]
I don't doubt a word of it, but since you're obviously quoting from a
manual or other resource, it would be à propos to include a title and
author citation. Thanks.
Seren
DBill...@fake-isp.com
Hi Seren, you wrote:
Sorry, I should have thought of that.
These are from Article 31, in the International Rules of the Road.
They are quoted in the US Senate's "Report on the Investigation into
Loss of S.S. Titanic - S. Res. 283."
Also, these same laws were referred to at the British Inquiry, while
Scanlan was interrogating CA officer Herbert Stone, when he asked:
8025. Is not part of the subjects of examination the signals of
distress and the signals to be made by ships wanting a pilot ? -Yes,
the articles.
8026. That is one of the subjects in which you are supposed by the
Board of Trade to be qualified before you get the certificate? - Yes.
8027. I suppose before you sat for that examination. you read
something about signals ? - I learned them.
8028. Do you mean to tell his Lordship that you did not know that the
throwing up of "rocket, or shells, throwing stars of any color or
description fired one at a time at short intervals." is the proper
method for signaling distress at night ? - Yes, that is the way it is
always done as far as I know.
8029. And you knew that perfectly well on the night of the 14th of
April ? - Yes.
ie, in question 8028, Scanlan quotes specfically from the articles.
Leslie Harrison and Leslie Reade both included them in their
respective books "A Titanic Myth" and "The Ship That Stood Still," as
well.
I hope that clears that up.
Serenleono
[in response to citations provided by Dave Billnitzer]
Thank you, good soul. We're all grateful for informative posts like
yours.
Seren
DBill...@fake-isp.com
Hi Seren, you wrote:
My pleasure, glad I could be of help.