What does "Lilliburlero" mean?
pauldanaher
Lesley
pauldanaher <wa...@earthlink.net> wrote in message
news:7llho3$smv$1...@oak.prod.itd.earthlink.net...
> Does anybody know the meaning of the words to "Lilliburlero"?
>
>
>
lillibulero and bullen al-a; were used as a rallying cry for the Irish to
recognize one another in an uprising in 1641. Later Thomas, Lord Wharton
(1640-1715), wrote a set of satirical verses titled Lillibolero regarding
the Irish problems and set them to a melody written by Henry Purcell in
1678. It became popular immediately. After the Stuarts were deposed Lord
Wharton boasted that he had rhymed James out of three kingdoms" with his
tune.
I am sure there are other theories as well.
--
lesley
http://www.contemplator.com
Folk Music of England, Scotland, Ireland, Wales & America
Popular Songs in American History, Francis J. Child Ballads
Turlough O'Carolan and Contemplations on Life
pauldanaher
Lesley <les...@contemplator.com> wrote in message
news:KnBf3.362$D5.8...@news1.epix.net...
tune on BBC World Service and as a comment in one of my school history
textbooks claiming that James II knew his cause was lost when he heard his
troops singing "Lillibulero" around the camp fires. (Of course, the textbook
didn't bother to explain this.) I've always assumed the song was something
to do with William, so its Irish origins take on a truly horrid irony!
Any idea what the words themselves might mean? My father speaks Irish and
doesn't recognise them...
Lesley
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > According to National Music of America and its Origins (1900), the words
> > lillibulero and bullen al-a; were used as a rallying cry for the Irish
to
> > recognize one another in an uprising in 1641. Later Thomas, Lord
Wharton
> > (1640-1715), wrote a set of satirical verses titled Lillibolero
regarding
> > the Irish problems and set them to a melody written by Henry Purcell in
> > 1678. It became popular immediately. After the Stuarts were deposed
Lord
> > Wharton boasted that he had rhymed James out of three kingdoms" with his
> > tune.
> >
> > I am sure there are other theories as well.
> > --
> >lesley
> >
a
> tune on BBC World Service and as a comment in one of my school history
> textbooks claiming that James II knew his cause was lost when he heard his
> troops singing "Lillibulero" around the camp fires. (Of course, the
textbook
> didn't bother to explain this.) I've always assumed the song was something
> to do with William, so its Irish origins take on a truly horrid irony!
> Any idea what the words themselves might mean? My father speaks Irish and
> doesn't recognise them...
>
>
it was a corruption of the Gaelic: " An lili ba leir e, ba linn an la" -
roughly "The lily won the day for us". I am not sure but the lily
apparently has some significance with the Battle of the Boyne? Can anyone
explain that?
Mike Smith
pauldanaher wrote in message <7llho3$smv$1...@oak.prod.itd.earthlink.net>...
>Does anybody know the meaning of the words to "Lilliburlero"?
>
>
remember correctly the opinion of the authors was that it was a song written
by the English satirising the Irish, their politics and their accent (some
things never change!). I would guess that "lillibulero bullen-a-la" is just
the songwriter's idea of the sound of the Irish language.
Lesley
I
> remember correctly the opinion of the authors was that it was a song
written
> by the English satirising the Irish, their politics and their accent (some
> things never change!). I would guess that "lillibulero bullen-a-la" is
just
> the songwriter's idea of the sound of the Irish language.
>
>
post on Digital Tradition said, 'Sources of Irish Traditional Music', 1998,
translates it as: Lilli/ bu le'ir o/, bu linn an la/ - Lilli will be
manifest, the day will be ours. Wm. Lilli or Lilly was a famous astrologer
of the time.
pauldanaher
stephen tweed
<les...@contemplator.com> writes
>Found this - (no specific source named): Irish writer Brendan Behan claimed
>it was a corruption of the Gaelic: " An lili ba leir e, ba linn an la" -
>roughly "The lily won the day for us". I am not sure but the lily
>apparently has some significance with the Battle of the Boyne? Can anyone
>explain that?
Could it be connected with the French Fleur De Lys?
--
The moving finger writes; and, having writ, Moves on:
nor all thy piety nor wit
Shall lure it back to cancel half a line,
Nor all thy tears wash out a word of it.
Lesley
and
> if
> > I
> > > remember correctly the opinion of the authors was that it was a song
> > written
> > > by the English satirising the Irish, their politics and their accent
> (some
> > > things never change!). I would guess that "lillibulero bullen-a-la" is
> > just
> > > the songwriter's idea of the sound of the Irish language.
> > >
> > >
> > There's further confirmation of the mangled gaelic theory. A reply to a
> > post on Digital Tradition said, 'Sources of Irish Traditional Music',
> 1998,
> > translates it as: Lilli/ bu le'ir o/, bu linn an la/ - Lilli will be
> > manifest, the day will be ours. Wm. Lilli or Lilly was a famous
astrologer
> > of the time.
> >
> Does anybody know what Lilly was predicting?
>
the first astrological textbook in English. He predicted the Great Fire of
London - fourteen years before the event. He is evidently still quite
important in astrological circles - there is even a "William Lilly" mail
list!
The only astrologer I am vaguely familiar with is John Dee - who was the
astrologer to Queen Mary and Elizabeth I. He wrote horoscopes and gave
advice to sailors and navigators. He was evidently also asked to predict a
good day for Elizabeth's coronation.
pauldanaher
know if he had any recorded prediction favouring William.
Lesley
> >
> Do you mean there's a "William Lilly" newsgroup? Perhaps those guys would
> know if he had any recorded prediction favouring William.
>
>
I found a website that has some fantastic information on astrology in the
16th and 17th century. It even has the text of a letter Lilly sent Charles
I warning him about his prophecy which predicted Charles would be beheaded
or killed. The William Lilly pages start at:
http://acker.cwrl.utexas.edu/~scoggins/prophesyreformation/politics/index.ht
ml
Evidently Lilly made several prophecies about British politics. However,
since the warning to Charles wasn't published until 1644 (after Marston
Moor - probably not as bold a prediction as it would have been BEFORE the
battle of Marston Moor... ) Therefore it couldn't have been used as a
rallying cry in 1641, but it most certainly could be the reference Wharton
was referring to when he wrote the lyrics in 1678.
Interesting stuff.
pauldanaher
news:bmI2eAAm...@greenpen.demon.co.uk...
losing side. The only way that makes sense is as a mocking comment on the
supposed incompetence or craven nature of the French troops or their
commanders. (As usual, the Irish were on both sides.) As I said, possible -
but not very satisfying.
da...@skyhook.nospam.force9.co.uk
>Do you mean there's a "William Lilly" newsgroup? Perhaps those guys would
>know if he had any recorded prediction favouring William.
>
The "William Lilly" group is actually a mailing list of astrologers
who try to apply 17th century astrological methods today. It's at
They're more interested in astrology than history though.
If "Lillibulero" does actually refer to William Lilly, I think it will
be because he was so famous that his name was a byword for astrologers
in general rather than any specific prediction regarding William. In
fact Lilly was at the height of his influence during the Civil War and
Protectorate. He died in 1681.
pauldanaher
> ----snipped a lot of stuff----
> > >
would
> > know if he had any recorded prediction favouring William.
> >
> >
>
> 16th and 17th century. It even has the text of a letter Lilly sent
Charles
> I warning him about his prophecy which predicted Charles would be beheaded
> or killed. The William Lilly pages start at:
>
>
http://acker.cwrl.utexas.edu/~scoggins/prophesyreformation/politics/index.ht
> ml
>
> Evidently Lilly made several prophecies about British politics. However,
> since the warning to Charles wasn't published until 1644 (after Marston
> Moor - probably not as bold a prediction as it would have been BEFORE the
> battle of Marston Moor... ) Therefore it couldn't have been used as a
> rallying cry in 1641, but it most certainly could be the reference Wharton
> was referring to when he wrote the lyrics in 1678.
>
> Interesting stuff.
> --
>
> lesley
> http://www.contemplator.com
> Folk Music of England, Scotland, Ireland, Wales & America
> Popular Songs in American History, Francis J. Child Ballads
> Turlough O'Carolan and Contemplations on Life
>
why the Irish Williamites should use Lilly's name as a banner UNLESS there
was something more specifically in their favour.
pauldanaher
news:37839a70...@usenet.force9.net...
> "pauldanaher" <wa...@earthlink.net> wrote in message
> <7lpbkt$lg0$1...@fir.prod.itd.earthlink.net>:
>
> >know if he had any recorded prediction favouring William.
> >
>
>
> who try to apply 17th century astrological methods today. It's at
>
> http://www.horary.com
>
> They're more interested in astrology than history though.
>
> If "Lillibulero" does actually refer to William Lilly, I think it will
> be because he was so famous that his name was a byword for astrologers
> in general rather than any specific prediction regarding William. In
> fact Lilly was at the height of his influence during the Civil War and
> Protectorate. He died in 1681.
The Irish have a reputation for oral history, but I don't see Lilly's
relevance for them - rallying cries tend to be fairly specific.
Lesley
> > >Do you mean there's a "William Lilly" newsgroup? Perhaps those guys
would
> > >know if he had any recorded prediction favouring William.
> > >
> >
> >
> > The "William Lilly" group is actually a mailing list of astrologers
> > who try to apply 17th century astrological methods today. It's at
> >
> > http://www.horary.com
> >
> > They're more interested in astrology than history though.
> >
> > If "Lillibulero" does actually refer to William Lilly, I think it will
> > be because he was so famous that his name was a byword for astrologers
> > in general rather than any specific prediction regarding William. In
> > fact Lilly was at the height of his influence during the Civil War and
> > Protectorate. He died in 1681.
>
> The Irish have a reputation for oral history, but I don't see Lilly's
> relevance for them - rallying cries tend to be fairly specific.
>
>
>
Lilly translation are from two different sources. As Wharton wrote the
lyrics (1687) long after the rallying cry was claimed to have been used
(1641) it appears the rallying cry translation is a myth. Wharton
probably used the Gaelic for the lilli reference because when he wrote it
the Stuarts were still in power. Wharton had never publicly supported the
Stuarts. In the House of Commons Wharton had supported the bill to bar
James from the succession because of his Catholicism and when William won
the war Wharton was given prominent posts.
No Irish rallying cry here - it appears it was a political satire first and
then a rallying tune - and the translation of "Lilli will be manifest, the
day will be ours" is likely the true one and Wharton's intent.
Does that make more sense?
pauldanaher
the direct relevance of Lilly was. Any chance it was used as a rhyme for
"Billy"?
Stephen Sandford
Is it not more likely to referr to the Orange Lily worn by Orangemen today
to commemorate William of Orange's victory at the Boyne.
Phil Davison
<Big snip>
> William Lilly was evidently the author of "Christian
Astrology", supposedly
> the first astrological textbook in English. He predicted the
Great Fire of
> London - fourteen years before the event. He is evidently
still quite
> important in astrological circles - there is even a "William
Lilly" mail
> list!
>
which has loads of information about astrologers, William Lilly
published "Monarchy or no Monarchy" in 1651 which included
pictures purporting to "perfectly represent the future condition
of the English nation and commonwealth for many years to come".
One of these showed a burning town and was taken, fifteen years
later, to be a prediction of the Great Fire of London. In the
same book, Lilly predicted that Charles I would be the last ever
King of England. He did a rapid about-turn come the Restoration,
of course, but most astrologers seem to have lived from one wrong
prognostication to the next.
--
Phil Davison
ph...@cyclops.force9.co.uk
Lesley
what
> the direct relevance of Lilly was. Any chance it was used as a rhyme for
> "Billy"?
>
>
dost hear de decree?
Lilli burlero, bullen a la;
Dat we shall have a new deputie,
Lilli burlero, bullen a la.
Chorus:
Lero, lero, lilli burlero,
Lilli burlero, bullen a la
Lero, lero, lero lero
Lilli burlero, bullen a la
Ho, by my Soul, it is a Talbot;
Lilli burlero, bullen a la
And he will cut all de English throat
Lilli burlero, bullen a la
Chorus
Though, by my soul, de Enlish do prate,
Lilli burlero, bullen a la
De law's on dere side and de divil knows what,
Lilli burlero, bullen a la
Chorus
But if Depense do come from de Pope
Lilli burlero, bullen a la
We'll hang Magna Carta demselves on a rope
Lilli burlero, bullen a la
Chorus
And de good Talbot is now made a Lord,
Lilli burlero, bullen a la
And with his brave lads he's coming aboard,
Lilli burlero, bullen a la
Chorus
Who all in France have taken a swear,
Lilli burlero, bullen a la
Dat day will have no Protestant heir,
Lilli burlero, bullen a la
Chorus
O but why does he stay behind?
Lilli burlero, bullen a la
Ho, by my soul, 'tis a Protestant wind,
llli burlero, bullen a la
Chorus
Now that Tyrconnel is come ashore,
Lilli burlero, bullen a la
And we shall have comissions galore.
Lilli burlero, bullen a la
Chorus
And he dat will not go to Mass,
Lilli burlero, bullen a la
Shall be turned out and look like an ass,
Lilli burlero, bullen a la
Chorus
Now, now de hereticks all will go down,
Lilli burlero, bullen a la
By Christ and St. Patrick's the nation's our own,
Lilli burlero, bullen a la
Chorus
Dere was an old prophercy found in a bog,
Lilli burlero, bullen a la
Dat our land would be ruled by an ass and a dog,
Lilli burlero, bullen a la
Chorus
So now dis old prophecy's coming to pass,
Lilli burlero, bullen a la
For James is de dog and Tyrconnel's de ass,
Lilli burlero, bullen a la
Chorus
(Brother Teague was a nickname for all Irishmen the same way John Bull was
for Englishmen)
No Billys there! Prophecies though...
pauldanaher
Stephen Sandford <ssan...@globalnet.co.uk> wrote in message
news:7lqsf3$esb$1...@gxsn.com...
>
> Is it not more likely to referr to the Orange Lily worn by Orangemen today
> to commemorate William of Orange's victory at the Boyne.
>
>
pauldanaher
exactly read like a Williamite song??
da...@skyhook.nospam.force9.co.uk
>> No Irish rallying cry here - it appears it was a political satire first
>and
>> then a rallying tune - and the translation of "Lilli will be manifest, the
>> day will be ours" is likely the true one and Wharton's intent.
>>
>> Does that make more sense?
>>
>>
>Thank you, I was rather thrashing around there! However, I still wonder what
>the direct relevance of Lilly was. Any chance it was used as a rhyme for
>"Billy"?
>
>
At the risk of sounding *silly* ;-)
William Lilly predicted the execution of Charles I and in a pamphlet
entititled "Monarchy or no Monarchy?" he predicted the end of monarchy
itself (can't win 'em all!). He was a staunch supporter of Cromwell
and his almanacs were incredibly popular during the 1640s and '50s.
Naturally, he suffered a fall from grace with the Restoration of the
Stuarts in 1660.
If "Lillibulero" does mean "Lilly will be manifest" then I guess that
Wharton the lyricist was referring back to Lilly's opposition to the
Stuart dynasty during the revolutionary decades. Belief in astrology
was widespread during the 17th century and Lilly was the most famous
of all the astrologers.
da...@skyhook.nospam.force9.co.uk
>> Ho brother Teague,
>> dost hear de decree?
>> Lilli burlero, bullen a la;
>> Dat we shall have a new deputie,
>> Lilli burlero, bullen a la.
>>
>> Chorus:
<snip rest of lyrics>
>I didn't know those verses. Now I'm totally confused again, they don't
>exactly read like a Williamite song??
>
>
Well, they do if you take into account the period between William of
Orange coming to England in 1688 and his victory over James at the
Battle of the Boyne 1690. During that time James and his Catholic
followers were still strong in Ireland even though he was no longer
recognised as king by the English. The lyrics sound to me (and I
stress that this is IMO) like they could reflect the views of a
sarcastic, pissed-off Irish Protestant during that period.
"Talbot" is Richard Talbot, the Earl of Tyrconnel, who James II made
commander of the army in Ireland on his accession in 1685 and lord
deputy ("a new deputie") in 1687. Talbot/Tyrconnel went all out to
catholicise the army, church and state in Ireland. The reference to
France is because the French didn't recognise William's right to rule
in England.
I should think with a song like this, new verses would often be
improvised to suit the circumstances - "I don't know but I've been
told...Lilli burlero bullen a la..."
Lesley
wonder
> > what
> > > the direct relevance of Lilly was. Any chance it was used as a rhyme
for
> > > "Billy"?
> > >
> > >
> > dost hear de decree?
> > Lilli burlero, bullen a la;
> > Dat we shall have a new deputie,
> > Lilli burlero, bullen a la.
> >
> > Chorus:
> > Lilli burlero, bullen a la
> > Lilli burlero, bullen a la
> >
> >
> >
> > Though, by my soul, de Enlish do prate,
> >
> >
> > But if Depense do come from de Pope
> >
> >
> > And de good Talbot is now made a Lord,
> >
> >
> > Who all in France have taken a swear,
> >
> >
> > O but why does he stay behind?
> > llli burlero, bullen a la
> >
> > Chorus
> >
> > Now that Tyrconnel is come ashore,
> >
> >
> > And he dat will not go to Mass,
> >
> >
> > Now, now de hereticks all will go down,
> >
> >
> > Dere was an old prophercy found in a bog,
> >
> >
> > So now dis old prophecy's coming to pass,
> >
> >
> > (Brother Teague was a nickname for all Irishmen the same way John Bull
was
> > for Englishmen)
> >
> > No Billys there! Prophecies though...
> >
> > --
> >
> > lesley
> > http://www.contemplator.com
> > Folk Music of England, Scotland, Ireland, Wales & America
> > Popular Songs in American History, Francis J. Child Ballads
> > Turlough O'Carolan and Contemplations on Life
> >
> >
> exactly read like a Williamite song??
>
>
>
first reading it certainly is a mixed bag. But I think that Talbot had
been in Ireland once already and was not highly regarded (by the
Protestants) - so the verses about having a new deputie, him being made a
lord, his brave lads, etc. would be satirical (rather like having a song
celebrating Dan Quayle's spelling ability). And maybe the Mass and heretic
verses must be meant as a warning to get the Protestant dander up....
Certainly it can't be a Jacobin tune when it ends with asses and dogs!
pauldanaher
certainty...
<da...@skyhook.NOSPAM.force9.co.uk> wrote in message
news:3783ffac...@usenet.force9.net...
> "pauldanaher" <wa...@earthlink.net> wrote in message
> <7lqn32$j7a$1...@fir.prod.itd.earthlink.net>:
>
>
> >> No Irish rallying cry here - it appears it was a political satire first
> >and
> >> then a rallying tune - and the translation of "Lilli will be manifest,
the
> >> day will be ours" is likely the true one and Wharton's intent.
> >>
> >> Does that make more sense?
> >>
> >>
> >Thank you, I was rather thrashing around there! However, I still wonder
what
> >the direct relevance of Lilly was. Any chance it was used as a rhyme for
> >"Billy"?
> >
> >