Commander Lionel Crabb RNVR GM OBE (Buster Crab)
Paul
who served under him during the second ww , Both have since died , I
belieive there as been at least one book written about his eploits at this
time . It was written By Harold Hargreaves .one of the said men . I would
like to know the title of the book and if possible where to obtain a copy.
a.spencer3
Paul <paul.bl...@btconnect.com> wrote in message
news:zqdt8.6262$LN2.63214@NewsReader...
swimming around in one of those aquatic/ice shows they used to put on at
Wembley(?).
I understand he was in the RN, and a 'frogman'. Supposedly, later, he was
swimming around some Russian ships (in Portsmouth/Southampton?) - and not as
a tourist! - and either completely 'disappeared', or his body was later
washed up. Bit of a 'diplomatic incident' was caused.
Sorry it's bitty, but it's all some time ago!
Surreyman
M.J.Powell
<paul.bl...@btconnect.com> writes
Wasn't he the one who dived under the 'Ordzhonikidze' in Portsmouth
harbour?
Mike
--
M.J.Powell
John Dean
career. he was played by Laurence Harvey.
Crabb's headless body was washed up after an ill-fated attempt to examine a
Russian Cruiser in Portsmouth Harbour in 1956. I'm sure there are several
books on the subject
--
John Dean
Oxford
De-frag to reply
Clive Summerfield
news:Zzvk2UA4...@pickmere.demon.co.uk...
That's the chap, and the right ship as well. It had brought Kruschev and
Bulganin to Britain in April 1956. Crabb had already done a hull inspection
of the Sverdlov when it took part in the Spithead naval review. With the
Ordzhonikidze, he was to look for anti-sonar or mine-laying equipment under
the hull. I think the relevant documents which should have been made
available under the 30 year rule, are currently tied up until 2057.
Personally, I've always believed that Soviet sailors shot him while he was
on the surface near the ship.
--
Cheers
Clive
*** Animal testing is a terrible idea; they get all nervous and give the
wrong answers. ***
William Black
Clive Summerfield <cli...@batchtarget.com> wrote in message
news:Qqht8.3793$zz1.23...@news-text.cableinet.net...
> Personally, I've always believed that Soviet sailors shot him while he was
> on the surface near the ship.
I doubt that.
With a state visit of that size and a big strange warship hanging around
someone would have heard the shooting.
The Soviets didn't need a dead frogman, but a live captured one would have
been a big coup for them.
--
William Black
------------------
On time, on budget, or works;
Pick any two from three
Clive Summerfield
news:a94dfh$8u0$1...@helle.btinternet.com...
>
> Clive Summerfield <cli...@batchtarget.com> wrote in message
> news:Qqht8.3793$zz1.23...@news-text.cableinet.net...
>
> > Personally, I've always believed that Soviet sailors shot him while he
was
> > on the surface near the ship.
>
> I doubt that.
>
> With a state visit of that size and a big strange warship hanging around
> someone would have heard the shooting.
>
> The Soviets didn't need a dead frogman, but a live captured one would
have
> been a big coup for them.
>
The other alternative that I guess is plausible, is that he got into
difficulties whilst submerged and simply drowned. He was apparently pretty
unfit by then, and partial to a drink or several so it's not out of the
question.
M.J.Powell
Summerfield <cli...@batchtarget.com> writes
A headless body was found and assumed to be his. I suppose modern DNA
could prove it.
Mike
--
M.J.Powell
Peter P.
By coincidrence in 1956 I was back in my parental home town of Gosport
across the harbour from Portsmouth and watched the smart Russian cruisers
dock at what we used to call the Farewell Jetty. I was in fact making
arrangements for my wedding so it must have been in the early summer of that
year. Even then there was talk about the two impressive vessels. What is
presumed to be Crabb's body was found at Stokes Bay that is on the seaward
side of Gosport opposite the Isle of Wight which is strange if he was under
those ships in the harbour. Mind you the tides and eddies of that narrow
entrance to Pompey are treacherous and I have sailed out of that stretch. It
has always struck me as a strange episode-like peering into your guests
suitcases. Must have been before Suez and Hungary for I was married in the
middle of September and those matters broke then. The subject of Crabb often
surfaced in Gosport and Portsmouth pubs in those days and was generally
condemned as amateurish.
Peter P
M.J.Powell
P. <rin...@bluyonder.co.uk> writes
There was also the story that agents (MI6?) visited the hotel that he
stayed in and tore out the page on the register where he had signed in.
Mike
--
M.J.Powell
John Dean
"William Black" <black_...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:a94dfh$8u0$1...@helle.btinternet.com...
>
> news:Qqht8.3793$zz1.23...@news-text.cableinet.net...
>
> > Personally, I've always believed that Soviet sailors shot him while he
was
> > on the surface near the ship.
>
> I doubt that.
>
> With a state visit of that size and a big strange warship hanging around
> someone would have heard the shooting.
>
by the seagulls, let alone engine noises.
Nightjar
> A headless body was found and assumed to be his. I suppose modern DNA
> could prove it.
IIRC, the body was wearing a navy style dry suit and rebreathing equipment,
which was not common amateur scuba equipment, and nobody else likely to be
using that was missing. I recall the incident, but didn't realise it was as
long ago as 1956.
Colin Bignell
Nightjar
...
> The other alternative that I guess is plausible, is that he got into
> difficulties whilst submerged and simply drowned. He was apparently pretty
> unfit by then, and partial to a drink or several so it's not out of the
> question.
He was also using rebreathing equipment, to avoid leaving bubble trails on
the surface, and doubts have been cast on the safety of the equipment he was
using.
Colin Bignell
a.spencer3
...
How Buster Crabb died
Navy frogman Buster Crabb was the subject of a major Cold War incident when
he disappeared while spying on equipment fitted to Russian warships making a
goodwill visit to Britain in 1956. As the establishment lied about his
death, wild rumours circulated, suggesting that Crabb had been abducted by
the Russians. Now the former head of Soviet Naval Intelligence reveals what
really happened.
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
----
When the body was found near Chichester and lifted from the water, the head
fell off and disappeared. The hands were already gone. Only the
old-fashioned Navy frogman drysuit permitted some sort of identification.
The authorities said it was the last remains of the missing frogman "Buster"
Crabb, and his mother could at last give her son a grave and a headstone,
which she did. It reads:
"In Loving Memory of My Son, Commander Lionel Crabb RNVR GM OBE At Rest At
Last."
But Cdr Crabb wasn't allowed to die for the next 40 years, for nobody
believed that he was really dead. Even his mother! So Fleet Street turned
poor Crabb into an everlasting mystery story.
Only now, thousands of acres of newsprint and 10 books later, do we really
know what happened to the "frogman spy", the man who disappeared after
trying to examine the hull of a Russian cruiser in Portsmouth Harbour in
1956.
At that time, the Royal Navy, the Prime Minister, the Cabinet, MI5 and MI6,
all said it was nothing to do with them. But the Russians kicked up merry
hell about frogmen secretly surveying the hull of the warship which had
brought Soviet Premier Kruschev and Marshal Bulganin on a good-will visit to
Britain.
A measure of how sensitive the Government still finds the matter is the fact
that the Cabinet Papers concerning the Crabb affair, which should have
become open to the public under the 30-year rule in 1986, are now to remain
sealed until 2057!
But the readers of Diver need not wait that long. For, thanks to an
inquisitive and enterprising Israeli journalist, Yigal Serna, we can end the
speculation about what actually happened.
The story of Cdr Lionel Kenneth Philip Crabb, George Medal, OBE, RNVR,
begins early in World War Two.
In 1942, as a Lieutenant and a swiftly-trained demolitions officer with no
real experience, Crabb was appointed mine and disposal officer of Gibraltar.
Italian frogmen of the Italian navy's Tenth Light Flotilla had already sunk
several ships in Gibraltar harbour and a naval underwater working party was
hard at work searching the underside of ships in the port for other mines.
Crabb's job was to dispose of any brought up by naval divers.
However, Crabb thought he should learn to dive himself in order to do his
job properly. The navy divers had no suits (only overalls), no fins (just
plimsolls), and used Davis Submarine Escape Apparatus to breathe. Crabb made
his first dive with this primitive gear and from then on was part of the
underwater defence of shipping at Gibraltar.
Very soon after his first dive he found and removed a mine clamp- ed to the
bilge keel of the steamer Willowdale, and although the mine was of a type
unknown to anyone in Gibraltar, Crabb safely defused it.
From then on Crabb's life was one damned mine after another and diving from
dawn to dusk every day for weeks at a time. Finally, the Italian frogmen's
attacks stopped and "Crabbie" (as his friends called him) was awarded the
George Medal for his work in Gibraltar. He was promoted to
Lieutenant-Commander and was then switched to become Principal Diving
Officer for Northern Italy. When the war moved on he was in charge of
clearing Venice of mines and opening the port to shipping.
When this job was complete, Crabb was given an OBE and, in December 1945,
was moved again to Palestine to head an underwater bomb disposal team. It
was back to searching ships' hulls as terrorists were planting mines under
British ships and police patrol launches. Finally, in 1947, Crabb was
demobilised.
It was at this stage that he seems to have entered the mysterious world of
underwater espionage, employed by the Admiralty on secret diving work.
Certainly, in January 1950 he dived with another frogman, Jimmy Hodges, on
the RN submarine HMS Truculent which had sunk with all hands in the Thames
Estuary. This was a last desperate attempt to find out if anyone was still
alive in her. There wasn't.
Crabb was seen again by Fleet Street reporters on board the Navy deep-diving
ship HMS Reclaim when her underwater cameras found another lost Royal Navy
submarine, the Affray, in 1951.
In 1953, Crabb is believed to have done some secret work in the Suez Canal,
and in 1954 he spent the summer working for the Duke of Argyll, diving
without success to find the Tobermory galleon.
Now the mystery thickens. What did Lionel Crabb actually do for the
Admiralty and to whom was he responsible? The Navy Lists of 1955 and 1956
have him back in the Navy and promoted: "Commander (Special Branch)
L.K.P.Crabb, RNVR, GM, OBE, HMS Vernon".
People at Vernon recall him living in a caravan in a field and wearing the
uniform of a Commander. At other times he was seen in Ports- mouth, always
wearing a fawn tweed suit, pork-pie hat and never without a sword-stick with
a big silver knob engraved with a golden crab.
According to the authors of Frogman Spy, published by W.H. Allen in 1990,
frogman Sydney Knowles was approached by Crabb in October 1955 to join him
on "a small job in Portsmouth".
This "small job" turned out to be a hull inspection of the Soviet cruiser
Sverdlov, which both the British and Americans considered fantastically
manoeuvrable and wanted to know why. The ship was in British waters to take
part in the Spithead naval review, and the job was to be carried out under
the auspices of America's CIA. Knowles says that he and Crabb dived under
the Sverdlov at night. At the bow they found a large circular opening in the
bottom of the hull. Knowles waited at the edge while Crabb went up inside
the hole where he examined a large propeller, which it seemed could be
lowered and directed to give thrust to the bow.
The success of this mission seems to have led to the decision to get Crabb
to look at the hull of the Russian cruiser Ordzhonikidze, which was bringing
Kruschev and Bulganin to Britain. This time he was to search for special
anti-sonar gear or mine-laying hatches beneath her.
Crabb was now 46, not very fit, and a notoriously heavy drinker. Together
with another man he took two rooms at the Sally Port Hotel in High Street,
Portsmouth, on the evening of Tuesday, 17 April, 1956.
The Soviet ships arrived the next day, and the Ordzhonikidze moored at the
South Railway jetty in the RN Dockyard. Two Russian destroyers tied up
alongside.
That night Crabb had drinks with old friends in Havant and was last seen
catching a train back to Portsmouth. After that he simply disappeared. He
didn't turn up for breakfast the next morning. His companion paid the bill
in cash for the two rooms and left, carrying both men's bags. Crabb's room
had been cleared of all his belongings, including his sword-stick. He was
never seen alive again.
Ten days later, following the departure of the Ordzhonikidze, the first
story broke in Fleet Street papers, just a brief paragraph about the famous
frogman Buster Crabb, saying that he had failed to surface from a dive near
Portsmouth.
This was the trigger that fired a story that was to last for 40 years, for
Fleet Street's news editors put two and two together and got the right
answer - Crabb had been diving in Portsmouth when the Russian warships were
in Portsmouth, and Crabb's wartime exploits were all about examining the
hulls of ships, weren't they?
By nightfall, the Sally Port Hotel was full of reporters!
It is interesting to note that one of the BSAC's best known divers,
ex-Chairman and Vice-President Nic Flemming, was staying at the Sally Port
at the same time as Crabb. Nic was then an officer in the Special Boat
Service and was in Portsmouth on diving exercises. Today he recalls the bar
at the Sally Port suddenly filling up with lots of people asking lots of
questions!
The Admiralty, under pressure, finally stated that "Commander Crabb was
missing, presumed drowned, having failed to surface after a dive when
experimenting with secret equipment". Under more pressure, the Admiralty
said that the dive had taken place in Stokes Bay, some three miles from
Portsmouth Harbour.
This statement did nothing to silence the Press, for Fleet Street suspected
that the Navy was trying to give them the run-around. And the story went
into orbit when reporters discovered that the pages of the hotel register
containing the names of Crabb, his companion ("Mr Smith"), and, indeed, of
all staying at the hotel at the time, had been torn out!
Now the Russians started taking a hand. The Soviet Ambassador made a protest
to the Foreign Office about a frogman having been seen near the Russian
ships in Portsmouth, adding that "The Embassy would be grateful to the
British Foreign Office to receive an explanation".
Newspaper headlines put the Foreign Office in a spot and threw the
Government into turmoil. The Prime Minister, Sir Anthony Eden, had, it
seems, forbidden any form of spying during the Russian visit to Britain. But
the Foreign Office reply to the Soviet Embassy read: "As has already been
publicly announced, Commander Crabb was engaged in diving tests and is
presumed to have met his death whilst so engaged.
"The diver, who, as stated in the Soviet note, was observed from the Soviet
warships to be swimming between the Soviet destroyers, was presumably
Commander Crabb. His approach to the destroyers was completely unauthorised
and Her Majesty's Government desire to express their regret at the
incident".
In a crowded House of Commons Sir Anthony refused to go further, claiming
that "it would not be in the public interest to disclose the circumstances
in which Commander Crabb is presumed to have met his death". Hugh Gaitskell
led the Opposition uproar. Five times he demanded more details and five
times Sir Anthony refused.
In the years that followed, the Buster Crabb saga would not lie down, and
rumours were rife. One of the strongest was that Crabb was not dead at all,
but had been captured by Russian frogmen after his breathing equipment went
wrong under the Russian cruiser, taken back to Russia and brainwashed into
working for the Russian secret service, training their frogman teams.
It sounded ridiculous, but Cdr J.S. Kerans, of HMS Amethyst and Yangtse
River fame, then MP for Hartlepool, opened the matter publicly in 1960 by
saying:"I am convinced that Commander Lionel Crabb is alive and in Russian
hands - the Government must reopen this case". The answer was "No". Then in
1964, MP Marcus Lipton submitted what he called new evidence to the Prime
Minister, Harold Wilson, but he too refused to respond.
And so it went on: Crabb was in Moscow's Lefortowo prison and his prison
number was 147; he was a Commander in the Russian Navy under the name of Lev
Lvovich Korablov; he was CO of the Soviet Special Task Underwater
Operational Command in the Black Sea Fleet; he had not been captured at all
but had defected to the Russians to get himself accepted so that he could
pass Soviet secrets to MI6. A double agent no less!
Over the years, other stories included Crabb having been electrocuted by
special steel netting under all Russian ships. Then he was seen in London.
Then in Paris. Then in a special cancer sanitorium in Russia.
In 1987, The Times reported that the Buster Crabb mystery would not be
completely unravelled for another 70 years because of a Government decision
to keep closed that part of the 1956 Cabinet Papers - despite the rule which
usually made such documents public after 30 years. It seemed the world would
have to wait until the year 2057.
But enter Israeli journalist Yigal Serna, who heard that an immigrant to
Israel in 1990 knew how Crabb had died. The immigrant was Joseph Zverkin,
former head of Soviet Naval Intelligence, a man in his nineties, living in
Haifa, who had spent some time under cover as a spy in England during the
1950s.
Fascinated by the Crabb mystery, Yigal Serna arranged meetings with Zverkin,
who was suspicious about questions regarding Crabb and refused at first to
discuss the matter.
But in a report sent to Diver by Nic Flemming, Yigal Serna reveals what
Zverkin finally told him: "Only at our third meeting did he tell me about
Crabb", writes Serna. "He spoke in very precise, heavily accented English.
He said that in 1956, when the event happened, he was in England, under the
code name of a German citizen. In his (Zverkin's) own words, this is what
happened to Crabb:
"Crabb was discovered when he was swimming on the water next to the ship by
a watchman, who was at a height of 20 metres. An order was given to inspect
the water and two people on the deck were equipped with sniper guns - small
calibre. One of them was an ordinary seaman, and the other an officer, the
equivalent of a lieutenant, who was in charge of an artillery unit on the
boat, and an exceptional shot.
Crabb dived next to the boat and came up and swam - perhaps because of air
poisoning. The lieutenant shot him in the head and killed him. He sank. All
the stories about him being caught by us or that he was a Russian spy are
not true."
So now, it seems, we can finally write the somewhat unromantic end to the
long-running mystery story of Lionel "Buster" Crabb that has engaged so many
people for so many years.
QED? I suspect not.
Surreyman
William Black
John Dean <john...@frag.lineone.net> wrote in message
news:a955tm$mcq$1...@news7.svr.pol.co.uk...
>
> "William Black" <black_...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
> news:a94dfh$8u0$1...@helle.btinternet.com...
> >
> > Clive Summerfield <cli...@batchtarget.com> wrote in message
> > news:Qqht8.3793$zz1.23...@news-text.cableinet.net...
> > With a state visit of that size and a big strange warship hanging around
> > someone would have heard the shooting.
> >
> Someone popping off a .22 rifle in the middle of Portsmouth Harbour?
Drowned
> by the seagulls, let alone engine noises.
When did the Red Banner Fleet sail with .22 rifles?
John Dean
>
> John Dean <john...@frag.lineone.net> wrote in message
> news:a955tm$mcq$1...@news7.svr.pol.co.uk...
> >
> > "William Black" <black_...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
> > news:a94dfh$8u0$1...@helle.btinternet.com...
> > >
around
> > > someone would have heard the shooting.
> > >
> > Someone popping off a .22 rifle in the middle of Portsmouth Harbour?
> Drowned
> > by the seagulls, let alone engine noises.
>
> When did the Red Banner Fleet sail with .22 rifles?
>
>
All the time (in case they had to shoot frogmen without making too much
noise) - see http://www.divernet.com/history/crabb696.htm
The standard carbine for WW2 used 5.56 mm (like today's HK53) The maths is
straightforward.
William Black
> All the time (in case they had to shoot frogmen without making too much
> noise) - see http://www.divernet.com/history/crabb696.htm
So a 90 year old gentleman speaking a foreign language says so, and without
any evidence as to his origin he says he was 'head of naval intelligence for
the USSR'.
I've got this real good bridge over the Humber for sale...
> The standard carbine for WW2 used 5.56 mm (like today's HK53) The maths is
> straightforward.
Which Soviet weapon in WWII used 5.56mm?
As far as I'm aware all of them, including the pistols, were 7.62mm.
'Smith and Smith' comment on this and say it is because the Soviet military
used a single calibre to economise in the production of rifled barrel boring
machines
The AKS family of weapons use 5.45mm, but they are quite a bit later than
Crabb
Now it is of course possible that my various references are in error about
all this, but I really would like a cite from a reputable source about a
Soviet military weapon issued to naval units in the 1950's of .22 calibre.
I'm aware of the special forces sub surface stuff developed in the late
seventies and early eighties which use a very odd .22 indeed, but I'm not
aware of anything earlier. I also notice that the source used seems to have
surfaced about the time the first stories of these weapons appeared in the
specialist press in the West
John Dean
have been crawling with KGB / GRU / Special Forces & what have you & they
could use anything they liked.
But OK, for the sake of argument, it was a 7.62 mm - do you really think the
gunshot would be heard in the middle of Portsmouth Harbour above the
constant noise of shipping, aircraft & what have you?
Nightjar
> I'm aware of the special forces sub surface stuff developed in the late
> seventies and early eighties which use a very odd .22 indeed, but I'm not
> aware of anything earlier.
.22 silenced sniper rifles were issued to the WW2 Home Guard Auxiliary
Units, but they were a limited import from America and specifically for
assassinations. As you say, there does not appear to be any reliable source
that suggests the use of this calibre by the Soviets in the 1950s. Their
military philosophy of the era centred on high firepower in the hands of
relatively untrained troops, hence the development of the AK-47 and, before
that, the PPSh 41.
Colin Bignell
William Black
Nightjar <nigh...@insertmysurname.uk.com> wrote in message
news:WKTt8.23175$d45.3...@monolith.news.easynet.net...
> .22 silenced sniper rifles were issued to the WW2 Home Guard Auxiliary
> Units, but they were a limited import from America and specifically for
> assassinations.
They weren't .22, they were .220 Swift rifles.
And you'd hear them go off in Central London in the rush hour even if a
Jumbo Jet was directly overhead, silencer or no silencer.
It is certainly not a .22 LR
This 'Home Guard Auxiliary' stuff comes around now and again. The Home
Guard Auxiliary were out and out terrorist 'stay behind' units which the
regular army wouldn't touch with a barge pole. So the Home Guard had them,
as wearing some sort of uniform might mean that they didn't get shot when
captured.
Apart from Peter Flemming was anyone else actually in them?
William Black
> But OK, for the sake of argument, it was a 7.62 mm - do you really think
the
> gunshot would be heard in the middle of Portsmouth Harbour above the
> constant noise of shipping, aircraft & what have you?
Having spent some time in Porthmouth harbour in the dead of night, yes.
Which is why I am interested in the weapon supposed to have been used.
John Dean
>
> John Dean <john...@frag.lineone.net> wrote in message
> news:a97rf6$e8r$1...@newsg2.svr.pol.co.uk...
>
> > But OK, for the sake of argument, it was a 7.62 mm - do you really think
> the
> > gunshot would be heard in the middle of Portsmouth Harbour above the
> > constant noise of shipping, aircraft & what have you?
>
> Having spent some time in Porthmouth harbour in the dead of night, yes.
>
> Which is why I am interested in the weapon supposed to have been used.
>
William Black
> What makes you think Crabb was shot in the dead of night?
First, because the action seems to have taken place between closing time
and hotel checkout time the next day. Second, because a rifle makes a lot
of noise and Russia sailors popping off in daylight over the side would
attract attention.
Or do you suggest he was captured and murdered some time later?
As a general rule the USSR tended to produce foreign nationals when they
were captured doing something naughty rather than just quietly doing away
with them.
Occam's razor suggests that he had an accident. He was too old and out of
condition and possibly drunk. Getting caught up in a propeller seems most
likely.
Unprovenanced accounts by a 90 year old gentlemen who claims flag rank,
without any documentary proof of his own history, never mind a secret
operation he claims he was part of, isn't anything more than a good
rumour.
Nightjar
>
> Nightjar <nigh...@insertmysurname.uk.com> wrote in message
> news:WKTt8.23175$d45.3...@monolith.news.easynet.net...
>
> > .22 silenced sniper rifles were issued to the WW2 Home Guard Auxiliary
> > Units, but they were a limited import from America and specifically for
> > assassinations.
>
> They weren't .22, they were .220 Swift rifles.
In Sussex it was the Winchester Model 74, .22 calibre, with a Parker-Hale
silencer, according to 'Secret Sussex Resistance' by Stewart Angell
> This 'Home Guard Auxiliary' stuff comes around now and again. The Home
> Guard Auxiliary were out and out terrorist 'stay behind' units which the
> regular army wouldn't touch with a barge pole. So the Home Guard had
them,
> as wearing some sort of uniform might mean that they didn't get shot when
> captured.
They were more Home Guard than regular Army. They were all men in regular
jobs who did their training in their spare time. Their job was to tie up so
much of the invasion force in protecting the area they had captured that the
offensive would be seriously hampered. The uniforms would have offered no
protection against being shot as none of the three Battalions ever had
official recognition. They were, therefore, not covered by the Geneva
Convention and Hitler had already threatened the regular Home Guard with
summary execution when caught. Their bases had two weeks' supplies, which
was the maximum anyone thought they could survive after an invasion.
There was also a Home Guard Special Duties Organisation, which was
responsible for spying and radio communications from behind enemy lines.
They used radios in the 60-65 MHz range, which were short range but the
frequency was unusual and not normally monitored.
>
> Apart from Peter Flemming was anyone else actually in them?
Colonel Colin Gubbins was in charge and he had 12 Intelligence Officers
under him. Each IO (I think Peter Fleming was one of those) created one
scout patrol (two in Sussex), consisting of a junior officer with about a
dozen NCOs and other ranks from the regular Army, whose job was to train the
Home Guard units. There was also a central training unit at Coleshill House,
near Swindon, where they could practice the sabotage techniques and where
there were annual inter-unit competitions.
Initially, the Home Guard Auxiliary Units, excluding the regular Army scout
patrols, had 21 patrols, comprising 134 men, in Sussex, 47 patrols with 301
men in Hampshire and 33 patrols with 208 men in Kent. The smallest patrol
was four men and the largest was eight men. There were other Auxiliary units
throughout Britain, even up into Scotland, but the vast majority were in
these three counties.
Colin Bignell
William Black
>
> "William Black" <black_...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
> news:a995i9$lfd$1...@knossos.btinternet.com...
> >
> > Nightjar <nigh...@insertmysurname.uk.com> wrote in message
> > news:WKTt8.23175$d45.3...@monolith.news.easynet.net...
> >
> > > .22 silenced sniper rifles were issued to the WW2 Home Guard Auxiliary
> > > Units, but they were a limited import from America and specifically
for
> > > assassinations.
> >
> > They weren't .22, they were .220 Swift rifles.
>
> In Sussex it was the Winchester Model 74, .22 calibre, with a Parker-Hale
> silencer, according to 'Secret Sussex Resistance' by Stewart Angell
There is no such thing as a .22 calibre rifle.
The Winchester 74 was a semi automatic rifle made in .22 Short, which is an
exceptionally bad round for assassination purposes. It is not greatly more
powerful than an air gun and is used either for very small game or vermin or
target shooting where very low recoil is important.
John Dean
>
> John Dean <john...@frag.lineone.net> wrote in message
> news:a99dmv$a8n$1...@news7.svr.pol.co.uk...
>
> > What makes you think Crabb was shot in the dead of night?
>
> First, because the action seems to have taken place between closing time
> and hotel checkout time the next day. Second, because a rifle makes a
lot
> of noise and Russia sailors popping off in daylight over the side would
> attract attention.
You have a lot of faith in spies making accurate entries in hotel registers.
Of course, strictly speaking you ought to give the occasional cite for your
views. But I'll continue the one-sided burden. Here's a site that makes
reference to time, though not assassination
http://www.angelfire.com/dc/1spy/Crabb.html
viz - At 7:30 A.M. on April 19, 1956, Soviet sailors were surprised to see
an object suddenly shoot upward between the ships and then disappear. One
report had it that a diver "popped up like a cork to the surface of
Portsmouth Harbor… the shiny, snouted figure in the rubber suit of a navy
frogman… Then, with a kick of his long black flippers, he dove down into the
dark, dirty waters of the historic English port."
Given there were 3 Russian ships, I see no reason why Crabb might have been
between two of them & therefore not visible other than to Russians on deck.
And, again for the sake of argument, supposing someone *had* heard a shot.
Given that the British Government never put out a 'Would anyone who heard a
sot in or near Portsmouth Harbour ... please report to the nearest Police
Station'' I'm not sure what they would have done with the info. If, of
course, they'd *known* it was a shot they heard
>
> Or do you suggest he was captured and murdered some time later?
Always possible
>
> As a general rule the USSR tended to produce foreign nationals when they
> were captured doing something naughty rather than just quietly doing away
> with them.
Unless they have information unavailable elsewhere. Gary Powers got handed
back because the info he collected was in the cameras, not in his head. But
Crabb may have discovered the secret of the Russian Cruiser's speed &
mobility (ie the secret extrat propeller) in which case they would have
topped him
>
> Occam's razor suggests that he had an accident. He was too old and out of
> condition and possibly drunk. Getting caught up in a propeller seems most
> likely.
>
Very possible. These would be the propellers driven by the engines that
weren't loud enough to drown the noise of a rifle shot?
a.spencer3
>
>
> There is no such thing as a .22 calibre rifle.
>
>
there a difference of technicality here?
Surreyman
William Black
a.spencer3 <a.spe...@ntlworld.com> wrote in message
news:wQ9u8.14914$tZ1.4...@news2-win.server.ntlworld.com...
There's a whole slew of different .22 rifle cartridges.
Some are more suitable than others for various tasks.
Indoor rifle ranges tend to be used with small .22 rim fire ammunition which
comes in several 'flavours', usually depending on case length.
Vaughan Sanders
I don't recall ever seeing a .22 that wasn't rim fire ?
I used to use a .22 rifle on the farm where I helped out in the 60's, it was
extremely powerful.
It could put a hole right through both sides of a wooden Chicken coup at a
fair range, when a P45 Walther, firing 9mm Luger ammo would only dent the
coup at the same range.
The Walther was louder than a 12 bore, but the .22 was fairly quite even
with the more powerful ammo (at least twice the length case of fairground
ammo).
Could you explain the difference between .22 and .220 ?
Jamie
Vaughan Sanders
"Vaughan Sanders" <vaughan...@virgin.net> wrote in message news:...
Correction, should have been P38.
Jamie
William Black
> Could you explain the difference between .22 and .220 ?
.22 Rimfire comes in several different lengths.
The usual ones seen today are:
.22 RF Short, usually seen in gallery rifles, and a few specialised rapid
fire pistols.
.22 RF Long, usually only seen today in old 'rook rifles'.
.22 RF Long Rifle, the normal round seen in target rifles and pistols a
small vermin control weapons. It is very much THE round used in the UK for
target shooting and small game.
Then there is a .22 centerfire family
.220 Swift, .222 Hornet (and lots more, usually referred in the USA as
'varmint rounds') are all high velocity (3000 fps or thereabouts)
centre-fire rifle rounds using bottleneck cases. The current 5.56mm NATO
round is derived from these.
The .22 WMR is somewhere between the two groups, being a centerfire
bottleneck shaped round but short enough to be fired from a pistol.
Andrew Chaplin
> .220 Swift, .222 Hornet (and lots more, usually referred in the USA as
> 'varmint rounds') are all high velocity (3000 fps or thereabouts)
> centre-fire rifle rounds using bottleneck cases. The current 5.56mm NATO
> round is derived from these.
The original 5.56 M-193 was the .223 Remington, a varmint rifle
bullet.
--
Andrew Chaplin
SIT MIHI GLADIUS SICUT SANCTO MARTINO
(If you're going to e-mail me, you'll have to get "yourfinger."
out, and change "home" to "rogers".)
William Black
Andrew Chaplin <abch...@rogers.com> wrote in message
news:3CB9D040...@rogers.com...
> William Black wrote:
>
> > .220 Swift, .222 Hornet (and lots more, usually referred in the USA as
> > 'varmint rounds') are all high velocity (3000 fps or thereabouts)
> > centre-fire rifle rounds using bottleneck cases. The current 5.56mm
NATO
> > round is derived from these.
>
> The original 5.56 M-193 was the .223 Remington, a varmint rifle
> bullet.
There are dozens of these odd US flat shooting varmint rounds.
Most are designed to be shot from bench rifles at small targets at
reasonably long ranges. They use a light bullet and very high velocity.
I think the .220 Swift was the first, and probably the best, and certainly
dates back to the 'thirties. It is in commonly used in the UK as a fox
control round, barrels typically only last a couple of hundred shots.
Odysseus
>
> .220 Swift, .222 Hornet (and lots more, usually referred in the USA as
> 'varmint rounds') are all high velocity (3000 fps or thereabouts)
> centre-fire rifle rounds using bottleneck cases. The current 5.56mm NATO
> round is derived from these.
>
Other .22-calibre rifles I've used (not a great number) were all
rim-fired .22 Long Rifle.
--Odysseus
Nightjar
...
>
> There is no such thing as a .22 calibre rifle.
A flat, unexplained, statement that contradicts what most people understand
is not particularly helpful. If those long, rifled barrel weapons that I
loaded with .22 cartridges and fired were not .22 rifles, what were they?
Colin Bignell
William Black
This has been gone into at some considerable length in another thread.
Nightjar
>
> Nightjar <nigh...@insertmysurname.uk.com> wrote in message
> news:gfvu8.26218$d45.3...@monolith.news.easynet.net...
> >
> > "William Black" <black_...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
> > news:a99vi0$csa$1...@helle.btinternet.com...
> > ...
> > >
> > > There is no such thing as a .22 calibre rifle.
> >
> > A flat, unexplained, statement that contradicts what most people
> understand
> > is not particularly helpful. If those long, rifled barrel weapons that I
> > loaded with .22 cartridges and fired were not .22 rifles, what were
they?
>
> This has been gone into at some considerable length in another thread.
Not one I have seen, read or can identify, so the question remains.
Colin Bignell
John Gilmer
I suspect he is being a wise guy either by:
1) saying that it is a 0.22" caliber rifle
or
2) saying that caliber is the ratio of length to bore. A 0.22 caliber
rife in 0.22" caliber would have a bore length of aoub 0.05".
(Naval "Rifles" were up to around 50 caliber. A 16" gun would have a
length of about 66 feet.
William Black
Sorry about that.
.22 is a barrel width.
There is a huge range of different rounds you can fire through them from .22
short through .220 Swift, .22 Hornet and the late but not unlamented .22
Jet.
All have different ballistic properties, ranging from slow target rounds
used only because of low recoil in rapid fire pistols up to rounds suitable
for taking medium sized soft skinned game, and just about everything in
between.
William Black
John Gilmer <gil...@crosslink.net> wrote in message
news:3cbb787d$0$61...@dingus.crosslink.net...
Dead wrong.
Don't push your luck.
I should add that responding to a post directed at someone else, within two
hours of it being posted, and near midnight my time at that, is less that
I expect.
mlan...@gmail.com
> Could any one give me any info about this man . I used drink with Two men
> who served under him during the second ww , Both have since died , I
> belieive there as been at least one book written about his eploits at this
> time . It was written By Harold Hargreaves .one of the said men . I would
> like to know the title of the book and if possible where to obtain a copy.
----------------------------------------------------------------------------There are many Books about Commander Crabb just look on the Amazon website. There is speculation regards his disappearance and nearly every book comes up with a different answer.
Since 1956 there has been some official disclosure under the 30 year rule and part of this disclosure is that the RN had a group of divers inspecting the ships hulls at the same time or within a day or two of Crabbs dive/disappearance. Why is everything classified for a hundred years?
Who else is involved and why? Remember that Crabb was friends with High ranking MI6 officers who were also Russian agents. He (crabb) was also part of the first sealords private spy team.