: What is the evidence for Phoenician involvement with tin from Britain? ,/ Phoenician TIN mine located in South Australia
kangarooistan
with tin from Britain?
Please read debate thus far to save time IF you are genuinely
interested , much debate has already covered basic details on this
topic
Newsgroups: sci.archaeology, soc.history.ancient
From: Doug Weller <dwel...@ramtops.thisremove.co.uk>
Date: Mon, 7 Jun 2004 17:22:38 +0100
Local: Tues, Jun 8 2004 1:22 am
.
Subject: What is the evidence for Phoenician involvement with tin from
Britain?
We all know the Phoenician traders traded tin from Cornwall, right?
We may no longer think they actually mined it, but somehow they were
involved.
For four centuries, a Phoenician link with British tin trade has been
accepted as more or less gospel. Of course, 400 years ago there were
no known alternative sources of tin, it *must* have come from
Britain.
But as I've shown in an earlier post, we now know better.
So just what is the evidence for Phoenician involvement? How well does
it stand up to scrutiny?
Or is this the archaeological equivalent of an 'urban myth'?
Doug
=============================================
Hi Doug , and others from the earlier debate
My research seems to lean heavily towards a South Australian source
for the Bronze Age Tin supply
All the know tin mines from antiquity would be unable to supply 10% of
known world demand during the several thousand years of the bronze age
There was CLEARLY some secret mine that was lost at the time of the
Bronze Age collapse
The site in south Australia was suddenly started then abandoned at
the exact same time as the bronze age , and the black sand is MISSING
where the shell middens are found
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Middens
the site in South Australia FITS PERFECTLY from every angle
http://outernode.pir.sa.gov.au/minerals/geology/minerals_mines_and_quarries/commodities/mineral_sands
Except pre conceived thinking that refuses to even consider the
EVIDENCE
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Heavy_mineral_sands_ore_deposits
Its now only a matter of time till even the experts are forced to
admit they over looked the largest mine in all human history because
it was TOO BIG
can not see a mine only a VAST hole ,
forgetting about the ancient canals and great walls and stone
buildings of vast proportions in that era , they over look the size a
1000 years of tin mining could be
http://www.arta.com.au/samaps/maps/coorong.gif
http://outernode.pir.sa.gov.au/minerals/geology/minerals_mines_and_quarries/commodities/mineral_sands
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Heavy_mineral_sands_ore_deposits
==============================================
One other observation. Ostromundes is also a word used by some of the
Ancient historians related to a place up north over water with which
the islands we today calls the British Isle made trade with. It's
also noted to have had a lot of Oestershells instead of sandbanks. I
read that in one of the 400 BC works handed down in 275 AD. I have it
somewhere so I can look it
up if you want me to.
Inger E
==============================================
> There are three places on the Ocean shores where tin can be found:
> Cornwall, Brittany and the Scilly islands.
You don't count Sicily? Where was the Iberian tin?
And of course, could the actual location be a secret, disguised by
this
tale?
[SNIP]
Doug
=============================================
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Himilco_the_Navigator
Avienus clearly describes the Ocean, not the Mediterranean.
> And of course, could the actual location be a secret, disguised by this
> tale?
I've more or less dealt with this possibility in the third part of the
article I linked to (http://www.livius.org/hi-hn/himilco/himilco.htm).
I suppose that Himilco did indeed exaggerate some of the dangers he
encountered to make sure that others would be deterred.
Jona
============================================
Italo wrote:
> Diodorus 5.38 says the Kassiterides were small isles in the Ocean in
> front of the Iberian coast, "beyond Lusitania" (Portugal).
They are also mentioned by Herodotus, who entertains some doubts about
them. In c.325, Pytheas identified them with Britain, but the oldest
report (by Midakritos, quoted by Pliny 7.197) is unclear about the
whereabouts of the Kassiterides.
Jona
-- ==========================================
Peramangk - ' Per Amun Angk ??
The Peramangk are an Indigenous Australian people whose traditional
lands are primarily located in Adelaide Hills but also in the southern
stretches of the ...
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Peramangk - Cached - Similar -
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Peramangk
1.
Kaurna - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
19 Nov 2008 ... The Kaurna (pronounced "Gaa-nah") people are a
group of Indigenous Australians whose traditional lands lie in and
around the Adelaide Plains ...
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kaurna - Cached - Similar -
2.
Kaurna language -
.. Kaurna is the language of the Kaurna people, an indigenous
ethnic group, in South Australia. Kaurna country extends down the
Adelaide Plains ...
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kaurna_language - Cached - Similar -
3. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kaurna_language
Sumerian references to the Mar.tu ("tent dwellers" - considered to be
Amorite) country West of the Euphrates date from even earlier than
Sargon, at least to the reign of Enshakushanna of Uruk.
Certain scholars of the Eblaite material (dated 2350 BC) from the
archive of Tell Mardikh see the oldest reference to Canaanites in the
ethnic name ga-na-na which provides a third millennium reference to
the name Canaan.[13]
Canaan is mentioned in a document from the 18th century BC found in
the ruins of Mari, a former Sumerian outpost in Syria, located along
the Middle Euphrates. Apparently Canaan at this time existed as a
distinct political entity (probably a loose confederation of city-
states).
Tablets found in the Mesopotamian city of Nuzi use the term Kinahnu
("Canaan") as a synonym for red or purple dye, laboriously produced by
the kassites from murex shells as early as c 1600 BC and on the
Mediterranean coast
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Martu
Kârum Kaneš
The quarter of the city of most interest to historians is the Kârum
Kaneš, "merchant-colony city of Kaneš" in Assyrian. During the Bronze
Age in this region, the Kârum was a portion of the city set aside by
local officials for the early Assyrian merchants to use without paying
taxes, as long as the goods remained inside the kârum.
The term kârum means "port" in Akkadian, the lingua franca of the
time, although it was extended to refer to any trading colony whether
it bordered water or not.
Several other cities in Anatolia also had kârum, but the largest was
Kaneš. This important kârum was inhabited by merchants from Assyria
for hundreds of years, who traded local tin and wool for luxury items,
foodstuffs and spices, and, woven fabrics from the Assyrian homeland
and from Elam.
The remains of the kârum form a large circular mound 500m in diameter
and about 20m above the plain (a Tell). The kârum settlement site is
the result of several superposed stratigraphic periods. New buildings
were constructed on top of the remains of the earlier periods, thus
there is a deep stratigraphy from prehistoric times to the early
Hittite period.
Tin does not occur naturally by itself, and must be extracted from a
base compound, usually cassiterite (SnO2), the only commercially
important source of tin, although small quantities of tin are
recovered from complex sulfides such as stannite, cylindrite,
franckeite, canfieldite, and teallite.
Minerals with tin are almost always in association with granite
rock, which when contain the mineral, have a 1% tin oxide content.[13]
Due to the higher specific gravity of tin and its resistance to
corrosion, about 80% of mined tin is from secondary deposits found
downstream from the primary lodes.
Tin is often recovered from granules washed downstream in the past
and deposited in valleys or under sea. The most economical ways of
mining tin are through dredging, hydraulic methods or open cast
mining.
Most of the world's tin is produced from placer deposits, which may
contain as little as 0.015% tin.
The Kaska contributed to the fall of the Hittite empire in the Bronze
Age collapse, c. 12000 BC.
Then they penetrated eastern Anatolia, and continued their thrust
southwards, where they encountered the Assyrians. The Assyrian king
Tiglath-Pileser I recorded late in the 12th century BC that the Kaska
and their Mushki allies were active in what had been the Hatti
heartland. Tiglath-Pileser defeated them, and the Kaska then disappear
from all historical records.
The Uluburun Shipwreck is a well-documented late 14th century BC
shipwreck of the Late Bronze Age period, discovered off the south
coast of Turkey in the Mediterranean Sea near the city of Kaş in the
province of Antalya.
A Turkish sponge diver found it in 1982. It was recovered using
techniques of underwater excavation in 11 consecutive campaigns of 3-4
months duration each from 1984 to 1994. [1]
Contents
[hide]
[edit] The vessel
real-size replica
Bodrum Museum of Underwater Archaeology, Bodrum, Turkey
The wreck represents a merchant ship of Near Eastern, origin.
The ship was about 15 m long and could stow ca. 20 tons of cargo. The
hull had been badly damaged, but some parts are preserved, partly by
the corrosion products of the copper ingots.
The hull was made of cedar wood of edge-joined planks (shell-based
method of shipbuilding), a technique known from later Phoenician,
Greek and Roman ships as well. Fragments of oars have been found; the
largest was still 1.7 m long and 7 cm thick.
The ship had at least 24 stone anchors on board, weighting between
120-210 kg, with two smaller ones of only 16-21 kg weight. [2] Some of
the anchors seem to have been spares and served to keep the ship
balanced as well. Anchors of the single-hole Ulu Burun type are
frequent on the Levantine coast, for example in Tell Abu Hawam,
Ugarit, and Byblos.
[edit] Dating
The ship has been dated to the late Bronze Age. In 1996, Cemal Pulak
in "Dendrochronological Dating of the Uluburun Ship" dated the
component parts of it to trees felled around 1400 BCE.
But he further reported, from Kuniholm, that firewood stored aboard
came from a tree felled 1316-1305 BCE - which must be the time of its
last voyage.
The latter, later date would agree well with the finds made aboard. To
give one dramatic example, the Mycenaean ware therein is of the LHIIIA:
2 type, also found in Mursilis II's destruction layer of Miletus.
According to that Hittite king's annals, this raid occurred a few
years prior to an "omen of the sun" commonly called "Mursili's
eclipse", 1312 BCE.
However, in Science 21 Dec 2001, Kuniholm retracted his dating of the
dunnage: "Caution should be exercised concerning a previously stated
date derived from just two poorly preserved pieces of cargo/dunnage
wood from the famous Uluburun shipwreck (refs).
The quality and security of the dendrochronological placement of these
samples versus the Bronze-Iron master chronology are not especially
strong." (S. W. Manning, Kromer, B., Kuniholm, P., I., Newton, M. W.,
2001; Anatolian Tree Rings and a New Chronology for the East
Mediterranean Bronze-Iron Ages.)
[edit] Apparent route
One opinion is that the ship was outbound from Cyprus (of which at
least parts of it were then known as Alashiya), and carried a
consignment of 6 tons of copper ingots (from the copper mines of
Cyprus, verified by analysis).
The nationality of the ship has not been determined, since the
articles carried were Mycenaean, Cypriot, Canaanite, Kassite,
Egyptian, and Assyrian.
Judging from the vast wealth of the cargo (more than 18,000 catalogued
artifacts were raised from the seabed), it has also been offered that
the vessel may have been bound for the Nile River, which was at the
time a remarkable center of trade. Yet another opinion states that the
cargo may have comprised offerings to Egyptian Pharaohs.
[edit] Cargo
The ship carried:-
* 354 (ca. 10 tons) of copper ingots in the typical oxhide-shape
(a shape which allows it to be easily carried on the backs of horses
or mules), originally stacked in four rows.
* At least 40 tin ingots, which contain very little lead. The
source of the tin is still a matter of debate, but it might have come
from Spain (Tarshish), or from Afghanistan.
These copper and tin ingots constitute the largest collection of
Bronze Age ingots found on a single site [3]
The Uluburun Shipwreck is a well-documented late 14th century BC
shipwreck of the Late Bronze Age period, discovered off the south
coast of Turkey in the Mediterranean Sea near the city of Kaş in the
province of Antalya. A Turkish sponge diver found it in 1982. It was
recovered using techniques of underwater excavation in 11 consecutive
campaigns of 3-4 months duration each from 1984 to 1994. [1]
* At least 40 tin ingots, which contain very little lead. The
source of the tin is still a matter of debate, but it might have come
from Spain (Tarshish), or from Afghanistan.but there is only ONE place
where tin identical can still be found today ,
It was almost certainly from the Coorong and lower Murray lakes in
South Australia from my research , no other site is big enough to
supply even 10% of world demand for TIN during the bronze age
*
* These copper and tin ingots constitute the largest collection of
Bronze Age ingots found on a single site [3]
In ancient geography
Herodotus (430 BC) had dimly heard of the Cassiterides. Later writers
— Posidonius, Diodorus, Strabo[1] and others — call them smallish
islands off (some way off, Strabo says) the north-west coast of Spain,
which contained tin mines, or according to Strabo tin and lead mines.
A passage in Diodorus derives the name rather from their nearness to
the tin districts of north-west Spain. Ptolemy and Dionysios
Periegetes mentioned them, the former as 10 small islands in northwest
Spain far off the coast arranged symbolically as a ring, and the
latter in connection with the Hesperides.
At a time when geographical knowledge of the west was still scanty and
the secrets of the tin-trade were still successfully guarded by the
seamen of Gades and others who dealt in the metal, the Greeks knew
only that tin came to them by sea from the far west, and the idea of
tin-producing islands easily arose.
Later, when the west was better explored, it was found that tin
actually came from two regions, north-west Spain and Cornwall. Neither
of these could be called small islands or described as off the north-
west coast of Spain, and so the Greek and Roman geographers did not
identify either as the Cassiterides.
Instead, they became a third, ill-understood source of tin, conceived
of as distinct from Spain or Britain.
Modern writers have made many attempts to identify them.
Small islands off the coast of north-west Spain, the headlands of that
same coast, the Isles of Scilly, Cornwall, the British Isles as a
whole, have all in turn been suggested, but none suits the
conditions.
Neither the Spanish islands nor the Isles of Scilly contain tin, at
least in serious quantities.
It seems most probable, therefore, that the name Cassiterides
represents the first vague knowledge of the Greeks that tin was found
overseas somewhere
http://docs.google.com/Doc?id=dcgk9t7p_6hm5bqkfc&hl=en
When they finally examine the tin in the Coroong in South australia
they will eventually discover where the ancient world got 90% of its
tin from for over 2000years
The Lower Murray Lakes and the Coorong are ancient man made tin
mines , harvesting the heavy mineral sands washed down the River
Murray over millions of years
==========================================
this artifactor what looks like an old iron tool stuck in stone was
recovered from the site in South Australia , is one of the few
remaining artifacts , other than the language and abandoned open cast
mine sites and shell middens , ALL of which need research , but ALL
seem to point towards an ancient tin mining and nearby gold mining
industry that lased for well over 1000 years and ended about 2 or 3
thousand years ago ,there is no way to unpack all the evidence , but
it is growinfg stronger every day and IMHO there is no doubt that
"Phoenetian" traders were in the areas mining TIN and Gold on a VAST
scale that would fill themissing " TIN " gap seen in present mining
ancient history , and they stopped calling about 3000 years ago ,
based on the deposition rates of middens
http://www.arta.com.au/samaps/maps/coorong.gif
Kangarooistan old iron tool / proof Turin papyrus "gold mine" is in
South Australia , test images
Slideshow
http://picasaweb.google.com/kangarooistan9/KangarooistanOldIronToolProofTurinPapyrusGoldMineIsInSouthAustraliaTestImages#
============================================
kangarooistan / Turin Papyrus gold mine 006
Kangarooistan / Tiurin Papyrus by Pro Harrell , first 75 cm is the
gold mine in South Australia
kangarooistan / Turin Papyrus gold mine 006
kangarooistan / Turin Papyrus gold mine South Australia 002
kangarooistan /Turin Papyrus gold mine 003
Kangarooistan / Turin Papyrus gold mine South Australia , 004 enhanced
colour ,who was making purple and red leather or iron tools or gold
mining 3200 years ago in South Australia
kangarooistan / Turin Papyrus gold mine 005 , south Australia
Kangarooistan / Turin Papyrus gold mine 005 , South Australia , not
yellow ochres not gold in fossilized red leather cloth ??
Kangarooistan ? Turin Papyrus gold mine , note the yellow is not gold
but yellow ochres
kangarooistan / Turin Papyrus gold mine 006
kangarooistan old iron tool in conglomerate , south australia
Kangarooistan iron tool enhanced color red
kangarooistan iron tool halfted handle magnified
kangarooistan iron tool enhanced color
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Martu
Martu
From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Jump to: navigation, search
Martu may refer to
* an ancient Middle Eastern people; see Amorite.
* the deity they worshipped; see Amurru.
* a Sumerian god; see Martu
* an Australian Aboriginal people.
Canaan (Phoenician: כנענ, Kana'n, Many earlier Egyptian sources also
make mention of numerous military campaigns conducted in Ka-na-na,
Arabic: كنعان) is an ancient term for a region encompassing modern-day
Israel and Lebanon, the Palestinian Territories,
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kaurna
Matt Giwer
> REVISIT , Subject: What is the evidence for Phoenician involvement
> with tin from Britain?
> Hi Doug , and others from the earlier debate
> My research seems to lean heavily towards a South Australian source
> for the Bronze Age Tin supply
> All the know tin mines from antiquity would be unable to supply 10% of
> known world demand during the several thousand years of the bronze age
Are you aware that our iron and aluminum production is only about 10% of what
we use? They are 90% recycled. Bronze was recycled.
The other issue is one I believe I brought up when You first posted about
this sort of thing is IF there were such a mine in Australia the site would be
littered with bronze age trash, lost items, and pottery fragments. If there
were such things found there would be no doubt. On the other hand it is
impossible not to have left such evidence so if nothing is found it is not
what a bronze age mine.
You other problem is people always bring their food animals with them. Our
food items are placental mammals. It is not possible to prevent some from
escaping into the wild. Horse were extremely valuable to the Spanish in the
New World. They did escape and go wild. Try as hard as you want, animals will
escape into the wild.
--
Palestine has been known by that name since at least
the 5th c. BC when Herodotus reported that name.
-- The Iron Webmaster, 4156
http://www.giwersworld.org/environment/aehb.phtml a2
Mon Jul 13 20:36:28 EDT 2009
kangarooistan
> kangarooistan wrote:
> > REVISIT , Subject: What is the evidence for Phoenician involvement
> > with tin from Britain?
> ...
> > Hi Doug , and others from the earlier debate
> > My research seems to lean heavily towards a South Australian source
> > for the Bronze Age Tin supply
> > All the know tin mines from antiquity would be unable to supply 10% of
> > known world demand during the several thousand years of the bronze age
>
> Are you aware that our iron and aluminum production is only about 10% of what
> we use? They are 90% recycled. Bronze was recycled.
Indeed Matt, probably more than 90% was recycled 300years ago , but
bronze WAS also being made in china India and Persia at the same
time , the bronze from the Mediterranean was only about 10% of world
production by population
Bronze / tin was as valuable as gold at times ,and wars were waged
just for the bronze , 3000 years ago it was about the same military
values as Uranuium is today , the owners iof a tin mine would have
been as paranoid about security as todays nuclear industry is
>
> The other issue is one I believe I brought up when You first posted about
> this sort of thing is IF there were such a mine in Australia the site would be
> littered with bronze age trash, lost items, and pottery fragments. If there
> were such things found there would be no doubt. On the other hand it is
> impossible not to have left such evidence so if nothing is found it is not
> what a bronze age mine.
----------------------------------------------
Have you researched 3000 year old mines and noted a total lack of
artifacts seen in the civilized world nearby , mines were the poorest
laborers in the system , and if you research mines from any era you
may be surprised to see very very very little artifacts , cities of
ten thousand people are often only identified by discovering the
temple all other evidence is missing from ancient cities , more so in
the mines that served the city
>
> You other problem is people always bring their food animals with them.
ONLY if they needed food
There is abundant local food in South Australia and hereare MIDDENS
that match the missing black sand / tin
any examination of the lower lakes and coorong would reveal the black
sand seen nearby is MISSING from the area we now call the Coorong ,
WHY is is missing from the area any geologist surveying to landscape
would identify as PRIME target for heavy mineral sands at the end of
a 3500km river system
http://www.arta.com.au/samaps/maps/coorong.gif
Midden deposition rates increse during bronze age then decrease
suddenly 2000 years ago , some ceased altogether , in articular the
Kartan people guarding the mouth of the river murray from their
lookout at " hawkes nest"
leaving behind the mysterious " kartan stone tools"
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
Discoveries and Research - South Australian Museum
Collected from the Hawks Nest site, 1930, and subsequently
published, ... More Kartan tools were discovered in northern sites, in
the Flinders Ranges, ...
www.samuseum.sa.gov.au/page/default.asp?site=1&id... - Cached -
Similar -
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
AND dingoes
Transcript:
Robyn Williams: The dingo has been in Australia for nearly as long as
the pyramids have stood in the sands of Egypt. But now the ancient
Australian could become extinct. This Science Show special is
presented by Jonica Newby.
Eve Fesl: I feel that the dingo has been persecuted as we have been.
The myths, the misconceptions, the actions – the dingo has suffered in
the same way my people have.
This then, is the real story of the dingo in Australia - and it begins
on a boat 4000 years ago.
http://www.abc.net.au/rn/science/ss/stories/s314366.htm
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Our
> food items are placental mammals. It is not possible to prevent some from
> escaping into the wild. Horse were extremely valuable to the Spanish in the
> New World. They did escape and go wild. Try as hard as you want, animals will
> escape into the wild.
WHY take animals to a mine site at the end of the world , the workers
had plenty of food
The ancient Phoenicians were traders not miners
poor brown peoples did the mining and probably knew nothing of the end
use of the black sand as a uranium miner is far removed from nuclear
reactor even today , the gap between miners and cities was much
greater back 3000 years ago
as indeed this post started out by asking where is the evidence of tin
mining 3000 years ago in UK
By default ??
Tin WAS mined somewhere
The only sizable tin deposits in the area in the ancient world was
inUK
It was assumed his MUST havebeen the sourse of the tin used in
theancient world
MY CLAIM is 90% of the tin used during the bronze age was mined from
the mouth of the River Murray
here is a HOLE , that would ' fit " the mine size needed , there is a
river long enough and old enough to build up the required amount of
black sand / TIN
There is " MISSING " black sand where nature / geology says the black
sands SHOULD be , and a lake system that matches a mine site BUT FAILS
to match anything made by mother nature
The ONLY way to create the Coorong / lower Lakes is man made
Mother nature uses "different methods" to deal with river mouth sands
There is some considerable evidence it was removed between 4000 and
2000 years ago by sea , examine midden deposition rates and location
of middens
who could have used a million tons of tin , 2000 years ago and removed
it by sea without telling anybody
IF it was Chinese or Indian people WHY did they suddenly STOP coming
2000 years ago ???
http://catalogue.nla.gov.au/Record/76900
The great Kartan mystery / Ronald Lampert | National Library of ...
Available in the National Library of Australia collection. Author:
Lampert, RJ (Ronald John), 1927-; Format: Book; xviii, 210 p. : ill.,
maps ; 30 cm.
the tin did not run out
I know of mines abandoned 100 years ago that left nothing behind
except a few glass bottles and jars , they carried in and out
everything and left a hole
>
> --
> Palestine has been known by that name since at least
> the 5th c. BC when Herodotus reported that name.
> -- The Iron Webmaster, 4156
> http://www.giwersworld.org/environment/aehb.phtmla2
> Mon Jul 13 20:36:28 EDT 2009
Is lack of evidence actually EVIDENCE
WHY is there no black sand / tin where every geologists would
identify as prime target trap
Where all around in older sands tin is STILL mined
BUT there is none but a HOLE where nature would normally leave the
black sand from 3500 km long ANCIENT rivers system
WHO took the black sand and left behind a hole and WHEN
http://www.pir.sa.gov.au/__data/assets/image/0013/11281/state_minsands_sm.jpg
WHO built the well we call China mans well " and WHEN in a coastal
area inland from an area called by local Aboriginals " Tintinara "
http://images.google.com.au/imgres?imgurl=http://www.atlas.sa.gov.au/wsimages/envsa/maps/a20208.png&imgrefurl=http://www.atlas.sa.gov.au/go/resources/environments-of-south-australia/2/2/8&usg=__cw6bnMLMMiIzLaoYAPXLW7V_OaU=&h=150&w=200&sz=11&hl=en&start=17&sig2=gDHo7jg-YpMlsgNGBitsHQ&tbnid=fyevPs7SwJ7fVM:&tbnh=78&tbnw=104&prev=/images%3Fq%3Dtintinara%26gbv%3D2%26hl%3Den%26client%3Dfirefox-a%26rls%3Dorg.mozilla:en-US:official%26sa%3DG&ei=kfxbSv3TIYzmsAOFwqidCg
=========================================================
http://images.google.com.au/imgres?imgurl=http://www.samuseum.sa.gov.au/ngurunderi/ki2.jpg&imgrefurl=http://www.samuseum.sa.gov.au/ngurunderi/ng9htm.htm&usg=__flRj-8TRBzDClAmLcd_HtRX5-Sk=&h=197&w=266&sz=7&hl=en&start=1&sig2=C1UlcmElozs4XkymuJbcqA&um=1&tbnid=vPS8USsnYrdINM:&tbnh=84&tbnw=113&prev=/images%3Fq%3Dkartan%2Bstone%2Btools%26dq%3Dkartan%26hl%3Den%26sa%3DN%26sig%3Djun_QHnbm9yYAmyVRKarTGlJs1A%26um%3D1&ei=oP9bSqDVOZ_yswPm9u2lCg
The Continuing Mystery
Archaeologists are continuing to uncover new evidence. For example,
examination of pollen spores from ancient bushfires suggests that
Aborigines may have been living on the island until only 2,000 years
ago. The fate of the Kangaroo Island Aborigines is still a mystery. If
they left the Island, why and how did they leave? If they remained,
what became of them?
The site called "Hawks Nest' overlooks the Mouth of the River Murray
and is the ONLY way into the Lower Lakes and Coorong
From Hawkes Nest anybody approaching the mine by sea would be seen for
days before they found the Mouth Of the River Murray , and mountains
nearby on the mainland were used as look outs by local Native Peoples
using smoke signals since time immemorial a very easy mine site to
protect from other explorers , if you wanted to
Darwin123
> On Jul 14, 9:51 am, Matt Giwer <jul...@tampabay.rr.com> wrote:
> Hi Matt
> > Are you aware that our iron and aluminum production is only about 10% of what
> > we use? They are 90% recycled. Bronze was recycled.
>
> Indeed Matt, probably more than 90% was recycled 300years ago , but
> bronze WAS also being made in china India and Persia at the same
> time , the bronze from the Mediterranean was only about 10% of world
> production by population
>
> Bronze / tin was as valuable as gold at times ,and wars were waged
> just for the bronze , 3000 years ago it was about the same military
> values as Uranuium is today , the owners iof a tin mine would have
> been as paranoid about security as todays nuclear industry is
>
I think you should look into another formula for bronze. One form
of bronze is an alloy made of copper and arsenic. That is correct.
Really ancient bronze is made using arsenic instead of tin.
Arsenic as an element is far more common than tin. Arsenic-bronze
is not toxic. Once it is trapped in the copper, the arsenic is
harmless. So much of the bronze in the "bronze age" is made from
arsenic, not tin. Arsenic-based bronze is just as hard as tin based
bronze.
People may have started fighting over tin 3 KY ago, but I'll
bet they were fighting with arsenic-derived bronze weapons. When tin-
based bronze was invented, there was already a market for bronze.
However, the advantages of tin over arsenic are obvious. With a less
toxic ingredient, one could work harder at making more dangerous
weapons.
Of course, the toxicity of arsenic is a real problem when making
the bronze. That is one of the advantages of slave labor. The slave
turnover rate must have been severe when the first bronze weapons were
used. Not just the mining, but the making of the arsenic alloy must
have been dangerous.
I suggest when you do your research to look into which areas
have tin versus which areas have arsenic. You may find some
interesting interesting correlations. Maybe the people doing most of
the invading had arsenic, while the people doing the defending had
tin. Or maybe there is another correlation that I haven't thought of.
Matt Giwer
> On Jul 14, 9:51 am, Matt Giwer <jul...@tampabay.rr.com> wrote:
>> kangarooistan wrote:
>>> REVISIT , Subject: What is the evidence for Phoenician involvement
>>> with tin from Britain?
>> ...
>>> Hi Doug , and others from the earlier debate
>>> My research seems to lean heavily towards a South Australian source
>>> for the Bronze Age Tin supply
>>> All the know tin mines from antiquity would be unable to supply 10% of
>>> known world demand during the several thousand years of the bronze age
> Hi Matt
>> Are you aware that our iron and aluminum production is only about 10% of what
>> we use? They are 90% recycled. Bronze was recycled.
> Indeed Matt, probably more than 90% was recycled 300years ago , but
> bronze WAS also being made in china India and Persia at the same
> time , the bronze from the Mediterranean was only about 10% of world
> production by population
> Bronze / tin was as valuable as gold at times ,and wars were waged
> just for the bronze , 3000 years ago it was about the same military
> values as Uranuium is today , the owners iof a tin mine would have
> been as paranoid about security as todays nuclear industry is
If you expand the number of civilizations drawing upon the same source then
you have to explain none of them leaving a mention of it. As to keeping it
secret you cannot have multiple civilizations using the same source and
secrecy. But yes it would be a high value meaning there was going to be
fighting over it if there was more than one civilization using it. That would
leave many disparate reasons for mentioning it as well as additional evidence
of the fighting at the sight.
>> The other issue is one I believe I brought up when You first posted about
>> this sort of thing is IF there were such a mine in Australia the site would be
>> littered with bronze age trash, lost items, and pottery fragments. If there
>> were such things found there would be no doubt. On the other hand it is
>> impossible not to have left such evidence so if nothing is found it is not
>> what a bronze age mine.
> ----------------------------------------------
> Have you researched 3000 year old mines and noted a total lack of
> artifacts seen in the civilized world nearby , mines were the poorest
> laborers in the system , and if you research mines from any era you
> may be surprised to see very very very little artifacts , cities of
> ten thousand people are often only identified by discovering the
> temple all other evidence is missing from ancient cities , more so in
> the mines that served the city
Artifacts at mine sites is not particularly rare but the difference between
zero and one artifact is infinitely greater than between one and two. Being
poor excuses nothing. The tools for digging, transporting and refining had to
be there no matter how poor one imagines the workers. In practice such labor
transported from home would be slave or punishment labor. That would require
on the order of 1 guard per 5 workers; a high ratio because there is no
society around the site which would cooperate in the search and recapture of
escapees or to quell a revolt. The guards had to live better and have weapons.
>> You other problem is people always bring their food animals with them.
> ONLY if they needed food
The east coast of the US in colonial days had more food than one can easily
imagine. They brought their food animals. People ALWAYS bring their food
animals with them. Over the centuries you propose there would have been many.
Also food plants such as grain and grapes for wine. As you propose also India
and China they would do the same.
Even with local food only the trash middens would be full of their bones.
> There is abundant local food in South Australia and hereare MIDDENS
> that match the missing black sand / tin
> any examination of the lower lakes and coorong would reveal the black
> sand seen nearby is MISSING from the area we now call the Coorong ,
> WHY is is missing from the area any geologist surveying to landscape
> would identify as PRIME target for heavy mineral sands at the end of
> a 3500km river system
> http://www.arta.com.au/samaps/maps/coorong.gif
> Midden deposition rates increse during bronze age then decrease
> suddenly 2000 years ago , some ceased altogether , in articular the
> Kartan people guarding the mouth of the river murray from their
> lookout at " hawkes nest"
Middens are for the disposal of waste. The vast collection of waste from
centuries of workers dumping animal bones has to be there. If there are no
food remains then whatever they are you are not talking about cannot be called
a midden. You are giving an incorrect label.
> leaving behind the mysterious " kartan stone tools"
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------------
> Discoveries and Research - South Australian Museum
> Collected from the Hawks Nest site, 1930, and subsequently
> published, ... More Kartan tools were discovered in northern sites, in
> the Flinders Ranges, ...
> www.samuseum.sa.gov.au/page/default.asp?site=1&id... - Cached -
> Similar -
> -----------------------------------------------------------------------------
> AND dingoes
> Transcript:
> Robyn Williams: The dingo has been in Australia for nearly as long as
> the pyramids have stood in the sands of Egypt. But now the ancient
> Australian could become extinct. This Science Show special is
> presented by Jonica Newby.
>
> Eve Fesl: I feel that the dingo has been persecuted as we have been.
> The myths, the misconceptions, the actions – the dingo has suffered in
> the same way my people have.
>
> This then, is the real story of the dingo in Australia - and it begins
> on a boat 4000 years ago.
> http://www.abc.net.au/rn/science/ss/stories/s314366.htm
> --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
If you have a credible source which establishes the arrival of the dog only
4000 years ago I am interested in reading that. However even if that were the
case a genetic connection between the present day and a continental origin can
be readily established.
>> Our
>> food items are placental mammals. It is not possible to prevent some from
>> escaping into the wild. Horse were extremely valuable to the Spanish in the
>> New World. They did escape and go wild. Try as hard as you want, animals will
>> escape into the wild.
> WHY take animals to a mine site at the end of the world , the workers
> had plenty of food
The same reason the Brits brought their food animals. It is not rational to
argue away things which do not fit a preconceived idea. A theory is formulated
in light of all the facts. You did that same above in calling something a
midden when you declare there is no evidence of it being a midden.
> The ancient Phoenicians were traders not miners
> poor brown peoples did the mining and probably knew nothing of the end
> use of the black sand as a uranium miner is far removed from nuclear
> reactor even today , the gap between miners and cities was much
> greater back 3000 years ago
> as indeed this post started out by asking where is the evidence of tin
> mining 3000 years ago in UK
By this I presume you are arguing for slave labor of the Abos. You are just
making your problem worse. You have increased the number of guards required
and need even more to capture the locals and defend against reprisals.
Worse you are talking about a time when non-Australian exploiters, for lack
of a better word, had any particular military advantage over the locals. Again
you increase the number required.
> By default ??
>
> Tin WAS mined somewhere
That does not mean it was from any particular place. Arguing against known
sources does not establish Oz as the source.
> The only sizable tin deposits in the area in the ancient world was
> in UK
> It was assumed his MUST havebeen the sourse of the tin used in
> the ancient world
I am not aware that is true. It is reasonable to say the UK is the best known
source. That does not discount other sources not in Australia. So far as I am
aware the UK trade was based upon those mines being particularly rich sources
which minimized labor and maximized profits. The primary merchants in this
were the people of Tartessos who may or may not have been Phoenicians. The
city has been lost but is guessed to have been on the Atlantic coast of
Iberia. They did not reveal their source. When the tin deposits of Britain
became known it was assumed that was their source. I am aware of no evidence
for the assumption.
> MY CLAIM is 90% of the tin used during the bronze age was mined from
> the mouth of the River Murray
> here is a HOLE , that would ' fit " the mine size needed , there is a
> river long enough and old enough to build up the required amount of
> black sand / TIN
You may claim whatever you wish but without physical evidence you have not
but a claim.
> There is " MISSING " black sand where nature / geology says the black
> sands SHOULD be , and a lake system that matches a mine site BUT FAILS
> to match anything made by mother nature
> The ONLY way to create the Coorong / lower Lakes is man made
> Mother nature uses "different methods" to deal with river mouth sands
Your casual assertion of "only" likely has geologists laughing at you. Absent
physical evidence of people from beyond Oz having been there you have nothing
to interest an archaeologist. It is unclear what, other than native pride, is
the basis for your claim.
> There is some considerable evidence it was removed between 4000 and
> 2000 years ago by sea , examine midden deposition rates and location
> of middens
If there is, tell me what it is.
> who could have used a million tons of tin , 2000 years ago and removed
> it by sea without telling anybody
It is incredible to think "millions of tons" of tin were produced any time
before modern times. It is also incredible that ore would have been shipped
instead of refining the metal on the spot. That means there must have been
huge amounts of waste ore and who known how many smelting furnaces none of
which you have suggested are in evidence.
> IF it was Chinese or Indian people WHY did they suddenly STOP coming
> 2000 years ago ???
> http://catalogue.nla.gov.au/Record/76900
On the assumption they were coming at one time there is explanation as to why
they stopped coming as the ability to refine iron does not make the uses for
bronze disappear. I assume you know of the artistic and functional uses for
bronze such as in bells which not a Christian invention. The first cannon used
bronze for a century or more until the technology of making them out of iron
was perfected.
> The great Kartan mystery / Ronald Lampert | National Library of ...
> Available in the National Library of Australia collection. Author:
> Lampert, RJ (Ronald John), 1927-; Format: Book; xviii, 210 p. : ill.,
> maps ; 30 cm.
>
> http://images.google.com.au/imgres?imgurl=http://www.samuseum.sa.gov.au/ngurunderi/ki2.jpg&imgrefurl=http://www.samuseum.sa.gov.au/ngurunderi/ng9htm.htm&usg=__flRj-8TRBzDClAmLcd_HtRX5-Sk=&h=197&w=266&sz=7&hl=en&start=1&sig2=C1UlcmElozs4XkymuJbcqA&um=1&tbnid=vPS8USsnYrdINM:&tbnh=84&tbnw=113&prev=/images%3Fq%3Dkartan%2Bstone%2Btools%26dq%3Dkartan%26hl%3Den%26sa%3DN%26sig%3Djun_QHnbm9yYAmyVRKarTGlJs1A%26um%3D1&ei=oP9bSqDVOZ_yswPm9u2lCg
> why did they stop coming
> the tin did not run out
Nor did the demand for tin end.
> I know of mines abandoned 100 years ago that left nothing behind
> except a few glass bottles and jars , they carried in and out
> everything and left a hole
If you are talking about what you can see on the surface that is
unsurprising. That is why arkies dig and sift the soil.
>> --
>> Palestine has been known by that name since at least
>> the 5th c. BC when Herodotus reported that name.
>> -- The Iron Webmaster, 4156
>> http://www.giwersworld.org/environment/aehb.phtmla2
>> Mon Jul 13 20:36:28 EDT 2009
> Is lack of evidence actually EVIDENCE
It is not evidence. It is an elimination of a possibility.
> WHY is there no black sand / tin where every geologists would
> identify as prime target trap
Have you actually asked geologists or is this just your idea?
> Where all around in older sands tin is STILL mined
> BUT there is none but a HOLE where nature would normally leave the
> black sand from 3500 km long ANCIENT rivers system
> WHO took the black sand and left behind a hole and WHEN
No one would have shipped ore. It would have been refined to tin ingots and
those shipped. I would have to research it to make a definitive statement but
from memory most metals are found as ounces per ton of ore. Even it were at
100 kg per ton no one is going to ship ten times the weight instead of
refining it in place.
> http://www.pir.sa.gov.au/__data/assets/image/0013/11281/state_minsands_sm.jpg
> WHO built the well we call China mans well " and WHEN in a coastal
> area inland from an area called by local Aboriginals " Tintinara "
> http://www.planbooktravel.com.au/region-images/SA/limestone-coast/limestone-coast-400x272/chinamans-well.jpg/image_preview
>
> http://images.google.com.au/imgres?imgurl=http://www.atlas.sa.gov.au/wsimages/envsa/maps/a20208.png&imgrefurl=http://www.atlas.sa.gov.au/go/resources/environments-of-south-australia/2/2/8&usg=__cw6bnMLMMiIzLaoYAPXLW7V_OaU=&h=150&w=200&sz=11&hl=en&start=17&sig2=gDHo7jg-YpMlsgNGBitsHQ&tbnid=fyevPs7SwJ7fVM:&tbnh=78&tbnw=104&prev=/images%3Fq%3Dtintinara%26gbv%3D2%26hl%3Den%26client%3Dfirefox-a%26rls%3Dorg.mozilla:en-US:official%26sa%3DG&ei=kfxbSv3TIYzmsAOFwqidCg
> =========================================================
> http://images.google.com.au/imgres?imgurl=http://www.samuseum.sa.gov.au/ngurunderi/ki2.jpg&imgrefurl=http://www.samuseum.sa.gov.au/ngurunderi/ng9htm.htm&usg=__flRj-8TRBzDClAmLcd_HtRX5-Sk=&h=197&w=266&sz=7&hl=en&start=1&sig2=C1UlcmElozs4XkymuJbcqA&um=1&tbnid=vPS8USsnYrdINM:&tbnh=84&tbnw=113&prev=/images%3Fq%3Dkartan%2Bstone%2Btools%26dq%3Dkartan%26hl%3Den%26sa%3DN%26sig%3Djun_QHnbm9yYAmyVRKarTGlJs1A%26um%3D1&ei=oP9bSqDVOZ_yswPm9u2lCg
>
> The Continuing Mystery
> Archaeologists are continuing to uncover new evidence. For example,
> examination of pollen spores from ancient bushfires suggests that
> Aborigines may have been living on the island until only 2,000 years
> ago. The fate of the Kangaroo Island Aborigines is still a mystery. If
> they left the Island, why and how did they leave? If they remained,
> what became of them?
> The site called "Hawks Nest' overlooks the Mouth of the River Murray
> and is the ONLY way into the Lower Lakes and Coorong
> From Hawkes Nest anybody approaching the mine by sea would be seen for
> days before they found the Mouth Of the River Murray , and mountains
> nearby on the mainland were used as look outs by local Native Peoples
> using smoke signals since time immemorial a very easy mine site to
> protect from other explorers , if you wanted to
When archaeological evidence is found at this site you may have something.
Until then you have nothing at all. But go visit the site with a shovel and
sieve and start looking for artifacts. If you find enough to get serious
arkies to confirm it your name will be in the history books.
However, you are in fact wasting your time posting this stuff without
archaeological evidence.
--
There is no archaeological evidence of biblical Israel to
be found any place in Israel. Maybe they are looking in
the wrong place.
-- The Iron Webmaster, 4157
http://www.giwersworld.org a1
Tue Jul 14 21:34:57 EDT 2009
kangarooistan
Hi Darwin
Thanks for the suggestion mate
I was aware they used arsenic and did double check the topic
it seems arsenic was the only optionat times in many places especially
in the early broze age era
But itseems to me most people in most places for most of the so called
Bronze ages C4000 ya . to 1200 ya approx and even since seem to
prefer TIN over arsenic
there is a BIG BLACK hole in the history books , where did the "
missing " tin come from
the SOURSE of 90% of historys TIN is unidentified
thetin came from somewhere
We can look all around the world to see if there are any other
possibilities
I HAVE
There are NO OTHER POSSIBLE sources for a million tons of TIN
There MUST be a truly VAST hole at the mouth of some VAST river some
where
the site in South Australia matches every single criteria PERFECTLY
There can be no other explanation
VAST tin mining was carried out in South Australia between 4000BC and
perhaps 1200 BC ,
and they seem to have also mined some local gold as well
http://picasaweb.google.com/kangarooistan9/KangarooistanOldIronToolProofTurinPapyrusGoldMineIsInSouthAustraliaTestImages#
> I suggest when you do your research to look into which areas
> have tin versus which areas have arsenic. You may find some
> interesting interesting correlations. Maybe the people doing most of
> the invading had arsenic, while the people doing the defending had
> tin. Or maybe there is another correlation that I haven't thought of.
There was very limited use of arsenic in early bronze age but every
culture soon evolved the use of tin as the main alloy of copper for
most bronze , probably well over 90% of all bronze world wide was
based on a tin alloy
Arsenic was a very poor substitute
I note with some interest it seems a world wide rapid decline in
available TIN seems to be the reason for the bronze age collapse
AND the rise of less versatile Iron age
NOT because iron was better
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bronze_Age_collapse#Ironworking
Ironworking
Leonard R. Palmer suggested that iron, whilst inferior to bronze
weapons, was in more plentiful supply and so allowed larger armies of
iron users to overwhelm the smaller armies of bronze-using maryannu
chariotry.[7] This argument has been weakened of late with the finding
that the shift to iron occurred after the collapse, not before
[citation needed]. It now seems that the disruption of long distance
trade, an aspect of "systems collapse", cut easy supplies of tin,
making bronze impossible to make. Older implements were recycled and
then iron substitutes were used.
But because Bronze became less available
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bronze_Age_collapse
The Bronze Age collapse is the name given by those historians who see
the transition from the Late Bronze Age to the Early Iron Age, as
violent, sudden and culturally disruptive, expressed by the collapse
of palace economies of the Aegean and Anatolia, which were replaced
after a hiatus by the isolated village cultures of the Dark Ages
period of history of the Ancient Near East.
It is my proposal that there was ONE vast mine serving 90% of the
worlds TIN , wars in the middle east destroyed the phonetician traders
who operated the south Australian mine using local Aboriginal labour
to harvest the black and yellow sands in return for some consumable
commodity yet identified ,
[ possibly pituari /opium??? ]
http://www.drugtext.org/library/articles/912411.htm
It seems was mined in South Australia or the tin would still be where
nature should have placed it at the mouth of the 3,375 km long river
murray darling ,
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Murray-Darling_Basin
, probably by Phoenician traders from all available evidence,
who were over run in Canaan / Tyre in 1200 bc
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bronze_Age_collapse
http://www.samuseum.sa.gov.au/ngurunderi/ng9htm.htm
and the " tin " location of the South Australian mine was lost , the
vast amount of missing black sand / tin in a vast man made " hole"
that we now call the Coorong / lower lakes , / with the perfect match
in deposition rates seen in perfectly matched shell middens ALL POINT
toward the mine in South Australia as a PERFECT match in every
respect
http://www.arta.com.au/samaps/maps/coorong.gif
My theory completes a perfect picture in ancient history where there
is A BIG BLACK HOLE
What caused the bronze age collapse and FORCED the start of the iron
age ??
The linguistic map of Native peoples match a South Australian source
for the language map and boomerang culture that indicate somebody
introduced a language and return boomerangs from the SOUTH , not from
he NORTH as many still think
the spread of returning Boomerangs AND Parma nyungan language , both
seem to favor a " southern " entry point IMHO
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pama-Nyungan_family
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Australia_Boomerang_Distribution.PNG
I note that Mace and Nutmeg was traded from the Spice Islands not far
north of Australia for THOUSANDS of years ,
very few ever discovered where Nutmeg and Mace came from until 500
years ago , as its exact location was hidden by traders as TRADE
SECRET
The small Banda Islands were the world's only source of nutmeg and
mace. Nutmeg was traded by Arabs and sold to the Venetians for
exorbitant prices, but the traders did not divulge the exact location
of their source in the profitable Indian Ocean trade and no European
was able to deduce their location.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nutmeg
I suggest the mine in South Australia was like the " purple dye method
" a very closely guarded SECRET , seems Phoenicians kept trade
secrets very very secure
/
Archaeological data from Tyre indicate that the snails were collected
in large vats and left to decompose. This produced a hideous stench
that was actually mentioned by ancient authors. Not much is known
about the subsequent steps, and the actual ancient method for mass-
producing the two murex dyes has not yet been successfully
reconstructed; this special "blackish clotted blood" colour, which was
prized above all others, is believed to be achieved by double-dipping
the cloth, once in the indigo dye of H. trunculus and once in the
purple-red dye of M. brandaris.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tyrian_purple
Nobody has been able to make dark / deep Tyrian Purple since the
Phoenician times , as the method was a TRADE secret , so was location
of spice islands and mines , and the south Australian tin mines
kangarooistan
Hi Matt
> If you expand the number of civilizations drawing upon the same source then
> you have to explain none of them leaving a mention of it. As to keeping it
> secret you cannot have multiple civilizations using the same source and
> secrecy. But yes it would be a high value meaning there was going to be
> fighting over it if there was more than one civilization using it. That would
> leave many disparate reasons for mentioning it as well as additional evidence
> of the fighting at the sight.
My assumption is that Phoenetian TRADERS mined / harvested / traded
the black sand / gold with the local peoples and swapped the back
sands / tin with others all through their vast trade networks
It is possible only one ship or one family actually knew where the
mine was
I KNOW that the tea trade , the Nutmeg trade , / the Purple dye trade,
were held as very close secrets yet traded world wide for millenia ,
seems easy to keep a trade secret if only a few know where to find
them and few people ever sailed to south Australia and any who DID
would have been killed by the Kartan people watching over the site
from "Hawkes Nest" lookout and or the Mount Barker summit lookout ,
both overlook the entire area
>
> >> The other issue is one I believe I brought up when You first posted about
> >> this sort of thing is IF there were such a mine in Australia the site would be
> >> littered with bronze age trash, lost items, and pottery fragments. If there
> >> were such things found there would be no doubt. On the other hand it is
> >> impossible not to have left such evidence so if nothing is found it is not
> >> what a bronze age mine.
> > ----------------------------------------------
> > Have you researched 3000 year old mines and noted a total lack of
> > artifacts seen in the civilized world nearby , mines were the poorest
> > laborers in the system , and if you research mines from any era you
> > may be surprised to see very very very little artifacts , cities of
> > ten thousand people are often only identified by discovering the
> > temple all other evidence is missing from ancient cities , more so in
> > the mines that served the city
>
> Artifacts at mine sites is not particularly rare but the difference between
> zero and one artifact is infinitely greater than between one and two. Being
> poor excuses nothing. The tools for digging, transporting and refining had to
> be there no matter how poor one imagines the workers. In practice such labor
Kartan stone tools ARE the tools used by the miners
Best tell those who BOLDLY claim the mine site accepted as being
the TURIN gold mine
HAS NIL EVIDENCE of anything from the ear at Bir Umm wakhir , the
reported site of turin papyrus mine , dated pre roman times
http://www.tms.org/pubs/journals/JOM/9703/Meyer-9703.html
Iron tools, or metal of any sort, have not yet been found at Bir Umm
Fawakhir. However, metal and wood are so precious in the desert that
they would have been the first things removed.
Mortars, in the sense of deep basins for pounding, are also not
common at Bir Umm Fawakhir.
Those that have been recovered are limestone, which is unsuitable for
crushing quartz.
On the other hand, hundreds of crushing stones have been found on the
site.
http://nla.gov.au/anbd.bib-an42960427
They are made of rough blocks of basalt, granite, or porphyritic
granite with smooth upper surfaces that measure about 20 cm x 20 cm
square, with a depression pecked in the middle (Figure 5). Almost all
of the crushing stones were found in secondary context or loose on the
surface, but one is still in situ at the mouth of the fourth mine
inspected, with fist-sized and smaller chunks of quartz scattered
around it. It seems then, that the ore, mined in virtual darkness, was
immediately reduced at the mouth of the mine, and the pieces worth the
considerable effort of further reduction were picked out.
Apart from the sherds, which are thick on the ground and used as the
primary dating evidence,2,3,6 surface finds are sparse. In particular,
no written evidence has yet been recovered from the site aside from
the dipinti, which are dockets painted in red on the shoulders of wine
jars. Written in a cursive Greek hand and highly fragmentary, the
dipinti have so far yielded little information beyond showing the
presence of an imported luxury (i.e., wine) at a remote site.
With the potential exception of two possible community bake ovens, all
of the buildings mapped so far appear to be domestic. Crosses and
other Coptic symbols indicate that the population was Christian, but
no church has been located. Likewise, no administrative buildings,
storehouses, or workshops have been found, although there is some
reason to believe they existed closer to the modern road, where the
wadi wash is heaviest.
Meyer Fig. 3
Figure 3. A map of the Bir Umm Fawakhir vicinity showing the outlying
areas and quarries.
Particularly striking is the lack of any formal defenses, which is
surprising for a gold-producing site in a desert where security was
often a concern.
Only a couple of guardposts have been found on high ridges
overlooking the site. The more prominent guardpost lacks any formal
structures beyond a few rough walls for shade or windbreaks. and
commands a view of all three roads leading to the wells, many of the
mines, and much of the settlement.
> transported from home would be slave or punishment labor. That would require
> on the order of 1 guard per 5 workers; a high ratio because there is no
> society around the site which would cooperate in the search and recapture of
> escapees or to quell a revolt. The guards had to live better and have weapons.
Nonsense
phoenetians TRADED ,they did not run slaves, as you say that is
unproductive , they used local Aboriginals over a 2000 year period to
deliver several tons of black sand EVERY year , not the 300 years of
USA history but several THOUSANDS of years of trade by probably one or
two small island hopping ships a year from the spice Islands that
WERE visited by Phoenician / arab traders since ancient times ,
clearly the tin was included as PART of the cargo along with other
goods coming and going
the South Australian l mines were at the end of the trading routes and
even today if you live at the end of the road in many areas life it
very very different in the big city , life gets more and more
primitive the further you live from the center
Even in australia NOW there are places where there is no electricity
phone water mail shops TV or radio even a few hundred km from the
capital cities
How much more so 3000 years ago
>
> >> You other problem is people always bring their food animals with them.
> > ONLY if they needed food
.
Island hopping down from the Spice Islands can still be done on home
made wooden sail boats with EASE
The Darwin to Ambon Yacht Race was initially organised by the Cruising
Yacht Association of the Northern Territory Incorporated (CYANT).
The 600 mile downwind race attracted six yachts in its inaugural year.
http://www.darwinambonrace.com.au/race_history.htm
>
> The east coast of the US in colonial days had more food than one can easily
> imagine. They brought their food animals. People ALWAYS bring their food
> animals with them. Over the centuries you propose there would have been many.
> Also food plants such as grain and grapes for wine. As you propose also India
> and China they would do the same.
No mate
It seems they had no need to carry food , they had no need for slaves
or armies , they wanted black sand and gold in nice cheap yearly
supply for thousands of years
Not much different o ancient tea trade or silk trade , they guarded
the source of the tin , until the location was LOST about 1200 BC or
so years , ago when mining STOPPED until 1836 when europeans came
>
> Even with local food only the trash middens would be full of their bones.
the local middens do MATCH perfectly
the deposition rates and locations match the phoenetian mining
activity perfectly
EXACTLY as they should
>
> > There is abundant local food in South Australia and hereare MIDDENS
> > that match the missing black sand / tin
> > any examination of the lower lakes and coorong would reveal the black
> > sand seen nearby is MISSING from the area we now call the Coorong ,
> > WHY is is missing from the area any geologist surveying to landscape
> > would identify as PRIME target for heavy mineral sands at the end of
> > a 3500km river system
> >http://www.arta.com.au/samaps/maps/coorong.gif
> > Midden deposition rates increse during bronze age then decrease
> > suddenly 2000 years ago , some ceased altogether , in articular the
> > Kartan people guarding the mouth of the river murray from their
> > lookout at " hawkes nest"
>
> Middens are for the disposal of waste. The vast collection of waste from
> centuries of workers dumping animal bones has to be there. If there are no
> food remains then whatever they are you are not talking about cannot be called
> a midden. You are giving an incorrect label.
i know exactly WHAT a midden is mate
I know exactly where they are
They are EXACTLY where they should be
EXACTLY where the black sand SHOULD be but isnt
The deposition rates are clearly visible , they match PERFECTLY with
the bronze age and deposition rates drop away about 2000years ago
>
>
>
> > leaving behind the mysterious " kartan stone tools"
> > ----------------------------------------------------------------------------
> > Discoveries and Research - South Australian Museum
> > Collected from the Hawks Nest site, 1930, and subsequently
> > published, ... More Kartan tools were discovered in northern sites, in
> > the Flinders Ranges, ...
> >www.samuseum.sa.gov.au/page/default.asp?site=1&id... - Cached -
> > Similar -
> > -----------------------------------------------------------------------------
> > AND dingoes
> > Transcript:
> > Robyn Williams: The dingo has been in Australia for nearly as long as
> > the pyramids have stood in the sands of Egypt. But now the ancient
> > Australian could become extinct. This Science Show special is
> > presented by Jonica Newby.
>
> > Eve Fesl: I feel that the dingo has been persecuted as we have been.
> > The myths, the misconceptions, the actions – the dingo has suffered in
> > the same way my people have.
>
> > This then, is the real story of the dingo in Australia - and it begins
> > on a boat 4000 years ago.
> >http://www.abc.net.au/rn/science/ss/stories/s314366.htm
> > --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
.
> If you have a credible source which establishes the arrival of the dog only
> 4000 years ago I am interested in reading that. However even if that were the
> case a genetic connection between the present day and a continental origin can
> be readily established.
It is well established the dingo arrived about 4000 years ago ,both
the dingo and boomerang are absent from Tasmania since the sea level
rise of 10,000 years ago and BOTH seem to be younger than 10,000
years
Any good google will support that fact
Dingo
September 2002
http://www.environment.nsw.gov.au/animals/TheDingo.htm
The dingo is Australia's wild dog. As the largest native carnivorous
mammal in the country, it is a magnificent animal in its natural
habitat and plays a vital role in maintaining the balance within
ecosystems.
The dingo's origin is uncertain, though scientists now believe that it
is related to Asian and Middle Eastern wolves that probably arrived in
Australia between 3,500 and 4,000 years ago, transported by Asian
seafarers. The scientific name of the dingo was recently changed from
canis familiaris (domestic dog) dingo to canis lupus (wolf) dingo, to
show its relationship to the white-footed wolf of South-East Asia.
>
> >> Our
> >> food items are placental mammals. It is not possible to prevent some from
> >> escaping into the wild. Horse were extremely valuable to the Spanish in the
> >> New World. They did escape and go wild. Try as hard as you want, animals will
> >> escape into the wild.
> > WHY take animals to a mine site at the end of the world , the workers
> > had plenty of food
>
.
> The same reason the Brits brought their food animals. It is not rational to
> argue away things which do not fit a preconceived idea. A theory is formulated
> in light of all the facts. You did that same above in calling something a
> midden when you declare there is no evidence of it being a midden.
YOU assume I dont KNOW what a midden IS
Mate they are every where in south Australia , they are ALL protected
by LAW , they are EVERY WHERE aboriginal peoples lived for thousands
of years many many meters deep
Almost apart of the landscape here mate
Perhaps they are not so plentiful where you live but there are very
easy to identify and the art of dating and deposition rates are quite
well understood by locals
http://www.google.com.au/search?hl=en&client=firefox-a&channel=s&rls=org.mozilla%3Aen-US%3Aofficial&hs=7yx&q=coorong++middens&btnG=Search&meta=
http://images.google.com.au/images?hl=en&client=firefox-a&channel=s&rls=org.mozilla:en-US:official&hs=7yx&q=coorong%20%20middens&um=1&ie=UTF-8&sa=N&tab=wi
>
> > The ancient Phoenicians were traders not miners
> > poor brown peoples did the mining and probably knew nothing of the end
> > use of the black sand as a uranium miner is far removed from nuclear
> > reactor even today , the gap between miners and cities was much
> > greater back 3000 years ago
> > as indeed this post started out by asking where is the evidence of tin
> > mining 3000 years ago in UK
>
.
> By this I presume you are arguing for slave labor of the Abos. You are just
> making your problem worse. You have increased the number of guards required
> and need even more to capture the locals and defend against reprisals.
I see no evidence of slavery
I see no evidence of Phoenicians using slavery
>
> Worse you are talking about a time when non-Australian exploiters, for lack
> of a better word, had any particular military advantage over the locals. Again
> you increase the number required.
WHY do you keep talking slavery
the Aboriginal people traded minerals right through heir history they
mined and traded ochres and resins and spears and tools and had well
established trade routes , even with so called Maccassan fishermen up
north, trade was always the cheapest method
Tin was required in a regular steady fashion
SOME ancient projects may have used forced laborer , but trade seems
to be involved in the mining in South Australia
It is likely some transfer of genetic and linguistic and some base
would have been involved
>
> > By default ??
>
> > Tin WAS mined somewhere
>
> That does not mean it was from any particular place. Arguing against known
> sources does not establish Oz as the source.
But we need to find where the missing tin mine was
there is IMHO a vast amount of tin that was used and far far too few
tin mines from the era in question
It could be done in reverse
Take a world map and search for a site that could supply the tin
there are only a few tin mines even today , search them ALL and see
what you come up with
A VAST amount of tin is MISSING from the Murray MOUTH , yet tin is
found nearby , ask a geologist what he sees ODD in this picture
Heavy mineral sand IS MINED all around the mouth but non in the areas
we call the coorong lower lakes
ANY geologists could SEE the natural place for the MOST back sand /
tin after many millions of years will be found at the rivers mouth as
black sand at the mouth or down tide drift , as it still can be seen
in the older inland stranded beach lines ,so where is the black sand
at the mouth and what created the lower lakes / coorong , nature does
not create such features any where else ,
http://assets.panda.org/img/original/murray_darling.gif
SOMEBODY MINED IT ALREADY ,who and when
only the outer edges of the ancient river mouth black sand remain ,
and are mined today
http://www.pir.sa.gov.au/__data/assets/image/0013/11281/state_minsands_sm.jpg
3375km murray darling river flowing for many millions of years did
leave black sand behind , but NOT where nature always leaves it ,
somebody already got the so called " mother Lode " and left only the
holes
http://www.arta.com.au/samaps/maps/coorong.gif
>
> > The only sizable tin deposits in the area in the ancient world was
> > in UK
> > It was assumed his MUST havebeen the sourse of the tin used in
> > the ancient world
>
> I am not aware that is true. It is reasonable to say the UK is the best known
> source. That does not discount other sources not in Australia. So far as I am
> aware the UK trade was based upon those mines being particularly rich sources
> which minimized labor and maximized profits. The primary merchants in this
> were the people of Tartessos who may or may not have been Phoenicians. The
> city has been lost but is guessed to have been on the Atlantic coast of
> Iberia. They did not reveal their source. When the tin deposits of Britain
> became known it was assumed that was their source. I am aware of no evidence
> for the assumption.
we agree on this point
in most historic record of the bronze age they offer the UK as a
major supplier
I agree , "they" did mine tin and other stuff in the UK , and it is
likely the Phoenicians did transport trade it in antiquity
I claim the mines are simply not big enough to supply the demand
>
> > MY CLAIM is 90% of the tin used during the bronze age was mined from
> > the mouth of the River Murray
> > here is a HOLE , that would ' fit " the mine size needed , there is a
> > river long enough and old enough to build up the required amount of
> > black sand / TIN
>
.
> You may claim whatever you wish but without physical evidence you have not
> but a claim
.EXACTLY
That is WHY I checked ALL the facts , long ago matt
Eventually you too will get to see the FACTS
,only so much can be established online , the evidence needs on site
examination , then you too will eventually agree , but even online I
can " test ' the theory in case I have over looked something OR
somebody else has also noticed the site , or can offer any further
ideas , It cost little and harms nobody to examine the facts and
question the facts that DONT fit the accepted history , no doubt some
of my observations may be wrong , but I have tried hard to find
explanations
NOT find evidence to fit my version of history ,some people WANT me to
be wrong as it upsets THEIR ideas of history , some Aboriginal peoples
feel threatened and some white experts feel a bit concerned I may be
right and expose THEIR arrogance/ ignorance
It WILL be an embarrassment to many , once they discover the largest
mine in ALL HISTORY was sitting thereunder their noses all along , and
university trained EXPERTS refused to see it , even when shown to
them
their level of pride can never accept they failed tp notice it for so
long
There was INDEED ancient mining on a VAST scale here in South
Australia
The EVIDENCE is overwhelming
As you yourself claim
Much so called history does jump to conclusions , with very very
little evidence , like they did with Bir Umm Wakhir mine site ,
nothing pre roman at ALL , yet they STILL claim it as ancient Turin
gold mine from 3200years ago
The amount of EVIDENCE for Phoenician mining in South Australia is
over whelming
its only a matter of time until the FACTS are established
>
> > There is " MISSING " black sand where nature / geology says the black
> > sands SHOULD be , and a lake system that matches a mine site BUT FAILS
> > to match anything made by mother nature
The ONLY way to create the Coorong / lower Lakes is man made
> > Mother nature uses "different methods" to deal with river mouth sands
>
> Your casual assertion of "only" likely has geologists laughing at you.
So can you offer any REAL evidence of how nature could create the
Coorong ???
I already KNOW it was man made and HAVE the evidence , and it will
eventually be examined and found tobe valid
Thats how EVIDENCE works matt
You find it , then you test it , then you double check it to see if
its is genuine
ONLY then does it become EVIDENCE
Some fool claiming it does not exist , cos HE has nor seen it , is
NOT evidence , only REAL evidence counts , it matters NOT how many
people laugh , the more the better , so we can ALL see who is a REAL
expert and WHO is a pretend expert
Can you show me any other natural feature like the Coorong
Thought not
t
> physical evidence of people from beyond Oz having been there you have nothing
> to interest an archaeologist. It is unclear what, other than native pride, is
> the basis for your claim.
Its clear that your superiority prevents you even seeing , from
arrogance or ignorance mate , if all you can see is my personal
opinion , in a million ton of evidence , indeed the biggest mine in
ALL HISTORY , and still you can not "SEE "
future generations will indeed enjoy reading of just who was right and
WHO was wrong mate
The EVIDENCE will win in the end
those unwilling to examine the facts will ALL hang their heads in
shame
Its no wonder the site has remained un noticed for so long if You are
indeed as you claimed an Authority on ancient mining , you really do
disappoint me mate
BUT still many thanks for trying to debunk my theory ,every theory
need to be critically examined and I thank you for trying mate
IF you remain unconvinced I assume your mind is actually
closed ? .like most people, unable the "see " outside the square for
fear of upsetting the accepted version
You have at least made me double check ALL the evidence mate , and as
you know , ancient mining is indeed not something everybody even
thinks about or bothers to even look into , so I am grateful for you
time
, If you remain unconvinced there is nothing more I can offer online
at this time , you will need to wait until a REAL expert discovers I
am indeed largely right
even more EVIDENCE emerges every time I do re examine the FACTS ,
if a theory is true , it will eventually be accepted ,given time ,
Im very happy to let the experts expose their ignorance as every day
that passes is more egg on their faces and the institutions that
trained them
i do intend to expose them all in due time , we all KNOW how useless
the University experts in finance and banking and military are ALL
completely useless
NOW we can see how POOR the geology students have become
We desperately need a NEW education system ASAP as we have kneed got
nobody trained in western University that can actually think
>
> > There is some considerable evidence it was removed between 4000 and
> > 2000 years ago by sea , examine midden deposition rates and location
> > of middens
>
> If there is, tell me what it is.
There are hundreds of Middens all along the so called coorong , every
few hundred meters for over 100 km , mostly intact never touched ,
those that have been examined are well documented and available online
via google search
http://www.google.com.au/search?hl=en&client=firefox-a&channel=s&rls=org.mozilla%3Aen-US%3Aofficial&hs=7yx&q=coorong++middens&btnG=Search&meta=
Darwin123
continued to be used until far later.
We have a similar problem today Here in the USA. We have coal,
but little oil, on our lands. Coal is sort of dirty, so we tend to use
oil. Obama is pushing for "clean" coal. I wonder if the Egyptians had
a campaign for "clean" arsenic?
>
> But itseems to me most people in most places for most of the so called
> Bronze ages C4000 ya . to 1200 ya approx and even since seem to
> prefer TIN over arsenic
>
arsenic in making bronze. However, that doesn't mean most of the
bronze made with tin or arsenic. If they didn't have tin, then they
would have used arsenic.
You double checked, so maybe you know for sure. However, how do
you know all those artifacts were made with tin? Has anyone did an
elemental analysis of the bronze in these artifacts? A lot of the
bronze artifacts may have been made from arsenic. Also, how much was
unalloyed copper used to make bronze? Maybe some of those "bronze"
artifacts are plain copper. Copper is soft, but is hard enough to make
certain types of weapons. Stone could be used instead of bronze for
weapons. Maybe bronze was reserved for implements other than weapons.
1200 BC is about the time iron started to replace bronze as the
weaponmakers favorite metal. The Assyrians started to expand around
1200 BC. The Assyrians were the first major conquerors to use iron
weapons instead of bronze. So by that time, there was an alternative
to bronze.
However, your conjecture that the Canaanites imported tin from
Australia seems somewhat plausible to me. It makes me wonder what the
ancient Hebrews were using for bronze. Especially when they were in
that "Lets kill Cannaanites" stage of moral development.
I saw a special that speculated on how the ancient Hebrews made
the weapons used to conquer Canaan. The program claimed the copper was
all over the desert. The desert must have sounded for weeks with the
noise of the Hebrews forging the weapons. The speculation sounded very
disturbing to me. However, it was stimulating. I doubt the Canaanites
would have sold them the tin the Hebrews used to kill them with.
It seems to me the Hebrews must have used either copper or arsenic-
based bronze to make the weapons. Or maybe they threw manna into the
melt. In any case, tin-alloy bronze is not the only way to make a
copper-based weapon.
Barry Gray
ps.com>
Darwin123 <drose...@yahoo.com> wrote:
[snip]
>Maybe some of those "bronze"
> artifacts are plain copper. Copper is soft, but is hard enough to make
> certain types of weapons. Stone could be used instead of bronze for
> weapons. Maybe bronze was reserved for implements other than weapons.
One of the problems with this period is that the Greeks used the same
word chalcos for both copper and bronze, in the same way that today
many people use iron and steel synonymously, and most historians fail
to distinguish between iron and steel.
Flint weapons, for example arrow heads, are far sharper than bronze;
copper throwing spears are far softer than bronze so do more damage
against unarmoured targets (like dum-dums, where the exit hole is far
bigger than the entry hole) and also are damaged on impact so cannot
be thrown back.
> 1200 BC is about the time iron started to replace bronze as the
> weaponmakers favorite metal. The Assyrians started to expand around
> 1200 BC. The Assyrians were the first major conquerors to use iron
> weapons instead of bronze. So by that time, there was an alternative
> to bronze.
I think most historians put it a little earlier, with the Hittites.
> However, your conjecture that the Canaanites imported tin from
> Australia seems somewhat plausible to me.
Did you mean implausible?
It is possible for a metallurgist to identify the source of a metal
from the minute traces of other elements in it. Bronze from the early
bronze age in the Levant contains tin from both Cornwall and Malaysia
as well as other places in between but I am not aware of any published
and peer-reviewed metallurgical evidence to suggest Australian
sources.
The significance of the fight between David and Goliath is lost on
modern audiences, but it is is very much about the clash between iron
and bronze and has much to teach us about non-nuclear proliferation
treaties - see
http://www.barrygray.pwp.blueyonder.co.uk/Tutoring/David.html
--
Barry Gray
http://www.barrygray.pwp.blueyonder.co.uk
A child is a fire to be lit not a vessel to be filled
Jack Linthicum
> In message <12d8a55a-fe21-456b-9fb8-a10d0cb03...@i6g2000yqj.googlegrou
> ps.com>
> A child is a fire to be lit not a vessel to be filled
How about those tin ingots in the ships that wrecked?
http://www.jstor.org/pss/1356605
http://ancienthistory.suite101.com/article.cfm/lost_treasure
http://www.top-scubadiving.com/Sunken%20Ship%20Found%20Treasure.html
Matt Giwer
> On Jul 15, 11:39 am, Matt Giwer <jul...@tampabay.rr.com> wrote:
>
> Hi Matt
>> If you expand the number of civilizations drawing upon the same source then
>> you have to explain none of them leaving a mention of it. As to keeping it
>> secret you cannot have multiple civilizations using the same source and
>> secrecy. But yes it would be a high value meaning there was going to be
>> fighting over it if there was more than one civilization using it. That would
>> leave many disparate reasons for mentioning it as well as additional evidence
>> of the fighting at the sight.
>
> My assumption is that Phoenetian TRADERS mined / harvested / traded
> the black sand / gold with the local peoples and swapped the back
> sands / tin with others all through their vast trade networks
>
> It is possible only one ship or one family actually knew where the
> mine was
> I KNOW that the tea trade , the Nutmeg trade , / the Purple dye trade,
> were held as very close secrets yet traded world wide for millenia ,
> seems easy to keep a trade secret if only a few know where to find
> them and few people ever sailed to south Australia and any who DID
> would have been killed by the Kartan people watching over the site
> from "Hawkes Nest" lookout and or the Mount Barker summit lookout ,
> both overlook the entire area
I do not think I need to bother with the rest of your response to deal with
the absurdities you need.
It is absurd to suggest unrefined ore was traded. Regardless of the value of
tin the actual amount of tin to be found in the ore would not make trading for
ore profitable. Currents and prevailing winds would limit a ship to no more
than one round trip per year starting from even the most optimistic port used
by the Phoenician which would be on the northeastern shore of the Red Sea.
That is far from established and would depend upon a Nabatean connection and
of the two descriptions of their "kingdom" only one connects to the Red Sea.
It is no more than one of those things to keep in mind in hopes of new facts
supporting or precluding it.
Because the actual amount of tin to be found in the ore is so small it
negates your primary argument that not enough could have come from Britain.
You cannot have it both ways. Only refined tin would be worth the trip. A rich
ore might yield 2 to 4 kg of tin per metric ton. Tin is rarely as little as
10% of bronze meaning the production of 20 to 40 kg of bronze per ton would
have to pay for a year's travel.
Next you require an unheardof non-stop transit from some Phoenician port to
Oz. Normal transit would be port to port along the coast. A ship carrying tin
stopping in coastal ports and getting drunk and keeping a secret is nonsense.
That the drunken secret would be taken seriously is obvious as they were
stopping but trading nothing. Secrecy is no more credible than the idea
unrefined ore could pay for the travel.
If you have better expression of what you have said I will give them a read.
As it stands now you do not have a case worth further consideration.
--
The Jews first appear in history in 67 BC.
-- The Iron Webmaster, 4155
http://www.giwersworld.org a1
Thu Jul 16 00:13:52 EDT 2009
kangarooistan
wrote:
> > It is possible for a metallurgist to identify the source of a metal
> > from the minute traces of other elements in it. Bronze from the early
> > bronze age in the Levant contains tin from both Cornwall and Malaysia
> > as well as other places in between but I am not aware of any published
> > and peer-reviewed metallurgical evidence to suggest Australian
> > sources.
> How about those tin ingots in the ships that wrecked?
Hi jack
i note some of the tin ingots found of the coast have been tested but
the mine location was in dispute as it had very low lead content
Jews do a lot ofwork on the subject but nonly to prove jews invented
everything and to destroy all evidence that proves otherwise ASAP
befor people discover jews were only evera tiny tribe in a fewtiny
villages stuck between HUGE empires that really did exist
Its best to keep to the Bronze age pre greeko roman era as it seems
the South Australian mining actually STOPPED over 2000 years ago
there was a guard posted on what is now called Kangaroo Island over
looking the mouth of the ancient mine site
This guard post, known as Karta island by Aboriginal peoples was
abandoned COMPLETELY for over 2000 years
It would be possible to locate the mine IF pure tin from one mine was
used to make the ingot
Recycling and even adulteration may give mixed results
BUT it is probable that the smelter originally processing the black
sand into ingots from the VAST south Australian mine would indeed
liky only bother with its own supplies of ore
here MAY be some minor impurity that could be used as a indicator of
South Australian tin that " may " persist into recycled bronze, but it
would be a very expensive exercise
I have determined he mining activity in the lower lakes and Coorong
ceased over 2000 years ago and probably 3200 years ago at the Bronze
age collapse
Indeed I assume the loss of the South Australian VAST tin supply was
what created the need to develop the " Iron Age ' and the wars that
raged the middle east 3000 years ago
I myself feel the history of tin can be followed quite well since
greco roman era
My interest is the 2000 years pre greco roman era
I am advantaged by having lived and research the site in South
australia and can forgive skeptics as they may not even know what the
lower Murray lakes or Coorong actually look like
Any body who understands alluvial mining techniques will soon spot the
interesting fact that there is no mineral sands at the mouth of a
3375kmancient river but is mineral sands near by
Where the mineral sands SHOULD be are large holes , now filled with
water
MOST geologists would immediately ask who mined the back sand , and
WHEN
European sheeple think only dumb blacks lived here before smart whites
DISCOVERED the place , so they can not jump the hurdle and ask
WHO mined the black sand / tin that should have been there, When did
they mine it , WHY did they stop mining it ,who could have made
regular trips , in secret , and removed a million ton of tin from
the site , yes a million ton of tin in over 100 sq km open cast mine
Once they do the WORK they too will KNOW the so called Phoenicians
mined the site for about 2000 years , about 2000years ago , and
recovered about a million ton of black sand VERY VERY easily , from a
3375 km long ancient river
And the Kuarna Peramangk Kartan Martu and Milangi aboriginal peoples
helped the ancient Phoenicians mine the black sands AND speak almost
pure Phoenetian / ancient aramaic , until white settlement in the
1800s , as cultural isolates
and had nil outside contact and nil advancement from 3200 years
ago, as they had no need to advance , everything they needed was
easily available and without a need and without new ideas there was
no need to invent new stuff to invent new technology you need new
ideas and a problem that needs fixing
they had no need for bronze or iron weapons or even pottery
it seems very little real work has been done to find the tin mines
Greatest Mining Pioneer of Australia of all Times
Dear Mr Kanga,
It 's a waste of time discussing with those most sterile Universities
brainwashed STERILE retards, without any of them not even a single
water well to their credit, We have now to face straight on a willful
attempt at murdering a whole part of Humanity through massive heavy
metals pollutions, presented as flu vaccine ... in fact that Flu
vaccine with start an Holocaust of millions of people as a result.
Here is what I wrote back to some Geological retard called Husher a
while back ...as well as to the infamous antipodean Murdering swine
Sunny :
QUOTE
You are in fact a whole bunch of sterile Universivities brainwashed
deluded fools, unable to catch on with the reality of our Environment
& the ridiculous dogmas upon which your alleged science is built. Just
one point in your lunacy amongst a million, the one of your Accretion
mode of formation of the Earth :
Unfortunately for you, stoopid Retards non rotating Cosmic Bodies
have no magnetic field & hence are not dipole .... consequently they
cannot attract each other as your Theories pretend, but only repulse
each other as this so evident when watching astronauts drifting away
from Nasa crafts !
Further still the random of banging of aerolites on a moving 30 km/h
target to create a planet ( the model of course applying to all the
other) is so ludicrous than able to only convince Universisites mass
produced Zombies who have no room left for individual l thinking in
their data base, besides the well implanted EPROM flashed upon receipt
of their little degrees .... degrees indeed in notorious cretinism &
blindness !
... of course one important element as well of the Universities
formating & consecutive programming is the yellow intellectual
cowardice introduced in the Higher Slavish Education ... making the
intellectual slaves indeed so dependent on consensus to the point of
not daring lift a finger unless approved by the Sheeple mob of
Scholarzzz & Sci000ntists
Now here is my reply in another thread to that autralian Mining &
Political Criminals ' mole acting under half a dozen aliases indeed
*quote*
Sunny is the son of Anglican bitch mated with a dingo, hence a gutless
anonymous criminal & former BHP fitter ... of course as a backer of
well known australia Mining & Political Criminals that Antipodean
Manure & mentally deranged filth sees in maligning one of Australia
Greatest Pioneer a occasion to promote his yellow cowardice
illustrated in Vietnam as traitor to his own comrades & indeed a well
documented indirect murderer !
Further still I happen to have an australian nationality which
although I rejected & sent that Land of Bastards passport in the mouth
of degenerate WA Premier Court junior, is still effective !
I suspect that Sunny Filth real name to Tyrwhiit, after the Lying &
Thieving Geological Criminal who took all credit for the Great Sandy
Desert Discoveries which I made, while pretending having discovered
such from the air !
Textually we find in the Mining Criminals' official report of
Newmont / Newcrest / Boral & BHP the official account of the
discoveries of all the Great Sandy Desert shows : *
Quote
I spotted the site from the air and landed near by in the desert to
take samples
Tyrwhitt
Unquote
Needless to say that neither the Tyrwhitt Crriminal & australia
official mining Hero does explain how he survived the crash landing,
nor how he took off from the trackless, and & spinifex desert again ?
Of course that debased filth of Sunny, motivated by the hate of far
superior beings to his degenerate & sick state, find par proxy an
occasion to boost himself by praising & then assimilate himself to
successful Mining & Political Criminals
NEEDLESS TO SAY AS WELL THAT THIS WILL NOT PREVENT ME TO DISCLOSE SOON
A MOST EASY WAY TO CURE FLU OVERNIGHT ... and this could be the reason
for such stalking from the Australian Mining & Political Criminals '
mole ! Indeed there is a hell of cash to make with the coming &
imposed Flu vaccine & the consequences in millions of dead through the
world is of no consequence indeed
Sir Jean-Paul Turcaud
Australia Mining Pioneer
Discoverer & Legal Owner of Telfer Mine (Australia largest Copper &
Gold Mine)
Nifty (Cu) & Kintyre (U, Th) Mines, all in the Great Sandy Desert
Exploration Geologist & Offshore Consultant
Founder of the True Geology
~ Ignorance is the Cosmic Sin, the One Never Forgiven ~
for background info.
http://www.tnet.com.au/~warrigal/grule.html
http://users.indigo.net.au/don/tel/index.html
http://users.indigo.net.au/don/tel/nac.html
http://members.iimetro.com.au/~hubbca/turcaud.htm
http://www.abc.net.au/rn/talks/bbing/stories/s28534.htm
"True Geology" Foundation Document
http://www.americanchronicle.com/articles/69327
"Turcaud Bath" as a free gift to Suffering Humanity
http://www.americanchronicle.com/articles/view/107947
kangarooistan
> I do not think I need to bother with the rest of your response to deal with
> the absurdities you need.
Clearly you dont under stand what black sand actually is matt
It is very very very easy to find and refine from ancient beach
deposits using simply gravity to seperate once you locate where nature
places it
This is a pan of BLACK SAND / unrefined tin straight from beach sand
deposit,
http://geology.com/minerals/photos/cassiterite-600.jpg
you can wash or dry blow it in many old beach sands , it was the
MAIN source of tin for most of history , the easy stuff was mined
first , long ago , now they mine the lesser desirable areas
heavy+mineral+sand+tin+ore
http://images.google.com.au/images?gbv=2&hl=en&client=firefox-a&rls=org.mozilla%3Aen-US%3Aofficial&sa=1&q=heavy+mineral+sand+tin+ore&btnG=Search+images&aq=f&oq=
Once you understand how heavy mineral sand mining / black sand /
unrefined TIN is produced you will see how a 3375 km long ancient
river delivers white quartz sand and a tiny an mount of black sand to
the mouth of many rivers with wave action concentrating the tin /
black sand into quite profitable zone at high tide mark down the beach
from the river mouth
I
nature should have placed it at the mouth of the 3,375 km long river
murray darling ,
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Murray-Darling_Basin
this map shows where BLACK SAND is mined today
http://www.pir.sa.gov.au/__data/assets/image/0013/11281/state_minsands_sm.jpg
the amount of white quartz sand can indicate the amount of black sand
in the original deposit
the age and length of the river, can be a guild to potential yield,
the yield can be great in the deposit zone, and clearly was a very
very good mine in its day , 3000years ago they got the easy stuff
hey STILL mine black sand nearby in older stranded beach lines at
Tintiara
>
> It is absurd to suggest unrefined ore was traded. Regardless of the value of
> tin the actual amount of tin to be found in the ore would not make trading for
> ore profitable. Currents and prevailing winds would limit a ship to no more
> than one round trip per year starting from even the most optimistic port used
> by the Phoenician which would be on the northeastern shore of the Red Sea.
The demand would limit the supply, but as demand and mining occurred
of 2000 years from 4000 BC to 2000BC and assume steady demand needed a
steady supply its only a few hundred ton a year to serve WORLD demand
It was estimated in January 2008 that there were 6.1 million tons of
economically recoverable primary reserves, from a known base reserve
of 11 million tons.
Below are the nations with the 10 largest known reserves.
World Tin Mine Reserves and Reserve Base (tons) Country ↓
Reserves ↓ Reserve Base ↓
China 1,700,000 3,500,000
Malaysia 1,000,000 1,200,000
Peru 710,000 1,000,000
Indonesia 800,000 900,000
Brazil 540,000 2,500,000
Bolivia 450,000 900,000
Russia 300,000 350,000
Other 180,000 200,000
Thailand 170,000 250,000
Australia 150,000 300,000
Democratic Republic of the Congo NA NA
the mines in UK could not yield more than a few ton a year IMHO , they
dont get a mention now days on tin mining , yet we can see where they
did mine in the UK 3000 years ago
WHERE else can we SEE an ancient mine10 times the size of the UK
mines , ONLY ONE SITE FITS EVERY REQUIREMENT IN EVERY RESPECT
The Coorong and lower lakes in South Australia FITS like a glove
And in due time it will be accepted as the LARGEST mine on earth in
ALL history
http://www.arta.com.au/samaps/maps/coorong.gif
As itsnot going away I only need wait until the Chinese and Iranian
geologists examine the site
without the cultural baggage ANY trained geologist could "see " the
facts for what they are
Most western people will Never admit they failed o notice the biggest
mine in ALL history sitting under their noses
Until they I can only gather more and more evidence to expose how
pathetic todays experts really are
future generations can they read how to NOT have a closed mind
Future generations will know WHY western civilization collapsed
they are blind
Current demand is only even with many other metals and plastics
available
Darwin123
> > However, your conjecture that the Canaanites imported tin from
> > Australia seems somewhat plausible to me.
>
> Did you mean implausible?
At first glance it seemed reasonable. I am not a scholar in this
area. Some of your comments turned me around. It doesn't seem to me as
plausible as it did before. I like your discussion though.
kangarooistan
Some body certainly DID remove about a million ton of back sand / tin
from the lower Lakes / Coorong between 2 and thousand years ago
There is vast amounts of evidence to prove the largest mine in ALL
world history is what we now see as the lower Murray Lakes and
Coorong are indeed he flooded remains if man made open cast heavy
sand mining activity
There is abundant local food in South Australia and here are MIDDENS
that match the missing black sand / tin
any examination of the lower lakes and coorong would reveal the black
sand seen nearby , see this map
http://www.pir.sa.gov.au/__data/assets/image/0013/11281/state_minsands_sm.jpg
black sand has been deposited hundreds of km inland as beach receded
leaving many stranded beaches with black sand ,
that prove there SHOULD be black sand of equal volumes at the mouth
and there isnt , WHO took it
ANYBODY who fails to seethe bleeding obvious EVIDENCE is unworthy of
calling themselves a geologist or an Archaeologist
Future generations will read these messages with compete AMAZEMENT ,
at least they will understand WHY western empires COLLAPSED , if the
experts still cannot SEE the largest mine on earth , in ALL history is
sitting right under their noses and they STILLrefuse to "SEE "
granted WHO mined it can be examined and debated, but the mine itself
and the dates of mining are hard EVIDENCE, he who bit remains open ,
but the local Aboriginals speaking Martu languages pretty much settles
that question IMHO
http://docs.google.com/Doc?docid=dcgk9t7p_12g2xp5tdk&hl=en
Martu may refer to
* an ancient Middle Eastern people; see Amorite.
* the deity they worshipped; see Amurru.
* a Sumerian god; see Martu
* an Australian Aboriginal people.
http://www.pir.sa.gov.au/minerals/geology/mineral_resources/commodities/mineral_sands
Beach sands contain the most important accumulations of these
minerals; wave action deposits sand on the beach, and the heavy
minerals are concentrated when backwash carries some of the lighter
minerals such as quartz back into the sea. Onshore winds which
preferentially blow lighter grains inland can lead to higher
concentrations of heavy minerals at the front of coastal dunes. Old
‘fossil’ shorelines known as strandlines can now be found some
distance inland.
The principal heavy minerals of commercial interest are rutile,
ilmenite, leucoxene and zircon:
* Rutile (TiO2)/ TIN , is a red to black, naturally occurring
titanium dioxide with a theoretical TiO2 content of 100%, but
impurities such as Fe2O3 and Cr2O2 reduce this to 93–95%.
Australia is a major producer of heavy minerals. During 1998, deposits
in Australia, 58% of the world’s rutile concentrate, 2.4 Mt of
ilmenite (27%), and 0.40 Mt of zircon (40%; ABARE Australian Commodity
Statistics).
South Australian deposits
No heavy mineral deposits are currently mined in South Australia but
exploration has highlighted the prospectivity of the Murray and Eucla
Basins, and several deposits are in an advanced exploration stage.
Tertiary
minsands_murraybasin.jpg (9330 bytes)
Quaternary sand dunes of the Murray Basin (courtesy Murray Basin
Minerals NL).
Murray Basin
The Early Pliocene Loxton Sand and overlying Parilla Sand formations
have been the target of mineral sand exploration in the Murray Basin.
During the 1980s one of the world’s largest accumulations of heavy
minerals was delineated by drilling in the basin near Horsham in
Western Victoria (Fig. 1). The WIM 150 deposit is a sheet-like
accumulation formed in an offshore environment. Grain sizes are very
fine, typically around 50 µm (0.05 mm), which is about a quarter of
that in many producing deposits. Despite initial optimism, the deposit
proved difficult to beneficiate, and has not been mined commercially.
More recent exploration has focused on the search for coarser
strandline deposits amenable to beneficiation using conventional
techniques.
In 1986–87, Aberfoyle Resources Ltd drilled the Mindarie, Perponda and
Mercunda prospects near Karoonda in South Australia, where heavy
minerals have accumulated in northwest–southeast-trending Pliocene
strandlines. A renewed phase of exploration commenced in 1998, with
Murray Basin Minerals NL defining 11 mineralised strandlines in the
Karoonda area (Fig. 2). In September 2000, the company announced the
results of a first-stage feasibility study based on a resource of 65.6
Mt containing 3.3% heavy minerals using a 1.32% heavy mineral cutoff.
This includes a mineral inventory, adjusted for likely mining losses
and dilution, of 32.8 Mt at 4.2% heavy minerals. The mineral
assemblage is predominantly ilmenite with significant zircon, rutile
and leucoxene.
minsands_zircon.jpg (14238 bytes)
Murray Basin heavy mineral concentrate dominated by zircon (colourless
rounded grains) and rutile (larger yellow-brown grains) from high-
grade beach or placer deposits in Tertiary sediments underlying the
Quaternary
dunes (courtesy Murray Basin Minerals NL).
Eucla Basin
Marine transgression during the Late Eocene or Early Oligocene was a
major period of dune building which formed the Ooldea, Barton and
Paling Ranges from sediments deposited by the rivers draining into the
basin from the north. Heavy minerals, comprising predominantly
ilmenite and zircon, are present within the Middle Eocene Hampton
Sandstone and Ooldea Sand, the main dune-forming units. The best
prospect outlined was Immarna, with two heavy mineral strandlines.
Representative bulk samples showed the upper strandline in Ooldea Sand
to contain 2.77% heavy minerals, and the lower strandline in Hampton
Sandstone to have 0.94%. Heavy mineral assemblages are dominated by
ilmenite (86 and 66% respectively) and zircon (11 and 26%
respectively). The Immarna deposit remains undeveloped and is
currently held by North Ltd.
is MISSING from the area we now call the Coorong ,
WHY is is missing from the area any geologist surveying to landscape
would identify as PRIME target for heavy mineral sands at the end of
a 3500km river system
http://www.arta.com.au/samaps/maps/coorong.gif
Midden deposition rates increase during bronze age then decrease
suddenly 2000 years ago
Matt Giwer
> On Jul 16, 1:40Â pm, Matt Giwer <jul...@tampabay.rr.com> wrote:
>
>> Â Â Â Â I do not think I need to bother with the rest of your response to deal with
>> the absurdities you need.
>
> Clearly you dont under stand what black sand actually is matt
> It is very very very easy to find and refine from ancient beach
> deposits using simply gravity to seperate once you locate where nature
> places it
Clearly you have no concept of the issues you are trying to discuss.
I have tried to point out the problems. You do not address them. You do not
even recognize them. There is a reasonable response. You did not make it.
I have no secrets here. You say I do not understand black sand. You simply
have to post the fraction of tin in per ton of this black sand and then show
the rest of what you are claiming.
Please do so.
--
Palestine has been known by that name since at least
the 5th c. BC when Herodotus reported that name.
-- The Iron Webmaster, 4156
http://www.giwersworld.org/holo3/ a12
Thu Jul 16 23:04:15 EDT 2009
kangarooistan
> kangarooistan wrote:
> > On Jul 16, 1:40Â pm, Matt Giwer <jul...@tampabay.rr.com> wrote:
>
> >> Â Â Â Â I do not think I need to bother with the rest of your response to deal with
ilmenite, leucoxene and zircon: the price of TIN is too low at present
The name derives from the Greek kassiteros for "tin" - or - from the
Phoenician word Cassiterid referring to the islands of Ireland and
Britain, the ancient sources of tin - or - as Roman Ghirshman (1954)
suggests, from the region of the Kassites, an ancient people in west
and central Iran. the TIN content is of small value in HMS / black
sand
Black sands contain a range of rare minerals of high value today and
their TIN content is of smaller commercial value ,other than gravity
concentration NO FURTHER on site processing is needed even today and
its clear they would have likely sent off shore o refine although in
due time have several ancient copper mines that were mined but my
research is too raw to go public at this time
* Rutile is a red to black, naturally occurring titanium dioxide
with a theoretical TiO2 content of 100%, but impurities such as Fe2O3
and Cr2O2 reduce this to 93–95%.
> >> the absurdities you need.
Hi Matt , I see you have difficulties in reading mate
or is it Maths you need help with ??
Cassiterite is a tin oxide mineral, SnO2. It is generally opaque but
is translucent in thin crystals. Its luster and multiple crystal faces
produce a desirable gem. Cassiterite is the chief ore of tin today.
[edit] Occurrence
Most sources of cassiterite today are found in alluvial or placer
deposits containing the resistant weathered grains.
Cassiterite is a widespread minor constituent of igneous rocks. The
Bolivia veins and the old exhausted tiny workings of Cornwall,
England, are concentrated in high temperature quartz veins and
pegmatites associated with granitic intrusives.
The current major tin production comes from placer or alluvial
deposits in Malaysia, Thailand, Indonesia, and Russia. Hydraulic
mining methods are used to concentrate the fine particles of ore.costs
of recovery rather than size of deposit decide where tin is mined
I am not skilled at computers or even writing
i AM skilled at mining in south Australia , I have VAST experience in
the State and 50 years of research of this site mate , and my father
and grandfather owned mines in the state of south Australia in the
century before last / 1800s
I do KNOW the subject and site in south australia well vell mate
I DO forgive your skepticism and WELCOME any criticism of any point in
my claim , indeed thats WHY I post the topic , as I know all sound
theories grow stronger as they are further tested
It ALWAYS takes decades to educate EXPERTS after a life time of being
wrong most simply can not make the jump
EGO DEFENCE ?? , not facts seems their problem
Thank GOD experts eventually die and make way for fresh minds who
laugh at yesterdays experts ,
my sons and grandsons are aware and help with field trips , and they
KNOW what the truth is , as did my father and grandfather as we ALL
have studied the sites in question , there is no hurry , EXPERT are
very very slow learners
the TRUTH will in time even reach the so called EXPERTS attention ,
once the get out into the field away from their books written by fools
who never ever set foot in the state yet INSIST I dont know what Im
talking about because some EXPERT in some other country KNOWS there
was no mining of tin in South Australia as he READS it in a book
somewhere
I thought I had dealt with your earlier question re ore purity , very
HAPPY to restate my POV on the question though
>
> > Clearly you dont under stand what black sand actually is matt
> > It is very very very easy to find and refine from ancient beach
> > deposits using simply gravity to seperate once you locate where nature
> > places it
>
> Clearly you have no concept of the issues you are trying to discuss.
You seem to confuse tin re mined in UK with black sand gravity
seperated from beach deposits mate
Black sand can be extracted with a gold pan and yield almost PURE
tin / black sand in minutes,unlike the tin ore of UK mined from hard
rock mining , that needs smelting to purify
>
> I have tried to point out the problems. You do not address them. You do not
> even recognize them. There is a reasonable response. You did not make it.
I feel I have satisfactorily dealt will ALL your valid questions matt
I did ignore your suggestion re DRUNK sailors as there is no evidence
sailors from other cultures were drunkards ,indeed it seems hey NEVER
drank in such records as I can find
>
> I have no secrets here. You say I do not understand black sand. You simply
> have to post the fraction of tin in per ton of this black sand and then show
> the rest of what you are claiming.
Thought I told you mat
Black sand can be extracted from beach sand deposits by hand using dry
blowing and gravity separation and yield black sand that it over 90%
TIN
There ARE pictures HERE
http://docs.google.com/View?id=dcgk9t7p_57cb6s8pgk
>
> Please do so.
This site lists all available black sand in South Australia, its a
GOVT site
http://www.pir.sa.gov.au/minerals/geology/mineral_resources/commodities/mineral_sands
This map proves there are MILLIONS of tons of black sand immediately
adjacent the Lower Lakes / Coorong ,but NONE at the present mouth or
in the lakes
http://www.pir.sa.gov.au/__data/assets/image/0013/11353/mineral_sands_fig_2.gif
In 1986–87, Aberfoyle Resources Ltd drilled the Mindarie, Perponda and
Mercunda prospects near Karoonda in South Australia, where heavy
minerals have accumulated in northwest–southeast-trending Pliocene
strandlines.
A renewed phase of exploration commenced in 1998, with Murray Basin
Minerals NL defining 11 mineralised strandlines in the Karoonda area
(Fig. 2). In September 2000, the company announced the results of a
first-stage feasibility study based on a resource of 65.6 Mt
containing 3.3% heavy minerals using a 1.32% heavy mineral cutoff.
This includes a mineral inventory, adjusted for likely mining losses
and dilution, of 32.8 Mt at 4.2% heavy minerals. The mineral
assemblage is predominantly ilmenite with significant zircon, rutile
and leucoxene.
Basic MATHS prove somebody removed over a million tons of back sand
from the areas along the present coast/ lower Lakes / coorong
the black sand is easily gravity removed from the beach sand and
YIELDS ORE OF WELL OVER 90% tin , market forces set the potential to
profitably recover the black sand in each site and this can change
over time as supply and demand affect costs and value of tin
BUT you only need ship the back sand concentrate as they do TODAY for
off site refining , that is often not ever required as it can be added
straight to copper ore and smelted kn ingots , but I suspect ship
wrecks carrying black sands may escape notice in some ship wreak sites
as HMS would quickly sink into the local sands at wreck sites
>
> --
> Palestine has been known by that name since at least
> the 5th c. BC when Herodotus reported that name.
> -- The Iron Webmaster, 4156
> http://www.giwersworld.org/holo3/a12
> Thu Jul 16 23:04:15 EDT 2009
These minerals occur in very low concentrations in a variety of
igneous and metamorphic rocks, but being chemically and physically
resistant to weathering, and having comparatively high specific
gravity, they tend to accumulate in placer deposits in river channels
or along coastal shorelines. Beach sands contain the most important
accumulations of these minerals; wave action deposits sand on the
beach, and the heavy minerals are concentrated when backwash carries
some of the lighter minerals such as quartz back into the sea. Onshore
winds which preferentially blow lighter grains inland can lead to
higher concentrations of heavy minerals at the front of coastal dunes.
Old ‘fossil’ shorelines known as strandlines can now be found some
distance inland.
The principal heavy minerals of commercial interest are rutile,
ilmenite, leucoxene and zircon:
* Rutile (TiO2) is a red to black, naturally occurring titanium
dioxide with a theoretical TiO2 content of 100%, but impurities such
as Fe2O3 and Cr2O2 reduce this to 93–95%.
* Ilmenite (FeTiO3) is black and opaque when fresh, but has
typically undergone some weathering and iron removal, so TiO2 contents
are between 45 and 65%.
* Leucoxene is the name given to highly altered ilmenite. Grains
are brown or grey with a waxy lustre and TiO2 content of 68%.
Barry Gray
ups.com>
kangarooistan <kangaro...@gmail.com> wrote:
> On Jul 17, 2:22�am, Darwin123 <drosen0...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>> On Jul 15, 6:07�pm, Barry Gray <barryg...@blueyonder.co.uk> wrote:
>>
>>>> � � �However, your conjecture that the Canaanites imported tin from
>>>> Australia seems somewhat plausible to me.
>>
>>> Did you mean implausible?
>>
>> � � �At first glance it seemed reasonable. I am not a scholar in this
>> area. Some of your comments turned me around. It doesn't seem to me as
>> plausible as it did before. I like your discussion though.
> Some body certainly DID remove about a million ton of back sand / tin
> from the lower Lakes / Coorong between 2 and thousand years ago
> There is vast amounts of evidence to prove the largest mine in ALL
> world history is what we now see as the lower Murray Lakes and
> Coorong are indeed he flooded remains if man made open cast heavy
> sand mining activity
Huge Snip
> Midden deposition rates increase during bronze age then decrease
> suddenly 2000 years ago
What you say makes huge sense even if you are not very polite about
those with whom you disagree. We know that there was trade in tin
between the Near East and Malaysia at this time because we can
identify the trace elements from Malaysian tin in Near eastern bronze.
Trade in tin with Australia at this time is not infeasible; what is
totally lacking is any *metallurgical* evidence of Australian tin in
Near Eastern bronze, and not through any lack of searching.
kangarooistan
> In message <d0f65528-c3c3-4227-8027-151530486...@x25g2000prf.googlegro
> ups.com>
> kangarooistan <kangarooist...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>
>
> > On Jul 17, 2:22 am, Darwin123 <drosen0...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> >> On Jul 15, 6:07 pm, Barry Gray <barryg...@blueyonder.co.uk> wrote:
>
> >>>> However, your conjecture that the Canaanites imported tin from
> >>>> Australia seems somewhat plausible to me.
>
> >>> Did you mean implausible?
>
> >> At first glance it seemed reasonable. I am not a scholar in this
> >> area. Some of your comments turned me around. It doesn't seem to me as
> >> plausible as it did before. I like your discussion though.
> > Some body certainly DID remove about a million ton of back sand / tin
> > from the lower Lakes / Coorong between 2 and thousand years ago
> > There is vast amounts of evidence to prove the largest mine in ALL
> > world history is what we now see as the lower Murray Lakes and
> > Coorong are indeed he flooded remains if man made open cast heavy
> > sand mining activity
>
> Huge Snip
>
> > Midden deposition rates increase during bronze age then decrease
> > suddenly 2000 years ago
>
> What you say makes huge sense even if you are not very polite about
> those with whom you disagree. We know that there was trade in tin
> between the Near East and Malaysia at this time because we can
> identify the trace elements from Malaysian tin in Near eastern bronze.
Hi Barry
Sorry if I offend with my reply mate
I KNOW the evidence WILL hold , I have examined it ALL many many
times , its sound
I KNOW there was indeed a million tons of tin mined , in the BIGGEST
MINE IN ALL HISTORY , 2000 plus years ago here in South australia
I KNOW its only a matter of time until the experts are educated mate
Please dont confuse knowledge of FACTS with bluntness mate , and I
forgive those who laugh , EXCEPT experts who are PAID from the public
purse for decades , yet FAIL to even bother looking at the greatest
archaeological discovery for decades
you make a very good point mate re testing ancient bronzes for trace
minerals from local tin
BUT I am unable to do this side of the research
i am an expert on the ground in south australia , and have done all
in my power with a tiny budget against the established experts , with
a very great deal of resources who could if they wish fill this
missing piece of the jig saw
I may be wrong in some aspects of my theory , and it may indeed not
be the so called Phoenicians traders, even though the evidence seems
over whelming
You can only read the words I type
i have held the evidence in my hands , and dug through meters of man
made mining waste , that sits there for ANYBODY to see , walked the
several HUNDRED km around the Coorong / lower lakes an SEEN the
thousands upon thousands of middens meters deep
dug and held the black sands all over the state , in " ancient
strandlines " , examined the lay ut of the Lakes and Coorong and Kumah
Angk / HQ where it seems the dredged sand was taken by small boats ,
and fed through a sluice in the main river chanell at the mouth , to
remove the black sand and leave the white barren sand wash away into
the beaches seen today along the coast
EVER box is ticked as if it was a PERFECTLY balance modern sand mining
venture , every last piece fits PERFECTLY ,
Online words carry no wieght at all ,it may be all CRAP , except it
canall be examined and tested
I have , MANY times
there is NO DOUBT and it really is now only a matter of time until
even the most experienced expert will be forced to accept he FACTS
Once you examine ALL the evidence anybody would be as i am
TOTALLY convinced the largest mine in ALL HISTORY is what we call the
Lowe Lakes / coorong and over a million ton of black sand was mined
over 2000years ago
There is VAST VAST VAST amounts of evidence that nobody even wants to
even look at, millions of tons of mine waste are hard to ignore ,
granted to most its just a hole or a hill , but he a REAL geologist or
a REAL Archaeologist there is NO EXCUSE to fail to notice except
incompetence or EGO DEFENSE ?? , simply unable to accept they could
possibly miss such a big thing , it must therefore be MY IMAGINATION
that is wrong
They KNOW Im wrong cos they read it in a book
i KNOW in years to come people will be AMAZED at how incompetent
today's Geologists and archaeologists really are , like our bankers
and military and intelligence experts got it SO BLOODY WRONG for so
long
I have not bothered to include all my findings , as they are so vast
nobody could be expected to believe the entire picture , much of which
can only be seen on site to comprehend the deposition rates and
location of look out towers and river flows
SIZE is mind boggeling , compared o so called Tin mines in UK , they
are 1000 times bigger , at the time the flow of tin would dwarf the
UK output many many times with easy won black sands simply washed from
the best locations in the lower River channel it would have been deep
and easy pickings INDEED, like the early gold rushes in California got
virgin gold streams FULL of heavy metals to shovel up by the ton
Have you seen the maps of stranded ancient black sands lines , HMS /
black sand EVERYWHERE except where mother nature always put sit ,
mother nature must have made a mistake ??? or somebody already mined
it long ago , so she accidentally left a funny shaped hole that just
ACCIDENTALLY fits well with an open cast sand mine site
http://images.google.com.au/images?q=south%20australian%20tin%20heavy%20mineral%20sand%20deposits&oe=utf-8&rls=org.mozilla:en-US:official&client=firefox-a&um=1&ie=UTF-8&sa=N&hl=en&tab=wi
> Trade in tin with Australia at this time is not infeasible; what is
> totally lacking is any *metallurgical* evidence of Australian tin in
> Near Eastern bronze, and not through any lack of searching.
Nobody has EVER looked at the possible links between ancient bronzes
and south Australian Tin , a costly time consuming task well beyond me
at this stage , there is little interest in even investing a few
minutes time by ANYBODY , let alone a million dollars and a full time
researcher who would over tun all recorded history IF its true , the
jews WONT let that happen , they " own " the history dept in most
western countries and DESTROY everything that upsets their version
it COULD be done , but as recycling was done at ALL times , it would
be hard find bronze that was not mixed , UNLESS a minor trace
pollutant could be isolated from the South Australian TIN , that was
missing from all others , once again very very time consuming and
expensive beyond my means
Clearly they noted the unusually low lead content from the boat in the
Mediterranean
The local aboriginal place names from the general area do show a very
close resemblance to words / names used in he middle East a that time
Granted its not easy , and its a different set of skills to mining ,
but the linguistic linls can be seen in the Aboriginal languagesmore
that you may think
Its HARD to prove an aboriginal word is the same but place names and
personal names of the tribes , Preamangk , Martu, Kaurna . Kartan ,
Even the shape of he lower Lakes and Coorong ,exactly match what you
would see if , you designed a modern mine to extract HMS from the site
today
With a watchtower on Kangaroo Island and main port / loading at the
mouth on what is Now Hindmash Island , of GREAT interest is still
called " kumah angk" by local Aboriginals
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hindmarsh_Island
IF this was a VAST mine
Kumah Angk / Hindmarsh Island would have been HQ to monitor the site
The name Kumah Angk turns up an interesting possibility as does the
Per Amun Angk" tribe from near by Mount Barker
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Peramangk
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kaurna
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Martu
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kartan
>
> --
> Barry Grayhttp://www.barrygray.pwp.blueyonder.co.uk
Greatest Mining Pioneer of Australia of all Times
> In message <d0f65528-c3c3-4227-8027-151530486...@x25g2000prf.googlegro
> ups.com>
> A child is a fire to be lit not a vessel to be filled
Mr Kanga is spot on on all his premises and the conclusion drawn from
it....
He is further a special man with a whole pedigree of excellent &
indeed exceptional Australia Mining Pioneers ... and contrarily to any
of you, he derives his appraisal of the SA deposits in the Lower
Lakes & Coorong from hard field work & nor from specialized literature
ref. !
Contrarily to what Barry asserts, Mr Kanga is being extremely civil
in replying to arguments bearing no weight in term of Mining expertise
& to illustrate this point, Barry 's comment Quoted below is in this
light completely ludicrous
Quote
> what is
> totally lacking is any *metallurgical* evidence of Australian tin in
> Near Eastern bronze, and not through any lack of searching
etc
Unquote
Indeed when speaking of such subject one must know the background and
the background of Tin IN AL CASES is in crystalline INTRUSIVE rock
formations, further whatever main deposits are concerned those Placers
indeed Heavy Sands either in Australia, Malaysia, Cornwall, Bolivia
are in all cases completely foreign to the place where there are
found .... NOT washed by rivers indeed anymore than the immense sand
deposties of the of the Kalahari or the Tarim Basin in the
Taklamakan.
§ Note Sorry Mr Kanga, but the True Geology demonstrates indeed that
although local deposits are present the Heavy Sands found out of
Carnarvon have nothing to do with the De Grey or the Cascoyne
rivers... but you will see that this element weight in your favour
Indeed all Cassiterite, Platinum, Diamonds, Illemenite, Gold placers
in the world are definitively erratics, or in clear completely
concentrated through huge catastrophe spanning the whole world in a
continuous process, to which the Fluid Engineering approach drawing
upon the masses of unconsoiladated sedimentation reaching like in
Biramania 3000m in thickness CONCLUDES ON dynamics of 400 Km/h and
height of waves of 2 000 m. The True Geology has incidentally a model
for that type of Quarternary deposits, it is called the CYCLONIC
GRANULOMETRIC PATTERN OF PLEISTOCENE SEDIMENTATION ... to which
understanding only free & superior minds can reach.
In conclusion, not only Mr Kanga is completely right , but the
refuting arguments or the opposition are, as said already, falling
flat since there is NO Australian tin anymore than there is a ZA or
Belgium say type of Quartz sand !
Last but not least & as has been established by a noted Physician &
Archeology French professor basing his conclusion on the Sothic year
( seat of the ancient Egyptian Calendar) the present Egyptian
Chronology is 1500 years off course.
With kind regards to you Mr Kanga as well as to the other blokes
glavallin
> Mr Kanga and you are just a pair of nuts that prevails these newsgroups.
(I hope you have proven lineage for claiming your knighthood. It would be
interesting that another decendant were to challenge. )
>
> Sir Jean-Paul Turcaud
> Australia Mining Pioneer
> Discoverer & Legal Owner of Telfer Mine (Australia largest Copper &
> Gold Mine)
> Nifty (Cu) & Kintyre (U, Th) Mines, all in the Great Sandy Desert
> Exploration Geologist & Offshore Consultant
> Founder of the True Geology
>
--
Wey Hey were like monkeys...I can use tools too!
kangarooistan
<australia.mining-pion...@neuf.fr> wrote:
>
> Mr Kanga is spot on on all his premises and the conclusion drawn from
> it....
> He is further a special man with a whole pedigree of excellent &
> indeed exceptional Australia Mining Pioneers ... and contrarily to any
> of you, he derives his appraisal of the SA deposits in the Lower
> Lakes & Coorong from hard field work & nor from specialized literature
> ref. !
Hi Sir JPT
thanks for your kind words of support mate
AND for your special insights into this subject that certainly
requires a deep understanding of Australia and critical thinking , of
which you are well endowed with both mate
You are one of the few online geologists who do indeed know the
Australian mining scene mother nature and the ancient nature of the
Australian landscape compared to many other continents well mate , and
the fun and games they play with the truth
I suspect many others need to rely on books or observations based on
the mining they have seen
I suspect many fail to comprehend the MASSIVE size of a mines and ore
bodies in Australia compared to a mine in most countries , the
ancient landscape has been slowly worn away over several billion years
and some of the oldest rocks in the world can bee seen sitting at
ground level , not buried under thousands of meters of sediment
The landscape is very ancient and mineral deposits have had longer to
accumulate undisturbed by comparison with many other countries ,
I suspect many think dionosaur bones are ancient , when they are very
very recent in historic geology
A map shows white for areas where its tertiary/ / recent and much of
australia is billions YA
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Ausgeolbasic.jpg
The Gawler Craton covers approximately 440,000 square kilometres of
central South Australia.
Its Precambrian crystalline basement crustal block was cratonised ca.
1550-1450 Ma.
Prior to 1550 Ma the craton comprised a number of active Proterozoic
orogenic belts extending back in time to at least 2450 Ma.
Dinosaurs (Greek: δεινόσαυρος, deinosauros) were the dominant
vertebrate animals of terrestrial ecosystems for over 160 million
years, from the late Triassic period (about 230 million years ago)
until the end of the Cretaceous period (65 million years ago), when
most of them became extinct in the Cretaceous-Tertiary extinction
event. The 10000 living species of birds may be classified as
dinosaurs
Dinosaurs extinction was reported as about 230 million years ago
Rocks in Australia have been wearing away 2450 million years for ten
time that
The hard or insoluable minerals have slowly moved down the rivers and
ended up at the mouth and washed along the beach
Hence the build up of HMS in South Australia , which has seen little
change in its basic landscape compared to other continents that see
more earth quakes and sediments bury the older rocks
While the earths crust is all 4 plus billion yrs old , most has been
worn away several times , while the Australian continent has vast
areas of very ancient land scapses quite different to what most people
can comprehend
Geological history
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Geology_of_Great_Britain#Geological_history
The Gneisses, the oldest rocks in Great Britain or Ireland, date from
at least 2,700 Ma (Ma = million years ago) in the Archaean period of
this era, the Earth itself being about 4,600 Ma old. They are found in
the far north west of Scotland and in the Hebrides, with a few small
outcrops elsewhere. Formed from rock originally deposited at the
surface of the planet, the rocks were later buried deep in the Earth's
crust and metamorphosed into crystalline gneiss.
South of the Gneisses are a complex mixture of rocks forming the North
West Highlands and Grampian Highlands in Scotland, as well as the
Connemara, Donegal and Mayo mountains of Ireland.
These are essentially the remains of folded sedimentary rocks that
were originally 25 km thick, deposited over the gneiss on what was
then the floor of the Iapetus Ocean.
The process started in about 1,000 Ma, with a notable 7 km thick
layer of Torridon Sandstone being deposited about 800 Ma, as well as
the debris deposited by an ice sheet 670 Ma.
> Contrarily to what Barry asserts, Mr Kanga is being extremely civil
> in replying to arguments bearing no weight in term of Mining expertise
> & to illustrate this point, Barry 's comment Quoted below is in this
> light completely ludicrous
> Quote> what is
> > totally lacking is any *metallurgical* evidence of Australian tin in
> > Near Eastern bronze, and not through any lack of searching
>
> etc
> Unquote
>
.
> Indeed when speaking of such subject one must know the background and
> the background of Tin IN AL CASES is in crystalline INTRUSIVE rock
> formations, further whatever main deposits are concerned those Placers
> indeed Heavy Sands either in Australia, Malaysia, Cornwall, Bolivia
> are in all cases completely foreign to the place where there are
> found .... NOT washed by rivers indeed anymore than the immense sand
> deposties of the of the Kalahari or the Tarim Basin in the
> Taklamakan.
While weathering does not require rivers , they do serve as a
concentrator like a natural sluice
Indeed dry blowing desert sands is still done , messy work though
http://www.liswa.wa.gov.au/wepon/mining/html/003543d.html
http://www.liswa.wa.gov.au/wepon/mining/html/003542d.html
>
> § Note Sorry Mr Kanga, but the True Geology demonstrates indeed that
> although local deposits are present the Heavy Sands found out of
> Carnarvon have nothing to do with the De Grey or the Cascoyne
> rivers... but you will see that this element weight in your favour
Weathering continues and deposits of hard and or heavy minerals can
and do concentrate in deserts without much rain or rivers, in some
deposits over billions of years valuable alluvial deposits can build
up without rivers , but rivers are the big transporters as you will
agree ,
>
> Indeed all Cassiterite, Platinum, Diamonds, Illemenite, Gold placers
> in the world are definitively erratics, or in clear completely
> concentrated through huge catastrophe spanning the whole world in a
> continuous process, to which the Fluid Engineering approach drawing
> upon the masses of unconsoiladated sedimentation reaching like in
> Biramania 3000m in thickness CONCLUDES ON dynamics of 400 Km/h and
> height of waves of 2 000 m. The True Geology has incidentally a model
> for that type of Quarternary deposits, it is called the CYCLONIC
> GRANULOMETRIC PATTERN OF PLEISTOCENE SEDIMENTATION ... to which
> understanding only free & superior minds can reach.
>
> In conclusion, not only Mr Kanga is completely right , but the
> refuting arguments or the opposition are, as said already, falling
> flat since there is NO Australian tin anymore than there is a ZA or
> Belgium say type of Quartz sand !
Technically tin is tin , as you say
But Sir JPT
TIN is found with contaminants that could probably identify the source
of the tin
Especially from 3000 years ago when refining was less precise
It would help HEAPS if we could build up a picture based on trace
minerals to trace metal back to source , I KNOW they can do it easily
BUT the cost and the benefits seem to prohibit a full survey at
present
I have many mines documented as of interest , that may indeed have
been mined in antiquity , but have ALSO been worked in recent times
and most evidence as been lost
Most antiquities are happy to know who made it and when and where it
was found
I hope one day they discover that we here the metal was mined may
assist in completing the big picture
It would have difficulty with recycling of metal may give false
reading though ,
Of interest would be dating items known to have been made in the era
to see if any changes seen in metallurgy may highlight changes in
other historic events
> Last but not least & as has been established by a noted Physician &
> Archeology French professor basing his conclusion on the Sothic year
> ( seat of the ancient Egyptian Calendar) the present Egyptian
> Chronology is 1500 years off course.
>
.
> With kind regards to you Mr Kanga as well as to the other blokes
>
And to you also Sir Jean-Paul Turcaud
Australia Mining Pioneer
> Discoverer & Legal Owner of Telfer Mine (Australia largest Copper &
> Gold Mine)
> Nifty (Cu) & Kintyre (U, Th) Mines, all in the Great Sandy Desert
> Exploration Geologist & Offshore Consultant
> Founder of the True Geology
>
> ~ Ignorance is the Cosmic Sin, the One Never Forgiven ~
>
> for background info.http://www.tnet.com.au/~warrigal/grule.htmlhttp://users.indigo.net.au/don/tel/index.htmlhttp://users.indigo.net.au/don/tel/nac.htmlhttp://members.iimetro.com.au/~hubbca/turcaud.htmhttp://www.abc.net.au/rn/talks/bbing/stories/s28534.htm
> "True Geology" Foundation Documenthttp://www.americanchronicle.com/articles/69327
Barry Gray
ps.com>
kangarooistan <kangaro...@gmail.com> wrote:
Huge snip
>>
>> What you say makes huge sense even if you are not very polite about
>> those with whom you disagree. We know that there was trade in tin
>> between the Near East and Malaysia at this time because we can
>> identify the trace elements from Malaysian tin in Near eastern bronze.
> Hi Barry
> Sorry if I offend with my reply mate
> I KNOW the evidence WILL hold , I have examined it ALL many many
> times , its sound
>> Trade in tin with Australia at this time is not infeasible; what is
>> totally lacking is any *metallurgical* evidence of Australian tin in
>> Near Eastern bronze, and not through any lack of searching.
> Nobody has EVER looked at the possible links between ancient bronzes
> and south Australian Tin
I think they have, but perhaps not hard enough.
More complete reply by e-mail.
Huge snip
--
Barry Gray
Barry Gray
ups.com>
Greatest Mining Pioneer of Australia of all Times
> On Jul 17, 10:36�am, Barry Gray <barryg...@blueyonder.co.uk> wrote:
>> In message <d0f65528-c3c3-4227-8027-151530486...@x25g2000prf.googlegro
>> ups.com>
>> � � � � � kangarooistan <kangarooist...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>> What you say makes huge sense even if you are not very polite about
>> those with whom you disagree. We know that there was trade in tin
>> between the Near East and Malaysia at this time because we can
>> identify the trace elements from Malaysian tin in Near eastern bronze.
>> Trade in tin with Australia at this time is not infeasible; what is
>> totally lacking is any *metallurgical* evidence of Australian tin in
>> Near Eastern bronze, and not through any lack of searching.
> Mr Kanga is spot on on all his premises and the conclusion drawn from
> it....
> He is further a special man with a whole pedigree of excellent &
> indeed exceptional Australia Mining Pioneers ... and contrarily to any
> of you, he derives his appraisal of the SA deposits in the Lower
> Lakes & Coorong from hard field work & nor from specialized literature
> ref. !
> Contrarily to what Barry asserts, Mr Kanga is being extremely civil
> in replying to arguments bearing no weight in term of Mining expertise
> & to illustrate this point, Barry 's comment Quoted below is in this
> light completely ludicrous
> Quote
>> what is
>> totally lacking is any *metallurgical* evidence of Australian tin in
>> Near Eastern bronze, and not through any lack of searching
> etc
> Unquote
Reply sent by e-mail
--
Barry Gray
Eric Stevens
I'm sorry Kanga, while you sound a reasonable bloke I have to say that
I think you are knowingly giving us a line of bull.
There is no evidence on the Internet that South Australia has ever had
any significant quantity of tin and certainly there is none that it
was ever found at the Coorong. See
http://www.pir.sa.gov.au/__data/assets/pdf_file/0003/94746/PDAC_Handout.pdf
where you will not find any refrence to tin resources. See also
http://outernode.pir.sa.gov.au/minerals/geology/mineral_resources/commodities/tin
which specifically deals with tin. This site contains a map similar to
the style of map linked at your URL above but shows no tin anywhere
near the Coorong. I don't know where your map comes from but, whatever
it shows, it isn't showing tin.
If you were right, and there had been massive amounts of tin in the
Coorong you would see modern miners in there extracting all the tin
left behind in the tailings from your alleged miners of 2000 years
ago. But it isn't happening now and it wasn't happening then.
--- snip ----
Eric Stevens
kangarooistan
> > that prove there SHOULD be black sand of equal volumes at the mouth
> >and there isnt , WHO took it
>
> I'm sorry Kanga, while you sound a reasonable bloke I have to say that
> I think you are knowingly giving us a line of bull.
Hi Eric
NOW you are ready to " discover ' the real evidence mate
Now you HAVE familiarized yourself with the basic facts we CAN unpack
the REAL evidence
Until a person actually examines the evidence it is of no real gain to
debate the topic
You HAVE found the ' key " that can unlock the secret mate
We usually say Bronze is an alloy of Copper and Tin , varying but say
90 / 10
I claim Bronze is an alloy of copper and black sand , they called this
black sand cassiterite/ we call it tin , they probally had no real
idea of the exact chemical make up of the black sand/ cassiterite /
tin
During the Bronze age they only knew that by mixing there 2 minerals
made interesting alloys , the black cassiterite dugg out of mines in
UK is the same black sands washed out of eroded mountains seen in
south australia, with minor trace impurities
At times they only had a use for this mineral as an alloy for copper
to make Bronze , its only market / value for many thousands of years
known as TIN
Recently they have developed markets for the IMPURITIES , and some
locations have these IMPURITIES in amounts of commercial value greater
than the TIN , and at a price where mining can be profitable , no
longer bothering with the value of the tin but chasing the
otherminerals in the black sand that was an impurity in bronze
I know if you examine any Bronze you WILL find the so called TIN had
impurities
They knew little about the many minor impurities in black sand that we
today can identify and extract
>
> There is no evidence on the Internet that South Australia has ever had
> any significant quantity of tin and certainly there is none that it
> was ever found at the Coorong. Seehttp://www.pir.sa.gov.au/__data/assets/pdf_file/0003/94746/PDAC_Hando...
> where you will not find any refrence to tin resources. See alsohttp://outernode.pir.sa.gov.au/minerals/geology/mineral_resources/com...
> which specifically deals with tin. This site contains a map similar to
> the style of map linked at your URL above but shows no tin anywhere
> near the Coorong. I don't know where your map comes from but, whatever
> it shows, it isn't showing tin.
Eric , if youexamine the maps you will notice some tin was found , and
some HMS ,heavy Mineral sands , were found andsome records showing
other rare heavy mineral
They are ALL found in or as BLACK SANDS , hence my preferred name ,
some deposits DO contain tin , but the value of the tin on world
markets means other minerals are the target , and processing costs of
extracting the tin from that site are such that at times ,, other
minerals contained in the ore are FAR more valuable
Many discoveries are HUGE but uneconomic a todays prices
>
> If you were right, and there had been massive amounts of tin in the
> Coorong you would see modern miners in there extracting all the tin
> left behind in the tailings from your alleged miners of 2000 years
> ago. But it isn't happening now and it wasn't happening then.
>
> --- snip ----
>
> Eric Stevens
Your statement above is actually part of my evidence mate
There Is massive amounts of HMS just in land in ancient beach sands
that are simply not where nature always leaves HMS
SOMEBODY indeed did take them a very long time ago
If you give a geologist a map and geological history of south
australia and ask him to identify WHERE nature would leave the HMS he
will identify the richest finds WILL be exactly where the lower Lakes
are seen
There is now only holes where any geologist will say nature ALWAYS
eaves the HMS
The Older stranded beaches inland just do STILL have HMS
http://www.dpi.nsw.gov.au/__data/assets/image/0004/94981/hotspot_2006_4.jpg
http://outernode.pir.sa.gov.au/__data/assets/image/0012/11352/mineral_sands_fig_1.gif
WHERE and WHY are there no HMS at the present mouth
Looking / thinking / speaking of mining 3000years ago , we need to
read the word "TIN" as cassiterite or better still HMS or black sand
TODAY when we say TIN
We mean http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tin
Tin is obtained chiefly from the mineral cassiterite, where it occurs
as tin dioxide, SnO2.
During the Bronze age when we read TIN they meant cassiterite / black
sand , the only sourse of what turned copper into bronze
Black sand was at times more valuable than GOLD during the Bronze age
hence the bronze age COLLAPSE when tin stopped flowing EMPIRES
imploded slowly as they destroyed each other to steal their last
reserves of bronze / tin once the SOUTH AUSTRALIAN site location was
"lost" , {in 1200 BC from my research}
Tin was never again easily won until recent discoveries of black
sands
More recently the minor impurities of rare minerals are what is
creating renewed interest in mining the black sands
the FACT there are no real volume of BLACK SANDS in the Lower Lakes
and COORONG are indeed EVIDENCE somebody mined it long ago
on a truly VAST VAST VAST scale
I bet you still dont appreciate the SIZE of the lower lakes and
coorong
HUNDREDS of sq km m billions of tons of sand washed from Hindmarsh
Island sluices
The Uk mines would ALL fit in the South Australian mine / lower lakes
coorong 10 times over
Black sand / cassiterite sitting there waiting to be washed and loaded
up , hardly any effort with small boats able to carry the sands to the
Sluices set up on Hindmarsh Island to let the River Murray wash away
the white sands out to see
Google up some maps of Hindmash Island / lower Lakes and examine them
to SEE the evidence is still there, simply design a ancient sand mine
and you can SEE where it fits EXACTLY even using modern maps of the
area
We are talking VAST VAST sand mining mate
There is NO DOUBT , its really only a matter of time , I doubt there
will be the money or interest to establish the evidence into a
presentable case for decades
There is little profit and huge resistance
It took 200 years to establish the fact there WERE people living in
australia before whites " discovered it " in 1788
How long will it take white christians to admit brown middle east
people mined the LARGEST mine in ALL HISTORY in South Australia 3000
years ago
Is going to take decades at least mate , most white christians KNOW
that nothing of values happened before they invented stuff in the last
few centuries
They have PROOF of it in their books that Captain Flinders was the
FIRST person to discover South australia in 1803 , thousands of
EXPERTS all agree nobody discovered South australia before 1803 , it
says so in a million books
not one person in a million actually CARES to question the FACTS ,
they are very happy with things just as they are , to question my
theory creates FAR too many other possibilities to re assess ancient
history and jews and christian western world simply dont like people
questioning THEIR version of history and will resist all attempts at
revision at any cost , and by any means
thee are a number of questions that can only be answered by accepting
there was indeed vast vast black sand / hydraulic sluicing ""mines"
in South Australia and they did use the black sand for SOMETHING 3000
years ago , probably bronze
http://www.mdbc.gov.au/subs/dynamic_reports/foundation_report/1.html#wp999512
http://www.mdbc.gov.au/subs/dynamic_reports/foundation_report/6.html
http://www.mdbc.gov.au/subs/dynamic_reports/foundation_report/images/fig62.jpg
http://images.google.com.au/imgres?imgurl=http://www.mdbc.gov.au/subs/dynamic_reports/foundation_report/images/fig62.jpg&imgrefurl=http://www.mdbc.gov.au/subs/dynamic_reports/foundation_report/6.html&usg=__CoFD1G6MHtie1GNmfPr94NR-7b8=&h=190&w=175&sz=13&hl=en&start=34&sig2=YjHAcQxClkh9v7J-_Ot9dA&tbnid=ZW2_Eshcrv693M:&tbnh=103&tbnw=95&prev=/images%3Fq%3Dhindmarsh%2Bisland%2Blower%2Blakes%26gbv%3D2%26ndsp%3D20%26hl%3Den%26client%3Dfirefox-a%26rls%3Dorg.mozilla:en-US:official%26sa%3DN%26start%3D20&ei=hUNhSrvbNYHVlAfV9PzIDw
http://outernode.pir.sa.gov.au/__data/assets/image/0012/11352/mineral_sands_fig_1.gif
Eric Stevens
But you have given no evidence of this. Please don't cite that map at
me again as, what ever it represents, it does not appear to be tin in
any of its forms.
>
>They are ALL found in or as BLACK SANDS , hence my preferred name ,
>some deposits DO contain tin , but the value of the tin on world
>markets means other minerals are the target , and processing costs of
>extracting the tin from that site are such that at times ,, other
>minerals contained in the ore are FAR more valuable
>
>Many discoveries are HUGE but uneconomic a todays prices
>
>
>>
>> If you were right, and there had been massive amounts of tin in the
>> Coorong you would see modern miners in there extracting all the tin
>> left behind in the tailings from your alleged miners of 2000 years
>> ago. But it isn't happening now and it wasn't happening then.
>>
>> � �--- snip ----
>>
>> Eric Stevens
>
>Your statement above is actually part of my evidence mate
>
>
>There Is massive amounts of HMS just in land in ancient beach sands
>that are simply not where nature always leaves HMS
They seem to be unknown to the state government.
The same applies to the coal. The fact that there is no coal there is
'proof' that somebody has taken it away and that there must once have
been huge quantities in the Coorong.
>I bet you still dont appreciate the SIZE of the lower lakes and
>coorong
>HUNDREDS of sq km m billions of tons of sand washed from Hindmarsh
>Island sluices
I've been there. I even have pictures. :-)
Eric Stevens
kangarooistan
> But you have given no evidence of this. Please don't cite that map at
> me again as, what ever it represents, it does not appear to be tin in
> any of its forms.
I see mate
casiterite / black sand is not tin
OK mate if you say so
tell that to the people who took a million tons of it to the Ancient
world
One day you may ask Where the ancient world actually got its so called
" tin " from , most agree its a mystery
One day they will discover it came f rom the lower lakes / coorong and
then you will accept I actually was right all along
Im very very patient
i know how SLOW experts really are mate
>
>
>
>
>
> >They are ALL found in or as BLACK SANDS , hence my preferred name ,
> >some deposits DO contain tin , but the value of the tin on world
> >markets means other minerals are the target , and processing costs of
> >extracting the tin from that site are such that at times ,, other
> >minerals contained in the ore are FAR more valuable
>
> >Many discoveries are HUGE but uneconomic a todays prices
>
> >> If you were right, and there had been massive amounts of tin in the
> >> Coorong you would see modern miners in there extracting all the tin
> >> left behind in the tailings from your alleged miners of 2000 years
> >> ago. But it isn't happening now and it wasn't happening then.
>
> >> --- snip ----
>
> >> Eric Stevens
>
> >Your statement above is actually part of my evidence mate
>
,
> >There Is massive amounts of HMS just in land in ancient beach sands
> >that are simply not where nature always leaves HMS
>
> They seem to be unknown to the state government.
Seems you are NOT looking at the same maps mate
It is WIDELY accepted there are MILLIONS of tonsof HMS just inland
from the coorong
MILLIONS of tons of it long established HMS / black sand in my
language
Ifyou can not " SEE " the pattern of mineral HMS depositsradiating
FROM THE MURRAY MOUTH where mother nature put itand left stranded as
the mouth silted up over millenia you are not a REAL geologist mate ,
you may indeed be very clever , but it seems geology is not your
strong point , indeed this topic has stumped every expert for 3000
years until I DISCOVERED it
Im happy to wait for the res to catch up
a student of geology could identify the source of these stranded beach
lines
http://www.dpi.nsw.gov.au/__data/assets/image/0004/94981/hotspot_2006_4.jpg
If you can not , or dont care to , thats FINE Eric
Million have no interest in the topic mate
But there is simply no doubt , a million ton of HMS was mined at the
lowe rlakes / Coorong 3000 years ago
So best just wait until others with more skill solve the mystery of
the missing TIN
Mate
kanga
=====
>
>
>
>
>
> >SOMEBODY indeed did take them a very long time ago
>
> >If you give a geologist a map and geological history of south
> >australia and ask him to identify WHERE nature would leave the HMS he
> >will identify the richest finds WILL be exactly where the lower Lakes
> >are seen
>
> >There is now only holes where any geologist will say nature ALWAYS
> >eaves the HMS
>
> >The Older stranded beaches inland just do STILL have HMS
> >http://www.dpi.nsw.gov.au/__data/assets/image/0004/94981/hotspot_2006...
> >http://outernode.pir.sa.gov.au/__data/assets/image/0012/11352/mineral...
>
> >WHERE and WHY are there no HMS at the present mouth
>
> >Looking / thinking / speaking of mining 3000years ago , we need to
> >read the word "TIN" as cassiterite or better still HMS or black sand
>
> >TODAY when we say TIN
>
> >We meanhttp://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tin
> >http://www.mdbc.gov.au/subs/dynamic_reports/foundation_report/1.html#...
>
> >http://www.mdbc.gov.au/subs/dynamic_reports/foundation_report/6.html
>
> >http://www.mdbc.gov.au/subs/dynamic_reports/foundation_report/images/...
> >http://images.google.com.au/imgres?imgurl=http://www.mdbc.gov.au/subs...
> >http://outernode.pir.sa.gov.au/__data/assets/image/0012/11352/mineral...
>
> Eric Stevens
Do you think we should all wait until the experts discover stuff
before we look for answers and only believe experts once they accept
new discoveries
ts ALWAYS an amateur who discovers new stuff
Experts only step it to claim the glory once the proof has been
established beyond all doubt
The experts never discover NEW stuff
they are EXPERTS at reading what OTHERS discovered , then claiming the
glory as their research
Wait a few years Eric and watch the Government and experts announce
THEIR discovery of THE LARGEST MINE IN ALL HISTORY DISCOVERED IN
SOUTH AUSTRALIA
give them about ten years though mate
And dont expect to see any reference to my 5 decades of research
Ill be FAR too busy discovering more new stuff , to bother watching
them steal my research , like my dad and grandpa , we dont need THEIR
approval to think or discover huge mines like "Challenger"
http://www.google.com.au/search?hl=en&client=firefox-a&channel=s&rls=org.mozilla:en-US:official&hs=Xr3&ei=emxhSuy5II_KsQPuv7jxAQ&sa=X&oi=spell&resnum=0&ct=result&cd=1&q=fabian+quartzite&spell=1
mal fabian
AKA Kanga
========
kanga
=====
always been that way mate
Greatest Mining Pioneer of Australia of all Times
*> On Jul 18, 1:52 pm, Eric Stevens <eric.stev...@sum.co.nz> wrote:
*> And dont expect to see any reference to my 5 decades of research
*>
*> Ill be FAR too busy discovering more new stuff , to bother watching
*> them steal my research , like my dad and grandpa , we dont need
THEIR
*> approval to think or discover huge mines like "Challenger"http://
www.google.com.au/search?hl=en&client=firefox-a&channel=s&rls=...
*>
*> mal fabian
*> kanga
=====
Dear Mr Kanga,
Very sad indeed, but although the lying-thieves get their bounty,
they overcome the fact that somewhere, sometimes in the future the
consequences of their misbehavior bear on their long time fortune &
the one of a Nation.If people were dealing right with people like you,
it is sure indeed that you would come up with immense richness &
unsuspected to the common mind of those Universities brainwashed so-
called elites.
The tall poppy syndrome is always effective & genial vision, proper to
Australia Pioneers, bring down most other people to the awareness of
their level of real mediocrity & indeed parasites of the society upon
which they prey.
The drama further is that when opportunity arises it must be seized in
a moment, if not some other discoveries either of new technology or
new deposits render the former obsolete.
To illustrate that point, the recent China 's discoveries of the
largest iron deposit in the world demonstrate the lost opportunity of
mean Australian Pollies to develop from the primary deposits in WA a
whole industrial complex, serving the world but foremost giving an
opportunity to new generations. This takes vision & foremost
generosity, some qualities singularly lacking such Antipodean Convict
Scum indeed !
The heavy sand deposits which you have discovered will be likewise NOT
commercially viable with the demand of such being satisfied by subsea
deposits of still larger size, and the lack of demand of such metal
due to his phasing out & replacing by others ( Tin is not a passive
metal indeed when used in cans) So it is for Gold whose only future
soon will be for industrial & jewelery use since in fact the real
reserves of Gold amount to E24 tons on that Earth alone ... indeed
integral part of the core of every planet ... so it is for Diamonds as
well, being the markers of the genesis of Carbon & hence an integral
part of the Ultra basic rocks of the Crust...in millions of tons
indeed !
(by the way you have rightly anticipated the floundering of their
values indeed)
This is the immediate penalty of unfairness, ingratitude & un-
recognition of merit, and as you probably know, it 's irreversible.
Indeed one cannot go back in time.
Note
I have at this point in time however to warn you against using the
Column of Ages of the Fraudulent Geology, since it is leading you
into incoherent dead ends ...like all others indeed !
Please do not see in this a criticism, mate, of the extraordinary work
you are doing, but a counsel to be cautious, since the misleading
Hutton & Lyell 's dating based on fossils & alleged fossils reduction
producing the Carbonates sedimentation is utterly insane indeed. The
True Geology on the other end establishes the dating of the Earth
based on a constant drift on the Ecliptics away from Mother Star
( like for other planets) and this based on the variation & hence
adaptation to reducing Cosmic Pressure within what is define in the
Universal Pressure Law or UPL approach. We ARE indeed in system of
Pressure & in a fast changing indeed at the present time Anisobaric &
Anisotropic Environment. In clear the Gradient of Pressure to which
all things are submitted on the present orbital position is not a
constant ... it follows that all Physical constants are in fact
variable.
With kind regards, dear Mr Kanga
Eric Stevens
Where I come from its iron/titanium. Your state government doesn't say
what it is but they do not say that it is tin in any of its forms.
>
>tell that to the people who took a million tons of it to the Ancient
>world
Were these the same people who took the coal?
>
>One day you may ask Where the ancient world actually got its so called
>" tin " from , most agree its a mystery
>
>One day they will discover it came f rom the lower lakes / coorong and
>then you will accept I actually was right all along
>
>Im very very patient
>
>i know how SLOW experts really are mate
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> >They are ALL found in or as BLACK SANDS , hence my preferred name ,
>> >some deposits DO contain tin , but the value of the tin on world
>> >markets means other minerals are the target , and processing costs of
>> >extracting the tin from that site are such that at times ,, other
>> >minerals contained in the ore are FAR more valuable
>>
>> >Many �discoveries are HUGE but uneconomic a todays prices
>>
>> >> If you were right, and there had been massive amounts of tin in the
>> >> Coorong you would see modern miners in there extracting all the tin
>> >> left behind in the tailings from your alleged miners of 2000 years
>> >> ago. But it isn't happening now and it wasn't happening then.
>>
>> >> � �--- snip ----
>>
>> >> Eric Stevens
>>
>> >Your statement above is actually part of my evidence mate
>>
>,
>> >There Is massive amounts of HMS just in land �in ancient beach sands
>> >that are simply not where nature always leaves HMS
>>
>> They seem to be unknown to the state government.
>
>Seems you are NOT looking at the same maps mate
No, I'm not. I have been looking at the ones associated with tin.
>
>It is WIDELY accepted there are MILLIONS of tonsof HMS just inland
>from the coorong
>
>MILLIONS of tons of it long established HMS / black sand in my
>language
>
>Ifyou can not " SEE " the pattern of mineral HMS depositsradiating
>FROM THE MURRAY MOUTH where mother nature put itand left stranded as
>the mouth silted up over millenia you are not a REAL geologist mate ,
>you may indeed be very clever , but it seems geology is not your
>strong point , indeed this topic has stumped every expert for 3000
>years until I DISCOVERED it
>
>Im happy to wait for the res to catch up
>
>a student of geology could identify the source of these stranded beach
>lines
>http://www.dpi.nsw.gov.au/__data/assets/image/0004/94981/hotspot_2006_4.jpg
Are you now saying its Rutile (Titanium) and Zircon? Fine by me, but
its got nothing to do with tin.
Eric Stevens
kangarooistan
I think the allians who stole your brains may have taken the coal from
the coorong mate , I was unaware you were really just ANOTHER KOOK
> >always been that way mate
>
Hi Eric Stevens
Lets simplify it for you Eric
I claim a million ton of THIS HMS was removed 3000 years ago by
somebody
http://www.dpi.nsw.gov.au/__data/assets/image/0004/94981/hotspot_2006_4.jpg
I note the mining activity matches the Bronze age and I note the
Bronze age collapse matches the end of mining activity at the site ,
for the next 3000 years approx
I assume with good reason that THIS MINERAL SAND mined from the lower
Murray Lakes and coorong , was combine with copper to make BRONZE for
several thousand years
It would then account for the mystery of where the alloys used to
convert copper into bronze came from
In due time the EXPERTS will eventually agree once the examine the
facts
Best you play word games with somebody else mate
I may make a spelling error and give you a seizure or somethin
Thanks just the same for your advise mate , but it seems you are only
interested in online games , not research so I best not waste any more
time , far too much important stuff to do than play word games mate
Leave that for the kids and clowns
When the experts examine the bronze they TOO will KNOW where the so
called " tin " came from
ANYBODY who wanted to could soon work it out
You clearly have no interest in truth or research , as far as I can
tell
the Largest mine in ALL history aint going away , nor is the
evidence , so its really only a matter of time till I am proven right
AGAIN
Oh Lord it is hard being humble , but I try my best
I only need enjoy a nice cuppa tea and wait till the experts grow
old and die and the NEXT generation discover I was RIGHT all along
Such is life Eric
You know how it works mate , I will be famous in 100 years , and the
experts of today will be laughed at as complete blind fools they are
kanga
======
kangarooistan
<australia.mining-pion...@neuf.fr> wrote:
Hi Sir JPT
We all know the ruling elites ALWAYS rip off the REAL prospectors and
REAL researchers , always have and ALWAYS will mate
REAL geologists and REAL archaeologists understand how the ruling
elites work mate
Those who know who discovered the gold in the quartzite in central
Australia named it after grandpa , thats ALL we ask mate , the greed
ruling elites ALWAYS steal the riches and the fame , but the REAL
prospectors know who delivers the good from who steals the pay dirt
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Challenger_Mine
http://www.google.com.au/search?hl=en&client=firefox-a&channel=s&q=fabian+quartzite&btnG=Search&meta=
> =====
> Dear Mr Kanga,
>
> Very sad indeed, but although the lying-thieves get their bounty,
> they overcome the fact that somewhere, sometimes in the future the
> consequences of their misbehavior bear on their long time fortune &
> the one of a Nation.If people were dealing right with people like you,
> it is sure indeed that you would come up with immense richness &
> unsuspected to the common mind of those Universities brainwashed so-
> called elites.
fat lazy experts parasite living off dumb taxpayers and stealing fame
will ALWAYS be with us Sir JPT , and their paid servants protecting
the fat arses will ALWAYS be there to sling shit at anybody who dares
their right to rule
> The tall poppy syndrome is always effective & genial vision, proper to
> Australia Pioneers, bring down most other people to the awareness of
> their level of real mediocrity & indeed parasites of the society upon
> which they prey.
> The drama further is that when opportunity arises it must be seized in
> a moment, if not some other discoveries either of new technology or
> new deposits render the former obsolete.
Nature will never run out of stuff to discover mate
I know that YOU know there are millions of tons of gold and minerals
waiting to be harvested , as time permits and need arises
The ruling elites will all soon be bankrupt so then we can start
rebuilding again mate
> To illustrate that point, the recent China 's discoveries of the
> largest iron deposit in the world demonstrate the lost opportunity of
> mean Australian Pollies to develop from the primary deposits in WA a
> whole industrial complex, serving the world but foremost giving an
> opportunity to new generations. This takes vision & foremost
> generosity, some qualities singularly lacking such Antipodean Convict
> Scum indeed !
Sadly China is going to cancell ALL Australian mining orders , and ALL
Australian mines will soon be bankrupt
Only then Once the western countries lose the wars in Iraq and
Afghanistan ,and western taxpayers sink into the dark ages paying for
their crimes
THEN we can start rebuilding again on firm foundations , once ALL the
real terrorists are ALL jailed it will AGAIN be possible for REAL
mining to restart mate
Then we can all get back to work
>
> The heavy sand deposits which you have discovered will be likewise NOT
> commercially viable with the demand of such being satisfied by subsea
> deposits of still larger size, and the lack of demand of such metal
> due to his phasing out & replacing by others ( Tin is not a passive
> metal indeed when used in cans) So it is for Gold whose only future
> soon will be for industrial & jewelery use since in fact the real
> reserves of Gold amount to E24 tons on that Earth alone ... indeed
> integral part of the core of every planet ... so it is for Diamonds as
> well, being the markers of the genesis of Carbon & hence an integral
> part of the Ultra basic rocks of the Crust...in millions of tons
> indeed !
> (by the way you have rightly anticipated the floundering of their
> values indeed)
INDEED Sir JPT , I agree the subseamines WILL force the closure of all
gold mining onland in the near future mate
BUT there is no point opening them until AFTER the wars end
we need wait until ALL western taxpayers run out of money and
surrender , AND hand over all war criminals and terrorists to face
justice
>
> This is the immediate penalty of unfairness, ingratitude & un-
> recognition of merit, and as you probably know, it 's irreversible.
> Indeed one cannot go back in time.
JUSTICE has scales and a sword , NO WATCH
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Justice
>
> Note
> I have at this point in time however to warn you against using the
> Column of Ages of the Fraudulent Geology, since it is leading you
> into incoherent dead ends ...like all others indeed !
> Please do not see in this a criticism, mate, of the extraordinary work
> you are doing, but a counsel to be cautious, since the misleading
> Hutton & Lyell 's dating based on fossils & alleged fossils reduction
> producing the Carbonates sedimentation is utterly insane indeed. The
> True Geology on the other end establishes the dating of the Earth
> based on a constant drift on the Ecliptics away from Mother Star
> ( like for other planets) and this based on the variation & hence
> adaptation to reducing Cosmic Pressure within what is define in the
> Universal Pressure Law or UPL approach. We ARE indeed in system of
> Pressure & in a fast changing indeed at the present time Anisobaric &
> Anisotropic Environment. In clear the Gradient of Pressure to which
> all things are submitted on the present orbital position is not a
> constant ... it follows that all Physical constants are in fact
> variable.
As you know Sir JPT
Kanga is a field worker not a scientist ,If I can not see it or if it
fails mother natures / GODs test I assume its to be taken as a theory
I can read abour radio carbon dating and scientific POV , but its only
basic hands on stuff I rely on mate, as you know its fun learning to
read the natural signs in nature and when a bookish expert tells me
nature is wrong I always believe nature first
Idont reject any of the emerging sciences mate ,its simply beyond me
to but read and watch the new generations develop new ideas
I still KNOW what mother nature says about the Lower Lakes and
Coorong , they are most certainly man made HMS mines flooded 3000years
ago
and the Turin Papyrus goldmine is indeed in South australia
And I know the experts are ALL faro arrogant and ignorant to ever
admit Im right
Western universities have produced an entire generation of FOOLS who
now nothing about mining or politics or banking or military or
intelligence or media reporting
they have ALL completely failed us again and again
Thank GOD they have finally bankrupted EVERY western country and very
very soon even the dumbest meat head will be forced to demand we get
PROPER leadership to take control of what ever is left once western
countries IMPLODE in the next 12 months
THEN mate we can really get down to some serious mining talk and
research AGAIN
I really enjoy reading rocks as they never lie,
>
kanga
=====
Eric Stevens
<kangaro...@gmail.com> wrote:
>On Jul 18, 6:22�pm, Eric Stevens <eric.stev...@sum.co.nz> wrote:
>I think the allians who stole your brains may have taken the coal from
>the coorong mate , I was unaware you were really just ANOTHER KOOK
>
>> >always been that way mate
>>
>Hi Eric Stevens
>
>Lets simplify it for you Eric
>
>I claim a million ton of THIS HMS was removed 3000 years ago by
>somebody
>http://www.dpi.nsw.gov.au/__data/assets/image/0004/94981/hotspot_2006_4.jpg
Another map in isolation. Why don't you give the rest of the web page?
>
>I note the mining activity matches the Bronze age and I note the
>Bronze age collapse matches the end of mining activity at the site ,
>for the next 3000 years approx
What mining activity? Or have you already abandoned your map?
>
>I assume with good reason that THIS MINERAL SAND mined from the lower
>Murray Lakes and coorong , was combine with copper to make BRONZE for
>several thousand years
What is the 'good reason'? Do you have actual evidence?
>
>It would then account for the mystery of where the alloys used to
>convert copper into bronze came from
>
>In due time the EXPERTS will eventually agree once the examine the
>facts
What facts? All you have given us so far is the tin which isn't
there. I don't think its tin that's missing. Its coal.
>
>Best you play word games with somebody else mate
>
>I may make a spelling error and give you a seizure or somethin
>
>Thanks just the same for your advise mate , but it seems you are only
>interested in online games , not research so I best not waste any more
>time , far too much important stuff to do than play word games mate
>
>Leave that for the kids and clowns
>
>When the experts examine the bronze they TOO will KNOW where the so
>called " tin " came from
Theyv'e already done that.
>
>ANYBODY who wanted to could soon work it out
>
>You clearly have no interest in truth or research , as far as I can
>tell
>
>the Largest mine in ALL history aint going away , nor is the
>evidence , so its really only a matter of time till I am proven right
>
>AGAIN
Oh, what were you right about the last time?
>
>Oh Lord it is hard being humble , but I try my best
>
>I only need enjoy a nice cuppa tea and wait till the experts grow
>old and die and the NEXT generation discover I was RIGHT all along
>
>Such is life Eric
>
>You know how it works mate , I will be famous in 100 years , and the
>experts of today will be laughed at as complete blind fools they are
>
>kanga
>======
Eric Stevens
kangarooistan
This document is published on the web.
Your document is publicly viewable at:
http://docs.google.com/View?id=dcgk9t7p_57cb6s8pgk
> Eric Stevens
Please educate yourself on the topic if you are interested Eric
Im far too buy to play childish word games
The LARGEST MINE ON EARTH IN ALL HISTORY
is far too complex a topic for you mate
the EVIDENCE is there f those with the IQ to read
kanga
=====
Kendall K Down
ps.com>
kangarooistan <kangaro...@gmail.com> wrote:
> Hi Matt , I see you have difficulties in reading mate
> or is it Maths you need help with ??
We call him "Matt the Pratt" here on sci.archaeology.
Ken Down
--
================ ARCHAEOLOGICAL DIGGINGS ===============
| Australia's premier archaeological magazine |
| http://www.diggingsonline.com |
========================================================
Eric Stevens
<kangaro...@gmail.com> wrote:
>snip nonsense
> This document is published on the web.
>Your document is publicly viewable at:
> http://docs.google.com/View?id=dcgk9t7p_57cb6s8pgk
>
>> Eric Stevens
>
>Please educate yourself on the topic if you are interested Eric
>
>Im far too buy to play childish word games
And far too busy to cite the specific evidence I have asked you for.
>
>The LARGEST MINE ON EARTH IN ALL HISTORY
>
>is far too complex a topic for you mate
>
>the EVIDENCE is there f those with the IQ to read
I can read. All you have to do is cite the evidence.
>
>kanga
>=====
Eric Stevens
kangarooistan
> I can read. All you have to do is cite the evidence.
>
>
>
> >kanga
> >=====
>
Thats great mate , I knew it was only ater of TIME until ever you
stopped to
READ the evidence
Here you go mate
http://docs.google.com/Doc?docid=dcgk9t7p_57cb6s8pgk&hl=en
Now comeback once the hard work is donr , then you can go on
pretending to be an expert reading other people hard won discoveries
Once the glossy magazines approve an easily digested version suitable
for amateurs and coffee table archaeologists
mate
kanga
=====
Tom McDonald
> > I can read. All you have to do is cite the evidence.
>
> > >kanga
> > >=====
>
> Hi Eric Stevens
>
> Thats great mate , I knew it was only ater of TIME until ever you
> stopped to
>
> READ the evidence
>
> Here you go mate
>
> http://docs.google.com/Doc?docid=dcgk9t7p_57cb6s8pgk&hl=en
What would be the source of the cassiterite in the area you suggest is
a huge mine? If it is a secondary deposit of a river system, it must
have been washed downstream from another place, perhaps from the
weathering of rock. (Your source suggests granite as a major tin-
containing rock.)
<snip>
kangarooistan
you must be aware thousands of feet of rock has been slowly removed
from the entire continent some several times over HMS moves very
slowly down stream , so original source rocks may be gone , even
though some still remain and HMS can bee seen in the rocks at the
surface with the naked eye in many places , the cassiterite mined in
the uk is ancient re consolidated placer deposits , that were once
black sands in ancient water way IMHO
>
> <snip>
There is only one source of "black sand" ,crystals , weathered from
ancient rocks , all along the 3375 km river system , over billions of
years , have left behind a very clear trail , right from and still in
the source rocks in some places you can trace them back , but why mine
hard rock when placer deposits sit all around in the sand to be
scooped up
the process is well understood, the older coast lines just inland
from he present Lakes / Coorong all contain " black Sands " most not
presently economic mines
Once the HMS / ' blackSands " reaches the sea it washes along the
coast leaving thestranded lines of HMS , as seen all up the ancient
stranded beach lines , seen easily by ANYBODY who cares to LOOK ,
they go and mine them still today with gold pans , but price dictates
if they mine commercially , there is thousands / millions of tons of
HMS inland , simply none where it should be near the present mouth or
beach
Well understood process that any geologist student could easily READ
in the lanscape ,
BUT the black sand that must have been in the area we call the Lower
Lakes / coorong, is missing , and a VAST hole is where nature demands
there must be NO HOLE , are we supposed to believe the white beach
sand jumped over a 100 sq km hole and landed on the beach , 100
billion ton of white sand would fill the hole before reaching the
beach 30 km away
I can not believe I am having trouble explaining this to ADULTS ,who i
assume went to UNI
The area clearly shows to ANYBODY who cares to walk the site it WAS
indeed man made
The middens tell you when, and how long ago, and how long they mined
an area for and when mining stopped , of OVER 100sq KM open cast
mine , still less than the Chinese canal system and its only beach
sand , it may well have been Chinese miners , if they all went home
and keep seperate, there is no Chinese genes visible as far as I can
tell in local Aboriginal peopes
several meters deep
Nature never ever leaves a HOLE at the mouth of a long river
Nature PILES UP SEDIMENT at the mouth of a long river
The ONLY explanation for a 100 sq KM hole several meters deep still ,
is a MAN MADE mine site
The missing black sand , will lead us to the WHO TOOK IT , once a
survey of ancient bronzes is carried out in due time
The language of the local tribes certainly leaves little doubt IMHO
BUT once I finish a survey of ancient bronzes assay / metallurgy
analysis even the very very low IQ , and experts , will not be able
to PRETEND the LARGEST MINE ON EARTH EVER is not in South Australia ,
and its 3000 plus years old AND I discovered it , despite their best
efforts to LAUGH me into silence
I will see they NEVER ever work again in any field of science ,
EVER , they are a danger to young minds , once i finish my research ,
I will destroy their careers one by one I will hunt them down and
expose their IGNORANCE in front of their peers in public
It is THE BIGGEST MINE ON EARTH , and they still refuse to " see " or
even look right under their noses , with a sign on it and they STILL
failed to even notice that,
WHAT hope is there for our children with EXPERTS that are as dumb as
our leaders and bankers
like the LONGEST man made canal is 1700 km long in china several
thousands of years ago , mining the site was easy , its just beach
sand, and the river murray supplies the water to wash away the white
sand and scoop up the black sand nice and shinny after rolling slowly
3000 km down stream polishing each crystal
Even a look at a map shows its a mine site , if you showed a young
geology student who new nothing about the site to examine a map and
report what he saw he would ALWAYS report an open cast mine
ONLY if you tell him its in Australia will his BRAIN rule out man made
and he WILL over look the FACTS OF THE SITE
I bet if a test was done on geology students who knew where it was and
others who did NOT know where it was there would be two opposite
schools of interpretation
Same as the old gold mine I discovered , its so plain a blind man
could see its ancient
You can still see the sluices on Hindmarsh and Mundoo islands
George
large mines without evidence of the miners
No settlements no farming traces
No evidence of smelting or smelters.
An (claimed) export of large amounts of metal without the ships or
ports required
And most damning is the lack of artefacts, pottery or glass at these
'sites'.
Eric Stevens
<kangaro...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> I can read. All you have to do is cite the evidence.
>>
>>
>>
>> >kanga
>> >=====
>>
>Hi Eric Stevens
>
>Thats great mate , I knew it was only ater of TIME until ever you
>stopped to
>
>READ the evidence
>
>Here you go mate
>
>http://docs.google.com/Doc?docid=dcgk9t7p_57cb6s8pgk&hl=en
That says diddly squat about tin in Queensland, let alone the Coorong.
>
>Now comeback once the hard work is donr , then you can go on
>pretending to be an expert reading other people hard won discoveries
>
>Once the glossy magazines approve an easily digested version suitable
>for amateurs and coffee table archaeologists
>
>mate
>
>kanga
>=====
>
>
Eric Stevens
Eric Stevens
Where are they mining tin or a tin ore in the Murray river basin?
>
>Well understood process that any geologist student could easily READ
>in the lanscape ,
>
>BUT the black sand that must have been in the area we call the Lower
>Lakes / coorong, is missing , and a VAST hole is where nature demands
>there must be NO HOLE , are we supposed to believe the white beach
>sand jumped over a 100 sq km hole and landed on the beach , 100
>billion ton of white sand would fill the hole before reaching the
>beach 30 km away
>
>I can not believe I am having trouble explaining this to ADULTS ,who i
>assume went to UNI
>
>The area clearly shows to ANYBODY who cares to walk the site it WAS
>indeed man made
>
>The middens tell you when, and how long ago, and how long they mined
>an area for and when mining stopped , of OVER 100sq KM open cast
>mine , still less than the Chinese canal system and its only beach
>sand , it may well have been Chinese miners , if they all went home
>and keep seperate, there is no Chinese genes visible as far as I can
>tell in local Aboriginal peopes
>
>several meters deep
>
>Nature never ever leaves a HOLE at the mouth of a long river
If you are talking about the Coorong, that type of formation is
common. The Coorong just happens to be a particularly large example.
>
>Nature PILES UP SEDIMENT at the mouth of a long river
>
>The ONLY explanation for a 100 sq KM hole several meters deep still ,
>is a MAN MADE mine site
I'm sorry. Its not the 'only' explanation. see
http://www.abc.net.au/tv/btn/teachers/activitysheets/ep23/0823coorong.pdf
Further, the geology of the Coorong has been extensively studied and
nobody mentions significant quantities of casseritite or any other
form of tin.
Eric Stevens
kangarooistan
>
> >Here you go mate
>
> >http://docs.google.com/Doc?docid=dcgk9t7p_57cb6s8pgk&hl=en
>
> That says diddly squat about tin in Queensland, let alone the Coorong.
Let me TRY again Eric
try taking some copper ore and add some black sand from the lower
lakes and melt it
Pour off the molten metal and examine what you get
Hint
BRONZE
Now all we need do is check the ancient bronzes tot track the end
users then trace the suppliers back to SOUTH AUSTRALIA
>
>
>
> >Now comeback once the hard work is donr , then you can go on
> >pretending to be an expert reading other people hard won discoveries
>
> >Once the glossy magazines approve an easily digested version suitable
> >for amateurs and coffee table archaeologists
>
> >mate
>
> >kanga
> >=====
>
> Eric Stevens
Page 1
Downloaded from http://www.abc.net.au/btn
1
COORONG
The word 'coorong' comes from the Ngarrindjeri word 'kurangh' meaning
'neck'.
The Coorong is a set of ancient sand dunes; the oldest was most likely
formed about 120,000 years ago.
Another dune formation occurred about 80,000 years ago and some of it
still remains today.
The modern day Coorong was formed between 6,000 and 20,000 years ago
when the sea rose to form an
island on top of the 80,000-year-old dune. This produced a lagoon
behind the present line of seaward
dunes. Back then, there were lots of access points from the sea to the
lagoon but over time the wind and
sand filled these up, creating a unique neck of land.
==================================================
this is EXACTLY what happened BUT
the river delivering new sand constantly for 20,000yrs 6,000 yrs
or even ,millions of years would fill the lower lakes with sand in
decades unless it was a man made mine , nature fills the up holes as
she goes
NOT leave a HOLE of 100sq km
under the scenario listed above in the link you provided nature would
simply fill it in , ask any farmer ,silting UP not silting down is
what NATURE does at the END of rivers
Dredging is still required at the MOUTH to stop it closing up ,
The coast has risen and fallen MANY times
The STRANDED BEACH LINES go inland hundreds of km
the " black Sands " are left behind on each new beach
SOMEBODY took over a million TONS of black sand from the lower Lakes
and Coorong 3000 to 4000 years ago
It WILL be discovered in the ancient bronzes all over the ancient
world , once testing is done
Finally they will discover WHERE the so called " Tin " came from
http://books.google.com.au/books?id=AjUy9SA3vqcC&pg=PA200&lpg=PA200&dq=afghanistan+tin&source=bl&ots=yUW5lwo7Gd&sig=7YFyuQhWhy_ME6U_hxjmSkdWLGI&hl=en&ei=zIBjSr2iN4fosQPejY1n&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=1
Iv been reading how they ALL stumble when trying to locate WHERE the
tin came from
They are looking for a mine
Im looking for a market for black sand at EXACTLY the same time
The ALL facts , they always match the FACTS no matter which way you
examine them
There is nil doubt the missing " tin " was mined from the LARGEST MINE
IN ALL HISTORY
every mine on earth up until 100 years ago would fit in the hole at
the end of the Murray
Clearly they are related
EVERY other mine fails very quickly under scrutiny to even get CLOSE
to the required amount of tin to serve the demand of the Bronze age ,
the south australian mine fits exactly in EVERY respect
It will be found that 90% plus of all bronze made during the middle
bronze age contains minerals from South Australia , except small local
bronze foundries with local minerals , but the big trade foundries
was in imported HMS from South Australia , yes perhaps other sites in
Australia MAY have also be mined , but the available river Murray as a
natural SLUICE , and the length of the river feed in off a vast
inland reserve delivered FREE to the coast made South Australia like a
natural mineral sand sluice
The drainage area from the river has been eroding thousands of meters
in many places of rock over millions of sq km , delivering almost pure
HMS right to the coast to load already polished ready to load up ,
where at that time other " tin " mines had to mine HARD ROCK
Are you aware that over 2,400 METERS thick rock was eroded from around
ULURU / Ayres Rock in the last 500 million years , and the river
murray drains several MILLION sq km and ALL the sands and heavy
minerals move slowly towards the MOUTH OF THE RIVER MURRAY
The minerals present suggest derivation from a predominantly granite
source, similar to the Musgrave Block exposed to the south.[6] When
relatively fresh, the rock has a grey colour, but weathering of iron-
bearing minerals by the process of oxidation gives the outer surface
layer of rock a red-brown rusty colour.[5] Features related to
deposition of the sediment include cross-bedding and ripples, analysis
of which indicated deposition from broad shallow high energy fluvial
channels and sheet flooding, typical of alluvial fans.[5][6]
[edit] Age and origin
The Mutitjulu Arkose is believed to be of about the same age as the
conglomerate at Kata Tjuta, and to have a similar origin despite the
rock type being different, but it is younger than the rocks exposed to
the east at Mount Conner,[5] and unrelated to them. The strata at
Uluru are nearly vertical, dipping to the south west at 85°, and have
an exposed thickness of at least 2,400 m (7,900 ft).
Most bronze from the period 1000 bc to 1000 AD was recycled , once
the location of the South Australian Black Sand mines were lost in
about 1200 BC bronze age collapse
http://docs.google.com/Doc?docid=dcgk9t7p_57cb6s8pgk&hl=en
future generations will LAUGH at your skepticm
BLIND freddy could SEE it
ALL archaeologists and ALL geologists will ALL hang their heads in
SHAME
EXCEPT
kanga
======
kangarooistan
Let me guess george
you aint even looked let alone read my post
Why bother offering any opinion if you are simply not interested
99% of people will NEVER ever care , ancient history and geology has
been thoroughly DESTROY by boring dry old FARTS who kill off any
interest any young person ever had, been that way for hundreds of
years mate
If you are not interested that perfectly FINE
I HATE music and football , but dont bother reading their postings
BUT if you want to REPLY
Please inform yourself first
http://docs.google.com/Doc?docid=dcgk9t7p_57cb6s8pgk&hl=en
Or risk looking like a FOOL mate , once the largest mine in ALL
HISTORY is located at the mouth of the River Murray and coorong
Hard to get EGG off your face when the facts clearly PROVE you have
not even read the evidence mate
kanga
=======
George
> Hard to get EGG off your face when the facts clearly PROVE you have
> not even read the evidence mate
So this 'evidence' is in the archaeological strata?
Where ?
All you have to show is the traces of settlement.
According to your claim the area must have been inhabited for (at
least) hundreds of years.
Thus I'd expect a LOT of evidence.
More perhaps than at Grimes Graves where flint was mined
No evidence of smelting or smelters.
You may not be aware of it but smelting leaves a LOT of traces.
Look at the digs on the native iron smelters in Africa..
Do you have an explanation for this anomaly ?
Eric Stevens
<kangaro...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>>
>> >Here you go mate
>>
>> >http://docs.google.com/Doc?docid=dcgk9t7p_57cb6s8pgk&hl=en
>>
>> That says diddly squat about tin in Queensland, let alone the Coorong.
>
>Let me TRY again Eric
>
>try taking some copper ore and add some black sand from the lower
>lakes and melt it
>
>Pour off the molten metal and examine what you get
>
>Hint
>
>BRONZE
>
>Now all we need do is check the ancient bronzes tot track the end
>users then trace the suppliers back to SOUTH AUSTRALIA
Where is the evidence for that, apart from your say-so?
What kind of bronze is it, and who has analysed it?
You need to know more about changes in sea levels over the last few
thousand years.
>
>Dredging is still required at the MOUTH to stop it closing up ,
That's because there is almost no water coming down the poor old
Murray river. See my photograph at
http://www.flickr.com/photos/eric_the_gray/3326981960/sizes/l/
>
>The coast has risen and fallen MANY times
>
>The STRANDED BEACH LINES go inland hundreds of km
>
>the " black Sands " are left behind on each new beach
>
>SOMEBODY took over a million TONS of black sand from the lower Lakes
>and Coorong 3000 to 4000 years ago
>
>It WILL be discovered in the ancient bronzes all over the ancient
>world , once testing is done
>
>
>Finally they will discover WHERE the so called " Tin " came from
>http://books.google.com.au/books?id=AjUy9SA3vqcC&pg=PA200&lpg=PA200&dq=afghanistan+tin&source=bl&ots=yUW5lwo7Gd&sig=7YFyuQhWhy_ME6U_hxjmSkdWLGI&hl=en&ei=zIBjSr2iN4fosQPejY1n&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=1
>
But that page is about Afghanistan. Isn't your geography slightly
confused?
--- snip ---
Eric Stevens
Greatest Mining Pioneer of Australia of all Times
Dear Mr Kanga,
Georges ( aka Ron Yates of Cincinnati) being a former Hydrogeologist
with millions of victims of his tenacious & consistent pollution with
his systematic Fluorine, Chlorine, Alun etc, of all mains within his
juridiction, has likewise no "proofs" of such, since in all case such
"proofs" will be denied & refuted as well by the FDA as ludicrous.
Proofs of any form prove nothing indeed & are just elements put
forward to infirm or confirm premises which are considered correct in
the eyes of the believers.
The massive dredging evidence of the Coorong & of the Lower Lakes
which you, Mr Kanga, are demonstrating, is supporting your theories
indeed . Further the complete correspondance between the FAM and the
Turino Papyrus are amongst the evidence, which put the present
History based on the massive (as well) Bible & Torah fraud, on a
right lighting.
The Phoenician who went mining at the end of the World ( we have to
put ourselves in the perspective of the time) were only interested in
exploring Australia for any easily transported & negotiable richness.
They found the Murex snails & the Tin in South Australia & had only a
foothold there for management of local Aboriginals & stockpiling +
loading the tin on board their vessel. No smelter required indeed and
the tin from Bolivia, Malaysia etc is still transported as
Cassiterite. The refining being easily & at leisure being carried out
once back in Phoenician land.
The Santorini explosion in 1500 BC put an end to Egyptian, Cretan ,
Agean, Pheonician civilization of the time & cut the bridges with the
SA operations, with the Phoenicians crew dying without hope of
returning to their home, and the local Abos returning to primitive
state & forgetting except in their lore & language the souvenir of the
Phoenicians pioneers !
3500 years later nothing much remain and it took the genius of a
single handed man gifted with True Archeological insight, Mr Malcom
Fabian, to recover from bit & pieces degraded by over 3 Millenum, and
then reconstitute the real History of Mankind in those far remote
countries of South Eastern Asia.
Honour to you Mr Kanga to stand against all winds & high seas for
your most amazing Archeological Discovery, alike Bouchet de Perthes &
Heinrich Schliemann before you. The opposition to those genius was
fierce since their discoveries were cutting the so-called experts
down to size indeed. The real experts are in fact the Discoverers, the
others are just just unable to do anything but to follow on the path
of the pioneers, with the habitual lag in response
stagging between 10 & 20 years to preserve though quibbling &
irrelevant ranting their self esteem & the one of their fraudulent
Establishment.
Further most sci000ntists, like Georges by ex. , would not trust
anything which has not been taught by their Mind Masters back in their
Freshmen years at Universities
Last but not least, Georges, like dear Tom Mc Donald, is a very
depressive man using & abusing of psychotropes. Hence his very
pessimistic vision that extremely important Archeological discoveries
are not possible.. all is found & all is known so to say !
With kind regards
Joe
> On Sun, 19 Jul 2009 19:32:49 -0700 (PDT), kangarooistan
> <kangaro...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> >
> > >
> >> >Here you go mate
> > >
> >> >http://docs.google.com/Doc?docid=dcgk9t7p_57cb6s8pgk&hl=en
> > >
> >> That says diddly squat about tin in Queensland, let alone the
> Coorong.
> >
> > Let me TRY again Eric
> >
> > try taking some copper ore and add some black sand from the lower
> > lakes and melt it
> >
> > Pour off the molten metal and examine what you get
> >
> > Hint
> >
> > BRONZE
> >
> > Now all we need do is check the ancient bronzes tot track the end
> > users then trace the suppliers back to SOUTH AUSTRALIA
>
> Where is the evidence for that, apart from your say-so?
> What kind of bronze is it, and who has analysed it?
Mr Kanga is right. The ancient Australian aboriginal peoples did have
knowledge of metallurgy. Aboriginal made bronze ingots were prized for
their quality and were widely exported to various destinations in the
ancient world.
Aboriginals also developed highly advanced aeronautical technology such
as the boomerang. It is interesting to note that Australian boomerangs
have been found in ancient Egyptian relics.
Aboriginal Bronze tools were probably used to quarry and dress the
limestone blocks of the Great Pyramid.
--
Sunny
"Greatest wanker of all Times" <Enema...@neuf.fr> wrote in message
news:c1225dcc-0faf-4569...@k6g2000yqn.googlegroups.com...
>3500 years later nothing much remain and it took the genius of a
>single handed man gifted with True Archeological insight, Mr Malcom
>Fabian,
Rubber room mirror malfunction again Turdo?
kangarooistan
<australia.mining-pion...@neuf.fr> wrote:
> Dear Mr Kanga,
Hi Sir JPT
>
> Georges ( aka Ron Yates of Cincinnati) being a former Hydrogeologist
> with millions of victims of his tenacious & consistent pollution with
> his systematic Fluorine, Chlorine, Alun etc, of all mains within his
> juridiction, has likewise no "proofs" of such, since in all case such
> "proofs" will be denied & refuted as well by the FDA as ludicrous.
> Proofs of any form prove nothing indeed & are just elements put
> forward to infirm or confirm premises which are considered correct in
> the eyes of the believers.
INDEED mate
seems there are always experts desperate to preserve their positions
of expert despite evidence , they CLING to their own preferred
version of reality
>
> The massive dredging evidence of the Coorong & of the Lower Lakes
> which you, Mr Kanga, are demonstrating, is supporting your theories
> indeed . Further the complete correspondance between the FAM and the
> Turino Papyrus are amongst the evidence, which put the present
> History based on the massive (as well) Bible & Torah fraud, on a
> right lighting.
>
poor silly jews fabricated 99% of their history and EVERYBODY who can
read knows it , except the poor silly jews who think they own history,
thank GOD they are again o be removed from the big picture once they
AGAIN destroy every empire who ever trusts them ,Muslims learned long
ago to NEVER trust a jew and now so have every western taxpayer
> The Phoenician who went mining at the end of the World ( we have to
> put ourselves in the perspective of the time) were only interested in
> exploring Australia for any easily transported & negotiable richness.
> They found the Murex snails & the Tin in South Australia & had only a
> foothold there for management of local Aboriginals & stockpiling +
> loading the tin on board their vessel. No smelter required indeed and
> the tin from Bolivia, Malaysia etc is still transported as
> Cassiterite. The refining being easily & at leisure being carried out
> once back in Phoenician land.
Plain as the nose on your face mate , the EXPERTS will all hang their
heads in SHAME once the facts are made public
Let them attack and expose themselves to ridicule for centuries as a
warning of WHY the western Empire vanished , with experts like we see
attacking my research as the leader , its no wonder every western
country is DOOMED to collapse
>
> The Santorini explosion in 1500 BC put an end to Egyptian, Cretan ,
> Agean, Pheonician civilization of the time & cut the bridges with the
> SA operations, with the Phoenicians crew dying without hope of
> returning to their home, and the local Abos returning to primitive
> state & forgetting except in their lore & language the souvenir of the
> Phoenicians pioneers !
Yes mate ,it does seem it was most likely local Aboriginal peoples
who"mined" the HMS and even the gold , they still use the EXACT SAME
methods to mine their ochres , and traded stone tools and other items
far and wide even 5000 years ago and more , there was a vast increase
in MIDDEN deposition rates seen near the lower lakes , during the
bronze age
>
> 3500 years later nothing much remain and it took the genius of a
> single handed man gifted with True Archeological insight, Mr Malcom
> Fabian, to recover from bit & pieces degraded by over 3 Millenum, and
> then reconstitute the real History of Mankind in those far remote
> countries of South Eastern Asia.
>
> Honour to you Mr Kanga to stand against all winds & high seas for
> your most amazing Archeological Discovery, alike Bouchet de Perthes &
> Heinrich Schliemann before you. The opposition to those genius was
> fierce since their discoveries were cutting the so-called experts
> down to size indeed. The real experts are in fact the Discoverers, the
> others are just just unable to do anything but to follow on the path
> of the pioneers, with the habitual lag in response
> stagging between 10 & 20 years to preserve though quibbling &
> irrelevant ranting their self esteem & the one of their fraudulent
> Establishment.
And you too mate , REAL researchers are few and far between
They will NEVER EVER understand us mate
We MUST forgive them , after all mate , there are MANY things we are
NOT clever at
Its GODS gift that a few of us can think AND see outside the sq mate ,
others have OTHER special ' gifts " mate,granted some poor fools seem
to have missed out altogether, but that why we have jails and
asylums , history records the REAL heroes later a few centuries the
TRUTH always comes out and THEIR babies will need to try and live with
what THEIR ancestors did
FOOLS who deliberately attempt to prevent advancement of TRUTH are
criminals and will be identified as such in due time
REAL experts never get accepted in their lifetimes mate
If it was EASY everybody would be and REAL expert and we would have
nothing to " discover "
>
> Further most sci000ntists, like Georges by ex. , would not trust
> anything which has not been taught by their Mind Masters back in their
> Freshmen years at Universities
> Last but not least, Georges, like dear Tom Mc Donald, is a very
> depressive man using & abusing of psychotropes. Hence his very
> pessimistic vision that extremely important Archeological discoveries
> are not possible.. all is found & all is known so to say !
>
> With kind regards
>
Hi Sir Jean-Paul Turcaud
> Australia Mining Pioneer
You hit it RIGHT on mate
I suspect your amazingly insightful mind is far above the childish
games played by fat lazy comfortable EXPERTS , who mostly bought
apiece of paper to PROVE they are clever
They are therefore mostly UNABLE to think , as they NEVER actually had
the IQ to start with
They are like dogs and moneys ,capable of learning lots of stuff
BUT unable to step out in to the unknown and "see" the hidden secrets
all around us
They NEED it presented in easily digestible / pre digested form , as
they are INDEED intellectually babies or at best children
THIS is not their FAULT
We were once babies and children mate
We MUST try and be patient, with the naughty little boys , who have
in ALL history had great fun at the expense of the ELDERS
They WILL one day grow up mate
Its probably best to forgive most of them , as it is certainly beyond
the expertise of 99% of the population
Those with KNOWLEDGE , must IMHO offer it to all who genuinely
inquire , and accept critical review with due respect ,but we know
when games are being played to waste our valuable time
As we ourselves benefited by the patience of the GIANTS shoulders who
discovered so much in times long lost , on whos knowledge we stand
The mindless FOOLS who seek to destroy KNOWLEDGE , destroyed the
ancient world , and want to destroy the modern world for ISRAEL ,
exactly as they did in the Bronze age collapse , the jews destroyed
every civilization in their reach
ANY geology student examining the lower Lakes and Coorong , even
online can SEE nature does not leave empty holes at the mouth of long
rivers , the alluvial fan is REVERSED , , billions of tons of sand
have been removed by MAN and about a million ton of HMS is MISSING
A 100sq km HOLE at the mouth of a long sediment filled river , can
NEVER happen in nature
I know you HAVE invested the time to research my discoveries , and so
will others in due time mate
Its only a matter of time until even the low IQ and EXPERTS are forced
to admit we are indeed RIGHT again
The LARGEST MINE IN ALL HISTORY IS INDEED IN SOUTH AUSTRALIA
Im working on several research projects , and DONT need their
permission or support ,Im restricted to doing what I can , but my sons
and grandsons will continue , there is NO hurry mate, its not going
away another few decades will be required juding by normal observable
time it takes to re educate an EXPERT
Im wondering if I advertised for 10 kg of copper ore from all ancient
mines , and slowly smelted it with a kg of " black sands " ,
then exact a kg of the molten metal , and added ANOTHER kg of "
black Sands " and repeated the process , adding and removing a kg
every time until I had a FULL RAGE of bronze , with a FULL range of
different copper ores from the ancient world , I would then have a "
measure " of how to identify any bronze from ancient times , that came
from the South Australian mine by measuring the minor trace
imputities , we could then identify where and when an item was made
As it is , we may see "black sand " mined in South Australia
Traded to say Phoenicians
mixed with copper / ore traded from say Cornwall
smelted in Cyprus with "black sand" purchased from Phoenicians
Forged from Cyprian ingots into tools in ancient Egypt , and used to
invade say Persia where the tools / weapons may have been capture in
large numbers at certain times giving an impression of advanced local
bronze industry for hundreds of years , before being looted and sold
in yet another country to be recycled into yet another page of mis
leading history
Accurate identity of the EXACT source of the original minerals maybe
very hard and very time consuming , but its the ONLY way to really
understand REAL history , I suspect it may well be a very good idea
BUT may upset many people who are using Bronzes to support a mythical
version of history , REAL historians would welcome new insights ,
bigots would prefer to cling their myths
where the weapons and tools are on display as ancient Persian weapons
say , or as recycled bronze as evidence supporting a active tin mine
industry of Persia / or even China
Until we locate here the mine was we can not really be sure of where
the bronzes really came from , granted much has been done BUT they
ALWAYS hit the problem ,
WHERE IS THE MISSING TIN MINES
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bronze_Age_collapse
As part of the Late Bronze Age-Early Iron Age Dark Ages, it was a
period associated with the collapse of central authorities, a general
depopulation, particularly of highly urban areas, the loss of literacy
in Anatolia and the Aegean, and its restriction elsewhere, the
disappearance of established patterns of long-distance international
trade, increasingly vicious intra-elite struggles for power, and
reduced options for the elite if not for the general mass of
population.
There are various theories put forward to explain the situation of
collapse, many of them compatible with each other.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bronze_Age_collapse#Nature_and_causes_of_destruction
its been a very long time for EXPERTS to work out you can reverse
engineer a problem
WHERE IS the best source of the required minerals at the time , and
within the range of known skills , considering the early bronzes were
actually arsenic bronze and dozens of variations of alloy are all
called bronze , they had no concept of the present usage of the term
being restricted to an alloy of copper and tin , all bronzes are
alloys of available minerals using available technology available to
them at the time , and bronzes change with availability over time
There is over whelming EVIDENCE of vast vast mining in the area of the
Lower lakes in South Australia
Were you aware ULURU / Ayres rock was over 3000 meters TALL , before
it topples onto its side , yes it IS laying on its side 'with
sedimentary rocks all laying on their side , near vertical , for
nearly 3000 meters , once the earth surrounding it washed away , it
simply topped over
indicative of relatively rapid erosion from the granites of the
growing mountains to the south. The layers of sand were nearly
horizontal when deposited, but were later tilted to their near
vertical position
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Uluru#Composition
The volume of erosion that has been removed and washed down driver
along the Murray and out the MOUTH at the coorong is probable
unimaginable even to me mate
Several million sq km several km thick of mountains and granites and
minerals mostly washed down the river Murray make the word SLUICE
come to mind hey mate
No doubt the first people to discover the site simply shovelled
prure"black sand and gold up as black and yellow sand for a tousand
years
I suspect it may have been South Australia / River Murray minerals
that actually FUNDED the ancient world empires , until its SECRET
location was lost mate
Make me WONDER if the Aboriginal peoples who hold very close " secrets
" and only certain people can' know " certain secrets may indeed be a
cultural artifact left behind by the ancient miners who CLEARLY had a
code of trade SECRETS to protect their privileged position in the
trade
Even today the local Aboriginals WONT break secrecy laws regarding the
lower Lakes , such was the level of secrecy surrounding the MOUTH OF
THE RIVER
Wonder where they learned that ??
Probably the SAME reason the location of the ancient MINE was lost
once the traders who had the knowledge of WHERE it was were captured
od killed, they would NEVER disclose their " secrets " to anybody
ever , sort of religion was' instilled" into the site
MORE cultural evidence , for those who care to " look "
WHAT might be so very very very special that even after 3000 years its
STILL SECRET , those who know WONT mention it to the uninitiated
Secret Women's Business*
Sunday 11 May 2003
Topic
Journalist Margaret Simons talks about her new book on the Hindmarsh
Island Bridge Affair
http://www.abc.net.au/rn/talks/natint/stories/s851913.htm
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hindmarsh_Island_bridge_controversy
Program Transcript
Terry Lane: There is now a bridge linking the South Australian town of
Goolwa with Hindmarsh Island, and some people think that it impedes
the transit of the xxxxxxxxxxx from their celestial home to earth and
back.
It’s taken more than ten years to build the bridge, and in the
process, the expression ‘secret women’s business’ has been embedded in
our lexicon of joke clichés, millions of dollars have been spent in
inquiries, a Royal Commission, a couple of Federal Court cases, lots
of litigation,
in fact the Hindmarsh Island Bridge costed by the metre, probably is
now just about the most expensive bridge in the universe.
Both major political parties have supported or have opposed the
bridge as seemed in their best interests at the time, swapping sides,
opportunistically. The anthropologists at the South Australian Museum
and Adelaide University took different sides in the debate and they’ve
formed lasting antipathies.
Two Federal government Inquiries found that there was Secret women’s
business surrounding Hindmarsh Island and that Aboriginal heritage
legislation should protect.
The Federal Court ruled on the action of the Minister for Aboriginal
Affairs who ordered work on the bridge to stop. One Royal Commission
found that so-called Secret women’s business was lies and fabrication.
(The Royal Commissioner was a woman, in case you’ve forgotten).
And litigation is still before the courts as the original proponents
of the bridge, developers Tom and Wendy Chapman, seek compensation for
a lost fortune and damage to their reputations, and I should point out
that they have sued the ABC, so I’ll declare that as a small corporate
interest in the story. For a while, everyone wondered what could
possibly be in the sealed envelopes that no man is permitted to see,
which was considered to be critical to whether the bridge should be
given permission to go ahead or not. Well it’s possible to guess what
might be in them but I think we’ve reached the point where probably
nobody cares. Journalist Margaret Simons has looked into the saga of
the Hindmarsh Island bridge, and she’s written of it in her book ‘The
Meeting of the Waters’. Margaret, good afternoon.
http://www.abc.net.au/rn/talks/natint/stories/s851913.htm
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hindmarsh_Island_bridge_controversy