Egyptian myth and Christian Faith
Poy
Christian, similarty to it, more Christian because Osiris having a son
(Horus that became ruler just like Jesus). Osiris as God and Set as Satan.
Is it just me, or is it a real similarty. Could the Jewish faith be borrowed
from the Ancient Egyptians Myth.
O my brothers and my sisters, gather around me that I may tell the tale of
the Before-Time, of the Golden Age when the gods walked upon the earth with
us. Know then that in those ancient days, long before even the grandfather
of our Pharaoh's grandfather was born, Osiris the great-grandson of Ra sat
upon the throne of the gods, ruling over the living world as Ra did over the
gods. He was the first Pharaoh, and his Queen, Isis, was the first Queen.
They ruled for many ages together, for the world was still young and
Grandmother Death was not as harsh as she is now.
His ways were just and upright, he made sure that Maat remained in balance,
that the law was kept. And so Maat smiled upon the world. All peoples
praised Osiris and Isis, and peace reigned over all, for this was the Golden
Age.
Yet there was trouble. Proud Set, noble Set, the brother of Osiris, he who
defended the Sun Boat from Apep the Destroyer, was unsettled in his heart.
He coveted the throne of Osiris. He coveted Isis. He coveted the power over
the living world and he desired to take it from his brother. In his dark
mind he conceived of a plot to kill Osiris and take all from him. He built a
box and inscribed it with wicked magic that would chain anyone who entered
it from escaping.
Set took the box to the great feast of the gods. He waited until Osiris had
made himself drunk on much beer, then challenged Osiris to a contest of
strength. Each one in turn would enter the box, and attempt, through sheer
strength, to break it open. Osiris, sure in his power yet feeble in mind
because of his drink, entered the box. Set quickly poured molten lead into
the box. Osiris tried to escape, but the wicked magic held him bound and he
died. Set then picked up the box and hurled it into the Nile where it
floated away.
Set claimed the throne of Osiris for himself and demanded that Isis be his
Queen. None of the other gods dared to stand against him, for he had killed
Osiris and could easily do the same to them. Great Ra turned his head aside
and mourned, he did not stand against Set.
This was the dark time. Set was everything his brother was not. He was cruel
and unkind, caring not for the balance of Maat, or for us, the children of
the gods. War divided Egypt, and all was lawless while Set ruled. In vain
our people cried to Ra, but his heart was hardened by grief, and he would
not listen.
Only Isis, blessed Isis, remembered us. Only she was unafraid of Set. She
searched all of the Nile for the box containing her beloved husband. Finally
she found it, lodged in a tamarisk bush that had turned into a mighty tree,
for the power of Osiris still was in him, though he lay dead. She tore open
the box and wept over the lifeless body of Osiris. She carried the box back
to Egypt and placed it in the house of the gods. She changed herself into a
bird and flew about his body, singing a song of mourning. Then she perched
upon him and cast a spell. The spirit of dead Osiris entered her and she did
conceive and bear a son whose destiny it would be to avenge his father. She
called the child Horus, and hid him on an island far away from the gaze of
his uncle Set.
She then went to Thoth, wise Thoth, who knows all secrets, and implored his
help. She asked him for magic that could bring Osiris back to life. Thoth,
lord of knowledge, who brought himself into being by speaking his name,
searched through his magic. He knew that Osiris' spirit had departed his
body and was lost. To restore Osiris, Thoth had to remake him so that his
spirit would recognize him and rejoin. Thoth and Isis together created the
Ritual of Life, that which allows us to live forever when we die. But before
Thoth could work the magic, cruel Set discovered them. He stole the body of
Osiris and tore it into many pieces, scattering them throughout Egypt. He
was sure that Osiris would never be reborn.
Yet Isis would not despair. She implored the help of her sister Nephthys,
kind Nephthys, to guide her and help her find the pieces of Osiris. Long did
they search, bringing each piece to Thoth that he might work magic upon it.
When all the pieces were together, Thoth went to Anubis, lord of the dead.
Anubis sewed the pieces back together, washed the entrails of Osiris,
embalmed him wrapped him in linen, and cast the Ritual of Life. When Osiris'
mouth was opened, his spirit reentered him and he lived again.
Yet nothing that has died, not even a god, may dwell in the land of the
living. Osiris went to Duat, the abode of the dead. Anubis yielded the
throne to him and he became the lord of the dead. There he stands in
judgment over the souls of the dead. He commends the just to the Blessed
Land, but the wicked he condemns to be devoured by Ammit.
When Set heard that Osiris lived again he was wroth, but his anger waned,
for he knew that Osiris could never return to the land of the living.
Without Osiris, Set believed he would sit on the throne of the gods for all
time. Yet on his island, Horus, the son of Osiris and Isis, grew to manhood
and strength. Set sent many serpents and demons to kill Horus, but he
defeated them. When he was ready, his mother Isis gave him great magic to
use against Set, and Thoth gave him a magic knife.
Horus sought out Set and challenged him for the throne. Set and Horus fought
for many days, but in the end Horus defeated Set and castrated him. But
Horus, merciful Horus, would not kill Set, for to spill the blood of his
uncle would make him no better than he. Set maintained his claim to the
throne, and Horus lay claim himself as the son of Osiris. The gods began to
fight amongst another, those who supported Horus and those who supported
Set. Banebdjetet leaped into the middle and demanded that the gods end this
struggle peacefully or Maat would be imbalanced further. He told the gods to
seek the council of Neith. Neith, warlike though wise in council, told them
that Horus was the rightful heir to the throne. Horus cast Set into the
darkness where he lives to this day.
And so it is that Horus watches over us while we live, and gives guidance to
the Pharaoh while he lives, and his father Osiris watches over us in the
next life. So it is that the gods are at peace. So it is that Set, wicked
Set, eternally strives for revenge, battling Horus at every turn. When Horus
wins, Maat is upheld and the world is at peace. When Set wins, the world is
in turmoil. But we know that dark times do not last forever, and the bright
rays of Horus will shine over us again. In the last days, Horus and Set will
fight one last time for the world. Horus will defeat Set forever, and Osiris
will be able to return to this world. On that day, the Day of Awakening, all
the tombs shall open and the just dead shall live again as we do, and all
sorrow shall pass away forever.
Lo, this is my tale. Keep it in your hearts and give it to others, as I gave
it to you.
Agamemnon
"Poy" <poy...@earthlink.net> wrote in message
news:yvaW7.17932$Cw3.1...@newsread2.prod.itd.earthlink.net...
> I read this Egyptian myth and notice that it have a jewish Old Testiment
and
> Christian, similarty to it, more Christian because Osiris having a son
> (Horus that became ruler just like Jesus). Osiris as God and Set as Satan.
The Osiris myth is a variation of the Tammuz, Attis, Adonis, Herakles, and
Mythras cults as is the Jesus myth.
> Is it just me, or is it a real similarty. Could the Jewish faith be
borrowed
> from the Ancient Egyptians Myth.
Of cause it was, but not in the way you think.
http://www.argyros.argyrou.btinternet.co.uk/myths/bible/index.htm
So he fills the box with lead and it still floats. Unbelievable.
Soundless like the reverse of the story where the holy spirit enters Jesus
in the form of a dove.
When it this dated. It it based on the version by Plutarch or an earlier
version.
Doug Weller
poy...@earthlink.net says...
> I read this Egyptian myth and notice that it have a jewish Old Testiment and
> Christian, similarty to it, more Christian because Osiris having a son
> (Horus that became ruler just like Jesus). Osiris as God and Set as Satan.
> Is it just me, or is it a real similarty. Could the Jewish faith be borrowed
> from the Ancient Egyptians Myth.
>
though. The people we know as jews were almost certainly Canaanites and
although there were possibly other influences, Canaanite religion would have
been the main one, and Agamemnon in an anti-semetic ignorant bigot who makes up
history as he goes along, so ignore him.
Doug
--
Doug Weller member of moderation panel sci.archaeology.moderated
Submissions to: sci-archaeol...@medieval.org
Doug's Archaeology Site: http://www.ramtops.demon.co.uk
Co-owner UK-Schools mailing list: email me for details
Agamemnon
"Doug Weller" <dwe...@ramtops.co.uk> wrote in message
news:MPG.1693880d2...@news.blueyonder.co.uk...
> In article <yvaW7.17932$Cw3.1...@newsread2.prod.itd.earthlink.net>,
> poy...@earthlink.net says...
> > I read this Egyptian myth and notice that it have a jewish Old Testiment
and
> > Christian, similarty to it, more Christian because Osiris having a son
> > (Horus that became ruler just like Jesus). Osiris as God and Set as
Satan.
> > Is it just me, or is it a real similarty. Could the Jewish faith be
borrowed
> > from the Ancient Egyptians Myth.
> >
> sci.archaeology is definitely the wrong newsgroup for this. Two comments
> though. The people we know as jews were almost certainly Canaanites and
> although there were possibly other influences, Canaanite religion would
have
> been the main one, and Agamemnon in an anti-semetic ignorant bigot who
makes up
> history as he goes along, so ignore him.
BOLLOX. You are a racist anti-Hellenic bigot.
DNA analysis shows that the Canaanites were indo-Europeans as ware ALL the
people of Syria-Palestine up until 1200 BC when the Sea-Peoples were forced
out of Egypt. These Greek and Hittites Sea-Peoples were the so-called "Jews"
of the Exodus.
The so-called "Jews" of today had absolutely no relationship to the Jews of
the bible either New or Old Testament. The OT "Jews" were Hurrians, Mittani,
and Hittites and Greeks from Crete. The so-called "Jews" of NT times
according to anthropological analysis of remains were Ethiopian Egyptians.
The so-called Jews of today are descended from first century Arab coverts.
The is NOT ONE shared of evidence for the existence of any kind of "Jehovah"
cult prior to 21 BC when Herod (a Greek Roman) built his temple. If
Monotheism existed in Palestine then Herodotus would have mentioned it. It
"Jews" existed the Herodotus would have included them among the Circumcised
Peoples he lists and also among the subjects people of the Persians. If the
religion existed the you would expect to fined doorways with prayer boxed
containing "Jewish" prayers. You would expect to find 7 branched candles
sticks, priestly robbers with blue fringes and temples. THERE ARE NONE.
The name of the Jewish place of worship or "Synagogue" is a word which is
purely GREEK. Why if the "Jewish" religion exited prior to the Hellenistic
era would the Jews used a Greek word for their holy place. Even the script
of the "Hebrew" bible did NOT exist until Hellenistic times, and is a
derivative of Aramaic and NOT the Eastern Phoenician script used in
Palestine up until 400 BC.
The Jewish religion was MADE UP in 65 BC when the Romans conquered Palestine
and accused the people they found of being godless. It was based on a
plagiarised and dissembled version of the history of the region originally
written by the Greeks which the people of Qumran turned into a religion by
replacing the names of the Pharaohs with YHWH and making them into God.
Doug Weller
says...
>
> BOLLOX. You are a racist anti-Hellenic bigot.
>
writing 6000 years old I think). You're just another fanatic nationalist who
hates Jews.
WolfWolf
"Agamemnon" <insert-...@hello.to> wrote in message
news:a0c0dh$g35$1...@helle.btinternet.com...
Agamemnon, why are you hiding the findings of recent mtDNA analysis which
clearly show the sub-Saharan origin of early Greeks (genetic links with
Ethiopians) and which make your dumb theories completely absurd?!?
Your exposure as anti-semitic racist adds one element more to your existing
'tourkophagos' (Turk eater) attitude.
Which kind of injection did you receive to talk such nonsense?!?
WolfWolf
Mike Cleven
Agamemnon wrote:
>
> "Doug Weller" <dwe...@ramtops.co.uk> wrote in message
> news:MPG.1693880d2...@news.blueyonder.co.uk...
> > In article <yvaW7.17932$Cw3.1...@newsread2.prod.itd.earthlink.net>,
> > poy...@earthlink.net says...
> > > I read this Egyptian myth and notice that it have a jewish Old Testiment
> and
> > > Christian, similarty to it, more Christian because Osiris having a son
> > > (Horus that became ruler just like Jesus). Osiris as God and Set as
> Satan.
> > > Is it just me, or is it a real similarty. Could the Jewish faith be
> borrowed
> > > from the Ancient Egyptians Myth.
> > >
> > sci.archaeology is definitely the wrong newsgroup for this. Two comments
> > though. The people we know as jews were almost certainly Canaanites and
> > although there were possibly other influences, Canaanite religion would
> have
> > been the main one, and Agamemnon in an anti-semetic ignorant bigot who
> makes up
> > history as he goes along, so ignore him.
>
> BOLLOX. You are a racist anti-Hellenic bigot.
See?
MC
Agamemnon
"WolfWolf" <myn...@email.net> wrote in message
news:a0d387$dh9$1...@suaar1ab.prod.compuserve.com...
WRONG. It shows the Greek origin of the Hyksos Dynasty of Egypt. The
sub-Saharan tribes in question are DECEDENTS of the Attican Greeks who
genetically predate them all and are the forefathers of the Aegean and
Cypriot Greeks.
see link on my web site.
Antonio Arnaiz-Villena who you quoted is a RACIST dissembler and a charlatan
who can't even read a dendorgam.
http://www.argyros.argyrou.btinternet.co.uk/race3.gif
http://www.argyros.argyrou.btinternet.co.uk/myths/bible/index.htm
>
> Your exposure as anti-semitic racist adds one element more to your
existing
> 'tourkophagos' (Turk eater) attitude.
I have nothing against Arabs and Palestinians so what the hell are you
talking about ?
Larry Caldwell
poy...@earthlink.net writes:
> Is it just me, or is it a real similarty. Could the Jewish faith be borrowed
> from the Ancient Egyptians Myth.
Ancient religions were sort of like Microsoft. They would steal anything
that gave them a competitive advantage. Judaism was built on religions
that were much older, and in some cases more sophisticated. Egyptian
myth certainly was important, as was Canaanite and Persian myth. Several
of the Psalms are direct translations of Egyptian hymns to various gods.
Yahweh has characteristics of a storm god, a mountain god, and a fire
god. Each was incorporated into the Yahweh mythos as various Canaanite
peoples consolidated into Hebrew tribes. Satan as an adversary was
a very late addition, which didn't get incorporated until Judaea became
part of the Persian empire. The earlier references to a serpent were
based on a serpent god (Typhon/Python) commonly worshipped throughout the
ancient world.
An excellent place to start searching for the roots of modern religion is
Christopher Siren's Canaanite/Ugaritic mythology FAQ at
http://members.bellatlantic.net/~vze33gpz/canaanite-faq.html
Steve
There are actually many striking similarities between all the major
religions of the world to that of the ancient Egyptians. I'm very new to
this newsgroup and in fact have only read one or two postings, but I do
wonder if anyone here has read any of the work by Alan F Alford, in
particular "The Phoenix Solution". The insights in this book are far too
numerous for me to repeat and my mind is only beginning to digest the
information that I've just read (just finished the book actually). However,
the evidence supporting the ancient Egyptian belief of the Exploded Planet
Hypothesis is overwhelming! I strongly suggest that you should read this
book if you haven't already. I'm about to start also reading Alan Alford's
next book, When the Gods Came Down.
Steve
"Poy" <poy...@earthlink.net> wrote in message
news:yvaW7.17932$Cw3.1...@newsread2.prod.itd.earthlink.net...
tuppennyblue
don't know anything much about, but I can't help but noticing a certain
similarity between the Egyptian hieroglyphic alphabet and the Hebrew
alphabet - letters such as aleph, yod, shin, appear in both and have not
dissimilar written forms - does anyone know whether there is any recognised
link between the two? Could the Hebrew alphabet be descended from the
Egyptian?
"Steve" <ste...@SPAMclubpoint.co.nz> wrote in message
news:10094927...@cereal.attica.net.nz...
Larry Caldwell
ste...@SPAMclubpoint.co.nz writes:
> There are actually many striking similarities between all the major
> religions of the world to that of the ancient Egyptians. I'm very new to
> this newsgroup and in fact have only read one or two postings, but I do
> wonder if anyone here has read any of the work by Alan F Alford, in
> particular "The Phoenix Solution". The insights in this book are far too
> numerous for me to repeat and my mind is only beginning to digest the
> information that I've just read (just finished the book actually). However,
> the evidence supporting the ancient Egyptian belief of the Exploded Planet
> Hypothesis is overwhelming! I strongly suggest that you should read this
> book if you haven't already. I'm about to start also reading Alan Alford's
> next book, When the Gods Came Down.
The flying saucer gods myth is brand new, but looks to have some legs.
I'm not aware of any suggested flying saucer gods before the 1950's.
Emmanuel Velikovsky suggested cosmic cataclysms, but didn't go all the
way to flying saucers.
If you really want to get into flying saucer myth, you should read Erich
Von Daniken's _Chariots of the Gods_. It's a classic, that pins almost
everything that any ancient culture did on extraterrestrial influences.
The intellectual precursor to the flying saucer gods movement was the
Atlantis movement. This was almost single handedly invented by Edgar
Cayce, a professional psychic. He claimed that people were reincarnated
from other planets.
Tom Shaw
denizens of this ng.
TS
"Larry Caldwell" <lar...@teleport.com> wrote in message
news:MPG.1695eb367...@news.earthlink.net...
Danny niccoli
Poy <poy...@earthlink.net> wrote in message
news:yvaW7.17932$Cw3.1...@newsread2.prod.itd.earthlink.net...
> I read this Egyptian myth and notice that it have a jewish Old Testiment
and
> Christian, similarty to it, more
Firstly, be careful, with the word "similarity"...... I find it a over
used, lazy word..
( in normal usage .... I mean no offence )..... Although things are
similar it doesn't
mean they are linked or similar via cause, sometimes its simply a matter of
coincidence,
and I am not saying that this is or is not the case, just excersing
caution.
>Christian because Osiris having a son
In what context....... In some versions....... Horus is the farther and is
married to Hathor!!
( Hathor seems to be like a early, but different version of Isis, which in
the later version becomes horus's mother!)
I also address why even the other version is so mixed up.
> (Horus that became ruler just like Jesus).
Although its almost impossible to ascertain, what horus's original true/
earliest form was
Horus, was not of Egyptian origin, and was in fact the god of war!
>Osiris as God and Set as Satan.
NOT at all!!!......... set , seth etc.... ( same name ) was never
considered completely out right evil!...... in fact in later versions,
Seth becomes guidian of the gods...... and even protector of RA or RE
against Apopis ....( most ppl will know of him by his Greek name apophis)
Satan on the other hand ....... athlougth a fallen angel ( not a GOD!!! )
by the name of Lucifer, never protected, god! in context to after his
fall.
also Satan and god were never brothers! ............. in Christian and
Jewish form! ( someone might start taking about elohim pretty soon)
> Is it just me, or is it a real similarty.
there is similarity between me AND you ......... the real question , is
the mechanism behind it?.......( similartiy maybe superfical )
>Could the Jewish faith be borrowed
> from the Ancient Egyptians Myth.
in my opinion nope, certainly some idea's will be passed on, and also
its worth noteing despite, the Jewish faith had at times went to
polytheism, i.e. the worship of baal , the earliest faith seems if
anything henotheistic........ not polytheism........ BUT neothelitc times
see's a more monotheistic profile.
parhps your reffereing to Akhenaten ????? are you???
> O my brothers and my sisters, gather around me that I may tell the tale of
> the Before-Time, of the Golden Age when the gods walked upon the earth
with
> us. Know then that in those ancient days, long before even the grandfather
> of our Pharaoh's grandfather was born, Osiris the great-grandson of Ra sat
> upon the throne of the gods, ruling over the living world as Ra did over
the
> gods. He was the first Pharaoh, and his Queen, Isis, was the first Queen.
> They ruled for many ages together, for the world was still young and
> Grandmother Death was not as harsh as she is now.
( the obove is a more new_er version of egyptian faith !!! )
> His ways were just and upright, he made sure that Maat remained in
balance,
> that the law was kept. And so Maat smiled upon the world. All peoples
> praised Osiris and Isis, and peace reigned over all, for this was the
Golden
> Age.
maat = justice, also a goddess
> Yet there was trouble. Proud Set, noble Set, the brother of Osiris, he who
> defended the Sun Boat from Apep the Destroyer, was unsettled in his heart.
> He coveted the throne of Osiris. He coveted Isis. He coveted the power
over
> the living world and he desired to take it from his brother. In his dark
> mind he conceived of a plot to kill Osiris and take all from him. He built
a
> box and inscribed it with wicked magic that would chain anyone who entered
> it from escaping.
god never got killed by satan :)
> Set took the box to the great feast of the gods. He waited until Osiris
had
> made himself drunk on much beer, then challenged Osiris to a contest of
> strength.
gods dont get drunk!!!....... mind you hathor got drunk to ...... when RA
sent
her to destroy the human race............. do you really want be to go on
about
this story?
Thoth ...... seems to be just anther separation of the great he/she being
......
( the best metaphor for that is the first creator, and the creator of the
gods
etc.... ) called Khepera, it also seems that RA or RE , is also yet
anther
separation of Khepera....... some people even feel that puth was a older
version
of thoth ....... on the basis that in early versions of the Egyptian
faith ..... hathor
was married and associated to thoth , and in this version thoth is
asscotied
with Isis
thoth is like the heart of RA ....... puth was the inventor of the
universe, these are
all examples of "creator gods"...... which ironically seem to be more of a
separation
of 1 deity into many......
> Yet Isis would not despair. She implored the help of her sister Nephthys,
> kind Nephthys, to guide her and help her find the pieces of Osiris. Long
did
> they search, bringing each piece to Thoth that he might work magic upon
it.
> When all the pieces were together, Thoth went to Anubis, lord of the dead.
> Anubis sewed the pieces back together, washed the entrails of Osiris,
> embalmed him wrapped him in linen, and cast the Ritual of Life. When
Osiris'
> mouth was opened, his spirit reentered him and he lived again.
>
> Yet nothing that has died, not even a god, may dwell in the land of the
> living. Osiris went to Duat, the abode of the dead. Anubis yielded the
> throne to him and he became the lord of the dead. There he stands in
> judgment over the souls of the dead. He commends the just to the Blessed
> Land, but the wicked he condemns to be devoured by Ammit.
Good!! ....... you see here it seems as if osrisis has taking up the role
of Jesus
not god ( even those, Jesus is both the son of god and god ) so its has
if osiris
is a mix of your 1 version of horus ( Jesus ) and orisis ( daddy god )
a
difference!!~ this is why i also hear , Osiris is ( Jesus ) and Ra is
god )........
But this in it's self although has simalites there are also many many
difference's!!
which is why the word similar is fairly lazy.
e.g. of difference between ra and other multi personilty complex
disorder forms of Khepera. AND Yahweh...
Khepera cut his " penis"..... Yahweh doesn't ........ when creating "all"
Yahweh never had a kingdom on earth with lots of gods running around, Ra's
kingdom was on earth until he abandoned it and gave it to osiris.
Yahweh is not physical..... in any sense, that we no of....... bible
seems
to indicate that, "his" rather x_dimensional
Danny niccoli
> In article <yvaW7.17932$Cw3.1...@newsread2.prod.itd.earthlink.net>,
> poy...@earthlink.net writes:
>
> > Is it just me, or is it a real similarty. Could the Jewish faith be
borrowed
> > from the Ancient Egyptians Myth.
>
> Ancient religions were sort of like Microsoft. They would steal anything
> that gave them a competitive advantage.
YES ...... But, "advantage" is such a lose term, it can lead people
anywhere!!
~ "steal" for what? Its very likely that the reason why, they
"steal"... was to
make it easier for people whom for example..... conquered to be
assimilated, into
the conquers way of life....... or from one empire or way of life to anther
example:
Thoth to hermes
( Egyptian) to ( Greek )
Of course in many cases......additional beliefs were added, which is why
there is
marked difference.
>Judaism was built on religions
> that were much older, and in some cases more sophisticated. Egyptian
> myth certainly was important, as was Canaanite and Persian myth. Several
> of the Psalms are direct translations of Egyptian hymns to various gods.
mmm u do see some also in old Turkish religions too! .... but yes your
right!
> Yahweh has characteristics of a storm god, a mountain god, and a fire
> god. Each was incorporated into the Yahweh mythos as various Canaanite
> peoples consolidated into Hebrew tribes.
Its very easily to see that gods were marked greatly via symbolism!!.....
therefore
fire!! is actually a charatrisic you find in gods...... rather than
goddess's!!
>Satan as an adversary was
> a very late addition,
maybe but the idea wasn't .......... i.e. taimat the dragon a "she"
and tends to go
on a feury to kill the gods ....... routed in sumerian myth......oldest
writings that is!!
>which didn't get incorporated until Judaea became
> part of the Persian empire.
are you by Persian referring to sueriain, Babylonian , assyrian ???
what?
>The earlier references to a serpent were
> based on a serpent god (Typhon/Python) commonly worshipped throughout the
> ancient world.
actualy Typhon, that beaning a greek god , was equated with set!!
set as other names ie ( : seth, setekh, setesh, seti, sutekh, setech,
sutech)
you also should find that the "serpent god" is probably a charateristic
found
in sumerian religions....... that beielved the gods to be lizard like,
and very cruel
so thats a very nice like , for around 5000bc!
steve
I
> don't know anything much about, but I can't help but noticing a certain
> similarity between the Egyptian hieroglyphic alphabet and the Hebrew
> alphabet - letters such as aleph, yod, shin, appear in both and have not
> dissimilar written forms - does anyone know whether there is any
recognised
> link between the two? Could the Hebrew alphabet be descended from the
> Egyptian?
Egyptian has some phonems associated with glyphs,
so do a number of other scripts that are in use before
the Hebrew alphabet at places from the Negev toUgarit.
The Hebrew alphabet isn't so much descended from other alphabets
as co-emergent.
http://www.ancientscripts.com/alphabet.html#tree
Peter Daniels of sci.lang gram...@att.net
is a good resource if you want to
research it further
regards,
steve
Agamemnon
"steve" <whi...@shore.net> wrote in message
news:5F7X7.11256$Cx2.2...@news1.news.adelphia.net...
> > Slight change of direction here... I'm really talking about things
that
> I
> > don't know anything much about, but I can't help but noticing a certain
> > similarity between the Egyptian hieroglyphic alphabet and the Hebrew
> > alphabet - letters such as aleph, yod, shin, appear in both and have not
> > dissimilar written forms - does anyone know whether there is any
> recognised
> > link between the two? Could the Hebrew alphabet be descended from the
> > Egyptian?
>
> Egyptian has some phonems associated with glyphs,
> so do a number of other scripts that are in use before
> the Hebrew alphabet at places from the Negev toUgarit.
>
> The Hebrew alphabet isn't so much descended from other alphabets
> as co-emergent.
There is NO Hebrew alphabet. The script used in the bible is "Jewish" script
and is descended from Aramaic script in Hellenistic times. There is no
question that the Greeks influenced its development. Jewish script has NO
relation whatsoever to Eastern Phoenician script which is often FALSLY
termed "Old Hebrew" but which is almost identical to Archaic Greek.
Ken Down
<lar...@teleport.com> wrote:
> If you really want to get into flying saucer myth, you should read Erich
> Von Daniken's _Chariots of the Gods_. It's a classic, that pins almost
> everything that any ancient culture did on extraterrestrial influences.
I agree with you: it is a classic! A classic of half-truths, down-right
lies, and half-baked speculations. It is also a classic in how to push the
right buttons in the gullible and uneducated.
Be so kind as to talk about archaeology on an archaeology newsgroup.
Ken Down
--
__ __ __ __ __
| \ | / __ / __ | |\ | / __ |__ All the latest archaeological news
|__/ | \__/ \__/ | | \| \__/ __| from the Middle East with David Down
================================= and "Digging Up The Past"
Web site: www.argonet.co.uk/education/diggings
e-mail: digg...@argonet.co.uk
Agamemnon
"Danny niccoli" <Nic...@niccoli.freeserve.co.uk> wrote in message
news:a0itfu$o00$1...@newsg3.svr.pol.co.uk...
Lucifer was NEVER the title of Satan. It was the name of God.
According to Revelation, Jesus Christ was perceived as the “Morning Star”..
{ Quotes are from the Authorised, King James Version (AV) and the original
Greek Bible (LXX + NT) (7=psi, 8=theta)}.
[AV] Revelation 2:28 And I will give him the morning star.
[NT] Revelation 2:28 kai dwsw autw ton astera ton prwinon
[AV] Revelation 22:16 I Jesus have sent mine angel to testify unto you these
things in the churches. I am the root and the offspring of David, and the
bright and morning star.
[NT] Revelation 22: 16 egw ihsous epem7a ton aggelon mou marturhsai umin
tauta epi tais ekklhsiais egw eimi h riza kai to genos dauid o asthr o
lampros o prwinos
But in the Authorised Version of Isaiah the “Morning Star” also known as
Lucifer to the Romans, rather than being portrayed as all sweetens and light
like Christ, is something which is Diabolical.
[AV] Isaiah 14:12 How art thou fallen from heaven, O Lucifer, son of the
morning! how art thou cut down to the ground, which didst weaken the
nations! {O Lucifer: or, O day star}
[LXX] Isaiah 14:12 pws exepesen ek tou ouranou o ewsforos o prwi anatellwn
sunetribh eis thn
ghn o apostellwn pros panta ta e8nh
How can Christ be the Morning Star or Lucifer, if Lucifer is a fallen angel
?
Literally the Latin word “Lucifer” means “Light Bringer” Lux-Ferre, from Lux
meaning light and from Fero meaning to bring forth, bear or carry as in
Christopher, Christ-barer, and was associated by the Romans with the Goddess
Venus.
The Latin “Lucifer” is the Roman equivalent of the Greek “Eosphoros”
(ewsforos) which is taken to be the “Dawn Bringer” or “Morning Star” and is
the son of the Titan Astreus (‘starry’) and Eos (the Dawn) known to the
Romans as Aurora (the Day), the Daughter of the Titan Hyperion and Titaness
Theia, sister of Helios (the Sun) and Selene (the Moon).
This meaning is clear when one looks at the original text of the
Septuagint:
(LXX) Isaiah 14:12 pws e3epesen ek tou ouranou o ewsforos o prwi anatellwn
sunetribh eis thn ghn o apostellwn pros panta ta e8nh
The Greek directly translates as:
Isaiah 14:12. how did it fall from Ouranos (the Sky), Eosphoros (the
dawn-bringer), the morning riser, partnered to the earth, the one sent
towards all nations.
The reference concerning Eosphoros (“dawn-bringer”) can be translated from
the Greek as either “the dawn-bringer, the morning riser, wisdom of earth,
the teacher of all nations” or “the dawn-bringer pro-creating on
the earth, the one sent to all nations” and the reference to Ouranou which
is the possessive form of Ouranos can either be translated as the Heavens or
the Sky.
Note that "sunetribh", "to rub together", according to Liddell-Scott should
be taken to literally mean the act of pro-creation. In his book “The Golden
Bough”, Sir James Frazer concludes by suggesting the God of Sky and Thunder
was the original deity of the Proto-Indo-Europeans who Jacob Grimm and W
Warde Foweler implied was associated with the Oak cult. The theory was that
the Sky God was originally derived from the worship of God of Oak since the
belief was that Sky God produced the spark of lightening by the friction of
rubbing two pieces of oak against each other in the same way as our
ancestors produced fire. Frazer reverses this by inferring that the Sky god
become associated with Oak because of the frequency at which Oak was hit by
lighting. Whichever interpretation one chooses it is clear that "sunetribh",
infers the production of lightening, or the pro-creation of Ouranos on
mother Earth.
If the Greek text is taken as the basis for the quotes from Revelation, with
all the kind Epithets for one supposedly demonic according to the Authorised
Version, the contradictions disappear. The Morning Star is Christ, the
teacher of all nations. It is evident the contradictions seem to have been
brought about by an error in interpretation or translation alone.
The next passage further consolidates the observation:
Isaiah 14:13 su de eipas en th dianoia sou eis ton ouranon anabhsomai epanw
twn astrwn tou ouranou 8hsw ton 8ronon mou ka8iw en orei u7hlw epi ta orh ta
u7hla ta pros borran
Isaiah 14:13. but you said in your heart, to Ouranos I ascend, above the
star of Ouranos I set my throne, to sit on a high mountain among the highest
mountains to the north.
(astrwn is orbiter. Liddell-Scott makes a mistake by making it mean the
stars since it has no knowledge of ancient cosmology . Numerous other parts
of the bible use Asteria to refer to stars in their own right so there is a
clear distinction between the Astrwn and the Asterakia that are fixed in the
Astrwn or orbit. There exists not just one Astrwn but there are at least 7
corresponding to the 7 heavens or the planets Mercury, Venus, Mars, Jupiter,
Saturn, the Sun and the Moon. This is abundantly clear from Plato’s
description of retrograde orbits. *see bottom )
It is obvious that the reference to “the star of Ouranos” is the Morning
Star of Revelation, Lucifer or Eosphoros, ie. Venus or Aphrodite the
Daughter of the Greek God Ouranos or Uranus. Thus the one who is fallen
cannot be Lucifer, otherwise why would he be acceding past his own star, ie.
himself.
Who then can the Epithets of Isaiah 14:12 be for. Obviously they the cant be
for the one who has fallen, so who is left. If Christ is called the Morning
Star then Lucifer, or Eosphoros must have been perceived as epithets by the
early Christians, leaving only one plausible candidate for the subject of
the passage.
The text says the subject is “the partner of Earth” and the “apostle to all
nations”, apostle being either traveller or teacher. These epithets for
Christ also sound like epithets for God. But God is not mentioned here, or
is he.
The Greek word “Ouranou” also has another possible translation, that of
“Sky God”. The fact that his name is in the possessive form Ouranou, rather
than the passive “Ourano”, makes it clear that he alone is the subject of
the epithets, “the dawn-bringer,” “the morning riser,” “the partner of
Earth,” and the “apostle towards all nations”.
After the Church realised the meaning of the Greek text of the LXX passage
from Isaiah it was Demonised in the Authorised Version to hide the reference
to an Ancient God, but the denomination backfired and resulted in the
contradiction’s that I have referred to above.
The diabolical nature of Lucifer can be traced back to the mistranslation of
the Septuagint by St Jerome who gave us the Latin Vulgate (4th Century AD,
700 years after the original).
The later Latin translation reads:
(JER) Isaiah 14:12 quomodo cecidisti de caelo lucifer qui mane oriebaris
corruisti in terram qui vulnerabas gentes
(JER) Isaiah 14:12 How cut from the engraving of Lucifer, that is the
morning riser, fallen to earth with mortal men.
And as a reminder the Greek:
(LXX) Isaiah 14:12 pws e3epesen ek tou ouranou o ewsforos o prwi anatellwn
sunetribh eis thn ghn o apostellwn pros panta ta e8nh
(LXX) Isaiah 14:12. how did it fall from Ouranos, the dawn-bringer, the
morning riser, partnered to the earth, the one who journeys towards all
nations.
This whole mess came about because the translator used "Caelo" engrave, (in
relief on metals), carve (on wood) or compose, instead of "Caelum", Sky or
Heaven or Glory to describe the Greek word Ouranos, (Caelum also means
engravers) and to make matters worse he rearranged and embellished the text.
But how could this mistranslation not have been caught. Any one reading the
Greek text would have seen that the reference to “Ouranou” is missing from
the Latin, and that there is no reference at all to engravings.
It is quite likely that the later Christians who had little understanding
that Uranus was Jehovah may have doctored the original Latin text by
reducing Caelum to Caelo thus demonising Lucifer, who according to Jerome
would otherwise have been God, making Lux-Fero into Lux-Furus or Ferox ie.
Light Destroyer, from Ferus meaning wild of uncivilised or Ferox meaning
warlike, rather than Light Bringer a common title for the supreme being.
It is clear to anyone that speaks Latin, even without the Greek text of the
Septuagint to compare it with, that Caelo has to be Caelum since cutting
something from an engraving, which is two dimensional is illogical.
Jerome’s successors, the illiterate uneducated politically appointed Popes
of the Franks, not only mixed up the Heavens with Engravings but they also
failed to read the true meaning of the Greek text.
Clearly if they had spoken Greek they would have realised like the early
Christians who wrote the Gospels, that Jehovah was the Sky God Uranus!
>
> > Is it just me, or is it a real similarty.
>
> there is similarity between me AND you ......... the real question , is
> the mechanism behind it?.......( similartiy maybe superfical )
>
>
> >Could the Jewish faith be borrowed
> > from the Ancient Egyptians Myth.
>
> in my opinion nope, certainly some idea's will be passed on, and also
> its worth noteing despite, the Jewish faith had at times went to
> polytheism, i.e. the worship of baal , the earliest faith seems if
> anything henotheistic........ not polytheism........ BUT neothelitc
times
> see's a more monotheistic profile.
There was NEVER any "Jewish" faith until 65BC. The Bible had NOTING to do
with god before this time but was a history of PHARAOH's tyranny over
Syria-Palestine written by the Greeks. In 65BC the so-called "eccenes" took
the text and removed Pharaohs name an replaced it with YHWH.
> Khepera cut his " penis"..... Yahweh doesn't ........ when creating
"all"
>
> Yahweh never had a kingdom on earth with lots of gods running around,
Ra's
> kingdom was on earth until he abandoned it and gave it to osiris.
Of course he doesn't. There could only by one true Pharaoh, and this is who
the "Jews" of the time of Herod made into their god.
http://www.argyros.argyrou.btinternet.co.uk/myths/bible/index.htm
>
> Yahweh is not physical..... in any sense, that we no of....... bible
> seems
> to indicate that, "his" rather x_dimensional
POPPYCOCK.
The Bible calls him "the living god" which was the standard epithet for
Pharaoh.
MM4G76
>In article <yvaW7.17932$Cw3.1...@newsread2.prod.itd.earthlink.net>,
>poy...@earthlink.net writes:
>> Is it just me, or is it a real similarty. Could the Jewish faith be borrowed
>> from the Ancient Egyptians Myth.
>Ancient religions were sort of like Microsoft. They would steal anything
>that gave them a competitive advantage. Judaism was built on religions that
>were much older, and in some cases more sophisticated. Egyptian myth
>certainly was important, as was Canaanite and Persian myth. Several of the
>Psalms are direct translations of Egyptian hymns to various gods.
I have this image an multiple antitrust suits against the Maccabees.
--
Leave history that requires force to protect it at the door.
-- The Iron Webmaster, 12
Agamemnon
>
> Larry Caldwell <lar...@teleport.com> wrote in message
> news:MPG.1694d5297...@news.earthlink.net...
> > In article <yvaW7.17932$Cw3.1...@newsread2.prod.itd.earthlink.net>,
> > poy...@earthlink.net writes:
> >
> > > Is it just me, or is it a real similarty. Could the Jewish faith be
> borrowed
> > > from the Ancient Egyptians Myth.
> >
> > Ancient religions were sort of like Microsoft. They would steal
anything
> > that gave them a competitive advantage.
>
> YES ...... But, "advantage" is such a lose term, it can lead people
> anywhere!!
>
> ~ "steal" for what? Its very likely that the reason why, they
> "steal"... was to
> make it easier for people whom for example..... conquered to be
> assimilated, into
> the conquers way of life....... or from one empire or way of life to
anther
>
> example:
>
>
> Thoth to hermes
> ( Egyptian) to ( Greek )
>
> Of course in many cases......additional beliefs were added, which is why
> there is
> marked difference.
Hermes is just another corruption of the name Tammuz so of cause its related
to the name Throh which is also a corruption of the name Tammuz.
Ares is a corruption of Horus as is Orestes. They all derive form the same
root as the Hittite Tartan, or Artat (Mittani) from which also derive the
names Tera (Latin), Tharah (Biblical), Thera(s) (Greek), Tartak (Assyrian),
Taurus (Tyrian), and even Tarkan (Turkish). Their common root is clearly
without doubt the Greek word "Tartaros/Tartaron". It is ONLY in GREEK that
you obtain both the declinations "os" and "on" which appear in all the other
words.
These were the names of ancient Kings not gods.
From Tartarus you not only obtain the Hittite name Artat as I have said but
also Atalus, and Antilis.
Chronologically Tartarus would have ruled in about 1775 BC whereas as the
Hittite king Hantilis I ruled in 1600 BC.
Now the question is what was Tharah the father of Abraham doing with a Greek
and if not Greek which is most definitely an Indo-European name ?
The Hittite name Myrsilus is the same as the Greek Basilaus and the Scythian
Saulus which in the bible become Saul, who was NO "Jew" but a Scyth. Even by
the Bible own admission the scyths were in Palestine at the time of Saul.
>
>
> >Judaism was built on religions
> > that were much older, and in some cases more sophisticated. Egyptian
> > myth certainly was important, as was Canaanite and Persian myth.
Several
> > of the Psalms are direct translations of Egyptian hymns to various gods.
>
> mmm u do see some also in old Turkish religions too! .... but yes your
> right!
What the hell are you talking about. There were NO old Turkish religions.
The Turks were godless Mongols who come form Asia who adopted Islam. They
have NOTHING to do with the indigenous culture of Anatolia.
> are you by Persian referring to sueriain, Babylonian , assyrian ???
> what?
>
> >The earlier references to a serpent were
> > based on a serpent god (Typhon/Python) commonly worshipped throughout
the
> > ancient world.
>
> actualy Typhon, that beaning a greek god , was equated with set!!
Except Typhon happens to be a corruption of Thoth-(on)
>
> set as other names ie ( : seth, setekh, setesh, seti, sutekh, setech,
> sutech)
Set was was a Mittani Hittite king whose name was Shaturna which became
Saturn to the Romans and Shaitan or Satan to the Arabs.
Danny niccoli
Your point being? ....... of course things are "corrupted" ( no i dont
mean this in
a religious context...... but rather from a change and difference from 1
form
to anther)
> Ares is a corruption of Horus as is Orestes. They all derive form the same
> root as the Hittite Tartan, or Artat (Mittani) from which also derive the
> names Tera (Latin), Tharah (Biblical), Thera(s) (Greek), Tartak
(Assyrian),
> Taurus (Tyrian), and even Tarkan (Turkish). Their common root is clearly
> without doubt the Greek word "Tartaros/Tartaron". It is ONLY in GREEK that
> you obtain both the declinations "os" and "on" which appear in all the
other
> words.
>
> These were the names of ancient Kings not gods.
thats your..... along with other peoples interpration.....
REALLY??? ...in turkey..... Catal Huyuk, did have a religion, it was of
a goddess cult,
if you were so good as you claimed to be , you would notice that all
religions
have the tendency, to be linked to some form of fertility cult!! ...... in
Egyptian
context this will be hathor to Isis ........
>
> > are you by Persian referring to sueriain, Babylonian , assyrian ???
> > what?
> >
> > >The earlier references to a serpent were
> > > based on a serpent god (Typhon/Python) commonly worshipped throughout
> the
> > > ancient world.
> >
> > actualy Typhon, that beaning a greek god , was equated with set!!
>
> Except Typhon happens to be a corruption of Thoth-(on)
YES!!!....... but there is "always/normaly" some form of difference...!!
I am only showing a model, showing the simlarity!
> >
> > set as other names ie ( : seth, setekh, setesh, seti, sutekh, setech,
> > sutech)
>
> Set was was a Mittani Hittite king whose name was Shaturna which became
> Saturn to the Romans and Shaitan or Satan to the Arabs.
maybe?
Agamemnon
>
Hermes and Thoth evolved independently of each other. Unless you are saying
that there was no Thoth until 1650 BC which is the dated of Hermes reign in
Greece.
Goddess cult my foot. There was NEVER any such cult in any part of the world
ever. The goddess cult was and invention of Robert Graves back in the early
1900's.
> if you were so good as you claimed to be , you would notice that all
> religions
> have the tendency, to be linked to some form of fertility cult!! ......
in
But NOT to a a goddess cult. They were all based on an ancestor cult. It was
the KING and his viziers who told the people when to plant their corps and
when to harvest them. Without knowledge of the seasons the harvests would
have failed. The kings were virtually all foreigners with their own private
armies and knowledge of agriculture a who migrated to set up colonies and
introduced agriculture to the people that flocked to live around the cities
which they built.
> Egyptian
> context this will be hathor to Isis ........
Hathor is a corruption of Assura, which is also Sara. Its the common title
of a queen.
> >
> > > are you by Persian referring to sueriain, Babylonian , assyrian
???
> > > what?
> > >
> > > >The earlier references to a serpent were
> > > > based on a serpent god (Typhon/Python) commonly worshipped
throughout
> > the
> > > > ancient world.
> > >
> > > actualy Typhon, that beaning a greek god , was equated with set!!
> >
> > Except Typhon happens to be a corruption of Thoth-(on)
>
> YES!!!....... but there is "always/normaly" some form of difference...!!
> I am only showing a model, showing the simlarity!
Typhon c.1628/1600 was most probably the Tutmoses who Maneth say expelled
the Hyksos (Greek Ectenes) form Egypt)
>
> > >
> > > set as other names ie ( : seth, setekh, setesh, seti, sutekh,
setech,
> > > sutech)
> >
> > Set was was a Mittani Hittite king whose name was Shaturna which became
> > Saturn to the Romans and Shaitan or Satan to the Arabs.
>
> maybe?
Shaturna ruled around 1600 BC, the time of the Hyksos expulsion according to
the El-Armana letters. Later on Akenaton, Nefer-kheferu-re (1350-1334) asks
the Mittani king to send a prince to marry an Egyptian princes for the fist
time in history. But before he can arrive the prince is murdered. This story
is the basis of the Persues myth, where Cepheus (kheferu-re) the Ethiopian
king of Joppa is forced to sacrifice his daughter Andromeda to the sea
monster Cetus (Shaturna).
This event dates Deukalions flood to 1450 BC and makes Teucer the king of
Phrygia who lived at the same time Tudhalia II the king of the Hittites.
This is based on the late Chronology which fits in with a date for the
Trojen war of 1193 BC but originally the Deukalion story was set in the
reign of Tudhalia I'st who reigned in c.1628 BC. The Greeks mixed their
Hittites kings up.
Later on Pelops the son of Tantalus was expelled as king of Phrygia and
Lydia and went to Greece.
Tantalus is a corruption of the Lydian name Candeules which in Greek is
Myrsilus (Herodotus) and this makes it clear that Tantalus was either
Mursilis II c.1245 or Mursilis III c.1282 the king of the Hittites.
Again the Greeks ballsed up their dates and because of this created two
Pelops and two Tantaluses.
Pelops I was c.1315 Muvattalis king of the Hittites and this Pelops was the
father of Pitthius the grandfather of Theseus. This Pelops was murdered and
in typical Hittites custom was sever to the gods for lunch. Then another
Tantalus comes to the throne, Pelops murderer and according to Greek myth he
is punished by the Gods in Tartarus and Pelops is resurrected and is most
probably Urhi-Teshup c.1275 who reigned less than a year. This second Pelops
was the father of Atreus the father of Agamemnon which is the only way you
can explain why Agamemnon was technically a generation younger than Theseus
yet he reigns after Theseus death.
The start of Atreus reign can be positively dated to 1223 BC since it is
makerd by a solar Eclipse and the best candidate visible form Greece
occurred in that year which fits in perfectly with the 1193 dating for the
Trojan war.
Herakles date of conception is also marked by a total solar Eclipse which
occurred in February 1288 BC. This eclipse was visible directly over Mycenae
and is an even better candidate than the one above. This would mean that
Herakels was born in November, and infact the records state that he was born
when the Sun was in the 10th constipation, which in Roman times would have
place his birth in December but because of the precessions of the earth
orbit, in 1288 the sun was in the 10th constellation in November. The most
likely date is October 31/November 1 which was celebrated as the feast of
Beltane, since Herakles original name was Palamon (Baal-Adamon/s).
Hope
>Goddess cult my foot. There was NEVER any such cult in any part of the world
>ever. The goddess cult was and invention of Robert Graves back in the early
>1900's.
You seem to be saying something totally absurd here, so I must be
misunderstanding. What is your definition of "goddess cult"? The
numerous " Venus" figures, found in Cro-Magnon sites throughout Europe
and Asia, would certainly seem to indicate that there was some sort of
Earth Mother/ Goddess that was given homage. Or do you explain those
away as simply a bored hunter's attempt to sculpt his girlfriend or
invent Playboy?
>
>> if you were so good as you claimed to be , you would notice that all
>> religions
>> have the tendency, to be linked to some form of fertility cult!! ......
>in
>
>But NOT to a a goddess cult. They were all based on an ancestor cult.
All? Really? There was not a single ancient civilization that was not
based on an ancestor cult? That is quite a bold statement, and I have
not seen many scholars flocking to agree with it.
> It was
>the KING and his viziers who told the people when to plant their corps and
>when to harvest them. Without knowledge of the seasons the harvests would
>have failed. The kings were virtually all foreigners with their own private
>armies and knowledge of agriculture a who migrated to set up colonies and
>introduced agriculture to the people that flocked to live around the cities
>which they built.
What is your evidence for this? Are you implying that all the
indigenous people were too ignorant to note the changing of the
seasons for themselves and were simply hunter/gatherers before some
"master race" came to save them from themselves? Now *that* sounds
like a familiar tale!
>
>> Egyptian
>> context this will be hathor to Isis ........
>
>Hathor is a corruption of Assura, which is also Sara. Its the common title
>of a queen.
>
Again, this is fascinating, but upon what do you base this assertion?
Could you perhaps provide a link explaining how these different names
morphed from the parent name? I'm certain that it doesn't come across
well in English. Assura/Sara seems plausible. Assura/Hathor seems
quite a stretch in English. Is it closer in the original alphabet?
>> >
>
>Typhon c.1628/1600 was most probably the Tutmoses who Maneth say expelled
>the Hyksos (Greek Ectenes) form Egypt)
>> > Set was was a Mittani Hittite king whose name was Shaturna which became
>> > Saturn to the Romans and Shaitan or Satan to the Arabs.
It would be so helpful if you could explain by what method you (or
someone) reached this conclusion. I have a difficult time accepting
something as fact just because it is stated forcefully or preceded by
a phrase such as "Of, course, everyone knows..." or "There is no
doubt..." or "It is obvious that..."
>>
?
>
>Shaturna ruled around 1600 BC, the time of the Hyksos expulsion according to
>the El-Armana letters. Later on Akenaton, Nefer-kheferu-re (1350-1334) asks
>the Mittani king to send a prince to marry an Egyptian princes for the fist
>time in history. But before he can arrive the prince is murdered. This story
>is the basis of the Persues myth, where Cepheus (kheferu-re) the Ethiopian
>king of Joppa is forced to sacrifice his daughter Andromeda to the sea
>monster Cetus (Shaturna).
You have the elements jumbled here. It was not Akhenaton who asked
that a prince be sent. It seems, based on a cuneiform letter found in
the Amarna archives, that the widow of Tutankhamon wrote to the
Hittite king asking that he send one of his sons to marry her. Her
rationale was that her husband was dead, she had no son, and she found
the thought of marrying one of her subjects "distasteful." Most
scholars assume this "subject" was Horemheb, (or less likely Ay,) both
of whom did take the throne.
Jumbled attributes aside, how do you go from that to sacrificing a
daughter to a sea monster? What is the basis of your "connection?"
Also, I am not aware that the Amarna letters provided a date for the
Hyksos expulsion. Egyptians were well aware of when that occurred and
venerated their "saviors," Seqenenre Tao, Kamose, and Ahmose, and the
strong dynastic queens who supported them in their efforts,
Tetisheri, Ahhotep, and Ahmose-Nefertari.
Please do take pity on the ignorant and provide some evidence other
than your own assertions. This might help us to help us see the light
if you hope to make converts. Thank you.
Hope
>>
>>Shaturna ruled around 1600 BC, the time of the Hyksos expulsion according to
>>the El-Armana letters. Later on Akenaton, Nefer-kheferu-re (1350-1334) asks
>>the Mittani king to send a prince to marry an Egyptian princes for the fist
>>time in history. But before he can arrive the prince is murdered. This story
>>is the basis of the Persues myth, where Cepheus (kheferu-re) the Ethiopian
>>king of Joppa is forced to sacrifice his daughter Andromeda to the sea
>>monster Cetus (Shaturna).
>
>You have the elements jumbled here. It was not Akhenaton who asked
>that a prince be sent. It seems, based on a cuneiform letter found in
>the Amarna archives, that the widow of Tutankhamon wrote to the
>Hittite king asking that he send one of his sons to marry her. Her
>rationale was that her husband was dead, she had no son, and she found
>the thought of marrying one of her subjects "distasteful." Most
>scholars assume this "subject" was Horemheb, (or less likely Ay,) both
>of whom did take the throne.
>
tablet giving the account of the letters from Queen Ankhesenamun and
the Hittite prince are from the Hittite archives, not the Amarna
archives. Amarna had, of course, already been abandoned by this time.
Once again, my passion outruns my discipline. I hate when that
happens! My apologies.
Agamemnon
"Hope" <cal...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:q42s2u8d2ufa1p8o5...@4ax.com...
>
> >Goddess cult my foot. There was NEVER any such cult in any part of the
world
> >ever. The goddess cult was and invention of Robert Graves back in the
early
> >1900's.
>
> You seem to be saying something totally absurd here, so I must be
> misunderstanding. What is your definition of "goddess cult"? The
> numerous " Venus" figures, found in Cro-Magnon sites throughout Europe
Venus figures = Pornography.
And as for Cro-Magnon, wasn't that an invention of Sir Arthur Conan Coye in
The Lost World ?
> and Asia, would certainly seem to indicate that there was some sort of
> Earth Mother/ Goddess that was given homage. Or do you explain those
No it does not and no there wasn't. What existed was a prostitution cult in
the temples of Ishtar and Aphrodite which continued until it was abolished
by Constantine.
> away as simply a bored hunter's attempt to sculpt his girlfriend or
> invent Playboy?
Correct.
> >
> >> if you were so good as you claimed to be , you would notice that all
> >> religions
> >> have the tendency, to be linked to some form of fertility cult!!
......
> >in
> >
> >But NOT to a a goddess cult. They were all based on an ancestor cult.
>
> All? Really? There was not a single ancient civilization that was not
> based on an ancestor cult? That is quite a bold statement, and I have
> not seen many scholars flocking to agree with it.
Go take a look at some native American Totem Poles. Each time a new chief
took over a new figure was added to the pole. Ancestor Cult !
>
> > It was
> >the KING and his viziers who told the people when to plant their corps
and
> >when to harvest them. Without knowledge of the seasons the harvests would
> >have failed. The kings were virtually all foreigners with their own
private
> >armies and knowledge of agriculture a who migrated to set up colonies and
> >introduced agriculture to the people that flocked to live around the
cities
> >which they built.
>
> What is your evidence for this? Are you implying that all the
> indigenous people were too ignorant to note the changing of the
> seasons for themselves and were simply hunter/gatherers before some
Of cause they were ignorant. The planting seasons in Mesopotamia and Egypt
depended on the flooding cycles of the Euphrates and Nile and these could
only be predicted by taking constant measurements of water levels and the
extent to which the irrigation canals were being used. This was the basis of
the Potamos or Tammuz river cult which is the father of ALL religions. No
water for irrigation, no cops.
> "master race" came to save them from themselves? Now *that* sounds
> like a familiar tale!
> >
> >> Egyptian
> >> context this will be hathor to Isis ........
> >
> >Hathor is a corruption of Assura, which is also Sara. Its the common
title
> >of a queen.
> >
> Again, this is fascinating, but upon what do you base this assertion?
> Could you perhaps provide a link explaining how these different names
> morphed from the parent name? I'm certain that it doesn't come across
> well in English. Assura/Sara seems plausible. Assura/Hathor seems
> quite a stretch in English. Is it closer in the original alphabet?
Hathor(u) = Athor(u) = Assura = Ashura
The final R is pronounced "Ru" as in Russia
>
> >
> >Typhon c.1628/1600 was most probably the Tutmoses who Maneth say expelled
> >the Hyksos (Greek Ectenes) form Egypt)
>
> >> > Set was was a Mittani Hittite king whose name was Shaturna which
became
> >> > Saturn to the Romans and Shaitan or Satan to the Arabs.
>
> It would be so helpful if you could explain by what method you (or
> someone) reached this conclusion. I have a difficult time accepting
> something as fact just because it is stated forcefully or preceded by
> a phrase such as "Of, course, everyone knows..." or "There is no
> doubt..." or "It is obvious that..."
5 cognates from 5 different cultures is more than enough to establish a
linguistic dependencey. Add a 6th - the Satyrs from Greek mythology, and a
7th Cetus who were all portrayed as demons or tyrants.
> ?
> >
> >Shaturna ruled around 1600 BC, the time of the Hyksos expulsion according
to
> >the El-Armana letters. Later on Akenaton, Nefer-kheferu-re (1350-1334)
asks
> >the Mittani king to send a prince to marry an Egyptian princes for the
fist
> >time in history. But before he can arrive the prince is murdered. This
story
> >is the basis of the Persues myth, where Cepheus (kheferu-re) the
Ethiopian
> >king of Joppa is forced to sacrifice his daughter Andromeda to the sea
> >monster Cetus (Shaturna).
>
> You have the elements jumbled here. It was not Akhenaton who asked
> that a prince be sent. It seems, based on a cuneiform letter found in
> the Amarna archives, that the widow of Tutankhamon wrote to the
> Hittite king asking that he send one of his sons to marry her. Her
> rationale was that her husband was dead, she had no son, and she found
> the thought of marrying one of her subjects "distasteful." Most
She was also Akenatons daughter and Tutankhamons sister so the Greek version
is still valid.
> scholars assume this "subject" was Horemheb, (or less likely Ay,) both
> of whom did take the throne.
Very likely since Manetho calls her Acenchres and mekas her the sister of
Rathotis (Tutankhamun). Later on in Josephus dissembled version of Manetho
accun she is called Acencheres and is given two concurrent reigns 12y5m and
12y3m which add up to virtually the same length of time that Horemheb
reigned. The fact that Horemheb was a commoner explains why Acenchres is
named and not him.
Further more Apollodorus and Herodotus have Herakles murder Horemheb and his
son. Except this Herakels was infact Alcius the son of Perseus which was the
orginal name of Herakles also known as Palamon.
Apollodorus
[2.5.11] After Libya he traversed Egypt. That country [p. 225] was then
ruled by Busiris, a son of Poseidon by Lysianassa, daughter of Epaphus. This
Busiris used to sacrifice strangers on an altar of Zeus in accordance with a
certain oracle. For Egypt was visited with dearth for nine years, and
Phrasius, a learned seer who had come from Cyprus, said that the dearth [p.
227] would cease if they slaughtered a stranger man in honor of Zeus every
year. Busiris began by slaughtering the seer himself and continued to
slaughter the strangers who landed. So Hercules also was seized and haled to
the altars, but he burst his bonds and slew both Busiris and his son
Amphidamas. "
According to the bible a 7 year long famine occurs in the reign of Horemheb
when Joseph is made chancellor of Egypt.
http://www.argyros.argyrou.btinternet.co.uk/myths/bible/History.htm
This is backed up be Herodotus who states:
"Herodotus [2.13.1] One fact which I learnt of the priests is to me a strong
evidence of the origin of the country. They said that when Moeris was king,
the Nile overflowed all Egypt below Memphis, as soon as it rose so little as
eight cubits. Now Moeris had not been dead 900 years at the time when I
heard this of the priests; yet at the present day, unless the river rise
sixteen, or, at the very least, fifteen cubits, it does not overflow the
lands." (Herodotus wrote in ~440 BC)
Busiris, Moeris, Bocehoris (according to Lysimachus) and Horemheb 1321-1293
were all the same person.
>
> Jumbled attributes aside, how do you go from that to sacrificing a
Nothing was jumbled up. Ankhesenamen was still Akenatons daughter which
makes her the basis of Andromeda. Akenatons wife was also vain like Cepheus
wife Cassiopia.
> daughter to a sea monster? What is the basis of your "connection?"
Probably because the Greek word for Trireme or Triakontoron was corrupted to
Dragon, so you end up with a sea monster instead of a ship sent to collect
the princess.
>
> Also, I am not aware that the Amarna letters provided a date for the
> Hyksos expulsion. Egyptians were well aware of when that occurred and
The Hyksos expulsion continued from 1628 until the end of the reign of
Turmoses III \and the Mittani kings are know up to 1600 which is when the
dynasty began.
> venerated their "saviors," Seqenenre Tao, Kamose, and Ahmose, and the
> strong dynastic queens who supported them in their efforts,
> Tetisheri, Ahhotep, and Ahmose-Nefertari.
Manetho makes Kamose, Khamudy Aasehre, Ahmose and Assis one and the same and
lists him as the last Hyksos king. Greek Mythology makes him Cadmus who was
expelled from Egypt and the bible calls him Arphaxad. All are these kings
given exactly the same reign.
http://www.argyros.argyrou.btinternet.co.uk/myths/bible/ParaApion.htm
The Bible makes Nefrod, or Nimrod the king who expels the Hyksos which makes
him Amenhotep I (Nefer-kheferu-re).
Hope
>
>Venus figures = Pornography.
In your eyes, perhaps. That does not make it so for the entire world.
The human figure is only obscene if you wish to attach unhealthy and
harmful sexual or sadomasochistic meaning to it. Humans can make
*anything* obscene, no matter how innocent.
>
>And as for Cro-Magnon, wasn't that an invention of Sir Arthur Conan Coye in
>The Lost World ?
>
In a word, NO. I see reality-based dialogue with you is going to be
impossible.
>>
>> All? Really? There was not a single ancient civilization that was not
>> based on an ancestor cult? That is quite a bold statement, and I have
>> not seen many scholars flocking to agree with it.
>
>Go take a look at some native American Totem Poles. Each time a new chief
>took over a new figure was added to the pole. Ancestor Cult !
And? From this and a couple of other examples you extrapolate that
each and every civilization had an ancestor cult and there were no
goddess cults? You could just as easily "prove" that garlic keeps
vampires away, since you can find no vampires in any kitchen in which
there is garlic.
>
>>
>> > It was
>> >the KING and his viziers who told the people when to plant their corps
>and
>> >when to harvest them. Without knowledge of the seasons the harvests would
>> >have failed. The kings were virtually all foreigners with their own
>private
>> >armies and knowledge of agriculture a who migrated to set up colonies and
>> >introduced agriculture to the people that flocked to live around the
>cities
>> >which they built.
>>
>> What is your evidence for this? Are you implying that all the
>> indigenous people were too ignorant to note the changing of the
>> seasons for themselves and were simply hunter/gatherers before some
>
>Of cause they were ignorant. The planting seasons in Mesopotamia and Egypt
>depended on the flooding cycles of the Euphrates and Nile and these could
>only be predicted by taking constant measurements of water levels and the
>extent to which the irrigation canals were being used. This was the basis of
>the Potamos or Tammuz river cult which is the father of ALL religions. No
>water for irrigation, no cops.
Duh! But do you not think that the indiginous population could figure
that out for themselves, since their very lives depended upon it? Why
would "foreigners" have to come and instruct them in what was going on
in their own backyards? Let me guess. Are you a decendent of this
master race?
>
>> >
>> >Hathor is a corruption of Assura, which is also Sara. Its the common
>title
>> >of a queen.
>> >
>> Again, this is fascinating, but upon what do you base this assertion?
>> Could you perhaps provide a link explaining how these different names
>> morphed from the parent name? I'm certain that it doesn't come across
>> well in English. Assura/Sara seems plausible. Assura/Hathor seems
>> quite a stretch in English. Is it closer in the original alphabet?
>
>Hathor(u) = Athor(u) = Assura = Ashura
It seems quite a jump from Athor to Assura. Lots of letter changes! Do
you have documentation for this?
>> >Typhon c.1628/1600 was most probably the Tutmoses who Maneth say expelled
>> >the Hyksos (Greek Ectenes) form Egypt)
>>
>> >> > Set was was a Mittani Hittite king whose name was Shaturna which
>became
>> >> > Saturn to the Romans and Shaitan or Satan to the Arabs.
>>
>> It would be so helpful if you could explain by what method you (or
>> someone) reached this conclusion. I have a difficult time accepting
>> something as fact just because it is stated forcefully or preceded by
>> a phrase such as "Of, course, everyone knows..." or "There is no
>> doubt..." or "It is obvious that..."
>
>5 cognates from 5 different cultures is more than enough to establish a
>linguistic dependencey. Add a 6th - the Satyrs from Greek mythology, and a
>7th Cetus who were all portrayed as demons or tyrants.
I was speaking of your evidence that Set was a Mittani Hittite king.
I've read no evidence that the two identifiable cultures were ever
ruled by one king, let alone by Set. If you want to discuss the roots
of the Indo-European language or other language groups, that's a
different topic.
>
>
>> ?
>> >
>> >Shaturna ruled around 1600 BC, the time of the Hyksos expulsion according
>to
>> >the El-Armana letters. Later on Akenaton, Nefer-kheferu-re (1350-1334)
>asks
>> >the Mittani king to send a prince to marry an Egyptian princes for the
>fist
>> >time in history. But before he can arrive the prince is murdered. This
>story
>> >is the basis of the Persues myth, where Cepheus (kheferu-re) the
>Ethiopian
>> >king of Joppa is forced to sacrifice his daughter Andromeda to the sea
>> >monster Cetus (Shaturna).
>>
>> You have the elements jumbled here. It was not Akhenaton who asked
>> that a prince be sent. It seems, based on a cuneiform letter found in
>> the Amarna archives, that the widow of Tutankhamon wrote to the
>> Hittite king asking that he send one of his sons to marry her. Her
>> rationale was that her husband was dead, she had no son, and she found
>> the thought of marrying one of her subjects "distasteful." Most
>
>She was also Akenatons daughter and Tutankhamons sister so the Greek version
>is still valid.
That proves nothing. You misstated the "facts" to begin with, and
there is no proof that Tutankhamon was a full brother to Akhenaton's
daughters. He may not have been Akhenaton's son at all, though he was
most certainly related.
>
>> scholars assume this "subject" was Horemheb, (or less likely Ay,) both
>> of whom did take the throne.
>
>Very likely since Manetho calls her Acenchres and mekas her the sister of
>Rathotis (Tutankhamun). Later on in Josephus dissembled version of Manetho
>accun she is called Acencheres and is given two concurrent reigns 12y5m and
>12y3m which add up to virtually the same length of time that Horemheb
>reigned. The fact that Horemheb was a commoner explains why Acenchres is
>named and not him.
>
>Further more Apollodorus and Herodotus have Herakles murder Horemheb and his
>son.
What are you babbling about? There is no historical evidence Horemheb
had a son.
>
>According to the bible a 7 year long famine occurs in the reign of Horemheb
>when Joseph is made chancellor of Egypt.
>
Nonsense. The Bible does not mention Horemheb at all, nor does it tell
under which Pharoah Joseph served. If it did, there would be no debate
about that matter or the date of the Exodus.
>http://www.argyros.argyrou.btinternet.co.uk/myths/bible/History.htm
>
>This is backed up be Herodotus who states:
>
>"Herodotus [2.13.1] One fact which I learnt of the priests is to me a strong
>evidence of the origin of the country. They said that when Moeris was king,
>the Nile overflowed all Egypt below Memphis, as soon as it rose so little as
>eight cubits. Now Moeris had not been dead 900 years at the time when I
>heard this of the priests; yet at the present day, unless the river rise
>sixteen, or, at the very least, fifteen cubits, it does not overflow the
>lands." (Herodotus wrote in ~440 BC)
What does this have to do with anything we were discussing? Razzle
dazzle.
>
>Busiris, Moeris, Bocehoris (according to Lysimachus) and Horemheb 1321-1293
>were all the same person.
Why? What is the evidence that these four are one and the same?
>
>>
>> Jumbled attributes aside, how do you go from that to sacrificing a
>
>Nothing was jumbled up. Ankhesenamen was still Akenatons daughter which
>makes her the basis of Andromeda. Akenatons wife was also vain like Cepheus
>wife Cassiopia.
All you have done is string together a lot of names and "facts" that
you believe, without giving any scholarly or scientific evidence to
back up your claims. Good grief, you want to "prove" Nefertiti and
Cassiopia were the same person because they were both vain?? That's
brilliant. And what proof do you have that Nefertiti was vain? Do you
assume she *must* have been, since so many people today consider her
bust beautiful?
Where in the world did you study deductive reasoning and the
scientific method? According to you, A=B so therefore B=D, E, and F.
>
>
>> daughter to a sea monster? What is the basis of your "connection?"
>
>Probably because the Greek word for Trireme or Triakontoron was corrupted to
>Dragon, so you end up with a sea monster instead of a ship sent to collect
>the princess.
Besides the fact that makes no sense, no one and nothing was sent to
collect the princess in the Egyptian incident. The Hittite prince was
dispatched to Egypt and was ambushed shortly after crossing the
border.
>>
>
>The Bible makes Nefrod, or Nimrod the king who expels the Hyksos which makes
>him Amenhotep I (Nefer-kheferu-re).
*shaking my head* I see that we would have better luck getting blood
from a turnip than extracting any kind of logic from you.
Thank you for your time. Don't trouble yourself to respond further.
Islam is growing
The Evidence from Science Reveals That The Qur'an is The Word of God
Day Brown
>
> MIRACLES OF THE QUR'AN
> The Evidence from Science Reveals That The Qur'an is The Word of God
of science. And if it were Divine word, no one would ever
be able to justify despicability with it.
I dont, however, doubt for a minute that Islam is growing;
as Barnum said, "There's another sucker born every minute."
Then too, there is the Roman syllogism:
The people believe all religion to be true.
The philosophers believe all religion to be false.
The politicians know all religion to be useful.
I am sorry to rain on your parade, I spoze you mean well,
but history shows the Levantine scriptures have always
preached peace from the pulpits, but... never been able
to deliver it on the streets.
There is a culture discovered by Archaeology which lived for
4000 years without war. That is all the divine message I need.
You might wanna look into Native European spirituality. There
is some evidence that it is growing faster than Islam, but it
is not organized, has no steep pyramidal power structure, and
no alliances with any political systems, so... it hasnt been
counted.
b...@antispam.net
cal...@yahoo.com says...
> You seem to be saying something totally absurd here, so I must be
> misunderstanding. What is your definition of "goddess cult"? The
> numerous " Venus" figures, found in Cro-Magnon sites throughout Europe
> and Asia, would certainly seem to indicate that there was some sort of
> Earth Mother/ Goddess that was given homage. Or do you explain those
> away as simply a bored hunter's attempt to sculpt his girlfriend or
> invent Playboy?
While not trying to defend the original statement, the fact
is that we do not know what those "Venus" figures were or
what they stood for. One of the guides at Lascaux II said
it nicely, I.e., we project our views of religion on them,
but we have no way of knowing if they actually were
religious, or something else. That is, whatever they
thought could be completely foreign to us.
Having said that, I think inventing Playboy is the best
answer.
Larry Caldwell
> In article <MPG.1695eb367...@news.earthlink.net>, Larry Caldwell
> <lar...@teleport.com> wrote:
> > If you really want to get into flying saucer myth, you should read Erich
> > Von Daniken's _Chariots of the Gods_. It's a classic, that pins almost
> > everything that any ancient culture did on extraterrestrial influences.
> I agree with you: it is a classic! A classic of half-truths, down-right
> lies, and half-baked speculations. It is also a classic in how to push the
> right buttons in the gullible and uneducated.
I have never seen a flying saucer nut converted by either logic or facts.
Their beliefs are indeed a religion, based on faith, fantasy and wish
fulfillment, just like every other religion. I find flying saucer gods
every bit as respectable as any other god, which is to say, not at all.
Still, religion is a fact of human existence. You have to deal with it.
> Be so kind as to talk about archaeology on an archaeology newsgroup.
The topic under discussion was Egyptian myth and Christian Faith. There
are millions of Christians waiting for the Rapture, when Jesus will come
in a flying saucer to take them to heaven. Millions of other people
believe that flying saucer gods built the pyramids. If they want to fly
into that delusional mirror, who am I to spoil their fun? Instead, I
load them up on Cayce, Churchward, Von Daniken and Velikovsky. If we are
lucky, they will blow their gourd and end up on meds, where they should
have been in the first place.
"Thinking is hard," said Barbie.
Agamemnon
>
> >
> >Venus figures = Pornography.
>
> In your eyes, perhaps. That does not make it so for the entire world.
> The human figure is only obscene if you wish to attach unhealthy and
> harmful sexual or sadomasochistic meaning to it. Humans can make
> *anything* obscene, no matter how innocent.
When did I say anything about it being obscene.
> >>
> >> All? Really? There was not a single ancient civilization that was not
> >> based on an ancestor cult? That is quite a bold statement, and I have
> >> not seen many scholars flocking to agree with it.
> >
> >Go take a look at some native American Totem Poles. Each time a new chief
> >took over a new figure was added to the pole. Ancestor Cult !
>
> And? From this and a couple of other examples you extrapolate that
> each and every civilization had an ancestor cult and there were no
> goddess cults? You could just as easily "prove" that garlic keeps
> vampires away, since you can find no vampires in any kitchen in which
> there is garlic.
And on what do you base your argument that early man worshiped spiritual
gods. On a few conversation that Christian missionaries had with tribes in
Africa which they interfered with by trying to covert them. Its all made up.
Do you know how many people it takes to did an irrigation canal system over
1000 miles long ? Do you know that if there was no organised labour that the
canal system would have been impossible to build or maintain let alone use.
Go and read the Decent of Ishtar story which tells you what happens if you
build to many irrigation canals which dry the river up completly.
> would "foreigners" have to come and instruct them in what was going on
> in their own backyards? Let me guess. Are you a decendent of this
> master race?
Without someone to give the orders about water use and conservation and when
to plant the crops large scale agriculture would have been impossible.
Without someone who had a large enough army to fend of bandits, farming of
animals would have been futile.
Go
> >
> >> >
> >> >Hathor is a corruption of Assura, which is also Sara. Its the common
> >title
> >> >of a queen.
> >> >
> >> Again, this is fascinating, but upon what do you base this assertion?
> >> Could you perhaps provide a link explaining how these different names
> >> morphed from the parent name? I'm certain that it doesn't come across
> >> well in English. Assura/Sara seems plausible. Assura/Hathor seems
> >> quite a stretch in English. Is it closer in the original alphabet?
> >
> >Hathor(u) = Athor(u) = Assura = Ashura
>
> It seems quite a jump from Athor to Assura. Lots of letter changes! Do
> you have documentation for this?
There is only ONE letter change and that is from "SH" to "TH" which is very
common in Afro-Asiatic influenced languages.
Vowels were NEVER present in the original script.
> >> >Typhon c.1628/1600 was most probably the Tutmoses who Maneth say
expelled
> >> >the Hyksos (Greek Ectenes) form Egypt)
> >>
> >> >> > Set was was a Mittani Hittite king whose name was Shaturna which
> >became
> >> >> > Saturn to the Romans and Shaitan or Satan to the Arabs.
> >>
> >> It would be so helpful if you could explain by what method you (or
> >> someone) reached this conclusion. I have a difficult time accepting
> >> something as fact just because it is stated forcefully or preceded by
> >> a phrase such as "Of, course, everyone knows..." or "There is no
> >> doubt..." or "It is obvious that..."
> >
> >5 cognates from 5 different cultures is more than enough to establish a
> >linguistic dependencey. Add a 6th - the Satyrs from Greek mythology, and
a
> >7th Cetus who were all portrayed as demons or tyrants.
>
> I was speaking of your evidence that Set was a Mittani Hittite king.
* Kirta
* Shuttarna I......................................fl. c. < 1550
* Parattarna
* Parsatatar.........................................fl. c. 1500
* Sausatatar.........................................fl. c. 1480
* Artatama...........................................fl. c. 1450
* Shuttarna II
* Artashshumara....................................fl. c. < 1390
* Tushratta..........................................fl. c. 1360
* Hittite vassals
* Kurtiwaza...................................fl. c. < 1350
* Shuttarna III.................................fl. c. 1340
* Shattuara I.................................fl. c. < 1300
* Wasashatta....................................fl. c. 1300
* Shattuara II..................................fl. c. 1270
* To Assyria........................................from c. 1270
> I've read no evidence that the two identifiable cultures were ever
> ruled by one king, let alone by Set. If you want to discuss the roots
Mittani was an Egyptian Vassal from the time the Hyksos were expelled.
According to Manetho Acenchres was Tutankhamons sister PERIOD.
The Greek myth states that Andromeda was Cepheus daughter and Acenchres was
the daughter of kheferu-re i.e. Cepheus. Both their mothers were vain. Both
were to be given away as sacrificed. And both had their future husbands
murdered. How do you know that Akhenaton didnt give his daughter away to
Perseus.
> >
> >> scholars assume this "subject" was Horemheb, (or less likely Ay,) both
> >> of whom did take the throne.
> >
> >Very likely since Manetho calls her Acenchres and mekas her the sister of
> >Rathotis (Tutankhamun). Later on in Josephus dissembled version of
Manetho
> >accun she is called Acencheres and is given two concurrent reigns 12y5m
and
> >12y3m which add up to virtually the same length of time that Horemheb
> >reigned. The fact that Horemheb was a commoner explains why Acenchres is
> >named and not him.
> >
> >Further more Apollodorus and Herodotus have Herakles murder Horemheb and
his
> >son.
>
> What are you babbling about? There is no historical evidence Horemheb
> had a son.
Because he was murdered by Herakles !
>
>
> >
> >According to the bible a 7 year long famine occurs in the reign of
Horemheb
> >when Joseph is made chancellor of Egypt.
> >
> Nonsense. The Bible does not mention Horemheb at all, nor does it tell
> under which Pharoah Joseph served. If it did, there would be no debate
> about that matter or the date of the Exodus.
POPPYCOCK. The Bible state that Josephs Egyptian name was Psom-thom-fanich
which is Tut-anch-amon. Its pretty clear when Joseph live and that he was a
contemporary of Horemheb. The bible give DATE for when Joseph live and for
when the so-called famine occurred and these dates corresponded to the Reign
of Horemheb. Herodotus also corroborates the famine in Hormemhebs reign, and
gives a precise date for it. Lysmahus also corroborates the famine and so do
the Hittite records. Joseph in Greek since Greek is the langue that the
Bible was originally written in, is Ios-Sephus which means son of Cepheus.
Cepheus being Amenhotep IV or kheferu-re. Its no wonder Joseph was called
Tut-anch-amon because the Biblical story was CONCOCTED FICTION based on the
Egyptian annals and spans the reigns of Akenaton through to the final year
of Set I which is PRECISELY the year of Josephs death. Even the year that
Tut-anch-amon took the throne corresponds to the year Joseph was abducted
and taken to Egypt.
>
> >http://www.argyros.argyrou.btinternet.co.uk/myths/bible/History.htm
> >
> >This is backed up be Herodotus who states:
> >
> >"Herodotus [2.13.1] One fact which I learnt of the priests is to me a
strong
> >evidence of the origin of the country. They said that when Moeris was
king,
> >the Nile overflowed all Egypt below Memphis, as soon as it rose so little
as
> >eight cubits. Now Moeris had not been dead 900 years at the time when I
> >heard this of the priests; yet at the present day, unless the river rise
> >sixteen, or, at the very least, fifteen cubits, it does not overflow the
> >lands." (Herodotus wrote in ~440 BC)
>
> What does this have to do with anything we were discussing? Razzle
> dazzle.
Its substantiates my argument you IGNORAMUS. You are the one who asked me
for evidence but you don't want to even look at it.
> >
> >Busiris, Moeris, Bocehoris (according to Lysimachus) and Horemheb
1321-1293
> >were all the same person.
>
> Why? What is the evidence that these four are one and the same?
I have given you the evidence. The Biblical famine of Joseph took place
during the reign of Bocehoris. The dates given in the bible corroborate that
this famine took place in the reign of Horemheb. Herodotus gives the precise
date for the reign of Moeris which corresponds to that of Hormeheb during
which he state the Nile flooded the entire land unexpectedly which would
have destroyed the entire harvest. And finally the Herakels story is
referring to Alcius the son of Perseus who can be firmly dated to between
1336 and 1286 BC dutring which Horemheb also reigned. Horemheb died without
an heir because Alcius murdered him and his son.
> >
> >>
> >> Jumbled attributes aside, how do you go from that to sacrificing a
> >
> >Nothing was jumbled up. Ankhesenamen was still Akenatons daughter which
> >makes her the basis of Andromeda. Akenatons wife was also vain like
Cepheus
> >wife Cassiopia.
>
> All you have done is string together a lot of names and "facts" that
> you believe, without giving any scholarly or scientific evidence to
> back up your claims. Good grief, you want to "prove" Nefertiti and
I have given you more than enough evidence to back up my arguments.
> Cassiopia were the same person because they were both vain?? That's
> brilliant. And what proof do you have that Nefertiti was vain? Do you
Go and take a look at the pictures of her in Akenatos tomb. It is an
accepted FACT that Nefertiti was vain.
> assume she *must* have been, since so many people today consider her
> bust beautiful?
>
> Where in the world did you study deductive reasoning and the
> scientific method? According to you, A=B so therefore B=D, E, and F.
No. That is according to you. You couldn't solve a quadratic equation to
save you life.
> >
> >
> >> daughter to a sea monster? What is the basis of your "connection?"
> >
> >Probably because the Greek word for Trireme or Triakontoron was corrupted
to
> >Dragon, so you end up with a sea monster instead of a ship sent to
collect
> >the princess.
>
> Besides the fact that makes no sense, no one and nothing was sent to
> collect the princess in the Egyptian incident. The Hittite prince was
Nothing ARRIVED. There is NO evidence that nothing was sent. Nothing arrived
because Perseus destroyed the Trireme or dragon ship.
> dispatched to Egypt and was ambushed shortly after crossing the
> border.
> >>
>
> >
> >The Bible makes Nefrod, or Nimrod the king who expels the Hyksos which
makes
> >him Amenhotep I (Nefer-kheferu-re).
>
> *shaking my head* I see that we would have better luck getting blood
> from a turnip than extracting any kind of logic from you.
>
> Thank you for your time. Don't trouble yourself to respond further.
IGNORANT BRAINWASHED FOOL...
You just want to blindly believe the myth of Judo-Christianity and godhood
and are not prepared to even contemplate it being a fictitious ancestor myth
no differ from those of the Greek. The Greeks have archaeological evidence
to back their myths up with the discoveries of Mycenae and Jason's palace
but the Bible has NOTHING to back up its claims of a Joseph and Abraham
unless they were IMPOSTS as ALL the ancient writers from Mantho to Lysmachus
always claimed.
http://www.argyros.argyrou.btinternet.co.uk/myths/bible/index.htm
MM4G8
>There is NO Hebrew alphabet. The script used in the bible is "Jewish"
>script and is descended from Aramaic script in Hellenistic times. There is
>no question that the Greeks influenced its development. Jewish script has
>NO relation whatsoever to Eastern Phoenician script which is often FALSLY
>termed "Old Hebrew" but which is almost identical to Archaic Greek.
And of course the book review published here some time ago where
prefixes and suffixes are reversed.
The Butcher of Beirut, Eric Sheinerman aka Ariel Sharon. I came
across a reference to Ariel meaning the lion as in El Ari but they didn't
mention that part of it.
That habit of writing things backwards as in yiddish confuses even
them.
--
<A href="http://www.giwersworld.org/mgiwer/whatsay.html">What people
are saying about my website</A>
-- The Iron Webmaster, 1058
Doug MacDonald
If you go back far enough, sooner or later, you get to the end of the line
and there are no ancestor cults ... Consequently, the above quote is
clearly a false assertion ...
Agamemnon
"Doug MacDonald" <Doug_Ma...@email.msn.com> wrote in message
news:#0XgBpUkBHA.1644@cpimsnntpa02...
Don't be an idiot. Mans direct ancestors go back 3 million years. Even an
ape remembers its parents. Or do you still believe in Adam and Eve ?
Danny niccoli
[Deleted]
> > >Venus figures = Pornography.
> >
> > In your eyes, perhaps. That does not make it so for the entire world.
> > The human figure is only obscene if you wish to attach unhealthy and
> > harmful sexual or sadomasochistic meaning to it. Humans can make
> > *anything* obscene, no matter how innocent.
>
> When did I say anything about it being obscene.
..... you didn't , interesting those..... your not addressing the issue as
such,
what argument(S) ? do you have spporting that Venus figures, are in
fact ONLY pornography, rather than goddess cults? ( other than the nudity )
..... There is far more evidence and current thinking ( RATIONAL )
indicating that its not pornography........ The real point is that, This
Goddess cult puts a coffers to your
( I assuming that this is your web site,
http://www.argyros.argyrou.btinternet.co.uk/myths/bible/History.htm
has you keep on referring it to us, then again its poor
scientific practice to base your concepts on one source of information
o there is such a big reason why I note this here ........ we shall see
later why :) )
Hellenistic era, and polytheistic era...... simply put the oldest
religions have a tendency to believe in a creation and pro_creation,
hence a more "monotheistic" era. In A goddess..... that's one reasoning
.......
anther is that they are simply paying respects to nature, and anther , is
its
symbolism of pro_creation and creation on the based of a "human like head"
figure, in short a one god system, and it's natural to assume, the figure
of a woman due to the pro_creation or creation aspect of there
bodies.......
humans are by large very symbolic, but also literal has well !! .......
but unlike you despite me being a Christian, I am very careful in not
asserting that ...... this IS and PROOF that this is 1 god ONLY.
athlougth it COULD be ...... note the word could rather than is!!
( why because I have also argued other arguments, other than plain
pro_Christian ones)
> > >> All? Really? There was not a single ancient civilization that was not
> > >> based on an ancestor cult? That is quite a bold statement, and I have
> > >> not seen many scholars flocking to agree with it.
> > >
> > >Go take a look at some native American Totem Poles. Each time a new
chief
> > >took over a new figure was added to the pole. Ancestor Cult !
The meaning of the totems IS NOT KNOWN!!! , they are many theories,
and concepts!!........ has for ancestor cult!!....... This is so
familiar to
the work of "Emile Durkheim in about 1912 " which basically shows that
religion is the worship of society itself..... About it may be shrouded in
myths and symbolism!........
The problem with is:
note: his work was by in large asscotied with Australian totems, but there
are similar in this context to North American totems.
1) durkheims work was not really his own first hand and also it wasn't
even complete
2) PEOPLE DON'T NORMALLY WORSHIP SOCIETY BUT ACTUALLY
CLAIM TO CARE FOR SOMETHING EVEN MORE!!! ...... ALSO
THIS TENDS TO BE EVEN AGAINST THE DOMINATE SOCIETY!!
~ in the case of the Egyptians, society was also at some point worshiped
in the form of the "pharaoh" BUT ...... only on the bass of there
religion!
that is that there society was incorporated into there religion over time,
anther
example of this was the river Nile was known as orisis!!...... after
time society
and religions was built around this....... and before Egyptian times we see
that
societies was keeped together by incorporating other religions, to unify
to
"races" or different societies into one! and this same method is
countunessly
seen!!!
> > And? From this and a couple of other examples you extrapolate that
> > each and every civilization had an ancestor cult and there were no
> > goddess cults? You could just as easily "prove" that garlic keeps
> > vampires away, since you can find no vampires in any kitchen in which
> > there is garlic.
>
> And on what do you base your argument that early man worshiped spiritual
> gods. On a few conversation that Christian missionaries had with tribes in
> Africa which they interfered with by trying to covert them. Its all made
up.
really the oldest African tribes, were not so polytheistic or henotheistic
as you
seem maybe to make out, in fact they tended to believe in a supreme god,
a singular creator....... want a example? how about the pygmies!!!!......
the interesting thing is that that didn't idols the god either, which is
way very little
icons of there god are found in older times!......... o and if u think it's
localized
you very much wrong, china for example as a tendency of a original
"monotheistic"
character...... if we looked at translations form Dr Ross you will see
why,
and more interestingly you will also see VAST similarities between the older
Chinese religions, with that of the book of genesis, with the tree of
knowledge..
If you don't believe me , then why not check up Dr Ross!
[ deleted ]
>
> Do you know how many people it takes to did an irrigation canal system
over
> 1000 miles long ? Do you know that if there was no organised labour that
the
> canal system would have been impossible to build or maintain let alone
use.
That's why early culture WAS SMALL!!! ...... and normally near WATER.
over time society becomes dominate.......... your just not go that far
back.
> Go and read the Decent of Ishtar story which tells you what happens if you
> build to many irrigation canals which dry the river up completly.
>
> > would "foreigners" have to come and instruct them in what was going on
> > in their own backyards? Let me guess. Are you a decendent of this
> > master race?
>
> Without someone to give the orders about water use and conservation and
when
> to plant the crops large scale agriculture would have been impossible.
> Without someone who had a large enough army to fend of bandits, farming of
> animals would have been futile.
without someone........ or people...... heard of scribes! ........ and you
still haven't addressed how you can dingush from either 1 person or
many!....... and its all to do
with writings...... or handing down information verbally, which irony has
it means
everyone's a farmer, it's almost as if your claiming man was once stupid ,
which is
so far from the truth.
> Go
> > >
> > >> >
> > >> >Hathor is a corruption of Assura, which is also Sara. Its the common
> > >title
> > >> >of a queen.
> > >> >
> > >> Again, this is fascinating, but upon what do you base this assertion?
> > >> Could you perhaps provide a link explaining how these different names
> > >> morphed from the parent name? I'm certain that it doesn't come across
> > >> well in English. Assura/Sara seems plausible. Assura/Hathor seems
> > >> quite a stretch in English. Is it closer in the original alphabet?
> > >
> > >Hathor(u) = Athor(u) = Assura = Ashura
> >
> > It seems quite a jump from Athor to Assura. Lots of letter changes! Do
> > you have documentation for this?
>
> There is only ONE letter change and that is from "SH" to "TH" which is
very
> common in Afro-Asiatic influenced languages.
>
> Vowels were NEVER present in the original script.
The point I was trying to show is that hathor is actauly a Greek corruption
of
a older Egyptian goddess cult, and what I dear friend cant grasp is that
even
the old Greek hellistic's believed in a original goddess in the form of
GIA...
meaning earth!
[ deleted ]
> > That proves nothing. You misstated the "facts" to begin with, and
> > there is no proof that Tutankhamon was a full brother to Akhenaton's
> > daughters. He may not have been Akhenaton's son at all, though he was
> > most certainly related.
Quite right "Hope" its on of the reasons why DNA tests were to be done
on akhenaton and tukankhamon bodies!!!....... our friend seems to think
that letters always speak the truth!! wooow what science!!
> According to Manetho Acenchres was Tutankhamons sister PERIOD.
Before , I stated ".....then again its poor scienftic practice to base
your
concepts on one source of information......" I don't think I need to
comment!
IF this is true it's simply YOUR interpation!
>The bible give DATE for when Joseph live and for
> when the so-called famine occurred and these dates corresponded to the
Reign
> of Horemheb. Herodotus also corroborates the famine in Hormemhebs reign,
and
> gives a precise date for it. Lysmahus also corroborates the famine and so
do
> the Hittite records. Joseph in Greek since Greek is the langue that the
> Bible was originally written in,
your aguement are so lossly related that they can mean anything, and there
is
no link other than your RE-transulations
>is Ios-Sephus which means son of Cepheus.
> Cepheus being Amenhotep IV or kheferu-re. Its no wonder Joseph was called
> Tut-anch-amon because the Biblical story was CONCOCTED FICTION based on
the
> Egyptian annals and spans the reigns of Akenaton through to the final year
> of Set I which is PRECISELY the year of Josephs death. Even the year that
> Tut-anch-amon took the throne corresponds to the year Joseph was abducted
> and taken to Egypt.
"CONCOCTED FICTION" Really??!! wow that's a totally new one, not,
in case you haven't noticed allot of archeological evidence as shown the
bible to be correct, ( in part ) I think that adresses the concocted
fiction!
I also love the way ......... you translate the names very interesting,
not to mention
that you think Cro-Magnon...... to be a work of fiction, very interesting,
I think
you should seriously consider, not typing anymore!
yes but that's not addressed "All you have done is string together a lot of
names and "facts" that you believe, without giving any scholarly or
scientific
evidence to back up your claims."
> > Cassiopia were the same person because they were both vain?? That's
> > brilliant. And what proof do you have that Nefertiti was vain? Do you
>
> Go and take a look at the pictures of her in Akenatos tomb. It is an
> accepted FACT that Nefertiti was vain.
hehehe no comment.......... our friend seems more vain .
> > assume she *must* have been, since so many people today consider her
> > bust beautiful?
> >
> > Where in the world did you study deductive reasoning and the
> > scientific method? According to you, A=B so therefore B=D, E, and F.
>
> No. That is according to you. You couldn't solve a quadratic equation to
> save you life.
Really .. name calling the calling of a person that cant answer the
question or
statement, but in fact responds to it instead....... very effective to the
uneducated!
i hardly doubt the Egyptians would actually state on the tombs or
writings, that
the sea parted and then god kicked our butt!!!........ then again, that's
not
to say it did or didn't happen!
are you a new ager by the way??? ......... as for brain washed and
"IGNORANT" "FOOL"...
Agamemnon CLASSSICS!!
"And as for Cro-Magnon, wasn't that an invention of Sir Arthur Conan Coye in
The Lost World ?"
THE FACTS!! > lots of skeletons , showing cro-magnon man..... seems to
flatly contradict "invention"........ agamemnon seems to be unaware that
cro-magnon
man existed around the later part of the neaderthanl era , and after......
however
some contvescy still remains........ i.e. it seems quite likely that
cro-magnon could
have interbreed with neaderthanls, or even Homo estrus, evidence of
interbreeding
is in the form of a small skeleton of a hybrid child found in Portugal.
"What the hell are you talking about. There were NO old Turkish religions.
The Turks were godless Mongols who come form Asia who adopted Islam.
They have NOTHING to do with the indigenous culture of Anatolia."
FACTS : Catal Huyuk has shown EVIDENCE of a worshipped, goddess
in the form of a pregnet woman about to give birth, satute seating next to
lioness?
( possibly ) ......... its quite simply to check, may going to google
for example
and type in Catal Huyuk ....... after alittle work, you will find I am
right ant your
very IGNORANT!
"Hermes and Thoth evolved independently of each other. Unless you are saying
that there was no Thoth until 1650 BC which is the dated of Hermes reign in
Greece"
FACTS: I said thoth came first !!! can you follow instructions, talk
about
"You couldn't solve a quadratic equation to save you life." < as Agamemnon
wrote, a more important question is rather can agamenmnon follow basic
premises to a logical conclusion....... NOPE!
and to really heat up arguements!!!
THE UBAIDIANS: Mound of Al-Ubaid is in modern Iraq. The remains of the
Ubaidians were there first excavated.
The Ubaidians arrived in southern Mesopotamia near where the Tigris and
Euphrates rivers emptied into the Persian Gulf sometime between 5,500 BC and
5,000 BC.
they belived in A GODDESS At Tell Hamoukar, archaeologists discovered a
protective city wall, and they described the place of their digging as more
than a town -- they described it as a city. And they found what they call
primitive hieroglyphics: markings for record keeping of trade transactions.
PRE - SUMERIAN ......... AND EVIDENCE SOMETHING OUR DEAREST
DOESN'T HAVE!......... SO MONOTHEISM DOES EXISTED BEFORE EGYPTIANS.......
AS DOES A GODDESS CULT!!
Danny niccoli
"And as for Cro-Magnon, wasn't that an invention of Sir Arthur Conan Coye in
The Lost World ?"
HAAHAHAHAAHAHA AND ITS MORE THAN 3 MILLION YRS YOU
UN UP _ TO_ DATE FOOL........ KENYA_MAN!
Agamemnon
>
> Agamemnon <insert-...@hello.to> wrote in message
> news:a0ng85$5bl$1...@helle.btinternet.com...
> >
> > "Doug MacDonald" <Doug_Ma...@email.msn.com> wrote in message
> > news:#0XgBpUkBHA.1644@cpimsnntpa02...
> > > > each and every civilization had an ancestor cult
> > >
> > > If you go back far enough, sooner or later, you get to the end of the
> line
> > > and there are no ancestor cults ... Consequently, the above quote is
> > > clearly a false assertion ...
> > >
> >
> > Don't be an idiot. Mans direct ancestors go back 3 million years. Even
an
> > ape remembers its parents. Or do you still believe in Adam and Eve ?
> >
> HAHAAHAHAH!!!!!!!....... COMING FROM THE GUY WHO SAYS
>
> "And as for Cro-Magnon, wasn't that an invention of Sir Arthur Conan Coye
in
Doyle
> The Lost World ?"
>
> HAAHAHAHAAHAHA AND ITS MORE THAN 3 MILLION YRS YOU
> UN UP _ TO_ DATE FOOL........ KENYA_MAN!
>
CRETIN. Australopithecus mans first upright walking ancestor dates back 3
million years you idiot.
Danny niccoli
Kenya man ......... what was discovered this yr. I think is dated 3.5
million yr. and lived
around the same time as Lucy........ flat faced in nature , you find has
more similar
characteristics that many others, but not nesscerly OUR direct ancestor,
ever way
you information is out of date and flatly incorrect........ and once again
your
living in a cave!
also Kenyanthropus platyops as a new different lineage
try to get the MOST UP TO DATE FACTS and also more that one source of
info ....... i know this would come to light some day!!
oh and futher more........ from :
http://www.nature.com/nature/fow/010322.html
"Over the last 15 years intense and successful fieldwork has doubled the
numbers
of recognised hominin species, and identified two new genera: Aridipithecus
dating
back to 4.4 million years ago, and Orrorin, claimed to be the oldest known
hominin
dating back to 6 million years ago. To this complicated picture is now added
the genus
of Kenyanthropus"
and if you dont belive it i suggest you read . MEAVE G. LEAKEY paper
anther Agamemnon classic!!
Agamemnon
> Delete parts which I don't address.....
>
> [Deleted]
>
> > > >Venus figures = Pornography.
> > >
> > > In your eyes, perhaps. That does not make it so for the entire world.
> > > The human figure is only obscene if you wish to attach unhealthy and
> > > harmful sexual or sadomasochistic meaning to it. Humans can make
> > > *anything* obscene, no matter how innocent.
> >
> > When did I say anything about it being obscene.
>
> ..... you didn't , interesting those..... your not addressing the issue
as
> such,
> what argument(S) ? do you have spporting that Venus figures, are in
> fact ONLY pornography, rather than goddess cults? ( other than the
nudity )
> ..... There is far more evidence and current thinking ( RATIONAL )
> indicating that its not pornography........ The real point is that,
This
> Goddess cult puts a coffers to your
What evidence do you have that that figures were worshiped. Do you think
people as SO STUPID as to carve themselves a statue out of bone and then
worship it.
They also carved images of Woolly Mammoths. Were these worshiped as giods as
well ?
Dont be stupid. These images were ART and NOTHING more than mementos of
hunting trips and sexual conquests.
> ( I assuming that this is your web site,
> http://www.argyros.argyrou.btinternet.co.uk/myths/bible/History.htm
> has you keep on referring it to us, then again its poor
> scientific practice to base your concepts on one source of information
> o there is such a big reason why I note this here ........ we shall see
> later why :) )
>
> Hellenistic era, and polytheistic era...... simply put the oldest
> religions have a tendency to believe in a creation and pro_creation,
> hence a more "monotheistic" era. In A goddess..... that's one reasoning
> .......
CRAP. There was NO such thing as "monotheism" until it was invented by
BIGOTS in the Christian era. The ancients regarded ALL gods as equal and
thus all races as equal. Everyone was allowed to worship their own ancestral
gods NOT because they were gods but because they were a link to the peoples
past. That's why the Greeks worshiped Greek Gods and NOT Persian ones.
>
> anther is that they are simply paying respects to nature, and anther ,
is
> its
BULLISHIT. If people respected nature they would not step on blades of
grass. Nature worship is all FICTION that was dreamt up in the 19th century
when the Druid cult was re-invented.
>
>
> > > >> All? Really? There was not a single ancient civilization that was
not
> > > >> based on an ancestor cult? That is quite a bold statement, and I
have
> > > >> not seen many scholars flocking to agree with it.
> > > >
> > > >Go take a look at some native American Totem Poles. Each time a new
> chief
> > > >took over a new figure was added to the pole. Ancestor Cult !
>
> The meaning of the totems IS NOT KNOWN!!! , they are many theories,
It is PERFECTLY known. A new king to office and a new figure was added. The
American Indian religion was INVENTED by the Christian missionaries out of
their own Christian beliefs and prejudices.
> ~ in the case of the Egyptians, society was also at some point worshiped
> in the form of the "pharaoh" BUT ...... only on the bass of there
> religion!
The Jews which turned the worship of Pharaoh into what became Monotheism by
replacing his name in the bible with YHWH, since Syria-Palestine has always
been an Egyptian vassal.
>
> > > And? From this and a couple of other examples you extrapolate that
> > > each and every civilization had an ancestor cult and there were no
> > > goddess cults? You could just as easily "prove" that garlic keeps
> > > vampires away, since you can find no vampires in any kitchen in which
> > > there is garlic.
> >
> > And on what do you base your argument that early man worshiped spiritual
> > gods. On a few conversation that Christian missionaries had with tribes
in
> > Africa which they interfered with by trying to covert them. Its all made
> up.
>
> really the oldest African tribes, were not so polytheistic or
henotheistic
> as you
> seem maybe to make out, in fact they tended to believe in a supreme god,
POPPYCOCK.
> a singular creator....... want a example? how about the
pygmies!!!!......
HA HA HA.... Don't make me laugh. The Pygmies were in contact with the
Greeks and Phoenicians at the time of Herodotus. They are completely
unsuitable to cite in any case studies of African religions. In fact ALL
African populations are completely unsuitable for any kind case sutude of
primitive religions because the spent thousands of years in contact with the
civilisations of the Egyptians, Greeks, Romans and Arabs before they made
contact with western Europeans all of whom imposed their own religious ideas
on them.
> the interesting thing is that that didn't idols the god either, which is
> way very little
Because they NEVER had a god. If these people had gods that were any
different from those of the Egyptians then Herodotus would have mentioned
them. This is also another reason why Judaism NEVER existed until it was
concocted in 65BC due to the Roman conquest of Palestine. If there was ever
a monotheistic religion in Syria-Palestine back in 440 BC Herodotus would
have mentioned it. Instead Herodotus identified the inhabitants as
Phoenicians and Syrians because the obviously worship the same gods as the
Phoenicians and Syrians.
> icons of there god are found in older times!......... o and if u think
it's
> localized
>
> > Go and read the Decent of Ishtar story which tells you what happens if
you
> > build to many irrigation canals which dry the river up completly.
> >
> > > would "foreigners" have to come and instruct them in what was going on
> > > in their own backyards? Let me guess. Are you a decendent of this
> > > master race?
> >
> > Without someone to give the orders about water use and conservation and
> when
> > to plant the crops large scale agriculture would have been impossible.
> > Without someone who had a large enough army to fend of bandits, farming
of
> > animals would have been futile.
>
> without someone........ or people...... heard of scribes! ........ and
you
> still haven't addressed how you can dingush from either 1 person or
> many!....... and its all to do
> with writings...... or handing down information verbally, which irony has
> it means
> everyone's a farmer, it's almost as if your claiming man was once stupid
,
> which is
> so far from the truth.
What the hell are you rambling on about. Sustained agriculture and farming
would have been impossible without someone's army to guard the water supply
and the live stock from pollutions, overuse and bandits. What the hell have
scribes got to do with it. Only soldiers can defend the rives and the small
holds and only kings can coordinate the economy.
> > > >Hathor(u) = Athor(u) = Assura = Ashura
> > >
> > > It seems quite a jump from Athor to Assura. Lots of letter changes! Do
> > > you have documentation for this?
> >
> > There is only ONE letter change and that is from "SH" to "TH" which is
> very
> > common in Afro-Asiatic influenced languages.
> >
> > Vowels were NEVER present in the original script.
>
> The point I was trying to show is that hathor is actauly a Greek
corruption
> of
> a older Egyptian goddess cult, and what I dear friend cant grasp is that
> even
> the old Greek hellistic's believed in a original goddess in the form of
> GIA...
> meaning earth!
They also believed in Tartarus who was born at the same time. I have already
shown that Tartarus is the primary root of the word Tera, which would the
earth a male personification. Eros was also born at the same time as was
Erebus and Nyx.
It is quite obvious that Tartarus, Eros, Erebus, Eris, and Ares are all
corruption of the sam root, which indicated that this was the title of a
King.
Gia and Nyx are both corruptions of Wanax.
Gia, is the same name as Io or Ioun, and Luna and is clear the title of a
Queen.
Pontus the son of Gia, is nothing more corruption of Pandion, again the
common name of a King and can be shortened to Deus or Theos.
Ouranus, Chaos, and Chronos are all corruptions of Caranos, yet again the
common name of a King, and meaning Head.
Coeus, and Crius are both the same name as Alkaios or Brazen.
Hyperion and Helios are both the same name as Illyus
Iapetus, is the same name as Jupiter, and Japhet
and Oceanus probably means the Canaanite hence the association with water.
Thus 2 of the Titians, Oceanus and Iapetus originated from Canaan. Hyperion
and Helios came from Asia-Minor or Illyria. Ouranus, Chaos, and Chronos were
indigenous to Greece. Gia and Nyx were indigenous to Greece. Pontus and Zeus
were indigenous to Greece. And as for Tartarus, Eros, Erebus, Eris, and Ares
their names probably originated when the Greeks, Illyrians and Hittites
considered themselves to be Aryans.
Helios is very likely a later evolutionary for of Eros and Atlas as I have
already show in a corruption of the middle part of Tartarus.
>
> [ deleted ]
>
>
>
> > > That proves nothing. You misstated the "facts" to begin with, and
> > > there is no proof that Tutankhamon was a full brother to Akhenaton's
> > > daughters. He may not have been Akhenaton's son at all, though he was
> > > most certainly related.
>
> Quite right "Hope" its on of the reasons why DNA tests were to be done
> on akhenaton and tukankhamon bodies!!!....... our friend seems to think
> that letters always speak the truth!! wooow what science!!
Tutankhamon was only 9 years old when he took the throne. There is NO WAY he
could be the son of Tutmoses IV or Amenhotep III since both were DEAD when
Akhenaton took the throne and reigned 16 years.
>
> > According to Manetho Acenchres was Tutankhamons sister PERIOD.
>
> Before , I stated ".....then again its poor scienftic practice to base
> your
> concepts on one source of information......" I don't think I need to
> comment!
FOOL. Dead mean don't father childeren. Acenchres was Tutankhamons sister
PERIOD. If Manetho wrote it down like then then so did the Greek
mythographers.
>
> >is Ios-Sephus which means son of Cepheus.
> > Cepheus being Amenhotep IV or kheferu-re. Its no wonder Joseph was
called
> > Tut-anch-amon because the Biblical story was CONCOCTED FICTION based on
> the
> > Egyptian annals and spans the reigns of Akenaton through to the final
year
> > of Set I which is PRECISELY the year of Josephs death. Even the year
that
> > Tut-anch-amon took the throne corresponds to the year Joseph was
abducted
> > and taken to Egypt.
>
>
> "CONCOCTED FICTION" Really??!! wow that's a totally new one, not,
> in case you haven't noticed allot of archeological evidence as shown the
> bible to be correct, ( in part ) I think that adresses the concocted
> fiction!
UTTER BULLSHIT. There is NOT ONE SHRED of archaeological evident to show the
existence of any form of "Jewish" religion that is in any way related to the
one of today prior to 65 BC. NOT ONE SHRED. No prayer boxes with "Hebrew"
prayers on door posts or arm bands. No 7 branched candles sticks, NO
Temples, no priestly robe with blue fringes and even the word Synagogue is
GREEK.
>
> I also love the way ......... you translate the names very interesting,
> not to mention
> that you think Cro-Magnon...... to be a work of fiction, very
interesting,
> I think
> you should seriously consider, not typing anymore!
The notion of the Cro-Magnon society that you base your incredulous beliefs
on was concocted by Conon Doyle. All that is know about Cro-Magnon is bunch
of skeletons and nothing more.
> >
> > IGNORANT BRAINWASHED FOOL...
> >
> > You just want to blindly believe the myth of Judo-Christianity and
godhood
> > and are not prepared to even contemplate it being a fictitious ancestor
> myth
> > no differ from those of the Greek. The Greeks have archaeological
evidence
> > to back their myths up with the discoveries of Mycenae and Jason's
palace
> > but the Bible has NOTHING to back up its claims of a Joseph and Abraham
> > unless they were IMPOSTS as ALL the ancient writers from Mantho to
> Lysmachus
> > always claimed.
>
> i hardly doubt the Egyptians would actually state on the tombs or
> writings, that
> the sea parted and then god kicked our butt!!!........ then again,
that's
> not
> to say it did or didn't happen!
Considering that this fictitious even occurred during the time the Trojan
War occurred how come the Greek don't mention it either. I mean Meneleus was
searching for Helen in Egypt and he dint notice that the Red Sea had parted.
The ONLY historical even that could account for a parting of any sea did NOT
occur in Egypt but in the Aegean when Thera erupted and sent a mage Tsunami
across the entire Greek world. This Tsunami is recorded in the
archaeological record and also by the Egyptians. Why isn't the parting of
the Rad Sea ?
>
> are you a new ager by the way??? ......... as for brain washed and
> "IGNORANT" "FOOL"...
>
> Agamemnon CLASSSICS!!
>
> "And as for Cro-Magnon, wasn't that an invention of Sir Arthur Conan Coye
in
> The Lost World ?"
>
> THE FACTS!! > lots of skeletons , showing cro-magnon man..... seems to
> flatly contradict "invention"........ agamemnon seems to be unaware that
> cro-magnon
Lots of skeletons and NOTHING about their society which was invented by
Conan Doyle.
> man existed around the later part of the neaderthanl era , and
after......
> however
> some contvescy still remains........ i.e. it seems quite likely that
> cro-magnon could
> have interbreed with neaderthanls, or even Homo estrus, evidence of
> interbreeding
> is in the form of a small skeleton of a hybrid child found in Portugal.
>
>
> "What the hell are you talking about. There were NO old Turkish religions.
> The Turks were godless Mongols who come form Asia who adopted Islam.
> They have NOTHING to do with the indigenous culture of Anatolia."
>
> FACTS : Catal Huyuk has shown EVIDENCE of a worshipped, goddess
> in the form of a pregnet woman about to give birth, satute seating next
to
> lioness?
This is NOT religion. This is ART.
BULLSHIT. This goddess cult was INVENTED by the archaeologists who excavate
the site.
> protective city wall, and they described the place of their digging as
more
> than a town -- they described it as a city. And they found what they call
> primitive hieroglyphics: markings for record keeping of trade
transactions.
Oh and this means there was a goddess cult ? LOL....
>
> PRE - SUMERIAN ......... AND EVIDENCE SOMETHING OUR DEAREST
> DOESN'T HAVE!......... SO MONOTHEISM DOES EXISTED BEFORE
EGYPTIANS.......
> AS DOES A GODDESS CULT!!
>
LOL... LOL... LOL...
Ken Down
<lar...@teleport.com> wrote:
> I have never seen a flying saucer nut converted by either logic or facts.
Regrettably, I think you are right. Still, that's no reason not to bring
both to bear whenever the subject comes up.
Hope
<insert-...@hello.to> wrote:
>
>"Hope" <cal...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
>news:idqs2uk0ubfrilgbb...@4ax.com...
>>
>> >
>> >Venus figures = Pornography.
>>
>> In your eyes, perhaps. That does not make it so for the entire world.
>> The human figure is only obscene if you wish to attach unhealthy and
>> harmful sexual or sadomasochistic meaning to it. Humans can make
>> *anything* obscene, no matter how innocent.
>
>When did I say anything about it being obscene.
Hm...let's define terms, then. How do you define "pornography?"
>
>
>And on what do you base your argument that early man worshiped spiritual
>gods. On a few conversation that Christian missionaries had with tribes in
>Africa which they interfered with by trying to covert them. Its all made up.
>
>
>Do you know how many people it takes to did an irrigation canal system over
>1000 miles long ? Do you know that if there was no organised labour that the
>canal system would have been impossible to build or maintain let alone use.
>
>Go and read the Decent of Ishtar story which tells you what happens if you
>build to many irrigation canals which dry the river up completly.
>
>> would "foreigners" have to come and instruct them in what was going on
>> in their own backyards? Let me guess. Are you a decendent of this
>> master race?
>
>Without someone to give the orders about water use and conservation and when
>to plant the crops large scale agriculture would have been impossible.
>Without someone who had a large enough army to fend of bandits, farming of
>animals would have been futile.
Which addresses the question of why the "bosses" would have had to be
foreigners not at all. What a surprise.
>
>Go
>> >
>> >> >
>> >> >Hathor is a corruption of Assura, which is also Sara. Its the common
>> >title
>> >> >of a queen.
>> >> >
>> >> Again, this is fascinating, but upon what do you base this assertion?
>> >> Could you perhaps provide a link explaining how these different names
>> >> morphed from the parent name? I'm certain that it doesn't come across
>> >> well in English. Assura/Sara seems plausible. Assura/Hathor seems
>> >> quite a stretch in English. Is it closer in the original alphabet?
>> >
>> >Hathor(u) = Athor(u) = Assura = Ashura
>>
>> It seems quite a jump from Athor to Assura. Lots of letter changes! Do
>> you have documentation for this?
>
>There is only ONE letter change and that is from "SH" to "TH" which is very
>common in Afro-Asiatic influenced languages.
Except you have an "ss" rather than a "th" in Assura.
>
>Vowels were NEVER present in the original script.
Which is why *you* cannot be certain the "or" became "ura."
>
>> I was speaking of your evidence that Set was a Mittani Hittite king.
>
> * Kirta
> * Shuttarna I......................................fl. c. < 1550
> * Parattarna
> * Parsatatar.........................................fl. c. 1500
> * Sausatatar.........................................fl. c. 1480
> * Artatama...........................................fl. c. 1450
> * Shuttarna II
> * Artashshumara....................................fl. c. < 1390
> * Tushratta..........................................fl. c. 1360
> * Hittite vassals
> * Kurtiwaza...................................fl. c. < 1350
> * Shuttarna III.................................fl. c. 1340
> * Shattuara I.................................fl. c. < 1300
> * Wasashatta....................................fl. c. 1300
> * Shattuara II..................................fl. c. 1270
> * To Assyria........................................from c. 1270
>
>> I've read no evidence that the two identifiable cultures were ever
>> ruled by one king, let alone by Set. If you want to discuss the roots
>
>Mittani was an Egyptian Vassal from the time the Hyksos were expelled.
How does this prove that the Hittites and Mittanians were ruled by one
king? And I fail to see Set's name in your list...unless you want to
pick and name and say, "This, of course, is the same person as Set."
>
>> of the Indo-European language or other language groups, that's a
>> different topic.
>
>
>According to Manetho Acenchres was Tutankhamons sister PERIOD.
I will buy that if:
1. You can show me proof that Acenchres is Anksen
2. You can prove that everything Manetho said regarding things that
happened long before his life was accurate and fault-free.
3. You can prove that even if they were brother and sister, that means
the rest of your theory has to be correct.
>
>The Greek myth states that Andromeda was Cepheus daughter and Acenchres was
>the daughter of kheferu-re i.e. Cepheus. Both their mothers were vain. Both
>were to be given away as sacrificed. And both had their future husbands
>murdered. How do you know that Akhenaton didnt give his daughter away to
>Perseus.
Typical. "Can you prove that flying saucers *don't* exist?" Tsk, tsk.
Which daughter are we speaking of now? If we're still discussing the
widow of Tutankamon, it would have been rather difficult for Akhenaton
to give her away, unless contrary to all evidence and custom he was
still alive and had any say in the matter, even though he was
obviously no longer Pharoah. Your theory has more twists than a
pretzle.
>
>> >
>> >> scholars assume this "subject" was Horemheb, (or less likely Ay,) both
>> >> of whom did take the throne.
>> >
>> >Very likely since Manetho calls her Acenchres and mekas her the sister of
>> >Rathotis (Tutankhamun). Later on in Josephus dissembled version of
>Manetho
>> >accun she is called Acencheres and is given two concurrent reigns 12y5m
>and
>> >12y3m which add up to virtually the same length of time that Horemheb
>> >reigned. The fact that Horemheb was a commoner explains why Acenchres is
>> >named and not him.
>> >
>> >Further more Apollodorus and Herodotus have Herakles murder Horemheb and
>his
>> >son.
>>
>> What are you babbling about? There is no historical evidence Horemheb
>> had a son.
>
>Because he was murdered by Herakles !
Where is your proof?? Why is there no evidence of a son in Horemheb's
tomb or no word of him in any of the contemporary records? Why, with
so much evidence of the other individuals involved, is there not a
single written word about a son, nor a single ushabti, etc.
Your circular reasoning is of no avail. It is exactly the same
argument offered by Christian fundamentalists who say, "Every word in
the Bible is true because the Bible says that every word in it is
true, and everything written in the Bible is true, so that proves it."
>
>POPPYCOCK. The Bible state that Josephs Egyptian name was Psom-thom-fanich
>which is Tut-anch-amon.
You are unbelievable! Quote for me the chapter and verse that says,
"Joseph's Egyptian name was Psom-thom-fanich, which is Tut-anch-amon."
> Its pretty clear when Joseph live and that he was a
>contemporary of Horemheb.
Yeah, clear as mud.
> The bible give DATE for when Joseph live and for
>when the so-called famine occurred and these dates corresponded to the Reign
>of Horemheb.
Well, then, you had better hurry and publish this news so that
everyone else in the world who has been studying the matter and
debating the dates can find something else to do with their time.
Again, what chaper and verse would that be?
> Herodotus also corroborates the famine in Hormemhebs reign, and
>gives a precise date for it. Lysmahus also corroborates the famine and so do
>the Hittite records.
Um...there was more than one famine. It would be a miracle indeed if
there were only one famine in all the thousands of years of recorded
Egyptian history. "A" famine does not prove it to be "the" famine of
the Joseph story.
>Joseph in Greek since Greek is the langue that the
>Bible was originally written in,
not the only one..
> is Ios-Sephus which means son of Cepheus.
>Cepheus being Amenhotep IV or kheferu-re.
Okay, how many different names are you going to pin on these people?
Your whole "theory" rests in your ability to plug various names into
whatever slot you choose in order to "prove" that your intepretation
is correct.
> Its no wonder Joseph was called
>Tut-anch-amon
So now Tutankhamon was Joseph?? *throwing up my hands*
> because the Biblical story was CONCOCTED FICTION based on the
>Egyptian annals
Oh, this is rich! First you "prove" your arguments by stating that
it's all there in the Bible, and then you conclude the whole Biblical
story is fiction. *LMAO* Talk about throwing out the baby with the
bath water! You just knocked your own house of cards down.
> and spans the reigns of Akenaton through to the final year
>of Set I which is PRECISELY the year of Josephs death. Even the year that
>Tut-anch-amon took the throne corresponds to the year Joseph was abducted
>and taken to Egypt.
>
>>
>> >http://www.argyros.argyrou.btinternet.co.uk/myths/bible/History.htm
>> >
>> >This is backed up be Herodotus who states:
>> >
>> >"Herodotus [2.13.1] One fact which I learnt of the priests is to me a
>strong
>> >evidence of the origin of the country. They said that when Moeris was
>king,
>> >the Nile overflowed all Egypt below Memphis, as soon as it rose so little
>as
>> >eight cubits. Now Moeris had not been dead 900 years at the time when I
>> >heard this of the priests; yet at the present day, unless the river rise
>> >sixteen, or, at the very least, fifteen cubits, it does not overflow the
>> >lands." (Herodotus wrote in ~440 BC)
>>
>> What does this have to do with anything we were discussing? Razzle
>> dazzle.
>
>Its substantiates my argument you IGNORAMUS. You are the one who asked me
>for evidence but you don't want to even look at it.
>
I asked for evidence pertaining to the points under discussion. You
provided a tale about how high the Nile has to rise in order to
overflow the land. How is that relevant? Does it prove that foreigners
needed to come in and take over and regulate crops and planting? Does
it prove in which reign Joseph served? Does it prove your theory of
interchangeable names? Does it prove that no culture ever worshiped
goddesses? What does it have to do with anything?
And by the way, being called an IGNORAMUS by you is quite a
compliment. I would begin to worry if *you* complimented my
intelligence.
>> >
>> >Busiris, Moeris, Bocehoris (according to Lysimachus) and Horemheb
>1321-1293
>> >were all the same person.
>>
>> Why? What is the evidence that these four are one and the same?
>
>I have given you the evidence.
No, you have not. You have given me your interpretation of things.
Unless we suspend reason and allow indiscriminate switching of names,
it all falls apart.
>The Biblical famine of Joseph took place
>during the reign of Bocehoris. The dates given in the bible corroborate that
>this famine took place in the reign of Horemheb.
Again, show me the chapter and verse in this book of CONCOTED FICTION
that says this.
>Herodotus gives the precise
>date for the reign of Moeris which corresponds to that of Hormeheb during
>which he state the Nile flooded the entire land unexpectedly which would
>have destroyed the entire harvest.
And even if you could prove Moeris is Horemheb, and even if the Delta
did flood unexpectedly, and even if the entire Egyptian crop was in
the Delta (which it wasn't) that still does not prove *this* was the
start of the seven-year famine in the story of Joseph.
>And finally the Herakels story is
>referring to Alcius the son of Perseus who can be firmly dated to between
>1336 and 1286 BC dutring which Horemheb also reigned.
Yes, people did live contemporaniously. What a shock. Sons did die,
and often. So did kings.
>
>Go and take a look at the pictures of her in Akenatos tomb. It is an
>accepted FACT that Nefertiti was vain.
What?? You are able to deduce character traits such as vanity from
her pictures in his tomb? She was a queen, at a time when Pharoah was
trying to re-establish the godhead of the office. She most likely had
a deal of pride and may well have been vain. But even if you could
state this as fact from her picture, it does not prove she was the
character in the other story.
>
>> Besides the fact that makes no sense, no one and nothing was sent to
>> collect the princess in the Egyptian incident. The Hittite prince was
>
>Nothing ARRIVED. There is NO evidence that nothing was sent. Nothing arrived
>because Perseus destroyed the Trireme or dragon ship.
*sigh*
>
>IGNORANT BRAINWASHED FOOL...
>
>You just want to blindly believe the myth of Judo-Christianity and godhood
>and are not prepared to even contemplate it being a fictitious ancestor myth
>no differ from those of the Greek
Your name-calling means less than nothing to me. But don't make
youself such a public fool. You know nothing of my religious beliefs
or lack of. You are the one using the Bible on one hand to "prove"
your assertions while calling it a myth on the other. Decide which
side of the fence you want to land on before you presume to judge the
religious beliefs of others. I came here to discuss ancient Egypt,
not personal religious convictions or lack of. You pulled that out of
*your* hat, not mine.
>The Greeks have archaeological evidence
>to back their myths up with the discoveries of Mycenae and Jason's palace
This proves the existance of those places and the historical existence
of some characters. It certainly does not prove the literal truth of
all Greek myths.
>but the Bible has NOTHING to back up its claims of a Joseph and Abraham
>unless they were IMPOSTS as ALL the ancient writers from Mantho to Lysmachus
>always claimed.
I have never argued for the existence of Joseph or Abraham. *You* were
the one throwing their names around. I was addressing the ridiculous
nature of your "facts" about interchangeable characters and your
penchant for twisting and mixing and ignoring archaelogical evidence
to fit your pet theories. I will now add your skill with red herrings
to the list.
>
>
>
Hope
>
>What evidence do you have that that figures were worshiped. Do you think
>people as SO STUPID as to carve themselves a statue out of bone and then
>worship it.
The idea of images of gods and goddesses was not to worship the image
itself, but the *spirit* represented by the object. It was an aid in
the focus of thought.
>
>They also carved images of Woolly Mammoths. Were these worshiped as giods as
>well ?
Maybe, in a sense. It could well have been an attempt to capture or
appeal to the spirit of the mammoth, whose existence was extremely
important to those folks. That would be a logical guess as to why
images of food animals abounded, while there was almost no
representation of "artistic" elements such as flowers, trees, birds,
etc. But it is all conjecture.
>
>Dont be stupid. These images were ART and NOTHING more than mementos of
>hunting trips and sexual conquests.
How nice for you that you can be so certain that your belief is the
one correct one.
>
>
>> .......
>
>CRAP. There was NO such thing as "monotheism" until it was invented by
>BIGOTS in the Christian era. The ancients regarded ALL gods as equal and
>thus all races as equal.
Then why did the Egyptians refer repeatedly to the "vile Asiatics" and
"wretched Kush"? Do you really think they did not think themselves
superior to other races?
>Everyone was allowed to worship their own ancestral
>gods NOT because they were gods but because they were a link to the peoples
>past. That's why the Greeks worshiped Greek Gods and NOT Persian ones.
Oh please. That's like saying "That's why we salute the American flag
and not the Chinese one." Why would people make a deliberate trek to
go looking for foreign gods to worship? It goes against human nature.
And if they were all ancestral, why did the people invest them with
all sorts of "godlike" powers? Why not just venerate them for their
human characteristics?
>
>>
>> anther is that they are simply paying respects to nature, and anther ,
>is
>> its
>
>BULLISHIT. If people respected nature they would not step on blades of
>grass. Nature worship is all FICTION that was dreamt up in the 19th century
>when the Druid cult was re-invented.
Let's see. Doyle invented Cro-magnons. Druids were invented (or re?)
in the 19th century. Monotheism was invented by Christians. Gee, in
your universe, not much happened before the modern age!
>
<snip>
blah, blah,blah
<snip>
>
>Tutankhamon was only 9 years old when he took the throne. There is NO WAY he
>could be the son of Tutmoses IV or Amenhotep III since both were DEAD when
>Akhenaton took the throne and reigned 16 years.
This might be true...*if* you can prove there was no co-regency. So
far Egyptologists have been unable to reach a consensus about that,
and even the co-regency camp can't find enough evidence to agree on a
length. So for you to claim to have the "facts" of the matter is
laughable.
There is even a theory that Akhenaton married his own mother Tiye, and
that Tut was the result of this union...from which sprang the Oedipus
tale. How about *them* apples? *LOL*
Hope
Absolutely correct. Thanks.
>
>Having said that, I think inventing Playboy is the best
>answer.
Well, that would definitely fit what we know of human nature. *G*
Poy
the context of being Similar to the Old Testament and the New Testament, it
is Osiris that has the
most similarities to God, in the writings of the Old Testament and the New.
Set as Satan/Lucifer, Horus as Jesus. Isis as Mary in a lesser extent in
similarities of the
text we are talking about. If it is true the Israelites did travel to
Egypt and live there for a period of time, I'm sure they would of heard some
of the Egyptian Mythology,
and therefore some of their writings would have been influenced by it. Here
are all the similarities that I see, There is more than that, but I'm not
going through all that
text to find them all, I've noticed the Bible repeats itself with slightly
changes in text, that's where you might find more Egyptian myth similarities
I didn't organize the text in chronical Order.
_______________________________________________________
On that day, the Day of Awakening, all
the tombs shall open and the just dead shall live again as we do, and all
sorrow shall pass away forever.
Daniel Chapter 12 Everyone whose name is written in God's book will be
saved. Many people who have already died will live again. Some of them will
wake up to have life forever.
_____________________________________________________________
Yet there was trouble. Proud Set, noble Set, the brother of Osiris, he who
defended the Sun Boat from Apep the Destroyer, was unsettled in his heart.
He coveted the throne of Osiris. He coveted Isis. He coveted the power over
the living world and he desired to take it from his brother. In his dark
mind he conceived of a plot to kill Osiris and take all from him
Isaiah XIV
12 How art thou fallen from heaven, O Lucifer, son of the morning! how art
thou cut down to the ground, which didst weaken the nations!
13 For thou hast said in thine heart, I will ascend into heaven, I will
exalt my throne above the stars of God: I will sit also upon the mount of
the congregation, in the sides of the north:
14 I will ascend above the heights of the clouds; I will be like the most
High.
15 Yet thou shalt be brought down to hell, to the sides of the pit.
____________________________________________________________
Yet nothing that has died, not even a god, may dwell in the land of the
living. Osiris went to Duat, the abode of the dead. Anubis yielded the
throne to him and he became the lord of the dead. There he stands in
judgment over the souls of the dead. He commends the just to the Blessed
Land, but the wicked he condemns to be devoured by Ammit.
Osiris will be able to return to this world. On that day, the Day of
Awakening,
all the tombs shall open and the just dead shall live again as we do, and
all
sorrow shall pass away forever.
REVELATION
Chapter 21
And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first
earth were passed away; and there was no more sea.
And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of
heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband.
And I heard a great voice out of heaven saying, Behold, the tabernacle of
God [is] with men, and he will dwell with them, and they shall be his
people, and God himself shall be with them, [and be] their God.
And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no
more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more
pain: for the former things
are passed away.
_____________________________________________________________
"""Immaculant Conception"""
The spirit of dead Osiris entered her and she did
conceive and bear a son whose destiny it would be to avenge his father. She
called the child Horus, and hid him on an island far away from the gaze of
his uncle Set.
MATTHEW
Chapter 1
20 But while he thought on these things, behold, the angel of the LORD
appeared unto him in a dream, saying, Joseph, thou son of David, fear not to
take unto thee Mary thy wife: for that which is conceived in her is of the
Holy Ghost.
21 And she shall bring forth a son, and thou shalt call his name JESUS: for
he shall save his people from their sins.
22 Now all this was done, that it might be fulfilled which was spoken of the
Lord by the prophet, saying,
23 Behold, a virgin shall be with child, and shall bring forth a son, and
they shall call his name Emmanuel, which being interpreted is, God with us.
24 Then Joseph being raised from sleep did as the angel of the Lord had
bidden him, and took unto him his wife:
25 And knew her not till she had brought forth her firstborn son: and he
called his name JESUS.
_____________________________________________________________
Osiris entered her and she did
conceive and bear a son whose destiny it would be to avenge his father. She
called the child Horus, and hid him on an island far away from the gaze of
his uncle Set.
Yet on his island, Horus, the son of Osiris and Isis, grew to manhood
and strength. Set sent many serpents and demons to kill Horus, but he
defeated them. When he was ready, his mother Isis gave him great magic to
use against Set, and Thoth gave him a magic knife.
Revelation Chapter 12
1 And there appeared a great wonder in heaven; a woman clothed with the sun,
and the moon under her feet, and upon her head a crown of twelve stars:
2 And she being with child cried, travailing in birth, and pained to be
delivered.
3 And there appeared another wonder in heaven; and behold a great red
dragon, having seven heads and ten horns, and seven crowns upon his heads.
4 And his tail drew the third part of the stars of heaven, and did cast them
to the earth: and the dragon stood before the woman which was ready to be
delivered, for to
devour her child as soon as it was born.
5 And she brought forth a man child, who was to rule all nations with a rod
of iron: and her child was caught up unto God, and to his throne.
6 And the woman fled into the wilderness, where she hath a place prepared of
God, that they should feed her there a thousand two hundred and threescore
days.
7 And there was war in heaven: Michael and his angels fought against the
dragon; and the dragon fought and his angels,
8 And prevailed not; neither was their place found any more in heaven.
9 And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and
Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and
his angels were
cast out with him.
10 And I heard a loud voice saying in heaven, Now is come salvation, and
strength, and the kingdom of our God, and the power of his Christ: for the
accuser of our brethren
is cast down, which accused them before our God day and night.
Alan McIntire
> Slight change of direction here... I'm really talking about things that I
> don't know anything much about, but I can't help but noticing a certain
> similarity between the Egyptian hieroglyphic alphabet and the Hebrew
> alphabet - letters such as aleph, yod, shin, appear in both and have not
> dissimilar written forms - does anyone know whether there is any recognised
> link between the two? Could the Hebrew alphabet be descended from the
> Egyptian?
>
Yes, all our western alphabets originated from the Phoenicians, and
from them, through the Egyptians. This alphabet invention has
occurred only once in human history. Thank god we don't have to learn
thousands of figures to read, as do the Chinese.
Danny niccoli
In terms of the early venus figures....... woolly mammoths comes later on!!
also ....... if you were to look at pre surmerian cultures , you find that
( aprox
6000BC ) not only were figures made, but the area's in which they were
found
show greater importance...... IE the positioning of buildings seemed to be
more central
as does the place of "major" site of worship..... i.e. like a church or
temple being
in the center...... however I must stress that goddess figures were also
found
in "homes".
And dear agamemnon, WHAT evidence do you have that its simply a form of
art???? .......... incase you haven't noticed all forms of art convey
messages...
the only way of truly finding out what the message is , is to ask
them!!.....
since we cant do this we depend on positioning and were these objects are
found.
either way its doesn't change things........ the facts and evidence cant be
disputed
why was goddess figure's given more care and attention then any others???
> They also carved images of Woolly Mammoths. Were these worshiped as giods
as
> well ?
>
> Dont be stupid. These images were ART and NOTHING more than mementos of
> hunting trips and sexual conquests.
if this was so then why do ancient cave paintings show what could possibly
be
a soul leaving a hunter??? ( although cave paintings can be perceived in
many ways)
agamemnon wants to assert that this fact to be ruled out when there is no
cause to
....... typical!
>
> > ( I assuming that this is your web site,
> > http://www.argyros.argyrou.btinternet.co.uk/myths/bible/History.htm
> > has you keep on referring it to us, then again its poor
> > scientific practice to base your concepts on one source of information
> > o there is such a big reason why I note this here ........ we shall
see
> > later why :) )
> >
> > Hellenistic era, and polytheistic era...... simply put the oldest
> > religions have a tendency to believe in a creation and pro_creation,
> > hence a more "monotheistic" era. In A goddess..... that's one reasoning
> > .......
>
> CRAP. There was NO such thing as "monotheism" until it was invented by
> BIGOTS in the Christian era.
I will take mono in its lose term, and show not only are you seriously
incomplete
but also plain wrong!!
SOME pre egyptian era "monotheists":
UBAIDIANS: between 5,500 BC and 5,000 BC.
at one time although at first polytheistic Babylonians were ........ they
worshiped
above all others mudork!!
Anatolia, Catal Huyuk : goddess and shows a religious asspect to it.
O and what about even Egyptian creation stories to ....... in the
beginning there
was KHEPERA ~ THE HE/SHE BEING!!!! ....... ALL OTHER GODS
OF THEM EITHER ARE SEPARATIONS OF THIS DEITY OR!!! CREATED!
I have even provided names of the culture and were they are from anyone
can do a search for them....... but you prefer simply to regard them as
"fake" simply becomes you disagree with it .......ok then !!...... with
that
in mind, Egyptians, were actually worshipping fallen angels ........
i.e.
hellel in the book of Enoch ......... why is that scientifically stupid
coz
i don't have a shred of evidence for all I know it could really be a work
of fiction, then again maybe not!!
( until i have evidence either way scientficaly i have no rigth to
coment)
>The ancients regarded ALL gods as equal and
> thus all races as equal.
I haven't seen many claims or errors but you have really changed all of
that.....
the Romans for example , regard ........ "Italians/ romans" as being
automatically higher citizens that other races!!!!...... ( in the most
part )
and as for ALL gods treated equal .......( this is a vague statement )
I hardly think that in Babylonian times for example murdork was
treated with the sameequality as ANU for example....... OR if u
asked an Egyptian whom of the gods was more important Horus or set
....... you find that horus tends to spring to mind but if i was to ask
........
in terms of the second dynasty it would more likely be Seth........
as Seth was on the "throne" ....... as the phaoroph at the time ....
had
the Seth title in his name, ur ancestor cult many be a factor but
its
not the factor nor that main one ! which is why in Egyptian times
..... society effects religion!! ...
> Everyone was allowed to worship their own ancestral
> gods NOT because they were gods but because they were a link to the
peoples
> past. That's why the Greeks worshiped Greek Gods and NOT Persian ones.
this is basically a meachism in which how two races become one .........
or
when 1 race conquered anther ...... they allowed or incorporated / mixed
the
2 religions........ BUT in sumerian / Babylonian times this mixing lead
to
a more important god being more worshipped....... due to the VICTOR
hence why horus was worshiped as he was original not of Egyptian
decent!
>
> >
> > anther is that they are simply paying respects to nature, and anther ,
> is
> > its
>
> BULLISHIT. If people respected nature they would not step on blades of
> grass.
that's the most crappest argument I have ever seen, the American Indians
respected nature as a result does that mean they cant kill animals to
eat!!!
nope........ your taking a extreme view...... and stepping on grass
doesn't
mean you disrepect nature ....... FOOL ....... other wise were can i step
on mud ...... nope that nature tooo.......... respect comes in
how you use it or if yor use it wastefully or not.
>Nature worship is all FICTION that was dreamt up in the 19th century
> when the Druid cult was re-invented.
there is a difference between respect and worship....... look it up!
> >
> >
> > > > >> All? Really? There was not a single ancient civilization that was
> not
> > > > >> based on an ancestor cult? That is quite a bold statement, and I
> have
> > > > >> not seen many scholars flocking to agree with it.
> > > > >
> > > > >Go take a look at some native American Totem Poles. Each time a new
> > chief
> > > > >took over a new figure was added to the pole. Ancestor Cult !
> >
> > The meaning of the totems IS NOT KNOWN!!! , they are many theories,
>
> It is PERFECTLY known. A new king to office and a new figure was added.
The
> American Indian religion was INVENTED by the Christian missionaries out of
> their own Christian beliefs and prejudices.
meaning nothing it doesn't address the argument at hand that is with
religion ppl and culture are not worshipping society but rather something
greater!!! don't avoid it!!....... yes respectively at times society
is
worshipped ....... but only as a result of something greater, and the
society
as a tendency to be Glued together by religion ....... hence EO
Wilson.!
>
> > ~ in the case of the Egyptians, society was also at some point
worshiped
> > in the form of the "pharaoh" BUT ...... only on the bass of there
> > religion!
>
> The Jews which turned the worship of Pharaoh into what became Monotheism
by
> replacing his name in the bible with YHWH, since Syria-Palestine has
always
> been an Egyptian vassal.
if this is so we would see similarities with the bible god with the
pharaoh type.
hmmm NO!! that's like saying the pope is god ........
> >
> > > > And? From this and a couple of other examples you extrapolate that
> > > > each and every civilization had an ancestor cult and there were no
> > > > goddess cults? You could just as easily "prove" that garlic keeps
> > > > vampires away, since you can find no vampires in any kitchen in
which
> > > > there is garlic.
> > >
> > > And on what do you base your argument that early man worshiped
spiritual
> > > gods. On a few conversation that Christian missionaries had with
tribes
> in
> > > Africa which they interfered with by trying to covert them. Its all
made
> > up.
> >
> > really the oldest African tribes, were not so polytheistic or
> henotheistic
> > as you
> > seem maybe to make out, in fact they tended to believe in a supreme
god,
>
> POPPYCOCK.
you should read proper anthropology then, and not some new age shit.....
which I am assuming were ur origin is.
> > a singular creator....... want a example? how about the
> pygmies!!!!......
>
> HA HA HA.... Don't make me laugh. The Pygmies were in contact with the
> Greeks and Phoenicians at the time of Herodotus. They are completely
> unsuitable to cite in any case studies of African religions. In fact ALL
> African populations are completely unsuitable for any kind case sutude of
> primitive religions because the spent thousands of years in contact with
the
> civilisations of the Egyptians, Greeks, Romans and Arabs before they made
> contact with western Europeans all of whom imposed their own religious
ideas
> on them.
I doubt that all the African tribes were sighted by them all but IF
they were
it makes no conter argument as the origins or the polytheistic
societies
tends to by mixing of other gods from other "races" and by sperations
of
a deity!
> > the interesting thing is that that didn't idols the god either, which
is
> > way very little
>
> Because they NEVER had a god.
prove that?
>If these people had gods that were any
> different from those of the Egyptians then Herodotus would have mentioned
> them.
why.......... is herodotus...... without error? may it even accur to
you
that herodotus at some point be a biggot??? or even for that matter
herodotus would even known of some things in around 5500bc??
Did this even accur in your head........ i doubt it.
>This is also another reason why Judaism NEVER existed until it was
> concocted in 65BC due to the Roman conquest of Palestine. If there was
ever
> a monotheistic religion in Syria-Palestine back in 440 BC Herodotus would
> have mentioned it. Instead Herodotus identified the inhabitants as
> Phoenicians and Syrians because the obviously worship the same gods as the
> Phoenicians and Syrians.
which is a result if true of "mixing" thankyou!
scribes wont just the writers they were the WISE MEN...... its like
saying
why do we need scientist to study science .
as for pollutions......... you fool as a professional chemist, much
pollutions
can be disposed of in a very easy natural manner(S) 1) live by the SEA
or
river........ its quite simple really! 2) a natural accruing system
of purify
water and basic filtration's system ...... i.e. REEDBEDS ( that's the
artificial
term , they do also accur naturally!!! but differ only in that of
basically a barrier
from the natural environment, and they have been seen in very ancient
times in India)
and armies take time to build up!!! more food which means you start
from small
to big farm lands ........ unless you think, some other solution i.e.
the primitive red
cross!!!
SO WHAT
!!!!!!!! ...............
> >
> > [ deleted ]
> >
> >
> >
> > > > That proves nothing. You misstated the "facts" to begin with, and
> > > > there is no proof that Tutankhamon was a full brother to Akhenaton's
> > > > daughters. He may not have been Akhenaton's son at all, though he
was
> > > > most certainly related.
> >
> > Quite right "Hope" its on of the reasons why DNA tests were to be done
> > on akhenaton and tukankhamon bodies!!!....... our friend seems to think
> > that letters always speak the truth!! wooow what science!!
>
> Tutankhamon was only 9 years old when he took the throne. There is NO WAY
he
> could be the son of Tutmoses IV or Amenhotep III since both were DEAD when
> Akhenaton took the throne and reigned 16 years.
"He may not have been Akhenaton's son at all" < from this you logicaly
assume
that ...... i think .... and you counter with ...."There is NO WAY he
could be the son of Tutmoses IV or Amenhotep III since both were DEAD when
Akhenaton took the throne and reigned 16 years."
ummmmmm can you follow anything!!!
the point is Who were Smenkhkare and Tutankhaten? They seemingly appeared
out of nowhere. It is almost certain that they were relatives of Akhenaten,
but
how they were related to him remains a mystery....... that's what i meant
BY
NEEDING DNA TESTING.
what's even more interesting is that you pay not attention or any form
or indication
that there is huge mystery over this matter....... in particular to
something known
as "tomb 55":
taken from a paper :
"In 1907, a tomb was discovered by Arthur Weigall and Theodore Davis in the
valley
of the kings. The tomb was associated with a most confusing jumble of
names. The
door bore the name of Tutankhamen, but inside was a piece of a large gilded
shrine
which was supposed to have belonged to queen Tiye, an alabaster jar lid that
portrayed a woman who is thought to be Akhenaten's lesser wife Kiya, and a
coffin, which had been made for a woman, that contained some poorly
preserved
human remains. The investigators of the tomb at first thought that the
remains were
Tiye's, but a closer examination revealed that they belonged to a young man,
about
twenty years old (Mahdy 46-47; Redford 189).
Immediately, people latched onto the idea that the body of Akhenaten had
finally
been discovered. But Akhenaten had reigned for 17 years and had already
fathered a child in the first year of his reign, so it would seem that this
body
was of someone too young to be Akhenaten (Redford 189; Mahdy 46-47;
Aldred 201). Although some people claimed that the body may have seemed
younger than it actually was because of some illness (Aldred 201), it would
seem more likely that the body was Smenkhkare's.
Anatomical examinations of the body in Tomb 55 showed that the young
man in the tomb bore a strong resemblance to Tutankhaten, and had the
same blood type as Tutankhaten, making it clear that this person was
either the father or brother of Tutankhaten (Aldred 201-202). "
hence why bodies were up for DNA testing!!!!!!!!! its SCIENCE!!
> >
> > > According to Manetho Acenchres was Tutankhamons sister PERIOD.
> >
> > Before , I stated ".....then again its poor scienftic practice to base
> > your
> > concepts on one source of information......" I don't think I need to
> > comment!
>
> FOOL. Dead mean don't father childeren. Acenchres was Tutankhamons sister
> PERIOD. If Manetho wrote it down like then then so did the Greek
> mythographers.
there you go again .........
>
> >
> > >is Ios-Sephus which means son of Cepheus.
> > > Cepheus being Amenhotep IV or kheferu-re. Its no wonder Joseph was
> called
> > > Tut-anch-amon because the Biblical story was CONCOCTED FICTION based
on
> > the
> > > Egyptian annals and spans the reigns of Akenaton through to the final
> year
> > > of Set I which is PRECISELY the year of Josephs death. Even the year
> that
> > > Tut-anch-amon took the throne corresponds to the year Joseph was
> abducted
> > > and taken to Egypt.
> >
> >
> > "CONCOCTED FICTION" Really??!! wow that's a totally new one, not,
> > in case you haven't noticed allot of archeological evidence as shown the
> > bible to be correct, ( in part ) I think that adresses the concocted
> > fiction!
>
> UTTER BULLSHIT. There is NOT ONE SHRED of archaeological evident to show
the
> existence of any form of "Jewish" religion that is in any way related to
the
> one of today prior to 65 BC.
who said anything about prior to 65BC??? and that's ur idea based on
arrogance and ignoring other early factors!
NOT ONE SHRED. No prayer boxes with "Hebrew"
> prayers on door posts or arm bands. No 7 branched candles sticks, NO
> Temples, no priestly robe with blue fringes and even the word Synagogue is
> GREEK.
>
> >
> > I also love the way ......... you translate the names very
interesting,
> > not to mention
> > that you think Cro-Magnon...... to be a work of fiction, very
> interesting,
> > I think
> > you should seriously consider, not typing anymore!
>
> The notion of the Cro-Magnon society that you base your incredulous
beliefs
> on was concocted by Conon Doyle. All that is know about Cro-Magnon is
bunch
> of skeletons and nothing more.
cave paintings , tools and other fossil remains....... and DNA
testing
were did i say it DID happen....... IF it did happen ...... it doesn't
nesscerly
mean that other people ...... in "around the area will nesscerly see
it!!!!
> The ONLY historical even that could account for a parting of any sea did
NOT
> occur in Egypt but in the Aegean when Thera erupted and sent a mage
Tsunami
> across the entire Greek world. This Tsunami is recorded in the
> archaeological record and also by the Egyptians. Why isn't the parting of
> the Rad Sea ?
>
> >
> > are you a new ager by the way??? ......... as for brain washed and
> > "IGNORANT" "FOOL"...
> >
> > Agamemnon CLASSSICS!!
> >
> > "And as for Cro-Magnon, wasn't that an invention of Sir Arthur Conan
Coye
> in
> > The Lost World ?"
> >
> > THE FACTS!! > lots of skeletons , showing cro-magnon man..... seems
to
> > flatly contradict "invention"........ agamemnon seems to be unaware
that
> > cro-magnon
>
> Lots of skeletons and NOTHING about their society which was invented by
> Conan Doyle.
cave paintings and tools etc........ what else do you want ......
writings
how is that possible hmmm???
>
> > man existed around the later part of the neaderthanl era , and
> after......
> > however
> > some contvescy still remains........ i.e. it seems quite likely that
> > cro-magnon could
> > have interbreed with neaderthanls, or even Homo estrus, evidence of
> > interbreeding
> > is in the form of a small skeleton of a hybrid child found in Portugal.
> >
> >
> > "What the hell are you talking about. There were NO old Turkish
religions.
> > The Turks were godless Mongols who come form Asia who adopted Islam.
> > They have NOTHING to do with the indigenous culture of Anatolia."
> >
> > FACTS : Catal Huyuk has shown EVIDENCE of a worshipped, goddess
> > in the form of a pregnet woman about to give birth, satute seating next
> to
> > lioness?
>
> This is NOT religion. This is ART.
that fact that at catal huyuk buulidgs were placed seems to show
that
of a similar structural layout of a church surrounded by a community
shows
this to be a religion.
terrible convenient for you!!!!. its almost as if u cant believe
it....
in that case .......... everything you have just said is " BULLSHIT"
> > protective city wall, and they described the place of their digging as
> more
> > than a town -- they described it as a city. And they found what they
call
> > primitive hieroglyphics: markings for record keeping of trade
> transactions.
>
> Oh and this means there was a goddess cult ? LOL....
along with shrine o look on a mound and central...... and it showing
ceramics of a more advanced design than previously encountered, which icons
of a sole worship goddess YES it does!!!
> > PRE - SUMERIAN ......... AND EVIDENCE SOMETHING OUR DEAREST
> > DOESN'T HAVE!......... SO MONOTHEISM DOES EXISTED BEFORE
> EGYPTIANS.......
> > AS DOES A GODDESS CULT!!
> >
>
> LOL... LOL... LOL...
poor aggy
b...@antispam.net
<48658b64.01123...@posting.google.com>,
mcin...@earthlink.net says...
> This alphabet invention has
> occurred only once in human history.
And where would you put Sequoia and the Cherokee alphabet?
Stay Frosty
>
> NOT at all!!!......... set , seth etc.... ( same name ) was never
> considered completely out right evil!...... in fact in later versions,
> Seth becomes guidian of the gods...... and even protector of RA or RE
> against Apopis ....( most ppl will know of him by his Greek name apophis)
>
Actually, In mythologies, as it were, I would liken Set to the Norse Loki.
-----= Posted via Newsfeeds.Com, Uncensored Usenet News =-----
http://www.newsfeeds.com - The #1 Newsgroup Service in the World!
Check out our new Unlimited Server. No Download or Time Limits!
-----== Over 80,000 Newsgroups - 19 Different Servers! ==-----
Hope
<insert-...@hello.to> wrote:
>>> >Venus figures = Pornography.
>>
>> In your eyes, perhaps. That does not make it so for the entire world.
>> The human figure is only obscene if you wish to attach unhealthy and
>> harmful sexual or sadomasochistic meaning to it. Humans can make
>> *anything* obscene, no matter how innocent.
>
>When did I say anything about it being obscene.
Hm...let's define terms, then. How do you define "pornography?"
>
>
>And on what do you base your argument that early man worshiped spiritual
>gods. On a few conversation that Christian missionaries had with tribes in
>Africa which they interfered with by trying to covert them. Its all made up.
>
>
>Do you know how many people it takes to did an irrigation canal system over
>1000 miles long ? Do you know that if there was no organised labour that the
>canal system would have been impossible to build or maintain let alone use.
>
>Go and read the Decent of Ishtar story which tells you what happens if you
>build to many irrigation canals which dry the river up completly.
>
>> would "foreigners" have to come and instruct them in what was going on
>> in their own backyards? Let me guess. Are you a decendent of this
>> master race?
>
>Without someone to give the orders about water use and conservation and when
>to plant the crops large scale agriculture would have been impossible.
>Without someone who had a large enough army to fend of bandits, farming of
>animals would have been futile.
Which addresses the question of why the "bosses" would have had to be
foreigners not at all. What a surprise.
>
>Go
>> >
>> >> >
>> >> >Hathor is a corruption of Assura, which is also Sara. Its the common
>> >title
>> >> >of a queen.
>> >> >
>> >> Again, this is fascinating, but upon what do you base this assertion?
>> >> Could you perhaps provide a link explaining how these different names
>> >> morphed from the parent name? I'm certain that it doesn't come across
>> >> well in English. Assura/Sara seems plausible. Assura/Hathor seems
>> >> quite a stretch in English. Is it closer in the original alphabet?
>> >
>> >Hathor(u) = Athor(u) = Assura = Ashura
>>
>> It seems quite a jump from Athor to Assura. Lots of letter changes! Do
>> you have documentation for this?
>
>There is only ONE letter change and that is from "SH" to "TH" which is very
>common in Afro-Asiatic influenced languages.
Except you have an "ss" rather than a "th" in Assura.
>
>Vowels were NEVER present in the original script.
Which is why *you* cannot be certain the "or" became "ura."
>
>> I was speaking of your evidence that Set was a Mittani Hittite king.
>
> * Kirta
> * Shuttarna I......................................fl. c. < 1550
> * Parattarna
> * Parsatatar.........................................fl. c. 1500
> * Sausatatar.........................................fl. c. 1480
> * Artatama...........................................fl. c. 1450
> * Shuttarna II
> * Artashshumara....................................fl. c. < 1390
> * Tushratta..........................................fl. c. 1360
> * Hittite vassals
> * Kurtiwaza...................................fl. c. < 1350
> * Shuttarna III.................................fl. c. 1340
> * Shattuara I.................................fl. c. < 1300
> * Wasashatta....................................fl. c. 1300
> * Shattuara II..................................fl. c. 1270
> * To Assyria........................................from c. 1270
>
>> I've read no evidence that the two identifiable cultures were ever
>> ruled by one king, let alone by Set. If you want to discuss the roots
>
>Mittani was an Egyptian Vassal from the time the Hyksos were expelled.
How does this prove that the Hittites and Mittanians were ruled by one
king? And I fail to see Set's name in your list...unless you want to
pick and name and say, "This, of course, is the same person as Set."
>
>> of the Indo-European language or other language groups, that's a
>> different topic.
>
>
>According to Manetho Acenchres was Tutankhamons sister PERIOD.
I will buy that if:
1. You can show me proof that Acenchres is Anksen
2. You can prove that everything Manetho said regarding things that
happened long before his life was accurate and fault-free.
3. You can prove that even if they were brother and sister, that means
the rest of your theory has to be correct.
>
>The Greek myth states that Andromeda was Cepheus daughter and Acenchres was
>the daughter of kheferu-re i.e. Cepheus. Both their mothers were vain. Both
>were to be given away as sacrificed. And both had their future husbands
>murdered. How do you know that Akhenaton didnt give his daughter away to
>Perseus.
Typical. "Can you prove that flying saucers *don't* exist?" Tsk, tsk.
Which daughter are we speaking of now? If we're still discussing the
widow of Tutankamon, it would have been rather difficult for Akhenaton
to give her away, unless contrary to all evidence and custom he was
still alive and had any say in the matter, even though he was
obviously no longer Pharoah. Your theory has more twists than a
pretzle.
>
>> >
>> >> scholars assume this "subject" was Horemheb, (or less likely Ay,) both
>> >> of whom did take the throne.
>> >
>> >Very likely since Manetho calls her Acenchres and mekas her the sister of
>> >Rathotis (Tutankhamun). Later on in Josephus dissembled version of
>Manetho
>> >accun she is called Acencheres and is given two concurrent reigns 12y5m
>and
>> >12y3m which add up to virtually the same length of time that Horemheb
>> >reigned. The fact that Horemheb was a commoner explains why Acenchres is
>> >named and not him.
>> >
>> >Further more Apollodorus and Herodotus have Herakles murder Horemheb and
>his
>> >son.
>>
>> What are you babbling about? There is no historical evidence Horemheb
>> had a son.
>
>Because he was murdered by Herakles !
Where is your proof?? Why is there no evidence of a son in Horemheb's
tomb or no word of him in any of the contemporary records? Why, with
so much evidence of the other individuals involved, is there not a
single written word about a son, nor a single ushabti, etc.
Your circular reasoning is of no avail. It is exactly the same
argument offered by Christian fundamentalists who say, "Every word in
the Bible is true because the Bible says that every word in it is
true, and everything written in the Bible is true, so that proves it."
>
>POPPYCOCK. The Bible state that Josephs Egyptian name was Psom-thom-fanich
>which is Tut-anch-amon.
You are unbelievable! Quote for me the chapter and verse that says,
"Joseph's Egyptian name was Psom-thom-fanich, which is Tut-anch-amon."
> Its pretty clear when Joseph live and that he was a
>contemporary of Horemheb.
Yeah, clear as mud.
> The bible give DATE for when Joseph live and for
>when the so-called famine occurred and these dates corresponded to the Reign
>of Horemheb.
Well, then, you had better hurry and publish this news so that
everyone else in the world who has been studying the matter and
debating the dates can find something else to do with their time.
Again, what chaper and verse would that be?
> Herodotus also corroborates the famine in Hormemhebs reign, and
>gives a precise date for it. Lysmahus also corroborates the famine and so do
>the Hittite records.
Um...there was more than one famine. It would be a miracle indeed if
there were only one famine in all the thousands of years of recorded
Egyptian history. "A" famine does not prove it to be "the" famine of
the Joseph story.
>Joseph in Greek since Greek is the langue that the
>Bible was originally written in,
not the only one..
> is Ios-Sephus which means son of Cepheus.
>Cepheus being Amenhotep IV or kheferu-re.
Okay, how many different names are you going to pin on these people?
Your whole "theory" rests in your ability to plug various names into
whatever slot you choose in order to "prove" that your intepretation
is correct.
> Its no wonder Joseph was called
>Tut-anch-amon
So now Tutankhamon was Joseph?? *throwing up my hands*
> because the Biblical story was CONCOCTED FICTION based on the
>Egyptian annals
Oh, this is rich! First you "prove" your arguments by stating that
it's all there in the Bible, and then you conclude the whole Biblical
story is fiction. *LMAO* Talk about throwing out the baby with the
bath water! You just knocked your own house of cards down.
> and spans the reigns of Akenaton through to the final year
>of Set I which is PRECISELY the year of Josephs death. Even the year that
>Tut-anch-amon took the throne corresponds to the year Joseph was abducted
>and taken to Egypt.
>
>>
>> >http://www.argyros.argyrou.btinternet.co.uk/myths/bible/History.htm
>> >
>> >This is backed up be Herodotus who states:
>> >
>> >"Herodotus [2.13.1] One fact which I learnt of the priests is to me a
>strong
>> >evidence of the origin of the country. They said that when Moeris was
>king,
>> >the Nile overflowed all Egypt below Memphis, as soon as it rose so little
>as
>> >eight cubits. Now Moeris had not been dead 900 years at the time when I
>> >heard this of the priests; yet at the present day, unless the river rise
>> >sixteen, or, at the very least, fifteen cubits, it does not overflow the
>> >lands." (Herodotus wrote in ~440 BC)
>>
>> What does this have to do with anything we were discussing? Razzle
>> dazzle.
>
>Its substantiates my argument you IGNORAMUS. You are the one who asked me
>for evidence but you don't want to even look at it.
>
I asked for evidence pertaining to the points under discussion. You
provided a tale about how high the Nile has to rise in order to
overflow the land. How is that relevant? Does it prove that foreigners
needed to come in and take over and regulate crops and planting? Does
it prove in which reign Joseph served? Does it prove your theory of
interchangeable names? Does it prove that no culture ever worshiped
goddesses? What does it have to do with anything?
And by the way, being called an IGNORAMUS by you is quite a
compliment. I would begin to worry if *you* complimented my
intelligence.
>> >
>> >Busiris, Moeris, Bocehoris (according to Lysimachus) and Horemheb
>1321-1293
>> >were all the same person.
>>
>> Why? What is the evidence that these four are one and the same?
>
>I have given you the evidence.
No, you have not. You have given me your interpretation of things.
Unless we suspend reason and allow indiscriminate switching of names,
it all falls apart.
>The Biblical famine of Joseph took place
>during the reign of Bocehoris. The dates given in the bible corroborate that
>this famine took place in the reign of Horemheb.
Again, show me the chapter and verse in this book of CONCOTED FICTION
that says this.
>Herodotus gives the precise
>date for the reign of Moeris which corresponds to that of Hormeheb during
>which he state the Nile flooded the entire land unexpectedly which would
>have destroyed the entire harvest.
And even if you could prove Moeris is Horemheb, and even if the Delta
did flood unexpectedly, and even if the entire Egyptian crop was in
the Delta (which it wasn't) that still does not prove *this* was the
start of the seven-year famine in the story of Joseph.
>And finally the Herakels story is
>referring to Alcius the son of Perseus who can be firmly dated to between
>1336 and 1286 BC dutring which Horemheb also reigned.
Yes, people did live contemporaniously. What a shock. Sons did die,
and often. So did kings.
>
>Go and take a look at the pictures of her in Akenatos tomb. It is an
>accepted FACT that Nefertiti was vain.
What?? You are able to deduce character traits such as vanity from
her pictures in his tomb? She was a queen, at a time when Pharoah was
trying to re-establish the godhead of the office. She most likely had
a deal of pride and may well have been vain. But even if you could
state this as fact from her picture, it does not prove she was the
character in the other story.
>
>> Besides the fact that makes no sense, no one and nothing was sent to
>> collect the princess in the Egyptian incident. The Hittite prince was
>
>Nothing ARRIVED. There is NO evidence that nothing was sent. Nothing arrived
>because Perseus destroyed the Trireme or dragon ship.
*sigh*
>
>IGNORANT BRAINWASHED FOOL...
>
>You just want to blindly believe the myth of Judo-Christianity and godhood
>and are not prepared to even contemplate it being a fictitious ancestor myth
>no differ from those of the Greek
Your name-calling means less than nothing to me. But don't make
youself such a public fool. You know nothing of my religious beliefs
or lack of. You are the one using the Bible on one hand to "prove"
your assertions while calling it a myth on the other. Decide which
side of the fence you want to land on before you presume to judge the
religious beliefs of others. I came here to discuss ancient Egypt,
not personal religious convictions. You pulled that out of *your* hat,
not mine. I have a feeling that is your stock insult when someone does
not buy into your paradigm. Must be because they were brainwashed by
religion. Phooey.
>The Greeks have archaeological evidence
>to back their myths up with the discoveries of Mycenae and Jason's palace
This proves the existance of those places and the historical existence
of some characters. It certainly does not prove the literal truth of
all Greek myths.
>but the Bible has NOTHING to back up its claims of a Joseph and Abraham
>unless they were IMPOSTS as ALL the ancient writers from Mantho to Lysmachus
>always claimed.
I have never argued for the existence of Joseph or Abraham. *You* were
George Black
or the Chinese?
MMG8M
>b...@antispam.net wrote:
>or the Chinese?
Hardly what you would call phonetic.
--
Even the Boy Scouts are politically incorrect.
What a world, what a world.
-- The Iron Webmaster, 123
MMG8M
Copies of European as they were originally pictograms.
--
It was the year we couldn't agree
what year it was on Babylon 5.
-- The Iron Webmaster, 117
Bernard Ortiz de Montellano
<gbl...@ihug.co.nz> wrote:
I think it is a question of how one defines an alphabet The usual
definition is of symbols corresponding to particular sounds (phonemes).
This definition would exclude the Chinese script.
Bernard Ortiz de Montellano
Agamemnon
>
> >
> >What evidence do you have that that figures were worshiped. Do you think
> >people as SO STUPID as to carve themselves a statue out of bone and then
> >worship it.
>
> The idea of images of gods and goddesses was not to worship the image
> itself, but the *spirit* represented by the object. It was an aid in
> the focus of thought.
POPPYCOCK my dear sheer POPPYCOCK.
It was pornography plain and simple. The women wore beads, the men made
themselves little dollies.
> >
> >They also carved images of Woolly Mammoths. Were these worshiped as giods
as
> >well ?
>
> Maybe, in a sense. It could well have been an attempt to capture or
> appeal to the spirit of the mammoth, whose existence was extremely
LOL....
> important to those folks. That would be a logical guess as to why
> images of food animals abounded, while there was almost no
BALDERDASH.
> representation of "artistic" elements such as flowers, trees, birds,
> etc. But it is all conjecture.
Why would you want to carve a tree or flower when you could chop one down of
pluck one up. And there were plenty of representations of birds, oh and
Humans in cave paintings.
> >
> >Dont be stupid. These images were ART and NOTHING more than mementos of
> >hunting trips and sexual conquests.
>
> How nice for you that you can be so certain that your belief is the
> one correct one.
> >
> >
>
> >> .......
> >
> >CRAP. There was NO such thing as "monotheism" until it was invented by
> >BIGOTS in the Christian era. The ancients regarded ALL gods as equal and
> >thus all races as equal.
>
> Then why did the Egyptians refer repeatedly to the "vile Asiatics" and
> "wretched Kush"? Do you really think they did not think themselves
> superior to other races?
Propaganda my dear girl. When did the Egyptians ever degrade the Gods of the
Greeks ? The Asiatics if this means the Mongols were completely godless and
uncivilised nomads who destroyed every trace of civilisation the came across
until Islam cam along or have you forgotten about Genghis Khan.
>
> >Everyone was allowed to worship their own ancestral
> >gods NOT because they were gods but because they were a link to the
peoples
> >past. That's why the Greeks worshiped Greek Gods and NOT Persian ones.
>
> Oh please. That's like saying "That's why we salute the American flag
> and not the Chinese one." Why would people make a deliberate trek to
> go looking for foreign gods to worship? It goes against human nature.
Why would they. THEY DIDN'T. The Gods of the Romans and Greeks were their
own ancestors. The rituals may have been borrowed from the Tammuz cult like
ALL religions but the Gods were not borrowed. Even the Cybele cult was an
ancestor cult since the Romans originated from Troy.
>
> And if they were all ancestral, why did the people invest them with
> all sorts of "godlike" powers? Why not just venerate them for their
> human characteristics?
What sort of godlike powers. I am not familiar with any.
>
>
> <snip>
> blah, blah,blah
> <snip>
> >
> >Tutankhamon was only 9 years old when he took the throne. There is NO WAY
he
> >could be the son of Tutmoses IV or Amenhotep III since both were DEAD
when
> >Akhenaton took the throne and reigned 16 years.
>
> This might be true...*if* you can prove there was no co-regency. So
> far Egyptologists have been unable to reach a consensus about that,
> and even the co-regency camp can't find enough evidence to agree on a
> length. So for you to claim to have the "facts" of the matter is
> laughable.
IDIOT. All that matters is that it was written that Amenhotep IV had a
daughter who was given away to a foreign prince who was murdered. This is
the basis of the Perseus story.
Perseus reign can be firmly dated to before 1286 BC since this has been
establishd as the year of Herakles conception by the occurrence of a Total
Solar Eclipse directly over Mycenae in February of that year. The time of
his birth corresponds to the time at which the festival of Beltane is
celebrated since his original name was Palaemon (Baal/Belus-Adamos =
Wa-na-ka-da-ma-(s))* until his madness. He was born when the sun was in the
10th constellation which in 1286 due to the precession of the earth axis was
around about 30 October / 1 November a month earlier than in Roman times
when it occurred in December. Alcius ruled during the reign of Horemheb
which can be confirmed and dated by Herodotus which leaves Perseus his
father as a contemporary of Akenaton. Since Atreus reign can also be dated
precisely by another total solar eclipse, and the reign of Argos is bounded
by the Thera erruption, it is not that difficult to work out the entire
chronology and basis of Greek mythology.
>
> There is even a theory that Akhenaton married his own mother Tiye, and
> that Tut was the result of this union...from which sprang the Oedipus
> tale. How about *them* apples? *LOL*
Oedipus ruled from 1264-1244 since Herodotus states that Laius his father
was a contemporary of Amphitrion Herakles (step-)father, which rules out any
Egyptian influence on the story since nothing much happened while Ramses II
was Pharaoh. He was too much of a coward to stay and fight.
*The name Herakles is nothing more than a corruption of Wa-na-ka-le-u-(s) or
in modern Greek "Anax Laos" meaning King of the People. His previous name
Palaemon or Wa-na-ka-da-ma-(s) in modern Greek is "Anax Demos" also meaning
King of the People. This not only proves the continuity of Herakles name but
it also proves that Hera is yet another personification of Gia, Io (Ioun)
and Luna. Sh ewas no goddess by a Queen. Even the name Baal is a derivative
of Wa-na-ka-(s) which is also the Proto-Indo-European root of the number
"one" thus Baal or Belus, corrupted to Melech, Melquart, Mot, Matten, and
Maraduk was NEVER an Afro-Asiatic god but and Indo-European king.
Infact the full title for Herakles in Linear-B would have been
Di-wa-na-ka-le-u-(s) or "Deon Anax Laos" or "Lord God of the people".
Note that in Linear-B "le-u-(s)" is equivalent to "re-u-(s) so the name of
the goddess Ra the wife of Cronos is nothing more than a corruption of the
Linear-B "Qa-si-re-a" meaning "Queen".
And of course the name Deukaleon is quite clearly yet another corruption of
"Di-wa-na-ka-le-u-(s)" which means that all the kings of the Hittites by the
name Thurgal or Tudhalia must have been Greeks.
The Hittite name Myrsilus is also derived form the Greek Qa-si-re-u-(s) or
"Basilaus" which means that the Biblical name Saul is infact GREEK. Proving
once again that the inhabitant of Canaan were Indo-Europeans and NOT
Afro-Asiatics.
Now ask yourself why the Sumerians and Babylonians worshiped a god called
Tammuz, which is the Greek word Demos, meaning the people and why Adamos, is
the GREEK conjugation of Demos to denote One of the people. Your Adam and
Eve (Wa-na = Io) were infact GREEK Indo-Europeans. The entire religious
system of Mesopotamia was based upon the memory of an Indo-European
monarchy.
Agamemnon
Oh and before I forget. "Di-wa-na" is not only the root of Diana, but it is
also the root of the Sumerian goddess Inanna and the Babylonian Annat
(Di-wa-na-ka). ONLY the GREEK and specifically Linear-B rendering of the
name gives you the common root of all three goddesses names. Just like Io
and Luna, Diana, Inanna and Annat were moon goddesses.
Ever wonder why all the names of the Assyro-Babylonian gods can be reduced
to Greek ? They were all Greek kings and queens.
Agamemnon
"ss" is pronounced "SH" as in Anna Vissi (Vishy). It does not take much
corruption to get from "sh" to "th"
> >
> >Vowels were NEVER present in the original script.
>
> Which is why *you* cannot be certain the "or" became "ura."
WRONG. Which is why I can be 100% certain that the "R" was pronounced with
"or" or "ura" or in any other combination.
> >
>
> >> I was speaking of your evidence that Set was a Mittani Hittite king.
> >
> > * Kirta
> > * Shuttarna I......................................fl. c. < 1550
> > * Parattarna
> > * Parsatatar.........................................fl. c. 1500
> > * Sausatatar.........................................fl. c. 1480
> > * Artatama...........................................fl. c. 1450
> > * Shuttarna II
> > * Artashshumara....................................fl. c. < 1390
> > * Tushratta..........................................fl. c. 1360
> > * Hittite vassals
> > * Kurtiwaza...................................fl. c. < 1350
> > * Shuttarna III.................................fl. c. 1340
> > * Shattuara I.................................fl. c. < 1300
> > * Wasashatta....................................fl. c. 1300
> > * Shattuara II..................................fl. c. 1270
> > * To Assyria........................................from c. 1270
> >
> >> I've read no evidence that the two identifiable cultures were ever
> >> ruled by one king, let alone by Set. If you want to discuss the roots
> >
> >Mittani was an Egyptian Vassal from the time the Hyksos were expelled.
>
> How does this prove that the Hittites and Mittanians were ruled by one
> king? And I fail to see Set's name in your list...unless you want to
> pick and name and say, "This, of course, is the same person as Set."
Are you stupid or what.
Shuttarna I, Shuttarna II, Shuttarna III, Shattuara I, Shattuara II.
There is is FIVE times !!!!.
Shuttarna III would have ruled at the same time as Akenathon making him the
best possible candidate for Cetus, the sea monster killed by Perseus.
Shuttarna I ruled at the time of the Hyksos expulsion which is the origin of
the Myth about the death and resurrection of Osiris, which is almost
entirely down to Plutarch.
> >
> >> of the Indo-European language or other language groups, that's a
> >> different topic.
> >
> >
> >According to Manetho Acenchres was Tutankhamons sister PERIOD.
>
> I will buy that if:
> 1. You can show me proof that Acenchres is Anksen
Anyway heres the corrected king list (y.m is years and months, }{ indicates
a king missing from Manethos record as given by Josephus. Kings with
repeated names/ alternate spellings, and coregents are grouped together)
Amenophis (20.7) [Ahmoses part reigning under the name Amenophis]
+Amesses (sister 21.9) [with his sister Ahmose-Nofretari]
= Thethtoosis (25.4) {drove out Hyksos (acc. to Josephus)} [Ahmoses reigning
in full 1570-1546]
Mephres (12.9) [Amenhotep under the name of Mephres]
=Chebron (son of Thethtoosis 13)
=Mephramuthosis (25.10) [full reign of Amenhotep 1551-1524]
Thmosis (9.8) [Tuthmosis 1525-1518]
#}Tuthmosis II 1518-1504{
#}Tuthmosis III 1503-1450 {
+ }Hatshepsut (fem.) 1498-1483{
Amenophis (30.10) [Amenhotep II 1453-1419]
#}Tuthmosis IV 1419-1386{
Orus (36.5) [Amenhotep III 1386-1349]
#}Amenhotep IV Akhnaten 1350-1334{
Acenchres (daughter 12.1) [(Ankhesenamen) Smenkhkare 1336-1334 with...]
(Asenath)
+Rathotis (brother 9) [Tutankhamun (Ra-Tutis) 1334-1325 claimed Amenhtep III
as father]
#}Kheperkheprure Ai 1325-1321{
Acencheres (12.5) [1/2 Horemheb 1321-1293]
=Acencheres (12.3) [1/2 Horemheb 1321-1293]
Armais (4.1) [Ramesses I]
Sethosis #}Seti I 1291-1278{
Ramesses (1.4) [Ramasses the Great coregent with Seti]
=Armesses Miammoun (66.2) [Ramasses the Great alone 1279-1212 ]
#}Merneptah 1212-1202{
Amenophis (19.6) [Amenemses over one half of Egypt 1202-1199 ]
> 2. You can prove that everything Manetho said regarding things that
> happened long before his life was accurate and fault-free.
> 3. You can prove that even if they were brother and sister, that means
> the rest of your theory has to be correct.
See previous posts. All I need to show to substantiate my argument is that
Ankhesenamen is credited as the daughter of Akenathon and that she was given
away to a foreign prince. NOONE is disputing either of these facts. They are
all recorded. Who her brother was is ireelvent.
> >
> >The Greek myth states that Andromeda was Cepheus daughter and Acenchres
was
> >the daughter of kheferu-re i.e. Cepheus. Both their mothers were vain.
Both
> >were to be given away as sacrificed. And both had their future husbands
> >murdered. How do you know that Akhenaton didnt give his daughter away to
> >Perseus.
>
> Typical. "Can you prove that flying saucers *don't* exist?" Tsk, tsk.
>
> Which daughter are we speaking of now? If we're still discussing the
> widow of Tutankamon, it would have been rather difficult for Akhenaton
> to give her away, unless contrary to all evidence and custom he was
> still alive and had any say in the matter, even though he was
> obviously no longer Pharoah. Your theory has more twists than a
> pretzle.
Cepheus was the Ethiopian king of Joppa. Akhenaton does not need to be
ruling over Egypt for the myth to hold true. The fact that he had a daughter
that was given away is all that is required to build the myth on.
A generation or two earlier the Abraham Myth, about him going to Egypt and
prostituting his wife Sarah to pharaoh was based on the Mittani story about
a Mittani princess who was the daughter of sister of Artatama/Artashumara
being given away to pharaoh.
www.argyros.argyrou.btinternet.co.uk/myths/bible/EstablishChronology.htm
IDOT. Who do you think Ramses I was. All the contemporary record show that
he was adopted by Horemheb and he only reigned a couple of years.
>
> Your circular reasoning is of no avail. It is exactly the same
> argument offered by Christian fundamentalists who say, "Every word in
> the Bible is true because the Bible says that every word in it is
> true, and everything written in the Bible is true, so that proves it."
FOOL
> >
> >POPPYCOCK. The Bible state that Josephs Egyptian name was
Psom-thom-fanich
> >which is Tut-anch-amon.
>
> You are unbelievable! Quote for me the chapter and verse that says,
> "Joseph's Egyptian name was Psom-thom-fanich, which is Tut-anch-amon."
Genesis 41:45 And Pharao called the name of Joseph, Psonthomphanech; and he
gave him Aseneth, the daughter of Petephres, priest of Heliopolis, to wife.
Even the name Josephs wife corresponds to that of Tutanchamons wife
Acenchres Ankhesenamen.
>
> > Its pretty clear when Joseph live and that he was a
> >contemporary of Horemheb.
>
> Yeah, clear as mud.
>
> > The bible give DATE for when Joseph live and for
> >when the so-called famine occurred and these dates corresponded to the
Reign
> >of Horemheb.
>
> Well, then, you had better hurry and publish this news so that
> everyone else in the world who has been studying the matter and
> debating the dates can find something else to do with their time.
> Again, what chaper and verse would that be?
www.argyros.argyrou.btinternet.co.uk/myths/bible/EstablishChronology.htm
www.argyros.argyrou.btinternet.co.uk/myths/bible/History.htm
The famine occurred c.1315
>
>
> > Herodotus also corroborates the famine in Hormemhebs reign, and
> >gives a precise date for it. Lysmahus also corroborates the famine and so
do
> >the Hittite records.
>
> Um...there was more than one famine. It would be a miracle indeed if
> there were only one famine in all the thousands of years of recorded
> Egyptian history. "A" famine does not prove it to be "the" famine of
> the Joseph story.
The fact that Herodotus give the DATE for this famine and this corresponds
to the biblical date for the feminine of Joseph firmly establishes which one
it was.
www.argyros.argyrou.btinternet.co.uk/myths/bible/History.htm
>
>
> >Joseph in Greek since Greek is the langue that the
> >Bible was originally written in,
>
> not the only one..
The Hebrew version is a later translation. The "Jewish" square script DID
NOT exist when the Septuagint is alleged to have been place in the Library
of Alexandria. The Greek came first. The Hebrew version was a plagiarised
version of the LXX dissembled by the Maccabees 100 years later.
>
> > is Ios-Sephus which means son of Cepheus.
> >Cepheus being Amenhotep IV or kheferu-re.
>
> Okay, how many different names are you going to pin on these people?
> Your whole "theory" rests in your ability to plug various names into
> whatever slot you choose in order to "prove" that your intepretation
> is correct.
My argument is based on firm scientifically proven dates.
>
> > Its no wonder Joseph was called
> >Tut-anch-amon
>
> So now Tutankhamon was Joseph?? *throwing up my hands*
Yes. The Joseph character is the biblical FICTION was based on Tutankhamon.
>
> > because the Biblical story was CONCOCTED FICTION based on the
> >Egyptian annals
>
> Oh, this is rich! First you "prove" your arguments by stating that
> it's all there in the Bible, and then you conclude the whole Biblical
> story is fiction. *LMAO* Talk about throwing out the baby with the
> bath water! You just knocked your own house of cards down.
IDIOT. Sherlock Homes is fiction by there was still a Scotland Yard, a Baker
Street and a Queen Victoria. Conan Doyle based the character Sherlock Homes
on one of his friends. The bible was written in the same manner. Its
historical fiction.
CRETIN. I gave you the address of my web page which explains everything in
full but it is obvious that you have not even read it. Until you have read
every single page and followed my argument properly there is nothing to
discuss with you. I am not going to keep repeating myself.
>
> And by the way, being called an IGNORAMUS by you is quite a
> compliment. I would begin to worry if *you* complimented my
> intelligence.
FOOL
> >> >
> >> >Busiris, Moeris, Bocehoris (according to Lysimachus) and Horemheb
> >1321-1293
> >> >were all the same person.
> >>
> >> Why? What is the evidence that these four are one and the same?
> >
> >I have given you the evidence.
>
> No, you have not. You have given me your interpretation of things.
> Unless we suspend reason and allow indiscriminate switching of names,
> it all falls apart.
EVIDENCE
www.argyros.argyrou.btinternet.co.uk/myths/bible/EstablishChronology.htm
>
> >The Biblical famine of Joseph took place
> >during the reign of Bocehoris. The dates given in the bible corroborate
that
> >this famine took place in the reign of Horemheb.
>
> Again, show me the chapter and verse in this book of CONCOTED FICTION
> that says this.
See the account of Lysimachus
www.argyros.argyrou.btinternet.co.uk/myths/bible/ParaApion.htm
>
> >Herodotus gives the precise
> >date for the reign of Moeris which corresponds to that of Hormeheb during
> >which he state the Nile flooded the entire land unexpectedly which would
> >have destroyed the entire harvest.
>
> And even if you could prove Moeris is Horemheb, and even if the Delta
> did flood unexpectedly, and even if the entire Egyptian crop was in
> the Delta (which it wasn't) that still does not prove *this* was the
> start of the seven-year famine in the story of Joseph.
YES IT DOES. Lysimachus places Joseph in firmly in the reign of Heremheb.
I hav given you FIVE independent references of this famine, Herodotus who
diretly dates it and names the king, the bible which diretly dates it,
Apollodorus who names the king and indirectly dates it, the Hittite records
which date it and name the king, and Lysimachus who names the king and is
dated by Josephus.
>
> >And finally the Herakels story is
> >referring to Alcius the son of Perseus who can be firmly dated to between
> >1336 and 1286 BC dutring which Horemheb also reigned.
>
> Yes, people did live contemporaniously. What a shock. Sons did die,
> and often. So did kings.
>
>
> >
> >Go and take a look at the pictures of her in Akenatos tomb. It is an
> >accepted FACT that Nefertiti was vain.
>
> What?? You are able to deduce character traits such as vanity from
> her pictures in his tomb? She was a queen, at a time when Pharoah was
From the fact that the pictures and all mention of her was DEFACED from
virtually every monument.
> trying to re-establish the godhead of the office. She most likely had
BULLSHIT. Amenhotep was attempting to turn Egypt into a totalitarian
dictatorship with him as its sole god. It would have been like the years of
Pol Pot when he erased Cambodia's entire history and set the calendar to the
year 1.
> a deal of pride and may well have been vain. But even if you could
> state this as fact from her picture, it does not prove she was the
> character in the other story.
> >
>
> >> Besides the fact that makes no sense, no one and nothing was sent to
> >> collect the princess in the Egyptian incident. The Hittite prince was
> >
> >Nothing ARRIVED. There is NO evidence that nothing was sent. Nothing
arrived
> >because Perseus destroyed the Trireme or dragon ship.
>
> *sigh*
>
> >
> >IGNORANT BRAINWASHED FOOL...
> >
> >You just want to blindly believe the myth of Judo-Christianity and
godhood
> >and are not prepared to even contemplate it being a fictitious ancestor
myth
> >no differ from those of the Greek
>
> Your name-calling means less than nothing to me. But don't make
> youself such a public fool. You know nothing of my religious beliefs
> or lack of. You are the one using the Bible on one hand to "prove"
> your assertions while calling it a myth on the other. Decide which
> side of the fence you want to land on before you presume to judge the
> religious beliefs of others. I came here to discuss ancient Egypt,
> not personal religious convictions or lack of. You pulled that out of
> *your* hat, not mine.
"Re: Egyptian myth and Christian Faith"
You are more concerned with Christian faith than the fact that it was based
on an Egyptian Myth which I have exposed for all to see, except the
fanatical bigots.
>
>
> >The Greeks have archaeological evidence
> >to back their myths up with the discoveries of Mycenae and Jason's palace
>
> This proves the existance of those places and the historical existence
> of some characters. It certainly does not prove the literal truth of
> all Greek myths.
The fact that there WAS an eclipse in February 1286 visible over Mycenae
proves that the Greek account of the date of Herakles conception is
literally true. The Greeks could not have made it all up.
>
> >but the Bible has NOTHING to back up its claims of a Joseph and Abraham
> >unless they were IMPOSTS as ALL the ancient writers from Mantho to
Lysmachus
> >always claimed.
>
> I have never argued for the existence of Joseph or Abraham. *You* were
> the one throwing their names around. I was addressing the ridiculous
> nature of your "facts" about interchangeable characters and your
> penchant for twisting and mixing and ignoring archaelogical evidence
> to fit your pet theories. I will now add your skill with red herrings
> to the list.
POPPYCOCK.
You just cannot accept that the bible is a pack of lies and the Greek myths
are true and that all the gods were peoples ancetors. You want to believe in
a false biblical god that is not even your own ancestor but a foreigner and
the personification of the Pharaohs of Egypt who was invented in 65 BC.
tuppennyblue
of the third millennium BC, the Hebrew (or Jewish) alphabet doesn't go back
that far, does it? I can't quite follow how one is much later than the other
yet they are 'co-emergent'. As far as I know, there is no sign of
'co-emergence' of similar letters in (for example) Cuneiform and Hieroglyphs
(relative contemporaries by comparison?) - surely the logical conclusion is
that at least some letters in the Hebrew/Jewish Alphabet descended either
directly or indirectly from Hieroglyphs. To the Egyptians, there was a
mystical link between the alphabet and the pantheon - if one language has
its roots in the other then would it be stretching the point to assume that
there must at one time have been cultural and religious links
between the two societies - ie might this be supportive evidence for the
claim that the Jews spent a period of time in Egypt?
"steve" <whi...@shore.net> wrote in message
news:5F7X7.11256$Cx2.2...@news1.news.adelphia.net...
> > Slight change of direction here... I'm really talking about things
that
> I
> > don't know anything much about, but I can't help but noticing a certain
> > similarity between the Egyptian hieroglyphic alphabet and the Hebrew
> > alphabet - letters such as aleph, yod, shin, appear in both and have not
> > dissimilar written forms - does anyone know whether there is any
> recognised
> > link between the two? Could the Hebrew alphabet be descended from the
> > Egyptian?
>
> Egyptian has some phonems associated with glyphs,
> so do a number of other scripts that are in use before
> the Hebrew alphabet at places from the Negev toUgarit.
>
> The Hebrew alphabet isn't so much descended from other alphabets
> as co-emergent.
>
> http://www.ancientscripts.com/alphabet.html#tree
>
> Peter Daniels of sci.lang gram...@att.net
> is a good resource if you want to
> research it further
>
> regards,
>
> steve
>
>
Danny niccoli
> news:ffvu2u4dln6koq1g4...@4ax.com...
> >
> > >
> > >What evidence do you have that that figures were worshiped. Do you
think
> > >people as SO STUPID as to carve themselves a statue out of bone and
then
> > >worship it.
> >
> > The idea of images of gods and goddesses was not to worship the image
> > itself, but the *spirit* represented by the object. It was an aid in
> > the focus of thought.
>
> POPPYCOCK my dear sheer POPPYCOCK.
One what basis is this so??? ...... all I hear is a one sided opininon
with no
substance.
> It was pornography plain and simple. The women wore beads, the men made
> themselves little dollies.
still hasnt been adressed, not only that now our dear aggy, knows without a
doudt that women NEVER made them....... instesting, have you been speaking
to them, no that would be silly, maybe you were there?
> > >
> > >They also carved images of Woolly Mammoths. Were these worshiped as
giods
> as
> > >well ?
> >
> > Maybe, in a sense. It could well have been an attempt to capture or
> > appeal to the spirit of the mammoth, whose existence was extremely
>
> LOL....
insert reason if possible
> > important to those folks. That would be a logical guess as to why
> > images of food animals abounded, while there was almost no
>
> BALDERDASH.
>
> > representation of "artistic" elements such as flowers, trees, birds,
> > etc. But it is all conjecture.
>
> Why would you want to carve a tree or flower when you could chop one down
of
> pluck one up.
and?......... thats not addressing the arguement yet again its simply
a reply or a responce, not an answer...... please use rationale.
Has for flowers....... thanks for bringing it up, flowers have been found
next to purposeful burials , of neaderthanls and cro_mangon man..
o sorry you think they dont exist! ........ you know what this means
a layout out body..... all buried in a particalr way with flowers.....
respect
for the dead!! ......... OR in you tiny head, art work, but then why
would
cave paintings show, a sprit leaving a body of a hunter...... I think its
more
likely it being religion, in the form of art, rather than art.
>And there were plenty of representations of birds, oh and
> Humans in cave paintings.
>
> > >
> > >Dont be stupid. These images were ART and NOTHING more than mementos of
> > >hunting trips and sexual conquests.
> >
> > How nice for you that you can be so certain that your belief is the
> > one correct one.
> > >
> > >
> >
> > >> .......
> > >
> > >CRAP. There was NO such thing as "monotheism" until it was invented by
> > >BIGOTS in the Christian era. The ancients regarded ALL gods as equal
and
> > >thus all races as equal.
> >
> > Then why did the Egyptians refer repeatedly to the "vile Asiatics" and
> > "wretched Kush"? Do you really think they did not think themselves
> > superior to other races?
>
> Propaganda my dear girl. When did the Egyptians ever degrade the Gods of
the
> Greeks ?
>The Asiatics if this means the Mongols were completely godless and
> uncivilised nomads who destroyed every trace of civilisation the came
across
> until Islam cam along or have you forgotten about Genghis Khan.
I have already adress archaeological evidence, that they were not....
orignaly )
> >
> > >Everyone was allowed to worship their own ancestral
> > >gods NOT because they were gods but because they were a link to the
> peoples
> > >past. That's why the Greeks worshiped Greek Gods and NOT Persian ones.
> >
> > Oh please. That's like saying "That's why we salute the American flag
> > and not the Chinese one." Why would people make a deliberate trek to
> > go looking for foreign gods to worship? It goes against human nature.
>
> Why would they. THEY DIDN'T. The Gods of the Romans and Greeks were their
> own ancestors. The rituals may have been borrowed from the Tammuz cult
like
> ALL religions but the Gods were not borrowed. Even the Cybele cult was an
> ancestor cult since the Romans originated from Troy.
bollocks has you so nicely put it......... I have already shown how this is
not
so ........ The word "borrowed" is so losly defined by you, to allow you
to think that all religions started off sperately....... its has argonat has
saying there is a new scientfic idea! ......... all scientist at some point
have
there idea from a orginal one...... even if the orginal one is WRONG.
Not to mention that by saying this You have in vast contradicted yourself
specaly when allot of your aguements...... have described anesctor cult
, they were names of "kings" for example, and then worhsipped,
and there after other "races" come along ...... and worship them, but in
alot of case's the names change! ........ mmmmmmmm idiot!!!
and the faults on ancestoral worship, that i placed you havent addressed
please for my amusment TRY to!
I wrote:
"the work of "Emile Durkheim in about 1912 " which basically shows that
religion is the worship of society itself..... About it may be shrouded in
myths and symbolism!........
The problem with is:
note: his work was by in large asscotied with Australian totems, but there
are similar in this context to North American totems.
1) durkheims work was not really his own first hand and also it wasn't
even complete
2) PEOPLE DON'T NORMALLY WORSHIP SOCIETY BUT ACTUALLY
CLAIM TO CARE FOR SOMETHING EVEN MORE!!! ...... ALSO
THIS TENDS TO BE EVEN AGAINST THE DOMINATE SOCIETY!!
~ in the case of the Egyptians, society was also at some point worshiped
in the form of the "pharaoh" BUT ...... only on the bass of there
religion! that is that there society was incorporated into there religion
over time, anther example of this was the river Nile was known
as orisis!!...... after time society and religions was built around
this....... and before Egyptian times we see that
societies was keeped together by incorporating other religions,
to unify to "races" or different societies into one! and this
same method is countunessly seen!!!"
please insert counter rationale here !!!!
> > And if they were all ancestral, why did the people invest them with
> > all sorts of "godlike" powers? Why not just venerate them for their
> > human characteristics?
In deffence for aggy..... no offence hope, But the "godlike" powers
come more in the form, of enchancments!!...... so one maybe strong
but , this is taken to far, then again, this is idolising!!! .....:)
this doesnt mean that anestory cult is the factor, it may be on some
level be a factor, but not nesscerly a driving [ intional ] force!
> What sort of godlike powers. I am not familiar with any.
He said "godlike" powers ........ rather than as u script it
godlike powers........ the speach mark is very important!
> >
> >
> > <snip>
> > blah, blah,blah
> > <snip>
> > >
> > >Tutankhamon was only 9 years old when he took the throne. There is NO
WAY
> he
> > >could be the son of Tutmoses IV or Amenhotep III since both were DEAD
> when
> > >Akhenaton took the throne and reigned 16 years.
> >
> > This might be true...*if* you can prove there was no co-regency. So
> > far Egyptologists have been unable to reach a consensus about that,
> > and even the co-regency camp can't find enough evidence to agree on a
> > length. So for you to claim to have the "facts" of the matter is
> > laughable.
>
> IDIOT. All that matters is that it was written that Amenhotep IV had a
> daughter who was given away to a foreign prince who was murdered. This is
> the basis of the Perseus story.
no idiot aggy!! ....... for one amenhotep had many daughters!! so which
one??? and the relationship of all of them not just the daughterS but
also
tut........ are very unclear!!
> Perseus reign can be firmly dated to before 1286 BC since this has been
> establishd as the year of Herakles conception by the occurrence of a Total
> Solar Eclipse directly over Mycenae in February of that year. The time of
> his birth corresponds to the time at which the festival of Beltane is
> celebrated since his original name was Palaemon (Baal/Belus-Adamos =
> Wa-na-ka-da-ma-(s))* until his madness. He was born when the sun was in
the
> 10th constellation which in 1286 due to the precession of the earth axis
was
> around about 30 October / 1 November a month earlier than in Roman times
> when it occurred in December. Alcius ruled during the reign of Horemheb
> which can be confirmed and dated by Herodotus which leaves Perseus his
> father as a contemporary of Akenaton. Since Atreus reign can also be dated
> precisely by another total solar eclipse, and the reign of Argos is
bounded
> by the Thera erruption, it is not that difficult to work out the entire
> chronology and basis of Greek mythology.
and if this links to christianity, and jewish religion, o would except
lots of
simlairties, the fact that there are more DIFFERENCES .... seems to excape
you and dear sigmound freud!!
> >
> > There is even a theory that Akhenaton married his own mother Tiye, and
> > that Tut was the result of this union...from which sprang the Oedipus
> > tale. How about *them* apples? *LOL*
>
> Oedipus ruled from 1264-1244 since Herodotus states that Laius his father
> was a contemporary of Amphitrion Herakles (step-)father, which rules out
any
> Egyptian influence on the story since nothing much happened while Ramses
II
> was Pharaoh. He was too much of a coward to stay and fight.
>
> *The name Herakles is nothing more than a corruption of Wa-na-ka-le-u-(s)
or
> in modern Greek "Anax Laos" meaning King of the People. His previous name
> Palaemon or Wa-na-ka-da-ma-(s) in modern Greek is "Anax Demos" also
meaning
> King of the People. This not only proves the continuity of Herakles name
but
> it also proves that Hera is yet another personification of Gia, Io (Ioun)
> and Luna. Sh ewas no goddess by a Queen. Even the name Baal is a
derivative
> of Wa-na-ka-(s) which is also the Proto-Indo-European root of the number
> "one" thus Baal or Belus, corrupted to Melech, Melquart, Mot, Matten, and
> Maraduk was NEVER an Afro-Asiatic god but and Indo-European king.
above you said religions....... independtly evolve hmmmmmm !!!
> Infact the full title for Herakles in Linear-B would have been
> Di-wa-na-ka-le-u-(s) or "Deon Anax Laos" or "Lord God of the people".
>
> Note that in Linear-B "le-u-(s)" is equivalent to "re-u-(s) so the name of
> the goddess Ra the wife of Cronos is nothing more than a corruption of the
> Linear-B "Qa-si-re-a" meaning "Queen".
>
> And of course the name Deukaleon is quite clearly yet another corruption
of
> "Di-wa-na-ka-le-u-(s)" which means that all the kings of the Hittites by
the
> name Thurgal or Tudhalia must have been Greeks.
>
> The Hittite name Myrsilus is also derived form the Greek Qa-si-re-u-(s) or
> "Basilaus" which means that the Biblical name Saul is infact GREEK.
Proving
> once again that the inhabitant of Canaan were Indo-Europeans and NOT
> Afro-Asiatics.
>
> Now ask yourself why the Sumerians and Babylonians worshiped a god called
> Tammuz, which is the Greek word Demos, meaning the people and why Adamos,
is
> the GREEK conjugation of Demos to denote One of the people. Your Adam and
> Eve (Wa-na = Io) were infact GREEK Indo-Europeans. The entire religious
> system of Mesopotamia was based upon the memory of an Indo-European
> monarchy.
>
are you aruging that the religious sytem originated from indo- european
origin........ did you know that the orignal religious sytem of which is
not
as such known....... and there is strong arguement for montheism there to,
thats not nesscerly saying IT WAS ....... I know i dont know much about
Indo-European religions, but i have read a few pieces!
Agamemnon
> The Egyptian Hieroglyphic alphabet demonstrably goes back to the beginning
> of the third millennium BC, the Hebrew (or Jewish) alphabet doesn't go
back
> that far, does it? I can't quite follow how one is much later than the
other
The Jewish alphabet goes back no further than mid-Hellenistic times.
> yet they are 'co-emergent'. As far as I know, there is no sign of
> 'co-emergence' of similar letters in (for example) Cuneiform and
Hieroglyphs
> (relative contemporaries by comparison?) - surely the logical conclusion
is
> that at least some letters in the Hebrew/Jewish Alphabet descended either
> directly or indirectly from Hieroglyphs. To the Egyptians, there was a
POPPYCOCK. The Jewish alphabet goes back no further than mid-Hellenistic
times.
The Archaic-Greek Alphabet dates back to 1100 BC and is so indistinguishble
from Phoenician script that it is impossible to say which came first.
Eastern Phoenician script evolved 100 years later and all the all the above
were descended from Proto-Canaanite which should be termed Cadmean.
Cadmean has NOTHING to do with either Cuneiform of Egyptian Hieroglyphics.
They all evolved separately.
> mystical link between the alphabet and the pantheon - if one language has
> its roots in the other then would it be stretching the point to assume
that
> there must at one time have been cultural and religious links
> between the two societies - ie might this be supportive evidence for the
> claim that the Jews spent a period of time in Egypt?
Todays Jews have absolutely NO connection with the so-called Jews of the
bible. Todays Jews are Arab converts from 65 BC when the Jewish religion was
invented when the so-called "Eccenes" replaced the name of Pharaoh in their
dissembled scriptures with YHWH to hide the fact that they were Egyptian
vassals and to make Pharaoh into their god since when they were discovered
by the Romans they had no religion whatsoever.
The Biblical Jews of the Exodus 1193 BC were the Indo-European Sea Peoples
who consisted of Greeks and Hittites. This is testified to by Manetho,
Cheremon and by the bible own dates. The Exodus occurred 2 generations
before Assur-Risilim was king of Assyria 1150 BC.
Full Chonology below including calculations and statically proof..
http://www.argyros.argyrou.btinternet.co.uk/myths/bible/index.htm
b...@antispam.net
win.server.ntlworld.com>, t...@pennyblack.org.uk says...
> To the Egyptians, there was a
> mystical link between the alphabet and the pantheon - if one language has
> its roots in the other then would it be stretching the point to assume that
> there must at one time have been cultural and religious links
> between the two societies - ie might this be supportive evidence for the
> claim that the Jews spent a period of time in Egypt?
It might be if there were not many other mechanisms, e.g.,
trading, that could easily explain the roots. Or, maybe,
even better, the Egyptians spent a period of time in
Canaan.
Alan McIntire
He was aware of the existence of the Roman alphabet.
As to the Chinese system of writing, you deleted my prior remark,
which was, thank god we don't have to learn thousands of symbols to
read.
Chris Siren
> Oh and before I forget. "Di-wa-na" is not only the root of Diana, but it is
> also the root of the Sumerian goddess Inanna and the Babylonian Annat
> (Di-wa-na-ka). ONLY the GREEK and specifically Linear-B rendering of the
> name gives you the common root of all three goddesses names. Just like Io
> and Luna, Diana, Inanna and Annat were moon goddesses.
>
> Ever wonder why all the names of the Assyro-Babylonian gods can be reduced
> to Greek ? They were all Greek kings and queens.
Corrections:
Anat was the _Canannite_ goddess of war and the hunt. I can see perhaps a
bow/crescent moon association with the moon, but that association was _not_ made
in the surviving Canaanite literature. The Canaanites' chief lunar deity was
Yarikh, who was male. He was associated with his daughters the Kotharat, who
were in turn associated with the crescent and new moon and with conception and
childbirth.
The Babylonians' and Assyrians' lunar deities were Nanna(r)-Sin and his wife
Ningal. These names and deities are an almost direct borrowing from Sumer where
they called the Moon god Nanna and the Moon goddess Ningal.
Inanna does indeed share some properties with Anat and is the Sumerian goddess
of war, as well as of love. She is the daughter of Nanna and Ningal, but aside
from that has no surviving written lunar associations in Sumerian literature.
Rather, her astronomical province, like that of her Babylonian analog Ishtar, is
that of the morning and evening star, that is, the planet Venus.
As to the naming bit, the Greeks and the Romans after them had a habit of
renaming local deities with the names of their own deities who bore some
similarity to them. They were hardly the only cultures to do this - the
Japanese did so with Chinese deities, the Christians combined the legends of
various local deities with those of saints. In some cases there were
pre-existing relationships, but not in all cases and not necessarily to the
depths as might be indicated by the names alone.
Chris Siren
Sumerian Mythology FAQ http://members.bellatlantic.net/~vze33gpz/sumer-faq.html
Assyro-Babylonian Mythology FAQ
http://members.bellatlantic.net/~vze33gpz/assyrbabyl-faq.html
Canaanite/Ugaritic Mythology FAQ
http://members.bellatlantic.net/~vze33gpz/canaanite-faq.html
Chris Siren
> > >Dont be stupid. These images were ART and NOTHING more than mementos of
> > >hunting trips and sexual conquests.
Except that, in the case of C,atal Huyuk, the images were gathered around in a
room with a bull's head, in a layout similar to that of later temples common to
the Ancient Near East, wherin deities like Baal, Marduk, and Mithras were
worshiped and associated with bulls.
> Now ask yourself why the Sumerians and Babylonians worshiped a god called
> Tammuz, which is the Greek word Demos, meaning the people and why Adamos, is
> the GREEK conjugation of Demos to denote One of the people. Your Adam and
> Eve (Wa-na = Io) were infact GREEK Indo-Europeans. The entire religious
> system of Mesopotamia was based upon the memory of an Indo-European
> monarchy.
Perhaps the etymology went the other way around, considering that the Sumerian
Dumuzi is attested to in writing in the mid 4th millenium BCE a good thousand
years or so before Tammuz is written of in the late 3rd millenium BCE, a good
thousand years or so before Greek is written down about 800 years before Hittite
& Hurrian appear in the mid 2nd millenium BCE, which in turn is a good 1000
years or so before either Adonis or Adamos shows up in writing.
Chris Siren http://members.bellatlantic.net/~vze33gpz/
Day Brown
> This alphabet invention has
> occurred only once in human history.
Danny niccoli
Chris Siren <vze3...@verizon.net> wrote in message
news:3C30C3ED...@verizon.net...
> Agamemnon wrote:
>
> > > >Dont be stupid. These images were ART and NOTHING more than mementos
of
> > > >hunting trips and sexual conquests.
>
> Except that, in the case of C,atal Huyuk, the images were gathered around
in a
> room with a bull's head, in a layout similar to that of later temples
common to
> the Ancient Near East, wherin deities like Baal, Marduk, and Mithras were
> worshiped and associated with bulls.
YES thankyou, also note that not forms of sacafice were found in the form
of humans or animals...... not bloody trace, althougth flowers and
other
forms of offereings were!
Katherine Griffis
> >>
> >>Shaturna ruled around 1600 BC, the time of the Hyksos expulsion according to
> >>the El-Armana letters. Later on Akenaton, Nefer-kheferu-re (1350-1334) asks
> >>the Mittani king to send a prince to marry an Egyptian princes for the fist
> >>time in history. But before he can arrive the prince is murdered. This story
> >>is the basis of the Persues myth, where Cepheus (kheferu-re) the Ethiopian
> >>king of Joppa is forced to sacrifice his daughter Andromeda to the sea
> >>monster Cetus (Shaturna).
> >
> >You have the elements jumbled here. It was not Akhenaton who asked
> >that a prince be sent. It seems, based on a cuneiform letter found in
> >the Amarna archives, that the widow of Tutankhamon wrote to the
> >Hittite king asking that he send one of his sons to marry her. Her
> >rationale was that her husband was dead, she had no son, and she found
> >the thought of marrying one of her subjects "distasteful." Most
> >scholars assume this "subject" was Horemheb, (or less likely Ay,) both
> >of whom did take the throne.
> >
> tablet giving the account of the letters from Queen Ankhesenamun and
> the Hittite prince are from the Hittite archives, not the Amarna
> archives. Amarna had, of course, already been abandoned by this time.
>
> Once again, my passion outruns my discipline. I hate when that
> happens! My apologies.
It might interest you to know that Egyptian fragments of the original
Akkadian letter between Suppiluliumas and the Egyptian queen have
survived, and were analyzed by Elmar Edel in 1978.
This was noted in
Murnane, W. 1990. _The Road to Kadesh: A Historical Interpretation of
the Battle Reliefs of King Sety I at Karnak_ (Second Ed., Revised),
SAOC 42 (Chicago:OI/Univ of Chicago).
According to Giles, in his _The Amarna Age:Western Asia_ (BACE 5,
1997:93), Edel seemed convinced by the analyses of all of these
various references that the name "Nibhururiya" referred to Tutankhamun
rather than Akhenaten.
HTH.
Regards --
Katherine Griffis-Greenberg
Member, International Association of Egyptologists
American Research Center in Egypt
University of Alabama at Birmingham
UAB Options/Special Studies
NUBI...@webtv.net
Phonecian alphabet (as in phonetics) came from the Egyptian phonetic
alphabet. The Egyptians had two types of alphabet. A very large and
bulky hieroglyphic alphabet and a phonetic alphabet. The Phonecians
copied the Egyptian phonetic script ( see
http://community.webtv.net/paulnubiaempire "Nubian Civilization Said to
be World's Oldest," also see http://www.cwo.com/~lucumi/runoko.html
The Phonecians are better known as the Canaanites...Sons of Ham. They
were masters of the Sea and worked for the Egyptians in the
Mediterranean and the Nubians in the Red Sea and the Indian Ocean.
Phoenicians also traded with the Nok Civilization of West Africa (3000
B.C. to 400 B.C. and in fact, Hanno, a Carthaginian (ie Phonecian)
salior explained the method in which the people of West Africa traded.
He also witnessed what was a Kwanzaa or Harvest Festival being
celebrated and mentions that in his logs (probably "The Histories," by
Herodotus).'
It is also said that certain scripts in South India and as far as the
Far East are of Phonecian origins. However one thing is certain.
African chroniclers and historians point out that thousands of years
ago, African from the Red Sea port made trips of trade to China, India,
Korea and Japan. In fact, the outrigger canoe is found in many parts of
the coastal part of East Africa where it has been used for thousands of
years. According to I. Raikadroka, Africans were making trade trips to
the Fiji Islands before the Christian period. Chinese writings from the
Chou Period (600 b.c.) document trade between Africa and China. The
former Foreign Minister of Papua New Guinea, Ben Tangghama pointed out
that the Blacks of Melanesia, Papua New Guinea, West Papua, and the rest
of Asia are related to Africans and will always be related to Africans
(see THE BLACK UNTOUCHABLES OF INDIA, by V.T. Rajshekar, Runoko Rashidi,
Y.N. Kly published by www.claritypress.com ) See also the world famous
book, "Susu Economics: The History of Pan-African Trade, Commerce, Money
and Wealth," published by 1stBooks Library, www.1stbooks.com
Here is another shocker. According to African sources, eg. the former
Prime Minister of Senegal, the JAPANESE LANGUAGE IS ALSO OF AFRICAN
ORIGINS...when you look at Japanese words, Japanese place names and
Japanese suffixes and prefixes...there are so many similarities with the
Niger-Congo languages that it is really facinating. Added to that, the
Niger-Congo language family was once the dominant language in the
Sahara, during the "wet" aquatic civilization of ship-building, farming
and settled living, long before the drying of the Sahara and the
migrations of the people to all directions between fifteen thousand
years ago to four thousand years ago. The first migration of Africans
from the Sahara and East Africa began about 100,000 years ago, with the
ancestors of the Tasmanians and Australian Aborigines being the first
people to move to the East from Africa.
Hence, you find people of African Negro origins originally from the
Sahara living in India, South Arabia, Australia, Southern China, the
Philipines, Burma and SE Asia, the mountains of Vietnam and SE Asia, the
northern Philipines Islans, many millions of Blacks in Melanesia, Papua
New Guinea and West Papua and others in the Indian Ocean Islands.
Nubi...@webtv.net
http://community.webtv.net/paulnubiaempire
www.raceandhistory.com
http://www.cwo.com/~lucumi/runoko.html
Hope
>> >> >Venus figures = Pornography.
>> >>
>> >> In your eyes, perhaps. That does not make it so for the entire world.
>> >> The human figure is only obscene if you wish to attach unhealthy and
>> >> harmful sexual or sadomasochistic meaning to it. Humans can make
>> >> *anything* obscene, no matter how innocent.
>> >
>> >When did I say anything about it being obscene.
>>
>> Hm...let's define terms, then. How do you define "pornography?"
>> >
>>
>> >Without someone to give the orders about water use and conservation and
>when
>> >to plant the crops large scale agriculture would have been impossible.
>> >Without someone who had a large enough army to fend of bandits, farming
>of
>> >animals would have been futile.
>>
>> Which addresses the question of why the "bosses" would have had to be
>> foreigners not at all. What a surprise.
And this one...
>
>> >Vowels were NEVER present in the original script.
>>
>> Which is why *you* cannot be certain the "or" became "ura."
>
>WRONG. Which is why I can be 100% certain that the "R" was pronounced with
>"or" or "ura" or in any other combination.
So it could not possibly have been "ar" or "ir" or "ieru" or any other
vowel combination? Fascinating! I wonder, then, why there are still so
many variant spellings of Egyptian names?
>
>> >Mittani was an Egyptian Vassal from the time the Hyksos were expelled.
>>
>> How does this prove that the Hittites and Mittanians were ruled by one
>> king? And I fail to see Set's name in your list...unless you want to
>> pick and name and say, "This, of course, is the same person as Set."
>
>Are you stupid or what.
>
Yes, obviously, in spite of graduating at the top of my class at
university, I am too stupid to follow *your* reasoning. I doubt I will
lose much sleep over that, though.
>Shuttarna I, Shuttarna II, Shuttarna III, Shattuara I, Shattuara II.
>
>There is is FIVE times !!!!.
So Set=Shuttanrna, and also Shattuara? Gee, it makes one wonder how
anyone ever kept up with who they were dealing with without a program!
By the way, which of these many manifestations was actually the source
of the Set legend? Or was that a compilation, like the Greatest Hits
things today?
>
>Shuttarna III would have ruled at the same time as Akenathon making him the
>best possible candidate for Cetus, the sea monster killed by Perseus.
Hm...kings who morph into sea monsters. And I thought the Japanese
invented that one!
>
>Shuttarna I ruled at the time of the Hyksos expulsion which is the origin of
>the Myth about the death and resurrection of Osiris, which is almost
>entirely down to Plutarch.
So you're saying there was no Osiris myth before the Hyksos? Wow. And
what does "which is almost entirely down to Plutarch" mean? Did you
mistype, or is this yet one more mystery I am synaptically unable to
process?
>
>> >According to Manetho Acenchres was Tutankhamons sister PERIOD.
>>
<snipping king's list, etc.>
>
>See previous posts. All I need to show to substantiate my argument is that
>Ankhesenamen is credited as the daughter of Akenathon and that she was given
>away to a foreign prince. NOONE is disputing either of these facts.
WRONG. I myself have disputed them more than once, and others have
disputed them as well. But you seem to have a talent for ignoring
contrary evidence. Oh well. Turn about's fair play.
>They are
>all recorded.
Yes, so is everything in the Bible. Does that make it irrefutable
fact?
> Who her brother was is ireelvent.
Then why did *you* bring it up??
>
>> >
>> >The Greek myth states that Andromeda was Cepheus daughter and Acenchres
>was
>> >the daughter of kheferu-re i.e. Cepheus. Both their mothers were vain.
>Both
>> >were to be given away as sacrificed. And both had their future husbands
>> >murdered. How do you know that Akhenaton didnt give his daughter away to
>> >Perseus.
>>
>> Typical. "Can you prove that flying saucers *don't* exist?" Tsk, tsk.
>>
>> Which daughter are we speaking of now? If we're still discussing the
>> widow of Tutankamon, it would have been rather difficult for Akhenaton
>> to give her away, unless contrary to all evidence and custom he was
>> still alive and had any say in the matter, even though he was
>> obviously no longer Pharoah. Your theory has more twists than a
>> pretzle.
>
>Cepheus was the Ethiopian king of Joppa. Akhenaton does not need to be
>ruling over Egypt for the myth to hold true. The fact that he had a daughter
>that was given away is all that is required to build the myth on.
>
Yes, and if only you *could* prove that he had a daughter that was
given away! But you do not seem to need even proof of that to build
*your* myth on.
You asked how I know that Akhenaton didn't give his daughter away, as
if that were an important point. I answered...and suddenly that point
is irrelevant. Fah!
>> >>
>> >> What are you babbling about? There is no historical evidence Horemheb
>> >> had a son.
>> >
>> >Because he was murdered by Herakles !
>>
>> Where is your proof?? Why is there no evidence of a son in Horemheb's
>> tomb or no word of him in any of the contemporary records? Why, with
>> so much evidence of the other individuals involved, is there not a
>> single written word about a son, nor a single ushabti, etc.
>
>IDOT. Who do you think Ramses I was. All the contemporary record show that
>he was adopted by Horemheb and he only reigned a couple of years.
Yes, and the evidence also indicates that he only reigned a couple of
years because he was OLD when he took the throne, being a contemporary
of Horemheb who came up through the military ranks with him. *That's*
who I think he was. He was appointed Horemheb's successor, which may
have involved a ritual "adoption." Rather than prove Horemheb had a
son, that would indicate Horemheb had no son of his body to pass the
throne to.
I suppose it's possible Horemheb could have been murdered by someone
who waited around a couple of years and then also knocked Rameses off.
Why not, with all the theories that Akhenaton, Smenkara, Tutankamon,
and a host of other players might have been murdered. Then again,
maybe no one was. You cannot prove they were, I can't prove they
weren't.
By the way, what is an IDOT? Is it anything like a period in an EMAIL?
>
>FOOL
What, no extraneous exclamation marks? How insulting!
>
>> >
>> >POPPYCOCK. The Bible state that Josephs Egyptian name was
>Psom-thom-fanich
>> >which is Tut-anch-amon.
>>
>> You are unbelievable! Quote for me the chapter and verse that says,
>> "Joseph's Egyptian name was Psom-thom-fanich, which is Tut-anch-amon."
>
>Genesis 41:45 And Pharao called the name of Joseph, Psonthomphanech; and he
>gave him Aseneth, the daughter of Petephres, priest of Heliopolis, to wife.
Genesis (KJV--other translations basically identical)
41:45
And Pharaoh called Joseph's name Zaphnathpaaneah; and he gave him to
wife Asenath the daughter of Potipherah priest of On [Heliopolis being
the Greek name]. And Joseph went out over all the land of Egypt.
41:46
And Joseph was thirty years old when he stood before Pharaoh king of
Egypt. And Joseph went out from the presence of Pharaoh, and went
throughout all the land of Egypt.
******************
Rather difficult for Tutankhamon to be Joseph, unless they had a very
different way of figuring ages. And which Pharaoh would he have been
standing before as vizier?
And I don't see anything in those verses about any version of Joseph's
Egyptian name translating to Tutankhamon. The two names have very
different meanings. Joseph also had two sons. Etc, etc.
>
>Even the name Josephs wife corresponds to that of Tutanchamons wife
>Acenchres Ankhesenamen.
So Potipherah = Akhenaton, priest of On? And Asenath = his daughter,
mother of Joseph's two sons? *rubbing my temples*
I need some Motrin.
>
>> >
>> >Its substantiates my argument you IGNORAMUS. You are the one who asked me
>> >for evidence but you don't want to even look at it.
>> >
>> I asked for evidence pertaining to the points under discussion. You
>> provided a tale about how high the Nile has to rise in order to
>> overflow the land. How is that relevant? Does it prove that foreigners
>> needed to come in and take over and regulate crops and planting? Does
>> it prove in which reign Joseph served? Does it prove your theory of
>> interchangeable names? Does it prove that no culture ever worshiped
>> goddesses? What does it have to do with anything?
>
>CRETIN
What an interesting choice of an insult for someone so enamoured of
the Greeks! *lol* Please call me MINOAN from now on. *sniff*
> I gave you the address of my web page which explains everything in
>full but it is obvious that you have not even read it.
You are correct. You have said nothing that has inspired me to think
wading through it would provide me with any hard facts or solid
evidence. As I said to another poster, I can't manage to get all the
way through Moses: Pharaoh of Egypt, either. I prefer my Biblical
fiction in movie form, with popcorn and a dramatic musical score.
>Until you have read
>every single page and followed my argument properly...
That will most like be just prior to the mythological event known as
hell freezing over.
>there is nothing to discuss with you.
> I am not going to keep repeating myself.
Hallelujah! Can I get an "amen"?
>
>>
>> And by the way, being called an IGNORAMUS by you is quite a
>> compliment. I would begin to worry if *you* complimented my
>> intelligence.
>
>FOOL
That, too. Thank you. You're too kind.
>
>that
>> >this famine took place in the reign of Horemheb.
>>
>> Again, show me the chapter and verse in this book of CONCOTED FICTION
>> that says this.
>
>See the account of Lysimachus
I asked for proof of your assertion that the Bible provided this
information. Lysimachus is not a book of the Bible.
MINOAN!
>
>> >Go and take a look at the pictures of her in Akenatos tomb. It is an
>> >accepted FACT that Nefertiti was vain.
>>
>> What?? You are able to deduce character traits such as vanity from
>> her pictures in his tomb?
>
>From the fact that the pictures and all mention of her was DEFACED from
>virtually every monument.
My dear Aggie, that does not prove she was vain. It proves she was
probably the target of a ritual "damnation," an attempt to take her
immortality away by erasing evidence of her existence. Akhenaton tried
to do the same thing by ordering the names of the god erased, even in
his father's name. Do you think he did that because he thought the
gods were vain?
And unless you were speaking of just that one tomb, you overstated the
facts by half when you said the defaced "virtually every monument."
Look through any book on Akhenaton's reign, and you will see dozens of
*undefaced* representations of Nefertiti. If the damage was restricted
to one tomb, that would seem to indicate something on a more personal
scale. And when did the destruction occur? That's an important clue as
to the purpose.
Oh, never mind. Silly me. You will come up with some "proof" that it
was done on a certain date not corroborated by any text by reputable
Egyptologists, which to your mind will be further "proof" that she was
in your sea monster story.
>
>> >IGNORANT BRAINWASHED FOOL...
>You are more concerned with Christian faith than the fact that it was based
>on an Egyptian Myth which I have exposed for all to see, except the
>fanatical bigots.
No, I am most emphatically not more concerned with that. You have not
asked me what I believe about the Christian faith or its ties to
Egyptian myth. You are much too eager to stereotype me, based on the
fact that I'm not buying what *you* are selling either. And I find
that quite offensive.
I am very well versed in Christian fundamental beliefs because I grew
up in the shadow of Oral Roberts and his vision of an extortionary 900
ft tall Jesus, who threatened to "take Oral home" if his followers did
not cough up something like 23 or 43 million dollars. My conclusion on
the matter, reached at a young age? "Gimme a break."
My ex-father-in-law was a Baptist minister. I was a huge thorn in his
flesh with my "unbecoming" propensity for questioning his
interpretation of the Bible and not showing proper female respect for
our family patriarch. He no doubt still comforts himself with visions
of me crying for forgiveness from the depths of the hell I refused to
believe in.
I do have definite spiritual beliefs, but they are far from the
one-size-fits-all Christian faith you seem so eager to ascribe to me.
In fact, most people would not see them as Christian at all.
>You just cannot accept that the bible is a pack of lies and the Greek myths
>are true and that all the gods were peoples ancetors.
I do so wish you would make up your mind whether the Bible is
CONCOCTED FICTION, historical fiction containing a goodly amount of
fact (that being the parts you decide support your theories) or "a
pack of lies." Then decide whether, as you said in your last post, the
Judeo-Christina myth is " a fictitious ancestor myth NO DIFFERENT [my
emphaisis] from those of the Greek," or whether, as you said in this
post, it is a pack of lies, while "the Greek myths are true."
Do you even really know what you believe, or do you shed your skin
with each new day and wiggle through whatever new addition you have
made to your convoluted maze?
> You want to believe in
>a false biblical god that is not even your own ancestor but a foreigner and
>the personification of the Pharaohs of Egypt who was invented in 65 BC.
Actually, the God I believe in is most definitely my ancestor, insofar
as I believe in the interconnectedness of all life and the fabric of
the universe, held together by an energy that changes forms but is not
destroyed. But I'm quite sure you could not possibly care less about
my beliefs, unless they parrot yours.
I hate to break it to you, but one does not have to be a fanatical
bigot of *any* kind to conclude that you are full of hot air. Only
your own bigotry prevents you from realizing that.
Perhaps you should consider re-"inventing" *yourself* so that the
object of your worship has a bit more mass appeal. So far you are only
a legend in your own mind.
>
Hope
Yes, indeed this most certainly *does* interest me! Thank you for
providing the references!
I suspect my housecleaning is going to remain on the back burner for
yet another while...*G*
Christopher Forbes
Someone, Agamemnon, I think, posted as follows:
The Gods of the Romans and Greeks were their
own ancestors. The rituals may have been borrowed from the Tammuz cult like
ALL religions but the Gods were not borrowed. Even the Cybele cult was an
ancestor cult since the Romans originated from Troy.
Isn't it amazing what people know? Their own ancestors? Did you know that
this theory was developed c. 300 by Euhemerus of Messene? But I don't think
even HE knew that "ALL religions" (including chinese ones?) were borrowed
from the Tammuz cult. What about Sumerian and Egyptian ones, before Tammuz
was even thought of? And as for the Romans originating from Troy, do you
mean you read Vergil as history? More and more fascinating. Do you also know
the theory was given its classical form by Dionysius of Halicarnassus,
writing c. 30 BC?
Let me ask you a really simple question: do you even know how to
check my assertions of fact about Euhemerus and Dionysius? They're true: but
can you check whether they are? And if you can't: what competence in this
field can you really claim?
Agamemnon
>
> >> >> >Venus figures = Pornography.
> >> >>
> >> >> In your eyes, perhaps. That does not make it so for the entire
world.
> >> >> The human figure is only obscene if you wish to attach unhealthy and
> >> >> harmful sexual or sadomasochistic meaning to it. Humans can make
> >> >> *anything* obscene, no matter how innocent.
> >> >
> >> >When did I say anything about it being obscene.
> >>
> >> Hm...let's define terms, then. How do you define "pornography?"
> >> >
> Okay, then, apparently you've decided to skip this one.
I'll send you a nice video, will that satisfy you. FOOL.
> >>
>
> >> >Without someone to give the orders about water use and conservation
and
> >when
> >> >to plant the crops large scale agriculture would have been impossible.
> >> >Without someone who had a large enough army to fend of bandits,
farming
> >of
> >> >animals would have been futile.
> >>
> >> Which addresses the question of why the "bosses" would have had to be
> >> foreigners not at all. What a surprise.
>
> And this one...
The bosses you CRETIN are the one who brought the knowledge of diverting
rivers, and irrigating the land with them. The bosses you CRETIN are the
ones you built the cities while the ignorant peasants lived in mud huts.
Have you not even read Pausanius book on Bootia ?
> >
> >> >Vowels were NEVER present in the original script.
> >>
> >> Which is why *you* cannot be certain the "or" became "ura."
> >
> >WRONG. Which is why I can be 100% certain that the "R" was pronounced
with
> >"or" or "ura" or in any other combination.
>
> So it could not possibly have been "ar" or "ir" or "ieru" or any other
> vowel combination? Fascinating! I wonder, then, why there are still so
> many variant spellings of Egyptian names?
FOOL. The fact that no vowels are included in the spelling means that ANY
vowel consonant combination was permitted.
In American English "a" is pronounced "e" so "Cat" would be pronounced
"Ket".
In Cockney English "a" is pronounced "i" so "Day" would be pronounced "Die".
Depending on the region where one came from the same words would have been
pronounced differently and also carried different conjugations.
> >
> >> >Mittani was an Egyptian Vassal from the time the Hyksos were expelled.
> >>
> >> How does this prove that the Hittites and Mittanians were ruled by one
> >> king? And I fail to see Set's name in your list...unless you want to
> >> pick and name and say, "This, of course, is the same person as Set."
> >
> >Are you stupid or what.
> >
> Yes, obviously, in spite of graduating at the top of my class at
> university, I am too stupid to follow *your* reasoning. I doubt I will
> lose much sleep over that, though.
Dont make me laugh. What did you study for. The McDonalds diploma in Retail
Sciences some other joke subject.
>
> >Shuttarna I, Shuttarna II, Shuttarna III, Shattuara I, Shattuara II.
> >
> >There is is FIVE times !!!!.
>
> So Set=Shuttanrna, and also Shattuara? Gee, it makes one wonder how
Yes you FOOL !
Have you ever studied Linguistics
> anyone ever kept up with who they were dealing with without a program!
> By the way, which of these many manifestations was actually the source
> of the Set legend? Or was that a compilation, like the Greatest Hits
> things today?
Shuttarna I
> >
> >Shuttarna III would have ruled at the same time as Akenathon making him
the
> >best possible candidate for Cetus, the sea monster killed by Perseus.
>
> Hm...kings who morph into sea monsters. And I thought the Japanese
> invented that one!
FOOL. I already told you the Greek word for Trireme "Triakodoron" was
corrupted into Dragon. To the ancient Greeks who wrote the text a Dragon WAS
as Trireme in the same was an "Auto" is an "Automobile".
> >
> >Shuttarna I ruled at the time of the Hyksos expulsion which is the origin
of
> >the Myth about the death and resurrection of Osiris, which is almost
> >entirely down to Plutarch.
>
> So you're saying there was no Osiris myth before the Hyksos? Wow. And
> what does "which is almost entirely down to Plutarch" mean? Did you
> mistype, or is this yet one more mystery I am synaptically unable to
> process?
Plutarch is the primary source of the Osiris myth. You prove you utter
ignorance by not knowing this.
> >
> >> >According to Manetho Acenchres was Tutankhamons sister PERIOD.
> >>
> <snipping king's list, etc.>
>
> >
> >See previous posts. All I need to show to substantiate my argument is
that
> >Ankhesenamen is credited as the daughter of Akenathon and that she was
given
> >away to a foreign prince. NOONE is disputing either of these facts.
>
> WRONG. I myself have disputed them more than once, and others have
> disputed them as well. But you seem to have a talent for ignoring
> contrary evidence. Oh well. Turn about's fair play.
You have disputed NOTHING. Where is you evidence that Ankhesenamen was not
Akenathons daughter ? The Egyptian and Hittite records say she was.
>
> >They are
> >all recorded.
>
> Yes, so is everything in the Bible. Does that make it irrefutable
> fact?
>
> > Who her brother was is ireelvent.
>
> Then why did *you* bring it up??
You brought Tutanchamon up. I only brought up Akenaton and his daughter and
their relation to the Perseus myth.
> >
> >> >
> >> >The Greek myth states that Andromeda was Cepheus daughter and
Acenchres
> >was
> >> >the daughter of kheferu-re i.e. Cepheus. Both their mothers were vain.
> >Both
> >> >were to be given away as sacrificed. And both had their future
husbands
> >> >murdered. How do you know that Akhenaton didnt give his daughter away
to
> >> >Perseus.
> >>
> >> Typical. "Can you prove that flying saucers *don't* exist?" Tsk, tsk.
> >>
> >> Which daughter are we speaking of now? If we're still discussing the
> >> widow of Tutankamon, it would have been rather difficult for Akhenaton
> >> to give her away, unless contrary to all evidence and custom he was
> >> still alive and had any say in the matter, even though he was
> >> obviously no longer Pharoah. Your theory has more twists than a
> >> pretzle.
> >
> >Cepheus was the Ethiopian king of Joppa. Akhenaton does not need to be
> >ruling over Egypt for the myth to hold true. The fact that he had a
daughter
> >that was given away is all that is required to build the myth on.
> >
> Yes, and if only you *could* prove that he had a daughter that was
> given away! But you do not seem to need even proof of that to build
> *your* myth on.
FOOL. The Egyptian and Hittite records say he had a daugheter. Encyclopaedia
Britannica says he had a daughter that was given away in marriage and names
her.
> >
> >> >
> >> >POPPYCOCK. The Bible state that Josephs Egyptian name was
> >Psom-thom-fanich
> >> >which is Tut-anch-amon.
> >>
> >> You are unbelievable! Quote for me the chapter and verse that says,
> >> "Joseph's Egyptian name was Psom-thom-fanich, which is Tut-anch-amon."
> >
> >Genesis 41:45 And Pharao called the name of Joseph, Psonthomphanech; and
he
> >gave him Aseneth, the daughter of Petephres, priest of Heliopolis, to
wife.
>
> Genesis (KJV--other translations basically identical)
>
> 41:45
> And Pharaoh called Joseph's name Zaphnathpaaneah; and he gave him to
> wife Asenath the daughter of Potipherah priest of On [Heliopolis being
> the Greek name]. And Joseph went out over all the land of Egypt.
>
> 41:46
> And Joseph was thirty years old when he stood before Pharaoh king of
> Egypt. And Joseph went out from the presence of Pharaoh, and went
> throughout all the land of Egypt.
>
> ******************
>
> Rather difficult for Tutankhamon to be Joseph, unless they had a very
> different way of figuring ages. And which Pharaoh would he have been
> standing before as vizier?
Still you have not even bothered to read the web page I gave you. READ IT
YOU IMBECILE. Joseph was 15 years old when he was made Chancellor, the same
age as Tutanchamon. ALL the years given in the bible are given as FRACTIONS
because it was written by the GREEKS. If have proven IRREFUTABLY that this
was the case by 3 independent means.
People don't live 180 years or father children at the age of 100. The ages
of the patriarchs from Abraham to Joshua are all given in Equinoctial Years
and the bible leaves them as top heavy fractrions. They should all be halves
but the people who copied the text left out the denominator.
See my web page for the complete statistical and mathematical analysis.
Don't even bother replying until you have read each and every page. You cant
refute it because it would be like trying to prove that 1 plus 1 does not
equal 2.
http://www.argyros.argyrou.btinternet.co.uk/myths/bible/index.htm
>
> And I don't see anything in those verses about any version of Joseph's
> Egyptian name translating to Tutankhamon. The two names have very
> different meanings. Joseph also had two sons. Etc, etc.
>
> >
> >Even the name Josephs wife corresponds to that of Tutanchamons wife
> >Acenchres Ankhesenamen.
>
> So Potipherah = Akhenaton, priest of On? And Asenath = his daughter,
> mother of Joseph's two sons? *rubbing my temples*
Correct. "On" taken to mean Heliopolis the "city of the sun" could also be
the city of Aken-aton since Aton also means "the sun" and this was the
primary place of the worship of Aton in Akenaton and Tutanchamons time.
Potipherah is probably a corruption of Nefer-kheferu-re
Po-ti-pher-ah = Fer-khe-feru-re
>
> > I gave you the address of my web page which explains everything in
> >full but it is obvious that you have not even read it.
>
> You are correct. You have said nothing that has inspired me to think
> wading through it would provide me with any hard facts or solid
> evidence. As I said to another poster, I can't manage to get all the
> way through Moses: Pharaoh of Egypt, either. I prefer my Biblical
> fiction in movie form, with popcorn and a dramatic musical score.
IDIOT. If you cannot even be bother to read through my scientific proof then
you have NO RIGHT to question them. You are nothing more than a BIGOT.
>
> >Until you have read
> >every single page and followed my argument properly...
>
> That will most like be just prior to the mythological event known as
> hell freezing over.
>
>
> >there is nothing to discuss with you.
> > I am not going to keep repeating myself.
>
> Hallelujah! Can I get an "amen"?
> >
> >>
> >> And by the way, being called an IGNORAMUS by you is quite a
> >> compliment. I would begin to worry if *you* complimented my
> >> intelligence.
> >
> >FOOL
>
> That, too. Thank you. You're too kind.
> >
>
> >that
> >> >this famine took place in the reign of Horemheb.
> >>
> >> Again, show me the chapter and verse in this book of CONCOTED FICTION
> >> that says this.
> >
> >See the account of Lysimachus
>
> I asked for proof of your assertion that the Bible provided this
> information. Lysimachus is not a book of the Bible.
> MINOAN!
CRETIN. I gave you proof but you openly admit that you cannot even be
bothered to read it. YOU ARE A JOKE.
http://www.argyros.argyrou.btinternet.co.uk/myths/bible/index.htm
You have LOST the argument because you cannot challenge the undeniable
facts.
> >
>
> >> >Go and take a look at the pictures of her in Akenatos tomb. It is an
> >> >accepted FACT that Nefertiti was vain.
> >>
> >> What?? You are able to deduce character traits such as vanity from
> >> her pictures in his tomb?
> >
> >From the fact that the pictures and all mention of her was DEFACED from
> >virtually every monument.
>
> My dear Aggie, that does not prove she was vain. It proves she was
> probably the target of a ritual "damnation," an attempt to take her
> immortality away by erasing evidence of her existence. Akhenaton tried
> to do the same thing by ordering the names of the god erased, even in
> his father's name. Do you think he did that because he thought the
> gods were vain?
>
> And unless you were speaking of just that one tomb, you overstated the
> facts by half when you said the defaced "virtually every monument."
> Look through any book on Akhenaton's reign, and you will see dozens of
> *undefaced* representations of Nefertiti. If the damage was restricted
> to one tomb, that would seem to indicate something on a more personal
> scale. And when did the destruction occur? That's an important clue as
> to the purpose.
>
> Oh, never mind. Silly me. You will come up with some "proof" that it
> was done on a certain date not corroborated by any text by reputable
> Egyptologists, which to your mind will be further "proof" that she was
> in your sea monster story.
You are talking out of your ASSHOLE. You have not even read a word of my
proof so how the hell can you know what it does or does not mention. Ether
refute the FACTS I have given or shut up.
http://www.argyros.argyrou.btinternet.co.uk/myths/bible/index.htm
Agamemnon
>
> > > >Dont be stupid. These images were ART and NOTHING more than mementos
of
> > > >hunting trips and sexual conquests.
>
> Except that, in the case of C,atal Huyuk, the images were gathered around
in a
> room with a bull's head, in a layout similar to that of later temples
common to
> the Ancient Near East, wherin deities like Baal, Marduk, and Mithras were
> worshiped and associated with bulls.
Marduk was never worshiped in association with Bulls. According to Herodotus
the temples of Marduk = Melquart = Herakels were devoid of any imagery
except 2 ornately decorated pillars. They were of the same model as the
so-called "temple of Solomon".
This so-called association with Bull worship is a figment of Christian
bigotry. Bulls were certainly scarified but this was done outside of the
temple.
Besides which how do you know that the room in question wasn't a Mausoleum
to a dead king ?
>
> > Now ask yourself why the Sumerians and Babylonians worshiped a god
called
> > Tammuz, which is the Greek word Demos, meaning the people and why
Adamos, is
> > the GREEK conjugation of Demos to denote One of the people. Your Adam
and
> > Eve (Wa-na = Io) were infact GREEK Indo-Europeans. The entire religious
> > system of Mesopotamia was based upon the memory of an Indo-European
> > monarchy.
>
> Perhaps the etymology went the other way around, considering that the
Sumerian
Impossible. Wa-na-ka is the Proto-Indo-European word for "one" and the
phased "Di-wa-na-ka-da-ma-(s)" means absolute nothing in non-Inodo-European
languags.
The title Di-wa-na-ka-da-ma-(s) or Di-wa-na-ka-le-u-(s) ie. "Deos Anax
Demos" and "Deos Anax Laos" continued to be used through Greek history in
the form of Deukalion, Cadmus, Herekles, Anaxander, Anaxsileus, and
Alexander.
> Dumuzi is attested to in writing in the mid 4th millenium BCE a good
thousand
> years or so before Tammuz is written of in the late 3rd millenium BCE, a
good
Dumuzi is a Greek diminutive conjugation of Tammuz.
Agamemnon
"Christopher Forbes" <cfo...@laurel.ocs.mq.edu.au> wrote in message
news:a0s13e$3...@laurel.ocs.mq.edu.au...
>
> Someone, Agamemnon, I think, posted as follows:
>
> The Gods of the Romans and Greeks were their
> own ancestors. The rituals may have been borrowed from the Tammuz cult
like
> ALL religions but the Gods were not borrowed. Even the Cybele cult was an
> ancestor cult since the Romans originated from Troy.
>
> Isn't it amazing what people know? Their own ancestors? Did you know that
> this theory was developed c. 300 by Euhemerus of Messene? But I don't
think
> even HE knew that "ALL religions" (including chinese ones?) were borrowed
> from the Tammuz cult. What about Sumerian and Egyptian ones, before Tammuz
> was even thought of? And as for the Romans originating from Troy, do you
The Tammuz cult dates back to before there were Egyptians living in Egypt.
Since it as river cult it is as old as the cultivation of the land
surrounding the Euphrates. Even the river Thames is named after Tammuz, as
is the Danube, ie. EriDanus and the Rhone/Rhine or RoDanus.
> mean you read Vergil as history? More and more fascinating. Do you also
know
> the theory was given its classical form by Dionysius of Halicarnassus,
> writing c. 30 BC?
> Let me ask you a really simple question: do you even know how to
> check my assertions of fact about Euhemerus and Dionysius? They're true:
but
Are you trying to insinuate that they were wrong ?
> can you check whether they are? And if you can't: what competence in this
> field can you really claim?
You cant see the wood for the trees.
steve
Its an example of linear banded pottery decoration
http://www.omniglot.com/writing/vinca.htm
but
http://www.emis.de/monographs/jablan/
I am aware that some in this group may think that every line,
scratch and hatch they encounter in archaeology is some form of ogham...
For those believers who are certain every petroglyph is indicitive
of an alphabet with a set of phonemes readable as morphemes, maybe
its time to consider an alternative view.
Unbelievable as it may sound, some decorations and ornaments
found on pieces of cracked pottery were put there simply for
the purpose of making a piece of pottery look attractive to
its owner.
steve
Danny niccoli
Katherine Griffis <egy...@griffis-consulting.com> wrote in message
news:a94bfc19.01123...@posting.google.com...
Agreed, I think HOPE's major point is that aggy tends to run away from
he/she self and get to carried away.
I believe the letter was written under the name of Dahamunzu........
referring
to her recently dead husband Niphururiya........ and it seems to suggest
that
Ankhesenamun is the most likely candidate.......... doesn't change things
those, aggy did get the facts partly wrong!
and I simply love the way he/she says this name is this....... and this is
that
when he/she has no cause to!
Danny niccoli
> > >> >
> > >> >When did I say anything about it being obscene.
> > >>
> > >> Hm...let's define terms, then. How do you define "pornography?"
> > >> >
> > Okay, then, apparently you've decided to skip this one.
>
> I'll send you a nice video, will that satisfy you. FOOL.
nah a DVD better quality.
[ deleted ]
> > >
> > >> >Vowels were NEVER present in the original script.
> > >>
> > >> Which is why *you* cannot be certain the "or" became "ura."
> > >
> > >WRONG. Which is why I can be 100% certain that the "R" was pronounced
> with
> > >"or" or "ura" or in any other combination.
> >
> > So it could not possibly have been "ar" or "ir" or "ieru" or any other
> > vowel combination? Fascinating! I wonder, then, why there are still so
> > many variant spellings of Egyptian names?
>
> FOOL. The fact that no vowels are included in the spelling means that ANY
> vowel consonant combination was permitted.
can aggy follow people??? ........ the question dawns!!
I think HOPE is actually saying that it does accur you fool!!!..... the
question
......"or any other vowel combination?...." is basicly a retorical!!!
which brings the question, does aggie know logic! ........
hope ask aggie, if he/she has ever came across sarcasm to?
> In American English "a" is pronounced "e" so "Cat" would be pronounced
> "Ket".
>
> In Cockney English "a" is pronounced "i" so "Day" would be pronounced
"Die".
>
> Depending on the region where one came from the same words would have been
> pronounced differently and also carried different conjugations.
~ the point is that dispite, many different names and spellings...... from
that
new gods and goddess appear, (.... from a singluar deity.)
ie
Horus - The sky-god was the ruler of the day. The many forms
of Horus are; Re-Harakhti, Harsiesis, Haroeris, Harendotes, Khenti-irti,
Khentekhtay (the crocodile-god), and Harmakhis, which is Horus on the
horizons, in which the Sphinx of Giza is considered to be his aspect.
and after time....... in some cases the link is forgeten or not learned
and bob's your uncle..... when the greeks come...... on look 2,
3 , 4 new gods etc.
> > >
> > >> >Mittani was an Egyptian Vassal from the time the Hyksos were
expelled.
> > >>
> > >> How does this prove that the Hittites and Mittanians were ruled by
one
> > >> king? And I fail to see Set's name in your list...unless you want to
> > >> pick and name and say, "This, of course, is the same person as Set."
> > >
> > >Are you stupid or what.
> > >
> > Yes, obviously, in spite of graduating at the top of my class at
> > university, I am too stupid to follow *your* reasoning. I doubt I will
> > lose much sleep over that, though.
>
> Dont make me laugh. What did you study for. The McDonalds diploma in
Retail
> Sciences some other joke subject.
McD's does a course at uni ???????
> >
> > >Shuttarna I, Shuttarna II, Shuttarna III, Shattuara I, Shattuara II.
> > >
> > >There is is FIVE times !!!!.
> >
> > So Set=Shuttanrna, and also Shattuara? Gee, it makes one wonder how
>
> Yes you FOOL !
>
> Have you ever studied Linguistics
HA HA HA ...... you know the more you go back in time, the less
kings and queens there were , and people, so basicaly you run out
of rope.
and like I said religions...... are linked, from culture to culture by the
most part, and tend to rip off aspects of each other
> > anyone ever kept up with who they were dealing with without a program!
> > By the way, which of these many manifestations was actually the source
> > of the Set legend? Or was that a compilation, like the Greatest Hits
> > things today?
>
> Shuttarna I
>
> > >
> > >Shuttarna III would have ruled at the same time as Akenathon making him
> the
> > >best possible candidate for Cetus, the sea monster killed by Perseus.
> >
> > Hm...kings who morph into sea monsters. And I thought the Japanese
> > invented that one!
>
> FOOL. I already told you the Greek word for Trireme "Triakodoron" was
> corrupted into Dragon. To the ancient Greeks who wrote the text a Dragon
WAS
> as Trireme in the same was an "Auto" is an "Automobile".
So this means BY ITSELF jot all....... words dont hang around by them
selfs they have context!!!!
> > >Shuttarna I ruled at the time of the Hyksos expulsion which is the
origin
> of
> > >the Myth about the death and resurrection of Osiris, which is almost
> > >entirely down to Plutarch.
> >
> > So you're saying there was no Osiris myth before the Hyksos? Wow. And
> > what does "which is almost entirely down to Plutarch" mean? Did you
> > mistype, or is this yet one more mystery I am synaptically unable to
> > process?
>
> Plutarch is the primary source of the Osiris myth. You prove you utter
> ignorance by not knowing this.
THE question wrote to you was "So you're saying there was no Osiris
myth before the Hyksos?" NOT what is the POSSIBLE origin of
plutarch!! ( for example ).
thats got to be anther aggie classic :)
> > >
> > >> >According to Manetho Acenchres was Tutankhamons sister PERIOD.
> > >>
> > <snipping king's list, etc.>
> >
> > >
> > >See previous posts. All I need to show to substantiate my argument is
> that
> > >Ankhesenamen is credited as the daughter of Akenathon and that she was
> given
> > >away to a foreign prince. NOONE is disputing either of these facts.
> >
> > WRONG. I myself have disputed them more than once, and others have
> > disputed them as well. But you seem to have a talent for ignoring
> > contrary evidence. Oh well. Turn about's fair play.
>
> You have disputed NOTHING. Where is you evidence that Ankhesenamen was not
> Akenathons daughter ? The Egyptian and Hittite records say she was.
aggie...... you know this tiny detail science........ IF a idea cant be
"disproven" or proven it doesnt mean that anther idea, is automaticaly
the defualt answer
odd that hope said "Yes, and if only you *could* prove that he had a
daughter
that was given away!" .............. thats nothing to do with if X has
a daughter
or NOT ........... DIPPY
AGGIE ........... YOU IN NEED OF READING UP ON THINGS LIKE
KANT....... AND OTHER PHLOSOPHIES.......... AND LEARN FROM
THEM.
[ DELETED ]
> > ******************
> >
> > Rather difficult for Tutankhamon to be Joseph, unless they had a very
> > different way of figuring ages. And which Pharaoh would he have been
> > standing before as vizier?
>
> Still you have not even bothered to read the web page I gave you. READ IT
> YOU IMBECILE. Joseph was 15 years old when he was made Chancellor, the
same
> age as Tutanchamon. ALL the years given in the bible are given as
FRACTIONS
> because it was written by the GREEKS. If have proven IRREFUTABLY that this
> was the case by 3 independent means.
>
> People don't live 180 years or father children at the age of 100. The ages
> of the patriarchs from Abraham to Joshua are all given in Equinoctial
Years
> and the bible leaves them as top heavy fractrions. They should all be
halves
> but the people who copied the text left out the denominator.
>
> See my web page for the complete statistical and mathematical analysis.
> Don't even bother replying until you have read each and every page. You
cant
> refute it because it would be like trying to prove that 1 plus 1 does not
> equal 2.
LOL ....... I ANT EVEN GONA START ON HOW LOGICAL PROOFS
HAVE FLAWS
> http://www.argyros.argyrou.btinternet.co.uk/myths/bible/index.htm
>
> >
> > And I don't see anything in those verses about any version of Joseph's
> > Egyptian name translating to Tutankhamon. The two names have very
> > different meanings. Joseph also had two sons. Etc, etc.
> >
> > >
> > >Even the name Josephs wife corresponds to that of Tutanchamons wife
> > >Acenchres Ankhesenamen.
> >
> > So Potipherah = Akhenaton, priest of On? And Asenath = his daughter,
> > mother of Joseph's two sons? *rubbing my temples*
>
> Correct. "On" taken to mean Heliopolis the "city of the sun" could also be
> the city of Aken-aton since Aton also means "the sun" and this was the
> primary place of the worship of Aton in Akenaton and Tutanchamons time.
>
> Potipherah is probably a corruption of Nefer-kheferu-re
>
> Po-ti-pher-ah = Fer-khe-feru-re
>
>
> >
> > > I gave you the address of my web page which explains everything in
> > >full but it is obvious that you have not even read it.
> >
> > You are correct. You have said nothing that has inspired me to think
> > wading through it would provide me with any hard facts or solid
> > evidence. As I said to another poster, I can't manage to get all the
> > way through Moses: Pharaoh of Egypt, either. I prefer my Biblical
> > fiction in movie form, with popcorn and a dramatic musical score.
>
> IDIOT. If you cannot even be bother to read through my scientific proof
then
> you have NO RIGHT to question them. You are nothing more than a BIGOT.
name calling how naughty ........... mind you aggie you cant answer the
right
question an often confuse them
Hope
>> >> >Vowels were NEVER present in the original script.
>> >>
>> >> Which is why *you* cannot be certain the "or" became "ura."
>> >
>> >WRONG. Which is why I can be 100% certain that the "R" was pronounced
>with
>> >"or" or "ura" or in any other combination.
>>
>> So it could not possibly have been "ar" or "ir" or "ieru" or any other
>> vowel combination? Fascinating! I wonder, then, why there are still so
>> many variant spellings of Egyptian names?
>
>FOOL. The fact that no vowels are included in the spelling means that ANY
>vowel consonant combination was permitted.
Exactly my point. If ANY vowel consonant combination was permitted,
then you cannot be 100% certain that your choice of which vowels they
meant is correct. Thank you.
>
>
>Dont make me laugh. What did you study for. The McDonalds diploma in Retail
>Sciences some other joke subject.
Actually, no, my master's degree is in the education of the visually
impaired, with an emphasis in congenital degenerative eye conditions.
I am working toward my doctorate, but I'm not in a rush to finish. I
also have a B.A. in English education and minors in library science
and adolescent psychology.
I stated right up front that my interest in ancient Egypt is of
strictly amateur status. That, of course, has already provided you
with much fodder for your superiority complex. What fun you must be
having sprinkling your all-cap insults about! Your professionalism is
truly commendable! (I do hope you are capable of recognizing sarcasm.)
It is quite obvious from your posting style that you flunked Ms.
Manners' correspondence course. May I recommend the Emily Post tome as
a quick reference to basic social skills?
>
>> >Shuttarna III would have ruled at the same time as Akenathon making him
>the
>> >best possible candidate for Cetus, the sea monster killed by Perseus.
>>
>> Hm...kings who morph into sea monsters. And I thought the Japanese
>> invented that one!
>
>FOOL. I already told you the Greek word for Trireme "Triakodoron" was
>corrupted into Dragon. To the ancient Greeks who wrote the text a Dragon WAS
>as Trireme in the same was an "Auto" is an "Automobile".
I see you that among your other deficiencies, a sense of humor is also
lacking.
>
>> >
>> >Shuttarna I ruled at the time of the Hyksos expulsion which is the origin
>of
>> >the Myth about the death and resurrection of Osiris, which is almost
>> >entirely down to Plutarch.
>>
>> So you're saying there was no Osiris myth before the Hyksos? Wow. And
>> what does "which is almost entirely down to Plutarch" mean? Did you
>> mistype, or is this yet one more mystery I am synaptically unable to
>> process?
>
>Plutarch is the primary source of the Osiris myth. You prove you utter
>ignorance by not knowing this.
And you prove yours by believing that.
>> >See previous posts. All I need to show to substantiate my argument is
>that
>> >Ankhesenamen is credited as the daughter of Akenathon and that she was
>given
>> >away to a foreign prince. NOONE is disputing either of these facts.
>>
>> WRONG. I myself have disputed them more than once, and others have
>> disputed them as well. But you seem to have a talent for ignoring
>> contrary evidence. Oh well. Turn about's fair play.
>
>You have disputed NOTHING. Where is you evidence that Ankhesenamen was not
>Akenathons daughter ? The Egyptian and Hittite records say she was.
>
Of *course* she was Akenaton's daughter! That was not the argument!
Good grief, do you not even remember what it was we were disputing?
The question was whether she was "given away" to a foreign prince and
left Egypt to sail into your dragon myth. I said she sent for a
foreign prince, who was dispatched to Egypt to wed her and was
murdered en route. Ring any bells?
>>
>
>FOOL. The Egyptian and Hittite records say he had a daugheter.
Actually, he had six by Neferititi, and there is evidence for one by
Kiya. The parentage of Beketaton, shown with Tiye and of the same
relative height as some of Akhenaton's daughters, is problematical.
But yes, you are correct, he had a daughter.
> Encyclopaedia
>Britannica says he had a daughter that was given away in marriage and names
>her.
Don't make me laugh when I'm drinking a Diet Coke, please! *wiping off
my screen*
>
>> >
>> >> >
>> >> >POPPYCOCK. The Bible state that Josephs Egyptian name was
>> >Psom-thom-fanich
>> >> >which is Tut-anch-amon.
>> >>
>> >> You are unbelievable! Quote for me the chapter and verse that says,
>> >> "Joseph's Egyptian name was Psom-thom-fanich, which is Tut-anch-amon."
>> >
>> >Genesis 41:45 And Pharao called the name of Joseph, Psonthomphanech; and
>he
>> >gave him Aseneth, the daughter of Petephres, priest of Heliopolis, to
>wife.
>>
>> Genesis (KJV--other translations basically identical)
>>
>> 41:45
>> And Pharaoh called Joseph's name Zaphnathpaaneah; and he gave him to
>> wife Asenath the daughter of Potipherah priest of On [Heliopolis being
>> the Greek name]. And Joseph went out over all the land of Egypt.
>>
>> 41:46
>> And Joseph was thirty years old when he stood before Pharaoh king of
>> Egypt. And Joseph went out from the presence of Pharaoh, and went
>> throughout all the land of Egypt.
>>
>> ******************
>>
>
>Still you have not even bothered to read the web page I gave you. READ IT
>YOU IMBECILE. Joseph was 15 years old when he was made Chancellor, the same
>age as Tutanchamon.
I have never heard hat Tutankhamon was made Chancellor at 15. I have
only read that he was made Pharaoh at 8 or 9 and died at 18 or 19.
And you still did not address how you made the leap in names. Egyptian
names had meaning. They were sacred. How do you reconcile the meanings
of the two names Tutankhamon and Zaphnathpaaneah and make them one
person?
> ALL the years given in the bible are given as FRACTIONS
>because it was written by the GREEKS. If have proven IRREFUTABLY that this
>was the case by 3 independent means.
>
>People don't live 180 years or father children at the age of 100. The ages
>of the patriarchs from Abraham to Joshua are all given in Equinoctial Years
>and the bible leaves them as top heavy fractrions. They should all be halves
>but the people who copied the text left out the denominator.
Yes, of course the Biblical years are not literal. My point was that
there is no way you can reconcile the events of Joseph's life with
Tutankhamon's, since we have his mummy and know his approximate age at
death.
I have also read a text purporting to "prove" that Yuya, the father of
Queen Tiye, was Joseph. The author was just as certain that he had it
right as you are. You two should get together and hurl epithets at one
another.
>
>> So Potipherah = Akhenaton, priest of On? And Asenath = his daughter,
>> mother of Joseph's two sons? *rubbing my temples*
>
>Correct. "On" taken to mean Heliopolis the "city of the sun" could also be
>the city of Aken-aton since Aton also means "the sun" and this was the
>primary place of the worship of Aton in Akenaton and Tutanchamons time.
Actually, though we lack direct evidence, Akhenaton probably did spend
time training as a priest of On, since it was customary for the Horus
in the Nest to do so. However, On was *not* the primary place of
worship of the Aton during their lifetimes. That would have been
Akhetaton, the city built by Akhenaton on virgin territory
specifically to be the seat of Aton worship--with himself as the only
intermediary between the god and the people.
Before a gradual promotion during the 18th Dynasty, Aton was a minor
attribute of the complex sun deity system, representing, as best we
can tell, the visible disk, or perhaps, as some have speculated, the
life energy of the sun. On was more traditionally associated with Ra.
(Please note that I do not feel a need to attack your intellectual
capacity because you got this one wrong.)
>
>IDIOT. If you cannot even be bother to read through my scientific proof then
>you have NO RIGHT to question them.
What I question is how you can call it scientific proof.
>You are nothing more than a BIGOT.
Yes, yes, we have established that this is your catch-all phrase for
anyone who does not agree with you. Duly noted and scribbled in the
margins of my unabridged dictionary.
>
>CRETIN. I gave you proof but you openly admit that you cannot even be
>bothered to read it. YOU ARE A JOKE.
You have already demonstrated your inability to recognize a joke.
Perhaps you would more accurately call me a pain in your ass. Oh,
sorry, that should be PAIN IN MY ASS.
>
>You have LOST the argument because you cannot challenge the undeniable
>facts.
Again you have things bassackwards. I engaged in an argument because
your "facts" are deniable. There is no win/lose with intellectual
zealots and fanatics.
>
>You are talking out of your ASSHOLE.
No,I believe that was Jim Carey in Pet Detective.
I myself was typing with my fingers.
>You have not even read a word of my
>proof so how the hell can you know what it does or does not mention. Ether
>refute the FACTS I have given or shut up.
Let me examine my choices:
(1) Expose myself to certain displeasure and tedious reading. Risk
possible contamination dabbling in the effluvium of a mind run
horribly amuck.
(2) Eliminate a major source of recent headaches by banishing a
boorish churl (or churlish boor--either way he deserves the redundancy
for emphasis) from my immediate sphere of existence.
Er...uh...I pick curtain #2!
Consider this the formal termination of dialog between us. Good luck
with your windmill tilting, Don Q.
steve
>
>The Egyptian Hieroglyphic alphabet demonstrably goes back to the beginning
>of the third millennium BC, the Hebrew (or Jewish) alphabet doesn't go back
>that far, does it?
The development of alphabets as a form of script whose glyphs
are associated with phonemes that can be assembled into morphemes
probably begins in Mesopotamia rather than Egypt, perhaps as early
as the end of the fourth millenium BC or the start of the third.
By the Jemdet Nasr c 3100-2900 BC such scripts are present in Mesopotamia,
Egypt and the IVC, but they are not yet fully developed. That development
includes the addition of a number of grammatical markers.
Thomsen begins with a discussion of word order and notes that Akkadian
though a semitic language has picked up the Sumerian SOV. What makes
this possibal is schools for scribes. In the OB period Sumerian was
studied in the Eduba.
>I can't quite follow how one is much later than the other
>yet they are 'co-emergent'.
It's a long process, think of it like branches on a tree.
At first glance we categorize trees as decidous or coniferous
and assign them characteristics like hardwoods or softwoods.
Even if something like hackamatack comes along and we have
to recognize it as a decidious conifer, we would still
consider them co-emergent as species compared to say ferns.
> As far as I know, there is no sign of
>'co-emergence' of similar letters in (for example) Cuneiform and Hieroglyphs
>(relative contemporaries by comparison?) - surely the logical conclusion is
>that at least some letters in the Hebrew/Jewish Alphabet descended either
>directly or indirectly from Hieroglyphs.
Not all Ancient Egyptian is written in hieroglyphs, not all signs are alphabetic.
Some signs are ideograms or determinatives not used in alphabetic scripts.
Both Semitic and IE scripts (not just Hebrew and/or Jewish but including
Egyptian, Phoenician, Hebrew, Hittite, Greek, and Arabic variations
are used to write a wide variety of languages.
At Ugarit there are cuneiform alphabets.
>To the Egyptians, there was a mystical link between the alphabet and the pantheon
Not really. The Egyptians generally used a phoenetic spelling
to refer to their pantheon and added ideograms and determinatives.
Egyptian mysticism was pretty straightforward, because the determinatives
indicated which syntaxt a morpheme should be taken in.
Hebrew mysticism is more obscure with a number of different paths
through which meaning can be wrung out of a text.
For example the kabalistic ab ba ra ka da ba ra
(which we all seem to learn as children along with hocus pocus and other such phrases)
can be seen to be taken from the straightforward Egyptian mortuary ritual
where the life of a man is compared to the path of the sun from dawn to dusk
It could be read abba ra kada bara in Hebrew (our fathers place [was in] kadesh barnea)
http://www.bartleby.com/61/roots/S0.html
(for the semitic roots)
then the mystical or magical form would be written backward
to give a second reference to the exodus
arabadakarabba (the Arabah through Aqabah)
could further be considered as a series of anagrams
(the arabah pilgramage where the land itself
was given with the law to our fathers at Aqabah)
>- if one language has its roots in the other
Hebrews semitic roots are not really the same as the lexical roots of Egyptian
for a more in depth discussion consider reading Loprieno and perhaps even Thompsen
>then would it be stretching the point to assume that
>there must at one time have been cultural and religious links
>between the two societies
There were cultural and religious links,
Israel was a part of Egypts territory
The biclical discussion of the creation of the new religion makes it clear
that it follows the Egyptian form where the form of the god to be worshipped
was carved in stone, housed in an ark and the ark placed in a sanctuary.
The ten commandments were carved in stone, placed in an ark and the
ark was housed in a sanctuary making it clear that when the Law
of the Sons of Israel demanded that there should be no gods that
came before it what it was asking for was sovreignity for the
written law over the spoken law of the king or pharoah.
That's the basically Mesopotamian concept which was first
encoded by Hamurapi in the time of Abram.
Much of the Bible literature is copied straight out of the Egyptian and
Mesopotamian literature and of course there is the family history of the
tribes which also professes a close linkage.
> - ie might this be supportive evidence for the
>claim that the Jews spent a period of time in Egypt?
There is better evidence...
steve
>>It might interest you to know that Egyptian fragments of the original
>>Akkadian letter between Suppiluliumas and the Egyptian queen have
>>survived, and were analyzed by Elmar Edel in 1978.
http://www.geocities.com/farfarer2001
"DEEDS OF SUPPILULIUMA
Excerpt from Goetze, JCS 10 1956
FIRST TABLET
Fragment 1 KUB 23 2=Bo 7797
[Thus speaks My Sun Mursili, the Great King, King of Hatti,
H]e[ro, son of Suppiluliuma, king of Hatti, He[ro, grandson of Tudhaliya]
king of Hat[ti, Hero]: Ö., my grandfather Ö. Away Ö
Fragment 2 KUB 19 12=Bo 626 (Possibly not here)
Ö Para[-Ö] [Ö]-ili, Telepinu, [ Ö] (and?) (the woman) Harapöite
[ Ö] into ÖÖ. Made ÖÖ the land of Hayaöa [Ö.to T]udhaliya,
my grandf[ather ÖÖ Tudh]aliya himself Ö..
But [after] wards, at the time of Hantu[zzili, Ö.of ] Tudhali[yaÖ]
[Ö[ed it and again [Ö]ed it. Then [Ö] But it happened that it
[Ö] at the time of [Ö An]d it again [Ö..]
Fragment 3 KUB 14 22=Bo 788
After [Ö] again [Ö] Hantuzzil[i...] smote. The troops [Ö]
But afterwards he went again [Ö] and the town of Arziya
[he Ö] and the goods of Arziya [with the inhabitants],
cattle and sheep the enemy kept. [Ö] Hantuzzili again
[Ö] [and] the enemy troops [died] in multitude.
But the [inhabitant]s [Ö] wi[th] him [Öla]nd of Arz[iyaÖ.]]
Fragment 4
Then finally [he[ wait[ed] no longer [Ö] and he went back
[Ö] And t[he Ö], who to Tuttu [Ö], because Tuttu used to neglect the
[Ö[ my grand[father Ö] and the town of äallapa with fire [Öhe burned.
When] my grandfather se[t fire] to the town, [Ö] because the town
belonged to his [Ö] and therefore it [Ö] great to him, to my grandfather
[Ö] to extinguish (he) c[ame and the fire ] he extinguished.
[But] Tu[ttu Ö]. Then my grandfather [said] to [Ö: ìÖ] send forthî.
And [he sent] him [forth Ö] servants [Ö] because [Ö]
Fragment 5
[Öto]wn ar[myÖ] ÖTapa[illi] with [Tutt]u [were] eight men [Öwi]th them
[in?] the town of Ta[Ö] to Tuttu [Ö] [Öwi]th him [in?] the town of
Hatami[-Ö with] Tuttu [were] eight m[en wi]th him [in?]
the town of Du[-Ö] [Ö]
Fragment 6
And the gods [Ö] And to the arm[y Ö] And [the Ö] which to him [Ö] armies
[Ö] armies forward [Ö] And he [Ö] to Tuttu [Ö]
Fragment 7
[Ö]
Fragment 8
[Ö] [Ö] the aforesaid enemy [Ö And] my grandfather from [Ö tu]rned
and he [went] into [Ö] And when he came to Monut [Nanni], on Mount
Na[nniÖ]. But my father [Ö]forth and the troops of the tribes to
[ÖAnd] who [went to] atta[ck Ö, he att]acked [him] and the population
[Ö] on Monut Nanni agai[nst Ö] But when my grandfather undertook
to re-establish [the country of Ö], the son of Zittara, [told him in]
the town of Ha-[Ö]:îHalpamuwa, who was [Ö] in the country [Ö]
SECOND AND THIRD TABLETS
Fragment 9
[Ö]
Fragment 10 KUB 19 11=BoTU 34
But when my father ma[rched forward], he [did not] meet the
Hayaöean enemy in the [country of Ö]. So my father went
[after the Hayaöean] enemy, but again he ded not meet [him].
But the Gaögean enemy, all of their tribal troops, he met
[in the country]. And the gods stood by him:
[the Sun Goddess of Arinna],
the Storm God of Hatti,
the Storm God of the Army and
Ishtar of the Battlefield,
so that the en[emy] died in multitude.
He also [took] ma[ny] prisoners and brought them back to äamuha.
Again my father went forth from [äamuha].
And [in the country] which had been laid waste
by i[ts] enemy, there stood a[ll] of the enemies.
[Even the Ö] and the shepherds [had come to] help.
[My father] set a trap [for them] and [smote] the Gaö[geans].
The helpers who had come [those he smote too] so that the Kaöka troops
and the au[xiliary] troops [died in multitude].
But the captives whom [he took were countless]. [Ö]
Fragment 11
[Ö] let him go! [Ö] There [Ö] because [Ödoes not] die, kill him [Ö]
Thus spoke my father to my grandfather:
ìOh my lord! Send me on that [campai]gn. Then what is in my [heart],
the gods will fulfil!î So my grandfather sent forth my father from äamuha.
[And when he] arrived in the land of Hatti, since [the kunzi had been]
burned down by the enemy, my father began to cast away the kunzi.
And they cast it away and took [Ö]. [And to my Ö] they brought [wo]rd:
ì[Ö] brought the Kaöka ti the town of [Waö]haniya, [Ö] Waöhaniya [Ö]
deportees, cattle and sheep of the Ö palace [Ö] Mount Pirwaööi [Ö]
from Hattusa [Ö] kept. And the Kaöka [Ö]
Fragment 12 BoTU 33=KUB 26 84=Bo2726 col iii
....behind ...t]o my father [...] (the town of) Neniötankuwa .....
with ..... And he ...-ed him. [But when my father/grandfather came]
back to Hatti, they brought [him word]: "The Kaska enemy set out yo attack ...!"
Fragment 13 D col iv; E col i
[When my father] heard this , he concerned himself [wtih...].
He set out to lay a trap in front of [...] And the enemy who had arrived
[at ...], he [slew?] him. [The Kaska] assembled nine tribal groups.
[The .... which ...] kept, he [...]-ed to him. And everyone [went away]
to his own [town]. But when my father [arrived] with his for[ce],
the Kaska enemy was afraid and, in consequence, they put their weapons down.
But s[ince] my father had built fortifications behind the empty towns
of the whole country which had been emptied by the enemy, he brought
the population back, everyone to his own town and they occupied
the towns of the population again. But my grandfather once more
became well and came down from the Upper Country. And since the
troops of the lands of Maöa and Kammala kept attacking the and
of theHulana River and the land of Kaööiya, my grandfather went
to attack them.
And my father went with my grandfather on the campaign.
The gods helped my grandfather, wo that he went and detroyed the
land of Maööa and Kammala. While my grandfather [was] in the land
of Kammala, my father was also with him. But in the rear, the Kaska
enemy took weapons up again and the enemy again destoryed the empty
towns behind which my father had built fortications. And when my
grandfather [came] back from the country of Maööa - the countries
of Kathariya and Gazzapa which kept destroying [towns] as the
Kaska [troops] carried away their goods, silver, gold, bronze
utensils and everything - my grandfather went to those towns
in order to attack the troops of Kathariya and Gazzapa.
[Then] the gods helped my grandfather so that he destroyed the
towns of Kathariya and Gazzapa and burned them down. And all
the Kaska troops who had come to help Kathariya - the gods
helped my grandfather so that he smote those Kaska troops
and the Kaska troops .... died in multitudes.
But when my grandfather came back from there, he went to the
country of Hayasa. And my father was still with him. And when
my grandfather arrived in the country of Hayasa, there came
Karanni, king of Hayasa to meet him in battle below the town of Kummaha....
Colophon of E: Third <tablet> of the Deeds of Suppiluliuma the great king the hero...
Fragment 14 F iii
... laid a] tr[ap for the K]aska. [...Piy]apili .... they kill.
[...Pi]yapili .....nothing eveil. But [when] my grandfather heard
[of the ...of] Piy[apili] - since my grandfather was still [si]ck,
my grandfather (spoke) thus: [Who] will go? Thus spoke my father:
"I will go!". [So] my grandfather sent forth my father.
When my father arrived in the country, he foud that the Kaska enemy
who had come inside the land of Hatti had treated the land very badly.
And the Kaska enemy who my father met inside the country consisted of 12 tribes.
The gods helped my father so that he slew the aforementioned Kaska enemy,
the tribal troops, wehrever he caught him. And what he held, that my
father took away from him and gave it to the Hatti.
But my grandfather once more became well and came down from the upper country.
ANd when he arrived at the town of Zithara, he met a[ll] the troops of the
(town of) ... in Zithara. And the gods helped my grandfather so that
the slew [the enemy]. The troops os the town of .... the country.....enemies...
ar[my]... (the town of) .... my grandfa[ther].... heap.... but the one whom.....
something..... Kas[ka] ,,,, to the [Arzawa] enemy.....
[Thus spoke my father] to my grandfather: [Oh my lord] Aga[inst the Arz]awa
[enemy send] me! [So my grandfather sent my father] aga[inst] the Arzawa enemy.
[And when] my father had[ marched for] the first [day, he came to the town of ...]-aöha.
[The gods] helped [my father:
the Sun Goddess of Arinna,
the Storm God of Ha]tti,
the Storm God of the A[rmy and
Iötar of the Battlefield] [so that my father slew the] Arzawa [enemy...]
and the enemy troops [died in] multitudes... the] Arzawa enemy my father
[...]-ed and he sl[ew] him.... But furthermore again three tr[ibes he me]t
[in...] and slew them......But furthermore again he met.... [..tribes in...]
and my father [slew them so that the ]emnemy [troops died] in multitudes
[...the ] whole tribe was [...]-ed. ....to him Dulli .... and Nahiruwa....
Fragment 23 8iii
[Iöhu]pitta .... Armatana....Armatana.....
But because the country of Armatana was hostile [toward...]
Fragment 24
....h]imslef hurrie[ed...] army .... had come.... the enemy
[died] in multitude... and all of Armatana ... he enslaved on the [spot]
and ....it.... the (country of ) Armatan .... I shall go!
Thus he spoke ... with the army..... Hatti wh[o...] us .... not ....
Fragment 25 XXXIV 23 i
...to the troops ... [the peop]le of Hull-.... gone over ....kept attacking
...in [som]e rich tow[n ...the ...of] Hatti he took away and ....
their fathers, their mothers and their brothers.... to his own father, mother
and portico ... who [had gone] over to .... (he) led away the population,
cattle and sheep [and] brought t[them to ...] And everyone took ....
But the people of Isuwa were .... and to them ti (the things that had been)
carried away, they ....-ed. But the Hatti deportees to them....
(he) took away.....(he) left ..... (he) brought.....(he) was.....
But my father ,,,,,revenge against,,,,[and] went [into the country of ]
Zuhappa and [burned] it down: [What] was around [the town, that] he burned down
and [all] of the town of Zuhappa he burned [dow]n too.
But the deportees went ...in]to the country of Hayasa,....-ed and
they ....ed them from Mount Laha. [The,,,,] which...in the country of Isuwa
.... they belonged to Hatti.....something to someone..... even in winter he went
[and] attacked [the country of ...]-öeni.
And the deportees, [cattle sheep and bron]ze [utesnsils] which the army
had left behind [in those bronze utensils] he brought from there.....
he came and in the country of Isuwa ... which [in Isuwa] ...chariots....
Fragment 26: XXXIV 23 ii
2-10: from the battle [Ö.] and the deportees, cattle [and sheep Ö.]
back to the army [Ö.] whom they held back [Ö] Then in the land of Ha[tti Ö]
empty granaries (?) [Ö] and him [Ö] broke (?) [Ö]
11-30: And when [my father Ö] thereupon to the k[ing of Mittanni,
he sent a message and [wrote] him thus: ì[Ö] came before [Ö] (the city of)
Carchemish, the ci[ty Ö] I attacked, but to thee [I wrote thus]:
ìCome! Let us fight! [Ö] But he stayed in (the city of ) [Washukanni],
he did not answer [Ö] and did not [come] to a battle.
[So my father went] there after [him].
The harvest which was [Ö] in Washukanni [Ö] there was no water at a ll [Ö]
the towns which [Ö were] looted [Ö] around [Ö] with str[aw Ö].
And again [Ö] to drink [Öt]o my father [Ö] (See version in Shattiwaza Treaty.)
Fragment 27 BoTU 43 i
grain.... But when... and (the town of) Kinza ...had been burned [down...]
the army ..... and the lords up there bes[ide...] in the country of
Nuhasse to [my] brother?...And they, both of them, came to my fath[er...]
and they [stayed in...] with my father. (See version in Shattiwaza Treaty.)
Colophon: [The Deeds] of [Suppiluliuma]. the great king.
Fragment 28: KBo V 6 and duplicates
... Kaska battles Ö.
A ii 1-20: Tribal troops came in multitudes and attacked his army by night.
Then the gods of his father helped my brother (so that) he defeated the
tribal troops of the enemy and [slew] them. And when he had defeated the
tribal troops, [the country of[ the enemy saw him and they were afraid
and all the countries of Arziya and Carchemish made peace with him and
the town of Murmuriga made peace with him (too).
In the country of Carchemish, Carchemish itself, as the one town,
did not make peace with him. So the Priest ñ my father ñ left six hundred men
and chariots and Lupakki, the commander of ten of the army, in the country
of Murmuriga (while) the Priest came to Hattusa to meet my father.
But my father was in Uda and performed festivals. So he met him there.
But when the Hurrians saw that the Priest had gone, the troops and chariots
of the Hurrian country came ñ and Takhuli, the amumikuni, was among them ñ
and surrounded Murmuriga. And they were superior to the troops and chariots
of Hatti who were there.
A ii 21ff: To the country of Kinza, which my father had conquered,
troops and chariots of Egypt came and attacked the country of Kinza.
Word was brought to my father: ìThe troops and chariots which are up in Murmuriga,
the Hurrians have surrounded themî. Thereupon my father mobilized troops and chariots
and marched against the Hurrians. But when he arrived in the country of Tegarama,
he made a review of his troops and chariots in the town of Talpa.
Then he sent his son, Arnuwanda and Zita, the chief pretorian, from Tegarama ahead
into the Hurrian country. And when Arnuwanda and Zita came down into the country,
[the enemy] came against them for battle. Then the gods of my father helped them
[so that they defeat]ed the enemy. But the enemy [...] below the town and went
[down] from the town [in order to escape (?) Ö the moun]tains of the country
of Tegarama [Ö] When [my father he]ard: ìAhead of time he [will go and ]
escape down from the town!î ñ when however my father came down into the country,
he did not meet the enemy fro the Hurrian country.
So he went down to Carchemish and surrounded it and [ Ö]ed [ Öon this side]
of it and on that side (so that) he [surr]ounded it [completely].
The river [Ö] below the place [Ö] ships [Ö] (he) took, then [Ö..]
A iii 1: Dahamunzu event during siege of Carchemish:
While my father was down in the country of Carchemish,
he sent Lupakki and Tarhunda-zalma forth into the country of Amka.
So they went to attack Amka and brought deportees, cattle and sheep
back before my father. But when the people of Egypt heard of the attack on Amqa,
==============================================================================
they were afraid. And since, in addition, their lord, Nibhururiya had died,
therefore the queen of Egypt, who was Dahamunzu, sent a messenger to my father
and wrote to him thus: My husband died. A son I have not. But to thee, they say,
the sons are many. If thou wouldst give me one son of thine, he would become
my husband. Never shall I pick out a servant of mine and make him my husband!...I an afraid"
==================================================================================
When my father heard this, he called for the Great Ones for council saying:
"Such a thing has never happened to me in my whole life!" So it happened that
my father sent forth to Egypt Hattusa-ziti, the chamberlain with this order:
"Go and bring thou the true word back to me! Maybe they deceive me!
Maybe in fact they do have a son of their lord! Bring thou the true word back to me!"
(In the meantime) until Hattuöaziti came back from Egypt, my father finally conquered
the city of Carchemish. He had besieged it for seven days and on the 8th day
he fought a battle against it for one day and [took ] it in a terrific battle
on the 8th day in [one] day. And when he had conquered the city - since
[my father] fear[ed] the gods - oin the upper citadel he let no one
in[to the presence ] of [Kubaba] and of the diety KAL and he did not
r[ush] close to [any one of the temples]. Nay he even bowed to them
and then gave.... But from the lower town he removed the inh[abitants],
silver, gold, bronze utensils and carried them to Hattusa.
And te deportees whom he brought to the palace were 3,330, [whereas]
those whom the Hatti brought home [were without number]
Then [he...]his son äarri-Kushuh and [gave] him the country of Carchemish
and the city of [Carchemish] to govern and ma[de] him a king on his own.
But when he had e[stablished] Carchemish, he [went] back to the land of Hatti
and spe[nt] the winter in the land of Hatti.
But when it became spring, Hattusaziti [came back] from Egypt and
the messenger of Egypt, Lord Hani, came with him. Now, since my father had,
when he sent Hattusaziti to Egypt, given him orders as follows:
"Maybe they have a son of their lord! Maybe they deceive me
and do not want my son for the kingship!" therefore the queen of Egypt
wrote back to my father in a letter thus: "Why didst thou say
'they deceive me' in that way? Had I a son, would I have written
about my own and my country's shame to a foreign land?
Thou didst not believe me and hast even spoken thus to me.
He who was my husband has died. A son I have not!
Never shall I take a servant of mine and make him my husband!
I have written to no other country, only to thee have I written!
They say thy sons are many: so give me one son of thine!
To me he will be husband, but in Egypt he will be king"
So since my father was kindhearted, he complied with the word of the woman
and concerned himself with the matter of a son.
...Suppiluliuma speaks thus to Hani: "......I [myself] was friendly,
but you, you suddenly did me evil. You [came] and attacked the man
of Kinza whom I [had taken away] from the king of Hurri-land.
I, when I heard this, became angry and I sent [forth] my own troops
and chariots and the lords. So they came and attacked your territory,
the country of Amka. And when they attacked Amka, which is your country,
you probably were afraid; and therefore you keep asking me for a son of mine
(as if it were my) duty. [H]e will in some way become a hostage, but
[king] you will not make him!" [Thus spoke Hani to my father "O my lord!
This [is...] our country's shame! If we had [a son of the king] at all,
would we have come to a foreign country and kept asking for a lord
for ourselves? Nibhururiya, who was our lord, died; a son he has not.
Our lord's wife is solitary. We are seeking a son of our Lord for the
kingship in Egypt and for the woman, our lady, we seek him as her husband.
Furthermore, we went to no other country, only here did we come.
Now O our lord, give us a son of thine!" So then my father
concerned himself on their behalf with the matter of a son.
Then my father asked for the tablet of the treaty again,
how formerly the Storm God took the people of Kuruötama,
sons of Hatti, and carried them to Egypt and made them
Egyptians and how the Storm God concluded a treaty
between the countries of Egypt and Hatti and how
they were continuously friendly with each other.
And when they read aloud the tablet before them, my father
then addressed them thus: "Of old, Hattusa and Egypt were
friendly with each other and now this too on our behalf
has taken place between them. Thus Hatti and Egypt
will continuously be friendly with each other!
Fragment 31 XIX 4
...z]i, the king of Barga, H[u...], the man of ...
When they did not send ...., then a tabl[et...] they...and they ...
one to another. [When] they brought this tablet, they spokethus:
"[the people of Egypt?] killed [Zannanza] and brought word:
"Zannanza [died?]. And when] my father he[ard of] the slaying of Zannanza,
he began to lament for [Zannanza and] to the go[ds...] he spoke [th]us:
"O Gods! I did [no e]viil, [yet] the people of Egy[pt d]id [this to me]
and they also [attacked][ the frontier of my country!" ...heard..
Fragment 32 XXIII 8
....it....in the country of E[gypt....] I ....-ed but not .....treaty,
the man of.... had conlcuded.....someone turned.....evil....
Fragment 33 BoTU 42 iv
Kaska events
Fragment 34 BoTU 44 + 46 i
Kaska events
Fragment 35. BoTU 44 ii
3: king [Ö]
4-18: [Ö]
19-39: [And the gods helped my father]:
the Sun Goddess of Ari[nna,
the Storm God of Hatti,
the Storm God of the Army, and
Ishtar of the Battlefield]
(so that) with troops and ch[ariots Ö]
22-25: [Ö]
26- : And (to) thee [Ö] Ki[li-Teshup (?) ...].
But thou [ ...] let not at all ...î Then he went forth into the country of H[arran]
and burned it down. And from Harran he went [forth to the (city of ) Wassukanni]
and [burned down] the country of Wa[ssukanni].
And [from] Wassukanni, [he went to Taita (?)].
But when the Assyrian [heard that the king of Carchemish had come],
he [marched forth] with the troops and ch[ariots of Assur (?)] and
[went] to Taita and [came to the] help of äuttarna [Ö]
But when the king of Carchemis[h Ö] Wassukann[I Ö]
Fragment 38 13ii
....be]fore ....I .... be[came...] in [Huö]ura ....
But the people of Huöura had ...-ed ..... [hos]tile against me ....
they split [of]f.... in the country of Mitanni ....And the town empty....
and .... it down to the foundations, The ...he caused to flee....-ed
and began [to,,,,[ the ....of the land of Hatti......... [in the otwn of)
Irrita to the side of the river .....And my [bro]ther? was with him.....-ed.
And they brought word to him:"....the man of Irrita....-ed
and the chariots of Hurri were superior [to....but] the gods he[lped...]
Fragment 41 No. 15
[Ö] the land of Ha[tti Ö] the countries wh[ich Ö] very much [Ö]
thou even oppressed. [Ö] thou goest [to] Irrite [Ö bac]k to Carchemish [Ö]î
And into the town of Ituwa (sic!) [Ö] And the country of Carchemi[sh Ö]
he conquered and it [Ö] Carchemish [Ö] troops and chariots Ö.
Fragment 42
[Ö] (the town of) [Ö] But [wh]en to th[em Öhe Ö]ed [Ö] and to them [Ö]
troops and [chariotsÖ.] surround[ed Ö] From [(the town of)Öhe went] to
(the town of) Irrite [...] he came from [Wassu]kanni [Ö] troops and
chariots [Ö.] comes [Ö["
>>This was noted in
>>
>>Murnane, W. 1990. _The Road to Kadesh: A Historical Interpretation of
>>the Battle Reliefs of King Sety I at Karnak_ (Second Ed., Revised),
>>SAOC 42 (Chicago:OI/Univ of Chicago).
>>
>>According to Giles, in his _The Amarna Age:Western Asia_ (BACE 5,
>>1997:93), Edel seemed convinced by the analyses of all of these
>>various references that the name "Nibhururiya" referred to Tutankhamun
>>rather than Akhenaten.
>>
>>HTH.
>>
>>Regards --
>>
>>Katherine Griffis-Greenberg...
>Yes, indeed this most certainly *does* interest me! Thank you for
>providing the references!
>
>I suspect my housecleaning is going to remain on the back burner for
>yet another while...*G*
regards,
steve
Hope
That is fascinating reading. Whether the Egyptian queen in question
was Nefertiti or her daughter, it still raises all sorts of questions
about who knew about this and what was going on in the Egyptian court
and what happened to the queen who wrote it. Obviously not everyone in
power was in favor of putting a foreigner on the throne of Egypt. In
fact, the idea itself is amazing, and I would *love* to know the real
story behind it.
I seem to recall that Velikovski placed this incident during a much
later reign, due to his radical redating. But it seems to fit in with
the unsettled nature of the Egyptian court during/after Akhenaton's
reign and the strong position of the Hittites.
Do you have an opinion as to who wrote the letter?
Katherine Griffis
> Katherine Griffis <egy...@griffis-consulting.com> wrote in message
> > It might interest you to know that Egyptian fragments of the original
> > Akkadian letter between Suppiluliumas and the Egyptian queen have
> > survived, and were analyzed by Elmar Edel in 1978.
> >
> > This was noted in
> >
> > Murnane, W. 1990. _The Road to Kadesh: A Historical Interpretation of
> > the Battle Reliefs of King Sety I at Karnak_ (Second Ed., Revised),
> > SAOC 42 (Chicago:OI/Univ of Chicago).
> >
> > According to Giles, in his _The Amarna Age:Western Asia_ (BACE 5,
> > 1997:93), Edel seemed convinced by the analyses of all of these
> > various references that the name "Nibhururiya" referred to Tutankhamun
> > rather than Akhenaten.
> Agreed, I think HOPE's major point is that aggy tends to run away from
> he/she self and get to carried away.
>
> I believe the letter was written under the name of Dahamunzu........ referring to her recently dead husband Niphururiya........ and it seems to suggest that Ankhesenamun is the most likely candidate.......... <
"Dahamunzu" is likely the Hittite understanding of /tA Hmt nsw/ "The
King's wife," FWIW. As a 'name,' it tells us little.
Nicholas Reeves in his most recent book on Akehnaten [_Akhenaten, The
False Prophet_], for example, has made the argument that Giles and
Edel are wrong, and that the king so referred to as dead is Akhenaten
and thus, 'Dahamunzu' is Nefertiti. As such, his work reflects the
alternate theory, following (I think) the work of Rolf Krauss in _Das
Ende die Amarnazeit_.
There are several problems with this theory, IMO, and here are two
points of importance:
As you know, "Dahamunzu" wrote two letters to the Hittite King
Suppiluliumas requesting a son. At the time of the second letter,
there was also a report from her amabassador, Chani, that their 'lord,
Nibhururiya' had died without a son, and their queen was solitary.
This small fact is often ignored in the discussion of "Nefertiti as
Dahamanzu," for example.
However, the nail seems particularly placed in the coffin for this
argument by the KUB XIX, 20 letter, in my point of view. KUB XIX, 20
is a letter from Suppiluliuams to the "King of Egypt," inquiring about
the death of his son Zannanza, who had been sent to Egypt to marry the
Egyptian queen in response to her two letters.
There, the Hittite King addresses as male king who had already taken
the throne during the affair of the Egyptian correspondence -- just as
Ay appears to have done shortly after the death of Tutankhamun.
In the van de Hout translation/reconstruction which was published in
Phoenix 39,3 (1993), there is an interesting point made by van de Hout
on the matter of Chani's involvement in this matter concerning this
exchange in the letter:
"...[When the queen of E]gypt wrote again and again, you(?) not [...]
was
you/she(?). But if you [in the meanwhile? had seated yourself on the
throne,
then] you could have sent my son back home. [...] Your [serva]nt Chani
held us
responsible [...] What [have you done] with my son?!"
As was noted at the EEF website concerning this translation
<http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/Alley/4482/Ay.html>
"...the poor Hittite father is blamed via Chani (Egyptian envoy),
apparently
along the lines of 'Why did you send your son, there was already a
pharaoh,
your son was not needed, you have yourself to blame for this
unnecessary
tragedy.' ...The "held us (Hittites) responsible" and the startled
response
"you could have send my son back home" indicates to me that Ay said in
his
letter that he already was on the throne _before_ the Hittite prince
(could)
arrive(d) in Egypt, _before_ Zannanza got killed."
This reference appears to be evidence of Chani covering his tracks
before a
new ruler and attempting to regroup: possibly along the lines
suggested above at
the EEF site, and along the lines of explanation to the king as "Well,
your
majesty, I can only account for Zannanza's death as an example of
Hittite
greed for the throne. It must be they were unaware you were already
upon the throne and sent Zannanza here with hopes of marrying [the
Egyptian Queen.]
Therefore, Zannanza's death is their [and possibly that of the
'Egyptian queen'] own fault for being so presumptuous." This was later
passed on to Suppiluliumas in some fashion as "...Your [serva]nt Chani
held us responsible [...]"
_Something_ in terms of intelligence gathering of Suppiluliumas' own
people (he sent envoys to determine if what the Egyptian queen said
was true, and to particularly look for a prince in the waiting) had to
convince him: my opinion (assuming the scholars are correct in this
matter) is the dead king is Tutankhamun, his queen and Chani were _not
lying_ about there not being a royal heir, and Suppiluliumas' _own
intelligence gathering_ (led by Hattuzitis] confirmed their
assertions. All reports of Suppiluliumas prior to the "Egyptian Queen"
correspondence show him to be a cautious and wily warrior and ruler:
it does seem very unlikely, to me, he would have just taken the queen
or Chani's word based upon faith, especially after he sent Hattuzitis
_specificially_ to Egypt to find out if there was deceit on their part
about there being "no prince" in the wings ready to take the throne.
So, this is part of most scholars' reasoning that the Hittite's
'Nibhururiya' = Tutankhamun -- not only linguistically, but in light
of subsequent correspondence.
Another very good discussion of these same problems can be found in
Murnane, W. 1990. _The Road to Kadesh: A Historical Interpretation of
the Battle Reliefs of King Sety I at Karnak_ (Second Ed.,Revised).
SAOC 42 (Chicago: OI/Univ. of Chicago).
Katherine Griffis
RE: Flying Saucer theories of similarities of religions:
> I would think that a good dose of The Golden Bough would benefit the
> denizens of this ng.
> TS
So would familiarity with the terms 'syncretism' [Reconciliation or
fusion of differing systems of belief, as in philosophy or religion,
especially when success is partial or the result is heterogeneous] and
'cultural diffusion' [The spread of linguistic or cultural practices
or innovations within a community or from one community to another].
Katherine Griffis
> I have often, seen this time and time again.....
>
> Poy <poy...@earthlink.net> wrote in message
> news:yvaW7.17932$Cw3.1...@newsread2.prod.itd.earthlink.net...
> >Christian because Osiris having a son
>
> In what context....... In some versions....... Horus is the farther and is
> married to Hathor!!
> ( Hathor seems to be like a early, but different version of Isis, which in
> the later version becomes horus's mother!)
Separate deities all. There are at least two Horuses in Egyptian myth
- Horus the Elder and Horus, son of Isis and Osiris. Horus the Elder
is the brother of Sutekh (Seth) and both are protective deities of the
kingship, which tends to make their direct allusions to Christianity a
tad difficult to maintain.
>
> I also address why even the other version is so mixed up.
>
> > (Horus that became ruler just like Jesus).
The main connection with Isis and Horus to Christianity (and this is
VERY late on Egyptian history, such as the Ptolemaic era leading to
the early Christian era is that Isis nursing Horus-as-Child
(Harpocrates) _statues_ were converted to Madonna and Child statuary
by the early church in the Mediterranean world and eventually to the
Near East. Since Isis worship spread to the Mediterranean did not
occur until the Ptolemaic era, the analogy is tenuous as to king=
Horus=Jesus. Better to look to the cult and myths of Mithras for the
resurrected as god-king, IMO.
> Although its almost impossible to ascertain, what horus's original true/
> earliest form was Horus, was not of Egyptian origin, and was in fact the god of war!
No, you are thinking of Montu here, who was also a falcon-headed
deity, but totally separate from Horus or his mythos. If noyt
Egyptian, please explain which culture this deity arose.
> >Osiris as God and Set as Satan.
>
> NOT at all!!!......... set , seth etc.... ( same name ) was never
> considered completely out right evil!...... in fact in later versions,
> Seth becomes guidian of the gods...... and even protector of RA or RE
> against Apopis ....( most ppl will know of him by his Greek name apophis)
Seth was always an ambivalent god, really -- even to the Pyramid
Texts. When one considers his main function is that of a 'trickster'
god, and who who acts against the grain (god of chaos, storms,
foreigners, and so on), then one can see he serves a particular
purpose in explaining the unexplainable.
> > O my brothers and my sisters, gather around me that I may tell the tale of
> > the Before-Time, of the Golden Age when the gods walked upon the earth
> with
> > us. Know then that in those ancient days, long before even the grandfather
> > of our Pharaoh's grandfather was born, Osiris the great-grandson of Ra sat
> > upon the throne of the gods, ruling over the living world as Ra did over
> the
> > gods. He was the first Pharaoh, and his Queen, Isis, was the first Queen.
> > They ruled for many ages together, for the world was still young and
> > Grandmother Death was not as harsh as she is now.
>
> ( the obove is a more new_er version of egyptian faith !!! )
Correct: there is no Egyptian text referring to these deities which is
translated as above.
> > Set took the box to the great feast of the gods. He waited until Osiris
> had made himself drunk on much beer, then challenged Osiris to a contest of
> > strength.
>
> gods dont get drunk!!!....... mind you hathor got drunk to ...... when RA
> sent her to destroy the human race............. do you really want be to go on about this story?
Well, especially when the original myth didn't require Osiris to
become drunk. Osiris is offered (along with the other party guest) a
beautiful chest by Sutkeh/Seth IF he (or any party guest) can fit into
it.
Wood is a precious commodity in ancient Egypt, BTW, so the offer is
tempting. Seth, of course, had designed the chest taken from Osiris'
own shadow so he knew the fit would be perfect. No one elese could
fit into the chect but Osiris, and when he laid down inside it, Seth
nailed him tight within.
> > Set claimed the throne of Osiris for himself and demanded that Isis be his
> > Queen.
Since Seth is already married to Isis' sister Nephthys, and all of
these gods are brother and siter to one another, this is also a
'modern' intepretation of the old myth -- and not a very good one, I
might add.
> >
> Thoth ...... seems to be just anther separation of the great he/she being
> ......( the best metaphor for that is the first creator, and the creator of the gods etc.... ) called Khepera
Thoth is a creator god by words only in the Hermopolitan theology,
which is a later retelling of creation and is not realted to the deity
Khepera.
> it also seems that RA or RE , is also yet anther separation of Khepera.......
Vice versa.
> some people even feel that puth was a older version of thoth .......
Nope, two separate deities and not syncretized at any point in ancient
Egyptian texts, as I recall.
> on the basis that in early versions of the Egyptian faith ..... hathor
> was married and associated to thoth , and in this version thoth is
> asscotied with Isis
Isis is never married to Thoth, nor is Hathor. Thoth is associated
with Seshat, the goddess of reckoning, and both are 'scribal' deities.
He is also associated with ma'at, but more as a concept rather than a
goddess.
>
> thoth is like the heart of RA ....... puth was the inventor of the
> universe, these are
> all examples of "creator gods"...... which ironically seem to be more of a
> separation
> of 1 deity into many......
Depending upon the theology (Heliopolitan, Memphite, Hermopolitan,
Esnan, etc.) there is always 'one' creator god who is androgynous and
one of his/her first creations is the two genders of being - male and
female. As such, Atum is the creator god of Heliopolis, Ptah in
Memphis, Thoth in Hermopolis, and Neith at Esna.
HTH.
M9MG8
>>MMG8M wrote:
>http://www.omniglot.com/writing/vinca.htm
>but
>http://www.emis.de/monographs/jablan/
I would rather start the rumor they describe the location of buried
treasure so the loonies would have something other than the newsgroups to
occupy their time.
But we would expect decorative markings to have some sort of
symetry or other artistic characteristic.
However as we find generic pottery not the top of the line, finely
worked pottery, at least we expect to find it in the frequency that it was
produced, the symbols are more likely simplifications of expensive
inscriptions in stone. Some of them can be taken as writing because they are
not clearly decorative. But jumping from copies of glyphs to phonemes is
rather a leap.
The guys rich enough to pay stone cutters were also the ones rich
enough to hire people who knew alphabets. Therefore we do not expect the
average pottery to have phonetic inscriptions before it becomes common among
the educated.
--
"What is going on in Palestine today cannot be justified by any moral
code of conduct." Mahatma Ghandi -- 1939
-- The Iron Webmaster, 1050
M9MG8
>The Egyptian Hieroglyphic alphabet demonstrably goes back to the beginning
>of the third millennium BC, the Hebrew (or Jewish) alphabet doesn't go back
>that far, does it?
The Hebrews in Exodus? If you wish to make that hypothesis then
Joseph and family either brough cuniform with them or knew only Egyptian.
How could there be a "hebrew" alphabet?
Hebrews disappear about the middle of Exodus being replaced by
Israelites. The Jews (Iodians (sp)) do not appear until the New Testament.
--
I am not a physician. I am not licensed to tap
the knees of liberals with a mallet.
But I am licensed by Black & Decker.
-- The Iron Webmaster, 18
M9MG8
What would you like me to make of it? A hat?
It is quite a simple proposition. We do not find one in the New
World. China had their own form. When it was inventing some place between
Greece and Persia it was adopted so quickly there wasn't time for the idea
to be reinvented.
--
The buss must go!
-- The Iron Webmaster, 73
Agamemnon
Niphururiya is Nefer-kheferu-re, ie Akenaton. That means I was RIGHT in the
first place.
>
>
> and I simply love the way he/she says this name is this....... and this
is
> that
> when he/she has no cause to!
Ankhesenamen (Egypt) = Asenath (Bible) = Acenxres (Manetho)
Ankhesen = Asen = Acen
Amen = Ath(on) = Xre-s
The name Amen and Aton were dirtily interchangeable. Tutanchamon also wroted
hims name Tutanchatom. The Greek letter combination "Xr" (Hi, ro) is exactly
the same as "Th" based on the law of consonantal shift.
Asenath th wife of Joseph WAS Ankhesenamen the daughter of Akenaton.
The biblical story of Joseph is based on the same Egyptian source as the
Perseus story.
Agamemnon
> "Danny niccoli" <Nic...@niccoli.freeserve.co.uk> wrote in message
news:<a0t3og$9he$1...@newsg1.svr.pol.co.uk>...
> > Katherine Griffis <egy...@griffis-consulting.com> wrote in message
>
> > > It might interest you to know that Egyptian fragments of the original
> > > Akkadian letter between Suppiluliumas and the Egyptian queen have
> > > survived, and were analyzed by Elmar Edel in 1978.
> > >
> > > This was noted in
> > >
> > > Murnane, W. 1990. _The Road to Kadesh: A Historical Interpretation of
> > > the Battle Reliefs of King Sety I at Karnak_ (Second Ed., Revised),
> > > SAOC 42 (Chicago:OI/Univ of Chicago).
> > >
> > > According to Giles, in his _The Amarna Age:Western Asia_ (BACE 5,
> > > 1997:93), Edel seemed convinced by the analyses of all of these
> > > various references that the name "Nibhururiya" referred to Tutankhamun
> > > rather than Akhenaten.
>
> > Agreed, I think HOPE's major point is that aggy tends to run away from
> > he/she self and get to carried away.
> >
> > I believe the letter was written under the name of Dahamunzu........
referring to her recently dead husband Niphururiya........ and it seems to
suggest that Ankhesenamun is the most likely candidate.......... <
>
> "Dahamunzu" is likely the Hittite understanding of /tA Hmt nsw/ "The
> King's wife," FWIW. As a 'name,' it tells us little.
Or Andromeda
Daha-munzu = (An)-dro-meda
> Nicholas Reeves in his most recent book on Akehnaten [_Akhenaten, The
> False Prophet_], for example, has made the argument that Giles and
> Edel are wrong, and that the king so referred to as dead is Akhenaten
> and thus, 'Dahamunzu' is Nefertiti. As such, his work reflects the
> alternate theory, following (I think) the work of Rolf Krauss in _Das
> Ende die Amarnazeit_.
>
> There are several problems with this theory, IMO, and here are two
> points of importance:
>
> As you know, "Dahamunzu" wrote two letters to the Hittite King
> Suppiluliumas requesting a son. At the time of the second letter,
Suppiluliuma regined from 1380-1345 BC which makes him contemporary to
Akenthon and Amenhotep III.
Chronologically this is IMPOSSIBLE.
Suppiluliuma was dead in 1345. Ay did not reign until 1225.
It is most likely that Amenhtep III was the king that died and Dahamunzu's
brother Akenaton usurped the throne. Dahamunzu = Andromeda was then married
off to Perseus.
Agamemnon
> ...
> >>It might interest you to know that Egyptian fragments of the original
> >>Akkadian letter between Suppiluliumas and the Egyptian queen have
> >>survived, and were analyzed by Elmar Edel in 1978.
>
> http://www.geocities.com/farfarer2001
>
> "DEEDS OF SUPPILULIUMA
> Excerpt from Goetze, JCS 10 1956
>
>
> Then he sent his son, Arnuwanda and Zita, the chief pretorian, from
Tegarama ahead
> into the Hurrian country. And when Arnuwanda and Zita came down into the
country,
Lets put some dates to this shall we.
The were only 2 Suppiluliama's 1380-1345, 1200-1190. The last one is
obviously too late.
There were only 2 Arnuvanda's but only one regined after a Suppiluliama
which dates this doccument to 1346-1345 BC. This firmly rules out
Tutanchamon who was NOT even born at this time.
>
============================================================================
==
> they were afraid. And since, in addition, their lord, Nibhururiya had
died,
> therefore the queen of Egypt, who was Dahamunzu, sent a messenger to my
father
Daha-munzu = (An)-Dro-meda
> and wrote to him thus: My husband died. A son I have not. But to thee,
they say,
> the sons are many. If thou wouldst give me one son of thine, he would
become
> my husband. Never shall I pick out a servant of mine and make him my
husband!...I an afraid"
Nibhururiya would have to have died BEFORE Arnuvanda which would mean that
he was Amenhotep III 1386-1349. The death of Amenhotep IV 1350-1334 is
within the margin of error.
Tutanchamon cannot be Amenhotep III's son since Amenhotep IV reigned 16
years and Tut was 8 when he reigned. Also Dahamunzu says she has no son.
If Amenhotep IV is the king that died and the Hittite records are correct
then Tutanchamon was NOT Egyptian but most likely Zannanza the Hittite
prince sent to marry Dahamunzu.
If Amenhotep III is the king that died then Amenhotep IV cannot be his son,
but must be the son of Tutmoses IV. In which case the Perseus myth is
correct. Zannanza is murdered and Dahamunzu = Andromeda is taken by Perseus.
There is now way the Hittie king list could be out by so much that
Tutanchamon who dies in 1325 was the kind that died.
>
============================================================================
======
> When my father heard this, he called for the Great Ones for council
saying:
> "Such a thing has never happened to me in my whole life!" So it happened
that
> my father sent forth to Egypt Hattusa-ziti, the chamberlain with this
order:
> "Go and bring thou the true word back to me! Maybe they deceive me!
> Maybe in fact they do have a son of their lord! Bring thou the true word
back to me!"
> (In the meantime) until Hattusaziti came back from Egypt, my father
finally conquered
> the city of Carchemish. He had besieged it for seven days and on the 8th
day
>
> how formerly the Storm God took the people of Kurustama,
> 3: king [.]
>
> 4-18: [.]
>
> 19-39: [And the gods helped my father]:
> the Sun Goddess of Ari[nna,
> the Storm God of Hatti,
> the Storm God of the Army, and
> Ishtar of the Battlefield]
> (so that) with troops and ch[ariots .]
>
> 22-25: [.]
>
> 26- : And (to) thee [.] Ki[li-Teshup (?) ...].
> But thou [ ...] let not at all ..." Then he went forth into the country of
H[arran]
> and burned it down. And from Harran he went [forth to the (city of )
Wassukanni]
> and [burned down] the country of Wa[ssukanni].
>
> And [from] Wassukanni, [he went to Taita (?)].
> But when the Assyrian [heard that the king of Carchemish had come],
> he [marched forth] with the troops and ch[ariots of Assur (?)] and
> [went] to Taita and [came to the] help of Suttarna [.]
>
> But when the king of Carchemis[h .] Wassukann[I .]
>
>
> Fragment 38 13ii
>
> ....be]fore ....I .... be[came...] in [Hus]ura ....
> But the people of Husura had ...-ed ..... [hos]tile against me ....
> they split [of]f.... in the country of Mitanni ....And the town empty....
> and .... it down to the foundations, The ...he caused to flee....-ed
> and began [to,,,,[ the ....of the land of Hatti......... [in the otwn of)
> Irrita to the side of the river .....And my [bro]ther? was with
him.....-ed.
> And they brought word to him:"....the man of Irrita....-ed
> and the chariots of Hurri were superior [to....but] the gods he[lped...]
>
> Fragment 41 No. 15
>
> [.] the land of Ha[tti .] the countries wh[ich .] very much [.]
> thou even oppressed. [.] thou goest [to] Irrite [. bac]k to Carchemish
[.]"
> And into the town of Ituwa (sic!) [.] And the country of Carchemi[sh .]
> he conquered and it [.] Carchemish [.] troops and chariots ..
>
> Fragment 42
>
> [.] (the town of) [.] But [wh]en to th[em .he .]ed [.] and to them [.]
> troops and [chariots..] surround[ed .] From [(the town of).he went] to
> (the town of) Irrite [...] he came from [Wassu]kanni [.] troops and
> chariots [..] comes [.["
Agamemnon
>
> >> >> >Vowels were NEVER present in the original script.
> >> >>
> >> >> Which is why *you* cannot be certain the "or" became "ura."
> >> >
> >> >WRONG. Which is why I can be 100% certain that the "R" was pronounced
> >with
> >> >"or" or "ura" or in any other combination.
> >>
> >> So it could not possibly have been "ar" or "ir" or "ieru" or any other
> >> vowel combination? Fascinating! I wonder, then, why there are still so
> >> many variant spellings of Egyptian names?
> >
> >FOOL. The fact that no vowels are included in the spelling means that ANY
> >vowel consonant combination was permitted.
>
> Exactly my point. If ANY vowel consonant combination was permitted,
> then you cannot be 100% certain that your choice of which vowels they
> meant is correct. Thank you.
POPPYCOCK. If any vowel consonant combination was permitted it indicates
that the were a vast amount of regional dialects in use and the best way of
making the written language intelligible to all was to remove the vowels
from the written script. The first rule of comparative linguistics is to
remove all the vowels, A, E, I, O, U, Y, H. The second is to simplify the
consonants based on Grimms Law, T=D=TH, R=L, F=W=V=B=P, S=Z=X, G=C=K, M=N.
The third rule is to deuce which consonants orginated from combinations of
other letters, ie. J = IE, IA etc. Go figure.
> >
> >
> >Dont make me laugh. What did you study for. The McDonalds diploma in
Retail
> >Sciences some other joke subject.
>
> Actually, no, my master's degree is in the education of the visually
> impaired, with an emphasis in congenital degenerative eye conditions.
> I am working toward my doctorate, but I'm not in a rush to finish. I
> also have a B.A. in English education and minors in library science
> and adolescent psychology.
In other words you have no qualifications whatsoever in any kind of Physical
Science.
>
> I stated right up front that my interest in ancient Egypt is of
> strictly amateur status. That, of course, has already provided you
Of cause it is.
> with much fodder for your superiority complex. What fun you must be
> having sprinkling your all-cap insults about! Your professionalism is
> truly commendable! (I do hope you are capable of recognizing sarcasm.)
>
> It is quite obvious from your posting style that you flunked Ms.
> Manners' correspondence course. May I recommend the Emily Post tome as
> a quick reference to basic social skills?
Who... ?:
FOOL.
Ankhesenamen was the kings daugher.
Andromeda was the kings daughter.
Cassiopeia's vanity angered the gods
Nefretitis vanity angered the gods because she defaced their imagers and put
hers in their place.
Ankhesenamen was given away to a foreign prince.
Andromeda was the given away to a sea monster.
Someone kill the prince that was sent to take Ankhesenamen
Perseus killed the sea monster and an army which was sent by Danaus or
Proteus to take Andromeda
Shaturna was king of Mittani at the time.
Cetus was the name of the monster since this is the name of the
constallation.
Keferu-re was the name of the Pharoah of Egypt.
Cepheus was the name of the Ethiopian king of Egypt.
> >FOOL. The Egyptian and Hittite records say he had a daugheter.
>
> Actually, he had six by Neferititi, and there is evidence for one by
> Kiya. The parentage of Beketaton, shown with Tiye and of the same
> relative height as some of Akhenaton's daughters, is problematical.
> But yes, you are correct, he had a daughter.
>
>
> > Encyclopaedia
> >Britannica says he had a daughter that was given away in marriage and
names
> >her.
>
> Don't make me laugh when I'm drinking a Diet Coke, please! *wiping off
> my screen*
FOOL
IRRELEVANT. The absence of a secondary record does NOT imply an event
mentioned in another record did not occur. Tutankhamon and Joseph were the
SAME age when these events occurred. This is all that matters. Joseph was
7.5 when he came to Egypt, Tut was 8 or 9 when he became Pharaoh.
Tutankhamon and Joseph both married the daughter of Akenathon whose name was
Acenchres/Asenath/Ankhesenamen. They are one and the same.
>
> And you still did not address how you made the leap in names. Egyptian
> names had meaning. They were sacred. How do you reconcile the meanings
> of the two names Tutankhamon and Zaphnathpaaneah and make them one
> person?
FOOL. Psom-thom-fanich in the original Greek is Amon-tut-anch which is a
rearrangement of Tut-anch-amon. Does everyone have to do you thinking for
you ?
>
>
> > ALL the years given in the bible are given as FRACTIONS
> >because it was written by the GREEKS. If have proven IRREFUTABLY that
this
> >was the case by 3 independent means.
> >
> >People don't live 180 years or father children at the age of 100. The
ages
> >of the patriarchs from Abraham to Joshua are all given in Equinoctial
Years
> >and the bible leaves them as top heavy fractrions. They should all be
halves
> >but the people who copied the text left out the denominator.
>
> Yes, of course the Biblical years are not literal. My point was that
> there is no way you can reconcile the events of Joseph's life with
> Tutankhamon's, since we have his mummy and know his approximate age at
> death.
FOOL. Joseph was FICTITIOUS character BASED on Tutanchamon. Eeven if Tut
died at 19 the character of Joseph can still continue in the myth just like
Herakles, Theseus and Odysseus characters continued after they went to
Tartarus. Joseph was also reported dead by his brothers who said he fell
down a well, so we have the familiar resurrection story.
>
> I have also read a text purporting to "prove" that Yuya, the father of
> Queen Tiye, was Joseph. The author was just as certain that he had it
> right as you are. You two should get together and hurl epithets at one
> another.
FOOL. I have absolute irrefutable dates backed up by a statistical and
mathematical proof on top of everything else.
> >
> >> So Potipherah = Akhenaton, priest of On? And Asenath = his daughter,
> >> mother of Joseph's two sons? *rubbing my temples*
> >
> >Correct. "On" taken to mean Heliopolis the "city of the sun" could also
be
> >the city of Aken-aton since Aton also means "the sun" and this was the
> >primary place of the worship of Aton in Akenaton and Tutanchamons time.
>
> Actually, though we lack direct evidence, Akhenaton probably did spend
> time training as a priest of On, since it was customary for the Horus
> in the Nest to do so. However, On was *not* the primary place of
> worship of the Aton during their lifetimes. That would have been
> Akhetaton, the city built by Akhenaton on virgin territory
> specifically to be the seat of Aton worship--with himself as the only
> intermediary between the god and the people.
The "On" mentioned in the bible at the time of Jose WAS "AkenatON". The
Greeks who wrote the original text of the LXX would have called it
Helliopolis in translation.
>
> Before a gradual promotion during the 18th Dynasty, Aton was a minor
> attribute of the complex sun deity system, representing, as best we
> can tell, the visible disk, or perhaps, as some have speculated, the
> life energy of the sun. On was more traditionally associated with Ra.
>
> (Please note that I do not feel a need to attack your intellectual
> capacity because you got this one wrong.)
> >
FOOL I did not get anything wrong. I told you from the start that the Greek
called Akenation, Heleopilis or cant you read ?
>
> >IDIOT. If you cannot even be bother to read through my scientific proof
then
> >you have NO RIGHT to question them.
>
> What I question is how you can call it scientific proof.
FOOL.
>
> >You are nothing more than a BIGOT.
>
> Yes, yes, we have established that this is your catch-all phrase for
> anyone who does not agree with you. Duly noted and scribbled in the
> margins of my unabridged dictionary.
FOOL.
> >
> >CRETIN. I gave you proof but you openly admit that you cannot even be
> >bothered to read it. YOU ARE A JOKE.
>
> You have already demonstrated your inability to recognize a joke.
> Perhaps you would more accurately call me a pain in your ass. Oh,
> sorry, that should be PAIN IN MY ASS.
FOOL.
> >
>
> >You have LOST the argument because you cannot challenge the undeniable
> >facts.
>
> Again you have things bassackwards. I engaged in an argument because
> your "facts" are deniable. There is no win/lose with intellectual
> zealots and fanatics.
IMBECILE. You have not even look at the facts presented on my web page so
how the hell can you deny the not knowing what they are.
> >
> >You are talking out of your ASSHOLE.
>
> No,I believe that was Jim Carey in Pet Detective.
>
> I myself was typing with my fingers.
I will resist the temptation to make the obvious remark.
>
> >You have not even read a word of my
> >proof so how the hell can you know what it does or does not mention.
Ether
> >refute the FACTS I have given or shut up.
>
> Let me examine my choices:
>
> (1) Expose myself to certain displeasure and tedious reading. Risk
> possible contamination dabbling in the effluvium of a mind run
> horribly amuck.
>
> (2) Eliminate a major source of recent headaches by banishing a
> boorish churl (or churlish boor--either way he deserves the redundancy
> for emphasis) from my immediate sphere of existence.
>
> Er...uh...I pick curtain #2!
>
> Consider this the formal termination of dialog between us. Good luck
> with your windmill tilting, Don Q.
>
IGNORAMUS.
Danny niccoli
Katherine Griffis <egy...@griffis-consulting.com> wrote in message
news:a94bfc19.02010...@posting.google.com...
news:<a0itfu$o00$1...@newsg3.svr.pol.co.uk>...
> > I have often, seen this time and time again.....
> >
> > Poy <poy...@earthlink.net> wrote in message
> > news:yvaW7.17932$Cw3.1...@newsread2.prod.itd.earthlink.net...
>
> > >Christian because Osiris having a son
> >
> > In what context....... In some versions....... Horus is the farther and
is
> > married to Hathor!!
> > ( Hathor seems to be like a early, but different version of Isis,
which in
> > the later version becomes horus's mother!)
>
> Separate deities all. There are at least two Horuses in Egyptian myth
> - Horus the Elder and Horus, son of Isis and Osiris. Horus the Elder
> is the brother of Sutekh (Seth) and both are protective deities of the
> kingship, which tends to make their direct allusions to Christianity a
> tad difficult to maintain.
who are separate deities? ....... what I am saying is that Hathor,
seems like a early version of isis........ I think the "separate deity"
to be a extreme view that they are completely different, when in
in fact they share allot in common, and in principle, and that the earlier
version, was the bases for the other.
reffer to below for details .......
"....Christianity a tad difficult to maintain...." quite rigth.
> > I also address why even the other version is so mixed up.
> >
> > > (Horus that became ruler just like Jesus).
>
> The main connection with Isis and Horus to Christianity (and this is
> VERY late on Egyptian history, such as the Ptolemaic era leading to
> the early Christian era is that Isis nursing Horus-as-Child
> (Harpocrates) _statues_ were converted to Madonna and Child statuary
> by the early church in the Mediterranean world and eventually to the
> Near East. Since Isis worship spread to the Mediterranean did not
> occur until the Ptolemaic era, the analogy is tenuous as to king=
> Horus=Jesus. Better to look to the cult and myths of Mithras for the
> resurrected as god-king, IMO.
>
agreeded
> > Although its almost impossible to ascertain, what horus's original
true/
> > earliest form was Horus, was not of Egyptian origin, and was in fact
the god of war!
>
> No, you are thinking of Montu here, who was also a falcon-headed
> deity, but totally separate from Horus or his mythos. If noyt
> Egyptian, please explain which culture this deity arose.
Maybe ? Montu was certinerly the god of war and sports in fact there
is a temple at karnak, I think? ........ I do know that montu was being
worshiped at Hermonthis , but was he worshiped during pre-dynestical
times?...... having said that horus was also haha maybe I am wrong, has
Hierakonpolis there are cerntily evidence of worship of horus for example:
"The oldest life-sized human statue: a courtier or priest from the temple
of Horus.c.3000 BC"
and
"The golden hawk head of the cult image of Horus. c. 2300 BC Unique
for its beauty, it is also the oldest (known) cult image in existence."
are both found!!!
So most likely I am wrong, ( I read somewhere that in pre-dynestical
Egypt that it was invaded .... don't know by whom..... and its from
there horus came from and was originally a god of war ) Having
said that, wasn't he originaly a/is the sky god!
> > >Osiris as God and Set as Satan.
> >
> > NOT at all!!!......... set , seth etc.... ( same name ) was never
> > considered completely out right evil!...... in fact in later versions,
> > Seth becomes guidian of the gods...... and even protector of RA or RE
> > against Apopis ....( most ppl will know of him by his Greek name
apophis)
>
> Seth was always an ambivalent god, really -- even to the Pyramid
> Texts. When one considers his main function is that of a 'trickster'
> god, and who who acts against the grain (god of chaos, storms,
> foreigners, and so on), then one can see he serves a particular
> purpose in explaining the unexplainable.
yes ....... but he was also the protector of RA..... !! against apopis
to true
> Wood is a precious commodity in ancient Egypt, BTW, so the offer is
> tempting. Seth, of course, had designed the chest taken from Osiris'
> own shadow so he knew the fit would be perfect. No one elese could
> fit into the chect but Osiris, and when he laid down inside it, Seth
> nailed him tight within.
in otherwords hope your/our brother is not seth!!
> > > Set claimed the throne of Osiris for himself and demanded that Isis be
his
> > > Queen.
>
> Since Seth is already married to Isis' sister Nephthys, and all of
> these gods are brother and siter to one another, this is also a
> 'modern' intepretation of the old myth -- and not a very good one, I
> might add.
>
> > >
> > Thoth ...... seems to be just anther separation of the great he/she
being
> > ......( the best metaphor for that is the first creator, and the
creator of the gods etc.... ) called Khepera
>
> Thoth is a creator god by words only in the Hermopolitan theology,
> which is a later retelling of creation and is not realted to the deity
> Khepera.
I disagree, Kherpera, thoth, ptah, Ra/RE...... are all forms and examples
of what I call "creator gods", or rather elements of the creator god in
different
phase's, ( even those really its more of a he/she being.)....... the
practal
up shoot for the Egyptian is that it explains the SUN ....... well
suppose to!
Has kherpera was shown as a beetle for a head, and the scarab and the
beetle
was sacred to him, this actually isn't at all suprising, has the Egyptians
believed
that from a "watery chaos" .... (I think its a watery one ?) kherpera was
formed
and is self created, and was the father of ALL the other gods: also humans
sprang from "his/she" eyes via tears....... etc....... the reason for the
beetle is more
symbolic even those the symbolism, is rather flawed!!..... that is
Egyptians
mistook the dun beetle , for sponatoues creation, has they oberveved "dun"
being rolled up, and from there perspective ..... afterwards saw life/new
born
come from it...... of course this is a load of "crap" no pun intended, as
within the dun, is the "eggs" of the beetle...... which puts a bummer
to the "sponatoues creativity of the beetle"......hence the meaning of
khepera ... " To become, to turn, to roll"
anyway how does this connect thoth with kherpera?
well has Kherpera is a phase of tmu, that is the might-sun, when he
"becomes"
the rising sun ..... or horus in the horizon, he is also described as "
khepera
in the morning Ra at mid-day and tmu in the evening"........ and ptah is
accostied
with (or being a form of) thoth ( don't confuse this with the Greek
version of
thoth ) thoth was ....
i.e. the inventor of writings....... further more thoth was a
personification of
intelligence, he was also the inventor of writings, letters arts and
science,
has well as being a skilled astronomer and in mathematics...... thoth had
many
other titles Inc ......" maker of law" ....... " begetter of law " and
lord of law
and is also considered has the heart of Ra....... and above I show how ra
is linked to kherpera!!
> > it also seems that RA or RE , is also yet anther separation of
Khepera.......
>
> Vice versa.
>
> > some people even feel that puth was a older version of thoth .......
>
> Nope, two separate deities and not syncretized at any point in ancient
> Egyptian texts, as I recall.
the book of the dead ........!!, although it doesn't say ptah as being
thoth ......... sorry for the deranged spelling !
> > on the basis that in early versions of the Egyptian faith ..... hathor
> > was married and associated to thoth , and in this version thoth is
> > asscotied with Isis
>
> Isis is never married to Thoth, nor is Hathor. Thoth is associated
> with Seshat, the goddess of reckoning, and both are 'scribal' deities.
no! ....... hathor was the goddess of Love mirth and beauty has well
as fertility....... this is clear, due to a temple at denberah! ..... also
note that at thebes , she becomes the goddess of the dead! ....
lots of Isis links!
and to further this it seems that the name means the " house of horus"
referring to her role as a sky goddess......... also hathor was considered
as the mother of the pharaoh ....... who using the name " son of hathor"
evidence of this is seen in the names of both pepi I and meremre who
had the title "son of hathor" ...... and has the pharaoh is considered
to be horus ....... and horus later is the son of Isis ...... this is good
evidence!
> He is also associated with ma'at, but more as a concept rather than a
> goddess.
> >
> > thoth is like the heart of RA ....... puth was the inventor of the
> > universe, these are
> > all examples of "creator gods"...... which ironically seem to be more
of a
> > separation
> > of 1 deity into many......
>
> Depending upon the theology (Heliopolitan, Memphite, Hermopolitan,
> Esnan, etc.) there is always 'one' creator god who is androgynous and
> one of his/her first creations is the two genders of being - male and
> female. As such, Atum is the creator god of Heliopolis, Ptah in
> Memphis, Thoth in Hermopolis, and Neith at Esna.
yes ....... but they also show links to being related!
Doug Weller
says...
>
> >Goddess cult my foot. There was NEVER any such cult in any part of the world
> >ever. The goddess cult was and invention of Robert Graves back in the early
> >1900's.
>
> You seem to be saying something totally absurd here, so I must be
> misunderstanding. What is your definition of "goddess cult"? The
> numerous " Venus" figures, found in Cro-Magnon sites throughout Europe
> and Asia, would certainly seem to indicate that there was some sort of
> Earth Mother/ Goddess that was given homage. Or do you explain those
> away as simply a bored hunter's attempt to sculpt his girlfriend or
> invent Playboy?
>
Hope, I don't know who you are quoting. If it is Agammenon, he is historically
illiterate, but right about Graves.
Gimbutas' ideas are hotly refuted by a number of people such as Hawkes, Hodder,
Fagan and Meskell. Female figurines (male, androgynous etc figurines being
ignored} were interpreted as proof that early humans worshipped a
universal female deity until invading Indo-Europeans brought with them
male gods. In some of Gimbutas' writings "every figure that is not
phallic - and some that clearly are - are taken as symbols of the
Goddess. This includes parallel lines, lozenges, zigzags, spirals, double
axes, butterflies, pigs and pillars." (Meskell 1995). More recently many
other interpretations have been put forward, eg that they were
territorial markers, teaching devices, magical tools, identification
tokens, teaching devices, primitive contracts, objects used in birthing
rituals, and so on. (Meskell 1995). Some archaeologists have argued that
certain 素emale' figures may not be female and even that some have been
looked at upside down and are actually male phalluses (Bisson and White,
1997). (the preceding from a paper I wrote on trying to discern religion from
material culture)
Bisson, M. and White, R.(1007) 詮emale Imagery from the Paleolothic: The
Case of Grimaldi', Culture 1997 but found at
http://www.insticeagestudies.com/readings/techsoci/tech01.html
Meskell, L, (1995) 賎oddesses, Gimbutas and 'New Age' archaeology',
Antiquity Vol.69 No.262
See also: http://www.holysmoke.org/fem/fem0156.htm
Doug
--
Doug Weller member of moderation panel sci.archaeology.moderated
Submissions to: sci-archaeol...@medieval.org
Doug's Archaeology Site: http://www.ramtops.demon.co.uk
Co-owner UK-Schools mailing list: email me for details
Danny niccoli
I am
wrong is furthering my argument, that this is far from resolved!!......)
she provides a argument for the other side of the court has it were, and
shows some in her opinions of why these other "opinion's" are wrong...
or at least have problems.
regardless the real argument is that its far from certain which is why there
are
reasoning.......... left , right , and center..... and its for this reason
that I find aggie's approach totally non_scientific!...... ( as he asserts
as if there
is one reason's ALONE!!
Danny Niccoli :
> > Agreed, I think HOPE's major point is that aggy tends to run away from
> > he/she self and get to carried away.
> >
> > I believe the letter was written under the name of Dahamunzu........
> > referring
> > to her recently dead husband Niphururiya........ and it seems to
suggest
> > that
> > Ankhesenamun is the most likely candidate.......... doesn't change
things
> > those, aggy did get the facts partly wrong!
>aggie writies:
> Niphururiya is Nefer-kheferu-re, ie Akenaton.
Why??....... I see no reason ...... explain your meachism why ? [ again
if
so ]what is the source of this Nefer_kheferu_re ....... do you { really )
mean Neferneferuaten ?? who is actually smenkhkare! ...... who WITH
akenaton was crown co_regent at about 16. smenkhkare takes up
nefertiti name "neferneferuaten" and which is more interesting nefertiti
"disappears"!.........
there is also some "evidence" ( if you call it that ) that he continued to
rule after akenaton's death!!! ........ apparently there is reference's
to him in certain tombs that suggest that he did out live akenaton !!!!
.......
taken from a paper
".......Cyril Aldred, a prominent Egyptologist who has written several
books about Akhenaten, uses the argument that Smenkhkare must
have been born three years before Akhenaten's reign began, thereby
reducing the likelihood of his being Akhenaten's child (291).
Yet another possibility is that one of Akhenaten's many sisters was
the mother of Smenkhkare (Redford 192).
Because Smenkhkare appeared at the same time that Nefertiti
seemingly vanished from view, and because he shared the title
"Beloved of Akhenaten" with Nefertiti, some scholars believe
that Nefertiti and Smenkhkare were one and the same
(Reeves 22-23). Nefertiti did have more power than
many of the other queens in Egypt, and is often depicted wearing
certain crowns that were normally reserved for kings (Robins 53-54).
Thus, it is perhaps not too out of line to think that she might have
disguised herself as a man and shared kingship with Akhenaten.
However, Redford notes that, for one thing, it would be odd even
for the Amarna family to have Nefertiti posing as a man and marrying
her own daughter (192). Not only that, but to deny the existence of
Smenkhkare, one would have to ignore one major finding: the body
in Tomb 55........"
>That means I was RIGHT in the
> first place.
nope !!.......... if Niphururiya is or was Akenaton...... then Dahamunzu
as to be Nefertiti not only that, "Dahamunzu " but also Smenkhkare ,
which only ignores the tomb 55!
also ..........
"......Tutankhaten's origins are just as hazy as Smenkhkare's. Some
would claim that he was Kiya's son by Akhenaten (Reeves 9). However,
if Tutankhaten and Smenkhkare were really brothers, as the bodies
of the two suggest, then this would again bring up the question of the
likelihood of Smenkhkare being Akhenaten's son.
One theory is that Tutankhaten was Akhenaten's brother. That would
lead to the conclusion that both Smenkhkare and Tutankhaten were
sons of queen Tiye. They both bear a strong resemblance to certain
portraits of Tiye, but Tiye may have been too old to have children by
the time Tutankhaten was born (Aldred 293-294). Another problem
is that Amenhotep III was, in all probability, well dead by this time,
although there is much speculation about a co-regency between
Akhenaten and his father (Aldred 169-182; Clayton 120-121).
One extremely intriguing discovery is an inscription which calls
Tutankhaten "The king's son, of his loins" (Aldred 287). This
could be interpreted in a number of ways. One is that Tutankhaten
really was Akhenaten's child. However, this possibility has already
been mostly ruled out. Another possibility is that Amenhotep
III remained virile and active even in his last years and was able
to father Tutankhaten just before he died (assuming that there was a
co-regency). Yet a third possibility is that Tutankhaten was
Smenkhkare's son. If Smenkhkare fathered Tutankhaten the same
year that he married Merytaten, and then went on to outlive Akhenaten
by about three years, then that would make Tutankhaten just barely]
seven when he came to the throne of Egypt (Tutankhaten was thought
to have come to the throne when he was eight or nine). ........"
In short Dahamunzu = ankhesenamun ( daugther of akenaten ) who
became the wife of tutankhamun, note ankesenpaaten is ankesenamun
and that SHE DID become a queen with her daddy akenaten!!!! in the
15 yr ok akenaten rule.
then ankesenamum marries "smenkhare" who ever it is??? and then
after marries tutankhamun
so Niphururiya seems more LIKELY to be tutankhamun NOT
akenaten!!!
> >
> >
> > and I simply love the way he/she says this name is this....... and this
> is
> > that
> > when he/she has no cause to!
>
> Ankhesenamen (Egypt) = Asenath (Bible) = Acenxres (Manetho)
ankhesenamen was" ....asenath the daugther of poti-pherah priest of on.."
NOT the daughter of the pharaoh says the bible, also the only link you
have if so ....... is via name ....... lots of people have the same name
there is no reason to assume that this ankhesenamen is the SAME
as the bible!!
> Ankhesen = Asen = Acen
>
> Amen = Ath(on) = Xre-s
>
> The name Amen and Aton were dirtily interchangeable. Tutanchamon also
wroted
> hims name Tutanchatom. The Greek letter combination "Xr" (Hi, ro) is
exactly
> the same as "Th" based on the law of consonantal shift.
>
> Asenath th wife of Joseph WAS Ankhesenamen the daughter of Akenaton.
that will probably make tutankhamun joseph ....... mmmm no!!!
from the bible:
Gen 41:45:
"And pharaoh called joseph's name zaphnath-paaneah: and he gave him to wife
asenath the daugther of poti-pherah priest of on. And joseph went out over
all
the land of egypt."
But Gen 41:46 clearly shows that joseph not to be tutankhamun!!!!
"And joseph was 30 yrs old when he ......"
tutankhamum was never 30!!!!
> The biblical story of Joseph is based on the same Egyptian source as the
> Perseus story.
>
if this was so then the worship should by the most part be the same.
Danny niccoli
I am
wrong is furthering my argument, that this is far from resolved!!......)
she provides a argument for the other side of the court has it were, and
shows some in her opinions of why these other "opinion's" are wrong...
or at least have problems.
regardless the real argument is that its far from certain which is why there
are
reasoning.......... left , right , and center..... and its for this reason
that I find aggie's approach totally non_scientific!...... ( as he asserts
as if there
is one reason's ALONE!!
Danny Niccoli :
> > Agreed, I think HOPE's major point is that aggy tends to run away from
> > he/she self and get to carried away.
> >
> > I believe the letter was written under the name of Dahamunzu........
> > referring
> > to her recently dead husband Niphururiya........ and it seems to
suggest
> > that
> > Ankhesenamun is the most likely candidate.......... doesn't change
things
> > those, aggy did get the facts partly wrong!
>aggie writies:
taken from a paper
also ..........
> >
> >
> > and I simply love the way he/she says this name is this....... and this
> is
> > that
> > when he/she has no cause to!
>
from the bible:
Gen 41:45:
tutankhamum was never 30!!!!
Katherine Griffis <egy...@griffis-consulting.com> wrote in message
news:a94bfc19.02010...@posting.google.com...
Katherine Griffis
> Katherine Griffis <egy...@griffis-consulting.com> wrote in message
Danny had said:
> > > In what context....... In some versions....... Horus is the farther and
> is married to Hathor!!
> > > ( Hathor seems to be like a early, but different version of Isis,
> which in the later version becomes horus's mother!)
> >
> > Separate deities all. There are at least two Horuses in Egyptian myth
> > - Horus the Elder and Horus, son of Isis and Osiris. Horus the Elder
> > is the brother of Sutekh (Seth) and both are protective deities of the
> > kingship, which tends to make their direct allusions to Christianity a
> > tad difficult to maintain.
>
> who are separate deities? ....... what I am saying is that Hathor,
> seems like a early version of isis........
But she isn't: Isis _assumes_ qualities of Hathor, during the later
period of Egyptian history, who preceded Isis in both historical cult
and functional importance by some several hundred years. Osiris was a
minor deity during the Old Kingdom, without a developed cult (as best
as can be discovered), and Isis was an integal part of that cult. His
prominence arose during the Middle Kingdom and with it, that of Isis.
> I think the "separate deity"
> to be a extreme view that they are completely different, when in
> in fact they share allot in common, and in principle, and that the earlier
> version, was the bases for the other.
Not at all: Isis was originally conceived of as an 'enchantress'
goddess who was assimilated into Osiride cults as Osiris' consort. Her
star rose as a goddess beginning in the late Middle Kingdom, it is
thought, but not earlier. Hathor, OTOH, was originally conceived as a
goddess of the day sky, who acted as mother, consort and daughter of
Ra. Her cult arose during the 4th Dynasty of the Old Kingdom,
although her cult standard is known from even predynastic times. She
provided some of the original 'fertility goddess' imagery, biut did
not have the same powers or function as Isis. Their mythos is totally
different and the assimilation of Hathor INTO Isis is a product of the
Late Period.
> > > Although its almost impossible to ascertain, what horus's original
> true/
> > > earliest form was Horus, was not of Egyptian origin, and was in fact
> the god of war!
> >
> > No, you are thinking of Montu here, who was also a falcon-headed
> > deity, but totally separate from Horus or his mythos. If noyt
> > Egyptian, please explain which culture this deity arose.
>
> Maybe ? Montu was certinerly the god of war and sports in fact there
> is a temple at karnak, I think? ........ I do know that montu was being
> worshiped at Hermonthis , but was he worshiped during pre-dynestical
> times?...... having said that horus was also haha maybe I am wrong,
Er, who is 'haha' as a deity?
> has
> Hierakonpolis there are cerntily evidence of worship of horus for example:
>
> "The oldest life-sized human statue: a courtier or priest from the temple
> of Horus.c.3000 BC"
>
> and
>
> "The golden hawk head of the cult image of Horus. c. 2300 BC Unique
> for its beauty, it is also the oldest (known) cult image in existence."
>
> are both found!!!
Horus is known from predynastic times, but I am not sure that Montu is
also so ancient a deity.
> So most likely I am wrong, ( I read somewhere that in pre-dynestical
> Egypt that it was invaded .... don't know by whom.....
I am not aware of any archaeological evidence which says Egypt was
'invaded' in predynastic times, so a citation would be good here.
> and its from
> there horus came from and was originally a god of war ) Having
> said that, wasn't he originaly a/is the sky god!
Horus /Hrw/ is a falcon-headed sky god and remained so throughout
ancient Egyptian history.
> > > >Osiris as God and Set as Satan.
> > >
> > > NOT at all!!!......... set , seth etc.... ( same name ) was never
> > > considered completely out right evil!...... in fact in later versions,
> > > Seth becomes guidian of the gods...... and even protector of RA or RE
> > > against Apopis ....( most ppl will know of him by his Greek name
> apophis)
> >
> > Seth was always an ambivalent god, really -- even to the Pyramid
> > Texts. When one considers his main function is that of a 'trickster'
> > god, and who who acts against the grain (god of chaos, storms,
> > foreigners, and so on), then one can see he serves a particular
> > purpose in explaining the unexplainable.
>
> yes ....... but he was also the protector of RA..... !! against apopis
Thus, my comment about his 'ambivalence.' Seth is originally a
protector of the king and his serekh is to be found atop some of the
early kings of Egypt, and is joined with Horus on Peribsen's serekh,
for example. This is why the attitude to Seth is ambivalent as well
-- he enjoyed times of high popularity and calumny.
> > > ......( the best metaphor for that is the first creator, and the
> creator of the gods etc.... ) called Khepera
> >
> > Thoth is a creator god by words only in the Hermopolitan theology,
> > which is a later retelling of creation and is not realted to the deity
> > Khepera.
>
> I disagree, Kherpera, thoth, ptah, Ra/RE...... are all forms and examples
> of what I call "creator gods", or rather elements of the creator god in
> different phase's, ( even those really its more of a he/she being.)
Thus my comment about an 'androgynous' being.
> > > on the basis that in early versions of the Egyptian faith ..... hathor
> > > was married and associated to thoth , and in this version thoth is
> > > asscotied with Isis
> >
> > Isis is never married to Thoth, nor is Hathor. Thoth is associated
> > with Seshat, the goddess of reckoning, and both are 'scribal' deities.
>
> no! ....... hathor was the goddess of Love mirth and beauty has well
> as fertility....... this is clear, due to a temple at denberah! ..... also
> note that at thebes , she becomes the goddess of the dead! ....
> lots of Isis links!
Far more goddesses than Hathor and Isis are "goddesses of the dead,"
FWIW. Nephthys, Neith, Selket, Isis, Hathor, Mehetweret, Meretseger,
etc. -- ALL had funereal functions as well as support for the living
so that is not a 'linking point' from one goddess to the next.
Day Brown
The platter in question is similar to ritual bread platters
still in use in the worship of Demeter. It has four very
obvious lines of writing, none of which is ideographic,
but very abstract. There are similarly inscrutable spindle
whorls of the Dimini, 5000 BCE, which again are antecedent
to Greek versions with prayers inscribed to Demeter.
I dunno what they say, but what they show looks like
alphabetic writing.
Day Brown
which dealt with the fact that Gimbutas went around to obscure
corners of Europe collating oral myth much as etymologists have
done with language to derive original forms.
Nor have I seen her critics come to grip with the idea that the
androgynous forms you mention are homosexual or transvestite,
even though we have Herodutus specifically mention Scythian
transvestite clerics.
Most telling is the description of items as 'double axes'. We
have a fine example at Varna, where these 'axes' were made of
thin hammered gold with handles about 1cm in diameter. You'd
have a hard time decapitating a chicken with such a tool. What
she has correctly deduced, is that these were ritual wands of
no practical use whatever, and representative of butterflys,
and related to innumerable Native European myths regarding the
emergence from a 'dead' crysalis into a new reincarnated life.
Doug Weller wrote:
> Gimbutas' ideas are hotly refuted by a number of people such as Hawkes, Hodder,
> Fagan and Meskell. Female figurines (male, androgynous etc figurines being
> ignored} were interpreted as proof that early humans worshipped a
> universal female deity until invading Indo-Europeans brought with them
> male gods. In some of Gimbutas' writings "every figure that is not
> phallic - and some that clearly are - are taken as symbols of the
> Goddess. This includes parallel lines, lozenges, zigzags, spirals, double
> axes, butterflies, pigs and pillars." (Meskell 1995). More recently many
> other interpretations have been put forward, eg that they were
> territorial markers, teaching devices, magical tools, identification
> tokens, teaching devices, primitive contracts, objects used in birthing
> rituals, and so on. (Meskell 1995). Some archaeologists have argued that
> certain ?female' figures may not be female and even that some have been
Danny niccoli
> "Danny niccoli" <Nic...@niccoli.freeserve.co.uk> wrote in message
news:<a0viea$7m8$1...@newsg3.svr.pol.co.uk>...
> > Katherine Griffis <egy...@griffis-consulting.com> wrote in message
>
> Danny had said:
> > > > In what context....... In some versions....... Horus is the farther
and
> > is married to Hathor!!
> > > > ( Hathor seems to be like a early, but different version of Isis,
> > which in the later version becomes horus's mother!)
> > >
> > > Separate deities all. There are at least two Horuses in Egyptian myth
> > > - Horus the Elder and Horus, son of Isis and Osiris. Horus the Elder
> > > is the brother of Sutekh (Seth) and both are protective deities of the
> > > kingship, which tends to make their direct allusions to Christianity a
> > > tad difficult to maintain.
> >
> > who are separate deities? ....... what I am saying is that Hathor,
> > seems like a early version of isis........
>
> But she isn't: Isis _assumes_ qualities of Hathor, during the later
> period of Egyptian history, who preceded Isis in both historical cult
> and functional importance by some several hundred years. Osiris was a
> minor deity during the Old Kingdom, without a developed cult (as best
> as can be discovered), and Isis was an integal part of that cult. His
> prominence arose during the Middle Kingdom and with it, that of Isis.
aww so what ur saying is that isis and hathor co_existed thus 1 cant
evolve to the other!
also as hathor lives on longer too.
however elements of hathor do get incorprated into isis in later times.
> > I think the "separate deity"
> > to be a extreme view that they are completely different, when in
> > in fact they share allot in common, and in principle, and that the
earlier
> > version, was the bases for the other.
>
> Not at all: Isis was originally conceived of as an 'enchantress'
> goddess who was assimilated into Osiride cults as Osiris' consort. Her
> star rose as a goddess beginning in the late Middle Kingdom, it is
> thought, but not earlier. Hathor, OTOH, was originally conceived as a
> goddess of the day sky, who acted as mother, consort and daughter of
> Ra. Her cult arose during the 4th Dynasty of the Old Kingdom,
> although her cult standard is known from even predynastic times. She
> provided some of the original 'fertility goddess' imagery, biut did
> not have the same powers or function as Isis. Their mythos is totally
> different and the assimilation of Hathor INTO Isis is a product of the
> Late Period.
so it does happen ......... but to be more accurte elements of hathor
are added to isis ??? would u agree with this?? at a latter period
even so ......... one may have been a possible template of the other??
on some level? yet differ and they at a time did co_exist thus
no evolution from 1 to anther. ........ ( even those cetian aspects
of the diety many be combined)
> > > > Although its almost impossible to ascertain, what horus's original
> > true/
> > > > earliest form was Horus, was not of Egyptian origin, and was in
fact
> > the god of war!
> > >
> > > No, you are thinking of Montu here, who was also a falcon-headed
> > > deity, but totally separate from Horus or his mythos. If noyt
> > > Egyptian, please explain which culture this deity arose.
> >
> > Maybe ? Montu was certinerly the god of war and sports in fact there
> > is a temple at karnak, I think? ........ I do know that montu was
being
> > worshiped at Hermonthis , but was he worshiped during pre-dynestical
> > times?...... having said that horus was also haha maybe I am wrong,
>
> Er, who is 'haha' as a deity?
no haha has in laugthing ........ as in realising that i have shown a
reasoning
that if correct goes againt my other 1st coment.
> > has
> > Hierakonpolis there are cerntily evidence of worship of horus for
example:
> >
> > "The oldest life-sized human statue: a courtier or priest from the
temple
> > of Horus.c.3000 BC"
> >
> > and
> >
> > "The golden hawk head of the cult image of Horus. c. 2300 BC Unique
> > for its beauty, it is also the oldest (known) cult image in existence."
> >
> > are both found!!!
>
> Horus is known from predynastic times, but I am not sure that Montu is
> also so ancient a deity.
i will check?
> > So most likely I am wrong, ( I read somewhere that in pre-dynestical
> > Egypt that it was invaded .... don't know by whom.....
>
> I am not aware of any archaeological evidence which says Egypt was
> 'invaded' in predynastic times, so a citation would be good here.
i am trying to find some good web sites on this ? ....... note some 1
making
it up ....
> > and its from
> > there horus came from and was originally a god of war ) Having
> > said that, wasn't he originaly a/is the sky god!
>
> Horus /Hrw/ is a falcon-headed sky god and remained so throughout
> ancient Egyptian history.
yes
> > > > >Osiris as God and Set as Satan.
> > > >
> > > > NOT at all!!!......... set , seth etc.... ( same name ) was never
> > > > considered completely out right evil!...... in fact in later
versions,
> > > > Seth becomes guidian of the gods...... and even protector of RA or
RE
> > > > against Apopis ....( most ppl will know of him by his Greek name
> > apophis)
> > >
> > > Seth was always an ambivalent god, really -- even to the Pyramid
> > > Texts. When one considers his main function is that of a 'trickster'
> > > god, and who who acts against the grain (god of chaos, storms,
> > > foreigners, and so on), then one can see he serves a particular
> > > purpose in explaining the unexplainable.
> >
> > yes ....... but he was also the protector of RA..... !! against apopis
>
> Thus, my comment about his 'ambivalence.' Seth is originally a
> protector of the king and his serekh is to be found atop some of the
> early kings of Egypt, and is joined with Horus on Peribsen's serekh,
> for example. This is why the attitude to Seth is ambivalent as well
> -- he enjoyed times of high popularity and calumny.
agreed........ I was only noteing Seth righteous side if u call it that.
> > > > ......( the best metaphor for that is the first creator, and the
> > creator of the gods etc.... ) called Khepera
> > >
> > > Thoth is a creator god by words only in the Hermopolitan theology,
> > > which is a later retelling of creation and is not realted to the deity
> > > Khepera.
> >
> > I disagree, Kherpera, thoth, ptah, Ra/RE...... are all forms and
examples
> > of what I call "creator gods", or rather elements of the creator god in
> > different phase's, ( even those really its more of a he/she being.)
>
> Thus my comment about an 'androgynous' being.
yes but that's not my disagreement mine disagreement is that u think
thoth and kherpera have nothing to do with each other yet i do
hence the above and the rest ........ ref to orignal text. ( there
IS a relationship between them )
> > > > on the basis that in early versions of the Egyptian faith .....
hathor
> > > > was married and associated to thoth , and in this version thoth
is
> > > > asscotied with Isis
> > >
> > > Isis is never married to Thoth, nor is Hathor. Thoth is associated
> > > with Seshat, the goddess of reckoning, and both are 'scribal' deities.
> >
> > no! ....... hathor was the goddess of Love mirth and beauty has well
> > as fertility....... this is clear, due to a temple at denberah! .....
also
> > note that at thebes , she becomes the goddess of the dead! ....
> > lots of Isis links!
>
> Far more goddesses than Hathor and Isis are "goddesses of the dead,"
> FWIW. Nephthys, Neith, Selket, Isis, Hathor, Mehetweret, Meretseger,
> etc. -- ALL had funereal functions as well as support for the living
> so that is not a 'linking point' from one goddess to the next.
ok true , which is why i added more than 1 link in the form
".......and to further this it seems that the name means the " house
of horus" referring to her role as a sky goddess......... also hathor
was considered as the mother of the pharaoh ....... who using the
name " son of hathor" evidence of this is seen in the names of both
pepi I and meremre who had the title "son of hathor" ...... and has
the pharaoh is considered to be horus ....... and horus later is the son
of Isis ...... this is good evidence!......"
so rather this changes my original comment some what
Isis MAY have been based on SOME of hathor's characteristics
would u agree???
but no evolve into 1 to the other .
steve
>
>The Vinca were in SE Europe in the 6th mil BCE.
so what?
>The platter in question is similar to ritual bread platters
>still in use in the worship of Demeter.
so what?
>It has four very obvious lines of writing,
The word "obvious" is a great tip off that the speculation is subjective
and no good explanation will be forthcoming.
>none of which is ideographic, but very abstract.
Try explaining the difference between decoration and ornament
then ask yourself why you aren't using terms like phoneme and
morpheme to make the difference clearer.
>There are similarly inscrutable spindle whorls of the Dimini,
>5000 BCE, which again are antecedent to Greek versions with
>prayers inscribed to Demeter.
What's the difference between a whorl and a whirl
and a wave of the hand?
>
>I dunno what they say, but what they show looks like alphabetic writing.
Before you decide maybe you should show and tell us
what alphabetic writing looks like...what is it that
makes it what it is...what is it that makes it not
something else.
How would you procede to tell us the difference between an alphabet,
a syllabary, a decoration, a script and a charm bracelet?
>
>M9MG8 wrote:
>>
>> On Mon, 31 Dec 2001, Day Brown wrote:
>>
>> >MMG8M wrote:
>> >> This alphabet invention has occurred only once in human history.
>>
>> >What do you make of the Vinca platter found near Gradnesnica?
>>
>> What would you like me to make of it? A hat?
>>
>>It is quite a simple proposition. We do not find one in the New World.
Some people think the Mayans had a written language...they must be wrong...
http://www.halfmoon.org/writing.html
>> China had their own form. When it was inventing some place between
>> Greece and Persia it was adopted so quickly there wasn't time for the idea
>> to be reinvented.
steve