Looking for correct model year of 196x "tub" manifold 426 NASCAR Hemi engines
Detroit City
several nascar Usenet sites but haven't gotten a good response
yet. Maybe one or two of the many Mopar high-performance
experts here can help me. It'd be a *lot* easier* if I could
post pictures but I can't.
So, I posted some illustrative pictures to:
alt.binaries.pictures.vehicles
Using my handle Detroit City. Here is the text part of my
question/request:
I am looking for information relating to the Dodge and
Plymouth 426 NASCAR Hemi engines, as first raced in 1964, then
modified considerably in later years. As described below, I
would like to know the correct *model* year, *not* the
calendar year and *not* the year first raced.
I am aware that the original 1964 engine, as ran by Richard
Petty in his win at Daytona in 1964, had a simple dual-plane
runner intake manifold. But, at some later date, racers began
building engines with a very large, square intake manifold
with a depression for the Holley 4-barrel (for hood
clearance).
This square manifold is thought by some to be a ram manifold,
ala the Short Ram dual-Holley drag race engine, but that is
incorrect. I've heard it called by several names, the most
popular of which are "Tub manifold" and "rat roaster". There
is one of these engines in the Walter P. Museum, in Auburn
Hils, Michigan, USA. It is documented as a 1964, but that is
*clearly* incorrect.
The Museum also houses a 1964 Plymouth Belvedere 2-door
hardtop with the Richard Petty-style NASCAR Hemi in it, which
has the runner manifold and cowl-air induction system. I have
also seen 1:6 scale models of the engine in question, and they
are dated "1964-65", but Chrysler sat out most/all of the 1965
racing season boycotting NASCARs rules restricting use of the
Hemi engine (isn't it always that way? somebody invents a
faster car, and it gets banned!) I am convinced that it is
*not* a 1964, and I'm very suspicious of 1965.
I think the *model* first year for the "rat roaster" 426
NASCAR Hemi engine is 1966, but can't prove it. My reference
books are no help, either. They don't talk about NASCAR Hemis
after 1964 at all, and have no pictures.
The manifolds I am interested in are aluminum two-piece
castings bolted together. The larger piece goes into the
valley of the V-8 engine and connects to the intake ports in
the heads. The smaller piece is about a 3/4" thick top plate.
I have a number of pictures of this later version of the 426
NASCAR Hemi engine. I have scanned a single, right-front 3/4
view of this engine on an engine stand from a book. The book
dates the engine as a 1966. I have a *big* gap in my
collection from there - the next series of pictures are of
1969 Dodge Daytonas, but the manifold appears to be identical,
or at least very similar, to the one documented as a 1966.
Can anyone positively ID *earliest* model year this engine for
me (*not* calendar year and *not* racing season, please!)? If
there are specific Web sites that discuss it, I would
appreciate a link. I Googled for hours but didn't come up with
nything...
Thanks
DC
Darrel Ericson
"Detroit City" <nos...@nospam.xxx> wrote in message
news:Xns951F4A5...@216.196.97.135...
Detroit City
> Didn't Smokey Yunick come up with the rat roaster?
>
Don't know about Smokey, Darrel. I don't have all that much
recollection of him being a Mopar builder I could be having
one of my Senior Moments, but I remember him more for his
seminal Chevy work.
Anyway, if it was Ol' Smokey, I'd certainly add his name to
my pictures. But, I *still* need to know the year to
satisfy my curiousity and tendency to be anally retentive
about my car pictures.
Besides the stuff I put into my OP, I've got feelers out
all over Chrysler through my friends, and I've Googled
several times for hours. I can get just about all the info
I want about these famous engines, except the *Dang* first
model year!
I've got 'em all pegged as 1966 until I can get
confirmation that's right or the correct year.
Thanks for your comment.
DC
P.S. the origins of the "rat roaster" idea *may* have come
from the racing community, but I'm more ready to believe it
came out of the *very* large Hemi NASCAR and drag race
engineering and racer factory support people at Chrysler. I
can't prove it, but I think the "rat roaster" idea came
from the same bunch of guys who developed the new Short Ram
Dual-Holley set-up for the drag racers. I am sure, though,
that the NASCAR manifold is *not* a "ram induction" scheme.
--
Please read header info to ensure you are replying to the
right person! Thank you.
Bob Horton
I know many of the Chrysler engineers that were involved in the program
(those still around, of course). I forwarded your inquiry to one of them;
he's pretty well known -- I think most of the guys here would know him if I
posted his name. (no, not Hoover, but close). Anyway, if he gives me any
good data, I'll post it.
--
Bob Horton
"Detroit City" <nos...@nospam.xxx> wrote in message
news:Xns951F8F0...@216.196.97.135...
Detroit City
> Hello!
>
> I know many of the Chrysler engineers that were involved in
> the program (those still around, of course). I forwarded
> your inquiry to one of them; he's pretty well known -- I
> think most of the guys here would know him if I posted his
> name. (no, not Hoover, but close). Anyway, if he gives me
> any good data, I'll post it.
>
Thanks for forwarding my request, Bob.
Can you tell me who you sent it to? I've sent inquires to Bruce
Thomas, Tom Sturgeon, and John Wehrley, but haven't heard from
them...
-- Jerry Rivers
Chrysler Retiree
--
Please Read All Header information to ensure that you are
Steve
> This square manifold is thought by some to be a ram manifold,
> ala the Short Ram dual-Holley drag race engine, but that is
> incorrect. I've heard it called by several names, the most
> popular of which are "Tub manifold" and "rat roaster".
I've certainly never heard it called a "rat roaster." I've always
associated that term with manifolds with a big open plenum and (often)
an interchangeable gasketed top plate that allows installation of
different carb configurations (dual 4, single 4, and in later years
Dominator and spread-bore flange carbs).
> The Museum also houses a 1964 Plymouth Belvedere 2-door
> hardtop with the Richard Petty-style NASCAR Hemi in it, which
> has the runner manifold and cowl-air induction system.
I'm far from an expert, but did NASCAR rules of that day require the
engine production year to match the chassis production year? I know that
it was not uncommon for there to be several model years of Plymouth or
Dodge competing in any given race well up into the 70s, and I doubt that
there was much of a restriction on which engines had to go in which cars
until after the Wing cars were so dominant that they were forced to use
small-block power.
In one of my books in which a lot of the Chrysler engineers were
interviewed (Hoover, Weertman, etc.) about the mad rush to get the
"1964" Hemis ready in time for Daytona, I don't recall much if any
discussion about what chassis the engines were going into- just getting
engines put together was the main concern. IIRC (I'm away from home and
can't grab the book and check) there was even a big rush delivery of
engines after qualifying because quals were done on early blocks that
were prone to failure and a fix had been identified and implemented just
barely in time for the actual race.
John&Michelle
to the "Rat Roaster" IIRC - the big plenum volume is great for top end
power, but hurts throttle response for short track racing. I beleive that
the manifold in "Detroit's" question was used after NASCAR cut the Hemi back
to a single 4-bbl.
"Darrel Ericson" <ericsonad...@insightbb.com> wrote in message
news:82VGc.41336$Oq2.5354@attbi_s52...
robs440
bill france wised his ass up? i hear he cut the hemi back to about 403 "
max size.
"John&Michelle" <jcr...@metrocast.net> wrote in message
news:a-CdnaR1tpJ...@metrocast.net...
RedNeck TookOver Hell
>the manifold in "Detroit's" question was used after NASCAR cut the Hemi back
>to a single 4-bbl.
NASCAR never "cut" the hemi back to a single 4 barrel, ALL NASCAR hemi's were 1
four barrel carburetor
The 426 hemi was initially built for NASCAR, not NHRA dragracing
Politics, the gentle art of getting votes from the poor and campaign funds from
the rich.
RedNeck TookOver Hell
According to the Chrysler 426 hemi racing manual, dated Oct 1976, there were 3
"Rat Roaster" intake manifolds available from Edelbrock, the RR -1 which was
for usage with the dual AFB's of the street hemi, which came out in 1966, the
RR-3 was for NASCAR usage mounting a single 4500 Holley carburetor and there
was a crossram RR for use with the dual Holleys from the "race" hemi
The Rat Roasters all had Chrysler performance part numbers
Detroit City
I beleive that the
> manifold in "Detroit's" question was used after NASCAR cut
> the Hemi back to a single 4-bbl.
Weren't multiple carbs banned on *all* cars by NASCAR around the
1959 racing season? Certainly, there were no dual-quad anything in
1963, or early 1964. And, NASCAR banned the Hemi altogether for
most of the 1965 racing season - Chrysler sat out the rest of the
races in protest.
DC
Detroit City
>> Didn't Smokey Yunick come up with the rat roaster?
>
> According to the Chrysler 426 hemi racing manual, dated Oct
> 1976, there were 3 "Rat Roaster" intake manifolds available
> from Edelbrock, the RR -1 which was for usage with the dual
> AFB's of the street hemi, which came out in 1966, the RR-3
> was for NASCAR usage mounting a single 4500 Holley
> carburetor and there was a crossram RR for use with the
> dual Holleys from the "race" hemi The Rat Roasters all had
> Chrysler performance part numbers
So, then, am I correct that the *first* model year the rat
roaster single-Holley NASCAR manifold was used was 1964?
I don't have your Hemi book, maybe I should buy it. So, I
never knew that Edelbrook sold after-market Short Rams.
I do know positively that the 426 drag race engine was
introduced in the early spring of 1964, not long after Petty
et al returned from victory at Daytona.
I looked at quite a few of my 1964 426 Short Ram engine pics
and saw a couple of Carter AFBs, like on one very early
publicity picture that originated right from Chrysler. But,
the predominant carb was a Holley single-pumper.
DC
--
Please Read All Header information to ensure that you are
Detroit City
> NASCAR never "cut" the hemi back to a single 4 barrel,
ALL
> NASCAR hemi's were 1 four barrel carburetor
> The 426 hemi was initially built for NASCAR, not NHRA
> dragracing
>
RedNeck, sorry to disappoint you, but although getting a
Hemi at Daytona was a *much* higher priority than drag
racing for the Chrysler Engineering Hemi Racing Team (they
were desperate to beat Ford and had done miserably with the
426 wedge in 1963), both the single Holley dual-plane
intake manifold NASCAR Hemi, and the Short Ram twin-Holley
drag race engine, was developed essentially simultaneously.
The drag race "elephant motor" was actually ready in
February for a simultaneous launch with the Daytona 500
full-court press, but Chrysler decided to delay the drag
race engine so the Hemi team could concentrate 100% on
working out the bottom end catastrophic failure problem
they were having with long-race NASCAR engines.
So, the Short Ram engine was announced and began production
a month or so after Daytona, which is in February, IIRC.
Please take it from me, I knew these Hemi guys first-hand.
Incidently, none of the 1964-era trivia is under question,
the question was, and is, what's the right year for the
*first* rat roaster, whether it was a Chrysler-produced
casting (which I believe it was) or an Edelbrock.
The discussion in this thread is great! And, it more and
more confirms my belief that the rat roaster is a 1966
model year but probably was first delivered to racing teams
in late 1965.
Steve
>>I beleive that
>>the manifold in "Detroit's" question was used after NASCAR cut the Hemi back
>>to a single 4-bbl.
>
>
> NASCAR never "cut" the hemi back to a single 4 barrel, ALL NASCAR hemi's were 1
> four barrel carburetor
> The 426 hemi was initially built for NASCAR, not NHRA dragracing
>
>
EXACTLY. The Max Wedge was plenty formidable on the dragstrip, but ran
out of breath at sustained high-RPM on the NASCAR ovals. The drag Hemi
came later.
Bob Horton
None of those guys. I'm a bit hesitant to post his name, as he's still
doing some fairly high profile stuff for Mopar and I think he might prefer
that I not attribute info directly to him. Or he might not care at all; I
just don't know! Haven't heard back yet.
--
Bob Horton
"Detroit City" <nos...@nospam.xxx> wrote in message
news:Xns951FB68...@216.196.97.135...
RedNeck TookOver Hell
>RedNeck, sorry to disappoint you, but although getting a
>Hemi at Daytona was a *much* higher priority than drag
>racing for the Chrysler Engineering Hemi Racing Team
Actually, I'm much more disappointed that you seem to be good at name dropping
but I guess none of those engineers bother to return your phone calls?????
Anyway, in Mopar Action's "Mopar Tech Special volume 5 number 2 1997 on page 55
is a story called "deep breathing exercise" written by Georg Longacre
It'a a story about rare race manifolds for Max Wedges and the race hemi.
He states the earliest race hemi's had dual Carter AFB 3861S's During the '64
model years Chrysler switched to the Holley 3116's
He goes on to state for the 1966 NASCAR season Chrysler developed a 2 peice
intake for a single 4 barrel
The development consisted of cutting off the top of a dual 4 barrel dragrace
manifold
A plate was adapted that mounted a single 4 barrel. He states this intake
provided stable operation between 3200 to 7200 rpm
Volumetirc efficiency was 102% at 5600 rpm. The runners had a branch length of
14.38 inches
He states Chrysler released 3 well known tops for the "bathtub" intake, one for
a 4150 Holley, one for a 4500 Holley and one with a thicker, higher top called
the "raised cover" which was made by Petty Enterprises. There was also a 4th
rare cover made for USAC racing which mounted two Holleys offset like the
crossrams
Anyway, 1966 was the year the "bathtub" intake was first used
Bob Horton
Well, I did get response on your question. As I had suspected, my contact
prefers to remain anonymous. He's a pretty private guy, and as he's mostly
retired he prefers to stay that way. Anyway, in his opening to his email he
basically said that he's responding from memory from 40 years ago and
doesn't want his quote attributed directly to him, as these things always
wind up in a big debate and he really doesn't want to get into one! So I
guess you can choose to attribute as much or as little value to his comments
as you wish, but I can tell you that IMO he is an excellent source, and he
was there. I think his basic answer is that, when in came to engines, back
then matching model years to race years wasn't something that anyone really
thought about, and there may not be a real answer to your question. You
could (and did) have parts on engines running in 1969 bodies when those
parts originally came out in 1964. The following is his response unedited
(other than the personal stuff I alluded to up front and have snipped).
Please note that there is no warranty of accuracy, and that these comments
are not an official response from DaimlerChrysler. Having said all that,
there was some stuff in there that I hadn't heard before, and I found it a
fun read. Here goes:
" Model year - calendar year - first raced - As you know, the 426 Hemi was
introduced in 1964, as a 1964 model. It was first raced in Feb. 1964 @ the
Daytona 500. Didn't make the '64 NHRA Winternationals. Yes - many of these
original '64 Hemis were shipped with an aluminum dual-plane, single 4bbl
intake manifold. However, the majority (ones not shipped/purchased to circle
track racers/dealers) used a dual 4bbl, cross-ram system. Drag racers wanted
the two-4, cross-ram system.
In 40 years, people are forgetting the buzz words and apparently bunching
them together. So, let's define a few terms - the Rat Roaster - there were
actually 3 versions, designed and developed by the Chrysler Race group and
cast and machined by Edelbrock - also sold by Edelbrock for years. The
original was called the "RR1" (I think but could be wrong) and the drag
racers coined the nickname Rat Roaster. It was designed for the Street Hemi
engine - about 1966/7, so it had two-4bbls - in-line! It was generally 1"
taller than the stock/production intake - NHRA rules for Super Stock! Then
they (Edelbrock) made the RR2 - cross-ram version. Not very successful at
the race track, so not easy to find. The third version was the RR3 - the
single 4bbl version! Not really used in circle track racing, but quite
popular in the old AHRA (and then IHRA) single 4bbl Formula classes (didn't
have to be production-based).
The tub manifold is better called a bath-tub because that was somewhat what
they looked like. The single 4bbl carb sat down below the top of the
manifold. They were several different castings, but they looked similar.
They were tried a couple times in drag racing but not very successful. Only
raced and only in circle track. In later years, drag racers in IHRA Formula
classes (single 4bbl) began using the bottoms to these manifolds with RR3
tops or billet/fabricated tops.
Racing in '64 & '65 - Chrysler didn't do much with NASCAR in '65 but they
were still heavily involved in oval track racing in USAC, ARCA and several
other sanctioning groups. Plus the engineering development didn't stop. They
were trying to find more power from the day it was introduced - for racing.
And the rules (especially in NASCAR) were constantly changing. Lots of
exceptions and one-race changes during this time, and all the way up thru
1971.
Manifolds - two-piece, bolt together intakes - in this era, they could be
Edelbrock RR1/2/3 based (the most common by far) or one of the Oval Track
bath-tub intakes. None of these were used on the production cars. They were
only used in racing. They were easily swapped with production intakes.
By the time the 1969 Daytonas were built, the rules allowed them all to be
built as in-line 8bbl's and then swapped to a single 4bbl for racing in all
of the various sanctioning bodies.
It's somewhat easy to figure out how the cars were built but it is almost
impossible to try to define intake manifolds on race cars because even teams
with the same engine/car didn't always use the same manifold package, unless
it was dictated by the sanctioning body. The sanctioning bodies tended to be
more interested in the carb then the intake itself.
Not sure if I covered everything but it should get him closer to what he's
looking for."
End of quote.
--
Bob Horton
"Bob Horton" <no_re_hort...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:gb2dnUlagM2...@comcast.com...
Detroit City
> Hi Jerry!
>
> Well, I did get response on your question. As I had
> suspected, my contact prefers to remain anonymous.
Fine by me that your friend keeps his privacy.
I think I understand most/all of what you said.
Through my own contacts at Chrysler, lots of Googling, and
lots of other "stuff", I think I'm gonna stay with my
original notion on the "bath tub" version of the NASCAR
Hemi and call it a 1966.
There's enough evidence to show (not necessarily "prove")
that the 1964 model year and racing year, as exemplified by
Petty et al, used the plain-jane dual-plane runner
manifold.
I'm just gonna assume not much happened in 1965, and I *do*
have documentation for my engine connundrum that "shows" it
to be a 1966 model year. Easily could've race in C/Y 1965
in a 1966 model year car.
Thanks a bunch for passing on this very useful info to me
and anyone else who might be interested.
DC
robs440
"Bob Horton" <no_re_hort...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:45bJc.1832$Cx4...@newssvr15.news.prodigy.com...
Detroit City
dual-quad Short Ram manifold being cut in half but it sure
does explain the bolts in the "rat roaster" manifold. And,
you've confirmed my belief as to which model year this
engine should be.
As to your dissapointment over my name dropping, which it
isn't, damn few people return phone calls or E-mails today.
I think I know why, but there's no place for that
discussion here.
Whether you want to believe that I did/do/did not/do not -
know these engineers/supervisors/managers/chief engineers,
well...
DC
RAMRACING1
Hemi and has put up an exclusive website devoted to it for all to read.......It
is at www.HEMI.com for those interested.........
Mark
