Japanese - not "Jap"
Note
While I know people mean no harm by abbreviating Japanese to Jap...Please
realize that the word "Jap" is a derogatory term - no different than the
recent filth flooding this newsgroup.
BTW: Please stop responding to flame bait - it just serves to repeat the
offending posters message over and over.
Hector
Note:
Offended on behalf of a guitar: how sensitive and liberal, how very
current...
Please realize that perception of a term as derogatory is an action
performed by the reader, not the writer. Please accept yourself for
whatever you are, and then maybe you won't have to follow the current
liberal trend of taking away everyone else's freedoms so that your
oh-so-delicate feelings won't be hurt.
Hector
(a dago, for whomever it may matter to...my apologies to the
non-racists, who realize on their own that it makes no difference.)
Daddy-O
What utter right-wing hogwash: bemoaning the fact that people won't put
up with racial and ethnic slurs any more. Oh, you have a precious
"right" to use "Jap" and "dago" if you want to, and no one has taken
that "right" from you. But calling a Japanese-made guitar a "Jap" guitar
is no different from calling a Mexican-made guitar a "spic" guitar or a
Korean-made guitar a "gook" guitar, which Note was POLITELY pointing
out. No, no one is taking away your right to be an asshole. Please
realize that your perception of the word "asshole" has nothing to do
with my intent. I merely wrote it; I bear no responsibility for its
connotations.
Daddy-O
Nick Fynn
In article <326787...@tempestsoft.com> Hector <cha...@tempestsoft.com>
writes:
>Please realize that perception of a term as derogatory is an action
>performed by the reader, not the writer. Please accept yourself for
>whatever you are, and then maybe you won't have to follow the current
>liberal trend of taking away everyone else's freedoms so that your
>oh-so-delicate feelings won't be hurt.
>
>Hector
Please realize that's the kind of argument by which people justify
calling gays "fags" and when you ask them about it they say "Oh, a
fag is just a bundle of wood". Nobody is taking your freedom away
when they point out some language can be harmful. If you feel as
if they do perhaps it is your own internal monitor which knows
language is a grey zone and making an effort not to use words which
have been used to harm before is not some PC conspiracy - it's
about being a decent human being to your fellow humans.
Anonymous X. Incognito
Bravo, Hector.
Frank
simply an abreviation of Japanese. If you were to refer to someone as a slant
eyed rice slinging zipper head, that might be construed as derogatory. So go
climb back into you boyfriends asshole, fag.
Oh, buy the way, I'm no longer white. I'm a Nordic American.
Hector
Daddy-O wrote:
>
> Hector wrote:
> >
> > Note wrote:
> > >
> > > While I know people mean no harm by abbreviating Japanese to Jap...Please
> > > realize that the word "Jap" is a derogatory term - no different than the
> > > recent filth flooding this newsgroup.
> > >
> > > BTW: Please stop responding to flame bait - it just serves to repeat the
> > > offending posters message over and over.
> >
> > Note:
> >
> > Offended on behalf of a guitar: how sensitive and liberal, how very
> > current...
> >
> > performed by the reader, not the writer. Please accept yourself for
> > whatever you are, and then maybe you won't have to follow the current
> > liberal trend of taking away everyone else's freedoms so that your
> > oh-so-delicate feelings won't be hurt.
> >
> > Hector
> > non-racists, who realize on their own that it makes no difference.)
>
> What utter right-wing hogwash: bemoaning the fact that people won't put
> up with racial and ethnic slurs any more. Oh, you have a precious
> "right" to use "Jap" and "dago" if you want to, and no one has taken
> that "right" from you. But calling a Japanese-made guitar a "Jap" guitar
> is no different from calling a Mexican-made guitar a "spic" guitar or a
> Korean-made guitar a "gook" guitar, which Note was POLITELY pointing
> out. No, no one is taking away your right to be an asshole. Please
> realize that your perception of the word "asshole" has nothing to do
> with my intent. I merely wrote it; I bear no responsibility for its
> connotations.
>
> Daddy-O
People "won't put up with" racial slurs anymore??? I got a news flash
for you, hoss: In a free society, you must put up with anything anyone
might say.(Actions are another matter...) You don't have to agree, or
even like it, but the fascists haven't won yet (not that President and
Mr. Clinton aren't trying).
You can vote for whoever the F*** you want. I just resent being told
what words I can use. Personally, I don't use a lot of slurs (like the
stuff you've posted over the last several weeks that landed you in my
killfile) in my daily speech and writing. I just think that if someone
is an asshole, it's his weakness, and he has to live with its
consequences (being shunned by reasonable people); I just don't think
there should be laws against it, as Bill Clinton does. A person who says
N**g*r is an asshole, but at the end of the day, if he hasn't harmed
anyone, he's just an asshole. So leave him alone. Don't waste your time
on him. Find other friends. But don't pass another bulls*** law. There's
too many of them now.
Incidentally, Jap (the "slur" that all this crap was over in the 1st
place) is a lot quicker to type as a descriptor of a guitar than
"Japanese", and I've never seen a guitar take offense at it. Too bad so
many of you are so quick to decide you're offended. In better times,
simple maturity solved the problem. When some idiot called you a name,
you considered the source, and walked on. Seems we've been losing it as
a society since the 40s or so, which I'd go back to in a second. The
worst thing that could happen to you in a bar was a fistfight. Well, at
least I can remember those days...
Hector
PS: I gather from your bogus return path, that you've found that there
are some who would apply a certain a-word to you as well. Maybe you
should write your Congress-fascist and have a law passed. Or you could
grow up.
R. McPherson
On Sat, 19 Oct 1996, Frank wrote:
: What's any of this got to do with guitars? As I understand it, Jap is
:simply an abreviation of Japanese.
I've used the word Japanese to describe foreign made Fenders and
then used the abbreviation Jap in the same post here on this
newsgroup with no intent to degrade any culture or race (and to
support by impression that basswood guitars are a good choice).
So I agree that the use on this newsgroup is as an abbreviation.
I also agree with an earlier poster that sensitive readers can
read into posts and generate derision where none was intended.
What do people think about the Tex-Mex pickups being advertised
by Fender right now? Is this insulting to Texans? Is this an
insult to Mexicans? Doesn't this simply convey information about
the origin of a musical sound quality in a concise manner?
I think it is true that during World War II the abreviation Jap
was used to refer to the enemy and that being the enemy conveyed
a bad conotation in that context. Similarly, being called a
Yankee or Yank might be perceived multiple ways regardless of the
intent. Nevertheless, people are entitled to their opinions, and
this is more true on the internet than in any other single forum.
rjmc...@uci.edu R. McPherson, Psychobiology Dept, UC Irvine
Anonymous X. Incognito
That does it!!!
I don't want to hear anyone ever calling it a "Mexi-Strat" ever again.
Haywood Yu
>
>> > While I know people mean no harm by abbreviating Japanese to
Jap...Please
>> > realize that the word "Jap" is a derogatory term -
Just for info, in England, all the British guitar magazines carry ads
of music stores and it always prints 'JAP Fender' guitars when they
advertise Fenders made in Japan. It seems the Brits don't havethis
hangup over political correctness like the Yanks are.
Hector
Nick Fynn wrote:
>
> Please realize that's the kind of argument by which people justify
> calling gays "fags" and when you ask them about it they say "Oh, a
> fag is just a bundle of wood". Nobody is taking your freedom away
> when they point out some language can be harmful. If you feel as
> if they do perhaps it is your own internal monitor which knows
> language is a grey zone and making an effort not to use words which
> have been used to harm before is not some PC conspiracy - it's
> about being a decent human being to your fellow humans.
Nick: (apologies to all others, he left no e-mail address for private
rebuttal...)
Civilized behaviour, like charity, is everyone's business and personal
responsibility. BUT, and it's the crucial 'but', *it's not the
government's or the law's business.* Civilization cannot be legislated,
it must reside in the individual. The net result of the liberal attempt
to codify these two things, is that people bought the lie that it is
properly a matter of law, and so they no longer feel responsible for it
themselves. Consider the effect: are there less poor, and less hate
crimes? I see more of both than I saw in the 50s, when 1) freedom of
expression was a right, and using it wisely was a matter a personal
responsibility, not of law, and 2) Churches took care of the poor, and
people who worked had money to give to this mission since they didn't
pay half of what they made to an all-powerful government. As an added
bonus from Washington, everyone is all hostile because people get that
way when their human freedoms are usurped. Good, no?
As Christ said, 'the poor will always be with you'. Giving to them will
always be a moral imperative, and a generally good thing to do. It is
not the job of a too-powerful government to collect all the hard-earned
money up and give it out as it sees fit, though. That is the textbook
definition of Communism. Remember that? We, and I, fought wars against
it.
I don't subscribe to the use of doublespeak, as you described, changing
one's story as to what you meant by a word after the fact. Personally,
though, for all the names I have been called over my (too many) years, I
have never been "harmed" by words. Again: Maturity, remember? If someone
calls a homosexual the word YOU used, he's showing his pinheadedness.
Feel sorry for him. Leave him alone. Mush on. Don't make it a question
of law. Nobody matures and grows when they're taken care of. They
remain whining, sniveling children. With freedom and responsibility, if
the government would only stop preventing them, we could mature as a
civilization. The ultimate insult is that they get votes for this crap
by fooling people who should know better into thinking its for our own
good. It isn't. Our good belongs in our hands.
Let's get back to being grown-ups. I see so few of them, anymore...
Hector
Ross M Stites
miss...@ix.netcom.com(Haywood Yu) writes:
The political correctness thing is limited to a very vocal, realitively
small minority in the US. I think that they balance out our very
vocal, small minority of rightwing bigots:) Too bad we can't get
rid of both...
Ross
Slip Mahoney
It isn't "political correctness" to refrain from using racial epithets,
it's common human decency. If you're too goddamned feeble to write
"Japanese" instead of "Jap," hang it up and check yourself into the
vegetable farm.
Rick Meadows
Anonymous X. Incognito wrote:
>
> That does it!!!
>
> I don't want to hear anyone ever calling it a "Mexi-Strat" ever again.
It's only derog in your own mind, lighten up, go hook up with King and
tell me whats derog...
Thanks
Rick
Slip Mahoney
Frank wrote:
>
> In article <10-18-1996.1394@printers>, printers!nick (Nick Fynn) wrote:
> >In article <326787...@tempestsoft.com> Hector <cha...@tempestsoft.com>
> >writes:
> >
> >>performed by the reader, not the writer. Please accept yourself for
> >>whatever you are, and then maybe you won't have to follow the current
> >>liberal trend of taking away everyone else's freedoms so that your
> >>oh-so-delicate feelings won't be hurt.
> >>
> >>Hector
> >
> >
> > calling gays "fags" and when you ask them about it they say "Oh, a
> > fag is just a bundle of wood". Nobody is taking your freedom away
> > when they point out some language can be harmful. If you feel as
> > if they do perhaps it is your own internal monitor which knows
> > language is a grey zone and making an effort not to use words which
> > have been used to harm before is not some PC conspiracy - it's
> > about being a decent human being to your fellow humans.
> >
> >
> eyed rice slinging zipper head, that might be construed as derogatory. So go
> climb back into you boyfriends asshole, fag.
>
> Oh, buy the way, I'm no longer white. I'm a Nordic American.
Oh, by the way, you're no longer a "Nordic American," you're a waste of
protoplasm. Think how many perfectly good garden slugs could have been
made from the likes of you. What a pity.
Ross M Stites
Slip Mahoney <mah...@bowery.com> writes:
The only problem with your argument is that Jap isn't racial,
it's nationalistic. Big difference. It's no different than
calling someone a Brit (or Limey :), a Yank, etc. I really am amazed
by people who go out of their way to be offended by these things. There
are so many real problems in the world. Go find one of those and
champion it if you've got so much excess energy.
Ross
Slip Mahoney
Ross M Stites wrote:
> >It isn't "political correctness" to refrain from using racial epithets,
> >it's common human decency. If you're too goddamned feeble to write
> >"Japanese" instead of "Jap," hang it up and check yourself into the
> >vegetable farm.
>
> The only problem with your argument is that Jap isn't racial,
> it's nationalistic. Big difference. It's no different than
> calling someone a Brit (or Limey :), a Yank, etc. I really am amazed
> by people who go out of their way to be offended by these things. There
> are so many real problems in the world. Go find one of those and
> champion it if you've got so much excess energy.
>
> Ross
WHAT?! Were you born yesterday? "Jap" most certainly IS a racial slur;
if you doubt it, go up to an American of Japanese descent and call him a
"Jap." Then pick your teeth up off of the floor. FYI, racism IS one of
the real problems in the world, and it exists as much in ignorance as in
malice, as is evidenced by your post.
James P. H. Fuller
> What utter right-wing hogwash: bemoaning the fact that people won't put
> up with racial and ethnic slurs any more. Oh, you have a precious
> "right" to use "Jap" and "dago" if you want to, and no one has taken
> that "right" from you. But calling a Japanese-made guitar a "Jap" guitar
> is no different from calling a Mexican-made guitar a "spic" guitar or a
> Korean-made guitar a "gook" guitar
Connoisseurs of political correctitude will enjoy parsing "Jap." It's a
slur, we're told. Then why capitalize it? Why, to show respect!
We bought three hours on a Cray to compute the answer to the puzzling
question why "Jap" and "Mex" are considered slurs while "Tex," "Brit," and
"Yank" are not. The answer is that the dividing line is *four* or more
deleted letters. Shorten a national designation by three characters or
fewer, everything's cool. Truncate by four characters or five or six? Wash
his mouth out with soap. As a sidelight to this research, we answered with
some finality the question whether calling a given food item "Tex-Mex"
insults anyone. The answer is yes and no. We can also reveal that calling
someone a Lapp rather than a Lapplander is a blood insult that NO ONE EVER
NOTICED BEFORE!
Oh, the silly season is no longer seasonal, is it?
- JF
Richard Lindsey
Slip Mahoney <mah...@bowery.com> wrote:
>Ross M Stites wrote:
>>
>> miss...@ix.netcom.com(Haywood Yu) writes:
>>
>> > >
>> >>> > While I know people mean no harm by abbreviating Japanese to
>> >Jap...Please
>> >>> > realize that the word "Jap" is a derogatory term -
>>
>> >Just for info, in England, all the British guitar magazines carry ads
>> >of music stores and it always prints 'JAP Fender' guitars when they
>> >advertise Fenders made in Japan. It seems the Brits don't havethis
>> >hangup over political correctness like the Yanks are.
>>
>> The political correctness thing is limited to a very vocal, realitively
>> small minority in the US. I think that they balance out our very
>> vocal, small minority of rightwing bigots:) Too bad we can't get
>> rid of both...
>>
>> Ross
>It isn't "political correctness" to refrain from using racial epithets,
>it's common human decency. If you're too goddamned feeble to write
>"Japanese" instead of "Jap," hang it up and check yourself into the
>vegetable farm.
Second that. Is it really that much extra effort to type 5 more
letters to avoid possibly offending someone to no purpose?
Noone's going to throw anybody off the net for using terms like this,
but they may well stop listening. It's not censorship to say only a
jerk would KNOWINGLY use offensive terms in (presumably) polite
company.
Richard Lindsey
R. McPherson
On 21 Oct 1996, KenO3 wrote:
:Folks,
:Get with it and don't stray off into space.
Condescending remark don't you think?
: If "Jap" is offensive to
: people (and I assure you, it can be) why not stop using it?
The answer is that the basis for the offense taken by the reader
may not be valid in the context in which the term is being used.
:Just because you see
:questionable terms in the press and in ads doesn't make them OK elsewhere
:in the world.
On the other hand:
Just because someone else considers your term
questionable does not mean they are correct and have the
authority or license to censor your speech.
: If you really want to communicate with someone (sell one
:something or whatever), why chose terms that might offend them.
On the other hand:
If you really want to understand someone's communication, why not
read it with the simplest and most generous interpretation
instead of reading inlammatory derision into it and then
challenging the language chosen in order to implicate underlying
attitudes and incite argument without real foundation?
Put simply:
Abbreviations simplify communication. Abbreviations which are
quickly recognized are more useful than obscure ones. Language
should be interpretted in context. In the context of a GUITAR
newsgroup where the country of manufacture for guitars is
commonly discussed, it is a reasonable interpretation that US
refers to United States of America, and Mex refers to Mexico and
Jap refers to Japan with no intent to comment on the character of
race or creed. Simply to abbreviate the geographical location.
Perhaps you should be petitioning to install a new accepted
abbreviation to be used on guitar newsgroups such as JPN for
Japan, or MXO for Mexico, and AMA for America? This would
satisfy all the purposes in that it would be a useful
abbreviation that did not have any historic conotation.
Historically, World War II was fought and during that war
anti-Japan propaganda was spread in America and anti-American
propaganda was spread in Japan. It is unreasonable to expect
that the bigotry cultivated by the propaganda of that war is
thriving on guitar newsgroups. Most of us are just discussing
guitar makers.
Nevertheless, it is worthy for those who choose to do so to be
vigilant against the blatant bigotry which is deliberately spread
across the internet by some. It is incumbent upon those who
choose to oppose bigotry to make sure that they are attacking
bigots and not attacking non-bigots. It is your responsibility
to correctly pursue bigots and not to generalize your definition
of bigotry to be all-inclusive and thus simplify your task by
simply attacking everyone. At that point, you become the moral
bigot in that you would impose your moral imperatives and thus
encroach upon the freedoms of everyone.
I don't think the Fender company is being prejudiced when they
market a new line of Tex-Mex pickups. I don't think I was being
prejudiced when I described how US-made strats have alder bodies
and Jap-made strats have basswood bodies and Mex-strats have
poplar bodies. I was just abbreviating.
Steve
>Oh, by the way, you're no longer a "Nordic American," you're a waste of
>protoplasm. Think how many perfectly good garden slugs could have been
>made from the likes of you. What a pity.
If I were an oriental and considered the wide array of derogatory terms for
asians, none of which I'll have the courtesy to mention here, I'd be satisfied
with being called a Jap.
How many people would think twice about referring to a Swedish person as a
Swede? How is that any less derogatory than Jap. Or a Gerry, Yank, or Brit? I
suppose maybe we're just a little more secure and don't have to dream up
problems about how our poor little group is being persecuted. Take some
earlier advise and put your energy into something useful.
James P. H. Fuller
> What utter right-wing hogwash: bemoaning the fact that people won't put
> up with racial and ethnic slurs any more. Oh, you have a precious
> "right" to use "Jap" and "dago" if you want to, and no one has taken
> that "right" from you. But calling a Japanese-made guitar a "Jap" guitar
> is no different from calling a Mexican-made guitar a "spic" guitar or a
> Korean-made guitar a "gook" guitar
Fans of political correctitude will enjoy parsing "Jap." It's a slur,
Ross M Stites
Slip Mahoney <mah...@bowery.com> writes:
>WHAT?! Were you born yesterday? "Jap" most certainly IS a racial slur;
>if you doubt it, go up to an American of Japanese descent and call him a
>"Jap." Then pick your teeth up off of the floor. FYI, racism IS one of
>the real problems in the world, and it exists as much in ignorance as in
>malice, as is evidenced by your post.
If you really don't understand the issue involved, you shouldn't enter
the discussion. Nice straw man. Obviously, I wouldn't refer to
an American of Japanese descent as Japanese. They are simply an
American to me.
Your problem seems to be that you think that Japanese is a race. It's
not, it's a nationality. Calling someone Japanese is the same thing
as calling someone an American. It gives no racial information. The
only reason it does to most people is because Japan has a more
homogeneous population than the US.
Btw, I have several good friends that are of Japanese descent. I
don't have ignorance to racial problems in the world. In fact I
understand them pretty well being of minority descent myself...
I won't be responding further to this thread since I come here to
discuss guitars, not to correct peoples misinformation.
Ross
Slip Mahoney
What an incredible dumbfuck! You take the cake. "JAP" IS NOT THE SAME AS
"JAPANESE," you benighted shit-for-brains! For the last time, and I
don't know why I'm bothering to try to educate the uneducable,
"Japanese" denotes nationality; "Jap" is a SLUR, like "chink" or
"nigger" or "Hebe" or "spic." Where the fuck are you from, Mars? Go
ahead, Einstein: ask your "good friends" if "Jap" is okay; ask'em if
they like it. And that's "JAP," you weasely little protozoan, NOT
"Japanese." Got it? GOT IT? Nah, I didn't think so.
pkh...@erols.com
I have heard the word "Jap" in a racial context, and I'm sure there are
those who hear "Jap Strat" and are offended. Most of the post I've read,
however, don't appear to be calling it that to attack the workers who
contructed the guitar. Most comments are from those who highly regard the
quality of these guitars. The same goes for the Mexi-Strats (although
I've never heard anyone call a person a "Mexi").
But if calling them "Japanese" Strats will keep from offending a few
Japanese people, it isn't that painful to spell it out. I will keep using
"Strat" instead of "Stratocaster" though. They don't seem to mind.
PKH
KenO3
Folks,
Get with it and don't stray off into space. If "Jap" is offensive to
people (and I assure you, it can be) why not stop using it? All cultures
have their own hot-buttons/derogatory remarks. Just because you see
questionable terms in the press and in ads doesn't make them OK elsewhere
something or whatever), why chose terms that might offend them.
Ken
Haywood Yu
I
>I have heard the word "Jap" in a racial context, and I'm sure there
are
>those who hear "Jap Strat" and are offended. Most of the post I've
read,
>however, don't appear to be calling it that to attack the workers who
>contructed the guitar. Most comments are from those who highly regard
the
>quality of these guitars. The same goes for the Mexi-Strats (although
>I've never heard anyone call a person a "Mexi").
>
I am Asian and yes it does bug me when a racial slur is used, but I
will yell until I'm hoarse that in a free society, I don't want anyone
telling anyone else what words they can or can't use. Haywood
Slip Mahoney
pkh...@erols.com wrote:
>
> I have heard the word "Jap" in a racial context, and I'm sure there are
> those who hear "Jap Strat" and are offended. Most of the post I've read,
> however, don't appear to be calling it that to attack the workers who
> contructed the guitar. Most comments are from those who highly regard the
> quality of these guitars. The same goes for the Mexi-Strats (although
> I've never heard anyone call a person a "Mexi").
>
> Japanese people, it isn't that painful to spell it out. I will keep using
> "Strat" instead of "Stratocaster" though. They don't seem to mind.
>
> PKH
Regardless of intention, "Jap" is a slur. All but the truly benighted
have long since stopped calling Brazil nuts "niggertoes." You merit
appreciation for your decision to treat your fellow human beings with
some respect and dignity. For the life of me, I can't understand what's
so difficult about that.
William Robert Wilson
Well, for the sake of kicking a dead horse (as I'm adding to an already
to long thread) I would like to add that certain terms in certian
context can be offensive and it probably would have been a good idea
if the abbreviation wasn't used in the first place... but i would
have to point out that some people took this completely the wrong way,
I doubt if the poster had any intention of degrading Japanese people,
by using the abbreviation Jap. I, myself, don't read in any negative
meaning in seeing any of these subjects... I know that the internet is
often littered with abbreviations and acronyms to speed up the transmition
of information, the case here I believe was nothing different. I think
that foul calling should be done only after careful consideration of
the post and there was indeed an intentional racial degredation.
No clubbing or flaming should be intiated for a moments
indescretion and coincidence with a racial slur.
And for the poster above, I am Japanese, And I HATE it when some
fool says to me ... "so your one of those japs... eh? "
but this is completely different than what we see on this group..
Maybe if the addition of a period would be helpful in the future
jap.
Woefully annoyed by PCism
Billy Niiyama
Al Heigl
I don't know about this whole topic, but I like the distinction made
in saying that if you mean it as an abbreviation, then it's capital "J",
lower-case "ap", and a period. If you mean it as slang, then it's
either capitals or not, with no punctuation. Doesn't solve the under-
lying problem (as some see it), but is a thoughtful response from the
angle of usage.
Al
Al Heigl
Slip Mahoney wrote:
>
> Regardless of intention, "Jap" is a slur. All but the truly benighted
> have long since stopped calling Brazil nuts "niggertoes." You merit
> appreciation for your decision to treat your fellow human beings with
> some respect and dignity. For the life of me, I can't understand what's
> so difficult about that.
Again with the "benighted" -- anybody ever just pick up a dictionary
and read a few pages, just for enjoyment and perhaps to learn a new
and interesting/useful word to add to the vocabulary?
Also this particular post of Slip's -- devoid of insulting verbiage --
is most classy, reasonable, and readable. Much more of a pleasure to
read, and definitely beats anyone trying to get some point across by
calling some else a "dumfuck eave-trough-sucking hamster-raping
kerosene-flaming double-asswipe bad-person." I mean, calling me "bad-
person" is ASKING for trouble -- I hate it when that happens.
Al
Al Heigl
Enjoyable post. Doubt the Cray-time purchase part of it, but the
theory about 4 or more dropped letters is actually quite interesting.
Seriously -- can anyone come up with any more examples that would give
more proof to this theory. Or, can anyone give any examples that would
disprove it?
Wow -- after all the hooey I've read about this topic, it's like I just
accidentally stumbled into a Mensa newsgroup, with some real high-level
thinking going on.
Al
Slip Mahoney
> James P. H. Fuller wrote:
> >
> > Fans of political correctitude will enjoy parsing "Jap." It's a slur,
> > we're told.
You can't tell me you didn't know that "Jap" is a slur. Nobody's THAT
stupid.
Steve
Go ahead and consider Jap a derogatory term if you wish. Nobody else is really
going to care. Any negative connotations to the term go back to WWII, so I'd
say it's the Japanese who could have avoided this, had they not murdered so
many American servicemen.
James P. H. Fuller
Slip Mahoney (mah...@bowery.com) wrote:
> > Fans of political correctitude will enjoy parsing "Jap." It's a slur,
> > we're told. Then why capitalize it? Why, to show respect!
>
> You can't tell me you didn't know that "Jap" is a slur. Nobody's THAT
> stupid.
Why belabor the obvious, then, if it's so obvious? Enjoy hearing
yourself talk, do you?
ObGuitar: TWANG!
ricm
In article <54ik04$3...@herald.concentric.net>, we...@concentric.net (Steve)
wrote:
And all the white folk in this country should continue to bear the
responsibility of
the evils of slavery 200 years ago? I sure hope not!
It's this mindless blabber that perpetuates the
racial bigotry and violence in this country. I am Japanese American, I didn't
murder American servicemen. As a matter of fact several of my relatives served
in WWII as my own family were left to rot in internment camps for three years
after losing everything they had - all in the name of blind US patriotic
correctness!
I applaud those in this thread that have spoken out against ignorance and
bigotry!
James P. H. Fuller
Slip Mahoney (mah...@bowery.com) wrote:
: What an incredible dumbfuck! You take the cake. "JAP" IS NOT THE SAME AS
: "JAPANESE," you benighted shit-for-brains! For the last time, and I
: don't know why I'm bothering to try to educate the uneducable,
: "Japanese" denotes nationality; "Jap" is a SLUR, like "chink" or
: "nigger" or "Hebe" or "spic." Where the fuck are you from, Mars? Go
: ahead, Einstein: ask your "good friends" if "Jap" is okay; ask'em if
: they like it. And that's "JAP," you weasely little protozoan, NOT
: "Japanese." Got it? GOT IT? Nah, I didn't think so.
Here speaketh the one who was lecturing us on "common human decency."
Since I'm in favor of tribal warfare I'd like to welcome the example
you're setting, Slop. Every little bit helps.
- JF
Dave Shapiro
Steve (we...@concentric.net) wrote:
[snip]
: Any negative connotations to the term go back to WWII, so I'd say it's the
: Japanese who could have avoided this, had they not murdered so many American
: servicemen.
Oh, my word. Please say you're trolling. Please. Please.
I'd hate to think computers have gotten so easy to use that someone with your
(apparent) maturity level could operate one.
Dave
dsh...@argo.ecte.uswc.uswest.com
Hector
Slip Mahoney wrote:
>
> Ross M Stites wrote:
> >
> > miss...@ix.netcom.com(Haywood Yu) writes:
> >
> > > >
> > >>> > While I know people mean no harm by abbreviating Japanese to
> > >Jap...Please
> > >>> > realize that the word "Jap" is a derogatory term -
> >
> > >Just for info, in England, all the British guitar magazines carry ads
> > >of music stores and it always prints 'JAP Fender' guitars when they
> > >advertise Fenders made in Japan. It seems the Brits don't havethis
> > >hangup over political correctness like the Yanks are.
> >
> > The political correctness thing is limited to a very vocal, realitively
> > small minority in the US. I think that they balance out our very
> > vocal, small minority of rightwing bigots:) Too bad we can't get
> > rid of both...
> >
> > Ross
>
> It isn't "political correctness" to refrain from using racial epithets,
> it's common human decency. If you're too goddamned feeble to write
> "Japanese" instead of "Jap," hang it up and check yourself into the
> vegetable farm.
Unfortunately, it does seem to be Politically Correct to jack your
epithet detector into overdrive, and see everything as an insult, so you
can have an apparent reason for the bile you go about pouring all over
everyone. For someone ostensibly interested in preventing offense in the
name of 'human decency', you sure write a mean-spirited post. And what
do you have against vegetables? You should take a laxative, and then sit
down for a while and breathe through your nose. I hope you feel
better...
Hector
William R Rodrick
ricm (rmu...@oro.net) wrote:
: It's this mindless blabber that perpetuates the
: racial bigotry and violence in this country. I am Japanese American, I didn't
: murder American servicemen. As a matter of fact several of my relatives served
: in WWII as my own family were left to rot in internment camps for three years
: after losing everything they had - all in the name of blind US patriotic
: correctness!
I wonder how many Americans today even know that this happened, and how many
of those who do know have asked themselves why there were no internment camps
constructed to house German or Italian-Americans.
Bill R.
Richard Lindsey
Hector <cha...@tempestsoft.com> wrote:
>Unfortunately, it does seem to be Politically Correct to jack your
>epithet detector into overdrive, and see everything as an insult, so you
>can have an apparent reason for the bile you go about pouring all over
>everyone.
Well, maybe .. but from what I've seen, most folks who make this
particular complaint tend to be talking about how *other* people are
so hypersensitive, not how they themselves are. It's pretty easy to
dismiss other people's feelings if you're not the object of the slur.
Things look different depending on what end of the telescope you're
looking through.
Richard
Guitar Al
Boy this is complicated. I agree that there are terrible hate filled
words that DO dehumanize people. We all know what these words are. They
have no place in decent society. But there are others, not so clear. Do
the British get upset at being called Britts. French-Frogs,
Canadians-Canucks, Americans-Yanks, Germans-Krauts, etc etc. I have used
Jap-without hatred, as an abbreviation.
As for the other aspects. The Japanese military empire of WWII murdered
millions of Chinese and of other Asians and to this day refuse to accept
responsibility for it, prefering to hide behind the accusation that it was
the US fault (because of the way the war ended with A-bomb). That is just
as brutal and heinous as what the Germans did in Europe, but at least the
Germans seem embarrassed by the era, and teach it as an evil in their own
history. But, the US treatment of Japanese_americans in WWII is pretty
inexcusable (if on a much smaller and less lethal scale). But, (wow this
is getting off track) lets not forget our (Americans) own great sins of
slavery and genocide of Native-Americans.
Well, as a last thought. I always say "Strat", does that make me a Fender
hater?
Al
Alan O'Tool
>And all the white folk in this country should continue to bear the
>responsibility of
>the evils of slavery 200 years ago? I sure hope not!
>
got news for you, asswipe, we sure the fuck are!
And let's not forget that if it wasn't for post-war American aid, Japan would
still be a backwards ass third world country.
And the only reason Germans weren't rounded up during the war is because there
wouldn't have been anyone smart enough left to run the country.
Slip Mahoney
Steve wrote:
>
> Go ahead and consider Jap a derogatory term if you wish. Nobody else is really
> say it's the Japanese who could have avoided this, had they not murdered so
> many American servicemen.
Hogwash. The term and its derogatory connotations are far older than
WWII. And Americans of Japanese descent, who were called "Japs" by white
American racists, had nothing to do with the militarist government of
Japan at the time. Now, just how were *they* supposed to avoid it,
genius?
Teuscher
Interesting points, but what we all have to remember is that the internet is global, not just
are local bbs stuff, and we have to be responsible for the reactions, not just by our standards,
but the standards of all those reading the post. There's 5 more letters in "Japanese" than "Jap",
it's not that hard and it increases the chance you'll be taken as a serious poster. Please, try
and remember just how many people have access to our messages.
Mike
Donnie Vazquez
Haywood Yu wrote:
>
> I am Asian and yes it does bug me when a racial slur is used, but I
> will yell until I'm hoarse that in a free society, I don't want anyone
> telling anyone else what words they can or can't use. Haywood
Bravo !!!!!!
--
/////////////////////////////////////////////////////
Donnie Vazquez Ph. 202-404-1298
Code 7643 Fax 202-404-8090
U.S. Naval Research Lab
Washington D.C. 20375 vaz...@uap.nrl.navy.mil
/////////////////////////////////////////////////////
\ _ /
\_(0)_/
+---=====(]( + )[)=====---+
* o @ o *
Olle Bridal
> >
>>> > While I know people mean no harm by abbreviating Japanese to
>Jap...Please
>>> > realize that the word "Jap" is a derogatory term -
>Just for info, in England, all the British guitar magazines carry ads
>of music stores and it always prints 'JAP Fender' guitars when they
>advertise Fenders made in Japan. It seems the Brits don't havethis
>hangup over political correctness like the Yanks are.
What's the matter with you people? The word "Jap" obviously has
a derogatory meaning to many people, so why keep defending its use?
If you can't see why it's derogatory, try to think about when this
word was coined and in which country. If you still don't get it,
go back to school and tell them that you want to relearn the American
history.
OK, back to guitars...
--
-----------------------------------------------------
Olle Bridal | Heard Backstage: "Will the
ol...@ce.chalmers.se | musicians and the drummer
| please come to the stage!"
Andre' Mielke
Anonymous X. Incognito wrote:
>
> That does it!!!
>
> I don't want to hear anyone ever calling it a "Mexi-Strat" ever again.
How about tacocaster ?
Nick :)
ricm
In article <54jdfm$k...@herald.concentric.net>, Ala...@interserv.net (Alan
O'Tool) wrote:
All of this talk about the new millenia? Shit! This is still the fucking
Dark Ages!
Hector
>
> > Go ahead and consider Jap a derogatory term if you wish. Nobody else is
> really
> > going to care. Any negative connotations to the term go back to WWII, so I'd
> > say it's the Japanese who could have avoided this, had they not murdered so
> > many American servicemen.
>
> responsibility of
> the evils of slavery 200 years ago? I sure hope not!
>
> racial bigotry and violence in this country. I am Japanese American, I didn't
> murder American servicemen. As a matter of fact several of my relatives served
> in WWII as my own family were left to rot in internment camps for three years
> after losing everything they had - all in the name of blind US patriotic
> correctness!
>
> bigotry!
Not fair comparing WWII crimes to slavery, for the following reason:
there are Americans alive today, whose well-remembered relatives were
murdered by Japanese war criminals, some of whom are still walking
around (by the way, cool your outrage. War criminals come in all
stripes, not just Japanese, OK? Nobody's saying they're all Japanese.
But there were/are Japanese ones, too);
......When was the last time you met a former slave owner? Or an
American born former slave? There is nobody alive anymore whose
grandparents were American slaves. Everyone who should pay is long dead.
And yet one still hears from people who should know it's racist, that
Affirmative Action is necessary to atone for our history of slavery.
They ought to get a life.
Hector
John R. Templeton
To argue so passionately for both sides of this issue shows commitment
to past and present activies. But how will the healing occur. When you
people argue about past incidents you bring it all back and make it
alive today. you fight battles for freedom of speach, for minority
rights and for people long gone. WIll it ever stop? DOn't think so. Why
not live your beliefs day to day, start with one person, rather that
perpetuate the hatred with an audience of millions looking on.
Regards,
Alan Franks
I'm surprised that no-one has brought up the word "Nip" as an
alternative to "Jap".
Nip-o-caster has a nice ring to it, eh?
Relax! Some of you guys need a Calgon and a highball.
-apf
Denis Chiasson wrote:
> Ha ha! i'm sorry if that offended anyone, but that just made me laugh so
> hard!! good one :)
Slip Mahoney
R. McPherson wrote:
>
> On 21 Oct 1996, KenO3 wrote:
>
> :Folks,
> :Get with it and don't stray off into space.
>
>
> : If "Jap" is offensive to
> : people (and I assure you, it can be) why not stop using it?
>
> may not be valid in the context in which the term is being used.
>
> :Just because you see
> :questionable terms in the press and in ads doesn't make them OK elsewhere
> :in the world.
>
> Just because someone else considers your term
> questionable does not mean they are correct and have the
> authority or license to censor your speech.
>
> : If you really want to communicate with someone (sell one
> :something or whatever), why chose terms that might offend them.
>
> If you really want to understand someone's communication, why not
> read it with the simplest and most generous interpretation
> instead of reading inlammatory derision into it and then
> challenging the language chosen in order to implicate underlying
> attitudes and incite argument without real foundation?
>
> Put simply:
> Abbreviations simplify communication. Abbreviations which are
> quickly recognized are more useful than obscure ones. Language
> should be interpretted in context. In the context of a GUITAR
> newsgroup where the country of manufacture for guitars is
> commonly discussed, it is a reasonable interpretation that US
> refers to United States of America, and Mex refers to Mexico and
> Jap refers to Japan with no intent to comment on the character of
> race or creed. Simply to abbreviate the geographical location.
>
> Perhaps you should be petitioning to install a new accepted
> abbreviation to be used on guitar newsgroups such as JPN for
> Japan, or MXO for Mexico, and AMA for America? This would
> satisfy all the purposes in that it would be a useful
> abbreviation that did not have any historic conotation.
>
> Historically, World War II was fought and during that war
> anti-Japan propaganda was spread in America and anti-American
> propaganda was spread in Japan. It is unreasonable to expect
> that the bigotry cultivated by the propaganda of that war is
> thriving on guitar newsgroups. Most of us are just discussing
> guitar makers.
>
> Nevertheless, it is worthy for those who choose to do so to be
> vigilant against the blatant bigotry which is deliberately spread
> across the internet by some. It is incumbent upon those who
> choose to oppose bigotry to make sure that they are attacking
> bigots and not attacking non-bigots. It is your responsibility
> to correctly pursue bigots and not to generalize your definition
> of bigotry to be all-inclusive and thus simplify your task by
> simply attacking everyone. At that point, you become the moral
> bigot in that you would impose your moral imperatives and thus
> encroach upon the freedoms of everyone.
>
> I don't think the Fender company is being prejudiced when they
> market a new line of Tex-Mex pickups. I don't think I was being
> prejudiced when I described how US-made strats have alder bodies
> and Jap-made strats have basswood bodies and Mex-strats have
> poplar bodies. I was just abbreviating.
>
> rjmc...@uci.edu R. McPherson, Psychobiology Dept, UC Irvine
Ridiculous. Your "abbreviation" is a slur, regardless of your
intentions. There is no way to make the word "nigger" innocent and
harmless, and there is no way to make the word "Jap" innocent and
harmless. It is a slur that most certainly predates WWII, and even if it
didn't, so what? It's still a slur. What's the matter, is it just too
much work to quit using it?
adam
I can’t believe what a bunch of sniveling winy PC baiting little pussys
exist out here on the usenet. Should I also be upset if a someone calls
a Jewish person a Jew?
Since we think in the form of language, those who try to control it are
really attempting to control your mind. (“ ƒ George Carlin ) And to
these potential mindfuckers out there I give you a hearty FUCK
Jeff Jourard
Hate to spoil the hate party, but to all you individuals who are so
cocky about how USA kicked everybody's ass in WWII ( well, yes we did)
if you go back and read how unbelieveably close to being ready Germany
was, with new aircraft, weapons and interference devices, man, we just
got thru the gate by a few months. We may have still won, but it would
have gotten real, real, bad first. I am pro-USA all the way, but
Germany was feeding this technology to Japan near the end of the war,
and we very nearly got it from both ends. WHEW! They were definitely
not slouches in the war department, and we just squeaked by by being
just barely first with the Big Guns. Of course England was hammering
Germany so hard they almost flattened the place, but still....
Eccles
Look, I hate to point it out, but if USA really did kick "everybody's"
ass, how come you go to say it was England that flattened Germany ?
Don't the British get any credit at all ? And by the way - it is
Britain, not just England, that participated in the defeat of Nazis.
(For the unenlightened, Britain = Wales, Scotland, N. Ireland and England).
Richard Lindsey
Hector <cha...@tempestsoft.com> wrote:
>Not fair comparing WWII crimes to slavery, for the following reason:
>there are Americans alive today, whose well-remembered relatives were
>murdered by Japanese war criminals, some of whom are still walking
>around (by the way, cool your outrage. War criminals come in all
>stripes, not just Japanese, OK? Nobody's saying they're all Japanese.
>But there were/are Japanese ones, too);
>......When was the last time you met a former slave owner? Or an
>American born former slave? There is nobody alive anymore whose
>grandparents were American slaves. Everyone who should pay is long dead.
>And yet one still hears from people who should know it's racist, that
>Affirmative Action is necessary to atone for our history of slavery.
>They ought to get a life.
>Hector
Well, slavery doesn't exist anymore, but racism sure does. I don't
know that affirmative action is any kind of long-term solution, but
don't kid yourself that things are hunky-dory now, racially speaking.
They're not. It could easily be argued that some of the effects of
slavery (which wasn't THAT long ago, in historical terms) are still
being felt today. Heck, segregation was legal in my lifetime and I'm
only 40. ("Only" 40, hah!). You could also argue that antiblack
racism has affected more people now living in some way than Japanese
WWII activities.
This is alt.guitar, right? ...
Richard
ricm
In article <326E1D...@tempestsoft.com>, Hector
<cha...@tempestsoft.com> wrote:
> Not fair comparing WWII crimes to slavery, for the following reason:
> there are Americans alive today, whose well-remembered relatives were
> murdered by Japanese war criminals, some of whom are still walking
> around (by the way, cool your outrage. War criminals come in all
> stripes, not just Japanese, OK? Nobody's saying they're all Japanese.
> But there were/are Japanese ones, too);
> ......When was the last time you met a former slave owner? Or an
> American born former slave? There is nobody alive anymore whose
> grandparents were American slaves. Everyone who should pay is long dead.
> And yet one still hears from people who should know it's racist, that
> Affirmative Action is necessary to atone for our history of slavery.
> They ought to get a life.
>
> Hector
Are you suggesting that I am to endure the possibility being beatin with a
lead pipe by some maniacal psychotic racist merely because of some
relative's harrowing recollection of past world events?
Fuck that! I refuse to "cool my outrage" when my family and I are continually
confronted by such ignorance! This is beyond mere semantics - there are
people getting the shit beat out of 'em merely for the color of their
skin - yea, folks - white people too!
How one can support such corrupt thought and heinous behavior
is beyond me!
Where are the other Asian Americans in this newsgroup - Speak Out!
Rick
Ryan A. O'Hara
In article <326E5E...@bowery.com>, mah...@bowery.com wrote:
>
>Ridiculous. Your "abbreviation" is a slur, regardless of your
>intentions. There is no way to make the word "nigger" innocent and
>harmless, and there is no way to make the word "Jap" innocent and
>harmless. It is a slur that most certainly predates WWII, and even if it
>didn't, so what? It's still a slur. What's the matter, is it just too
>much work to quit using it?
I usually would never bother replaying to something like this on a GUITAR
newsgroup, but this is absurd!
Your comparison of the word "nigger" to the word "Jap" is very poorly thought
out. I would have to say, wether it be an acceptable one or not, "Jap" could
be an abbreviation for Japanese, where can think of no word that "nigger" is a
abbreviation for.
Also, when did the word "Jap" become so terrible? I have never heard it used
in a bad way. Come to think of it, I rarely here it ever even said!
If the guy says it was an abbreviation, then so be it! You have made your
point, now get on with your life!
Bob
In article <326E5E...@bowery.com>,
Slip Mahoney <mah...@bowery.com> wrote:
Ridiculous. Your "abbreviation" is a slur, regardless of your
intentions. There is no way to make the word "nigger" innocent and
harmless, and there is no way to make the word "Jap" innocent and
harmless. It is a slur that most certainly predates WWII, and even if it
didn't, so what? It's still a slur. What's the matter, is it just too
much work to quit using it?
I think you have really shown what a moron you are, Slip. Nigger is not an
abreviation, it is a derogatory term out and out by itself.
I have read your countless replies to this thread, and it's obvious you have a
problem accepting who you are. (I'm assuming your Japanese) If you were truly
proud of who and what you are, you wouldn't care what anyone called you. But
only if you are truly a better person than them. Think about it Einstein.
(Oh, by the way, Einstein was one of us)
R. McPherson
:R. McPherson wrote:
:>
:> The answer is that the basis for the offense taken by the reader
:> may not be valid in the context in which the term is being used.
:>
:> Just because someone else considers your term
:> questionable does not mean they are correct and have the
:> authority or license to censor your speech.
:>
:> It is incumbent upon those who
:> choose to oppose bigotry to make sure that they are attacking
:> bigots and not attacking non-bigots. It is your responsibility
:> to correctly pursue bigots and not to generalize your definition
:> of bigotry to be all-inclusive and thus simplify your task by
:> simply attacking everyone. At that point, you become the moral
:> bigot in that you would impose your moral imperatives and thus
:> encroach upon the freedoms of everyone.
:
On Wed, 23 Oct 1996, Slip Mahoney wrote:
:Ridiculous. Your "abbreviation" is a slur, regardless of your
:intentions.
Wrong. This is your faulty assumption. This is your moral
bigotry where you attempt to censor and dictate language. This is
where you fail to meet the responsiblitly of opposing bigotry and
instead just wholesale impose your own moral bigotry.
:There is no way to make the word "nigger" innocent and
:harmless, ..
Wrong. This language is used in a friendly slang form within
communities all the time. Further, use of such language in art
to convey either the friendly or the deragatory conotation is
meaningful and valid. Art is a form of speech and speech is a
protected freedom which you don't seem to recognize. Again you
are compelled to interpret meaning. You become a bigot if you
deny that.
:..and there is no way to make the word "Jap" innocent and
:harmless. It is a slur that most certainly predates WWII, and even if it
:didn't, so what? It's still a slur. What's the matter, is it just too
:much work to quit using it?
Wrong and condescending.
Dave Shapiro
Hector (cha...@tempestsoft.com) wrote:
[snip]
: I got a news flash for you, hoss: In a free society, you must put up
: with anything anyone might say.(Actions are another matter...)
[snip]
This is incorrect. I don't know where this notion of "free speech = put up
with whatever I say" comes from, but it can be in direct conflict with other
provisions, say, the right to "life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness."
Example: Verbally assaulting someone might make them unhappy. Unnecessarily
unhappy. We have laws that protect people and organizations against such
actions (and speaking is an action, by the way). How 'bout slander?
The next time you think that people "must put up with anything anyone might
say" in a "free society", go up to your local police officer and tell him/her
that he/she is a "fucking pig" and that you're "going to kill him [or her]".
Then tell me how they put up with it.
: Maybe you should write your Congress-fascist and have a law passed.
: Or you could grow up.
Most people who "grow up" don't resort to name-calling and labeling to try
to make a point. Slinging around words like "fascist" do little to address
the issue, and much to address the emotions. Pot. Kettle. Black.
Dave
dsh...@argo.ecte.uswc.uswest.com
Richard Lindsey
"R. McPherson" <rjmc...@rigel.oac.uci.edu> wrote:
>:
>On Wed, 23 Oct 1996, Slip Mahoney wrote:
>:Ridiculous. Your "abbreviation" is a slur, regardless of your
>:intentions.
>Wrong. This is your faulty assumption. This is your moral
>bigotry where you attempt to censor and dictate language. This is
>where you fail to meet the responsiblitly of opposing bigotry and
>instead just wholesale impose your own moral bigotry.
No, *you're* wrong. Asking for politeness is not censorship. Nor is
calling someone to task if you think they've messed up. Criticizing
the use of bigoted language is in fact opposing bigotry, and it's odd
that you can't see that. Nobody's saying kick these guys off the net,
but personally, I choose who I want to talk to and listen to in this
and other NGs, and I don't really feel like dealing with people who
lack the basic respect for others inherent in deliberately using terms
that obviously at least some people find offensive. If, for instance,
I were to use the term "redneck" without trying to be offensive, but
someone got offended anyway, it doesn't seem like such a big issue to
try not to use it. English is rich enough and my vocabulary good
enough to provide another way of saying what I want to.
>:There is no way to make the word "nigger" innocent and
>:harmless, ..
>Wrong. This language is used in a friendly slang form within
>communities all the time.
Yes, note that "within communities." Some things are acceptable from
a member of a community, but not from an outsider. This is true of a
wide range of communities. There was a good article on this in
Natural History a few months back.
> Further, use of such language in art
>to convey either the friendly or the deragatory conotation is
>meaningful and valid. Art is a form of speech and speech is a
>protected freedom which you don't seem to recognize. Again you
>are compelled to interpret meaning. You become a bigot if you
>deny that.
I didn't know we were making art here! :-) Again, no one is saying
you don't have the freedom to use the word. Some of us, at least, are
saying that out of courtesy you should refrain from using it, and
perhaps, as a moral/ethical but NOT legal matter, you should ask
yourself why you need to use a term that you have repeatedly been told
is derogatory.
>:..and there is no way to make the word "Jap" innocent and
>:harmless. It is a slur that most certainly predates WWII, and even if it
>:didn't, so what? It's still a slur. What's the matter, is it just too
>:much work to quit using it?
>Wrong and condescending.
I think the poster is right and you're wrong. Your post sounded far
more condescending, actually.
Richard Lindsey
Bob
In article <Dzs8I...@news2.new-york.net>,
rlin...@rivertown.net (Richard Lindsey) wrote:
>>Ridiculous. Your "abbreviation" is a slur, regardless of your
>>harmless, and there is no way to make the word "Jap" innocent and
>>harmless. It is a slur that most certainly predates WWII, and even if it
>>didn't, so what? It's still a slur. What's the matter, is it just too
>>much work to quit using it?
>
an
>>abreviation, it is a derogatory term out and out by itself.
>
>derogatory is. Name-calling ("moron") is usually a sign of a weak
>argument.
>
Not true. Slip's comparison of Jap and the "N" word is truely moronic.Jap
is
an abreviation of Japanese, which refers to the NATION of Japan. The "N"
word
is a derogatory racist term referring to the Negroid people.
>> If you were truly
>>proud of who and what you are, you wouldn't care what anyone called you.
But
>>only if you are truly a better person than them.
>
>Do you apply these rules to yourself? That is, can anyone come up in
>your face and call you anything he wants? And apply the same names to
>your wife/girlfriend/significant other, your kids, your family, your
>friends? And you just say, "OK, call me anything you want"? If so,
>that's quite remarkable.
>
Absolutely. I belong to a minority group and have to deal with
persecution,
however subtle, everyday. I beleive that anyone who makes a point of it is
mearly proving their inferiority to me, and I pay no attention to them.
There are a lot of groups in this country always rambling on about their
troubles, justified or not. Considering what an economic powerhouse Japan
has
become, and how much better educated and hard working they are, I
personally
hold the Japanese in high regard. I'm not sure I see where they have
anythng
to bitch about.
>> Think about it Einstein.
>
>>(Oh, by the way, Einstein was one of us)
>
>What is that supposed to mean?
>
>Richard Lindsey
Obviously went over your head. Sorry. Try again.
Let me sign off to this thread forever by saying that there are abreviated
words for virtually every nation and race on earth, ie Swede, Brit, Gerry,
Yank, Jap, etc., with no negative connotations expressed or implied.
Anyone
who has a problem with it does so because THEY want to have a problem with
it.
Zinger
rlin...@rivertown.net (Richard Lindsey) wrote:
>adam <ad...@ingress.com> wrote:
>>I canít believe what a bunch of sniveling winy PC baiting little pussys
>>exist out here on the usenet. Should I also be upset if a someone calls
>>a Jewish person a Jew?
>Well, why don't you ask Jewish people? As the people on the receiving
>end, their opinions ought to carry at least a little weight, wouldn't
>you say?
>>Since we think in the form of language, those who try to control it are
>>really attempting to control your mind. (ì É George Carlin ) And to
>>these potential mindfuckers out there I give you a hearty FUCK
>Wouldn't it follow, then, that how you speak is connected to who you
>are? What does the knowing use of offensive terms say about the
>speaker?
>Richard Lindsey
Since when are people so thin-skinned? I have friends who I sometimes
rib about being "spics" and in turn, they call me a "coonass" (a
somewhat derogatory term for cajun) What's the need to get so serious
about this?
The intent of whichever poster it was to call it a Jap Strat was not
malicious, it seems to me. Isn't that good enough? Or should we
strive to be sniveling, little politically correct weasels? That's
what's destroying the fabric of this country.
A far greater problem than racism is the amount of people pointing
fingers and crying racism, like crying wolf. It begins to dilute the
effect. Sooner or later no one pays attention anymore.
To the original poster of this thread, and Mr. Lindsey, I suggest you
lighten up a bit, and quit looking for trouble. Believe me, no one
means any harm in calling it a Jap anything.
check out my homepage and guitar links at www.cajunnet.com/~epguidry
Slip Mahoney
Ryan A. O'Hara wrote:
>
> In article <326E5E...@bowery.com>, mah...@bowery.com wrote:
> >
> >Ridiculous. Your "abbreviation" is a slur, regardless of your
> >intentions. There is no way to make the word "nigger" innocent and
> >harmless, and there is no way to make the word "Jap" innocent and
> >harmless. It is a slur that most certainly predates WWII, and even if it
> >didn't, so what? It's still a slur. What's the matter, is it just too
> >much work to quit using it?
>
> newsgroup, but this is absurd!
>
> Your comparison of the word "nigger" to the word "Jap" is very poorly thought
> out. I would have to say, wether it be an acceptable one or not, "Jap" could
> be an abbreviation for Japanese, where can think of no word that "nigger" is a
> abbreviation for.
>
> Also, when did the word "Jap" become so terrible? I have never heard it used
> in a bad way. Come to think of it, I rarely here it ever even said!
>
> If the guy says it was an abbreviation, then so be it! You have made your
> point, now get on with your life!
You display your ignorance to the world, you practically BRAG about it,
and then you presume to tell me what to do? Not likely, sonny. Back to
your homework.
Slip Mahoney
Steve wrote:
>
> In article <326B9A...@bowery.com>, Slip Mahoney <mah...@bowery.com> wrote:
>
> >Oh, by the way, you're no longer a "Nordic American," you're a waste of
> >protoplasm. Think how many perfectly good garden slugs could have been
> >made from the likes of you. What a pity.
>
> If I were an oriental and considered the wide array of derogatory terms for
> asians, none of which I'll have the courtesy to mention here, I'd be satisfied
> with being called a Jap.
>
> How many people would think twice about referring to a Swedish person as a
> Swede? How is that any less derogatory than Jap. Or a Gerry, Yank, or Brit? I
> suppose maybe we're just a little more secure and don't have to dream up
> problems about how our poor little group is being persecuted. Take some
> earlier advise and put your energy into something useful.
Well, you're NOT Asian, so it's really not up to you, is it? And I spend
my energy combatting racism and bigotry because it's the right thing to
do. If you were unaware that "Jap" is derogatory, that's one thing. If
you have since been made aware but insist on using it anyway, that's
quite another. That, my friend, is racism.
Slip Mahoney
James P. H. Fuller wrote:
>
> Slip Mahoney (mah...@bowery.com) wrote:
>
> : What an incredible dumbfuck! You take the cake. "JAP" IS NOT THE SAME AS
> : "JAPANESE," you benighted shit-for-brains! For the last time, and I
> : don't know why I'm bothering to try to educate the uneducable,
> : "Japanese" denotes nationality; "Jap" is a SLUR, like "chink" or
> : "nigger" or "Hebe" or "spic." Where the fuck are you from, Mars? Go
> : ahead, Einstein: ask your "good friends" if "Jap" is okay; ask'em if
> : they like it. And that's "JAP," you weasely little protozoan, NOT
> : "Japanese." Got it? GOT IT? Nah, I didn't think so.
>
> Here speaketh the one who was lecturing us on "common human decency."
> Since I'm in favor of tribal warfare I'd like to welcome the example
> you're setting, Slop. Every little bit helps.
>
> - JF
So the little weasel posted a totally dishonest reply and I read him the
riot act. So what? You want tribal warfare, Fullershit? Just keep on
defending racism and racists. I got your warfare right here, buddy.
Daddy-O
Hector wrote:
>
> Daddy-O wrote:
> >
> > Hector wrote:
> > >
> > > Note wrote:
> > > >
> > > > While I know people mean no harm by abbreviating Japanese to Jap...Please
> > > > recent filth flooding this newsgroup.
> > > >
> > > > BTW: Please stop responding to flame bait - it just serves to repeat the
> > > > offending posters message over and over.
> > >
> > > Note:
> > >
> > > Offended on behalf of a guitar: how sensitive and liberal, how very
> > > current...
> > >
> > > Please realize that perception of a term as derogatory is an action
> > > performed by the reader, not the writer. Please accept yourself for
> > > whatever you are, and then maybe you won't have to follow the current
> > > liberal trend of taking away everyone else's freedoms so that your
> > > oh-so-delicate feelings won't be hurt.
> > >
> > > Hector
> > > (a dago, for whomever it may matter to...my apologies to the
> > > non-racists, who realize on their own that it makes no difference.)
> >
> > What utter right-wing hogwash: bemoaning the fact that people won't put
> > up with racial and ethnic slurs any more. Oh, you have a precious
> > "right" to use "Jap" and "dago" if you want to, and no one has taken
> > that "right" from you. But calling a Japanese-made guitar a "Jap" guitar
> > is no different from calling a Mexican-made guitar a "spic" guitar or a
> > Korean-made guitar a "gook" guitar, which Note was POLITELY pointing
> > out. No, no one is taking away your right to be an asshole. Please
> > realize that your perception of the word "asshole" has nothing to do
> > with my intent. I merely wrote it; I bear no responsibility for its
> > connotations.
> >
> > Daddy-O
>
> People "won't put up with" racial slurs anymore??? I got a news flash
> for you, hoss: In a free society, you must put up with anything anyone
> even like it, but the fascists haven't won yet (not that President and
> Mr. Clinton aren't trying).
>
> You can vote for whoever the F*** you want. I just resent being told
> what words I can use. Personally, I don't use a lot of slurs (like the
> stuff you've posted over the last several weeks that landed you in my
> killfile) in my daily speech and writing. I just think that if someone
> is an asshole, it's his weakness, and he has to live with its
> consequences (being shunned by reasonable people); I just don't think
> there should be laws against it, as Bill Clinton does. A person who says
> N**g*r is an asshole, but at the end of the day, if he hasn't harmed
> anyone, he's just an asshole. So leave him alone. Don't waste your time
> on him. Find other friends. But don't pass another bulls*** law. There's
> too many of them now.
>
> Incidentally, Jap (the "slur" that all this crap was over in the 1st
> place) is a lot quicker to type as a descriptor of a guitar than
> "Japanese", and I've never seen a guitar take offense at it. Too bad so
> many of you are so quick to decide you're offended. In better times,
> simple maturity solved the problem. When some idiot called you a name,
> you considered the source, and walked on. Seems we've been losing it as
> a society since the 40s or so, which I'd go back to in a second. The
> worst thing that could happen to you in a bar was a fistfight. Well, at
> least I can remember those days...
>
> Hector
>
> PS: I gather from your bogus return path, that you've found that there
> are some who would apply a certain a-word to you as well. Maybe you
> should write your Congress-fascist and have a law passed. Or you could
> grow up.
First off, where in the hell do you get off telling this ng that I've
posted slurs for the past several weeks? That's an outright lie, and I'd
watch it if I were you. Two can play that game. Second, who the hell's
talking about passing laws, besides you? What kind of paranoid are you?
Maybe you should go join a militia or something. Third, I have a news
flash for you, hoss. In a free society, people can stand up to racism
and racists any time they rear their rotten little heads. People aren't
required to sit and suffer in silence. Speaking of laws and fistfights,
the courts DO recognize the concept of "fighting words," so the next
time you call somebody a "Jap" and you get your nose flattened for it,
don't be too surprised when the court dismisses your assault charges.
Fourth, what do you care about my return path? Couldn't get your hate
mail through? Fifth, I agree with you that anyone who uses slurs like
"nigger" or "Jap" is indeed an asshole. YOU said it, pal.
Daddy-O
Doug
Here we go again........
It always comes back to racism bullshit bickering doesn't it? Have you
people had enough yet? No, I'm not an insensative, angry white bigot.
Just a guy who likes to play guitar. I've got to log out now, and go
practice for the upcoming gig.
See ya,
Doug
Dave Shapiro
Zinger (Manso...@fuckyou.com) wrote:
: The intent of whichever poster it was to call it a Jap Strat was not
: malicious, it seems to me. Isn't that good enough?
No, it's not. Usage of the word 'Jap' offends a lot of people. Period.
The original poster simply asked that you refrain from using the term, and
asked instead for people to use 'Japanese'. That's it.
At this point I suppose I'll get attacked, a la "Oh great. First we can't
use Jap, next it'll be Jew, then Yankee, then Brit. Pretty soon we won't be
able to say *anything* without getting in trouble." This 'slippery slope'
theory -- give 'em an inch, they take a mile -- doesn't hold here. Jap is
considered offensive; Brit not nearly as much, for whatever reason.
Soooo...you are advised not to use the word Jap. That's all.
: Or should we strive to be sniveling, little politically correct weasels?
Name-calling will get you nowhere. Why must it be one extreme ("you must
put up with whatever I say") or the other ("sniveling little politically
correct weasals")?
: That's what's destroying the fabric of this country.
I doubt it. That's a pretty grandiose effect for such a small cause.
I'd say overpopulation is a more significant culprit.
: To the original poster of this thread, and Mr. Lindsey, I suggest you
: lighten up a bit, and quit looking for trouble. Believe me, no one
: means any harm in calling it a Jap anything.
Fact: By continuing to use the word 'Jap', you will be offending many people.
They won't like it. Will you offend people by using the word 'Brit'? Not
nearly as many. Maybe none. Where's the cutoff point between what you can
and can't use? Somewhere in between. Really, it's on a case-by-case basis.
That's the way things work.
: check out my homepage and guitar links at www.cajunnet.com/~epguidry
Just did. Liked Felix. The blue tie-dye background is a bit much. Cute
animations, though.
Dave
dsh...@argo.ecte.uswc.uswest.com
Richard Lindsey
Manso...@fuckyou.com ( Zinger) wrote:
>rlin...@rivertown.net (Richard Lindsey) wrote:
>>adam <ad...@ingress.com> wrote:
>>>I can’t believe what a bunch of sniveling winy PC baiting little pussys
>>>exist out here on the usenet. Should I also be upset if a someone calls
>>>a Jewish person a Jew?
>>Well, why don't you ask Jewish people? As the people on the receiving
>>end, their opinions ought to carry at least a little weight, wouldn't
>>you say?
>>>Since we think in the form of language, those who try to control it are
>>>really attempting to control your mind. (“ ƒ George Carlin ) And to
>>>these potential mindfuckers out there I give you a hearty FUCK
>>Wouldn't it follow, then, that how you speak is connected to who you
>>are? What does the knowing use of offensive terms say about the
>>speaker?
>>Richard Lindsey
>Since when are people so thin-skinned? I have friends who I sometimes
>rib about being "spics" and in turn, they call me a "coonass" (a
>somewhat derogatory term for cajun) What's the need to get so serious
>about this?
You can call your friends whatever they'll permit! :-) Of course,
they're your friends. The original point was how the word sounds to
peple you don't well or even at all. That's what courtesy is all
about.
>The intent of whichever poster it was to call it a Jap Strat was not
>malicious, it seems to me. Isn't that good enough?
That may be, but how are readers of the post supposed to know that?
Most of the time, we don't know the poster, and we certainly can't see
facial expressions or hear tones of voice. Is it such a weird idea to
avoid potentially offensive terms so as not to be misunderstood?
> Or should we
>strive to be sniveling, little politically correct weasels? That's
>what's destroying the fabric of this country.
If you think that's the biggest problem this country faces, look a
little harder. A lot of this complaining about "political
correctness" sounds like whining. It's such a hardship being expected
to show some common courtesy.
> A far greater problem than racism is the amount of people pointing
>fingers and crying racism, like crying wolf. It begins to dilute the
>effect. Sooner or later no one pays attention anymore.
If you think that's really the greater problem, I think you're not
paying attention. And noone ever said saying "Jap" proves you're a
rtacist. Using it in the absence of any mitigating context makes you
sound as if you might well be.
>To the original poster of this thread, and Mr. Lindsey, I suggest you
>lighten up a bit, and quit looking for trouble.
"Looking for trouble"?
> Believe me, no one
>means any harm in calling it a Jap anything.
With respect, I *don't* believe you, because you're not qualified to
make that blanket pronouncement. You may not mean any harm, and other
people may not, but how can you possibly say that no one does? I
personally have met a number of people who do.
Personally, I think most of the arguments have been played out here.
Anyone else agree?
So what about those guitars? American, Japanese, Mexican, Chinese,
etc.
Richard Lindsey
Richard Lindsey
George Kirk u
ricm (rmu...@oro.net) wrote:
: In article <326E1D...@tempestsoft.com>, Hector
: <cha...@tempestsoft.com> wrote:
:
: > ricm wrote:
: > >
: > > In article <54ik04$3...@herald.concentric.net>, we...@concentric.net (Steve)
: > > wrote:
: > >
: > > > Go ahead and consider Jap a derogatory term if you wish. Nobody else is
: > > really
: WWII, so I'd
: > > > say it's the Japanese who could have avoided this, had they not
: murdered so
: > > > many American servicemen.
Of course the Americans were innocent of any wrongdoing....Remember: War
Criminals are always found on the losers side, rarely on the
victor's...to them, they're "heroes".
: > > racial bigotry and violence in this country. I am Japanese American, I
: didn't
: > > murder American servicemen. As a matter of fact several of my
: relatives served
: > > in WWII as my own family were left to rot in internment camps for
: three years
: > > after losing everything they had - all in the name of blind US patriotic
: > > correctness!
That's what happens when you have a historically ignorant public that
believes all the rhetoric that is a part of popular North American myth
and doesn't have the research or critical thinking skills (or
open-mindedness) to even bother checking these things out!
: > ......When was the last time you met a former slave owner? Or an
: > American born former slave? There is nobody alive anymore whose
: > grandparents were American slaves. Everyone who should pay is long dead.
: > And yet one still hears from people who should know it's racist, that
: > Affirmative Action is necessary to atone for our history of slavery.
: > They ought to get a life.
Well, I don't agree with affirmative action. It cures the visible
symptoms of a problem rather than the problem itself. But humans are
really quite stupid and emotional, rather than logical and objective
(shit, I sound like Spock....yikes!)
: Fuck that! I refuse to "cool my outrage" when my family and I are continually
: confronted by such ignorance! This is beyond mere semantics - there are
: people getting the shit beat out of 'em merely for the color of their
: skin - yea, folks - white people too!
Saying "Jap Strat" does not, IMO, constitute a racist remark. IF Jap is a
contraction of Japanese (like Rob is of Robert, or Tom of Thomas) then
it's not racist. Whether or not the user of the term means it in a racist
way is hard to discern, but we can't infringe their right to use it just
to be politically correct. I would hope that people using "Jap Strat" are
doing it for abbrevation's sake rather than to condemn the Japanese
people as a whole.
Keep in mind I'm a Canadian, I've almost got my BA in History and
Political Science, and I like to think that I can examine things
critically without swallowing what''s fed to me daily through the media,
books, professors and other forms of institutional conformity.
George
Richard Lindsey
crx...@concentric.net (Bob) wrote:
>In article <326E5E...@bowery.com>,
> Slip Mahoney <mah...@bowery.com> wrote:
>Ridiculous. Your "abbreviation" is a slur, regardless of your
>intentions. There is no way to make the word "nigger" innocent and
>harmless, and there is no way to make the word "Jap" innocent and
>harmless. It is a slur that most certainly predates WWII, and even if it
>didn't, so what? It's still a slur. What's the matter, is it just too
>much work to quit using it?
>I think you have really shown what a moron you are, Slip. Nigger is not an
>abreviation, it is a derogatory term out and out by itself.
Whether it's an abbreviation is hardly the point. Whether it's
derogatory is. Name-calling ("moron") is usually a sign of a weak
argument.
>I have read your countless replies to this thread, and it's obvious you have a
>problem accepting who you are. (I'm assuming your Japanese)
Why? Do you think that only Japanese Americans would find this
offensive?
> If you were truly
>proud of who and what you are, you wouldn't care what anyone called you. But
>only if you are truly a better person than them.
Do you apply these rules to yourself? That is, can anyone come up in
your face and call you anything he wants? And apply the same names to
your wife/girlfriend/significant other, your kids, your family, your
friends? And you just say, "OK, call me anything you want"? If so,
that's quite remarkable.
> Think about it Einstein.
Lisa Harris
One of the seven Fender Custom Shop master builders is Yasuhiko Iwanade.
So if you want a real "honky strat" and you've got your eye on that nice
Custom Shop Strat you'll have to play the percentages... Of course you
could always call Fender with the serial number before buying it to make
sure he didn't get his hands on it, then you could rest assured you got
yourself a genuine "American made" guitar.
And another consideration, one of the main setup guys at the Fender
factory in CA is Albert Garcia, who probably set up your good ole
American Standard...
You would think Fender could screen out these undesirables so that we
could all sleep easier.
Craig Wu
Kevin Pausche
Dave Shapiro <dsh...@argo.ecte.uswc.uswest.com> wrote in article
<54olcl$m...@aeon.ecte.uswc.uswest.com>...
> Zinger (Manso...@fuckyou.com) wrote:
> No, it's not. Usage of the word 'Jap' offends a lot of people. Period.
> The original poster simply asked that you refrain from using the term,
and
> asked instead for people to use 'Japanese'. That's it.
Excuse me, but exactly who defines what is and what is not a "racist" term?
And where do you get off on telling people what they can and cannot say?
Do you seriously believe that people posting, for example "FS: Jap
Telecaster", is an act of racism against Japanese people? Sorry, but I
don't buy that at all.
> Fact: By continuing to use the word 'Jap', you will be offending many
people.
> They won't like it. Will you offend people by using the word 'Brit'? Not
> nearly as many. Maybe none. Where's the cutoff point between what you can
> and can't use? Somewhere in between. Really, it's on a case-by-case
basis.
> That's the way things work.
If they are offended, so be it. I'm sure I would offend many people if I
said "Gibsons/Fenders suck", but that's life! There's always such a thing
as not reading a message. Again, where is this definition of racism? The
whole world is so stuck on labelling everything and anything "racist", that
the word has become a cliche. Maybe everybody should just lighten up
and/or get a life.
Ben Turek
I thought that was a newsgroup dedicated to the guitar, but I have been know to
be wrong. I only want to say that 'Jap' should not be offensive to anyone when
it is used to describe a guitar. I had a "Jap" Strat and it didn't mind my ca
lling it "jap". I don't think that it is a racial slur. It is a nationality n
ot a race. They, as us all, belong to the human race. It dumb asses that mist
ake it for a race.
FuzzMudd
Maybe the original poster should have just called it a CRAPANESE STRAT and
left it at that.
Alan Bossir
In article <54qqgm$a...@probe.netcommcorp.com>,
Do...@netcommcorp.com (Doug) wrote:
>dsh...@argo.ecte.uswc.uswest.com (Dave Shapiro) wrote:
>
><Everything snipped exept this>
>
>>Fact: By continuing to use the word 'Jap', you will be offending many
people.
>>They won't like it. Will you offend people by using the word 'Brit'? Not
>>nearly as many. Maybe none. Where's the cutoff point between what you can
>>and can't use? Somewhere in between. Really, it's on a case-by-case basis.
>>That's the way things work.
>
>
>WHY would a "Brit" (British), person not be offended by the
>abbreviation, when a "Jap" (Japanese) person is?
>
>Just because of WWII? And why just the Japanese?
>
>Hypathetically speaking, would the following scenario also be true?
>
>The British brutally attack the USA. The USA reponds, (coins the term
>"Brit" during the war), and eventually crushes them. Would the term
>"Brit" now be a racial slur?
>
>Doug
>
>
Didn't your hypathetical scenario actually take place a couple hundred years
ago?
Hector
Daddy-O wrote:
>
> First off, where in the hell do you get off telling this ng that I've
> posted slurs for the past several weeks? That's an outright lie, and I'd
> watch it if I were you. Two can play that game. Second, who the hell's
> talking about passing laws, besides you? What kind of paranoid are you?
> Maybe you should go join a militia or something. Third, I have a news
> flash for you, hoss. In a free society, people can stand up to racism
> and racists any time they rear their rotten little heads. People aren't
> required to sit and suffer in silence. Speaking of laws and fistfights,
> the courts DO recognize the concept of "fighting words," so the next
> time you call somebody a "Jap" and you get your nose flattened for it,
> don't be too surprised when the court dismisses your assault charges.
> Fourth, what do you care about my return path? Couldn't get your hate
> mail through? Fifth, I agree with you that anyone who uses slurs like
> "nigger" or "Jap" is indeed an asshole. YOU said it, pal.
>
> Daddy-O
Look, son, first of all, I tried to reply to your crap personally to
spare the ng having to read off-topic stuff. Read a FAQ. That's the way
it should be done. Again, my humble apologies to all. This is my last on
the subject, I promise.
Next, maybe you should check with a lawyer. Those assault charges would
not be dismissed by any ethical judge in this country. If you are a
lawyer as well, cite a precedent. The guys can't wait to hear this: "He
insulted me" as a successful defense for assault.
Since you are clearly too incandescent with barbaric fury to notice, I
never called anyone any ethnic, racial, or national epithet. I have
friends in Japan, as well as Germany, Italy, Korea, Scandinavia, and
other nations too numerous to mention. I have been lucky to have
travelled a lot in the last several dozen years. I have learned many of
their languages. You obviously stopped reading after I said whoever
calls Jap (to people, not guitars), or Ni****, or any of the others is
an asshole. What followed was a humbly suggested response: Leave them
alone! Give them time to grow up! Don't put your filthy hands on them,
as you threatened in your post. Fight for civilization by example:
control *yourself* -- show people how it's done.
Now, as I promised, I will forever leave this topic with these thoughts:
1. Civilization is the responsibility of the individual. No government
or law can impose it, and efforts toward that end will not only fail,
but will strip whatever remaining freedom we currently enjoy.
2. Let's all try to expect better from *ourselves*, and have some
charity for others as they stumble (as we will, at times) in that
struggle. Being human isn't easy, and until you're perfect, don't go
around thinking that that's the absolute minimum standard others have to
achieve in dealing with you.
3. Violence is not justified by any words, regardless of what the
above-quoted individual thinks.
4. In the words of a Philosopher named Bob (sorry, Bob, whoever you
are!),
"Let me sign off to this thread forever by saying that there are
abreviated words for virtually every nation and race on earth, ie Swede,
Brit, Gerry, Yank, Jap, etc., with no negative connotations expressed or
implied. Anyone who has a problem with it does so because THEY want to
have a problem with it."
Short, sweet, and directly to the point. Wish I'd said it. Peace to all.
Even Daddy-O.
Hector
Dave Shapiro
Kevin Pausche (sh...@dsoe.com) wrote:
[snip]
: And where do you get off on telling people what they can and cannot say?
: Telecaster", is an act of racism against Japanese people? Sorry, but I
: don't buy that at all.
I'm not telling anyone what they can and cannot say. You can use the word
'Jap' if you want to. But people have asked you not to. Why not show some
courtesy and respect for their feelings by using 'Japanese'?
I think everyone realizes that no harm is meant by saying 'Jap Strat'.
Unfortunately, the term 'Jap' carries a little weight with it, moreso than
words like 'Brit' and 'Yankee'. We'd do well, I think, to eliminate usage
of the word 'Jap'.
Like I said, use the word 'Jap' if you want, but bear in mind that people
have shown sensitivity to its usage, and you could demonstrate some real
integrity by respecting their feelings. I don't think that's really that
out of the question.
Dave
dsh...@argo.ecte.uswc.uswest.com
Dave Shapiro
Doug (Do...@netcommcorp.com) wrote:
: A question for you sir,
: WHY would a "Brit" (British), person not be offended by the
: abbreviation, when a "Jap" (Japanese) person is?
: Just because of WWII? And why just the Japanese?
: Hypathetically speaking, would the following scenario also be true?
: The British brutally attack the USA. The USA reponds, (coins the term
: "Brit" during the war), and eventually crushes them. Would the term
: "Brit" now be a racial slur?
: Please do not misunderstand. I am not advocating, or justifying racist
: slurs. I simply fail to see the difference. (When looked at globally,
: and without a bias to history, or any one country)
I don't know the history behind the terms 'Jap' and 'Brit'. From what I've
heard, the offensiveness of 'Jap' extends beyond WWII. I only know the
outcome of their usages: 'Jap' tends to be offensive, 'Brit' far less so.
I can't make predictions on the future of what's acceptable and what's not.
I will speculate, however, that the scenario you presented might very well
turn the term 'Brit' into an offensive one. Incidentally, 'Brit' was used
very casually in an episode of "Frasier" last night.
I appreciate your civility in discussing this. I believe that you can't
ask people to not be offended by a term. This is a tough one to judge, but
why not give them the benefit of the doubt, and deem 'Jap' to be offensive?
Dave
dsh...@argo.ecte.uswest.com
Doug
dsh...@argo.ecte.uswc.uswest.com (Dave Shapiro) wrote:
<Everything snipped exept this>
>Fact: By continuing to use the word 'Jap', you will be offending many people.
>They won't like it. Will you offend people by using the word 'Brit'? Not
>nearly as many. Maybe none. Where's the cutoff point between what you can
>and can't use? Somewhere in between. Really, it's on a case-by-case basis.
>That's the way things work.
A question for you sir,
WHY would a "Brit" (British), person not be offended by the
abbreviation, when a "Jap" (Japanese) person is?
Just because of WWII? And why just the Japanese?
Hypathetically speaking, would the following scenario also be true?
The British brutally attack the USA. The USA reponds, (coins the term
"Brit" during the war), and eventually crushes them. Would the term
"Brit" now be a racial slur?
Please do not misunderstand. I am not advocating, or justifying racist
slurs. I simply fail to see the difference. (When looked at globally,
and without a bias to history, or any one country)
Thanks,
Doug
Jeff
Lisa Harris wrote:
>
> One of the seven Fender Custom Shop master builders is Yasuhiko Iwanade.
Finally, someone makes this somewhat(slightly) relevant to alt.guitar.
How about this ... let's make an
alt.nigger.jap.and.other.stupid.stuff.not.belonging.in.alt.guitar
newsgroup. There, all of you can argue it out without subjecting us and
our servers to it. Otherwise, let's leave it alone.
Thanks.
R. McPherson
: Do...@netcommcorp.com (Doug) wrote:
:>Hypothetically, would the following scenario also be true?
:>The British brutally attack the USA. The USA reponds, (coins the term
:>"Brit" during the war), and eventually crushes them. Would the term
:>"Brit" now be a racial slur?
On Fri, 25 Oct 1996, Alan Bossir wrote:
:Didn't your hypathetical scenario actually take place a
:couple hundred years ago?
What kind of wood were those old Redcoat-Strats made out of?
Language conventions are unpredictable. My history is not
precise but, Australia was founded as a prison colony and all
those Brits deemed too corrupt to live in Britain were outcast to
Australia wearing shirts that read "POHM" which stood for
Prisoner of Her Majesty. Years later when Australia was no
longer controlled by Britain, the Aussies coined the phrase
POHMIES to refer to Brits who were, of course, still under
British rule and therefore "prisoners" of her majesty.
Neither the Brits, nor the Aussies make any decent guitars.
Jap-Strats are good quality guitars made of basswood.
Mex-Strats are lesser quality made of poplar.
US-Strats are made of alder.
abbreviations used:
Brit=British citizen
Aussie=Australian citizen
Redcoat=British serviceman during the Revolutionary War
POHMIE=Brit
Jap=made in Japan
Mex=made in Mexico
US=made in the United States of America.
Slip Mahoney
adam wrote:
>
> I canít believe what a bunch of sniveling winy PC baiting little pussys
> exist out here on the usenet. Should I also be upset if a someone calls
> a Jewish person a Jew?
You think it's the same thing, huh? What a maggot-brain.
>
> Since we think in the form of language, those who try to control it are
> really attempting to control your mind. (ì É George Carlin ) And to
> these potential mindfuckers out there I give you a hearty FUCK
Keep your racial slurs inside your slimy litle rodent mind and you won't
have any problems. You'll get to keep the tooth you have left. I see
from these posts that the submorons who use the bogus terms "PC" and
"politically correct" are staunch defenders of racism and bigotry. Big
surprise, they probably listen to Rush Lardball. To them and to you, I
return your hearty FUCK YOU.
Steve
Slip Mahoney, are you still in junior high school?
Slip Mahoney
Bob wrote:
>
> In article <326E5E...@bowery.com>,
> Slip Mahoney <mah...@bowery.com> wrote:
> Ridiculous. Your "abbreviation" is a slur, regardless of your
> intentions. There is no way to make the word "nigger" innocent and
> harmless, and there is no way to make the word "Jap" innocent and
> harmless. It is a slur that most certainly predates WWII, and even if it
> didn't, so what? It's still a slur. What's the matter, is it just too
> much work to quit using it?
>
> I think you have really shown what a moron you are, Slip. Nigger is
>not an abreviation, it is a derogatory term out and out by itself.
So is "Jap," moron.
> I have read your countless replies to this thread,
Regardless of who read'em to you, it's painfully obvious you didn't
understand'em. Cretin.
> and it's obvious you have a problem accepting who you are.
>(I'm assuming your Japanese)
Figures you'd be the kind of pinhead who'd make assumptions without a
shred of information. I'm human, which is why I fight racism. You want
to play guessing games, go right ahead. Imbecile.
>If you were truly proud of who and what you are, you wouldn't care what >anyone called you.
Next time you see Kareem Abdul-Jabbar, go up and call him a racial slur.
Ten to one he twists your little pin head off and shits down your neck.
Then it would become obvious to you that you can be proud of what you
are and still not take any crap from racist vermin. Dolt.
>But only if you are truly a better person than them.
Any human being is better than a racist.
>Think about it Einstein.
I've thought about it. You're an imbecile.
> (Oh, by the way, Einstein was one of us)
Einstein was *not* an imbecile, which gives the lie to your horseshit,
you lying little sack of rot.
Andre' Mielke
Allright guys.. this is getting way out of hand. From now on :
Fender guitars made in Japan will be know as either
1) Jap. Strats (note the . implying an abbreviation -> not a slur)
2) Sushicaster (maybe a stereotype, but not a slur)
Similarly
Mex. Strat / Tacocaster
Nick :)
Sean Hardie
g...@probe.netcommcorp.com> <54rdle$7...@aeon.ecte.uswc.uswest.com>
<32743B...@iaccess.com.au>: Distribution:
In my gang of idiots, we just say:
Americaster, Japanocaster, Koreacaster, Mexicaster.
So go nuts.
Cheers.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Sean Hardie
Carleton University
Central European and Russian-Area Studies/Legal Studies
Email address: sha...@chat.carleton.ca
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Abe
In article <3275C9...@bowery.com>,
Slip Mahoney <mah...@bowery.com> wrote:
>Steve wrote:
>>
>> Slip Mahoney, are you still in junior high school?
>
We all though so.
Abe
Hey Slip, has it ever occured to you that maybe the reason you have so much
trouble in life has nothing to do with your race, but your lack of respect for
other people, your poor choice of language, or your hostile attitude.
Thank God the internet has saved you countless punches in the mouth.
Slip Mahoney
> Steve wrote:
> >
> > Slip Mahoney, are you still in junior high school?
>
newsgroup of their own. Say hi to the FBI while you're there.
Slip Mahoney
Steve wrote:
>
> Slip Mahoney, are you still in junior high school?
Are you still on your knees at the local glory hole?
Steve Kellett
Andre' Mielke wrote:
>
> Allright guys.. this is getting way out of hand. From now on :
> Fender guitars made in Japan will be know as either
> 1) Jap. Strats (note the . implying an abbreviation -> not a slur)
> 2) Sushicaster (maybe a stereotype, but not a slur)
>
> Similarly
> Mex. Strat / Tacocaster
>
Oh no! A Stratocentric Telephobe!
Run for the hills, run for the hills!
--
+++++++++++++++++++++Warning Boring Sig Alert++++++++++++++++++++++++++
+ Any opinions expressed above are my own and not necessarily those +
+ of my employer. +
+ +
+ Home Page at http://www.geocities.com/sunsetstrip/6507 +
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
James P. H. Fuller
It's instructive to gather it all together in one specimen jar.
On Mon, 21 Oct 1996, Sat, 26 Oct 1996, and Tue, 29 Oct 1996, Slip
Mahoney <mah...@bowery.com> emptied his colostomy bag into this
newsgroup as follows:
> you're a waste of protoplasm. Think how many perfectly good garden
> slugs could have been made from the likes of you.
> hang it up and check yourself into the vegetable farm.
> What an incredible dumbfuck! You take the cake.
> you benighted shit-for-brains!
> you weasely little protozoan
> moron
> Cretin.
> pinhead
> Imbecile.
> you lying little sack of rot.
> What a maggot-brain.
> Are you still on your knees at the local glory hole?
Slip, you made a big mistake when you stopped taking your medicine.
You've got more contempt and hate in you than any six Klansmen do. It
doesn't matter *who* you hate -- if you hate *anybody* you're a member
of the hate crowd and you might as well go get measured for your white
sheet and hood right now. See you (and your kind) at the torchlight
parade.
- JF
Slip Mahoney
When racists and bigots and right-wing fuckwads go looking for enemies,
they FIND'em. Surprised? Come as a shock to you? I ain't no candy-assed
Christian. I'm under no obligation to love my enemies or turn the other
cheek. I've been fighting racist scum since the Freedom Marches. I've
BEEN face to face with the Klan, and I have the scars to prove it. I'm
still here, and I'm not going away. What you and the other defenders of
bigotry can't seem to understand is that you CHOOSE to be a racist.
You're not born that way. You spew hate, you're gonna get it back, ace.
Won't do any good to cry about it. I'm in for the long haul. How long do
YOU want to keep this up?
Dave Shapiro
James P. H. Fuller (j...@ash.ecology.uga.edu) wrote:
: It's instructive to gather it all together in one specimen jar.
[snip]
Unfortunately, James has a point. Slip, I appreciated your viewpoints on this
subject (and it *does* relate to this newsgroup; just not guitars in
particular), and in general I agreed with what you said. But your name-calling
really detracted from your message. Ending an articulate phrase with the
word "pinhead" doesn't hammer home your point. Rather, it serves to
invalidate it. I guess I agree with Slip's opinions, just not his delivery.
Dave
dsh...@argo.ecte.uswc.uswest.com
ricm
> When racists and bigots and right-wing fuckwads go looking for enemies,
> they FIND'em. Surprised? Come as a shock to you? I ain't no candy-assed
> Christian. I'm under no obligation to love my enemies or turn the other
> cheek. I've been fighting racist scum since the Freedom Marches. I've
> BEEN face to face with the Klan, and I have the scars to prove it. I'm
> still here, and I'm not going away. What you and the other defenders of
> bigotry can't seem to understand is that you CHOOSE to be a racist.
> You're not born that way. You spew hate, you're gonna get it back, ace.
> Won't do any good to cry about it. I'm in for the long haul. How long do
> YOU want to keep this up?
This place would be a kinder and gentler place if there was more of this
in the world.
Right ON, Slip!