Getting That "Big" Guitar Tone
Starman
a sound that will make my guitar sound like its double tracked (like on
record) or more specially big as in similar to Dave Gilmour's sound but I
don't want the repeated sound where it sounds like U2 or similar if you
understand my logic. Anyway am looking for suggestions and any tips in
dialling in this sound I'm after.
Lewis
Arlowe
Squier
<yawn> use the standard 'club 101' guitar sound.
Reverb (or delay), Flanger, Chorus. (put in any order or cascade how you like)
add in boost for solos. there ya go.
Starman
"Arlowe" <bare....@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:mn.34317da1e...@gmail.com...
Starman
"Lewis" <le...@lewisray.com> wrote in message
news:f5394ce2-46a9-4653...@e37g2000yqn.googlegroups.com...
VampX
Dont use a DD-3 for starters. It's not really designed for that "big"
sound. Digital delays are very complex and often you may need to use an
analogue in tandem with a digital for that rounded "full" effect.
--
VeronicaX
-------------------------------
Dr. Zontar
Delay can actually make a guitar sound smaller - or at least more
distant. Doubling a track works in the studio because two different
sounds are usually panned right and left in the mix. Maybe you could
try a stereo chorus pedal and 2 amps? Also, be aware that certain
frequencies stand out more than others (especially upper mids). A good
EQ can make you sound bigger.
- Rich
Greendistantstar
I'm not so sure that anything outside of an amp with sufficient headroom gives you a 'big' sound.
GDS
"Let's roll!"
Geetar Dave
wrote:
>
> I'm not so sure that anything outside of an amp with sufficient headroom gives you a 'big' sound.
>
I'm with GDS on this.
Adding effects doesn't make your sound bigger. Adding echo to a small
sound just makes a small sound have an echo.
-dave-----:::
www.myspace.com/geetardave
Wrong_Note_Rod
Gilmours effects rack is huge, I'm sure you know this. One delay pedal isnt
going to get you that. Are you opposed to double-tracking, or are you
trying to get a Gilmour-type sound live?
TheChris
7c476c...@u7g2000yqm.googlegroups.com:
I don't know if I agree here... Reverb is designed to make things sound
like they're in a bigger place. Are you saying, if went through some
'large room' reverb, you don't think a guitar would sound bigger?
My trick is - definitely two guitar amps - far apart (one on each side
of the drums) and one amp has a miniscule delay - 40ms??? Sounds
HUGE!!!
--
Christopher Bell
http://www.myspace.com/bellboudreaux
______________________________
| |
| Any Amp! |
| ________________________ |
| |!!o Q Q Q� Q Q Q :: | |
|==============================|
Linux user #497844
dugjustdug
> My trick is - definitely two guitar amps - far apart (one on each side
> of the drums) and one amp has a miniscule delay - 40ms??? Sounds
> HUGE!!!
I'm with Chris on this. For one of my recordings, we set up 2 amps
using a DD-6 on the Stereo setting and placed the single mic between
the two amps' sonic paths. Panned the signal 60/40 in the mix and it
was unlike anything we had done previously - way out front, but, not
annoying to the ears.
Ray
I have noticed that I get a 'bigger' sounds when I back the effects
off a little, a touch of reverb and a real short delay with lots of
dry signal is good place to start.
Wrong_Note_Rod
I've never used two amps live, but for recording, I guess everybody has
tried this at one time or another. Two amps on two tracks, one with some
delay... or even one amp with two mics, one set wet and the other dry.
Still not as "fat" to my ears as plain old double-tracking.
Geetar Dave
>
> I don't know if I agree here... Reverb is designed to make things sound
> like they're in a bigger place. Are you saying, if went through some
> 'large room' reverb, you don't think a guitar would sound bigger?
Correct.
I think it will just sound like whatever sound (big/small/etc), plus
reverb.
To my way of thinking, reverb sets something further back into a
perceived sonic space. A mouse squeaking in a gymnasium doesn't sound
like a bigger mouse.
Maybe the space sounds big, but that's not how I think of achieving a
big sound. Maybe we are talking about different things.
-dave-----:::
www.myspace.com/geetardave
Wrong_Note_Rod
> Another route to a thicker sound is to use just the slightest hint
> from an octave multiplier. Too much will sound like crap, but just a
> little wisp goes a long way.
>
> http://www.bossus.com/gear/productdetails.php?ProductId=146
Can you use that with full chords, or only single notes?
TheChris
$.9z0mma7nuc08$.d...@40tude.net:
If you listen to early Van Halen, that was his trick - and it was a
pretty impressive trick. The guitar was mixed fairly hard left or
right.....but.... there was a slight delayed mix going to the other
channel... IMO, it's excessive to record with two amps. Digital delays
can do it all - if you know what you're doing.. I'm not saying I do,
but, I've heard it done.
TheChris
4846fc...@j19g2000yqk.googlegroups.com:
Okay - I get your point... then it just comes from good old layering..
and EQ maybe?
TheChris
> Chords work just fine if you follow my recommendation to use only a
> slight amount of the effect. It tracks very well. If you use too much
> of the effect, chords will get muddy.
>
>
With some new ones, you can do full chords... My OC-2 doesn't, but the
OC-3 does. I have a Behringer Ultra something that does full chords,
AND, let's you delay the octave... That, is huge!!
You're right about moderation though
jimmy
Oh I think you do know what you're doing mister. I've listened to
your stuff. BTW, I finally picked up a SD-1 with a melonhead mod.
I'm having quite a lot of fun with that & the blues Jr. That was
great advice, thanks.
tony
Wrong_Note_Rod
TheChris
news:r9q9k55t30oker9ur...@4ax.com:
Well... thank you... BTW, I have been using my Blues Jr a lot again for
gigs, what a great little amp!
Rufus
...dis chick is fully Fooged...she git's it!
--
- Rufus
TheChris
news:1fybgcq9o6hc7.s5fv4qsdtgkq$.d...@40tude.net:
> On Wed, 6 Jan 2010 19:39:17 +0000 (UTC), TheChris wrote:
>
>> sa...@dog.com wrote in news:mom9k5ppg4lfk0pcpu41ppqukrin843dsv@
Should have clarified.. It's not a pedal, it's one of their rack units..
Great sounds in it for guitars...
http://www.zzounds.com/item--BEHDSP1424P
TheChris
But, I'd buy this one in a heartbeat! :)
mercutio
>On Wed, 6 Jan 2010 09:53:18 -0800 (PST), Geetar Dave <e...@one.net>
>wrote:
>
>>On Jan 6, 10:04ÔøΩam, TheChris <cab...@nospam.hotmail.com> wrote:
>>
>>>
>>> I don't know if I agree here... Reverb is designed to make things sound
>>> like they're in a bigger place. ÔøΩAre you saying, if went through some
>>> 'large room' reverb, you don't think a guitar would sound bigger?
>>
>>Correct.
>>I think it will just sound like whatever sound (big/small/etc), plus
>>reverb.
>>
>>To my way of thinking, reverb sets something further back into a
>>perceived sonic space. A mouse squeaking in a gymnasium doesn't sound
>>like a bigger mouse.
>>
>>Maybe the space sounds big, but that's not how I think of achieving a
>>big sound. Maybe we are talking about different things.
>>
>>-dave-----:::
>>www.myspace.com/geetardave
>
>Another route to a thicker sound is to use just the slightest hint
>from an octave multiplier. Too much will sound like crap, but just a
>little wisp goes a long way.
>
>http://www.bossus.com/gear/productdetails.php?ProductId=146
\
An old Lesile West trick
Jim
rct
> If you listen to early Van Halen, that was his trick - and it was a
> pretty impressive trick.
Not his trick.
> The guitar was mixed fairly hard left or right.....but.... there was a slight delayed mix going to the other
> channel...
Right. Double the track, slip one back in time a few, may be 6 or 7
"frames", which was the smallest measure of tape. People had been
making monster sounds doing that long before Edward graced us all with
his studliness.
> IMO, it's excessive to record with two amps.
eh. Excessive? Yer in a building or room designed for or at least
used for recording. I've got 4 or 5 amps in there, how excessive is
it to use two? Holy crap I don't bother without at least two mics on
at least two cabs.
rct
Les Cargill
> On Jan 5, 11:13 pm, "Starman" <iknowbutidontk...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>> I have a Boss DD-3 and am trying to dial up a decent "big" sound. I'm after
>> a sound that will make my guitar sound like its double tracked (like on
>> record) or more specially big as in similar to Dave Gilmour's sound but I
>> don't want the repeated sound where it sounds like U2 or similar if you
>> understand my logic. Anyway am looking for suggestions and any tips in
>> dialling in this sound I'm after.
>
> Delay can actually make a guitar sound smaller - or at least more
> distant.
Depends on the amount ( time length ) of delay. If you manage
to make an allpass filter outta it that sucks out key frequencies,
the resulting cancellation can sound empty.
Running delay < 50 msec or so is under the Haas Limit, and
is perceived by the ear as "stereo" when split left/right.
http://nyquist.dream-media.net/2009/10/the-haas-effect/
> Doubling a track works in the studio because two different
> sounds are usually panned right and left in the mix. Maybe you could
> try a stereo chorus pedal and 2 amps? Also, be aware that certain
> frequencies stand out more than others (especially upper mids). A good
> EQ can make you sound bigger.
>
> - Rich
--
Les Cargill
Les Cargill
It's really, really hard to say exactly. Leaving space helps more
than anything.
--
Les Cargill
Greendistantstar
'Big' isn't a scientific term, more a subjective notion. 'Big' to me is how much of the air in a
room/venue gets filled with sound, which to my mind, is headroom. This is the reason why some here
have suggested that a couple of small amps in stereo gives a 'big' sound as more air will move with
such a set-up.
GDS
"Let's roll!"
Arlowe
> Wrong_Note_Rod <wrongn...@yahoo.com> wrote in
> news:1fybgcq9o6hc7.s5fv4qsdtgkq$.d...@40tude.net:
>
>> http://tinyurl.com/ybaa7qp
>
> But, I'd buy this one in a heartbeat! :)
And you would be disapointed.
I tried one and it doesn't track well. When it did track, it sounds so
damn artifical...it isn't good.
but then, I only gave it a couple of minutes...if someone spent a bit
more time with it, they might be able to get something usable out of
it.
The Boss PS-2 is so much better.
Boss use to make a 2 channel harmonizer that was kinda cool. You see
them on fleabay now & again...they go for stupid money.
Rufus
> Geetar Dave <e...@one.net> wrote in news:577caacf-05db-4e3d-a1c2-
> 7c476c...@u7g2000yqm.googlegroups.com:
>
>> On Jan 6, 8:21 am, Greendistantstar <Greendistants...@iinet.net.au>
>> wrote:
>>
>>> I'm not so sure that anything outside of an amp with sufficient
> headroom
>> gives you a 'big' sound.
>>
>> I'm with GDS on this.
>> Adding effects doesn't make your sound bigger. Adding echo to a small
>> sound just makes a small sound have an echo.
>>
>> -dave-----:::
>> www.myspace.com/geetardave
>>
>>
>
> I don't know if I agree here... Reverb is designed to make things sound
> like they're in a bigger place. Are you saying, if went through some
> 'large room' reverb, you don't think a guitar would sound bigger?
>
> My trick is - definitely two guitar amps - far apart (one on each side
> of the drums) and one amp has a miniscule delay - 40ms??? Sounds
> HUGE!!!
>
>
20 ms works might fine for me, with two 4x12 cabs sitting just a couple
feet apart. I'm thinking that the farther apart you put them, the less
delay you might want to use...to a point.
Yeah - HUGE at any volume.
--
- Rufus
Rufus
I run an OC-3 in the loop of the clean side amp in my stereo
rig...between that, and that 20 ms delay between the tow out of my TTE
it can sound like three guitars playing at one time if I hack the right
sort of riff.
And sometimes I add a little Deja Vibe to the OC-3...again, just on that
one side. Adds a bit more space, I keep it very subtle and slow.
I also have a DD-6 on that side and can stomp in a little reverse delay
on that one side if I like - or use that as an echo-echo effect without
disturbing the TTE split - which I can also stomp off and just get
straight ahead blast.
--
- Rufus
Starman
playing live. I only have one amp.
"Wrong_Note_Rod" <wrongn...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:pkva5k5p4e3s$.tjuwhgvbqd91.dlg@40tude.net...
> On Wed, 06 Jan 2010 04:13:02 GMT, Starman wrote:
>
>> I have a Boss DD-3 and am trying to dial up a decent "big" sound. I'm
>> after
>> a sound that will make my guitar sound like its double tracked (like on
>> record) or more specially big as in similar to Dave Gilmour's sound but I
>> don't want the repeated sound where it sounds like U2 or similar if you
>> understand my logic. Anyway am looking for suggestions and any tips in
>> dialling in this sound I'm after.
>
>
Oskar
> of the drums) and one amp has a miniscule delay - 40ms??? Sounds
> HUGE!!!
I agree - two amps are great! Have one slightly cleaner than the other
one and/or slightly different in sound. Even a crappy practice amp as
second amp will do the trick, as you don't need it very prominent,
it's just needs to add to the main amp/sound. You can also run some
effects on this second amp and turn down the direct signal, which
gives great clarity to the first/main amp sound.
O
VampX
> I'm with GDS on this.
> Adding effects doesn't make your sound bigger. Adding echo to a small
> sound just makes a small sound have an echo.
Big sounds come from big mids and decent amps and speakers. Small
amounts of effects but used tastefully if that's your thing. Personally
I like the colour a well placed effect can bring but its no wall of
sound. Its just a different colour or texture to me. Makes it
interesting than having the exact same sound for every song.
I get bored very easily with the same thing. Sometimes I want to
emphasise certain phrases.
--
VeronicaX
-------------------------------
TheChris
@gmail.com:
The PS-2 isn't intelligent though.. Is it? I thought the PS-5 was the
one where you can set the key and if you want major, or minor, or any
interval.
I have another Zoom Pedal - the 509 - Has EVERYTHING in it for harmony
and modulation effects... I'm going to revisit that..
TheChris
fc7494...@m26g2000yqb.googlegroups.com:
These days, everybody I know barely uses recording studios for
recording... It's all home-based. So, in that respect, it's excessive.
I see your angle, but, I don't drag that much hardware to a recording
studio :)
Wrong_Note_Rod
> Well, I'm all for double tracking in the studio, but my query was about
> playing live. I only have one amp.
>
thats gonna be tough, as you can see from all the responses.
in the first place, "big" is a subjective term, and lots of people define
it in different ways. A way to achieve "big" in recording, might not
translate to "big" in a venue, playing with a live band... effects used to
create recorded "big" might just push you farther down into the mix with a
band. And with no soundman to keep pushing you up...
An expensive harmonizer, Eventide, or whatever the f those things were
called, I think VanHalen was using one for a long time, something like
that?
I will say this, a longtime friend of mine bought the expensive Line6
Bogner combo thing, and bragged about it having the best sound he'd ever
heard. So I went to play with his band, and I dragged out a simple Peavey
Classic 30 with a dirt box. I got there and he had his sound drowned in so
many effects, that as soon as I turned up, loud and clear, the difference
was shocking. You couldnt really hear what he was playing unless you were
standing right in front of his amp.
rct
> > eh. Excessive? Yer in a building or room designed for or at least
> > used for recording. I've got 4 or 5 amps in there, how excessive is
> > it to use two? Holy crap I don't bother without at least two mics on
> > at least two cabs.
> These days, everybody I know barely uses recording studios for
> recording... It's all home-based. So, in that respect, it's excessive.
>
> I see your angle, but, I don't drag that much hardware to a recording
> studio :)
I drag myself down 11 steps to the "studio". Haven't moved an amp,
except into the house, since...summer 2003.
rct
Wrong_Note_Rod
Heh. The last thing I recorded, I didnt even use an amp. Zoom GFX-8 patch,
straight onto track, left panned, then did the aux send trick to clone it
to a Bus, panned right, delayed. Sort of the instant vanhalen sound trick.
now if i could justplay like that guy i'd be...... wait, thats right, stuck
in my basement like the 5trillion other guys who can play like him. sort
of.
rct
that's usually on and in the mix too.
I shoulda pointed out that all the mics and digital thingies all go to
a 16 channel mixer, and from there out to the recorder. So I can have
all the stuff ready to go all the time, no setting up mics and stuff,
just mix it up at the mixer and send it.
rct
Wrong_Note_Rod
thas how mine is too. Everything runs into a Mackie VLZ 16channel. I
learned some of this from the great buddha of T0n3 in sommerville, the
ability to sort of sit down with a geetar in front of the computer, throw a
couple of switches, and instantly start recording. I still think I get a
"better" sound by turning one of my amps up loud in the soundproofed room
and mic'ing it, but that takes a lot longer to set up and get going...
headphones, remote computer controlling, etc etc etc etc
Arlowe
> Arlowe <bare....@gmail.com> wrote in news:mn.3ae47da1133304d2.90583
> @gmail.com:
>
>> After serious thinking TheChris wrote :
>>> Wrong_Note_Rod <wrongn...@yahoo.com> wrote in
>>> news:1fybgcq9o6hc7.s5fv4qsdtgkq$.d...@40tude.net:
>>>
>>>> http://tinyurl.com/ybaa7qp
>>>
>>> But, I'd buy this one in a heartbeat! :)
>>
>> And you would be disapointed.
>> I tried one and it doesn't track well. When it did track, it sounds so
>> damn artifical...it isn't good.
>> but then, I only gave it a couple of minutes...if someone spent a bit
>> more time with it, they might be able to get something usable out of
>> it.
>>
>> The Boss PS-2 is so much better.
>>
>> Boss use to make a 2 channel harmonizer that was kinda cool. You see
>> them on fleabay now & again...they go for stupid money.
>>
>>
>>
>
> The PS-2 isn't intelligent though.. Is it? I thought the PS-5 was the
> one where you can set the key and if you want major, or minor, or any
> interval.
>
> I have another Zoom Pedal - the 509 - Has EVERYTHING in it for harmony
> and modulation effects... I'm going to revisit that..
My apologies...I ment the PS-5.
Les Cargill
I have been using that VST amp sim plugin you posted the link to a lot
lately. It's darned good.
--
Les Cargill
Geetar Dave
> Well, I'm all for double tracking in the studio, but my query was about
> playing live. I only have one amp.
>
OK. Well then let's talk about your amp. What are you using? Maybe I
missed that part, and I apologize if I did.
My AC30 seems to do it for me, and before that, my '68 Twin Reverb
did. Maybe it's an open-back 2x12 thing, or the fact that it's a clean
type of amp with a pedal? I dunno.
-dave-----:::
www.myspace.com/geetardave
dugjustdug
> My AC30 seems to do it for me, and before that, my '68 Twin Reverb
> did. Maybe it's an open-back 2x12 thing, or the fact that it's a clean
> type of amp with a pedal? I dunno.
>
> -dave-----:::www.myspace.com/geetardave
Tru dat. Some amps simply do a better job of receiving pedals.
Wrong Note Rod also mentioned that over-processing results in a sound
that will not cut. The other geetarist in my band tends to do that
and he can't figure out why he needs to be turned waaaay up in the mix
to be heard.
Just my opinion, but, to me the short answer is (1) sufficient head
room in your amp, and, (2) less is more when it comes to FX.
Geetar Dave
>
> Tru dat. Some amps simply do a better job of receiving pedals.
>
> Wrong Note Rod also mentioned that over-processing results in a sound
> that will not cut. The other geetarist in my band tends to do that
> and he can't figure out why he needs to be turned waaaay up in the mix
> to be heard.
>
> Just my opinion, but, to me the short answer is (1) sufficient head
> room in your amp, and, (2) less is more when it comes to FX.
Agreed. I also think those digital amps (Line 6, etc) don't cut
through either.
-dave-----:::
www.myspace.com/geetardave
Rufus
Third!
--
- Rufus
Les Cargill
They really don't. Other modellers do.
---
Les Cargill
Starman
"Geetar Dave" <e...@one.net> wrote in message
news:8c2063d7-2dbb-406f...@l30g2000yqb.googlegroups.com...
sa...@dog.com
wrote:
>On Jan 7, 8:05�pm, dugjustdug <prestigerea...@yvn.com> wrote:
Sorry, but that's just plain silly, Dave.
If you want to "cut through" with any setup, just increase the
mid-highs.
Things such as echo and reverb will drop you back in the mix, but if
you have punch in the mid-highs, it will still be clearly heard, even
if it doesn't sound as if it is out in front. Enhance the mid-highs
and reduce the echo and reverb and you WILL be out in front of the
mix.
Stephen Cowell
<sa...@dog.com> wrote
>>Agreed. I also think those digital amps (Line 6, etc) don't cut
>>through either.
>>
>
> Sorry, but that's just plain silly, Dave.
>
> If you want to "cut through" with any setup, just increase the
> mid-highs.
If the signal is compressed, as we all agree podii do
easily, then boosting *any* EQ is not going to help.
Dynamic range is not bought back so easily... once
lost.
The only band I saw that was able to make Line6
stuff work had *all* guitars on Line6 amps... with
electronic drums, of course. Mixing the two is
a nightmare for a FOH slider-pusher.
__
Steve
.
all IMO
Geetar Dave
>
> Sorry, but that's just plain silly, Dave.
>
> If you want to "cut through" with any setup, just increase the
> mid-highs.
>
> Things such as echo and reverb will drop you back in the mix, but if
> you have punch in the mid-highs, it will still be clearly heard, even
> if it doesn't sound as if it is out in front. Enhance the mid-highs
> and reduce the echo and reverb and you WILL be out in front of the
> mix.
Um. No. Adding more treble is NOT the answer. If your tone isn't
working, and you add treble, it just gets harsh.
-dave-----:::
www.myspace.com/geetardave
Geetar Dave
> I'm using a Laney GH50 thru a 4 X 12 cab. And Fender Strat.
>
OK. It's fair to say you have sufficient headroom!
Do you use your neck pickup?
Also, do you have any clips of your playing we could hear? That might
help bridge the gap from where you are, to where you want to be.
-dave-----:::
www.myspace.com/geetardave
sa...@dog.com
wrote:
>On Jan 8, 6:07�am, sa...@dog.com wrote:
The word treble did not appear anywhere in my post.
Wrong_Note_Rod
it is... i'd use that if i didnt have so much other stuff.
but, one less plug-in actively running, is a good thing for me....
Wrong_Note_Rod
> On Jan 7, 4:41�pm, Geetar Dave <e...@one.net> wrote:
>> My AC30 seems to do it for me, and before that, my '68 Twin Reverb
>> did. Maybe it's an open-back 2x12 thing, or the fact that it's a clean
>> type of amp with a pedal? I dunno.
>>
>> -dave-----:::www.myspace.com/geetardave
>
> Tru dat. Some amps simply do a better job of receiving pedals.
>
> Wrong Note Rod also mentioned that over-processing results in a sound
> that will not cut. The other geetarist in my band tends to do that
> and he can't figure out why he needs to be turned waaaay up in the mix
> to be heard.
but see, thats the whole issue. Gilmour buries his sound in tons of
effects, but, has the soundguy to turn him up in the mix so he's at the
forefront. A lot of effects CAN make a guitar sound "big"... which I think
is what the original poster wants. He didnt say he was in a band or played
with other people, i just threw that out there.
Wrong_Note_Rod
I've really only heard a few guys use the Line6 combos at a gig. Mostly
they used so many effects on every patch that they didnt cut thru. One guy
ended up ditching the amp right after the gig I attended, telling me, it
sounds so great at home, but cant cut thru a band.
Another guy I heard with one awhile ago, sounded fantastic. But they had a
soundman who was payed by the band. Big difference.
Wrong_Note_Rod
he didnt specifically say "treble", he said mid-highs, altho, that might
mean treble, depending on how you define things.
In my opinion, boosting the hell out of the mids, will make it easier to
cut thru and be heard. It also might make it sound like shit.