2x12 vs 2 1x12's

[Squier]

Yeah - ok - I know I am not having auditory hallucinations.
In fact, my bandmates could definitely hear a difference when
the cabs went up to full band volume.

Late rehearsal tonight -- so I brought over a 2x12 and
then also had two separate 1x12 cabs.

The 2x12 is vertical with the speakers on top of each other
(it's not one of the diagonal 2x12's you might see in tweed cabs.. etc)
The 1x12's I just stacked on top of each other.

The cabs are the same depth and construction (from the same cab maker).
All the cabs are 3/4" birch ply with birch ply baffle boards and covered
in heavy duty black tolex. They are all semi-open back (small oval opening
in the back of the cabs). And all the cabs have the same 12" speakers.
And the cab(s) are being played through the same amp head using the
same settings and playing through the same guitar.

Obviously the 2 stacked 1x12's have the speakers isolated from each
other as the separate cabs ensure that. The physical distance between
each speaker (stacked vertically) is farther away from each other than
in the 2x12 cab where the speakers are in close proximity vertically aligned.
The edges of the speakers in the 2x12 are about 2" (5cm) away from each other.

At lower volumes, plugging into either the 2x12 or the stacked 1x12's
sounds about the same. With your eyes closed your ears would not know
the difference. Even walking around the room both setups had about the
same tone and 'spread' of sound.

Now this is where it gets a lot different --- as we cranked up to full
band volume the stacked 1x12's actually started to not only sound better
but seemed to put out a better 'spread' and fuller sound than the 2x12 cab.
The 2x12 cab started to sound more middy and nasaly compared to the stacked 1x12's
which continued to have a fuller sound to them (both cabs when you back away
sound like a single big speaker).

So my question is -- does the 2x12 cab somehow cancel out some frequencies
because the speakers are so close that sound waves are knocking into each other
as they leave the cones ? It seems the separate 1x12's stacked definitely did
not get as nasal sounding and remained much fuller across the room. (large
rehearsal room/studio).

When we mic up and record -- there seems to be no difference between mic'ing
up one of the speakers in the 2x12 or a speaker in one of the 1x12's (same speakers)
but the 'live' sound coming out of them into the room is a lot different.

So I am thinking that maybe 2 separate 1x12's sound a lot better than a 2x12
(at least a non-diagonal vertical 2x12... or typical horizontal 2x12 which
is what the vertical is -- just flipped on its side).

There's something going on. I guess if I wanted more honking mids that would
be a good thing and I'd go with the 2x12 -- but now that I really paid attention
and brought both cab rigs to check out -- the stacked 1x12's were far better
at retaining an open sound and spread without going middy/nasal when pushed.

anyone else notice this phenomena ?

[Les Cargill]

Does "nasal" mean "comb filter-ey"? Like quack on a Strat? What if
you're off to the side of the cabs?

> When we mic up and record -- there seems to be no difference between mic'ing
> up one of the speakers in the 2x12 or a speaker in one of the 1x12's (same speakers)
> but the 'live' sound coming out of them into the room is a lot different.
>
> So I am thinking that maybe 2 separate 1x12's sound a lot better than a 2x12
> (at least a non-diagonal vertical 2x12... or typical horizontal 2x12 which
> is what the vertical is -- just flipped on its side).
>
> There's something going on. I guess if I wanted more honking mids that would
> be a good thing and I'd go with the 2x12 -- but now that I really paid attention
> and brought both cab rigs to check out -- the stacked 1x12's were far better
> at retaining an open sound and spread without going middy/nasal when pushed.
>
> anyone else notice this phenomena ?
>

--
Les Cargill

[esha...@yahoo.com]

Are both (all ports) the same size ? 2x12 1 port,, 1x12 1 port (x2 cabs).. perhaps the 2x12 doesn't have a big enough port? ( for the particular room ).

PS - Sorry this gig is starting late,,, our guitar player is bringing in 8 1x12' cabs : ' ) - ed

[LULU]

===============================================

IMHO most of the differences that you're hearing between the 1x12 and 2x12 cabinets have to do with frequency cancellation and cabinet porting. The 2x12 cabinet will cancel some frequencies and accent other frequencies simply because you are working two speakers in the same box. The semi-open back lets the sound produced interact with the space behind the cabinet and also the "room" adding to the equation. If you set up the 1x12 cabinets off-axis in relation to each other and the surrounding surfaces, the differences between using a single 2x12 and two 1x12's becomes more pronounced.

Crank it and spank it,
Lulu : )

===============================================

[Flasherly]

On Wed, 31 Jul 2013 03:11:47 -0400, Squier <squ...@strats.net> wrote:

>So my question is -- does the 2x12 cab somehow cancel out some frequencies
>because the speakers are so close that sound waves are knocking into each other
>as they leave the cones ? It seems the separate 1x12's stacked definitely did
>not get as nasal sounding and remained much fuller across the room. (large
>rehearsal room/studio).

See the illustration fig.116 to the M112 and 115 series. Knocking is
refered to for interference (feedback);- maybe, with the extra
speaker, there's "less" knocking... as the dispersion pattern is going
to be over some wider complexity. Looks like at simplest stage setup,
smaller venue and lower volumes, that speaker(s) or amps extension is
going to be your main monitor.

http://www.ibo-proaudio.com/technical_notes.htm

I've taken to moving my 4x12 up off the floor a couple feet. Bass
seems more defined, for one. Might also be nice for cutting in half
for either/or ganged dually, mixed and stereo effects stuff. Sealed.
Dunno what ported would mean to that particular cab design.

[esha...@yahoo.com]

Maybe if you stood on your head 4x12 would sound better ? oR graft your ears to your feet... : ' ) - ed

[Flasherly]

On Wed, 31 Jul 2013 14:31:50 -0700 (PDT), esha...@yahoo.com wrote:

>
>Maybe if you stood on your head 4x12 would sound better ? oR graft your ears to your feet... : ' ) - ed

Try a 4x12 through a bass amp (Fender Bassman 2x6L6 circuity design).
There isn't anything "scooped" about flat-out ballsy. Think playing
bass riffs all day off those two back strings. Then come up off the
floor. Yeah, for the floor and room acoustics, once the cab's up a
couple feet it's a real groove thing, when I bond sitting at
ear-height. Pure(r) presence & tonal balances. I especially love my
classical through that, THE Backbeat Bass that almost drives me wild,
except for cat-gut strings that'll screech and howl in feedback to
bass only in the corresponding middle-range strings (highs, B & E,
come thru alright & stay reasonably crisp, D's a little tricky, but
that G can be one real badass). Anybody for drop-tuning?

[jtees4]

On Wed, 31 Jul 2013 03:11:47 -0400, Squier <squ...@strats.net> wrote:

I think it's as simple as separate cabinets keep each speaker
isolated, and the louder you go is always going to make nuances more
noticeable.
*************
Some of my music:
http://www.soundclick.com/bands/default.cfm?bandID=789610

[esha...@yahoo.com]

I use stereo - a Hiwatt with a 2x15 & a 2x12 -- : ' ) - the 2x12 is on a stand..
other channel Marshall 4x12 ... sit or stand a few feet away... I love having some bottom.. cheers.. e

[Flasherly]

On Thu, 1 Aug 2013 06:03:52 -0700 (PDT), esha...@yahoo.com wrote:

>
>I use stereo - a Hiwatt with a 2x15 & a 2x12 -- : ' ) - the 2x12 is on a stand..
>other channel Marshall 4x12 ... sit or stand a few feet away... I love having some bottom.. cheers.. e

That's one full cab, effectively, tonally and for sure with bass
potential. Let's see...if I combined my combo amps into theoretical
cabs...I see one 4x12, and there's another 4x10, plus a spare 1x10,
along with the 4x12 mentioned I regularly use in Greenbacks. 900-watts
in actual amp output power combined over and for a x1.75 full-cab form
factor. No 15s, no horns, no joist mounts for ratcheting them into
the ceiling, and no guitars with the pickups wired for stereo or
discrete outputs. (Actually, that's just the half of what more or
less could as easily be carted off. Would you believe I still have my
first valved amp, I mean really believe? I traded a diamond ring
thrown at me for it.)

[esha...@yahoo.com]

Well it is a HiWatt400 bass amp & a lil 50 watt JMPMKII Marshall - so you got me : ' ) on power & speakers...
I was a bass player longer that I've been playing guitar - Ahh also have my Moog Tarus MkI bass pedals - now that's sweet pant flappin BASS tone .. Ed

[Flasherly]

On Thu, 1 Aug 2013 10:35:34 -0700 (PDT), esha...@yahoo.com wrote:

>On Thursday, August 1, 2013 8:56:43 AM UTC-5, Flasherly wrote:
>> On Thu, 1 Aug 2013 06:03:52 -0700 (PDT), esha...@yahoo.com wrote:
>>
>>
>>
>> >
>>
>> >I use stereo - a Hiwatt with a 2x15 & a 2x12 -- : ' ) - the 2x12 is on a stand..
>>
>> >other channel Marshall 4x12 ... sit or stand a few feet away... I love having some bottom.. cheers.. e
>>
>>
>>
>> That's one full cab, effectively, tonally and for sure with bass
>>
>> potential. Let's see...if I combined my combo amps into theoretical
>>
>> cabs...I see one 4x12, and there's another 4x10, plus a spare 1x10,
>>
>> along with the 4x12 mentioned I regularly use in Greenbacks. 900-watts
>>
>> in actual amp output power combined over and for a x1.75 full-cab form
>>
>> factor. No 15s, no horns, no joist mounts for ratcheting them into
>>
>> the ceiling, and no guitars with the pickups wired for stereo or
>>
>> discrete outputs. (Actually, that's just the half of what more or
>>
>> less could as easily be carted off. Would you believe I still have my
>>
>> first valved amp, I mean really believe? I traded a diamond ring
>>
>> thrown at me for it.)
>
>Well it is a HiWatt400 bass amp
& a lil 50 watt JMPMKII Marshall - so you got me : ' ) on power &

speakers...I was a bass player longer that I've been playing guitar -

Ahh also have my Moog Tarus MkI bass pedals - now that's sweet pant
flappin BASS tone .. Ed

-
Bass player, eh...way cool. Have to be. Lot less going on, or a lot
more to concentrate on with everything else going on to hold
fundamentally what's based compositionally together. I've taken to
picking up basses. Never did that before but now find them
intriguing. Five, six string basses, that a long time fantasy thing
going over Fender's baritone guitar, ever since I first saw one and
got knocked out. Good thing to learn - adds polish and ability. Maybe
for a reverse sense of getting around also to drummers, generally,
switching to guitar - their sense of rhythm being notable, some say,
dimensional, faceted, if not more accomplished.

[JNugent]

The phenomenon is well-known and is the reason why some units
(principally PA and bass speakers) are often stacked vertically and
others (mainly guitar speakers) are usually placed side-by-side
horizontally or nearly so.

All to do with the way that the sound is dispersed.

The 4x12 gives both effects at once.
>

[lucky...@hotmail.com]

There are at least two variables. Even if it is the same wood, same dimensions, same porting...

First, in the 2x12, you have the back phase of the sound wave interacting with each other.

Secondly, you have the difference between the center of the cones. Try moving the two cabs further apart to see what happens. Even putting a yellow pages or something a few inches thick between the cabs.

In the hi-fi world, the verticle MTM speakers have been a popular choice. The placement and spacing of the speakers affects angles of dispersion. The verticle arrangement can shorten the verticle angle of dispersion, concentrating sound more in the horizontal axis.

Google "D'Appolito" and "speakers" or "MTM" to read some of the physics behind it.

[%]

<lucky...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:a214d8b2-7ff0-4f0d...@googlegroups.com...

that's stupid