Groove depth on PRS nut?
Frank D. Greco
replacement frets... polished, rounded edges were great. The nut was replaced
also, but it seems the grooves made by the repair dude are deeper than they
should be. The action seemed lower than I was used to which makes it a bit
difficult to bend strings towards the head or bend strings in general; I'm
typically sliding over the adjacent strings. Needless to say, its very
difficult playing slide.
Presumbably he didn't change the height of the bridge, so I'm guessing its the
depth of the string grooves in the PRS nut. They seem very deep.
Is there any info out there indicating the "proper" depth of these grooves on a
PRS McCarty?
Thanks
rct
other words, about half the string should be sitting above the nut
flat surface. I know, I didn't provide the millimeters or the GPS
coordinates for each slot, but that's pretty much what all the slide
rule nerdery works out to. It isn't rocket science at all.
You more than likely can't refret a guitar without changing the
bridge, so I would presume exactly the opposite of your presumption.
rct
Dr. Zontar
> Same depth as the nut slots on any guitar, half the string size. In
> other words, about half the string should be sitting above the nut
> flat surface. I know, I didn't provide the millimeters or the GPS
> coordinates for each slot, but that's pretty much what all the slide
> rule nerdery works out to. It isn't rocket science at all.
I agree - half the width of the string. If a nut is too high, a
luthier will usually file the bottom, rather than deepen the slots.
> You more than likely can't refret a guitar without changing the
> bridge, so I would presume exactly the opposite of your presumption.
Gotta agree there too. If the action is low, and there's no fret buzz
when you play open strings, then the nut isn't too low compared to the
frets. Try raising the bridge a little.
- Rich
Cyberserf
Nut action is measured by fretting the string on the second fret and
measuring the bottom of the string to the top of the first fret. You
want a very slight space (.001-.002). Once the proper nut action has
been set the top of the nut should be brought down so that the unwound
strings (e, B and sometimes G) are completely buried (fully in the
slot) and the wound strings (sometimes G, D, A and E) are half buried
in the slot...the slots are cut with a rounded bottom ("U" shaped) and
a width equal to the string gauge...in other words, the are cut with
the appropriate nut slot file. The shape of the nut and the depth of
the slot should conform to the neck radius (which is why the half
pencil trick is so popular, as it marks the maximum depth according to
the neck radius). The wound strings are typically left a little higher
(more action) than unwound for the simple reason that they have a
greater vibration arc.
Best of Luck, CS
Flas...@live.com
FOOBAR.c00m> wrote:
I did my first refretting & nut for a $200 Ventura CA made guitar not
long ago, so I'm here to tell you... :) Scratch that half-string
acoustic stuff, although I did set mine up that way (it's relatively
easy to bend lighter strings out of *my* groves. I also set mine with
suitably groovy file from a Harbor Freight's $1.00 jeweler file set
('cept'n for I'm not a huge Fender Bender, and it plain don't
matter). Defacto, they sink them babies down, especially unwounds --
exactly how far, I'd imagine would be as much an artesian luthier
thing. I recall, however, reading (somewhat dated from a luthier's
site) - at the second fret, finger/capo fretted, string over the first
first should come off the nut with a slight clearance over the first
fretwire. By slight I do believe he meant slight: 'for a slightly
discernable -click- when lightly finger tapping the wire above the
first fret'. Anyway, that's how I did mine after removing the
original nut and forming an over-sized bone piece for action, based on
the original's heights. Problem. No prior established understanding
appears to have been present at the time you presented him with the
job. Were I a luthier, which I'm not, I'd fault myself. Anyway, say
you're the silent type who dropped his $3000 guitar on me. I'd have to
first presume said guitar be yours;- I'd, secondly, very closely
inspect it for (PRS) tolerances, to **include the nut**. And that's
the way I'd expect to hand it back to you -- except better. If
couldn't make a customer ecstatic, or at least happy, I just might be
in the wrong end of the biz. Take it back to him and tell him why you
don't like the nut.
Cyberserf
Sorry...Glad I read it again...you should fret the string at the third
fret (not the second)....and measure the space under the first
fret...Doh!
-C[Mea Culpa]S
board...@techie.com
FOOBAR.c00m> wrote:
My general rule for nut slot depth is just a touch higher off the
first fret than fretting at the first and eyeballing the distance from
the string to the second fret. They don't need to be any higher than
that unless you have a real heavy picking hand.
Is your neck adjusted correctly? That makes a difference.....
board...@techie.com
> I agree - half the width of the string. If a nut is too high, a
> luthier will usually file the bottom, rather than deepen the slots.
>
from the bottom side than it is to recut the slots. And what if
there's only a couple strings that are too high? Filing the bottom
will make the rest too low. Takes just a few mins to recut nut
slots.....
jimmy
<cybr...@sympatico.ca> wrote:
>On Jan 15, 2:04 am, Frank D. Greco <fgr...@REMOVECrossroadsTechNOSPAM-
>FOOBAR.c00m> wrote:
>> I recently sent my PRS McCarty to get a new fret job. Came back with excellent
>> replacement frets... polished, rounded edges were great. The nut was replaced
>> also, but it seems the grooves made by the repair dude are deeper than they
>> should be. The action seemed lower than I was used to which makes it a bit
>> difficult to bend strings towards the head or bend strings in general; I'm
>> typically sliding over the adjacent strings. Needless to say, its very
>> difficult playing slide.
>>
>> Presumbably he didn't change the height of the bridge, so I'm guessing its the
>> depth of the string grooves in the PRS nut. They seem very deep.
>>
>> Is there any info out there indicating the "proper" depth of these grooves on a
>> PRS McCarty?
>>
>> Thanks
>
>Nut action is measured by fretting the string on the second fret and
>measuring the bottom of the string to the top of the first fret. You
>want a very slight space (.001-.002). Once the proper nut action has
>been set the top of the nut should be brought down so that the unwound
>strings (e, B and sometimes G) are completely buried (fully in the
>slot) and the wound strings (sometimes G, D, A and E) are half buried
>in the slot
I've read this numerous times but still don't understand why. Is it
just for appearance? What difference does it make if the wound
strings are completely buried? The top half of the strings are not
touching anything.
thanks,
tony
White Spirit
> Nut action is measured by fretting the string on the second fret and
> measuring the bottom of the string to the top of the first fret. You
> want a very slight space (.001-.002).
Which units are you measuring in?
Adams661
Half the string width is the standard but if you're gonna be doing
allot of string stretching then the little ones will likely jump there
slots at that depth. I adjust the nut as I go. Some off of the
top ,some off the bottom until I get it as close to where it should be
as possible. Farting with the truss rod is the exact wrong thing to do
though. You want the neck as straight as you can get it. I'm not going
to waste time by going into the fret drop off thing. Been there and
done that. It falls on deaf ears. If the strings dont buzz on an open
strum then they're not to low at the nut. Action is set at the bridge.
Deepening nut slots has little affect on overall string heigth up and
down the neck. Cyberserf gave the correct way to cut a nut but I dont
use hard and fast rules when cutting one myself. I do whatever it
takes to get it to his end results.
You probably should have told the guitar mechanic that you played
slide. A slightly higher action works best for that type of playing. I
think your slots should be just deep enough for the strings not to pop
out of them. The shape of the slot bottoms are more critical than the
depth of the slots themselves
Cyberserf
Inches...(sorry again, it should be fretted at the third, not the
second...my bad). Graphically stated: the width of a kitty hair should
do fine. Practically, look at the gab between the top of the first
fret and the bottom of the string (with the string fretted on the
3rd), if you can clearly see the gap without much of an angle change,
it is likely too large. In effect, you want a gap (so that the string
can vibrate freely), but you want the minimum (and the vibrating arc
is at a minimum next to the "fretting" force (fulcrum 1) and maximum
at the half way point between it and the secondary fulcrum (the string
saddle)...so really small is the order of the day). IMHO, anything
higher than required by physics simply makes it that much tougher to
fret the "cowboy" frets without adding anything to the tone/sustain/
sound. Personally, I test by tapping behind the string (1st fret) as
it is fretted (3rd fret)...if you hear a sustaining "ting" (not quite
a note, just a metallic sustaining harmonic)...it is low enough...if I
don't hear a "ting", it is too low (muted) and, if you hear a "hammer
on" note, you are likely too high.
IMHO, you should never take the nut down from the seat...there are nut
seating files designed to make the neck bottoms conform to the bottom
of the nut, but you don't want to go there...cutting into your
fingerboard trying to "true" the two opposing surfaces can result in
massive intonation issues (and there is a back angle in the nut seat
that cannot be ignored). In addition, some nut seats are radiused
(those nuts embedded in your Start or Tele (real or copy)), and taking
them down flat will ruin the mechanical coupling between the nut and
the neck.
Added apologies for unintentional convolution,
Cheers, CS
Patrick Keenan
"rct" <Ron.Th...@faa.gov> wrote in message
news:1c6b2d2d-2fde-4eca...@w24g2000prd.googlegroups.com...
> Same depth as the nut slots on any guitar, half the string size. In
> other words, about half the string should be sitting above the nut
> flat surface.
This is the "classical guitar" standard, but on an electric guitar, it often
leads to problems when bending: it's very easy for the string to pop out of
the slot.
In reality, most of the string should be in the nut to prevent this. If
the nut is cut properly, the string being "too deep" in the nut is really
only an aesthetic issue.
The real question here is not the depth of the string in the nut, it's the
height of the string at the first fret. And the "correct" height varies
from player to player and is also based on the use of that guitar - one
intended for slide will need more height to prevent clatter and accidental
fretting.
At the moment, there are two ways to quickly address the problem if the
strings are uniformly too low. The first is to simply loosen the trussrod
a bit- this often has the effect of raising the nut, because the neck bow is
an arc, and the nut is at the end of it. The second is to pop the nut off
and shim it slightly.
HTH
-pk
Sac Dave
"Frank D. Greco" <fgr...@REMOVECrossroadsTechNOSPAM-FOOBAR.c00m> wrote in
message news:ojntm4p5q5fe57299...@4ax.com...
On my PRS the strings are all below the to of the nut that's how it came. As
already mentioned with the strings half way in the nut 90% chance during a
hard slide they will pop out of the nut. Now on the first guitars I built I
would use the 3rd fret method. Now I use feeler gauges measure the fret
height then add .020 . With the feeler gauge on the fret board then against
the nut you file the slots when you hit the gauge your done no chance of
going to deep. That .020 is not set in stone so you can do some adjustment .
AJ
dia...@sbcglobal.net says...
headstocks. Ric's have deep slots too and a very shallow string over nut
angle.
Regarding height, I once had a Strat with a buzz that drove me crazy
trying to find it. I finally took it in and the guy said it was buzzing
on a fret between the note being fretted and the nut because the nut was
too low. I forget what he called it, but raising the nut fixed it.
White Spirit
> Regarding height, I once had a Strat with a buzz that drove me crazy
> trying to find it. I finally took it in and the guy said it was buzzing
> on a fret between the note being fretted and the nut because the nut was
> too low. I forget what he called it, but raising the nut fixed it.
On one guitar, the trem springs reverberate loudly with certain notes.
It doesn't come through the amplifier but it was a bit disconcerting at
first. I'm used to it now and would probably miss it if I stopped it.
jimmy
wrote:
>
>"rct" <Ron.Th...@faa.gov> wrote in message
>news:1c6b2d2d-2fde-4eca...@w24g2000prd.googlegroups.com...
>> Same depth as the nut slots on any guitar, half the string size. In
>> other words, about half the string should be sitting above the nut
>> flat surface.
>
>
>This is the "classical guitar" standard, but on an electric guitar, it often
>leads to problems when bending: it's very easy for the string to pop out of
>the slot.
>
>In reality, most of the string should be in the nut to prevent this. If
>the nut is cut properly, the string being "too deep" in the nut is really
>only an aesthetic issue.
Thanks PK. That's what I thought but wasn't sure. Seems to me the
string slot could be 1/2 an inch & it wouldn't matter.
Adams661
FOOBAR.c00m> wrote:
Oh but it does matter. The string doesnt slide through the nut the way
it should if the slot depth is too deep
jimmy
If the slot is the correct width & the string doesn't pinch it
shouldn't be a problem, should it?
Cyberserf
Yes and No. Obviously, if the string is not properly buried, it can
pop out when you bend it. But burying it too deeply can sometimes have
a noticeable effect.
Ideally, the nut slot is ramped toward the back (the headstock), and
thus, the fulcrum that describes the take-off point of the string
should be right at the front of the slot (at the edge of the
fingerboard). The slot itself ought to have a "U" shaped bottom with
an overall width pretty much equal to the width of the intended
string. The bottom should be smooth and even If everything is perfect
then you are right, there shouldn't be much effect from the depth.
However, if any of these things are not in order (e.g., the fulcrum is
not at the front of the slot, the width of the slot is either too
tight (binding) or too loose (travelling), or if the wrong shape
(binding) or the slot seat is uneven), then you might find that the
mechanical vibration of the string is being robbed by the badly cut
nut as the string zings against the sidewalls of the slot. The depth
may cause this to worsen, since there is more "wall" for the vibrating
string to run into.
There are other issues as well, such as ease of changing the string
(i.e. pulling a string out of an overly deep slot is more likely to
chip or damage a nut then "lifting" a string out of a properly shaped
nut)...and of course, there are cosmetic issues as well and it isn't
right to ignore them. It really isn't that hard to file the nut down
so the string sit properly in the slots. It goes hand in hand with
giving it a polish and a shine. Sure you can cut corners...but why
bother.
HTH, CS
jimmy
Excellent, thanks CS. Among other stuff, I didn't know about the
fulcrum at the fromt of the nut part. Far as I can tell, the guy who
"martinized" my shenandoah d35 did a perfect job on both the nut &
saddle.
tgif,
tony