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fastest guitarist
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Antti
Feb 8, 2000, 3:00:00 AM2/8/00
to
I'm not personally in fast playing, but I read from some old Guinness
Book of Records that Rick Raven is "world's fastest guitar player". He
had played about 5600 notes in minute! That's over 90 notes in second! I
just can't understand how this is possible. BTW does anyone know who is
Rick Raven?
Book of Records that Rick Raven is "world's fastest guitar player". He
had played about 5600 notes in minute! That's over 90 notes in second! I
just can't understand how this is possible. BTW does anyone know who is
Rick Raven?
Kjetil Raknerud
Feb 8, 2000, 3:00:00 AM2/8/00
to
Antti <Antti.H...@helsinki.fi> skrev i
meldingsnyheter:38A034EA...@helsinki.fi...
The Ravens before The Doors were founded, but I don't think Rick and The
Ravens has something to do with Rick Raven since the guitarplayer in that
band was Ray Manzarek's brother.
Kjetil
CDriver333
Feb 8, 2000, 3:00:00 AM2/8/00
to
The "fastest guitar player" I've ever heard is a guy by the name of Dennis
Agajanian. Not only is he ultra-fast, but he does it all on acoustic guitar!
Excellent player, very versatile...
Agajanian. Not only is he ultra-fast, but he does it all on acoustic guitar!
Excellent player, very versatile...
Mike Sandler
Feb 8, 2000, 3:00:00 AM2/8/00
to
CDriver333 <cdriv...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:20000208112240...@ng-fd1.aol.com...
Is he a Christian? I spent a lot of time in the pew in my wild youth, and
name sounds familiar.
Mike Sandler
William Justic
Feb 8, 2000, 3:00:00 AM2/8/00
to
I'm completely taking a guess here:
Me thinks he was strumming a 12 string about 8 times
per second. Not impossible. I haven't tried it though.
*Technically* that would make over 90 notes per second.
Me thinks he was strumming a 12 string about 8 times
per second. Not impossible. I haven't tried it though.
*Technically* that would make over 90 notes per second.
Just guessing,
Bill
Gunther Binoth
Feb 8, 2000, 3:00:00 AM2/8/00
to
Hi!
a few year ago I was certainly impressed of players like Malmsteen, Jason
Becker and these guys.
However, a good player IMHO makes you feel the pain and the blues - the
velocity is me anyway ...
My favorites are Eddi van Halen (the best rhythm guitar), Gary Moore and
Malmsteen.
What do you think?
cu,
Gunther
K.C.
Feb 8, 2000, 3:00:00 AM2/8/00
to
Vinnie Vincent.
K.C.
"Gunther Binoth" <GBi...@online.de> wrote in message
news:87q2mi$cmd$1...@news.online.de...
KaptenKman
Feb 9, 2000, 3:00:00 AM2/9/00
to
I just heard the John Petrucci's solo track off of the new live Dream Theater
and my mouth was on the floor. I never realized he was that fast. Not only
that, he was also mesmerizing.
and my mouth was on the floor. I never realized he was that fast. Not only
that, he was also mesmerizing.
Kevin
Barb (aol IM'r JobeeCat)
Feb 9, 2000, 3:00:00 AM2/9/00
to
I dont know who Rick Raven is, but check out Shrapnel records online and
listen to Todd Duane.
listen to Todd Duane.
Gadzooks he's fast!
Barb
Barb (aol IM'r JobeeCat)
Feb 9, 2000, 3:00:00 AM2/9/00
to
Vinnie Moore
Yngwie Malmsteen
Tony MacAlpine
Yngwie Malmsteen
Tony MacAlpine
Barb (aol IM'r JobeeCat)
Feb 9, 2000, 3:00:00 AM2/9/00
to
got a link to it?
RocKee
Feb 9, 2000, 3:00:00 AM2/9/00
to
On what album does he show some cool speedlicks?
Mike Sandler <smsa...@mindspring.com> schreef in berichtnieuws
87ppp7$him$1...@nntp4.atl.mindspring.net...
Smitty
Feb 9, 2000, 3:00:00 AM2/9/00
to
Johnny Winter?
K.C. wrote in message ...
LJ
Feb 10, 2000, 3:00:00 AM2/10/00
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There's this guy, who plays so fast, that the notes run together until
the oscillations in pitch produced by the melody reach such a frequency that
the melodies become pure tones of brightly colored light dancing like
butterflies above the strings.
I thought he was fast, until I saw this other guy who played so fast,
you never heard it, the only way you could really appreciate it was to
record it, and play it back again slowed down 200 times.
But still, there was this guy who was so fast, he didn't need to make a
video, he could play an entire 132 measure song, and you could get every
lick on one snapshot, if the film was real fast.
Otherwise, it was just a pink blur where his hands were.
There was a guy even faster, but as his playing approached lightspeed,
the notes suddenly became infinitely massive and crushed him and the guitar
into an inseperable flattened pulp
the oscillations in pitch produced by the melody reach such a frequency that
the melodies become pure tones of brightly colored light dancing like
butterflies above the strings.
I thought he was fast, until I saw this other guy who played so fast,
you never heard it, the only way you could really appreciate it was to
record it, and play it back again slowed down 200 times.
But still, there was this guy who was so fast, he didn't need to make a
video, he could play an entire 132 measure song, and you could get every
lick on one snapshot, if the film was real fast.
Otherwise, it was just a pink blur where his hands were.
There was a guy even faster, but as his playing approached lightspeed,
the notes suddenly became infinitely massive and crushed him and the guitar
into an inseperable flattened pulp
Smitty <smi...@pivot.net> wrote in message
news:38a23...@news.cybertours.com...
E Leesa E
Feb 10, 2000, 3:00:00 AM2/10/00
to
Fastest I've seen with my own eyes was Alvin Lee (from Ten Years
After). Was on same label as Danny Gatton for a while and that
cat could do some amazing stuff with a guitar. E L E.
After). Was on same label as Danny Gatton for a while and that
cat could do some amazing stuff with a guitar. E L E.
* Sent from RemarQ http://www.remarq.com The Internet's Discussion Network *
The fastest and easiest way to search and participate in Usenet - Free!
Robert Cagey
Feb 10, 2000, 3:00:00 AM2/10/00
to
Shawn Lane.
R. Pennington
Feb 10, 2000, 3:00:00 AM2/10/00
to
Anyone see/hear Monte Montgomery on the Austin City Limits recently? I
won't say he's the "fastest" ever, but he's the most breathtakingly
"fast" guitarist I've heard in a long time. Impeccably clean, too (his
playing, that is). He plays a steel string accoustic and sings, along
with a base player and drummer. They do blues/rock/jazz/pop sort of
stuff.
won't say he's the "fastest" ever, but he's the most breathtakingly
"fast" guitarist I've heard in a long time. Impeccably clean, too (his
playing, that is). He plays a steel string accoustic and sings, along
with a base player and drummer. They do blues/rock/jazz/pop sort of
stuff.
I appreciate a wide range of guitarists, even ones whose style I'm not
too crazy about. Eddie Van Halen, for instance. I was never a big fan,
but his virtuosity is undeniable. My personal preference is for the
basic LOUD, straight up style, ala SRV. But, if you want to hear
something different (and "fast" by anyone's standards), I'd highly
recommend giving Monte Montgomery a try. I'll probably try and find his
(one and only) album.
Rod
LJ wrote: >>There was a guy even faster, but as his playing approached
lightspeed,
> the notes suddenly became infinitely massive and crushed him and the guitar
> into an inseperable flattened pulp
...at which time his "solo" was projected backwards in time 23.7 billion
years, thus triggering the "Big Bang"...
Bob Savage
Feb 11, 2000, 3:00:00 AM2/11/00
to
Mike Sandler <smsa...@mindspring.com> wrote in message
news:87ppp7$him$1...@nntp4.atl.mindspring.net...
> Is he a Christian? I spent a lot of time in the pew in my wild youth, and
> name sounds familiar.
news:87ppp7$him$1...@nntp4.atl.mindspring.net...
> Is he a Christian? I spent a lot of time in the pew in my wild youth, and
> name sounds familiar.
Yes, that's the same Dennis you remember.
Bob
Lou Pecora
Feb 11, 2000, 3:00:00 AM2/11/00
to
In article <Ovvo4.1185$R55....@news.uswest.net>, "LJ"
<rome...@excite.com> wrote:
<rome...@excite.com> wrote:
> There's this guy, who plays so fast, that the notes run together until
> the oscillations in pitch produced by the melody reach such a frequency that
> the melodies become pure tones of brightly colored light dancing like
> butterflies above the strings.
> I thought he was fast, until I saw this other guy who played so fast,
> you never heard it, the only way you could really appreciate it was to
> record it, and play it back again slowed down 200 times.
> But still, there was this guy who was so fast, he didn't need to make a
> video, he could play an entire 132 measure song, and you could get every
> lick on one snapshot, if the film was real fast.
> Otherwise, it was just a pink blur where his hands were.
> There was a guy even faster, but as his playing approached lightspeed,
> the notes suddenly became infinitely massive and crushed him and the guitar
> into an inseperable flattened pulp
Damn! I'm gonna start pickin' a LOT slower.
Lou Pecora, email: pec...@anvil.nrl.navy.mil
Naval Research Laboratory, Washington, D.C. 20375-5000, U.S.A.
== My comments are my own and do not reflect the views of the U.S. Navy. ==
== No Spamming or solicitations -- both are illegal at this site ==
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Bradley Carr
Feb 14, 2000, 3:00:00 AM2/14/00
to
Fastest?
Malmsteen
Impelitteri
Vai
Satriani
the guy from Dream Theatre/LTE
Becker
Friedman
James Murphy
Kareem Badr
Feb 14, 2000, 3:00:00 AM2/14/00
to
monte montgomery played in austin this weeked. i've only heard one song
on the radio and it reminded me of Rhoads a lot. I liked it.
unfortunately, i couldn't find anyone to go to the show with me, so i
didn't go. guess that was a stupid move.
on the radio and it reminded me of Rhoads a lot. I liked it.
unfortunately, i couldn't find anyone to go to the show with me, so i
didn't go. guess that was a stupid move.
--
"do you know how far this has gone?
just how damaged have i become?
when i think i can overcome
it runs even deeper "
nin, "even deeper"
Millie James
Feb 14, 2000, 3:00:00 AM2/14/00
to
Kareem Badr wrote:
>
> ...
> unfortunately, i couldn't find anyone to go to the show with me, so i
> didn't go. guess that was a stupid move.
>
>
> ...
> unfortunately, i couldn't find anyone to go to the show with me, so i
> didn't go. guess that was a stupid move.
>
Yeah ;)
always
go to the show
_ _ _ _ _
~ Millie ma...@eagle.ptialaska.net
Ace
Feb 17, 2000, 3:00:00 AM2/17/00
to
On Tue, 8 Feb 2000 19:46:58 -0500, "K.C." <kch...@videotron.ca> wrote:
>Vinnie Vincent.
You mean he's a guitarist?
She thought she knew me
but she didn't know
that I was set
on wanting her to go
vicrob...@gmail.com
Apr 13, 2013, 6:08:09 AM4/13/13
to
yup its true he lives in blackpool
clubze...@gmail.com
Aug 6, 2014, 6:36:48 PM8/6/14
to
Rick raven I know personally.
He lived in Stockport Manchester.
I was with him when he broke the world record.
He was just an average unknown kid.
Not famous but did have a band called Rick raven and the touch.
I myself was the comedy act on his gigs
He lived in Stockport Manchester.
I was with him when he broke the world record.
He was just an average unknown kid.
Not famous but did have a band called Rick raven and the touch.
I myself was the comedy act on his gigs
Claude V. Lucas
Aug 6, 2014, 6:49:22 PM8/6/14
to
In article <27ffd7fb-f818-4794...@googlegroups.com>,
Everybody knows that the fastest guitarist ever is Skwisgaar Skwigelf.
Too long in the Wasteland
Aug 6, 2014, 7:10:58 PM8/6/14
to
On Tuesday, February 8, 2000 2:00:00 AM UTC-6, Antti wrote:
> I'm not personally in fast playing, but I read from some old Guinness
> Book of Records that Rick Raven is "world's fastest guitar player". He
> had played about 5600 notes in minute! That's over 90 notes in second! I
> just can't understand how this is possible. BTW does anyone know who is
> Rick Raven?
NPS .. notes per second .. mean nothing. Soulless noise. Buzz saw.
> I'm not personally in fast playing, but I read from some old Guinness
> Book of Records that Rick Raven is "world's fastest guitar player". He
> had played about 5600 notes in minute! That's over 90 notes in second! I
> just can't understand how this is possible. BTW does anyone know who is
> Rick Raven?
nm...@wt.net
Aug 6, 2014, 7:14:04 PM8/6/14
to
and everyone knows he can't drive 55. :|
With a Toy Corolla and a Ford truck with a 300 six, I know I'll never be
the fastest geetar buoy in the west. :( sniffle..
But I make up for it in the artificial world. :)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rhOW5eHh2rU&feature=youtu.be&noredirect=1
FlipDoubt
Aug 6, 2014, 7:50:48 PM8/6/14
to
Flip
stratrat
Aug 6, 2014, 8:54:01 PM8/6/14
to
Lord Valve
Aug 6, 2014, 9:36:18 PM8/6/14
to
Too long in the Wasteland wrote:
You ain't never had any,you won't ever get any, and you
wouldn't recognize it if Ray Charles shot it up your ass
with a bazooka. <shrug>
Fuck you.
notbob
Aug 6, 2014, 10:44:32 PM8/6/14
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I sometimes wish I could do a smokin' hot high-speed run on my axe,
but it's a well thought out lick or run, one that perfectly fits the
song, that I'm more interested in learning. ;)
nb
%
Aug 6, 2014, 11:02:03 PM8/6/14
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Flasherly
Aug 6, 2014, 11:18:07 PM8/6/14
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On Wed, 06 Aug 2014 20:54:01 -0400, stratrat <nomail@_INVALID_.gov>
wrote:
>
>yessssssssssss
100 notes per second.
"Machine Gun" -Jimi Hendrix
-Spooky aka/Puff The Magic Dragon
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Douglas_AC-47_Spooky
wrote:
>
>yessssssssssss
100 notes per second.
"Machine Gun" -Jimi Hendrix
-Spooky aka/Puff The Magic Dragon
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Douglas_AC-47_Spooky
Flasherly
Aug 6, 2014, 11:37:03 PM8/6/14
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On 06 Aug 2014 22:49:22 GMT, cla...@sonic.net (Claude V. Lucas)
wrote:
>Everybody knows that the fastest guitarist ever is Skwisgaar Skwigelf.
Really?
Sasan Razgahi, from Tehran, Iran -
4000/60
66 notes - per second
http://www.metalsucks.net/2013/10/30/investigation-fastest-guitar-player-world/
-
I find Susan hard, too incredulous, to believe. (I"m
firewalled/filtered - not sure about the video.)
Fastest music I've personally listened to would be either ethnic
Spanish flamenco or Indian ragas. Although 5-10 beats per second
should be plenty for future update purposes, more than adequate for
fast food for musical digestion.
wrote:
>Everybody knows that the fastest guitarist ever is Skwisgaar Skwigelf.
Sasan Razgahi, from Tehran, Iran -
4000/60
66 notes - per second
http://www.metalsucks.net/2013/10/30/investigation-fastest-guitar-player-world/
-
I find Susan hard, too incredulous, to believe. (I"m
firewalled/filtered - not sure about the video.)
Fastest music I've personally listened to would be either ethnic
Spanish flamenco or Indian ragas. Although 5-10 beats per second
should be plenty for future update purposes, more than adequate for
fast food for musical digestion.
jtees4
Aug 7, 2014, 2:48:45 PM8/7/14
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On Wed, 6 Aug 2014 15:36:48 -0700 (PDT), clubze...@gmail.com
wrote:
I thought it wa Kim Jon il or his son, but definitely one of them.
After all they hold most of the world records.
*************
Some of my music:
http://www.soundclick.com/bands/default.cfm?bandID=789610
wrote:
After all they hold most of the world records.
*************
Some of my music:
http://www.soundclick.com/bands/default.cfm?bandID=789610
The_Chris
Aug 7, 2014, 5:44:49 PM8/7/14
to
Too long in the Wasteland <loonk...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> NPS .. notes per second .. mean nothing. Soulless noise. Buzz saw.
So, you don't think he can slow down if he wanted to? I find it odd
>
> NPS .. notes per second .. mean nothing. Soulless noise. Buzz saw.
when people mock talent and chops, and then fawn over slowhands like
Clapton/Beck/Vaughn.... It would take a 15 year old 3 hours to copy
their best material...
And I'll search for the Youtube videos! :)
The_Chris
Aug 7, 2014, 5:46:29 PM8/7/14
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all do....I'll be the first to admit I don't have the talent/patience.
FlipDoubt
Aug 7, 2014, 5:55:42 PM8/7/14
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creative to play. Jeff Beck is a creative artist,
not a robotic fingering machine. If you want
more speed in what your listening to, you
can speed the video up. There is no control
setting to increase the quality of the guitarist.
Flip
Bastardo'
Aug 7, 2014, 6:17:49 PM8/7/14
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On 8/7/2014 5:46 PM, The_Chris wrote:
Just about every time I practice I give it a shot.
Sometimes I have a good run and it's then that I get a fleeting glimpse
of what it takes.
Someday I'll see it clearly then be able to rip it up.(I tell myself ;)
Bastardo'♪♫
--
The biggest irony in life is that no one gets out of it alive
> notbob <not...@nothome.com> wrote:
>> I sometimes wish I could do a smokin' hot high-speed run on my axe,
>> but it's a well thought out lick or run, one that perfectly fits the
>> song, that I'm more interested in learning. ;)
>>
>> nb
>
> Trust me.... you still want to do a smokin' hot high-speed run.... We
> all do....I'll be the first to admit I don't have the talent/patience.
>
I'll second that!
>> I sometimes wish I could do a smokin' hot high-speed run on my axe,
>> but it's a well thought out lick or run, one that perfectly fits the
>> song, that I'm more interested in learning. ;)
>>
>> nb
>
> Trust me.... you still want to do a smokin' hot high-speed run.... We
> all do....I'll be the first to admit I don't have the talent/patience.
>
Just about every time I practice I give it a shot.
Sometimes I have a good run and it's then that I get a fleeting glimpse
of what it takes.
Someday I'll see it clearly then be able to rip it up.(I tell myself ;)
Bastardo'♪♫
--
The biggest irony in life is that no one gets out of it alive
jtees4
Aug 7, 2014, 6:46:08 PM8/7/14
to
problems. That's kind of why I fell in love with Leslie West way back
in the day, he was the only one I could usually copy note for note.
Very few others. So sure, I'd love to be able to do some seriously
fast runs. Ain't gonna happen.
Flasherly
Aug 7, 2014, 7:22:05 PM8/7/14
to
On Thu, 07 Aug 2014 16:55:42 -0500, FlipDoubt <FD...@loco.weed> wrote:
>There is no control
>setting to increase the quality of the guitarist.
Some guitarists. Classical guitar, qualities are judged in a
>There is no control
>setting to increase the quality of the guitarist.
standardized sense both to levels of player competence and attainment
reflective of peer accreditation. Or so I hear tell. (Greedy little
pig-eyed, egocentric, pedigreed degree holders, no doubt, never having
had bad, bad habits, impediments wilfully to overcome, or scraped
bottom to gainsay what purer artistic vantage is to truth among
artistic accounts encompassing realistic conditioning.)
-
But, doesn't everybody turn up the TeeVee colours until it looks just
like a cartoon?
Wild Beast: [In] the style of les Fauves, a loose group of early
twentieth-century Modern artists whose works emphasized painterly
qualities and strong color over the representational or realistic
values retained by Impressionism;...the movement as such lasted only a
few years, 1904–1908, and had three exhibitions.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fauvism
stratrat
Aug 8, 2014, 9:02:26 PM8/8/14
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two are not interchangeable ..nor mutually exclusive
%
Aug 8, 2014, 9:58:11 PM8/8/14
to
and that is an audio orgasm
stratrat
Aug 8, 2014, 10:49:42 PM8/8/14
to
> , and that is an audio orgasm
long straps on stage I never thought of my guitar as my dick either :-)
%
Aug 9, 2014, 12:16:29 AM8/9/14
to
no need to get sassy with me i know how to play a guitar ,
more importantly i know who's good and who's not ,
billy be damned with their bpm
The_Chris
Aug 9, 2014, 10:55:05 AM8/9/14
to
bother to listen to their quality.
The_Chris
Aug 9, 2014, 11:00:49 AM8/9/14
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Sometimes I feel I'm too old (50) and that I have a lifetime of bad
habits and listening to 'players with soul'.... I'm making it a point of
working on things like sweep picking - and alternate (with a metronome)
- stuff I should have done at 18.......
Maybe in a year or two....
The_Chris
Aug 9, 2014, 11:04:06 AM8/9/14
to
tones and one-chord passages (Rot Tomago (sp). I never really heard him
solo over passages where he had to follow a theme.
Also, he did a lot of chromatic stuff - which - honestly - is the easy
way out...
Point me to a great solo by him where he's playing over an interesting
backing and not just droning for 8 minutes to bass and drums... I'd like
to change my opinion..
I'm assuming you were referring to Zappa..
%
Aug 9, 2014, 11:35:46 AM8/9/14
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stratrat
Aug 9, 2014, 2:05:24 PM8/9/14
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total of maybe 1 piece: Pachelbel's canon in D. Too bad he burned
everything! Most other classics remind me of gymnastics when I listen to
them, music was entering a new era of discovery and too many were just
strutting their prowess screamin 'look ma', up-and-down the scales at
lightning speed, no hands even!". That's how I see it, luckily there
was music then and today that's what music should be, the necessarily
evocative language of the soul, and there was then and also is today
what is just fucking noise.
Les Cargill
Aug 9, 2014, 2:38:17 PM8/9/14
to
The_Chris wrote:
> stratrat <nomail@_invalid_.gov> wrote:
>> On 08/06/2014 11:02 PM, % wrote:
>>> notbob wrote:
>>>> On 2014-08-07, stratrat <nomail@_INVALID_.gov> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> On 08/06/2014 07:10 PM, Too long in the Wasteland wrote:
>>>>
>>>>>> NPS .. notes per second .. mean nothing. Soulless noise. Buzz saw.
>>>>
>>>>> yessssssssssss
>>>>
>>>> I gotta agree.
>>>>
>>>> I sometimes wish I could do a smokin' hot high-speed run on my axe,
>>>> but it's a well thought out lick or run, one that perfectly fits the
>>>> song, that I'm more interested in learning. ;)
>>>>
>>>> nb
>>>
>>> FZ was the fastest and had the talent you talk about
>>
>>
>> it's like ballet and gymnastics; one is art the other ability and the
>> two are not interchangeable ..nor mutually exclusive
>>
>>
>>
>>
> Zappa was okay - however... he just always seemed to solo over pedal
> tones and one-chord passages (Rot Tomago (sp).
To an extent. You have to remember that around 1979 when "Sheik" came
> stratrat <nomail@_invalid_.gov> wrote:
>> On 08/06/2014 11:02 PM, % wrote:
>>> notbob wrote:
>>>> On 2014-08-07, stratrat <nomail@_INVALID_.gov> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> On 08/06/2014 07:10 PM, Too long in the Wasteland wrote:
>>>>
>>>>>> NPS .. notes per second .. mean nothing. Soulless noise. Buzz saw.
>>>>
>>>>> yessssssssssss
>>>>
>>>> I gotta agree.
>>>>
>>>> I sometimes wish I could do a smokin' hot high-speed run on my axe,
>>>> but it's a well thought out lick or run, one that perfectly fits the
>>>> song, that I'm more interested in learning. ;)
>>>>
>>>> nb
>>>
>>> FZ was the fastest and had the talent you talk about
>>
>>
>> it's like ballet and gymnastics; one is art the other ability and the
>> two are not interchangeable ..nor mutually exclusive
>>
>>
>>
>>
> Zappa was okay - however... he just always seemed to solo over pedal
> tones and one-chord passages (Rot Tomago (sp).
out, that was kinda new. The alternatives were RTF or Weather Report
style things; Dixie Dregs perhaps. Zappa and the Dregs were fun; the
other stuff was just tedious.
I say "kinda"; to my ear it's more or less the approach taken with bebop
but cleaned up to where it's not quite as introspective.
A fine example is "Yo Mama".
It's also easy to forget that things like Tubular Bells sold well
in the '70s. Hot Rats and Tubular Bells have a lot musically in common
to me. It was the headphone era...
> I never really heard him
> solo over passages where he had to follow a theme.
>
"Zoot Allures" is another. The sheer volume of output makes
this a little daunting.
> Also, he did a lot of chromatic stuff - which - honestly - is the easy
> way out...
>
> Point me to a great solo by him where he's playing over an interesting
> backing and not just droning for 8 minutes to bass and drums... I'd like
> to change my opinion..
>
not clear to me that without him, Vai would have released "Flex-able"
and that founded all the G3 type records that followed.
I think that Zappa let his keyboard players handle most of the themes.
Zappa wasn't a *good* guitar player, he was iconoclastic and had a
style. I kinda like somebody throwing an Egyptian scale across odd-meter
backing, but I can certainly see why you wouldn't.
If I had my guess, I'd say that Lumpy Gravy and CPIII were as close to
what Frank *wanted* to do, but kind of couldn't.
>
> I'm assuming you were referring to Zappa..
>
>
Les Cargill
FlipDoubt
Aug 9, 2014, 4:01:25 PM8/9/14
to
anyone a listen. But just isolated "speed" and quality
are two different things. If one guy was proven to
be the "fastest guitarist" alive. Would you rush out
and buy his records? Have you heard what "Flight
of the Bumblebee" sounds like at silly-fast speeds?
Sounds like shiitake mushrooms on acid.
Flip
FlipDoubt
Aug 9, 2014, 4:12:53 PM8/9/14
to
On 8/6/2014 5:36 PM, clubze...@gmail.com wrote:
> Rick raven I know personally.
> He lived in Stockport Manchester.
> I was with him when he broke the world record.
> He was just an average unknown kid.
> Not famous but did have a band called Rick raven and the touch.
> I myself was the comedy act on his gigs
>
Speed AND quality is the place I want to be.
> Rick raven I know personally.
> He lived in Stockport Manchester.
> I was with him when he broke the world record.
> He was just an average unknown kid.
> Not famous but did have a band called Rick raven and the touch.
> I myself was the comedy act on his gigs
>
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k_5YZbmLI4c
Flip
Flasherly
Aug 9, 2014, 8:43:53 PM8/9/14
to
On Sat, 09 Aug 2014 14:05:24 -0400, stratrat <nomail@_INVALID_.gov>
wrote:
>Don't know Zappa, but for me it's like classical music of which I like a
>total of maybe 1 piece: Pachelbel's canon in D. Too bad he burned
>everything! Most other classics remind me of gymnastics when I listen to
>them, music was entering a new era of discovery and too many were just
>strutting their prowess screamin 'look ma', up-and-down the scales at
>lightning speed, no hands even!". That's how I see it, luckily there
>was music then and today that's what music should be, the necessarily
>evocative language of the soul, and there was then and also is today
>what is just fucking noise.
There's a "few" more...
Given this scholarly quagmire, I can see where an understudy might,
throw up his hands in despair to proclaim - 'Damn, Sam, might as well
have burnt them.' ...
"Pachelbel lived in an age when composers geared their output to the
needs of their environment; originality was not at a premium, but nor
was it entirely precluded. Composer-performers frequently adapted
pieces by one another and Pachelbel's pupils formed a school whose
music was not always readily distinguishable from that of the master.
Thus, with the organ works in particular, there are tremendous
problems of attribution and authentication, problems which did not
necessarily exist for Pachelbel and his contemporaries. Furthermore,
some sources spell Pachelbel's name with a ‘B’ or abbreviate it to ‘J.
Bach’, so that, given his close association with the Bach family (most
of whom had ‘J.’ as their first initial), there is enormous potential
for confusion. Some editors, particularly Gurgel, have included more
poorly authenticated works in their editions than their predecessors,
resulting in a longer list of works, which, despite its violation of
the purity of the Pachelbel ‘canon’, at least provides a wider picture
of his school. The so-called Weimar tablature (ed. S. Schwenkedel,
Arras, 1993), a manuscript of 1704 attributed on its title-page to
Pachelbel, comprises 160 chorale melodies with figured bass, roughly
half of which are accompanied by short introductory fugues based on
the opening of the chorale. The tablature is clearly pedagogic,
acquainting the organist with the art of harmonization and
improvisation. As such, it is an extremely valuable document and the
authorship of each fugue – given its simplicity – is largely
irrelevant. Eggebrecht (1965), who was loth to attribute the whole
collection to Pachelbel, on account of its uneven quality, noted that
16 of the pieces are reductions of known works by the master and six
can be identified as works by his pupils. Suzy Schwenkedels, in her
edition and commentary, is surely correct in attributing them to
‘Johann Pachelbel and his school’." -wiki
Nevertheless and in contradiction to any misleading distinction for
Pachelbel and a dearth of tangible works... (from another, albeit
rather an exhaustive source) ...
8. Posthumous reputation.
Pachelbel was one of the few 17th-century composers whose name was
never entirely forgotten. He enjoyed more than local fame as a teacher
in both Erfurt and Nuremberg, and though he never left Germany he was
revered far beyond it. In the first half of the 19th century Franz
Commer published much of his organ music in Musica sacra, i (1839),
and Winterfeld stressed his activity as a composer of sacred vocal
music. German scholars later in the century sought to determine his
place in music history. Spitta (1873–80) was the first to deal in
depth with his part in the process of musical development culminating
in Bach, while both Ritter (1884) and Seiffert (1899) assigned him a
high place in the history of keyboard music. The 20th century opened
auspiciously with the scholarly editions of some of his music in the
Denkmäler series. Every decade since then has seen the appearance of
studies dealing with the stylistic evaluation of his music or with the
discovery of unfamiliar works. The overwhelming popularity of his
canon for three violins and continuo has given him a name more
familiar than that of any of his German contemporaries, which should
at least ensure that publications and performances of works surviving
only in manuscript will engender public interest. All the accumulated
evidence indicates beyond doubt that he was one of the greatest and
most productive composers of his time and that he left a musical
legacy whose value increases with the ages.
Pachelbel: (1) Johann Pachelbel
WORKS
Editions: Klavierwerke von Johann Pachelbel, ed. M. Seiffert and A.
Sandberger, DTB, ii, Jg.ii/1 (1901) [K]Orgelkompositionen von Johann
Pachelbel, ed. M. Seiffert, DTB, vi, Jg.iv/1 (1903) [O]Johann
Pachelbel: Ausgewählte Orgelwerke, i–iv, ed. K. Matthaei (Kassel,
1928–36/R); v–vi, ed. W. Stockmeier (Kassel, 1972–4); vii–viii, ed. T.
Zászkaliczky (Kassel, 1981–2); ix, ed. W. Stockmeier (Kassel, 1984)
[P]Johann Pachelbel: Toccaten, Fantasien, Praeludien, Fugen, Ricercare
und Ciaconen, i–ii, ed. A.M. Gurgel (Leipzig, 1982–3) [G]
organ chorales
Acht Choräle zum Praeambulieren (Nuremberg, 1693) [1693]
fugues
Ach Gott, vom Himmel sieh darein; P iii; O, 1
Ach Herr, mich armen Sünder; P iii, 5a; O, 3
Christe, der du bist Tag und Licht; O; longer version, Us-Yb, ? by
J.S. Bach (bwv 1096)
Der Herr ist mein getreuer Hirt (2 versions); P iii, O
Dies sind die heil’gen zehn Gebot, 1693; O
Es woll uns Gott genädig sein (2 versions); P iii, O
In dich hab’ ich gehoffet, Herr; P iii
Wo Gott zum Haus nicht gibt sein Gunst; P iii, 11a; O, 70
3-part cantus firmus
Christ unser Herr zum Jordan kam; P iii, O
Durch Adams Fall; O, 21
Erbarm dich mein, o Herre Gott; O
Gelobet seist du, Jesu Christ; P ii, O
Gott der Vater, wohn' uns bei; Pii, O
Herr Gott, dich loben alle wir; O
Ich hab’ mein’ Sach’ Gott heimgestellt; P iii, O
Ich ruf zu dir, 1693; P iii; O, 37
Jesus Christus, unser Heiland, der den Tod (2 versions); P ii; O,
40–41
Kommt her zu mir, spricht Gottes Sohn; O
Lob sei Gott in des Himmels Thron; O
Meine Seele erhebt den Herren (tonus peregrinus) (2 versions); P ii, O
O Mensch bewein dein Sünde gross; P ii, O
Vom Himmel hoch da komm ich her, 1693; P ii, 5a; O, 57
Warum betrübst du dich, mein Herz; P iii, 20a; O, 59
Was mein Gott will, das g’scheh allzeit; P iii; O, 62
Wenn wir in höchsten Nöten sein; P iii, 16a
Wie schön leuchtet der Morgenstern, 1693; P iii, O
Wo Gott der Herr nicht bei uns hält (2 versions); P iii; O, 67–8
Wo Gott zum Haus nicht gibt sein Gunst; P iii, 11b; O, 71
4-part cantus firmus
Gott Vater, der du deine Sonn’; P iii, O
Komm, Gott Schöpfer, heiliger Geist; P ii, O
Vater unser im Himmelreich, 1693; P iii; O, 55
combination-form
Ach Gott, vom Himmel sieh darein; O, 2
Ach Herr, mich armen Sünder; P iii, 5b; O, 4
Ach wie elend ist unsre Zeit; P iii, O
An Wasserflüssen Babylon (2 versions); P iii, O
Auf meinen lieben Gott; P iii, O; longer version, ? by J.M. Bach
Christ lag in Todesbanden; P ii, O
Der Tag der ist so freudenreich; P ii, O
Durch Adams Fall; P iii; O, 22
Ein feste Burg; P iii, O
Es spricht der Unweisen Mund wohl; P iii; O, 27
Herr Christ, der einig Gott’s Sohn; P ii, O
Herr Jesu Christ, ich weiss gar wohl; P iii
Ich ruf zu dir; O, 38
Nun komm der Heiden Heiland; P ii, O
O Lamm Gottes unschuldig; P ii, O
Vater unser im Himmelreich; O, 56
Vom Himmel hoch da komm ich her; P ii, 5b; O, 58
Warum betrübst du dich, mein Herz; P iii, 20b; O, 60
Wenn mein Stündlein vorhanden ist; P iii, O
Wenn wir in höchsten Nöten sein; P iii, 16b; O
Wo Gott der Herr nicht bei uns hält, O, 69
bicinia
Durch Adams Fall; O, 20
Jesus Christus, unser Heiland, der von uns, 1693; P iii; O, 42
Was mein Gott will, das g’scheh allzeit; O, 61
other types
Allein zu dir, Herr Jesu Christ (2 versions); P iii, O
Nun lob, mein’ Seel’, den Herren, 1693; P iii, O
Wir glauben all’ an einen Gott, 1693; P iii, O
magnificat fugues
98 Magnificat fugues: 23 in tone 1; 10 in tone 2; 11 in tone 3; 8 in
tone 4; 12 in tone 5; 10 in tone 6; 8 in tone 7; 13 in tone 8; ed.
A.M. Gurgel (Leipzig, 1985); 95 in P vii–viii; 94 ed. in DTÖ, xvii,
Jg.viii/2 (1901/R)
non-liturgical organ
15 toccatas: 5 in C, c, D, d, e, 2 in F, 4 in g; G, 12 in P i, v, vi,
ix, 14 in O, 1 ed. in Organum, iv/12 (Leipzig, ? after 1920)
7 preludes: 2 in d, E, G, g, A, a; 6 in G, O, 1 in P i
3 ricercares: C, c, f; G, P i, v, vi, O
6 fantasias: C, 2 in d, E, g, a; G, 4 in P i, vi, ix, 4 in K, 2 in O
29 fugues: 12 in C, c, 3 in D, d, 2 in e, F, 3 in G, g, 2 in A, 2 in
a, b; G, 19 in P i, v, vi, ix, 19 in O, 7 in K
6 ciaccone: C, 2 in D, d, F, f; G, 4 in P i, v, vi, ix, 3 in O
5 preludes and fugues: C, c, d, 2 in e; G, 1 in P v, 1 in O
2 toccatas and fugues: d, B; G, Pv, vi, 1 in O
Fugen und Praeambuln über die gewöhnlichsten Tonos figuratos,
announced 1704, possibly never composed (see GöhlerV, ii, 347)
other keyboard
suites
17 suites, c, C, c, d, D, E, e, E, F, f, g, G, A, a, A, B, b; lost,
formerly D-Bsb 40076, dated 1683, anon., attrib. Pachelbel by Seiffert
and Sandberger; K
2 suites, e, F, lost, formerly owned by Sandberger; K
Suite, G, DS
Suite, g, attrib. Pachelbel, copied 1692; K
chorale variations
Musicalische Sterbens-Gedancken (Erfurt, 1683) [1683]
Ach was soll ich Sünder machen; P iv, K
Alle Menschen müssen sterben, 1683; P iv, K
Christus, der ist mein Leben, 1683; P iv
Freu dich sehr, o meine Seele (Treuer Gott, ich muss dir klagen) (4
variations); P iv, O
Freue dich sehr, o meine Seele (12 variations), ?1683,
US-SPmoldenhauer
Herzlich tut mich verlangen, 1683; P iv
Was Gott tut, das ist wohlgetan, ?1683; P iv
Werde munter, mein Gemüte; P iv, K
(arias with variations)
Hexachordum Apollinis, sex arias exhibens … quam singulis suae sunt
subjectae variationes (Nuremberg, 1699): arias in d, e, F, g, a, Aria
Sebaldina in f; K
Arias in D, A, a (July, 1689), Arietta, F; P ix, K
chamber
Musicalische Ergötzung bestehend in 6 verstimten Partien, 2 vn, bc
(Nuremberg, 1695); ed. in HM, liv–lvi (1950–66)
Partie, G, 2 vn, 2 va, vc, bc; ed. in Organum, iii/22 (Leipzig, ?
after 1920)
Canon and gigue, D, 3 vn, bc; ed. in Organum, iii/24 (Leipzig, ? after
1920); ed. H. May (Mainz, 1969)
arias
Auf, werte Gäst, 1v, 2 vn, bc, D-Bsb; ed. in Winterfeld (1845/R),
ex.222
Augen, streuet Perlen-Tränen, 2vv, 4 va, va pro basso, org, Bsb
Das angenehmste Wetter, 1v, 2 vn, bc, Bsb (inc.)
Das Gewitter, 1v, 2 vn, bc, Bsb
Das Jahr fängt an, 1v, 2 vn, 2 va, bc, Bsb (inc.)
Der Widder Abrahams, 2vv, 2 vn, bc, Bsb
Die freuderfüllten Abendstunden, 1v, 2 vn, 2 va, bc, Bsb
Es muss die Sinne ja erfreuen, 1v, 2 vn, bc, Bsb
Geliebtes Vaterherz, 1v, 2 vn, 2 va, bc/vle, Bsb
Guter Walter unsers Rats, 1v, 2 vn, 2 va, bc, Bsb
Hör, grosser Mäcenat, 1v, 2 vn, 2 va, bc, Bsb
Mäcenas lebet noch, 1v, 2 vn, 2 va, tpt, bc, Bsb
Mein Leben, dessen Kreuz, 1v, 4 va, va pro basso, org, Bsb
O grosses Musenlicht, 1v, 2 vn, 2 va da gamba, bc, Bsb
So ist denn dies der Tag, 1v, chorus 4vv, 2 vn, 3 va, 4 tpt, timp, bc,
1679, WÜsa
So ist denn nun die Treu, 2vv, chorus 5vv, 2 fl, 2 vn, 3 va, bc, 1679,
WÜsa
Voller Wonder, voller Kunst, 4vv, bc, Bsb (inc.); ed. F. Commer,
Geistliche und weltliche Lieder des 16.–17. Jahrhunderts, i (Berlin,
1870); ed. in Winterfeld, ex.220
Wie nichtig, ach, 1v, 3 va, bc, Bsb
Wohl euch, die ihr in Gott verliebt, 4vv, Bsb (inc.); ed. in
Winterfeld, ex.221
motets
for double chorus and continuo unless otherwise stated
German
Der Herr ist König, darum toben die Völker, D-Bsb
Der Herr ist König und herrlich geschmückt, Bsb
Der Herr ist König und herrlich geschmückt, with Halleluja, 5vv, bc,
Bsb (inc.)
Gott ist unser Zuversicht, Bsb; ed. D. Kruger (Stuttgart, c1992)
Jauchzet dem Herrn, Bsb
Jauchzet Gott, alle Lande, Bsb
Nun danket alle Gott (M. Rinckart), 1705, Bsb
Singet dem Herrn, Bsb; ed. F. Commer, Musica sacra, iii (Berlin, 1843)
Tröste uns Gott, Bsb; ed. in DTB, x, Jg.vi/1 (1905); ed. F. Commer,
Musica sacra, iii (Berlin, 1843)
Latin
Exsurgat Deus, Bsb
Paratum cor meum, Bsb
sacred concertos
Christ lag in Todesbanden, 4vv, 2 vn, 3 va, bn, bc, Bsb; ed. H.H.
Eggebrecht (Miami, 1988)
Der Name des Herren sei gelobet, 3vv, 2 vn, bc, Bsb
Gott ist unser Zuversicht, 4vv, 2 vn, 2 va, bn, bc, GB-Ob
Gott sei uns gnädig, 5vv, 5 tpt, timp, 2 vn, 4 va, bn, bc, org, Ob;
ed. in Woodward (1952)
Jauchzet dem Herrn, alle Welt (Rinckart), G, 5vv, 2 ob, 2 vn, 3 va,
vle, bc, D-Bsb; ed. D. Krüger (Stuttgart, 1963)
Jauchzet dem Herrn, alle Welt (Rinckart), C, 5vv, 4 tpt, timp, 2 vn, 3
va, bn, bc, GB-Ob
Kommt her zu mir (J.M. Dilher and J. Franck), 4vv, 2 vn, 2 ?cornetts,
bc, Ob; ed. in Woodward
Lobet den Herrn in seinem Heiligtum, 5vv, 2 fl, bn, 5 tpt, trbn, timp,
cymbal, harp, 2 vn, 3 va, bc, org, Ob
Meine Sünde betrüben mich, 1v, chorus 4vv, 4 va da gamba, bn/vle, bc,
D-Bsb (fragmentary copy of lost MS, formerly F-Sm, see EitnerQ), D-Dlb
Mein Herr Jesu, dir leb ich, 4vv, 3 va, bc, Bsb, parody of Meine Sünde
betrüben mich, by unknown arranger
Was Gott tut, das ist wohlgetan, 4vv, 2 vn, 2 va, bn, bc, Bsb
(title-page only; also fragmentary copy of MSS formerly in F-Sm, now
?F-Ssp); ed. in DTB, x, Jg.vi/1 (1905); partial edn in Winterfeld
(1845/R), ex.219
music for vespers
Ingressus, C, 4vv, 2 vn, va, bc, D-Bsb
Ingressus, C, 4vv, 2 vn, 3 va, bn, bc, GB-Ob; ed. in Woodward (1952)
Ingressus, C, 5vv, 4 tpt, timp, 2 vn, 3 va, bn, bc, org, Ob
Ingressus, D, 4vv, 2 vn, va, bc, D-Bsb
Ingressus, D, 4vv, 2 vn, 3 va, bn, bc, GB-Ob
Ingressus, d, 5vv, 2 vn, 3 va, bn, bc, Ob
Ingressus, F, 5vv, 2 vn, 4 va, bn, bc, Ob; ed. in Woodward
Ingressus, G, 4vv, 2 vn, 3 va (ad lib), bn (ad lib), bc, D-Bsb, GB-Ob
Ingressus, g, 4vv, 2 vn, bn, bc, Ob
Ingressus, g, 5vv, 2 vn, va, 2 va da gamba, bn, bc, Ob
Ingressus, A, 5vv, 2 vn, 3 va, bn, bc, Ob
Ingressus, a, 5vv, 2 vn, 3 va, bn, bc, Ob
Magnificat, C, 5vv, 2 ob, 2 vn, 3 va, bn, bc, Ob
Magnificat, C, 5vv, 4 tpt, timp, 2 vn, va, 2 va da gamba, bn, bc, org,
Ob; ed. in Woodward
Magnificat, C, 4vv, 2 ?tpt, 2 vn, 2 va, bc, Ob
Magnificat, C, 5vv, 4 tpt, timp, 2 vn, va, 2 va da gamba, bn, bc, Ob
Magnificat, D, 5vv, 2 vn, 2 cornett/ob, 3 va, bn, bc, Ob
Magnificat, D, double chorus, each 5vv, double orch, each 2 vn, 3 va,
bn, bc, Ob
Magnificat, D, 4vv, 4 va (ad lib), D-Bsb
Magnificat, E, 4vv, 2 vn, 3 va, bn, bc, org, GB-Ob; ed. in Woodward
Magnificat, F, 4vv, 2 vn, bn, bc, Ob; same as Canticum BVM à 4 voix et
instruments cited by A. Pirro in EMDC, I/ii (1921)
Magnificat, F, 5vv, 2 vn, bc, Ob
Magnificat, G, 4vv, 2 vn, bc, Ob
Magnificat, g, 4vv, 1705, D-Bsb
Magnificat, B, 5vv, 2 ob, 2 vn, 3 va, bn, bc, org, GB-Ob
masses
Missa, C, 4vv, 2 vn, clarino, bc, GB-Ob
Missa brevis, D, 4vv, 1704, D-Bsb
doubtful works
10 chorales, org: Allein Gott in der Höh sei Ehr, P ii, 6a, O, 6, ? by
Buttstett; Allein Gott in der Höh sei Ehr, P ii, 6b, O, 7, ? by
Buttstett; Da Jesus am dem Kreuze stund, P ii, O; Erhalt uns Herr, bei
deinem Wort, O, ? by Böhm or Buxtehude; Es spricht der Unweisen Mund,
O, 26; Gott hat das Evangelium, P iii, O, ? by J.M. Bach; Gott Vater,
der du deine Sonn’, P iii, O, ? by J.M. Bach; Mag ich Unglück nicht
widerstahr, P iii, O, ? by J.M. Bach; Nun freut euch, lieben Christen
g'mein’, P ii, O, ? by J.M. Bach; Nun lasst uns Gott dem Herren, P
iii, O, ? by J.M. Bach
c80 org works, D-WRtl, attrib. Pachelbel in T. Fedtke: J. Pachelbel:
Orgelwerke, i: Chorfugen und Choräle aus dem Weimarer Tabulaturbuch
1704 (Frankfurt, 1972); according to Eggebrecht (1965) c16 are
reductions of known authentic org works and can be attrib. to
Pachelbel's pupils
Christ ist erstanden, 1v, vn, bc, ? c1700, Bsb 30094 attrib. ‘di
Achilles’
Gott du Gott Israel, 5vv, 4 ?vn, bc, Bsb 30282, attrib. ‘Pachelbel?’
by Poelchau, collector of MS; cited incorrectly in EitnerQ as Deinem
Namen sey ewig Ehr, i.e. 2nd phrase of text
In nomine Jesu, incorrectly cited in EitnerQ as separate work,
actually superscription to another work
lost works
organ; formerly in Plauener Orgelbuch, 1708
Der Herr ist mein getreuer Hirt; Erbarm dich mein, o Herre Gott; O
Lamm Gottes unschuldig; O Mensch bewein dein Sünde gross; Wir danken
dir, Herr Jesu Christ: see Seiffert (1920)
other keyboard; formerly in Mylauer Tabulaturbuch, 1750
Aria and 3 variations, c; Aria and 7 variations, G; Aria and 6
variations, a; Chromatic fugue, e; Fugue, D; Prelude and fugue, c;
Prelude and fugue, d: see Seiffert (1918–19)
chamber; cited in Beckmann, extant in 1938, see Doflein
Aria con variazione, C, vn, 2 va da gamba; Partie, D, 2 vn, bc,
transposed version of Partie, no.1, F, from Musicalische Ergötzung;
Partie, f, vn, 2 va, hpd; Partie, G; Sonata, G, vn, hpd (authenticity
questioned, see Doflein, 1938); Zwillingspartie, D, 2 vn, incipit in
Beckmann
vocal
Ach Herr, straff mich nicht, 1v, 3 insts; Ich fahr dahin mit Freuden,
1v, 5 insts; Ich kan nicht mehr, 2vv, 4 insts; attrib. Bachhelbel,
formerly F-Sm
Dixit Dominus, 4vv, 5 insts, cited in Musikalien Verzeichniss
Ansbacher Hof, entry dated 1686, Nuremberg, Staatsarchiv
Christ ist erstanden, 1v, insts; Deus in adjutorium, 5vv, 6 insts;
Herr, wenn deine Wort nicht wäre, a 5; Jauchzet dem Herren alle Welt,
a 13; Ich bin die Aufferstehung, a 13; Kommet her zu mir, 4vv, 5
insts; Magnificat, a 13; Magnificat, ex D dur, a 13; cited in
inventory of Landesarchiv Rudolstadt c1710–15, Rudolstadt,
Schlossarchiv
Was Gott thut, das ist wohlgetan; Was Gott tut, das ist wohlgetan, a
9: attrib. M. Bachelbel, cited in inventory of organist Adam
Meissner’s legacy, Halle (see Krummacher, 1967)
Herr hebe an zu segnen, 5vv, 5 va, bn; Wenn wir in höchsten Nöthen
seyn, 4vv, 4 va, 2 other insts; cited in music catalogue of
Michaelisschule, Lüneburg, 1695, D-Lm
Festo Johann Baptistae: Ich will den Herrn loben allezeit, in Dialog,
9vv, 5 insts; attrib. Bachelbel, owned by Martin Music, Kantor at
Stettin c1702
Pachelbel: (1) Johann Pachelbel
wrote:
>Don't know Zappa, but for me it's like classical music of which I like a
>total of maybe 1 piece: Pachelbel's canon in D. Too bad he burned
>everything! Most other classics remind me of gymnastics when I listen to
>them, music was entering a new era of discovery and too many were just
>strutting their prowess screamin 'look ma', up-and-down the scales at
>lightning speed, no hands even!". That's how I see it, luckily there
>was music then and today that's what music should be, the necessarily
>evocative language of the soul, and there was then and also is today
>what is just fucking noise.
Given this scholarly quagmire, I can see where an understudy might,
throw up his hands in despair to proclaim - 'Damn, Sam, might as well
have burnt them.' ...
"Pachelbel lived in an age when composers geared their output to the
needs of their environment; originality was not at a premium, but nor
was it entirely precluded. Composer-performers frequently adapted
pieces by one another and Pachelbel's pupils formed a school whose
music was not always readily distinguishable from that of the master.
Thus, with the organ works in particular, there are tremendous
problems of attribution and authentication, problems which did not
necessarily exist for Pachelbel and his contemporaries. Furthermore,
some sources spell Pachelbel's name with a ‘B’ or abbreviate it to ‘J.
Bach’, so that, given his close association with the Bach family (most
of whom had ‘J.’ as their first initial), there is enormous potential
for confusion. Some editors, particularly Gurgel, have included more
poorly authenticated works in their editions than their predecessors,
resulting in a longer list of works, which, despite its violation of
the purity of the Pachelbel ‘canon’, at least provides a wider picture
of his school. The so-called Weimar tablature (ed. S. Schwenkedel,
Arras, 1993), a manuscript of 1704 attributed on its title-page to
Pachelbel, comprises 160 chorale melodies with figured bass, roughly
half of which are accompanied by short introductory fugues based on
the opening of the chorale. The tablature is clearly pedagogic,
acquainting the organist with the art of harmonization and
improvisation. As such, it is an extremely valuable document and the
authorship of each fugue – given its simplicity – is largely
irrelevant. Eggebrecht (1965), who was loth to attribute the whole
collection to Pachelbel, on account of its uneven quality, noted that
16 of the pieces are reductions of known works by the master and six
can be identified as works by his pupils. Suzy Schwenkedels, in her
edition and commentary, is surely correct in attributing them to
‘Johann Pachelbel and his school’." -wiki
Nevertheless and in contradiction to any misleading distinction for
Pachelbel and a dearth of tangible works... (from another, albeit
rather an exhaustive source) ...
8. Posthumous reputation.
Pachelbel was one of the few 17th-century composers whose name was
never entirely forgotten. He enjoyed more than local fame as a teacher
in both Erfurt and Nuremberg, and though he never left Germany he was
revered far beyond it. In the first half of the 19th century Franz
Commer published much of his organ music in Musica sacra, i (1839),
and Winterfeld stressed his activity as a composer of sacred vocal
music. German scholars later in the century sought to determine his
place in music history. Spitta (1873–80) was the first to deal in
depth with his part in the process of musical development culminating
in Bach, while both Ritter (1884) and Seiffert (1899) assigned him a
high place in the history of keyboard music. The 20th century opened
auspiciously with the scholarly editions of some of his music in the
Denkmäler series. Every decade since then has seen the appearance of
studies dealing with the stylistic evaluation of his music or with the
discovery of unfamiliar works. The overwhelming popularity of his
canon for three violins and continuo has given him a name more
familiar than that of any of his German contemporaries, which should
at least ensure that publications and performances of works surviving
only in manuscript will engender public interest. All the accumulated
evidence indicates beyond doubt that he was one of the greatest and
most productive composers of his time and that he left a musical
legacy whose value increases with the ages.
Pachelbel: (1) Johann Pachelbel
WORKS
Editions: Klavierwerke von Johann Pachelbel, ed. M. Seiffert and A.
Sandberger, DTB, ii, Jg.ii/1 (1901) [K]Orgelkompositionen von Johann
Pachelbel, ed. M. Seiffert, DTB, vi, Jg.iv/1 (1903) [O]Johann
Pachelbel: Ausgewählte Orgelwerke, i–iv, ed. K. Matthaei (Kassel,
1928–36/R); v–vi, ed. W. Stockmeier (Kassel, 1972–4); vii–viii, ed. T.
Zászkaliczky (Kassel, 1981–2); ix, ed. W. Stockmeier (Kassel, 1984)
[P]Johann Pachelbel: Toccaten, Fantasien, Praeludien, Fugen, Ricercare
und Ciaconen, i–ii, ed. A.M. Gurgel (Leipzig, 1982–3) [G]
organ chorales
Acht Choräle zum Praeambulieren (Nuremberg, 1693) [1693]
fugues
Ach Gott, vom Himmel sieh darein; P iii; O, 1
Ach Herr, mich armen Sünder; P iii, 5a; O, 3
Christe, der du bist Tag und Licht; O; longer version, Us-Yb, ? by
J.S. Bach (bwv 1096)
Der Herr ist mein getreuer Hirt (2 versions); P iii, O
Dies sind die heil’gen zehn Gebot, 1693; O
Es woll uns Gott genädig sein (2 versions); P iii, O
In dich hab’ ich gehoffet, Herr; P iii
Wo Gott zum Haus nicht gibt sein Gunst; P iii, 11a; O, 70
3-part cantus firmus
Christ unser Herr zum Jordan kam; P iii, O
Durch Adams Fall; O, 21
Erbarm dich mein, o Herre Gott; O
Gelobet seist du, Jesu Christ; P ii, O
Gott der Vater, wohn' uns bei; Pii, O
Herr Gott, dich loben alle wir; O
Ich hab’ mein’ Sach’ Gott heimgestellt; P iii, O
Ich ruf zu dir, 1693; P iii; O, 37
Jesus Christus, unser Heiland, der den Tod (2 versions); P ii; O,
40–41
Kommt her zu mir, spricht Gottes Sohn; O
Lob sei Gott in des Himmels Thron; O
Meine Seele erhebt den Herren (tonus peregrinus) (2 versions); P ii, O
O Mensch bewein dein Sünde gross; P ii, O
Vom Himmel hoch da komm ich her, 1693; P ii, 5a; O, 57
Warum betrübst du dich, mein Herz; P iii, 20a; O, 59
Was mein Gott will, das g’scheh allzeit; P iii; O, 62
Wenn wir in höchsten Nöten sein; P iii, 16a
Wie schön leuchtet der Morgenstern, 1693; P iii, O
Wo Gott der Herr nicht bei uns hält (2 versions); P iii; O, 67–8
Wo Gott zum Haus nicht gibt sein Gunst; P iii, 11b; O, 71
4-part cantus firmus
Gott Vater, der du deine Sonn’; P iii, O
Komm, Gott Schöpfer, heiliger Geist; P ii, O
Vater unser im Himmelreich, 1693; P iii; O, 55
combination-form
Ach Gott, vom Himmel sieh darein; O, 2
Ach Herr, mich armen Sünder; P iii, 5b; O, 4
Ach wie elend ist unsre Zeit; P iii, O
An Wasserflüssen Babylon (2 versions); P iii, O
Auf meinen lieben Gott; P iii, O; longer version, ? by J.M. Bach
Christ lag in Todesbanden; P ii, O
Der Tag der ist so freudenreich; P ii, O
Durch Adams Fall; P iii; O, 22
Ein feste Burg; P iii, O
Es spricht der Unweisen Mund wohl; P iii; O, 27
Herr Christ, der einig Gott’s Sohn; P ii, O
Herr Jesu Christ, ich weiss gar wohl; P iii
Ich ruf zu dir; O, 38
Nun komm der Heiden Heiland; P ii, O
O Lamm Gottes unschuldig; P ii, O
Vater unser im Himmelreich; O, 56
Vom Himmel hoch da komm ich her; P ii, 5b; O, 58
Warum betrübst du dich, mein Herz; P iii, 20b; O, 60
Wenn mein Stündlein vorhanden ist; P iii, O
Wenn wir in höchsten Nöten sein; P iii, 16b; O
Wo Gott der Herr nicht bei uns hält, O, 69
bicinia
Durch Adams Fall; O, 20
Jesus Christus, unser Heiland, der von uns, 1693; P iii; O, 42
Was mein Gott will, das g’scheh allzeit; O, 61
other types
Allein zu dir, Herr Jesu Christ (2 versions); P iii, O
Nun lob, mein’ Seel’, den Herren, 1693; P iii, O
Wir glauben all’ an einen Gott, 1693; P iii, O
magnificat fugues
98 Magnificat fugues: 23 in tone 1; 10 in tone 2; 11 in tone 3; 8 in
tone 4; 12 in tone 5; 10 in tone 6; 8 in tone 7; 13 in tone 8; ed.
A.M. Gurgel (Leipzig, 1985); 95 in P vii–viii; 94 ed. in DTÖ, xvii,
Jg.viii/2 (1901/R)
non-liturgical organ
15 toccatas: 5 in C, c, D, d, e, 2 in F, 4 in g; G, 12 in P i, v, vi,
ix, 14 in O, 1 ed. in Organum, iv/12 (Leipzig, ? after 1920)
7 preludes: 2 in d, E, G, g, A, a; 6 in G, O, 1 in P i
3 ricercares: C, c, f; G, P i, v, vi, O
6 fantasias: C, 2 in d, E, g, a; G, 4 in P i, vi, ix, 4 in K, 2 in O
29 fugues: 12 in C, c, 3 in D, d, 2 in e, F, 3 in G, g, 2 in A, 2 in
a, b; G, 19 in P i, v, vi, ix, 19 in O, 7 in K
6 ciaccone: C, 2 in D, d, F, f; G, 4 in P i, v, vi, ix, 3 in O
5 preludes and fugues: C, c, d, 2 in e; G, 1 in P v, 1 in O
2 toccatas and fugues: d, B; G, Pv, vi, 1 in O
Fugen und Praeambuln über die gewöhnlichsten Tonos figuratos,
announced 1704, possibly never composed (see GöhlerV, ii, 347)
other keyboard
suites
17 suites, c, C, c, d, D, E, e, E, F, f, g, G, A, a, A, B, b; lost,
formerly D-Bsb 40076, dated 1683, anon., attrib. Pachelbel by Seiffert
and Sandberger; K
2 suites, e, F, lost, formerly owned by Sandberger; K
Suite, G, DS
Suite, g, attrib. Pachelbel, copied 1692; K
chorale variations
Musicalische Sterbens-Gedancken (Erfurt, 1683) [1683]
Ach was soll ich Sünder machen; P iv, K
Alle Menschen müssen sterben, 1683; P iv, K
Christus, der ist mein Leben, 1683; P iv
Freu dich sehr, o meine Seele (Treuer Gott, ich muss dir klagen) (4
variations); P iv, O
Freue dich sehr, o meine Seele (12 variations), ?1683,
US-SPmoldenhauer
Herzlich tut mich verlangen, 1683; P iv
Was Gott tut, das ist wohlgetan, ?1683; P iv
Werde munter, mein Gemüte; P iv, K
(arias with variations)
Hexachordum Apollinis, sex arias exhibens … quam singulis suae sunt
subjectae variationes (Nuremberg, 1699): arias in d, e, F, g, a, Aria
Sebaldina in f; K
Arias in D, A, a (July, 1689), Arietta, F; P ix, K
chamber
Musicalische Ergötzung bestehend in 6 verstimten Partien, 2 vn, bc
(Nuremberg, 1695); ed. in HM, liv–lvi (1950–66)
Partie, G, 2 vn, 2 va, vc, bc; ed. in Organum, iii/22 (Leipzig, ?
after 1920)
Canon and gigue, D, 3 vn, bc; ed. in Organum, iii/24 (Leipzig, ? after
1920); ed. H. May (Mainz, 1969)
arias
Auf, werte Gäst, 1v, 2 vn, bc, D-Bsb; ed. in Winterfeld (1845/R),
ex.222
Augen, streuet Perlen-Tränen, 2vv, 4 va, va pro basso, org, Bsb
Das angenehmste Wetter, 1v, 2 vn, bc, Bsb (inc.)
Das Gewitter, 1v, 2 vn, bc, Bsb
Das Jahr fängt an, 1v, 2 vn, 2 va, bc, Bsb (inc.)
Der Widder Abrahams, 2vv, 2 vn, bc, Bsb
Die freuderfüllten Abendstunden, 1v, 2 vn, 2 va, bc, Bsb
Es muss die Sinne ja erfreuen, 1v, 2 vn, bc, Bsb
Geliebtes Vaterherz, 1v, 2 vn, 2 va, bc/vle, Bsb
Guter Walter unsers Rats, 1v, 2 vn, 2 va, bc, Bsb
Hör, grosser Mäcenat, 1v, 2 vn, 2 va, bc, Bsb
Mäcenas lebet noch, 1v, 2 vn, 2 va, tpt, bc, Bsb
Mein Leben, dessen Kreuz, 1v, 4 va, va pro basso, org, Bsb
O grosses Musenlicht, 1v, 2 vn, 2 va da gamba, bc, Bsb
So ist denn dies der Tag, 1v, chorus 4vv, 2 vn, 3 va, 4 tpt, timp, bc,
1679, WÜsa
So ist denn nun die Treu, 2vv, chorus 5vv, 2 fl, 2 vn, 3 va, bc, 1679,
WÜsa
Voller Wonder, voller Kunst, 4vv, bc, Bsb (inc.); ed. F. Commer,
Geistliche und weltliche Lieder des 16.–17. Jahrhunderts, i (Berlin,
1870); ed. in Winterfeld, ex.220
Wie nichtig, ach, 1v, 3 va, bc, Bsb
Wohl euch, die ihr in Gott verliebt, 4vv, Bsb (inc.); ed. in
Winterfeld, ex.221
motets
for double chorus and continuo unless otherwise stated
German
Der Herr ist König, darum toben die Völker, D-Bsb
Der Herr ist König und herrlich geschmückt, Bsb
Der Herr ist König und herrlich geschmückt, with Halleluja, 5vv, bc,
Bsb (inc.)
Gott ist unser Zuversicht, Bsb; ed. D. Kruger (Stuttgart, c1992)
Jauchzet dem Herrn, Bsb
Jauchzet Gott, alle Lande, Bsb
Nun danket alle Gott (M. Rinckart), 1705, Bsb
Singet dem Herrn, Bsb; ed. F. Commer, Musica sacra, iii (Berlin, 1843)
Tröste uns Gott, Bsb; ed. in DTB, x, Jg.vi/1 (1905); ed. F. Commer,
Musica sacra, iii (Berlin, 1843)
Latin
Exsurgat Deus, Bsb
Paratum cor meum, Bsb
sacred concertos
Christ lag in Todesbanden, 4vv, 2 vn, 3 va, bn, bc, Bsb; ed. H.H.
Eggebrecht (Miami, 1988)
Der Name des Herren sei gelobet, 3vv, 2 vn, bc, Bsb
Gott ist unser Zuversicht, 4vv, 2 vn, 2 va, bn, bc, GB-Ob
Gott sei uns gnädig, 5vv, 5 tpt, timp, 2 vn, 4 va, bn, bc, org, Ob;
ed. in Woodward (1952)
Jauchzet dem Herrn, alle Welt (Rinckart), G, 5vv, 2 ob, 2 vn, 3 va,
vle, bc, D-Bsb; ed. D. Krüger (Stuttgart, 1963)
Jauchzet dem Herrn, alle Welt (Rinckart), C, 5vv, 4 tpt, timp, 2 vn, 3
va, bn, bc, GB-Ob
Kommt her zu mir (J.M. Dilher and J. Franck), 4vv, 2 vn, 2 ?cornetts,
bc, Ob; ed. in Woodward
Lobet den Herrn in seinem Heiligtum, 5vv, 2 fl, bn, 5 tpt, trbn, timp,
cymbal, harp, 2 vn, 3 va, bc, org, Ob
Meine Sünde betrüben mich, 1v, chorus 4vv, 4 va da gamba, bn/vle, bc,
D-Bsb (fragmentary copy of lost MS, formerly F-Sm, see EitnerQ), D-Dlb
Mein Herr Jesu, dir leb ich, 4vv, 3 va, bc, Bsb, parody of Meine Sünde
betrüben mich, by unknown arranger
Was Gott tut, das ist wohlgetan, 4vv, 2 vn, 2 va, bn, bc, Bsb
(title-page only; also fragmentary copy of MSS formerly in F-Sm, now
?F-Ssp); ed. in DTB, x, Jg.vi/1 (1905); partial edn in Winterfeld
(1845/R), ex.219
music for vespers
Ingressus, C, 4vv, 2 vn, va, bc, D-Bsb
Ingressus, C, 4vv, 2 vn, 3 va, bn, bc, GB-Ob; ed. in Woodward (1952)
Ingressus, C, 5vv, 4 tpt, timp, 2 vn, 3 va, bn, bc, org, Ob
Ingressus, D, 4vv, 2 vn, va, bc, D-Bsb
Ingressus, D, 4vv, 2 vn, 3 va, bn, bc, GB-Ob
Ingressus, d, 5vv, 2 vn, 3 va, bn, bc, Ob
Ingressus, F, 5vv, 2 vn, 4 va, bn, bc, Ob; ed. in Woodward
Ingressus, G, 4vv, 2 vn, 3 va (ad lib), bn (ad lib), bc, D-Bsb, GB-Ob
Ingressus, g, 4vv, 2 vn, bn, bc, Ob
Ingressus, g, 5vv, 2 vn, va, 2 va da gamba, bn, bc, Ob
Ingressus, A, 5vv, 2 vn, 3 va, bn, bc, Ob
Ingressus, a, 5vv, 2 vn, 3 va, bn, bc, Ob
Magnificat, C, 5vv, 2 ob, 2 vn, 3 va, bn, bc, Ob
Magnificat, C, 5vv, 4 tpt, timp, 2 vn, va, 2 va da gamba, bn, bc, org,
Ob; ed. in Woodward
Magnificat, C, 4vv, 2 ?tpt, 2 vn, 2 va, bc, Ob
Magnificat, C, 5vv, 4 tpt, timp, 2 vn, va, 2 va da gamba, bn, bc, Ob
Magnificat, D, 5vv, 2 vn, 2 cornett/ob, 3 va, bn, bc, Ob
Magnificat, D, double chorus, each 5vv, double orch, each 2 vn, 3 va,
bn, bc, Ob
Magnificat, D, 4vv, 4 va (ad lib), D-Bsb
Magnificat, E, 4vv, 2 vn, 3 va, bn, bc, org, GB-Ob; ed. in Woodward
Magnificat, F, 4vv, 2 vn, bn, bc, Ob; same as Canticum BVM à 4 voix et
instruments cited by A. Pirro in EMDC, I/ii (1921)
Magnificat, F, 5vv, 2 vn, bc, Ob
Magnificat, G, 4vv, 2 vn, bc, Ob
Magnificat, g, 4vv, 1705, D-Bsb
Magnificat, B, 5vv, 2 ob, 2 vn, 3 va, bn, bc, org, GB-Ob
masses
Missa, C, 4vv, 2 vn, clarino, bc, GB-Ob
Missa brevis, D, 4vv, 1704, D-Bsb
doubtful works
10 chorales, org: Allein Gott in der Höh sei Ehr, P ii, 6a, O, 6, ? by
Buttstett; Allein Gott in der Höh sei Ehr, P ii, 6b, O, 7, ? by
Buttstett; Da Jesus am dem Kreuze stund, P ii, O; Erhalt uns Herr, bei
deinem Wort, O, ? by Böhm or Buxtehude; Es spricht der Unweisen Mund,
O, 26; Gott hat das Evangelium, P iii, O, ? by J.M. Bach; Gott Vater,
der du deine Sonn’, P iii, O, ? by J.M. Bach; Mag ich Unglück nicht
widerstahr, P iii, O, ? by J.M. Bach; Nun freut euch, lieben Christen
g'mein’, P ii, O, ? by J.M. Bach; Nun lasst uns Gott dem Herren, P
iii, O, ? by J.M. Bach
c80 org works, D-WRtl, attrib. Pachelbel in T. Fedtke: J. Pachelbel:
Orgelwerke, i: Chorfugen und Choräle aus dem Weimarer Tabulaturbuch
1704 (Frankfurt, 1972); according to Eggebrecht (1965) c16 are
reductions of known authentic org works and can be attrib. to
Pachelbel's pupils
Christ ist erstanden, 1v, vn, bc, ? c1700, Bsb 30094 attrib. ‘di
Achilles’
Gott du Gott Israel, 5vv, 4 ?vn, bc, Bsb 30282, attrib. ‘Pachelbel?’
by Poelchau, collector of MS; cited incorrectly in EitnerQ as Deinem
Namen sey ewig Ehr, i.e. 2nd phrase of text
In nomine Jesu, incorrectly cited in EitnerQ as separate work,
actually superscription to another work
lost works
organ; formerly in Plauener Orgelbuch, 1708
Der Herr ist mein getreuer Hirt; Erbarm dich mein, o Herre Gott; O
Lamm Gottes unschuldig; O Mensch bewein dein Sünde gross; Wir danken
dir, Herr Jesu Christ: see Seiffert (1920)
other keyboard; formerly in Mylauer Tabulaturbuch, 1750
Aria and 3 variations, c; Aria and 7 variations, G; Aria and 6
variations, a; Chromatic fugue, e; Fugue, D; Prelude and fugue, c;
Prelude and fugue, d: see Seiffert (1918–19)
chamber; cited in Beckmann, extant in 1938, see Doflein
Aria con variazione, C, vn, 2 va da gamba; Partie, D, 2 vn, bc,
transposed version of Partie, no.1, F, from Musicalische Ergötzung;
Partie, f, vn, 2 va, hpd; Partie, G; Sonata, G, vn, hpd (authenticity
questioned, see Doflein, 1938); Zwillingspartie, D, 2 vn, incipit in
Beckmann
vocal
Ach Herr, straff mich nicht, 1v, 3 insts; Ich fahr dahin mit Freuden,
1v, 5 insts; Ich kan nicht mehr, 2vv, 4 insts; attrib. Bachhelbel,
formerly F-Sm
Dixit Dominus, 4vv, 5 insts, cited in Musikalien Verzeichniss
Ansbacher Hof, entry dated 1686, Nuremberg, Staatsarchiv
Christ ist erstanden, 1v, insts; Deus in adjutorium, 5vv, 6 insts;
Herr, wenn deine Wort nicht wäre, a 5; Jauchzet dem Herren alle Welt,
a 13; Ich bin die Aufferstehung, a 13; Kommet her zu mir, 4vv, 5
insts; Magnificat, a 13; Magnificat, ex D dur, a 13; cited in
inventory of Landesarchiv Rudolstadt c1710–15, Rudolstadt,
Schlossarchiv
Was Gott thut, das ist wohlgetan; Was Gott tut, das ist wohlgetan, a
9: attrib. M. Bachelbel, cited in inventory of organist Adam
Meissner’s legacy, Halle (see Krummacher, 1967)
Herr hebe an zu segnen, 5vv, 5 va, bn; Wenn wir in höchsten Nöthen
seyn, 4vv, 4 va, 2 other insts; cited in music catalogue of
Michaelisschule, Lüneburg, 1695, D-Lm
Festo Johann Baptistae: Ich will den Herrn loben allezeit, in Dialog,
9vv, 5 insts; attrib. Bachelbel, owned by Martin Music, Kantor at
Stettin c1702
Pachelbel: (1) Johann Pachelbel
stratrat
Aug 9, 2014, 9:30:11 PM8/9/14
to
On 08/09/2014 08:43 PM, Flasherly wrote:
> On Sat, 09 Aug 2014 14:05:24 -0400, stratrat <nomail@_INVALID_.gov>
> wrote:
>
>> Don't know Zappa, but for me it's like classical music of which I like a
>> total of maybe 1 piece: Pachelbel's canon in D. Too bad he burned
>> everything! Most other classics remind me of gymnastics when I listen to
>> them, music was entering a new era of discovery and too many were just
>> strutting their prowess screamin 'look ma', up-and-down the scales at
>> lightning speed, no hands even!". That's how I see it, luckily there
>> was music then and today that's what music should be, the necessarily
>> evocative language of the soul, and there was then and also is today
>> what is just fucking noise.
>
> There's a "few" more...
>
> Given this scholarly quagmire, I can see where an understudy might,
> throw up his hands in despair to proclaim - 'Damn, Sam, might as well
> have burnt them.' ...
I'm not much of an expert, and maybe we oughta investigate _the-burn_
> On Sat, 09 Aug 2014 14:05:24 -0400, stratrat <nomail@_INVALID_.gov>
> wrote:
>
>> Don't know Zappa, but for me it's like classical music of which I like a
>> total of maybe 1 piece: Pachelbel's canon in D. Too bad he burned
>> everything! Most other classics remind me of gymnastics when I listen to
>> them, music was entering a new era of discovery and too many were just
>> strutting their prowess screamin 'look ma', up-and-down the scales at
>> lightning speed, no hands even!". That's how I see it, luckily there
>> was music then and today that's what music should be, the necessarily
>> evocative language of the soul, and there was then and also is today
>> what is just fucking noise.
>
> There's a "few" more...
>
> Given this scholarly quagmire, I can see where an understudy might,
> throw up his hands in despair to proclaim - 'Damn, Sam, might as well
> have burnt them.' ...
whodonit in more detail, but I believe that a lot of the old hand's
magic ended up on Bach staff, whaaaaaatever. As for his throwing his
best in the fireplace (the i.e. _D_ Canon somehow got missed as it was
just then elsewhere) it always reminded me of Darwin's latter years in
which he was said to have become pensive, melancholy and quasi
religious. All I regret is that IF the rest of the flaming sheetmusic
was anywhere near _D_ Canon in caliber then you and me and 8 billion
also rans all lost and lost BIG.
nm...@wt.net
Aug 9, 2014, 9:45:12 PM8/9/14
to
had a litter of kittens while mental tossing underneath a dental
floss bush. :|
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RMFI8G5w8ws
The_Chris
Aug 9, 2014, 10:40:24 PM8/9/14
to
sense like that. Once, I saw Segovia perform at Carnegie Hall. I
wondered how awesome he would sound if he was playing that fast through
an electric guitar with distortion :)
I *still* have the recording I made with my Sony Walkman... a little
ProTools... :)
The_Chris
Aug 9, 2014, 10:48:45 PM8/9/14
to
Les Cargill <lcarg...@comcast.com> wrote:
>
> style. I kinda like somebody throwing an Egyptian scale across odd-meter
> backing, but I can certainly see why you wouldn't.
>
However - and I DID read a lot about him back in the day... He would
>
> style. I kinda like somebody throwing an Egyptian scale across odd-meter
> backing, but I can certainly see why you wouldn't.
>
just take backing tracks from concerts and solo over them. It wasn't
that they were odd-meter - he would edit them that way - or - he would't
listen to what he was tracking to as he was tracking.
I experimented with that once on a solo I recorded. I marked when I had
to go in, and go out, and of course, knew what key to play in. The
passage didn't really have many changes.
When I was done, my solo sounded genius, because I wasn't tied to timing
or normal phrasing... To this day, I refer to that as my 'Zappa
Solo'.... it's not that hard if you do it like that.
I think he did that a lot - it just sounds like it to me.
You should try it... It will cop the Zappa feel much more than you'd
think.
Also - in that time frame (Sheik, Joes Garage, etc) remember, there was
a lot of competition from Van Halen.... THAT was the future then. Being
from California - he had to be aware...
The_Chris
Aug 9, 2014, 10:50:19 PM8/9/14
to
stratrat <nomail@_invalid_.gov> wrote:
>
> Don't know Zappa, but for me it's like classical music of which I like a
> total of maybe 1 piece: Pachelbel's canon in D. Too bad he burned
> everything! Most other classics remind me of gymnastics when I listen to
> them, music was entering a new era of discovery and too many were just
> strutting their prowess screamin 'look ma', up-and-down the scales at
> lightning speed, no hands even!". That's how I see it, luckily there
> was music then and today that's what music should be, the necessarily
> evocative language of the soul, and there was then and also is today
> what is just fucking noise.
>
>
>
So, if you don't know Zappa, and you can't see the talent of fast
>
> Don't know Zappa, but for me it's like classical music of which I like a
> total of maybe 1 piece: Pachelbel's canon in D. Too bad he burned
> everything! Most other classics remind me of gymnastics when I listen to
> them, music was entering a new era of discovery and too many were just
> strutting their prowess screamin 'look ma', up-and-down the scales at
> lightning speed, no hands even!". That's how I see it, luckily there
> was music then and today that's what music should be, the necessarily
> evocative language of the soul, and there was then and also is today
> what is just fucking noise.
>
>
>
players, who on earth do you like??
The_Chris
Aug 9, 2014, 10:52:26 PM8/9/14
to
Nil
Aug 9, 2014, 11:09:11 PM8/9/14
to
On 09 Aug 2014, "The_Chris" <TheC...@nospam.gmail.com> wrote in
alt.guitar:
> Agreed, but, I'd imagine the possiblities. I guess I always had a
> weird sense like that. Once, I saw Segovia perform at Carnegie
> Hall. I wondered how awesome he would sound if he was playing that
> fast through an electric guitar with distortion :)
And Segovia was not known as being particularly "fast". He was more
renowned for his sensitive phrasing and for transcribing a lot of music
originally written for other instruments for guitar.
If you want fast, raw, classical guitar, check out Elliot Fisk. His
playing is too mechanical for my taste, but his speed and technique is
impeccable and awesome.
alt.guitar:
> Agreed, but, I'd imagine the possiblities. I guess I always had a
> weird sense like that. Once, I saw Segovia perform at Carnegie
> Hall. I wondered how awesome he would sound if he was playing that
> fast through an electric guitar with distortion :)
renowned for his sensitive phrasing and for transcribing a lot of music
originally written for other instruments for guitar.
If you want fast, raw, classical guitar, check out Elliot Fisk. His
playing is too mechanical for my taste, but his speed and technique is
impeccable and awesome.
%
Aug 9, 2014, 11:31:59 PM8/9/14
to
%
Aug 9, 2014, 11:32:59 PM8/9/14
to
Les Cargill
Aug 9, 2014, 11:46:58 PM8/9/14
to
The_Chris wrote:
> Les Cargill <lcarg...@comcast.com> wrote:
>>
>> style. I kinda like somebody throwing an Egyptian scale across odd-meter
>> backing, but I can certainly see why you wouldn't.
>>
>
>
> However - and I DID read a lot about him back in the day... He would
> just take backing tracks from concerts and solo over them. It wasn't
> that they were odd-meter - he would edit them that way - or - he would't
> listen to what he was tracking to as he was tracking.
>
That's true. But he also captured most of the guitar solos live. That
> Les Cargill <lcarg...@comcast.com> wrote:
>>
>> style. I kinda like somebody throwing an Egyptian scale across odd-meter
>> backing, but I can certainly see why you wouldn't.
>>
>
>
> However - and I DID read a lot about him back in the day... He would
> just take backing tracks from concerts and solo over them. It wasn't
> that they were odd-meter - he would edit them that way - or - he would't
> listen to what he was tracking to as he was tracking.
>
all changed; the process shifted. This is part of what I mean by
"business model" - they started around the time of Sheik using The
Vault ( originally in the Tom Mix cabin/house ) as the repository from
which albums were compiled.
> I experimented with that once on a solo I recorded. I marked when I had
> to go in, and go out, and of course, knew what key to play in. The
> passage didn't really have many changes.
>
> When I was done, my solo sounded genius, because I wasn't tied to timing
> or normal phrasing... To this day, I refer to that as my 'Zappa
> Solo'.... it's not that hard if you do it like that.
>
Frank was very much grounded in the foot of the beat and in either the
key or a harmonic of the key. He rarely played with the kik drum,if
you'll notice.
I'd argue it's a lot aleatoric. but not completely.
You have to remember - the bands were working mostly off charts. When
the time was ripe, there were horn sections. Later, synths did a lot
of that. He started hiring "stunt guitarists".
I have "Does Humor Belong" on DVD and it's all quite overwrought. Tempos
are ridiculous.
> I think he did that a lot - it just sounds like it to me.
>
> You should try it... It will cop the Zappa feel much more than you'd
> think.
>
a few variations.
> Also - in that time frame (Sheik, Joes Garage, etc) remember, there was
> a lot of competition from Van Halen.... THAT was the future then.
guitar players, Van Halen was not appealing to Zappa's audience.
If anything, Dweez was competing with Eddie with bands like Z. You
have to realize that Eddie was not a serious influence on people
my age and older that didn't want to be chest-hair guitar players
( and most of the people I know didn't ).
Ed and company were just four-on-the-floor at the most. They were
brilliant about it, but it's basically the Beach Boys on crank (
and yeah they had the harmonies ). This being said, *Alex* and
Mike always blew me away. You could mix Mike *way* down and he sitll
had a commanding presence.
I found Ed off-putting past the first couple albums. But by then
I'd slid off into country, Neil Young, the Stones and that sort of
thing much more. I'd tried the VH style thing and found it wanting.
> Being
> from California - he had to be aware...
>
another guy that shouldn't use drugs".
--
Les Cargill
Flasherly
Aug 9, 2014, 11:38:57 PM8/9/14
to
On Sat, 09 Aug 2014 21:30:11 -0400, stratrat <nomail@_INVALID_.gov>
wrote:
> All I regret is that IF the rest of the flaming sheetmusic
>was anywhere near _D_ Canon in caliber then you and me and 8 billion
>also rans all lost and lost BIG.
I just play (read) because I can and it amuses me. Sometimes. Like a
film or a mood. A song. Sometimes it fills something in me, for
fluency and direction to take over;-other times it's more along a
struggle. Plus, there's transferences over time. Do it enough and
you just know, by listening, where the notes are and where they're
headed.
With the WWW and PDF distributions, the distinction is meaningless:
there's so much "historical/periodic" music and so many composers,
their scores, transpositions available. Sometimes I'm not even sure
exactly what I'm reading/playing, whether the scores are originally
lute, once played on some sort of extinct lyre, perhaps a violin.
Like I said, once I feel it it reads pretty much, for me, like
speaking. I know how to say what sounds right. No choice, other than
to please excuse me when the feelings becoming overwhelming and I
fumble and fall before them.
I try and keep large enough of a cache of them together for familiars
I know - large enough, though, just not to become too familiar;- other
times I stray, like tonight, into Segovia, where I just happened upon
a few new pieces. Even with his "estudios," he's always pushing the
edges, mostly out of the keys he's writing in coincident accidentals.
Sure a struggle to hear him, where he's leading.
And, sure, even if perfectimento would you expect other than "that's a
piece of shit" from someone untrained and unused to a composure,
broadly from music, that god might only like know how historically to
place. . .
wrote:
> All I regret is that IF the rest of the flaming sheetmusic
>was anywhere near _D_ Canon in caliber then you and me and 8 billion
>also rans all lost and lost BIG.
film or a mood. A song. Sometimes it fills something in me, for
fluency and direction to take over;-other times it's more along a
struggle. Plus, there's transferences over time. Do it enough and
you just know, by listening, where the notes are and where they're
headed.
With the WWW and PDF distributions, the distinction is meaningless:
there's so much "historical/periodic" music and so many composers,
their scores, transpositions available. Sometimes I'm not even sure
exactly what I'm reading/playing, whether the scores are originally
lute, once played on some sort of extinct lyre, perhaps a violin.
Like I said, once I feel it it reads pretty much, for me, like
speaking. I know how to say what sounds right. No choice, other than
to please excuse me when the feelings becoming overwhelming and I
fumble and fall before them.
I try and keep large enough of a cache of them together for familiars
I know - large enough, though, just not to become too familiar;- other
times I stray, like tonight, into Segovia, where I just happened upon
a few new pieces. Even with his "estudios," he's always pushing the
edges, mostly out of the keys he's writing in coincident accidentals.
Sure a struggle to hear him, where he's leading.
And, sure, even if perfectimento would you expect other than "that's a
piece of shit" from someone untrained and unused to a composure,
broadly from music, that god might only like know how historically to
place. . .
nm...@wt.net
Aug 9, 2014, 11:40:29 PM8/9/14
to
On Saturday, August 9, 2014 10:32:59 PM UTC-5, % wrote:
>
> >> FZ was the fastest and had the talent you talk about
>
> >
>
> > You have to be careful with FZ. I listened to this and almost
>
> > had a litter of kittens while mental tossing underneath a dental
>
> > floss bush. :|
>
> >
>
> > https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RMFI8G5w8ws
>
>
>
> you should hear what he does with yoko
She put in her $2.53 worth on that last one.. :+
>
> >> FZ was the fastest and had the talent you talk about
>
> >
>
> > You have to be careful with FZ. I listened to this and almost
>
> > had a litter of kittens while mental tossing underneath a dental
>
> > floss bush. :|
>
> >
>
> > https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RMFI8G5w8ws
>
>
>
> you should hear what he does with yoko
%
Aug 9, 2014, 11:56:41 PM8/9/14
to
oriental yodeling for 30 minutes
Les Cargill
Aug 10, 2014, 12:22:55 AM8/10/14
to
--
Les Cargill
%
Aug 10, 2014, 12:56:55 AM8/10/14
to
Flasherly
Aug 10, 2014, 11:53:54 AM8/10/14
to
On Sun, 10 Aug 2014 02:40:24 +0000 (UTC), "The_Chris"
<TheC...@nospam.gmail.com> wrote:
> I
>wondered how awesome he would sound if he was playing that fast through
>an electric guitar with distortion :)
Sorry. Segovia stood first among consequence to endorse nylon
<TheC...@nospam.gmail.com> wrote:
> I
>wondered how awesome he would sound if he was playing that fast through
>an electric guitar with distortion :)
strings. Just to imagine what horrifying animal screams are bound
formerly to a bloody litany of traditionalist trysts formed upon
playing from a supply from intestine of sheep and goat -- along with
cattle, hog, horse, mule, or donkey. I'm aghast. By modern accounts
of animal cruelty, as sheerly distorted no doubt as any illustration
provided us by Hieronymus Bosch.
Flasherly
Aug 10, 2014, 12:01:48 PM8/10/14
to
On Sat, 09 Aug 2014 23:09:11 -0400, Nil
<redn...@REMOVETHIScomcast.net> wrote:
>And Segovia was not known as being particularly "fast". He was more
>renowned for his sensitive phrasing and for transcribing a lot of music
>originally written for other instruments for guitar.
Definitely noticed Ponce before, Sophocles Papas somewhat (hope I'm
<redn...@REMOVETHIScomcast.net> wrote:
>And Segovia was not known as being particularly "fast". He was more
>renowned for his sensitive phrasing and for transcribing a lot of music
>originally written for other instruments for guitar.
not misidentifying Papas with another) - Sor, Tárrega, oh, hell yes -
(Bach to a lesser though not trivial extent, where Sor would be likely
one I picked up from modern circles, such as here - respective of
their forms and central interest, but of course) ... Could say Segovia
is probably why, although this is all as much new now, over many I'm
certain I'd have picked based on reading them for a symbiotic if at
best flowing melody line.
Segovia, as with Pachelbel -- well, despite a personal library of
classical music I've accumulated - dumbfounding in sheer magnitude,
nevertheless, historically speaking, music is a celestial
accomplishment;-- I've simply none of Pachelbel's works and (what I
feel) a parsimonious representation least worthy of Segovia.
"In 1926 Segovia's Guitar Archive Series (Schott) started publication
of classical transcriptions and pieces by composers such as Moreno
Torroba, Turina, Ponce, Castelnuovo-Tedesco and Tansman, who over the
years were inspired by his artistry to write many works for him."
non-wiki
Segovia was aware of flamenco during his formative years as a musician
but stated that he "did not have a taste" for the form and chose
instead the works of Sor, Tárrega and other classical composers. -wiki
"Segovia's impact on the progress and status of the guitar as a
recital instrument was immeasurable. He revitalized traditional
playing techniques and expanded the repertory by editing many
transcriptions and by his massive work in inspiring composers to write
new music for the instrument. Central to his mission were the
thousands of recitals that he gave between 1909 and 1987. His prolific
recordings (1927–77) reached the widest possible audience and were
received with great critical acclaim. His charisma and his teaching
encouraged new generations of players to strive to fulfil their
musical ambitions within the context of the guitar." -non wiki
It was in this changing milieu that Segovia, whose strength of
personality and artistry coupled with new technological advances such
as recording, radio, and air travel, succeeded in making the guitar
more popular again. -wiki
Segovia's repertoire consisted of three principal pillars. Firstly,
contemporary works [... -fl] Secondly, transcriptions, usually made by
Segovia himself of classical works originally written for other
instruments (e.g., lute, harpsichord, piano, violin, cello) [...]
Thirdly, traditional classical guitar works. . . Segovia's influence
enlarged the repertoire [...] to a far lesser extent as a composer.
Segovia was selective and only performed works with which he
identified personally. He was known to reject atonal works, or works
which he considered too radical . . .
HA! Atonal...cut some slack and give me a break!
The_Chris
Aug 10, 2014, 3:02:20 PM8/10/14
to
Les Cargill <lcarg...@comcast.com> wrote:
>
> That's true. But he also captured most of the guitar solos live. That
> all changed; the process shifted. This is part of what I mean by
> "business model" - they started around the time of Sheik using The
> Vault ( originally in the Tom Mix cabin/house ) as the repository from
> which albums were compiled.
>
Yes, you reminded me - he would peel his solos from concerts, and pop
>
> That's true. But he also captured most of the guitar solos live. That
> all changed; the process shifted. This is part of what I mean by
> "business model" - they started around the time of Sheik using The
> Vault ( originally in the Tom Mix cabin/house ) as the repository from
> which albums were compiled.
>
them on backing tracks - so - his phrasing sounded unique because it had
never really happened :)
>
> I'd say they were playing completely different games. Outside a'
> guitar players, Van Halen was not appealing to Zappa's audience.
>
attention to it... I know I heard a change in his playing on those
albums after '78...
> Ed and company were just four-on-the-floor at the most. They were
> brilliant about it, but it's basically the Beach Boys on crank (
> and yeah they had the harmonies ). This being said, *Alex* and
> Mike always blew me away. You could mix Mike *way* down and he sitll
> had a commanding presence.
>
four-on-the-floor. Maybe 'Running with the Devil' - but those were some
complex rhythms and counterpoints. I've mentioned it here. The reason a
lot of bands didn't copy VH was because it was prohibitive. The songs
are harder than they sound.. It's easy for guys to say that Eddie has no
feel... it's BS... They just can't play that well and think it's all
mechanical... It ain't... it's pure emotion...
Anyway... Zappa started using more bar and tapping in the late 70's I
thought.
nm...@wt.net
Aug 10, 2014, 9:58:15 PM8/10/14
to
On Sunday, August 10, 2014 2:02:20 PM UTC-5, The_Chris wrote:
> I've mentioned it here. The reason a
>
> lot of bands didn't copy VH was because it was prohibitive. The songs
>
> are harder than they sound.. It's easy for guys to say that Eddie has no
>
> feel... it's BS... They just can't play that well and think it's all
>
> mechanical... It ain't... it's pure emotion...
The Edward had a peculiar way of phrasing which stood him apart
> I've mentioned it here. The reason a
>
> lot of bands didn't copy VH was because it was prohibitive. The songs
>
> are harder than they sound.. It's easy for guys to say that Eddie has no
>
> feel... it's BS... They just can't play that well and think it's all
>
> mechanical... It ain't... it's pure emotion...
from many of the other L.A. geetar buoys. If you listen to him nekkid
with no band, some of his lines can almost border on the verge of being
"off" in a way, but sound right once the rest of the band is there.
And he often palm muted which gave him that chunky type sound, often when
playing chords, but also some lead lines.
I learned quite a few VH songs, but haven't played much of them lately..
Got kinda burned out on VH stuff after a while.
But name a song and give me a week, and I can pretty much sound
like him if I feel so compelled. :|
One example from about 8-10?? years ago.. I used to record them as I was
learning them so I could pick out mistakes better. I'm fairly close on
most of the stuff.. Even the descending run where the trem bar then drives
the run off a cliff to crash and burn. :+ Ouch..
I could probably fool drunks into believing I was the Edward, maybe on a
bad hair day *hic*, if they were blindfolded. lol..
You can tell which one is me. Just pick out the crappy tone geetar coming
from the center.. :/ You can hear me alone at the very end, along with
hum, which adds a crunchy texture and mojo I think. :+
http://home.comcast.net/~nm5k/Ednme2.mp3
Learning Jimi's studio Red House note for note was harder than that VH
dittie.. I thought.. And harder than Satch too. I've learned some Satch
songs pretty close in one day. With VH, it's chunka, chunka, chunk,
diddle, diddle, diddle for a solo, chunka, chunka, chunk.. the end..
Red House, most every line is different and took more effort to properly
etch into my brain pan.
>
> Anyway... Zappa started using more bar and tapping in the late 70's I
>
> thought.
at the time. I remember him mentioning it in interviews and such.
But he liked all the hawt rawd geetar buoys.. IE: Vai, etc..
nm...@wt.net
Aug 11, 2014, 8:43:41 AM8/11/14
to
On Sunday, August 10, 2014 8:58:15 PM UTC-5, nm...@wt.net wrote:
>
> The Edward had a peculiar way of phrasing which stood him apart
>
> from many of the other L.A. geetar buoys.
He also made some pretty good animal noises. Which is always
>
> The Edward had a peculiar way of phrasing which stood him apart
>
> from many of the other L.A. geetar buoys.
important if one wants to provoke the neighbors.
I stole his elephant. lol.. Do it with a 100w stack and they
will call animal control to locate the lost circus animal.
You start with the volume off, and then hit a series of harmonics,
and then you crank the volume in to mimic the critter.
Good wholesome fun for the whole family. :)
http://home.comcast.net/~disk200/elphant.mp3
The_Chris
Aug 11, 2014, 10:55:47 AM8/11/14
to
nm...@wt.net wrote:
>
> One example from about 8-10?? years ago.. I used to record them as I was
> learning them so I could pick out mistakes better. I'm fairly close on
> most of the stuff.. Even the descending run where the trem bar then drives
> the run off a cliff to crash and burn. :+ Ouch..
>
> I could probably fool drunks into believing I was the Edward, maybe on a
> bad hair day *hic*, if they were blindfolded. lol..
> You can tell which one is me. Just pick out the crappy tone geetar coming
> from the center.. :/ You can hear me alone at the very end, along with
> hum, which adds a crunchy texture and mojo I think. :+
>
> http://home.comcast.net/~nm5k/Ednme2.mp3
>
Questionable song choice... I guess when I talk about Eddie, I'm only
>
> One example from about 8-10?? years ago.. I used to record them as I was
> learning them so I could pick out mistakes better. I'm fairly close on
> most of the stuff.. Even the descending run where the trem bar then drives
> the run off a cliff to crash and burn. :+ Ouch..
>
> I could probably fool drunks into believing I was the Edward, maybe on a
> bad hair day *hic*, if they were blindfolded. lol..
> You can tell which one is me. Just pick out the crappy tone geetar coming
> from the center.. :/ You can hear me alone at the very end, along with
> hum, which adds a crunchy texture and mojo I think. :+
>
> http://home.comcast.net/~nm5k/Ednme2.mp3
>
talking about the Roth years... The songwriting changed with Sammy
considerably. That IS four-on-the-floor souless garbage...
However, your take on Runaround is really good... I've never
attempted...
As for Zappa... None of those guys you mentioned were famous or heard of
in the 70's... Vai - Satriani... He gave Vai his first platform.
nm...@wt.net
Aug 11, 2014, 8:18:49 PM8/11/14
to
On Monday, August 11, 2014 9:55:47 AM UTC-5, The_Chris wrote:
> nm...@wt.net wrote:
>
> >
>
> > One example from about 8-10?? years ago.. I used to record them as I was
>
> > learning them so I could pick out mistakes better. I'm fairly close on
>
> > most of the stuff.. Even the descending run where the trem bar then drives
>
> > the run off a cliff to crash and burn. :+ Ouch..
>
> >
>
> > I could probably fool drunks into believing I was the Edward, maybe on a
>
> > bad hair day *hic*, if they were blindfolded. lol..
>
> > You can tell which one is me. Just pick out the crappy tone geetar coming
>
> > from the center.. :/ You can hear me alone at the very end, along with
>
> > hum, which adds a crunchy texture and mojo I think. :+
>
> >
>
> > http://home.comcast.net/~nm5k/Ednme2.mp3
>
> >
>
> Questionable song choice... I guess when I talk about Eddie, I'm only
>
> talking about the Roth years... The songwriting changed with Sammy
>
> considerably. That IS four-on-the-floor souless garbage...
Nawt to me. I like both periods.. Different, but both are good.
> nm...@wt.net wrote:
>
> >
>
> > One example from about 8-10?? years ago.. I used to record them as I was
>
> > learning them so I could pick out mistakes better. I'm fairly close on
>
> > most of the stuff.. Even the descending run where the trem bar then drives
>
> > the run off a cliff to crash and burn. :+ Ouch..
>
> >
>
> > I could probably fool drunks into believing I was the Edward, maybe on a
>
> > bad hair day *hic*, if they were blindfolded. lol..
>
> > You can tell which one is me. Just pick out the crappy tone geetar coming
>
> > from the center.. :/ You can hear me alone at the very end, along with
>
> > hum, which adds a crunchy texture and mojo I think. :+
>
> >
>
> > http://home.comcast.net/~nm5k/Ednme2.mp3
>
> >
>
> Questionable song choice... I guess when I talk about Eddie, I'm only
>
> talking about the Roth years... The songwriting changed with Sammy
>
> considerably. That IS four-on-the-floor souless garbage...
And I play songs from both periods.
>
> As for Zappa... None of those guys you mentioned were famous or heard of
>
> in the 70's... Vai - Satriani... He gave Vai his first platform.
Sure. But it was in the early 80's when Zappa would talk about
> As for Zappa... None of those guys you mentioned were famous or heard of
>
> in the 70's... Vai - Satriani... He gave Vai his first platform.
the Edward. I didn't even realize Vai played with Zappa until much
later after the fact. Course, he was pretty much a nobody in the Zappa
period, so not much reason for me to..
%
Aug 11, 2014, 8:27:46 PM8/11/14
to
Les Cargill
Aug 11, 2014, 9:29:40 PM8/11/14
to
The_Chris wrote:
> Les Cargill <lcarg...@comcast.com> wrote:
>>
>> That's true. But he also captured most of the guitar solos live. That
>> all changed; the process shifted. This is part of what I mean by
>> "business model" - they started around the time of Sheik using The
>> Vault ( originally in the Tom Mix cabin/house ) as the repository from
>> which albums were compiled.
>>
> Yes, you reminded me - he would peel his solos from concerts, and pop
> them on backing tracks - so - his phrasing sounded unique because it had
> never really happened :)
>
I think the process varied. he had the conceit - although I'm kinda
> Les Cargill <lcarg...@comcast.com> wrote:
>>
>> That's true. But he also captured most of the guitar solos live. That
>> all changed; the process shifted. This is part of what I mean by
>> "business model" - they started around the time of Sheik using The
>> Vault ( originally in the Tom Mix cabin/house ) as the repository from
>> which albums were compiled.
>>
> Yes, you reminded me - he would peel his solos from concerts, and pop
> them on backing tracks - so - his phrasing sounded unique because it had
> never really happened :)
>
loath to call it that, really - that he was "composing" at the fretboard.
There are interviews, the RFFZ, yadda yadda.
>>
>> I'd say they were playing completely different games. Outside a'
>> guitar players, Van Halen was not appealing to Zappa's audience.
>>
> As you said, it definitely influence Dweez... So, Zappa had to pay some
> attention to it... I know I heard a change in his playing on those
> albums after '78...
>
the use of the Vault.
>
>> Ed and company were just four-on-the-floor at the most. They were
>> brilliant about it, but it's basically the Beach Boys on crank (
>> and yeah they had the harmonies ). This being said, *Alex* and
>> Mike always blew me away. You could mix Mike *way* down and he sitll
>> had a commanding presence.
>>
> I think that's a misconception with VH - the music WASN'T
> four-on-the-floor. Maybe 'Running with the Devil' - but those were some
> complex rhythms and counterpoints.
pull. I just mean it wasn't polyrythms and they knew where the fatback
was when it was time to go in for the kill.
Take "Jump" - the bridge for that is absolutely great, and they all
three take liberties with note placement on those triplets to bring in
that sweep at the end to a point. It's just a great, great band.
And "Running" is one of their harder songs. *Everybody* has serious
phrasing to address in that one, not just the the guitar. When it goes
to the bridglet, everybody has to switch sides on where they were on
the beat - bass goes from pushing to pulling, the hat stays straight
up, the snare ritards immensely...
It's like three guys with one brain.
> I've mentioned it here. The reason a
> lot of bands didn't copy VH was because it was prohibitive.
too. You couldn't do it without a monster drummer, tho. I was playing
bass; a buddy was playing guitar.
It didn't sell. If the frontman hadn't been flaky, we might have stayed
with it. We had the harmonies, the whole schmeer. But when it comes
down to it, the crowds just didn't like it.
It was just no fun at all. And where do you go from there? I had more
fun playing Ernest Tubb and Elvis.
> The songs
> are harder than they sound.. It's easy for guys to say that Eddie has no
> feel... it's BS...
them at all. *You* get all the tempos right on "Hot For Teacher"
before the vox comes in. It's anarchy, anarchy I tells ya.
> They just can't play that well and think it's all
> mechanical... It ain't... it's pure emotion...
>
of the people who tried to be Ed later on.
> Anyway... Zappa started using more bar and tapping in the late 70's I
> thought.
>
>
He switched to the Hendrix Strat with the peizo about then. Sheik has a
bunch of stuff that's clearly a Strat.
--
Les Cargill
nm...@wt.net
Aug 11, 2014, 11:47:44 PM8/11/14
to
On Monday, August 11, 2014 8:29:40 PM UTC-5, Les Cargill wrote:
> > I've mentioned it here. The reason a
>
> > lot of bands didn't copy VH was because it was prohibitive.
>
>
>
> Well... *I* did, and it didn't go anywhere. We spent six months on it,
>
> too. You couldn't do it without a monster drummer, tho. I was playing
>
> bass; a buddy was playing guitar.
>
>
>
> It didn't sell. If the frontman hadn't been flaky, we might have stayed
>
> with it. We had the harmonies, the whole schmeer. But when it comes
>
> down to it, the crowds just didn't like it.
Were you doing VH only like in a tribute band? That would generally
> > I've mentioned it here. The reason a
>
> > lot of bands didn't copy VH was because it was prohibitive.
>
>
>
> Well... *I* did, and it didn't go anywhere. We spent six months on it,
>
> too. You couldn't do it without a monster drummer, tho. I was playing
>
> bass; a buddy was playing guitar.
>
>
>
> It didn't sell. If the frontman hadn't been flaky, we might have stayed
>
> with it. We had the harmonies, the whole schmeer. But when it comes
>
> down to it, the crowds just didn't like it.
be the kiss of death for many in the crowds..
I know myself, I would never try to do only one band as far as covers.
I'd be jumping from VH to ZZ to Satch to Thin Lizzy to Bad Co to Free
to BOC to... well you get the general image..
Only if I were playing myself in the movie, would I do only one band.
For many in the crowd, they will judge a tribute type band a lot
harsher than a general cover band. And many don't want to hear the
same band the whole night. You have to be one brave sumbeech to be
in a tribute band. It's a hard life, not for the faint of heart.
Les Cargill
Aug 12, 2014, 9:48:19 PM8/12/14
to
nm...@wt.net wrote:
> On Monday, August 11, 2014 8:29:40 PM UTC-5, Les Cargill wrote:
>
>>> I've mentioned it here. The reason a
>>
>>> lot of bands didn't copy VH was because it was prohibitive.
>>
>>
>>
>> Well... *I* did, and it didn't go anywhere. We spent six months on it,
>>
>> too. You couldn't do it without a monster drummer, tho. I was playing
>>
>> bass; a buddy was playing guitar.
>>
>>
>>
>> It didn't sell. If the frontman hadn't been flaky, we might have stayed
>>
>> with it. We had the harmonies, the whole schmeer. But when it comes
>>
>> down to it, the crowds just didn't like it.
>
> Were you doing VH only like in a tribute band?
Nah, generic cover band with a half dozen VH songs, but it was
> On Monday, August 11, 2014 8:29:40 PM UTC-5, Les Cargill wrote:
>
>>> I've mentioned it here. The reason a
>>
>>> lot of bands didn't copy VH was because it was prohibitive.
>>
>>
>>
>> Well... *I* did, and it didn't go anywhere. We spent six months on it,
>>
>> too. You couldn't do it without a monster drummer, tho. I was playing
>>
>> bass; a buddy was playing guitar.
>>
>>
>>
>> It didn't sell. If the frontman hadn't been flaky, we might have stayed
>>
>> with it. We had the harmonies, the whole schmeer. But when it comes
>>
>> down to it, the crowds just didn't like it.
>
> Were you doing VH only like in a tribute band?
all WRawk stuff ( as close as you could get for 1980 anyway ).
> That would generally
> be the kiss of death for many in the crowds..
> I know myself, I would never try to do only one band as far as covers.
> I'd be jumping from VH to ZZ to Satch to Thin Lizzy to Bad Co to Free
> to BOC to... well you get the general image..
>
> Only if I were playing myself in the movie, would I do only one band.
> For many in the crowd, they will judge a tribute type band a lot
> harsher than a general cover band. And many don't want to hear the
> same band the whole night. You have to be one brave sumbeech to be
> in a tribute band. It's a hard life, not for the faint of heart.
>
worked out great for them.
<snip>
--
Les Cargill
roym...@googlemail.com
Jul 13, 2017, 4:10:43 PM7/13/17
to
I know him and went to school with him and yeah he could play that fast
lclar...@gmail.com
Dec 18, 2017, 4:32:29 PM12/18/17
to
He is my uncle he is class but dont like him fking garry clarke he called
lisapin...@googlemail.com
Apr 10, 2018, 8:33:15 PM4/10/18
to
LOL i do...i dated him in 1990 when i was 17...he really did play that fast!
Pudentame
Apr 16, 2018, 8:04:07 PM4/16/18
to
On Tue, 10 Apr 2018 17:33:13 -0700 (PDT),
lisapin...@googlemail.com wrote:
>LOL i do...i dated him in 1990 when i was 17...he really did play that fast!
Could he play the minute waltz in 45 seconds?
lisapin...@googlemail.com wrote:
>LOL i do...i dated him in 1990 when i was 17...he really did play that fast!
David Featherstone
Aug 16, 2020, 6:46:29 PM8/16/20
to
%
Aug 16, 2020, 6:58:04 PM8/16/20
to
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