Gibson Tar Back Pickup

[jh]

I've got the old ES335 of a frined of mine on the bench.

A wonderful guitar - but the neck pickup is open.

It's a late 70ties ES335 with coil tap and the epoxied tar backs. Is
there any way to "repair" the pickup?

If not - what comes close?

BTW: The bridge pickup reads about 7.5k. It is said, that the "black
tars" have ceramic magnets and differ sonically from a standard PAF.

Due to the fact that this beutiful lady is a b@'%tch do assemble and
dissasemble - I'd be happy to fix it in one shot ;-)

TIA

regards

Jochen

[LULU]

=====================================

"Tar Backs" are Gibson Series VII pickups. The covers are nearly impossible to remove without doing some kind of damage. Putting them in the freezer for a while can "facilitate" cover removal. Kind of boomy or bass-y IIRC. I've seen them factory installed in ES-335's, Explorers, SG's and Les Paul 25/50's.

Info that I had on file. Not sure of accuracy.

Gibson tar back specifications:

Inductance 4.7 Henries
Resonant Peak 5.8 Khz
DC resistance 7.8 K ohms (at 1000 cps)
Impedance - High
Two Active upper coils
One Ceramic Magnet (indox 7)
Adjustable pole pieces
Removable pickup cover
2 point height adjustment

I think that they are quite similar to Bill Lawrence "Super Humbuckers".

http://www.musiker-board.de/pickups-wiring-e-git/442533-gibson-super-humbuckers-designed-bill-lawrence.html

Good Luck,
Lulu : )

======================================

[jh]

thanks LULU

the pickups are very similar to the "Lawrence Super Humbucker" - except
here is the second lead to ground the junction of the coils.

My intention was to find a replacement pickup, that matches the bridge.
At the moment she is disassembled. I can't listen to it.
Perhaps I'll try it with a generic one - just to "hear" it. Assembly of
an ES is not funny.

thanks

Jochen

[LULU]

On Monday, December 2, 2013 11:03:36 AM UTC-7, jh wrote:

>Assembly of an ES is not funny.
>
>
> thanks
>
> Jochen

===================================

It usually involves a lot of "fishing and wishing".

Patience . . .
Lulu ; )

A ball of string, a Sharpie marker and a couple snapshots taken as you disassemble are your friends . . .

Basic stuff that you probably already know, but nice to see how someone else wires a 335 . . .

http://www.musicradar.com/tuition/guitars/how-to-change-the-pickups-on-a-gibson-es-335-style-guitar-364062#!1

==================================

[jh]

;-)

LULU, of cours I hooked them up, so I can tear them back in the right
hole...

Still ont funny. BTW - no way to get the Vol pot through the F-Hole. You
have to go through the cavity of the bridge Pickup. Fortunately there is
enough clearance...

Jochen

[Bruce Morgen]

LULU <lulupa...@yahoo.com> wrote:

>On Monday, December 2, 2013 8:10:28 AM UTC-7, jh wrote:
>> I've got the old ES335 of a frined of mine on the bench.
>>
>>
>>
>> A wonderful guitar - but the neck pickup is open.
>>
>>
>>
>> It's a late 70ties ES335 with coil tap and the epoxied tar backs. Is
>>
>> there any way to "repair" the pickup?
>

[snip]

>
>Info that I had on file. Not sure of accuracy.
>
>Gibson tar back specifications:
>
>Inductance 4.7 Henries
>Resonant Peak 5.8 Khz
>DC resistance 7.8 K ohms (at 1000 cps)

This specification makes no
sense -- by definition, "DC
resistance is measured at
*zero* "cps (today we would
use "Hz"). Re (electrical
resistance at a particular
frequency) is a different
measurement taken with a
different instrument --
usually an LCR bridge
rather than the simple DC
ohms function of a
multimeter.

>Impedance - High
>Two Active upper coils
>One Ceramic Magnet (indox 7)
>Adjustable pole pieces
>Removable pickup cover

"Removable" -- really ? That
reminds me of the military
definition of "portable":
"readily movable by an
infantry squad or fewer
personnel."

>2 point height adjustment
>
>I think that they are quite similar to Bill Lawrence "Super Humbuckers".

AFAIK the only Gibson model
equipped with Super Humbuckers
was the L-6S -- those pickups
had non-adjustable pole pieces
and no holes in the cover.
Whether Gibson attempted their
own variants on Bill's design
after he left the company is
something I don't know, but I
guess that's a possibility.

NNB

[jh]

Bruce

tell that to th 70ties Company called Gibson and their advisor Willhelm
Lorenz Stich ;-)

It's from their official advertising.... I had seen that before LULU had
posted it.

De Facto - the Bridge PU in this particular ES335 measures 7.5kOhm DC
Resistance.

>> Impedance - High
>> Two Active upper coils
>> One Ceramic Magnet (indox 7)
>> Adjustable pole pieces
>> Removable pickup cover
>
> "Removable" -- really ? That
> reminds me of the military
> definition of "portable":
> "readily movable by an
> infantry squad or fewer
> personnel."
>
>> 2 point height adjustment
>>
>> I think that they are quite similar to Bill Lawrence "Super Humbuckers".
>
> AFAIK the only Gibson model
> equipped with Super Humbuckers
> was the L-6S -- those pickups
> had non-adjustable pole pieces
> and no holes in the cover.
> Whether Gibson attempted their
> own variants on Bill's design
> after he left the company is
> something I don't know, but I
> guess that's a possibility.
>

I don't know when he exactly left Gibson. But there were a lot of
pickups sharing the same "construction" - including the potting in
epoxy. They were fitted to SGs, ES335, Vs and Ex... Some of them even
had adjustable Pole pieces.

For me at the moment - I can't see what kind of magnet s in there and
until i reassemble her - I can't even test an alternatve PU to see where
I am. So I hoped that someone knows the perfect substitute...

regards

Jochen

[Bruce Morgen]

Believe me, Bill (R.I.P.) was
not consulted when it came to
marketing copy -- in fact, it
was Bill who personally
schooled me on the many
different specifications that
can be stated in "ohms." :-)

>
>De Facto - the Bridge PU in this particular ES335 measures 7.5kOhm DC
>Resistance.
>

Yeah -- Bill told me that
Gibson didn't even have an LCR
bridge at the Kalamazoo plant,
everything was measured with
old-fashioned Simpson analog
VOMs back in the day.

Yeah, they learned that method of
construction (and much else that
persists at Gibson to this very
day) from Bill. The modern
rendition of the Super Humbucker
in the neck spot of my Tele is
filled with translucent resin, so
the innards are quite visible --
the housing is plastic and there
are holes so the tops of the pole
pieces show. They appear to be
hardened (stainless?) steel
dowels and they don't have screws.

>
>For me at the moment - I can't see what kind of magnet s in there and
>until i reassemble her - I can't even test an alternatve PU to see where
>I am. So I hoped that someone knows the perfect substitute...
>

I'm sure one of the better
custom pickup shops could
reverse engineer it and build
something close to a "perfect
subtitute" for you -- but the
cost would be steep and the
original might not survive
being dissected for the
research involved.

>regards
>
>Jochen
>
Right back atcha -- Bruce

NNB

[jh]

+

Hi Bruce,

I think I'll take the opposite direction.

First - I'll try how the remaining pickup matches to a standard PAF of
an old Tokai

Then - I'll try to get some ceramics and fit them to an old T-Top.

Nevertheless - if someone's already been down that road - any hint is
appreciated ;-)

regards

Jochen

[LULU]

=======================================

There's quite a bit of variance in Norlin-era components. I don't pretend to be an expert. I just know what I've seen and heard. Some of the "Super Humbuckers" had polepieces and some didn't. Terminology and "naming" of pickups seems to be somewhat random as well. Some literature refers to "Super Humbuckers" and "Series VII" pickup as the same thing and other brochures refer to the pickups as being "distinctly" different. Les Paul Artisans were available in a three pickup configuration. Bridge and Neck are listed as Series VII and the Middle is referred to as a Super Humbucker. Some Super Humbuckers are called "Dirty Fingers". There are two and four wire versions. AFAIK "tar backs" have ceramic magnets. Once you get into the Tim Shaw era at Gibson, a lot of info is up for grabs.

Lulu : )

========================================

[Flasherly]

On Mon, 02 Dec 2013 16:10:28 +0100, jh <us...@domain.invalid> wrote:

>I've got the old ES335 of a frined of mine on the bench.
>
>A wonderful guitar - but the neck pickup is open.
>
>It's a late 70ties ES335 with coil tap and the epoxied tar backs. Is
>there any way to "repair" the pickup?

Lost an original tele's bridge PU, which also opened up. Probably in
part from pounding on the body for an intermittent capacity to regain
a closed state and normal operation. Once upon a sad time.

Apart from a meter and determination what can be probably said of
certainty, I'd think, there's a 99.9% leeway, give or take, that the
weakest link of the PU wind wiring is going to be outside the bulk of
any actual magnetic core wind. . .I'd personally want a x50
stereoscopic platform, well-lit, appropriate tools for writing Zen
prose on rice kernels, as such, along with the world's smallest known
soldering iron to repair broken or oxidized PU wiring continuity. In
practice, I suppose, it would be a matter of dissolving sufficient
amounts of tar to access a valid stretch of wiring continuity, as
appropriate for a stretch on a quick fix to twist on new wire stock
section, to the old, then blend and insulate with new adhesive mated
to the original potting, and re-anchor the result to the original PU
plate. No less fun, no doubt, than determining average impedance
ratios to a neck/bridge, if altogether left for an unknown, to rewire
and pot, before possibly re-galvanizing the PU's magnetic fields with
rare earth magnetic blocks for a suitable, restorative MF match.

(Reading where Andy of The Police was riding in the NYC underground
transit, believe it was, while carrying his strat, whereupon it then
mysteriously lost something of an exactitude he'd of course demand at
that performance level. Subsequently given to a suitable guitar
technician, the prognosis was one of powerful transit magnetic relay
stations for driving the NYC trains, he'd at some point passed one
capable of sucking out the mojo from his emaciated PU. Blocks of rare
earth magnets subject for a fix to his strat are strong enough at
their polar attractions to break bones should one block be in
proximity to another at opposite extremes of the hand.)

[jh]

...the "tar" is black epoxy in reality.... where did i put this
f?+#@##ing reciepe how to dissolve hardened epoxy?

[Flasherly]

On Tue, 03 Dec 2013 20:39:18 +0100, jh <us...@domain.invalid> wrote:

>...the "tar" is black epoxy in reality.... where did i put this
>f?+#@##ing reciepe how to dissolve hardened epoxy?

Ah, had it filed under my old broken tele bridge PU, in a metal tin
somewhere, probably alongside hardened green plantains double-fried...


http://www.smokstak.com/forum/showthread.php?t=22619

http://wiki.answers.com/Q/How_do_you_dissolve_epoxy_glue

https://startpage.com/do/search?cmd=process_search&cat=web&query=dissolving+epoxy&language=english&no_sugg=1&ff=&abp=-1

[Bruce Morgen]

90+ percent of open circuit
pickup failures occur at the
transition connection between
magnet wire and stranded lead
wire -- pretty much any other
open-circuit flaw requires a
full rewind.

>(Reading where Andy of The Police was riding in the NYC underground
>transit, believe it was, while carrying his strat, whereupon it then
>mysteriously lost something of an exactitude he'd of course demand at
>that performance level. Subsequently given to a suitable guitar
>technician, the prognosis was one of powerful transit magnetic relay
>stations for driving the NYC trains, he'd at some point passed one
>capable of sucking out the mojo from his emaciated PU. Blocks of rare
>earth magnets subject for a fix to his strat are strong enough at
>their polar attractions to break bones should one block be in
>proximity to another at opposite extremes of the hand.)

Urban legend, AKA boo|sh|t --
there isn't enough magnetism
anywhere a passenger can
rightly be in the NYC subway
system to affect the alnico
slug magnets in a Fender-
style single-coil guitar
pickup. Yes, handling rare
earth magnets is difficult
and marginally dangerous --
the only reason the
neodymium-based Lawrence
"MicroCoil" pickups can be
assembled safely (and
productively enough to sell
at a sensible price) is the
special assembly tooling Bill
designed for the job, which
he dubbed "The Million Dollar
Fixture." :-)

[jh]

thank you for the hints and the links...

Perhaps I'll try som eof them in the future...


The only thing that intrigues me - If I should succeed to resolve the
epoxy - I doubt that anythng of the insulation of the coils would
survive the procedure =:o

Thus - first I will try to "recreate" the old PU. Anything else - afterwards

Coils of a PAF combined with ceramic magnets - any opinions?

regards

Jochen

[jh]

did

[jh]

please... ignore

[It's that Guy again...]

On Tue, 03 Dec 2013 15:38:57 -0500, Bruce Morgen <edi...@juno.com>
wrote:

>90+ percent of open circuit
>pickup failures occur at the
>transition connection between
>magnet wire and stranded lead
>wire -- pretty much any other
>open-circuit flaw requires a
>full rewind.

Yes, da world is still turning, but I agree with him..

Remember the EVH bridge PU, that was to of been
cut "..here and there.." in the coil..? I've held that
icon in my hand. It had what looked like windings
under the tape sticking out. No way would of it 'worked',
we found it was just a worn out pu that, somehow, had
a few one end windings '..melted..' and somehow, the
connection went on. I will guess that happens in the
middle of the coil, but the odds.. Sorry, EVH was a fluke..

>Urban legend, AKA boo|sh|t --
>there isn't enough magnetism
>anywhere a passenger can
>rightly be in the NYC subway
>system to affect the alnico
>slug magnets in a Fender-
>style single-coil guitar
>pickup.

Ditto, unless he was a passenger (or his guitar was)
under the chassis, with copper grnd up da arse. No way.

>..Yes, handling rare

>earth magnets is difficult
>and marginally dangerous --
>the only reason the
>neodymium-based Lawrence
>"MicroCoil" pickups can be
>assembled safely (and
>productively enough to sell
>at a sensible price) is the
>special assembly tooling Bill
>designed for the job, which
>he dubbed "The Million Dollar
>Fixture." :-)

Fuck the mojo, play the gig.

Best 1 pu guitar I own is a fact made LP
dc jr, yellow, with a slug pu. They had a
few of the neck LP Custom pu's that ARE
too hot in the bridge, yet made a few jrs..

VERY early Deluxe's had these pus..never held one.

Ya lower them down as low as the poles
can go, maybe up the G. It has a bound
neck. 9/10 with case. It does one thing,
and it does it very..very..very well..

That LPjr into a 4-12 Uk amp..well..u know..

I've rented it out (no longer) for 3x what I paid for it..

..anyway..sometimes the wrong magnet works the
best for the sound. Gibson still makes this pu
in a drop in style, except for dept, but if ya building
new.. I also think someone did do a VERY good
repro of it, and as too often in the past, may be now
supplying Gibson with the needs they have in 2014.

JJTj




I said..Hey Hey baby
let me ride in yer car machine..
I said..Hey Hey baby
let me ride in yer car machine..
I said you got a good carburetor..
But hey, you running bad gasoline..

I said look it baby
you can't drive no more at night
you got a crack in ya cylinder head
..and a short is in ya lights

I said..Hey Hey baby
let me ride in yer car machine..
I said you got a good carburetor..
Hey, you running bad gasoline..

I said..face it baby..
you know it's time to go.
I won't write you no letter gal..
IF you drive real slow.

I said..Hey Hey baby
let me ride in yer car machine..
I said you got a good carburetor..
Hey, you running bad gasoline..

You know, I hate to see it, baby..
..that evening sun go down.
Ain't it awesome lonesome..
..yeah, you going around..

I said..Hey Hey baby
let me ride in yer car machine..
I said you got a good carburetor..
Hey, you running bad gasoline..

[lucky...@hotmail.com]

I use dental floss. Stronger and easier to pull than string.

[Flasherly]

On Tue, 03 Dec 2013 21:41:31 +0100, jh <us...@domain.invalid> wrote:

>The only thing that intrigues me - If I should succeed to resolve the
>epoxy - I doubt that anythng of the insulation of the coils would
>survive the procedure =:o

I'd on hindsight start where Bruce mentions... "90+ percent of open

circuit pickup failures occur at the transition connection between

magnet wire and stranded lead wire..."

Off really any working section of winding continuity of wire nearest
and exposed within that transition connection. Beyond which, looking
for continuity off lead purchase regained out of that tar pot from
applied dissolving compounds, is likely to be a very localized hope
that in removing, washing off a section of pot material, enough to
free a last end-wind leg for further work, the etching process won't
have gotten through to a portion of winding veneer beneath, again as
you say. (Needless, of course, to assemble a makeshift jig for a
nicely slowed VSR drill prior, for holding the PU in the drill's
collet, alongside a spool a new stock PU wire, in a remote contingency
working with volatile chemicals damages necessitates a full if not
partial rewind.)

A 1930, Japanese invented process, so called ceramics are chemically
derived from ferric iron oxides combined with suitable amalgamates for
the pseudo, though brittle and nonconductive, ceramic namesake.

What goes round and round a cat's hairball, AKA in a manner of
speaking, options appear pretty much localized to limits within a
physics gridwork of rules governing molecular bonding valences and
radicals to crystalline structures;- Or at some points therein, where
an aesthetic of sound resonate to hardtack. Among all my metal
pickups, of late, I'm surprised how very few I actually do like.

[Flasherly]

On Tue, 03 Dec 2013 15:38:57 -0500, Bruce Morgen <edi...@juno.com>
wrote:

>Urban legend, AKA boo|sh|t --
>there isn't enough magnetism
>anywhere a passenger can
>rightly be in the NYC subway
>system to affect the alnico
>slug magnets in a Fender-
>style single-coil guitar
>pickup.

I've acquired a little collection of various sized, some strength
rated, neodymium magnets since reading up on options when my G-string
magnet, on a bridge tele (Seymour Duncan make), appeared weak, largely
dead in the water to my ear. One among anecdotes, another
home-tinkered type I read, which is that in applying the strong(er)
neomag to a weak ferrous-iron induced magnet, as magnetic flux between
the two can be transferred during a course of time, the reverse holds
true, in that opposite polarity so applied will similarly weaken, or
consequently then facilitate "tuning" the weaker iron, PU's magnets
within allowance and provision given the neodymium stock. In any
event, and I only took all that as far as to bring back my G-string's
magnet, which did show marked improvement. (I've a mini- dual-rail
tele humbucker in there now. Someday I'd like to listen to a Bill
Lawrence make.)

[jh]

...too much hassle.

There is no way to even get the cover off...
The pickup is completely sealed. I'll take the route and experiment
with a selfwind and ceramic magnets.

BTW - there IS a diffeence between a simple alnioco and a ceramic.

DC Resistance of the remaining coil of the Neck pickup is 5k. My simple
inductance meter reads about .9 H

Thanks for all the help
regards

Jochen

[jh]

Am 03.12.2013 21:38, schrieb Bruce Morgen:

> 90+ percent of open circuit
> pickup failures occur at the
> transition connection between
> magnet wire and stranded lead
> wire -- pretty much any other
> open-circuit flaw requires a
> full rewind.

Thanks Bruce,

with any other Pickup i've seen yet - that would be no problem. But this
f@##!ing thing s completely potted. You can't get to the junction.

I've reassembled my old T-Top yesterday - will order a few ceramic
magnets and check.

Do get down to the lower impedance of the neck (~5K) I'l have to wind
two new coils anyway. Anyone knows the AWG-size of the old tar backs?

regards

Jochen

[LULU]

========================================

Jochen

Try this website and contact (IIRC) Jim Anderson. I remember speaking with or emailing All Good Guitars once and for some reason part of the conversation went something along the lines of "about 25% of the guitars that we buy that have tar back pickups have either weak or open coils". We were discussing something else, but I remember that statement. They might have some insights or knowledge about the 'Gibby Brick' that will be of use to you.

Good Luck,
Lulu : )

http://allgoodguitars.com/

========================================

[Flasherly]

On Wed, 04 Dec 2013 09:42:34 +0100, jh <us...@domain.invalid> wrote:

>There is no way to even get the cover off...
>The pickup is completely sealed. I'll take the route and experiment
>with a selfwind and ceramic magnets.
>
>BTW - there IS a diffeence between a simple alnioco and a ceramic.
>
>DC Resistance of the remaining coil of the Neck pickup is 5k. My simple
>inductance meter reads about .9 H

Borrow my Weller 115V, 150-200W soldering gun. Found it in a pawn
shop with its 2 litebulbs intermittent. All transformer, though, and
honks. Weller doubles it in for a plumber's fixture aide. Don't have
the flat-tip for it, but might be able to hammer one out with a
mallet. ...Or, got some cold steel chisels and a 100lb. vise we can
put in before heating up the chisels with oxygen-acetylene tanks. Run
red hot chisel tips alongside and the potting should drop right out.

Sure, I'd imagine characteristically as different, AlNiCo to less-of,
ceramic ferrous, as to in their own right a few neodymium PU brands
floating around.

Unless that guitar has potential, say $2000 worth of conservative
low-end, probably better doing a little study along liklihoods, tonal
desireability the instrument commands, applied on an aftermarket
replacement. (I'll save us a couple shots of 200-proof rum for the
next one up.)