Reversing a RWRP Middle pickup (with the “South” pole on the top of the pickup)
Ludwig77
of the 60 cycle hum of my single-coil pickups:
http://www.suhrguitars.com/pickups.aspx#bpssc
However, the manual says that if my Strat has a RWRP Middle pickup
(with the “South” pole
on the top of the pickup) installed, that the pickup will have to be
replaced.
My Strat falls into this category, but why couldn't I simply reverse
the pickup in the cavity so that the "South" pole is at the bottom of
the pickup?
Claude V. Lucas
RWRP = Reverse Wound Reverse Polarity.
Flipping it would reverse the magnetic polarity, but it still would be wound
in the wrong direction for the BPSSC to work...
Patrick Keenan
The answer to this will be clear when you look at the pickup.
The bottom of the coil form is the pickup mounting support and the coil
lead attachment. And, the magnets are an integral part of the coil
form structure, so you can't push them out and flip them.
In addition, turning the pickup over won't reverse the winding
direction, you'll have to turn it inside out to get that. That's what
the RW means in the RW/RP, and what makes the combination humbucking.
You can get a very long way using copper foil to shield the cavity and
the bobbins without having to lose that pickup. You just have to be
sure that all the bits are actually grounded.
Some explanations and descriptions are here:
http://www.guitarnuts.com/wiring/index.php
HTH
-pk
Tony Done
"Patrick Keenan" <te...@dev.null> wrote in message
news:C6ednUIFi8P57aHU...@supernews.com...
As you say, the design of the pickup means that you can't just flip it over.
However, you can "unreverse" the winding simply by connecting it the other
way round, eg "hot to clockwise" if it is currently "hot to anticlockwise",
looking from the top. I have never read anywhere that this has any effect on
tone, as compared with genuine reverse wound. If you unreverse the winding
without flipping the alnico slugs, you end up with out of phase. I have
made, or unmade, RWRP pickups with plastic bobbins by reversing both the
connections *and* the alnico slugs, but, again as you say, this can't be
done on a fibre endplate pickup.
Tony D
RS
You could try just swapping the two wires from the Strat pickup so
ground becomes the hot lead and vice versa. But many Strat-type
pickups were wound so the the ground wire was in close contact with
the magnets. Not a problem with the internal winding grounded, but it
would cause hum if the wires are reversed. That may not be the case
with your strat pickups, but you should probably test that in advance.
Tony Done
"RS" <R...@sorrynospam.com> wrote in message
news:2enpj4ps3dtslue3i...@4ax.com...
That puts it out of phase.
Tony D
Claude V. Lucas
Backplate Silent Single Coil...
The BPSSC that the OP is referring to is like a dummy coil that
needs the three pickups to be the same for it to work properly.
It uses the same general principle as a humbucking pickup and
is ingeniously mounted in an oversized Strat tremolo cavity cover...
I have one, and it seems to cut the hum considerably without
trashing the single coil mojo. I've tried stacked coils of
various manufacture and other allegedly noise cancelling
pickups and the ones that I've tried all make the guitar
sound a bit too generic. The BPSSC cuts enough noise for it
to be worth it to me and my Strat still sounds like a Strat
rather than just an electric guitar. The downside is that it's
expensive. I got mine from eBay for ~$250. It's not 100% effective
either, in a noisy room with a high gain signal path there's
still some hum, just nowhere near as much as without...
I wish they'd make a Telecaster pickguard with the same
coil arrangement in it, I'd buy one in a second.
RS
wrote:
True. There was mention of reversing the magnets, which would also put
it out of phase, so I thought that was the objective. Easier to
reverse the wires than to fix the magnets, but both approaches would
result in nasal sound when pickups are switched in combination. And
of course just reversing the magnets would not correct the phasing of
hum-- that was the objective with the Suhr hum cancel circuit.
I've been able to reverse magnets on plastic bobbin pickups by heating
them with soldering iron and pushing them through. That requires some
care, and I do NOT recommend trying it on an expensive pickup. And it
won't work on fibre bobbins, of course.
Probably best to just get another regular neck pickup (non-RWRP) and
use it in the middle.
Don Evans
> In article <X6e%k.689$cu....@news-server.bigpond.net.au>,
> Tony Done <tony...@bigpond.com> wrote:
>>
>> "RS" <R...@sorrynospam.com> wrote in message
>> news:2enpj4ps3dtslue3i...@4ax.com...
>>> On Sun, 7 Dec 2008 16:35:59 -0800 (PST), Ludwig77
>>> <greg...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>
>>>> I'm thinking about getting a Suh noiseless backplate system to get
>>>> rid of the 60 cycle hum of my single-coil pickups:
>>>>
>
> Backplate Silent Single Coil...
>
><<snip>>
>
> I wish they'd make a Telecaster pickguard with the same
> coil arrangement in it, I'd buy one in a second.
+1 on that, for sure (Suhr?). OK, I know that was bad ... but I'd be all
over a Tele version ... definitely.
Don
Claude V. Lucas
I thought that I heard a rumor of such a thing.
I'm not suhr what they do for their Teles...
Don Evans
Last time I checked ... a while ago now, maybe a year, they didn't have a
comparable device.
Claude V. Lucas
Yeah, but if you spend $3K for one of their "T-Style SSC"s it's built in...
What do *I* know, but it seems that if they can embed the system
in a Strato backplate they could put it in a Tele pickguard...
Don Evans
Quote from Ed Yoon: "We can't do the retrofit on the Classic T because the
SSC coil needs to surround the bridge pickup inside the body and the only
way to cover up the coil inside the body is to have a separate wood top
glued onto the body during production. " So I guess that's the way they do
it. Probably takes care of issues with the steel bridge plate. I'm sure
that if they could put it in the pickguard, they would.
Claude V. Lucas
Ah.
I didn't realize that it was *that* elaborate.
The BPSSC doesn't completely surround all three Strato pickups
but it still seems to noticeably reduce the nasty hum.
My Tele isn't *that* bad. I have a Don Mare bridge pickup and
a CS Nocaster neck pickup, both single coil, and thorough copper
shielding.
It hums a bit with either pickup selected by itself but
is pretty quiet with both selected.
Adams661
The difference that they make is only marginal. Your guitar will
still do some humming.
Adams661
Shielding the cavities is a waste of time and effort. Shielding the
pickup coil isnt though.
I dont see why people have a problem with hum when it doesnt occur
while playing ,touching the strings or bridge? Suhr probably doesnt do
the mod on their guitars because Warmoth doesnt. They are one in the
same and affiliated. It pisses me off when people spend a shit load of
money on what they think is a custom hand made Suhr when what they're
getting is a Warmoth. Niothing wrong with a Warmoth if you like run of
the mill guitars though.
Don Evans
> On Dec 7, 4:35 pm, Ludwig77 <gregjg...@gmail.com> wrote:
>> I'm thinking about getting a Suh noiseless backplate system to get
>> rid of the 60 cycle hum of my single-coil pickups:
>>
>> http://www.suhrguitars.com/pickups.aspx#bpssc
>>
>> However, the manual says that if my Strat has a RWRP Middle pickup
>> (with the “South” pole
>> on the top of the pickup) installed, that the pickup will have to be
>> replaced.
>>
>> My Strat falls into this category, but why couldn't I simply reverse
>> the pickup in the cavity so that the "South" pole is at the bottom of
>> the pickup?
>
>
> Shielding the cavities is a waste of time and effort. Shielding the
> pickup coil isnt though.
You understand that the backplate we're talking about isn't a "shield" the
way you mean it, yes?
> I dont see why people have a problem with hum when it doesnt occur
> while playing ,touching the strings or bridge?
Some of us don't like hum, and with single coil pickups, hum does occur
while touching the bridge, if you're anywhere near a source of radiated hum.
>Suhr probably doesnt do
> the mod on their guitars because Warmoth doesnt. They are one in the
> same and affiliated. It pisses me off when people spend a shit load of
> money on what they think is a custom hand made Suhr when what they're
> getting is a Warmoth.
According to John Suhr, and I did ask him, that isn't true. I've seen his
guitars and I've used Warmoth bodies ... Suhr stuff is nicer for sure. BTW,
Suhr's strat mod is only available from him.
>Niothing wrong with a Warmoth if you like run of
> the mill guitars though.
According to you almost everything except the guitars you make are run of
the mill. I'd like to see one of yours up close and personal someday. Who
knows ... maybe they really are that good.
Don
RS
To be even a run of the mill usenet know-it-all, you'd have to be
right at least 20% of the time. You somehow manage to defy the law of
averages by topping out at 10%, max. In baseball, that would be 100
points below the Mendoza line. That must take considerable effort.
Here's a walkthrough of Suhr's factory:
http://www.suhrguitars.com/factory.aspx
Click on 'slideshow'. You'll notice that their factory is even bigger
than your basement shop. They have two Haas CNC machines, Plek Pro
automated setup gear, computerized pickup winders, and a bunch of
other cool stuff.
Warmoth sells parts. Suhr sells precision made guitars, set up with
attention to action and electronics. So that would also be different.
For anyone interested:
While Warmoth was decent in the past, they've been sliding. I used to
buy tons of parts from them, but lately their quality has been spotty,
and their best people have left. Their customer support used to be
guitar players who knew about guitar making. Now they have a bunch of
snotty corporates who are more interested in getting your credit card
than how their guitars sound. Glitzy coffee-table finishes look good
on a computer screen, but usually don't make for a great sounding
instrument. I don't buy from them any more.
USA Custom Guitars is the company that has tried to pick up from where
Warmoth was years ago. Tommy at USA Custom was once one of my
favorite guys when was at Warmoth. He was known for hand checking and
tap-testing bodies for people when they called in, and giving honest
advice about how good he thought the bodies were made. I referred many
amateur builders to him then. I haven't talked with him for a while,
but I presume he's still trying to take good care of musicians.
http://www.usacustomguitars.com/
(Not affiliated with anyone above)
No Flame = Peace!
Archtop and flat top acoustic guitars and mandolins.
www.monteleone.net/
Monteleone Instruments
What sets John Monteleone apart from other artisans working today is his
... Yet we still believe that it is John Monteleone himself, who does
all this. ... www.monteleone.net/index2.html
No Flame = Peace!
10********** A++
Nil
> USA Custom Guitars is the company that has tried to pick up from
> where Warmoth was years ago. Tommy at USA Custom was once one of
> my favorite guys when was at Warmoth. He was known for hand
> checking and tap-testing bodies for people when they called in,
> and giving honest advice about how good he thought the bodies were
> made. I referred many amateur builders to him then. I haven't
> talked with him for a while, but I presume he's still trying to
> take good care of musicians.
>
> http://www.usacustomguitars.com/
>
> (Not affiliated with anyone above)
That's a good reccomendation, and their product looks nice on their
site. I've been thinking about buying a replacement Tele neck, and I
will seriously consider them when the time comes.
Don Evans
Those are beautiful, but I can't imagine a RWRP set of strat pickups on
them. :-)
Don
Claude V. Lucas
USACG is a class act.
To be fair, I've been happy with what I've bought from Warmoth as well.
The last neck I bought from the Warmoth showcase is spectacular.
USACG is more flexible if you want something other than standard.
USACG refunded the upcharge for flame maple on the last neck that
I bought from them because they didn't think it was flamey enough.
I'd buy again from either, although I do my own finish work.
Nil
alt.guitar:
> To be fair, I've been happy with what I've bought from Warmoth as
> well.
I'm semi-happy with my minimal Warmoth experiences.
I bought a Strat neck about 12 years ago with a parts guitar in mind. I
had a very nice finish put on it by Pedulla, a local company that makes
beautiful custom basses and guitars. Looked great! But I never got
around to the project, and the neck sat in my closet for a decade.
Finally I found a good use for it, and I installed it and started
playing it. It played and felt really nice... but the neck was quite
unstable. It's EXTREMELY sensitive to temperature and humidity changes,
and the New England seasons play havoc with it. I had to tweak the
truss rod every few weeks at least, and since the adjustment was on the
heel, it was really a hassle. So the neck is now back in the closet.
My other experience is with a used Warmoth strat body I bought on eBay.
No complaints there at all. Very nice finish job, the thing looks,
feels, and sounds great.
I don't draw any real conclusions from all that, since the two
experiences cancel each other out. I'd probably consider buying from
Warmoth again.
> I'd buy again from either, although I do my own finish work.
My thought is to apply my own finish the whatever neck I buy.
Claude V. Lucas
I don't have a large sampling either.
One ebony/maple fretless bass neck and one Kingwood/Maple Strat
neck from Warmoth that are both all that I could want and one
one piece Maple Tele neck from USACG that is also great. I
live in the desert and both fretted necks dried and shrunk
a bit causing fret sprout that I had to deal with. I don't
hold that against either vendor, the same thing happened to
my real '55 Fender neck and it was 50 years old...
USACG was a bit easier to deal with when I wanted one tuner
hole drilled for a drop-D tuner that was a different size.
Like I said, they're a class act.
I finished all my necks by dying them to pop the grain and
then using Tru-Oil gunstock finish. Super easy and tougher
than nitro as far as wear and not getting sticky.
Here's a shot of the Strat neck...
RS
Sounds like both of those were older products. My problem with Warmoth
is more with their more recent turn, which I am told, coincided with
some management changes. Probably decided to cut expenses.
And they used to have great customer support people who would resolve
things painlessly. After a couple bad experiences with their new
customer support and policies, I decided that it's not worth the risk
and frustration. You may get something like the older quality Warmoth
products, or maybe get a lemon. They don't pay as much attention
these days. Maybe it makes sense for them, since many people won't
know the difference.
I've also heard complaints lately about their fretwork. Used to be
that you could count on frets being reasonably level. Sometimes you'd
get a neck that needed almost no work, and could almost be bolted on
right out of the box. Hard to imagine how that kind of thing could go
downhill. Stability of wood, perhaps.
RS
wrote:
>
>USACG is a class act.
>
>To be fair, I've been happy with what I've bought from Warmoth as well.
>
>The last neck I bought from the Warmoth showcase is spectacular.
>
>USACG is more flexible if you want something other than standard.
>
>USACG refunded the upcharge for flame maple on the last neck that
>I bought from them because they didn't think it was flamey enough.
Sounds like Tommy is still on his game then. He used to hang onto the
phone, talking music and going over minute details of the bodies and
necks they had available. Latest Warmoth support doesn't seem to know
much about their own products, and they don't waste time conveying
info to customers. To be expected these days, I guess.
Claude V. Lucas
I was gonna buy a USACG neck for my Strat build until I was floored
by a maple/Kingwood one in the profile I wanted in the Warmoth showcase.
It's a really pretty fretboard.
I have no complaints about the quality of the fretwork although it did
sprout a bit due to the low humidity here in the desert. I only had to
deal with a human there to make sure they cut the nut slot properly
for an OEM Earvana. It took me a bit to get through that it was the same
offset as for a LSR but I've had to deal with way worse in the not too
far past. I think the phone people there are under pressure to wrap up
calls and get on to the next one... They *did* piss me off once when they
waffled about drilling one different sized tuner hole on a Tele neck.
That's what led me to USACG...
No Flame = Peace!
Ha Ha! You should see the prices on them too. They're killer though. mvm
Don Evans
"Pop the grain" is right! Nice.
Don
Don Evans
IMO Warmoth has turned cold toward customers ... maybe too many flakes, who
knows, but by the time I got done talking to the rep on my last sale, he'd
almost talked me out of it. Also, they sent me split shaft pots for a Tele
... anyone need a couple of 250K pots? They didn't want to hear about any
problems with the order .. I had mistakenly assumed that a company who makes
guitar parts would know the difference ... my bad, in a way, but still. ...
Don
Don Evans
I have yet to hear one bad thing about USA custom, and a buddy of mine does
a lot of business with them.
Don
RS
wrote:
>IMO Warmoth has turned cold toward customers ... maybe too many flakes, who
>knows, but by the time I got done talking to the rep on my last sale, he'd
>almost talked me out of it. Also, they sent me split shaft pots for a Tele
>... anyone need a couple of 250K pots? They didn't want to hear about any
>problems with the order .. I had mistakenly assumed that a company who makes
>guitar parts would know the difference ... my bad, in a way, but still. ...
Yeah, that's what I was getting at. If they're going to deal with
musicians, they need to maintain a less corporate mindset. They only
need to piss off each customer once, and word gets around. They used
to be one of the few games in town, but now they're not.
Good to hear that USA Custom Guitars is doing well by those here who
have dealt with them.
RS
<redn...@REMOVETHIScomcast.net> wrote:
>I bought a Strat neck about 12 years ago with a parts guitar in mind. I
>had a very nice finish put on it by Pedulla, a local company that makes
>beautiful custom basses and guitars. Looked great! But I never got
>around to the project, and the neck sat in my closet for a decade.
>Finally I found a good use for it, and I installed it and started
>playing it. It played and felt really nice... but the neck was quite
>unstable. It's EXTREMELY sensitive to temperature and humidity changes,
>and the New England seasons play havoc with it. I had to tweak the
>truss rod every few weeks at least, and since the adjustment was on the
>heel, it was really a hassle. So the neck is now back in the closet.
That's unfortunate, Nil. That's probably not fixable either.
The heel-located truss rod adjustment is a bad idea, and with their
extended fretboards, no chance of adjusting while the strings are up
to tension.
60's style Fenders had heel-adjust, but you could often get a
flat-blade screwdriver into place with the strings on. Sometimes
required swapping the pickguard for one with a scoop in that spot.
Of course there's no chance of that with Warmoth's extended fretboard
( How often does anyone need that extra fret?)
Headstock-adjust truss rods got a bad rep due to their association
with crappy 70's 3-bolt necks, but I've had no problems with more
recent Fender necks with headstock-located adjustments. And I like the
finish on recent Fenders. Very low friction, non-stick.
>My other experience is with a used Warmoth strat body I bought on eBay.
>No complaints there at all. Very nice finish job, the thing looks,
>feels, and sounds great.
I've used lots of Warmoth bodies, finished and unfinished. Used to
have no problems, but the recent bodies that I picked up have serious
problems with the finish. Incredibly brittle; they chip if you look at
them wrong.
Maybe it's that they are trying to sell them by appearance, and the
thick, heavy gloss finish sparks an impulse buy when people see their
web pics. They do look nice. But not when the finish starts chipping
with no provocation. I don't think that lends well to sound either.
They're probably starting to cut corners in finish material quality
and application as well. Or maybe not drying the body wood
sufficiently. In any case, very unstable.
>I don't draw any real conclusions from all that, since the two
>experiences cancel each other out.
Well, if you think of it that way. <g> I'm not willing to buy two of
something to get one good one. And of course, I haven't even had 50%
work out lately.
> I'd probably consider buying from Warmoth again.
Well, their website looks nice. Glitzy highly flamed maple caps
probably sell themselves by appearance, but if they chip and don't
sound optimal, they're more showpieces than players. I think you can
get something that both looks and sounds good from other vendors these
days. (USA Custom Guitars, Allparts, etc)
>> I'd buy again from either, although I do my own finish work.
>
>My thought is to apply my own finish the whatever neck I buy.
Nitro?
Charlie X
day. The guys at warmoth seem to be very annoyed by customers calling
them. As soon as you mention that you want something even slightly
custom, they just say, "Sorry, we cant make that' and hang up in your
face.
USA Custom actually can make a custom neck...it may take a while, but
they can do it. Tommy is a great guy and will keep u posted on
progress. His price is fairly solid and he will work with you. Once i
worked with USA custom i deleted all links to Warmoth and i dont think
they will be needed in the future.
Good luck!
charliex.com