CF Martin customer service responds to my rant about the Mexican made DX series.
MartinGibsonTaylor
contents verbatim here, but I will talk about their response openly
and if they want to take issue with that they can.
I was told that they are striving to make a quality product for all
budgets and that by taking their X series to Mexico they able to help
these Mexican workers who otherwise "... lived in near poverty". To
Martin's credit (although it was not stated in the e-mail) the company
(according to press releases) went to great lengths to preserve US
jobs and I can't find an instance of a US Martin Guitar CO factory
worker being let go because of the move of the X series to Mexico. I
wanted to state all of that because I still love Martin.
Martin is right, it's the US consumer who's pushed them to move their
lowest end line to Mexico. While I've already made arrangements to
exchange my Mexican made 000X1 Martin for an American made 000-15, I
am a bit more understanding to why they did this.
The fact is the budget end of the business accounts for most of the
guitar sells every year and the fact is most consumers who spend less
than $1000 for a guitar could care less where it's built. To Martin's
credit there was nothing wrong the 000X1 from a quality perspective,
the HPL back and sides are what they are, but on this model is solid
spruce and for $500 it's solid spruce top Martin, built to the same
specs (measurements) of their other much more expensive guitars and
with an amazing attention to detail (perfect out of the box). Put it
this way, the $500 HPL back and sides Martin feels, plays and sounds
better than any Yamaha or Takamine demanding high price tags in the
same store. So I'm not going to suggest you boycott Martin or the X
series, they are what they are and what they are is a damn good
product and at a damn good price, for some they might be the perfect
fit.
My problem was I left the store assuming since I was buying a Martin
that I was buying an American made product, so it was my ignorance. I
am still saddened that consumers demand have put Martin in a situation
where they have to this to compete, but they've made a strong point
that it really doesn't cut into their core business and reassured me
that there NO plans to move ANY of their high-end product to Mexico or
anywhere outside the US.
I'm looking forward to my Martin 000-15 coming in, it's a special
order job so I'll have to wait a while... but worth it for me to know
I'm paying American workers and I'm getting an all solid wood guitar
out of the deal for extra $400 or so, not bad at all.
jtees4
I own USA made, Korean made, Japanese made, and have owned Mexican
made guitars. I used to buy uSA only. Did that with cars for more than
many years too. But I gave up...or gave in. Felt a little better after
reading The World is Flat. I'd recommend the book to anyone...and i am
not a fan of the author...but he was right about a lot. Opened my
eyes. My only real beef is...if it's made in Mexico...then say it.
I'll give Fender a little credit for putting the M in their serial
numbers so they are not trying to really hide anything. Some companies
go out of their way to let you know where a product is made. I was
over a guys house recently...he always wanted a Martin since the 60's.
He's like 55. He finally got one. It was Mexican made, but he did not
have the slightest clue. I think he overpaid based on the name and I
know he assumed it was American made. That's wrong. They should make
it clear where the guitar is made. Good luck with your Martin(s).
*********
http://www.soundclick.com/bands/default.cfm?bandID=789610
Sac Dave
"MartinGibsonTaylor" <Jeremy...@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:f5e9463c-766d-4a7d...@s13g2000prd.googlegroups.com...
It's just a matter of time before they move all there operations out of the
country. The big 3 have spent years leaving the US. Martin can sugar coat
it anyway they want and if you believe US workers did not lose jobs I have
this big red bridge going across the S.F. bay I can get you a deal on.
MartinGibsonTaylor
> "MartinGibsonTaylor" <Jeremy.De...@gmail.com> wrote in message
Well, if we continue to make their Mexican made guitars account for
most of their profits then yeah... Regardless of what they say today
they could go down that path you're right. Imagine a future 20 years
down the road where everyone works at Walmart and Walmart (their
stores mall size by this time) have music stores that sell CF Martin
branded guitars made exclusively in Mexico. You look down at your
grandkids and shake your head and they don't get it....
Keith Adams
dont. The bottom line(thats where you should look first in all situations.
Do away with all the top layers of crap) is that the suckers could very
easily build a low budget guitar in the U.S.A. but they're greedy. Yes they
gave the poor fucking Mexicans some jobs but at the same time it could have
been that many more American jobs kept here instead of giving them to
Mexico. If you had any balls you would have told them that. I know that
we're gonna keep cutting our own throats but we should damned well stop
buying anything made elsewhere. That will force the greedy bastards like
Martin,Fender and all of the rest to start playing right or go broke. Since
Fender isnt really Fender anyway someone else can make their guitars better
for cheaper once they're gone.
. Fender peg heads could say Old Doc Adams Two Ball Throat Lotion on them
and they would still have as much of a right/claim to be called Fender as
present day Fenders do.
"MartinGibsonTaylor" <Jeremy...@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:f5e9463c-766d-4a7d...@s13g2000prd.googlegroups.com...
MartinGibsonTaylor
> I'll say it again.You write like you know what you're talking about but you
> dont. The bottom line(thats where you should look first in all situations.
> Do away with all the top layers of crap) is that the suckers could very
> easily build a low budget guitar in the U.S.A. but they're greedy. Yes they
> gave the poor fucking Mexicans some jobs but at the same time it could have
> been that many more American jobs kept here instead of giving them to
> Mexico. If you had any balls you would have told them that. I know that
> we're gonna keep cutting our own throats but we should damned well stop
> buying anything made elsewhere. That will force the greedy bastards like
> Martin,Fender and all of the rest to start playing right or go broke. Since
> Fender isnt really Fender anyway someone else can make their guitars better
> for cheaper once they're gone.
> . Fender peg heads could say Old Doc Adams Two Ball Throat Lotion on them
> and they would still have as much of a right/claim to be called Fender as
> present day Fenders do.
>
I appriciate the hard edge tone on this. I haven't changed sides, I'm
just struggling to try and be objective. My gut feeling (that I keep
denying) is this was a greed driven move that could have been avoided
and my gut is probably right, so I'm agreeing with you.
I never had a problem with Martin's Sigma line as long as they didn't
stamp their Martin brand on it I didn't mind so much. Do I care that
we as a culture go for cheap over USA made, you bet I do (see my other
thread on this). I understand maybe 10% of the big picture on this,
but you don't need a degree in economics to see the damage not buying
American has done to us.
I'm going to put some more thought into it and send Martin a response,
they probably won't like what I have to say and it won't make a
difference, but someone needs to be a voice.
Julian Treadwell
>> Put it
>> this way, the $500 HPL back and sides Martin feels, plays and sounds
>> better than any Yamaha or Takamine demanding high price tags in the
>> same store.
As somebody who is considering both those brands (Takamine and Yamaha)
for possible purchase I would be very interested to hear why you think
this. Quality of manufacture? Tone? Playability?
PapaCarl
I'm ignorant about some things here.....are Martins made in PA all hand
made? Or, does Martin used CNA technology too, like so many other
companies? If they do, the quality should be able to reproduced anywhere
they set up the plant and train the workers right. That takes it to the
issue of paying Americans to do jobs....and as long as companies operate for
maximum profit and the cost of living is so damn high, we are screwed.
Imagine if we didn't have to pay for healthcare. Then try and think of all
the other things we pay through the nose for that couold be changed. If you
know, let me in on how Martins are made....the ones being made in Nazareth,
PA. PapaCarl
Steve Tew
costs and other insurance, and taxes are also much lower. Yes, they could
build a low budget guitar in the USA, like the DX series which was made in
the USA until they moved production to Mexico in 2006. I think it was 2006,
anyway.
The cost of continuing in the USA would mandate a price for the product that
would not compete in the market. Seems like the unions, fuel prices,
lawsuits, medical costs, and high corporate taxes are to blame. At least
some goods are made in the USA, but it is not getting better for the most
part, and the Democrats want to punish companies that use foreign labor.
That's not much of an incentive for those companies to cuddle up to the
American market...
One of my American cars has a Honda engine... Go figure.
You stop buying foreign made goods and let us know how it goes.
Steve
"Keith Adams" <keith...@socal.rr.com> wrote in message
news:47d8757c$0$16658$4c36...@roadrunner.com...
housemouse
> > > I'm looking forward to my Martin 000-15 coming in, it's a special
> > > order job so I'll have to wait a while... but worth it for me to know
> > > I'm paying American workers and I'm getting an all solid wood guitar
> > > out of the deal for extra $400 or so, not bad at all.
<stuff snipped>
> Well, if we continue to make their Mexican made guitars account for
> most of their profits then yeah... Regardless of what they say today
> they could go down that path you're right. Imagine a future 20 years
> down the road where everyone works at Walmart and Walmart (their
> stores mall size by this time) have music stores that sell CF Martin
> branded guitars made exclusively in Mexico. You look down at your
> grandkids and shake your head and they don't get it....
I don't get it. You go on with these dire predictions, then give even
more money to the company that inspired your whole rant. It's your
business of course, and none of mine. But if something stirred me up
the way this whole move of the lower end martins to Mexico did you, I
wouldn't be buying from them. I'd give the money to a competitor of
theirs. Or donate the money to a politician who is against moving
these jobs to Mexico, etc.. Find someone who votes the way you
believe, and give them your money.
I don't feel the same way you do about martins being made in Mexico or
wherever. I think that it is a natural function of capitalism for
goods to be made where they can be made the cheapest, and that is just
sort of an inevitable thing. Just because manufacturing is moving out
of the USA, doesn't mean folks in the USA will all be working retail.
The USA economy is doing better now, even with all the current
problems, than it was in the 1970's when all the manufacturing was
still here! It would sure be great to keep all of these jobs here,
but I just don't see it happening.
I think the extreme growth of the national debt in the past few years
is a much more serious threat to our economy than these manufacturing
jobs slowly going away.
AJ
@s12g2000prg.googlegroups.com>, Jeremy...@gmail.com says...
>
> I appriciate the hard edge tone on this. I haven't changed sides, I'm
> just struggling to try and be objective. My gut feeling (that I keep
> denying) is this was a greed driven move that could have been avoided
> and my gut is probably right, so I'm agreeing with you.
>
> I never had a problem with Martin's Sigma line as long as they didn't
> stamp their Martin brand on it I didn't mind so much. Do I care that
> we as a culture go for cheap over USA made, you bet I do (see my other
> thread on this). I understand maybe 10% of the big picture on this,
> but you don't need a degree in economics to see the damage not buying
> American has done to us.
>
> I'm going to put some more thought into it and send Martin a response,
> they probably won't like what I have to say and it won't make a
> difference, but someone needs to be a voice.
>
Martin isn't a large corporate conglomerate or owned by Wall street
investment bankers, it's a family owned business that's been passed down
through generations. Whenever these types of companies pass from one
generation to another, there can be a tendency to want to change things
based on the interests of the new generation, either to grow the
business or turn it into something different entirely. Chris Martin has
been interviewed in any number of places and it's been pretty clear that
his interest is building guitars and being involved in the operation of
the company. He doesn't come across as some playboy driving around in
his Ferrari off the profits of the dying family business. So I doubt the
decision to move some production was made either lightly or purely out
of greed.
I don't know what went into that decision in Martins case, but there are
some other possibilities. A common problem for smaller builders is how
to meet peaks in demand. Hiring and training new skilled workers that
may have to be laid off later can take time away from the present
workers and turn out to be counter-productive. Asking highly skilled
workers to build a cheaper product can be very bad for morale. I wonder
what happened to Guild's Waverly work force after the Fender buy out.
There may be physical issues with expanding the existing factory.
Another big concern for a lot of builders has been finishing guitars
under new environmental regulations. It's getting really hard to paint
anything and Nitro finishes are among the worst.
jthread
"MartinGibsonTaylor" <Jeremy...@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:f5e9463c-766d-4a7d...@s13g2000prd.googlegroups.com...
purposes. i like a solid wood better, but for accompaniment, the x series is
a nice guitar.
I don't really care where they are made. If it keeps them in Mehheco all the
better.
if you told me to boycott Martin that would make me want one more.
Jim "Made in America"
MartinGibsonTaylor
wrote:
Tone is subjective. What's good to my ears may not be good to yours.
Also if you intend to sing and play at the same time you have to
consider what tone complements your vocal qualities best. For example,
when I sing and play I'm mostly a rhythm player, very light on finger
style and I'm looking for a percussive sound for me the DXK2 Martin
produces a deep, rich, unique tone that records very well against my
vocals. The guitar doesn't work so well for fingestyle playing as it's
too- muddy is the best word to describe it I guess.
When I'm talking about Yamaha Takamine compared to Martin's I'm
talking only about what Guitar Center stocks. Sad as it is, Guitar
Center is going to provide the largest selection and most people are
going to shop there. I can't say much, I shop there when they have
what I want and no one else does, but I also have bought 2 guitars
from mom & pop retailers this past year. The mid-range Yamaha's and
Takamine's they stock at the three locations in my area are descent
guitars. They don't carry Takamine's signature series, which is an
entirely different grade of product and one that many recording artist
play with.
There's a clear distinction in the feel, finish and sound lower end
Takamine to the high-end models. I have not played on a "high end"
Yamaha acoustic, but I assume they exist. Again, they aren't bad, but
you can play any full size Martin guitar (even DX series made in
Mexico) and you'll notice an extreme about of detail went into setup
and finish (fret dressing, action, etc). I was told the price on a
Martin goes up based on material cost and build time (and now
unfortunately country of origin), but the quality and craftsmanship
are consistent.
Although the DX series Martin's don't look like much, they feel and
play like a much more expensive instrument and none of the other
"corporate" guitar makers seem to be able to pull that off and Martin
isn't my favorite of what these guys have to offer, just my favorite
for-the-buck. To my ears the best of what Guitar Center has to offer
in acoustics is probably the Taylor 714-CE or some similar Taylor
model. But if I were to spend that kind of money on guitar, I would
probably buy a McPherson or something else that you can't find at GC.
Twang
> "MartinGibsonTaylor" <Jeremy.De...@gmail.com> wrote in message
>
> - Show quoted text -
I don't give a crap where they make them.
I don't give a crap who makes them.
I don't give a crap because it has nothing to do with me, anyway.
Corporations all over america are doing the same thing.
They have plenty of political support from both sides.
They are going to do whatever they want, for profit, for bottom line,
and for thier corporate future.
Stockholders demand that they do.
Want a voice? Buy shitload of stock.
Eventually we will reach trade agreements with practially everyone,
and in that we will see trade offs. they will favor corporations and
they will disfavor americans.
They will allow pollution, they will deny tariffs, they will stop
boycotts, and in the process they will probably solve the
copyright infringement, but we will have to pay for that.
You and I.
We know, for a fact, that in a truly world competitive market, free of
the restraints imposed by trade agreements that protect america, you
could get a very best guitar from practically any country in the
world.
They know this, too.
So they protect, and they wheel and deal, all for the intended purpose
of protecting the corporation.
You and I will have to make do.
But that will break down, too. It has to. Economy brought down the
soviet union. We bankrupted the bastards with the arms race, the space
race, the purchase race..
And now they're gonna pop right back, but this time the arena is full
of spectators, not soldiers.
spectators r us.
continue to hold on to your myths about american manufacture.
It will go the way of the buffalo.
Just another big stinky cow.
We've seen threads in here time and again. chinese manufacture better
than or equal to pianos, guitars, and more.
Sooner or later all this crap about great american this or that will
become a moot point.
If you have a free exchange of information, and the pc made that way
big true, you're going to wind up with people who earn less, are taxed
more, (thanks george you fucking piece of shit), and still want
things.
And they wont give them up.
We are hoist by our own petard.
don't talk to me about consumerism. You're all consumers. You consume
guitars candy.
You want stuff.
You get it from all over. Your house is full of it.
The small percentage who avoid that have very little effect except to
continue to exacerbate the situation with nonsensical arguments about
patriotism.. or such.
Is wal mart patriotic? they sure have a lot of red white and blue..
they push the image constantly.. they love the country cds and wont
stock the manson cds.
they put their finger right up your ass.. and leave it.
and guess what. I'll shop there. I need more money for guitars.
Half of you wouldn't even hire the other half.
You're too damn concerned about political affiliation, or religious
affiliation, or how people fuck.
You think your morality trumps all. You think your ideology trumps
all.
You think god and country and blah blah blah
while money moves..
power decides..
You sheepled yourself into a corner and now you're bleating about it.
As if those crummy rotten big 3 cars of old were made by someone else.
Look.. it's going to be a true world economy, it has to.
We have to find ways to make that work.
And you have to stop being a sucker.. pat robertson and richard
dawkins aren't going to mean shit in the end.
Nations aren't going to meant that much, either. They already don't.
It's just bargaining positions.
How else could it be? We no longer have the resources, so how are we
going to stop anything on an open market?
Bomb everyone who doesn't save their guitar wood for us?
Close the borders you think. well fat chance charlie. You think big
money is going to listen to that?
But hey, don't listen to me. instead, worry all day about whether
someone you'll never meet had an abortion. Or whether someone at work
is gay. Or whether or not you're 'ready' for a black president.
You'll worry if there's enough of a quota of women in high places.
You'll worry about all sorts of stupid things that are only there in
the first place to keep you busy being stupid.
while spitzer gets a 6K$ hooker ..
and larry hangs out in the bathroom..
and foley bangs the pages..
and clinton bangs the interns..
and on and on and on year after year..
these are your leaders.
they gonna lead you to a promised land.
pie in the sky, when you die. chump.
right now you're all pissed off. I'm not patriotic enough for you.
Well, there's another problem. If you're so simple minded you can't
read this as the lament it is, I feel fucking a sorry for you.
This crap wont be solved in here, or by us, not by a long shot.
I'm every bit as disgusted with hilary as I was with rove.
same fart, different asshole.
it's a system of phoniness.
why do you think obama inspires people? because he makes the same
statement, only in vague terms, and claims he'll change it.
fat chance of that.
incrementally, with real american support, someone might get us
started. maybe!
but is it going to be mccain. who's played every political angle in
the book.. cronied where it was safest.. compromised where it was
least discoverable..
left and right have left and right to protect and defend.
Nothing more. just the political corporation of america.
same fart, different asshole.
across the board, while we argue, polarized beyond sensibility.
I say again, half of you wouldn't hire the other half.
and where that idea breaks down is the same place among us as it is in
the system we claim isn't serving us.
that point is where we both say, what's in it for us.
My feeling is that this wont change. that an elite of both parties
will be giving support, trickling it down, to their corporate workers.
But only so long as it serves to keep them going.
You can't have gangs. and that's what we have.. bloods and crips..
just talk to each other.. remember your arguments in here.
Gangs make deals. They make deals for themselves.
deal yourself in.. go ahead.. try.
you'll wind up wearing the star of david on your sleeve just as surely
as has happened.
Probably be a bumpersticker though, they're cheaply made in china!
and besides. you're all ready identified.. you're not one of them.
If I'm wrong about this then tell me.. where in the last thirty years
have any of our leaders addressed any of this to our benefit?
How many million illegal immigrants over how many years has it taken
them to even recognize this as a problem?
And what's the score? When you look at what we're losing compared just
to what we're managing to retain.. we're down.
compared to what we might have achieved.. we're farther down.
but you don't like that sort of idea.. it's not patriotic.
Not patriotic enough for you to say. come to think of it, the minimum
wage should go up.
working conditions should be far less fascistic.
people should have health care.
You don't want to lose your american dream of becoming wealthy.
Neither do the wealthy. They like you to dream.
They like to be fucking asleep as much as possible.
the majority. period. because it serves them.
As long as the two phony baloney 'halves' of the country are at each
others throat. there is no country.
Me, I'm riding the wave. surfs up!
So are you. aintcha!
We're gonna have to do a lot better than bitching about losing
american jobs.
We're going to have to compete.. us.. compete as patriots true..
but how? If you're told to put last years dashboard in this years car,
even though the colors don't even match.. you'll do it.
You need your job.
And while you're stuggling, watching corporate mishandling strip you
of your last degree of personal pride in your work.. the other 'half'
of the people will bitch about a bail out that saves your job..
and the other 'half' of the people will bitch about lousy american
products.
how do you like the squeeze comrades?
I worked in a factory where people unhappy with thier wages would
break down the assembly line, periodically.
I know a person who worked in a factory where the parts were made all
wrong.. but shipped anyway so as to gain more time to make up for it.
Nobody got fired at either place.
and the people in the factorys.. they were worried about whether that
one woman with the short hair was queer.
Or whether that one guy smoked pot.
Or who listened to charlie daniels, or who had a lovely god sticker on
their freaking bumper.
Oh yeah. You're real concerned.
as concerned about dumping on your fellow americans as you are about
appeariing patriotic.
The sheepdog barks, the sheeple change direction.
herd mentality is not society.
We're supposed to be human beings.
maybe if we stop all the fundamentalists/queers/yourchosenenemyhere
everything will be alright.
you bet!
Now be sure and vote for the person chosen for you to vote for again
this year.
don't break that chain!
big money is in the mail!
jimmy
wrote:
Not ignorant at all Papa. Your statement, "the quality should be able
to (be) reproduced anywhere they set up the plant and train the
workers right" is absolutely correct. It's all about the headstock &
the MIA branding. I have a Shanandoah D-3532 & these guitars tell a
lot about the industry. They were partially built in Japan & finished
in the US. Martin got away with putting a MIA brand on them for a
while but were eventually prohibited from doing so. They're the SAME
F'king guitars but mine is more "coveted" than one that says MIJ!
tony
jimmy
<house...@klassmaster.com> wrote:
snipped...
>
>I think the extreme growth of the national debt in the past few years
>is a much more serious threat to our economy than these manufacturing
>jobs slowly going away.
It's no longer a threat. If you think about it on a smaller scale,
there are lots of businesses which are bankrupt. They just don't know
it yet. That's the nature of bankruptcy.
tony
jimmy
wrote:
Dunno man. Isn't the fact that people will pay 2 or 3 times more for
a MIA guitar reason enough to prevent this? If not, maybe we should
be loading up on the final runs of MIA d-28's as their value will only
increase more rapidly if they are not produced any more.
tony
MartinGibsonTaylor
response to this was a one line "A lot of people feel as you do....
The 000-15 you've ordered in Made in the USA factory".
Here's what I had to say to them:
The DX series started out in the US and you guys were making a profit
on them in 2005, I guess I don't understand how a year later you can
start building the exact same models in Mexico (and selling them at
the same price at retail). where you are clearly paying workers much
less and you're outside the reach of OSHA.
Consumers are getting a quality product at the same price (is it a
fair price?), but Martin profit margin increases dramatically on what
I would guess are some of your best selling models. It's a win for
Martin, it's a win for the Mexican worker, but I'm sorry I don't see
it as a win for the US consumers or helping the economy any.
Even if you did reallocate the work staff who were involved in the
construction of the US DX series to other projects, you have
reportedly 200 jobs down in Mexico that could be here. I've ordered a
000-15 and will be exchanging the 000X1 as soon as it arrives. I
assume this guitar is American made. I do wish Martin would do more to
identify which of your product is built in Mexico and which is US for
each guitar model. You claim that your cherished models will remain
built in the US, but I have to wonder how long it will really be
before all sub $2000 guitars are also built in Mexico. Keeping your
best selling product Made in the USA should be a priority, but we're
not going to agree on that.
###
MartinGibsonTaylor
> On Mar 12, 7:07 pm, MartinGibsonTaylor <Jeremy.De...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > > > I'm looking forward to my Martin 000-15 coming in, it's a special
> > > > order job so I'll have to wait a while... but worth it for me to know
> > > > I'm paying American workers and I'm getting an all solid wood guitar
> > > > out of the deal for extra $400 or so, not bad at all.
>
> <stuff snipped>
>
> > Well, if we continue to make their Mexican made guitars account for
> > most of their profits then yeah... Regardless of what they say today
> > they could go down that path you're right. Imagine a future 20 years
> > down the road where everyone works at Walmart and Walmart (their
> > stores mall size by this time) have music stores that sell CF Martin
> > branded guitars made exclusively in Mexico. You look down at your
> > grandkids and shake your head and they don't get it....
>
> I don't get it. You go on with these dire predictions, then give even
> more money to the company that inspired your whole rant. It's your
> business of course, and none of mine. But if something stirred me up
> the way this whole move of the lower end martins to Mexico did you, I
> wouldn't be buying from them. I'd give the money to a competitor of
> theirs.
The problem is, for the quality there isn't a competitor product to be
had. You can love a company and hate what their doing at the same
time. That's the way I feel about CF Martin right now. I'm buying an
American made Martin because A. I love their product and B. I'm
supporting their US staff.
> Or donate the money to a politician who is against moving
> these jobs to Mexico, etc.. Find someone who votes the way you
> believe, and give them your money.
I have and I will continue to.
>
> I don't feel the same way you do about martins being made in Mexico or
> wherever. I think that it is a natural function of capitalism for
> goods to be made where they can be made the cheapest, and that is just
> sort of an inevitable thing.
Well, there is no way to keep this non-political. There is this idea
of globalization where the entire world holds hands and we have free
trade and transparent borders, it's flawed.
> Just because manufacturing is moving out
> of the USA, doesn't mean folks in the USA will all be working retail.
> The USA economy is doing better now, even with all the current
> problems, than it was in the 1970's when all the manufacturing was
> still here!
By what measure? Many Economist would argue with you and say our
economy today is much worse. Look at US trade deficit and the ever
decreasing value of the US dollar. Those are the metrics that get to
the bottom line. Since my other recent post about the ignorance and
sins of the "boomer" generation.
>It would sure be great to keep all of these jobs here,
> but I just don't see it happening.
>
By not keeping these jobs here what we create is dependence on other
countries. On the surface that seems like a good thing, we boost their
economy by sending money to buy their product and they offer quality
product at a price we can't make it for here. US corporations are
manufacturing now in Mexico, China, Indonesia, etc... But what a lot
of people don't do is stop to think about the reasons we can't
manufacture products cheaper here, that's the real issue. There are
quite a few, but you can boil it down to
* Government restrictions: minimum wage laws, safety standards for
factory workers (OSHA), environmental standards all playing a big
part.
* US workers want more money, because we have certain life style
expectation (glass bubble syndrome)
So when we send these jobs overseas and build factories in places like
Mexico, we're just turning our back on these standards. We saying to
corporations, you can by pass the minimum wage and standards by
building in a place were the workers will work for less money and
where the same standards are required. That's the real problem. As we
boost these other countries economies we become more and more
defendant on their goods. They will get to a point were they will
charge more and since our skilled work force has declined we become
incapable of building a product that can compete. Compare Japanese
owned Lexus sales to US owned Lincoln. Apple for Apples features are
about the same, but Toyota owned Lexus has become a stronger brand and
can sell for more.
US dollars have helped turn Japan into the modern, high tech country
they are today and we're doing the same for China and Mexico right
now. There will be no room left for "high end" American craftsmanship.
Really our only strong exports are: agriculture, entertainment and
technology and our writers and actors keep demanding more money and
our technology companies are hiring more and more engineers from
overseas and setting up offices in other locations.
Globalization works as long as all countries involved have something
equal to offer to one another. But when you have a rich country taking
advantage of third-world countries we have situations were the only
thing we're exporting is our money. We become pure consumers and that
is going to collapse.
What does this country produce that the rest of the world wants to
buy?
When that question can no longer be answered (it's rather hard to
answer now) then were is our money going to come from? We aren't
producing anything to sell to them? This isn't rocket science.
Corporations really don't care, because they are global. If the US
economy is destroyed and our nation in ruins they will just move to
another country it's a very bad situation.
> I think the extreme growth of the national debt in the past few years
> is a much more serious threat to our economy than these manufacturing
> jobs slowly going away.
It's a combination, but I would argue the increase in national debt
can be in some aspect tied back to the oursoucing of jobs. Look at
welfare cost, etc... It's a fools paradise to think capitalism is not
without it's major flaws. Especially when you look at the amazing
economic booms in places like (Communist) China. I'm not support
communism, but we have to find some more balance... I know some
disagree and if you care about these sort of things, that's why it's
important to know what the candidates are for and place your vote.
Don Evans
Twang wrote:
>><snip>> Now be sure and vote for the person chosen for you to vote for
>>again
> this year.
> don't break that chain!
> big money is in the mail!
Patrick .. you ever write all this stuff down in one place? You should.
Don
Derek
I especially love the "same fart different asshole" line.
Reading the above angst in the various posts, I am again left
wondering why our almost century long quest to turn the rest of the
world to capitalism has produced results that we are now upset about.
Did we think that when others embraced capitalism that they wouldn't
figure out how it works, and make it work for them?
Also, the above talk about Martin, et al and greed. Are any of us
here going to turn down a raise, bonus, or nice promotion? No we are
going to feel we deserve it.
Profit is not a four letter word. Fender, Martin, IMB, etc are all in
business to make a profit. As long as they play by the agreed upon
rules, it is none of my damned business how much they make.
But as Twang points out, by all means, buy stock if you want some say.
MartinGibsonTaylor
The problem can really be broken down into a paragraph or so, it
starts with a question: What does the US currently produce/export at a
competitive price that the rest of the world wants to buy?
The answer can be found by looking at the trade deficit and the answer
is not much at all. Looking at what we were exporting 20 years ago
compared to today it's sad. So that's a problem we have to solve. If
we don't solve it then what happens is we become pure consumers,
exporting no goods and service only our US dollars to buy goods and
service. So what happens to the US dollar in this scenario? It
declines to the point that it's eventually worth nothing to the rest
of the world and then we become a third-world country, completely
reliant on products from other countries, demanding constant
entertainment and having noting to offer the rest of the world (did I
mention this is all the baby boomer generations fault :)
It is a lot more complicated than that on paper, but in many ways
it's just that simple. Fixing the problem isn't that simple, because
our Capitalism currently works "big business" is encouraged to make as
much money as it possibly can even at the expense of US jobs.
Companies like Ford, GM, Fender and now CF Martin start to just become
distributors of goods made outside the US.
It's only a matter of time before a Mexican or Chinese guitar company
rises up that not only set up a factory for low end guitars, but also
has skilled luthier (guitar maker) willing to accept less than 1/3 of
what an American guitar maker would require. Also the executives in
the Mexican corporations could be paid less, because well because
there's a difference in cost of living and cultural needs. Again, this
whole trade-block idea that has worked so well for the European Union
won't work here because of the huge offset between culture and
lifestyle in Mexico vs the US.
What actually happens is Mexicos economy gets a boost and our takes a
hit and that pattern continues until the playing field is leveled out
and the America we once knew is gone completely.
PapaCarl
I've said this before in this group.....the DX series will sound great for a
while......then watch what happens when the weather changes, temp changes
sharply, like taking it out to a gig in the winter....or if you go from one
place to another where the humidity changes. They become
unplayable....Martin is well aware of this issue.....they take them back and
put them in a super humidified room for a while....I have to do the same for
the two I have. I will never buy another one, and I'm going to sell these
as soon as I can.....one I've had since they came out, there have been a few
versions of the DCX1E.....different neck materials and such......the way
these things can change, neck and top....to take it back to an "authorized
dealer" every time you needed to adjust the truss rod would mean you lived
at the dealers. I have played a bunch of Washburns and other guitars in the
same price range and somewhat lower that are far, far better guitars. The
whole deal about buying American is great....some people can't afford
to....should we have to give up playing?
Julian Treadwell
Thanks to both of you for this. Neither my playing nor my bank balance
warrant a high-end guitar, but I had been considering a DX Martin. I
live in a climate where the humidity varies from extreme tropical in
summer to dry outback in winter, so I'd say the DX being
humidity-sensitive is a non-starter.
I just noticed last week that my MIK Fender has started to lift a bit
near the bridge, and luthier work would probably cost more than the
guitar. I definitely need to relegate it to 'slide only' and buy
another. Time to spend a Saturday morning going round the music stores.
And adopt the practice of de-tensioning the strings on my acoustic
when not in use.
Julian
MartinGibsonTaylor
> "MartinGibsonTaylor" <Jeremy.De...@gmail.com> wrote in message
DXK2 (with made entirely of HPL, even the top) had perfect action and
setup out of the box and it plays the same today. In fact, I play it
daily and only have to tune it maybe once every couple of weeks. I
also own a Washburn ($500 made with solid top, rosewood back and
sides) that while it is a nice guitar and has a great sound when
plugged in goes out of tune much more often and overall it has many
attributes that make it qualify as a lesser quality instrument. I live
about 40 miles east of the Gulf of Mexico and it's very humid here so
I would think if there was a problem with HPL I'd be experiencing it
with my DXK2
I wonder if the real problem has to do with the top wood on these
lower end Martin's been unfinished? The DK2 has a finish on it's top,
but the 000X1 I have (and still have until my 000-15 comes in) is
inconsistent in terms of tone, so far it has stayed in tune well, but
the tone character does change depending on environment.
So I don't know what the deal is about this, one of the selling points
about HPL (High Pressure Laminate) is that it is supposedly immune to
environmental conditions, so go figure. The 000X1 while made in Mexico
seems to be built to the same quality, but the interesting thing
related to your post is that the 000X1 like the DCX1E has a "hand
rubbed" top finish, which appears to mean "sanded down and left
unfinished" I wonder if that's not the real problem.
Les Cargill
Exports comprise 11.1% of US GDP. Production of goods, 19.8%.
Apparently... lots of stuff. $13.794 trillion GDP times
11.1% is $1.53 trillion.
Services comprise 67.8%. The rest is government - 12.4%
Bulk foodstock production in the US is *overwhelming*. And
ti is the most cost effective available. There are other
problems with that ( see "King Corn" ) but it's not a
bad balance.
> The answer can be found by looking at the trade deficit and the answer
> is not much at all.
You call it a trade deficit... but it's not. Not really. By the
immutable laws of double-entry bookkeeping, there is an equal return
flow. In something. Might be something relatively ephemeral - like
bonds - but there it is.
Effectively, the $1.4B trade deefecit with China, all they get is $1.4B
worth of bonds.
> Looking at what we were exporting 20 years ago
> compared to today it's sad. So that's a problem we have to solve. If
> we don't solve it then what happens is we become pure consumers,
> exporting no goods and service only our US dollars to buy goods and
> service.'
That can't really happen. Prices would prevent that.
And Costco is kicking the poop outta WalMart
right now. The Costco model is "kinder/gentler". It
works better.
> So what happens to the US dollar in this scenario? It
> declines to the point that it's eventually worth nothing to the rest
> of the world and then we become a third-world country, completely
> reliant on products from other countries, demanding constant
> entertainment and having noting to offer the rest of the world (did I
> mention this is all the baby boomer generations fault :)
>
Geez, I feel like Ned Beatty's character in "Network".
As the dollar declines, two things happen. Manufactured goods
leaving the US become proportionally cheaper. And production
capacity becomes cheaper. Land, buildings etc do *too*, but
that's been tried and it always fails.
So long as it's possible to increase productive capacity
in the USA ( and it is eminently possible ), we're good to go,
because we can, ironically, substitute domestic production
for goods now imported. Tide goes out, tide comes in. But
as long as the service sector was expanding as rapidly as
it was whilst the rest of the world was making increasing
quantities of stuff, it made more sense.
It will be much harder for Europe to compete once production
becomes our forte again. Europe will be stuck with the dominant
reference currency. Then they'll go for tariffs...
> It is a lot more complicated than that on paper, but in many ways
> it's just that simple. Fixing the problem isn't that simple, because
> our Capitalism currently works "big business" is encouraged to make as
> much money as it possibly can even at the expense of US jobs.
The "expense of US jobs" thing is based on the assumption
that the mutant-bizarro post-WWII boom was gonna go on
forever. It wasn't. Globalization is one
part of this, but that is a stopgap - the real
change is automation, which continues to make strides.
What we have to ask ourselves is - how are the proceeds of
production to be distributed once humans decline as
a factor of production to the point of negligibility?
> Companies like Ford, GM, Fender and now CF Martin start to just become
> distributors of goods made outside the US.
>
And that is fine. So long as the goods work properly.
> It's only a matter of time before a Mexican or Chinese guitar company
> rises up that not only set up a factory for low end guitars, but also
> has skilled luthier (guitar maker) willing to accept less than 1/3 of
> what an American guitar maker would require. Also the executives in
> the Mexican corporations could be paid less, because well because
> there's a difference in cost of living and cultural needs.
Mexico isn't that cheap anymore. After a while, it's
like water - it all equalizes out. It'll never be perfectly
equal - Mexicans don't need nor want all the Nanny State
froofraw we do - but most Mexicans are perfectly *fine* there.
We get people over the borders who got caught in the gears,
and Mexico still has a few rich families with a frightening
concentration of the nation's wealth.
And, if you'll notice, Mexico now has trouble with Central
Americans immigrating *there*.
> Again, this
> whole trade-block idea that has worked so well for the European Union
> won't work here because of the huge offset between culture and
> lifestyle in Mexico vs the US.
>
It has worked *dramatically*. Perot's giant sucking sound never
happened.
> What actually happens is Mexicos economy gets a boost and our takes a
> hit and that pattern continues until the playing field is leveled out
> and the America we once knew is gone completely.
No, because goods get cheaper until people can afford pretty much
what they want without having to work as much. That is simply
the fact of it - year by year, people work less for more goods.
We're excluding oil for now. And real estate. Them's big
excludes, but .... Oil? The traders are puffed up on Katrina
perturbations to pricing models. Somebody will figure out it's
rot, drop the dominant price and corner the market ( after
OPEC goes through another round of bull). Real estate?
Too much mortgage money and a bad dereg peaked a bad inflation
spike. Prices correct, repos happen ala the SNL debacle, and
life goes on.
--
Les Cargill
PapaCarl
You may be right.....and that is exactly what the finish is.....sanded down
wood, NO finish. I think it is a big part of the problem, but I don't think
it is all of it. I wonder if your all HPL axe has been through some temp
extremes. I live in the Northeast, USA......I took that thing, perfect
setup, perfect tune......loved it......to a gig, it was January and very
cold outside....when I got there, I had to sit it on top of a heater for
about 45 minutes before I could even get it playable, when I took it out of
the case, the strings were on the fretboard. Even the authorized Martin
dealer admitted that was the HPL reacting to temp extremes.....I will admit,
when I took it to North Carolina, to the beach.....in the summer.....the
guitar was very happy.
housemouse
wrote:
> On Mar 12, 11:36 pm, housemouse <housemo...@klassmaster.com> wrote:
> > Just because manufacturing is moving out
> > of the USA, doesn't mean folks in the USA will all be working retail.
> > The USA economy is doing better now, even with all the current
> > problems, than it was in the 1970's when all the manufacturing was
> > still here!
>
> By what measure? Many Economist would argue with you and say our
> economy today is much worse. Look at US trade deficit and the ever
> decreasing value of the US dollar. Those are the metrics that get to
> the bottom line. Since my other recent post about the ignorance and
> sins of the "boomer" generation.
Well, unemployment was around 9% in the mid 70's now it is what, 4.8%?
In the mid '70's inflation was up to 14%, now it's about 4%
Check out what Interest rates in the late 1970's were and compare to
now. Ultra high interest rates would be pretty good if you had a lot
of money in the bank, but if you were a working Joe borrowing money
for a car, or getting a mortgage...not so great.
I seem to remember in the early 1980's that unemployment was even
worse than in the 70's. Maybe that is what drove teenagers to hair
metal.
>
> >It would sure be great to keep all of these jobs here,
> > but I just don't see it happening.
>
> By not keeping these jobs here what we create is dependence on other
> countries. On the surface that seems like a good thing, we boost their
One thing that creates a real dependence on other countries is the 9.4
trillion dollar national debt. A lot of which is financed by countries
such as China. I think it's almost 50% foreign countries that own the
T-bills that finance this debt. Think that gives them any leverage
over trade restrictions and tariffs?? I'm guessing this contributes to
the decline in the value of the dollar as well.
Look, you've got a lot of good points. I'm not really arguing with
you. It's just that I don't see our government stopping the cheap
imports - not either party, until we decrease the financial leverage
other countries have over us. You can blame the boomers for buying
cheaper products if you want, but that's just human nature to want to
save money. But you might want to put some blame on the government for
borrowing money left and right, and in return, having to give very
favorable and one side trade deals.
AJ
2g2000hsn.googlegroups.com>, house...@klassmaster.com says...
years would be 10-15% if it were measured using a basket of only
American made goods and they counted energy and food the same as was
done in the 70s. The way employment is measured has been changed as
well, to make the numbers look better.
But here's a new one. The CEO of DOW was on CNBC yesterday and asked
about the manufacturing overseas and the world's largest petro chemical
plant Dow is building in Kuwait. The reason - cheap controllable energy
costs for oil and gas from the nationalized oil company, raw materials
for what Dow makes. Other oil producers also have nationalized their oil
production and have cheap energy prices, including Iraq. I'm beginning
to think we're going to achieve energy independence much faster than
anyone expected - it will be so expensive the common Joe won't be able
to afford it. Maybe Walmart will start importing gasoline from China and
selling it for $1.25 gallon ;-)
Derek
>The problem can really be broken down into a paragraph or so, it
>starts with a question: What does the US currently produce/export at a
>competitive price that the rest of the world wants to buy?
How about education? We are #1 in the world, and it ain't even
close.
>The answer can be found by looking at the trade deficit and the answer
>is not much at all. Looking at what we were exporting 20 years ago
>compared to today it's sad. So that's a problem we have to solve. If
>we don't solve it then what happens is we become pure consumers,
>exporting no goods and service only our US dollars to buy goods and
>service. So what happens to the US dollar in this scenario? It
>declines to the point that it's eventually worth nothing to the rest
>of the world and then we become a third-world country, completely
>reliant on products from other countries, demanding constant
>entertainment and having noting to offer the rest of the world (did I
>mention this is all the baby boomer generations fault :)
I am with Les on this one. I think the trade deficit talk is mainly
political rhetoric. Who cares if we buy more than we export?
As you have pointed out, and Les quoted stats, other than agriculture
(still HUGE) we do not make as many goods to export as we did before.
Services/intelectual property, education, and maybe most important,
cultural trends are our biggest "products". Just take Hollywood
alone. The goods and impact on global economy is monumental.
> It is a lot more complicated than that on paper, but in many ways
>it's just that simple. Fixing the problem isn't that simple, because
>our Capitalism currently works "big business" is encouraged to make as
>much money as it possibly can even at the expense of US jobs.
>Companies like Ford, GM, Fender and now CF Martin start to just become
>distributors of goods made outside the US.
"big business is encouraged to make as much $ as it possibly can at
the expense of US jobs". When has that ever NOT been true? We are
not unique in this, every country has this same dynamic, even so
called "socialist" ones.
>It's only a matter of time before a Mexican or Chinese guitar company
>rises up that not only set up a factory for low end guitars, but also
>has skilled luthier (guitar maker) willing to accept less than 1/3 of
>what an American guitar maker would require. Also the executives in
>the Mexican corporations could be paid less, because well because
>there's a difference in cost of living and cultural needs. Again, this
>whole trade-block idea that has worked so well for the European Union
>won't work here because of the huge offset between culture and
>lifestyle in Mexico vs the US.
That time is already here and has been here for quite a while. You
could point to the 70's when Ibanez were making guitars equal to or
better than Gibsons, and were blatant clones.
Or play a Samick or Eastman guitar.
The Mexican thing doesn't work quite like it does here. In Mexico, US
corps negotiate with the Gov't who acts as the union for their
workers.
For instance, when US Carbide put a plant in Juarez, they negotiated
pay structure, working hours, benefits which include built in bus
fare, an onsite pharmacy/clinic for the workers, and savings program.
This was all negotiated by the Mexican Labor Dept.
>What actually happens is Mexicos economy gets a boost and our takes a
>hit and that pattern continues until the playing field is leveled out
>and the America we once knew is gone completely.
Is that a bad thing? We are less than 10% of the world's population
and we hold/consume approxiamtelely 80% of it's resouces. Seems a bit
unbalanced if you ask me.
A more global economy and interdependency between markets and nations
sounds better than going to war over control of desert oil reserves
imo.
ythread
"Les Cargill" <lcar...@cfl.rr.com> wrote in message
news:47d9e7be$0$24094$4c36...@roadrunner.com...
Double-entry accounting is to balance the equation assets - liabilities =
equity with debit and credits in T-accounts.
I'm not sure what you are saying but if your liabilities increase your
equity drops. You might want to review balance sheets.
If I'm missing something sorry. This thread is kind of boring and I didn't
read the whole thing. I just saw double-entry accounting and got a cold
shiver up my spine.
Jim
mirt54
> MartinGibsonTaylor wrote:
<snip>
> "big business is encouraged to make as much $ as it possibly can at
> the expense of US jobs". When has that ever NOT been true? We are
> not unique in this, every country has this same dynamic, even so
> called "socialist" ones.
>
<snip>
Right, only it wasn't always jobs. It is expoitation, also sometimes
called slavery. SOME group(s) of people have been exploited since the
socialization of mankind began. I'ts how the powerful obtain and keep
their wealth and power. We ooh and ahh over King Tut's gold and
people spend money to stand in line in Newport RI to tour the summer
mansions of Vanderbilt, Carnegie, et al, yet this wealth was all
obtained through the exploitation of human beings. History repeats
itself. Marty
Derek
>
> Right, only it wasn't always jobs. It is expoitation, also sometimes
> called slavery. SOME group(s) of people have been exploited since the
> socialization of mankind began. I'ts how the powerful obtain and keep
> their wealth and power. We ooh and ahh over King Tut's gold and
> people spend money to stand in line in Newport RI to tour the summer
> mansions of Vanderbilt, Carnegie, et al, yet this wealth was all
> obtained through the exploitation of human beings. History repeats
> itself. Marty
Marty, while I don't disagree with your view, it really is a
complicated issue though.
I mean, just ask the 12 year old factory worker in Latin America, SE
Asia or China if he feels exploited.
From most of what I have seen, they are glad for the job so they can
eat regularly.
In this country we take such things for granted because even those of
whom we consider "poverty level" are well off compared to a majority
of the world.
It certainly makes me question how important it is for me to continue
to be a mindless consumer and not much else.
My family and I are on a quest to get out of debt, and down size our
lifestyle so we will have more $ to give to charity.
mirt54
You are absolutely correct. I really didn't mean to imply that people
don't accept and thankfully accept being exploited. It's all just a
matter of degree usually. It's called survival. Marty
MartinGibsonTaylor
> MartinGibsonTaylor wrote:
> >The problem can really be broken down into a paragraph or so, it
> >starts with a question: What does the US currently produce/export at a
> >competitive price that the rest of the world wants to buy?
>
> How about education? We are #1 in the world, and it ain't even
> close.
>
I assume you ment to say we are not #1 in the world.... That's true
the public education system has deteriorated. Not surpisingly most
educators or liberal democrats, but that's another thread. I'm more
independant than anything these days, finding many faults in both
Republican and Democratic parties, I think we need major reform and
fast, but that won't happen.
> >The answer can be found by looking at the trade deficit and the answer
> >is not much at all. Looking at what we were exporting 20 years ago
> >compared to today it's sad. So that's a problem we have to solve. If
> >we don't solve it then what happens is we become pure consumers,
> >exporting no goods and service only our US dollars to buy goods and
> >service. So what happens to the US dollar in this scenario? It
> >declines to the point that it's eventually worth nothing to the rest
> >of the world and then we become a third-world country, completely
> >reliant on products from other countries, demanding constant
> >entertainment and having noting to offer the rest of the world (did I
> >mention this is all the baby boomer generations fault :)
>
> I am with Les on this one. I think the trade deficit talk is mainly
> political rhetoric. Who cares if we buy more than we export?
>
I don't know where to start for "why we should care". The reason we
should care is because of the dependence this creates. The question is
what is the United States. Beyond a body of land we are a people who
have certain ethical, moral standards that define us. We have borders
and melting pot as we are we have culture. These things define and our
jobs exist because of the products and services we sell. When those
products are manufactured offshore in countries that have sharp views
counter to ours (in the case of China even a hostile edge towarss our
govenrment lately), that have a very different perspective of moral,
ethics and culture what we do is stab our selves in the back.
The idea of globalization is that this helps keep peace, but it
doesn't address each countries unique attributes. It would work if we
were all shared the same values and government, but we don't. Each
country is unique. So how can this now hurt us? How can this not be a
security threat?
> As you have pointed out, and Les quoted stats, other than agriculture
> (still HUGE) we do not make as many goods to export as we did before.
>
and has it's declining every year.
> Services/intelectual property, education, and maybe most important,
> cultural trends are our biggest "products". Just take Hollywood
> alone. The goods and impact on global economy is monumental.
>
But stop and think about that for a second... I listed entertainment
as one of our top exports, it really is. But how sad is that and it
should be noted that Hollywood is off shoring too now. Look at how
many motion pictures are being filmed outside of the US to save cost.
Ocassionally these stories make the press, there was a big to-do about
the last Superman film (Superman Returns) not being filmed in New York
City. Michael Bay said in an interview he personally took a pay cut in
order to allow his 2007 summer blockbuster Transformers to be filmed
on US soil.
There are special effects houses overseas in Asia competing with local
companies such as Industrial Light & Magic and doing things cheaper.
They can do things cheaper for the same reasons Mexican workers can
build guitars for less, because to them $3.00 an hour is a damn good
wage. So the answer is not to balance the playing field, because it
doesn't work like that. What happens is the US dollar goes into free
fall, our minimum wage workers may make $7.50 an hour, but that $7.50
won't buy them much, our economy and culture collapse as the other
counties prosper and they can sell to one another as well. Eventually
the US becomes useless.
> > It is a lot more complicated than that on paper, but in many ways
> >it's just that simple. Fixing the problem isn't that simple, because
> >our Capitalism currently works "big business" is encouraged to make as
> >much money as it possibly can even at the expense of US jobs.
> >Companies like Ford, GM, Fender and now CF Martin start to just become
> >distributors of goods made outside the US.
>
> "big business is encouraged to make as much $ as it possibly can at
> the expense of US jobs". When has that ever NOT been true? We are
> not unique in this, every country has this same dynamic, even so
> called "socialist" ones.
No it's not true globally. Have a closer look at the Japanese culture
as an example. The Japanese people will buy a Japanese made product
over a US made product regardless of quality differences based on
principle. They do import goods from the US and other places, but they
keep most of it at home and they protect their culture.
>
> >It's only a matter of time before a Mexican or Chinese guitar company
> >rises up that not only set up a factory for low end guitars, but also
> >has skilled luthier (guitar maker) willing to accept less than 1/3 of
> >what an American guitar maker would require. Also the executives in
> >the Mexican corporations could be paid less, because well because
> >there's a difference in cost of living and cultural needs. Again, this
> >whole trade-block idea that has worked so well for the European Union
> >won't work here because of the huge offset between culture and
> >lifestyle in Mexico vs the US.
>
> That time is already here and has been here for quite a while. You
> could point to the 70's when Ibanez were making guitars equal to or
> better than Gibsons, and were blatant clones.
>
I was going to mention Ibanez, yep that's an example, but we've had
high end guitars made here all this time and as popular as brands like
Ibanez and Takamine have become with professionals companies like CF
Martin, Fedner, Gibson, etc.. still have outsold them. But with CF
Martin and Fender (two of the last iconic American guitar makers)
importing their name-brand product from Mexico the total end of
American craftsmanship is in sight.
Keeping skilled workers at home should be a priority.
> Or play a Samick or Eastman guitar.
>
> The Mexican thing doesn't work quite like it does here. In Mexico, US
> corps negotiate with the Gov't who acts as the union for their
> workers.
>
Rigfht, NAFTA. NAFTA has proven to be mostly useless. In fact most
agree all it has really done is boost the Mexican economy with netrual
to negative effect on our own. NAFTA needs reform.
> For instance, when US Carbide put a plant in Juarez, they negotiated
> pay structure, working hours, benefits which include built in bus
> fare, an onsite pharmacy/clinic for the workers, and savings program.
> This was all negotiated by the Mexican Labor Dept.
>
> >What actually happens is Mexicos economy gets a boost and our takes a
> >hit and that pattern continues until the playing field is leveled out
> >and the America we once knew is gone completely.
>
> Is that a bad thing? We are less than 10% of the world's population
> and we hold/consume approxiamtelely 80% of it's resouces. Seems a bit
> unbalanced if you ask me.
>
We are a soverign nation, for better or worse those nations have their
government and leadership. In extreme cases of need we should get
involved through war or aid (depending on the need), otherwise we
should focus on managing America sustaining our own culture, heritage
and government. Have you stopped to see the irony in your comment?
Perhaps we're consuming 80% of the resources because WE DON'T PRODUCE
A DAMN THING HERE ANYMORE
I think history will record the baby boomer generation as being the
big generation responsible for the down fall of the United States of
America, because of these flawed ideas and what I would call the abuse
of Capitalism, sell out US jobs to make as much as possible for those
at the top, that would be the conservative boomer attitude. Combine
that with the "let's make the world hold hands" mentality of the
boomer and the over indulgence in materialism and entertainment from
everyone and that' pretty much got us where we are. There is no
escape.
> A more global economy and interdependency between markets and nations
> sounds better than going to war over control of desert oil reserves
> imo.
It's fools dream that interdependency is going to bring peace long
term. It completely ignores our differences as countries. The US and
China, our interdependency on trade (they want our dollars, we want
their goods) is an example, when the deficit slides in their favor
(which it is now), they have the upper hand and should we go to war
with them over something, we would be hurting because of trade being
broken (big time) China sells their goods all over the world.
Again, this doesn't bring peace it's actually a threat to national
security.
Les Cargill
> On Mar 14, 11:23 am, Derek <de...@ycoaoffice.com> wrote:
>> MartinGibsonTaylor wrote:
> <snip>
>> "big business is encouraged to make as much $ as it possibly can at
>> the expense of US jobs". When has that ever NOT been true? We are
>> not unique in this, every country has this same dynamic, even so
>> called "socialist" ones.
>>
>
>
> <snip>
>
> Right, only it wasn't always jobs. It is expoitation, also sometimes
> called slavery. SOME group(s) of people have been exploited since the
> socialization of mankind began.
If you mean something like the Egyptian/Persian empires, yes. But I
suspect people who participated in those could have walked out - the
Exodus story is such a story. And Cyrus the Great tried to
abolish slavery.
One story emerging is that the Egyptians weren't really slaveholders -
that the people who built the pyramids were paid labor ( and they say,
fairly well paid ). Since Egypt is believed to have built pyramids
as large public works to employ people, this makes sense.
> I'ts how the powerful obtain and keep
> their wealth and power. We ooh and ahh over King Tut's gold and
> people spend money to stand in line in Newport RI to tour the summer
> mansions of Vanderbilt, Carnegie, et al, yet this wealth was all
> obtained through the exploitation of human beings.
But! what we see from people like the Mellons, the Carnegies, the
Rockefellers is some sort of product or service that replaces
a more expensive product or service, leaving money on the table for
end consumers. The "competitive" stuff talked about in antitrust
is a misreading of Adam Smith - who was talking about royal
charter corporations and mercantilism. I don't know how
the asymmetry of power in negotiations between Standard Oil
and railroads constitutes a legal problem - maybe it does,
since they're common carriers - but they were also run on
a for-profit basis.
We also see that efforts to curtail this wealth have had consequences.
And that the charge to curtail this wealth was led by William
Randolph Hearst, who was one of 'em.
And when we hear people talking about "exploitation", we also notice
that the exploited didn't run off. Why? Probably because to have
run off would have meant a materially worse life for them. An
Appalachian coal miner did what he did because subsistence
farming and hunting were harder.
For real, dire exploitation you have to go to the Reconstruction South,
to situations like the 1927 Greenville Flood, where armed men kept
people from evacuating to preserve land value. If it keep on rainin',
levee gonna break....
> History repeats
> itself. Marty
Not particularly, in this case. WWII was the event that created a new
equilibrium for labor that better reflected the transition from
human muscle power to machines.
--
Les Cargill
Les Cargill
I was talking about flows, not balances. And I am not sure "equity"
applies in this case. Indeed, I think that's the mistake. We're
not talking about, say, a retail outfit - we're talking about
trade.
--
Les Cargill
ythread
That's what I'm talking about. IMHO. May want to pick another analogy. Let's
face it. You're a musician not an accountant. And for that you should be
glad. :-)
Jim
BBA
mirt54
Exactly. Exploitation is in degrees. At one end is slavery. At the
other is middle-upper corp. managers who are still being exploited,
but are relatively content at it...they are still contributing to the
wealthy shareholders. At both extremes one can walk away (usually
unless slaves are bound and chained/guarded). But where do you go?
Yes sometimes the reality is you stay for lack of alternatives.
An
> Appalachian coal miner did what he did because subsistence
> farming and hunting were harder.
>
> For real, dire exploitation you have to go to the Reconstruction South,
> to situations like the 1927 Greenville Flood, where armed men kept
> people from evacuating to preserve land value. If it keep on rainin',
> levee gonna break....
>
> > History repeats
>
> > itself. Marty
>
> Not particularly, in this case. WWII was the event that created a new
> equilibrium for labor that better reflected the transition from
> human muscle power to machines.
Well that period is unique and I'm sure there are other exceptions,
but that period didn't last either..it's gone already. A small
duration of time in history. And it's the fact that the allies had
crushed the other manufacturing giants in WWII that led the labor
movement to make it's gains in the 50's and 60's. Because the USA and
a few others had the only manufacturing capacity during those years,
the corporations had to give in to union demands until the point in
the early seventies where steel workers were only working three-
quarters of a year and getting paid for 12 months. My brother worked
in Youngstown OH, and he actually got a "vacation bonus" as well.
That's when Japan was rebuilding, and US corporations were already
making plans to shift production overseas...and here we are. Where
are the steel mills now? Yes, that's capitalism, like it or not. As
someone stated previously, we have reaped what we have sown as US
citizens.
>
> --
> Les Cargill- Hide quoted text -
Les Cargill
Could be. But economists tend to deal in flows.
Let's
> face it. You're a musician not an accountant. And for that you should be
> glad. :-)
>
> Jim
> BBA
>
>
FOR SURE!
--
Les Cargill
Les Cargill
Sure. But people also become shareholders - ordinary people. Financial
holdings are as diverse as they've ever been.
> An
>> Appalachian coal miner did what he did because subsistence
>> farming and hunting were harder.
>>
>> For real, dire exploitation you have to go to the Reconstruction South,
>> to situations like the 1927 Greenville Flood, where armed men kept
>> people from evacuating to preserve land value. If it keep on rainin',
>> levee gonna break....
>>
>> > History repeats
>>
>>> itself. Marty
>> Not particularly, in this case. WWII was the event that created a new
>> equilibrium for labor that better reflected the transition from
>> human muscle power to machines.
>
> Well that period is unique and I'm sure there are other exceptions,
> but that period didn't last either..it's gone already. A small
> duration of time in history. And it's the fact that the allies had
> crushed the other manufacturing giants in WWII that led the labor
> movement to make it's gains in the 50's and 60's.
Well, there was a climate in which the cost of labor
just didn't matter as much, and the unions helped
manage the workforce.
> Because the USA and
> a few others had the only manufacturing capacity during those years,
> the corporations had to give in to union demands until the point in
> the early seventies where steel workers were only working three-
> quarters of a year and getting paid for 12 months. My brother worked
> in Youngstown OH, and he actually got a "vacation bonus" as well.
And that would have been fine had the companies been able to
remain competitive. But because steel was so dominated by Americans
during such a long time, they weren't used to things
like tech refresh and thinking about efficiency.
There's nothing wrong with people making good money. People who
think lower wages are always better for companies are
flat wrong.
> That's when Japan was rebuilding, and US corporations were already
> making plans to shift production overseas...and here we are. Where
> are the steel mills now?
A lot of them are still in the US. But they don't run through as
much energy as they used to.
> Yes, that's capitalism, like it or not. As
> someone stated previously, we have reaped what we have sown as US
> citizens.
>> --
>> Les Cargill- Hide quoted text -
>>
>> - Show quoted text -
>
--
Les Cargill
Peter Huggins
Fender buy out. >>>
I assume you mean Westerly, RI. At the time Guild sold out to Fender,
the Westerly facility was already in a deterioated condition. After cost
comparision, Fender determined it would be too prohibitive to rebuild
the crumbling building, buy new machinery, etc. so the decision was made
to shift production to California. This was not an overnight decision,
it still took about five years for Fender to shift production. First to
Corona CA, later to Tacoma WA after their purchase of the Tacoma Guitar
company. The Westerly employees were all offered their jobs at the
California facility, but not one person wanted to make the move!
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