what is the date of the CBS buyout of Fender?
Porl
time?
Tony Meloche
>
> Does anyone know exact dates and/or have any idea of product output at the
> time?
The sale was early 1965 (March, I think, but I'm not sure), and I'm
not sure what you mean by "product output at the time". They were,
around that time, backordered about 200,000 units on the Mustang, a
really popular garage band guitar at that time. "Pre-CBS" parts
continued to be used for quite a while - easily into 1966 on some
parts. Hope that was some help.
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Parker
the operations January 5th or 6th of 1966. Remember they had lots of
'pre-CBS' stock at that time so a Fender product made in 1966 could easily
have been made with 'pre-CBS' parts. And production techniques and changes
would have taken a bit of time to convert to.
Parker
"Tony Meloche" <amel...@remc11.k12.mi.us> wrote in message
news:38F9C7...@remc11.k12.mi.us...
Gregzy
Porl <imar...@ozemail.com.au> wrote in message
news:94jK4.6646$5D.1...@ozemail.com.au...
> Does anyone know exact dates and/or have any idea of product output at the
> time?
The Fender sale to CBS took effect on January 1, 1965. This being a Friday
and a holiday it's likely that "CBS" production didn't take over until
Monday January 4, 1965. At the end of 1964 Fender was making about 1500
instruments per week and employed about 600 people. The company was
purchased by CBS for $13 million. As has been previously stated many
"pre-CBS" parts were available and used well into 1966. The CBS influence
actually took place over the course of a year or so as they cut costs and
the component parts were replaced by those lacking in the previous detail to
quality such as the wire used to wind pickups.
This information can be found in "The Fender Book" by Tony Bacon and Paul
Day. More information (though a conflicting date of official take over
(January 3,1965) can be found at http://www.provide.net/~cfh/fender.html
Hope this helps.
Gregzy
Gregzy
Gregzy <gre...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:8dd22...@enews1.newsguy.com...
5, 1965 as the official day of take over.
This is usually a very reliable source so it's likely that the actual date
was January 5, 1965.
Gregzy
>
>
David Kieltyka
> Tony's right (as usual) about the purchase date and CBS actually
> took over the operations January 5th or 6th of 1966.
That's not correct. CBS took over Fender on January 5, 1965. Negotiations
had begun in August or September of 1964. A little known fact: Leo Fender
offered to sell the company for $2,000,000 to Don Randall, head of Fender
Sales, in mid-1963. Randall turned him down.
> Remember they had lots of 'pre-CBS' stock at that time so a Fender product
> made in 1966 could easily have been made with 'pre-CBS' parts. And
> production techniques and changes would have taken a bit of time to
convert
> to.
There wasn't much if any "pre-CBS" stuff left at Fender by 1966. Parts
manufactured in '64 would've been surely used up in '65. Remember, at this
time the company was selling guitars & amps as fast as they could make 'em.
Also, CBS moved swiftly to implement their "system." By 1966 most of the
practices CBS Fender became notorious for were already in place.
-Dave-
Parker
office/lab on January 4th. And Fender products made in a good part of '65
were with 'pre-CBS' parts. 1966 would definitely be in the CBS period.
"Parker" <par...@airmail.net> wrote in message
news:8A007EF97275C6DE.9702D3D8...@lp.airnews.net...
> Tony's right (as usual) about the purchase date and CBS actually took over
> 'pre-CBS' stock at that time so a Fender product made in 1966 could easily
> have been made with 'pre-CBS' parts. And production techniques and changes
> would have taken a bit of time to convert to.
>
>
> "Tony Meloche" <amel...@remc11.k12.mi.us> wrote in message
> news:38F9C7...@remc11.k12.mi.us...
> > Porl wrote:
> > >
> the
> > > time?
> >
> >
Gregzy
David Kieltyka <dav...@msn.com> wrote in message
news:#Z1ub4$p$GA.321@cpmsnbbsa04...
> Parker wrote:
>
> > Tony's right (as usual) about the purchase date and CBS actually
> > took over the operations January 5th or 6th of 1966.
>
> had begun in August or September of 1964. A little known fact: Leo Fender
> offered to sell the company for $2,000,000 to Don Randall, head of Fender
> Sales, in mid-1963. Randall turned him down.
Actually it was offered to Randall for $1.5 million. Randall negotiated the
sale of Fender
which was first offered to Baldwin Piano and Organ. (who later bought
Gretsch in 1967).
The Baldwin deal turned out to be unsatisfactory so it was then offered to
CBS whose initial offer
was quite low. After further negotiations a more acceptable price was
arrived at, so acceptable
that Fender at first didn't believe the figure Randall presented to him,
$13 million. Don Randall while
the head of Fender sales named nearly all of the Fender instruments with
the exception of the Precision Bass
which was Leo Fender's model name.
>
> > Remember they had lots of 'pre-CBS' stock at that time so a Fender
product
> > made in 1966 could easily have been made with 'pre-CBS' parts. And
> > production techniques and changes would have taken a bit of time to
> convert
> > to.
>
> There wasn't much if any "pre-CBS" stuff left at Fender by 1966. Parts
> manufactured in '64 would've been surely used up in '65. Remember, at this
> time the company was selling guitars & amps as fast as they could make
'em.
> Also, CBS moved swiftly to implement their "system." By 1966 most of the
> practices CBS Fender became notorious for were already in place.
Many of the component parts manufactured by Fender remained at pre-CBS
specifications and were therefore "pre-CBS" until well into 1965/66 when
the Fender products then completely took on the CBS aura with the CBS
re-designs i.e.: less sculpturing to the bodies, large headstocks, cheaper
plastic pickguards, cheaper "F" stamped machine heads, flat as opposed to
staggered pole-pieced pickups etc. and later into 1968 when the poly
finishes replaced the nitro finishes .
The amp designs remained the same until 1968 with the introduction of
the first "Silver-faced" amps and their re-designed circuits (though some of
the silver-faced amps remained unchanged in design until the early 70's).
CBS did introduce the first "solid state" versions of some amp models in
1966.
It is usually accepted that that the period from mid/late 1964 just
prior to the CBS purchase (in 1965) until 1966 was a period of transition
and the "CBS Era" begins in 1966. The CBS "system" was one of higher
production numbers and cheaper production methods to support a very top
heavy managerial system. The quality did suffer greatly as profit not
product was the emphasis.
The really strange thing I find is that when CBS sold Fender to William
Shultz's (then-president of Fender) investors group in 1985 it was for $12.5
million. Less than Leo had sold it for twenty years before.
Gregzy
>
> -Dave-
>
>
Wolfgang
> Shultz's (then-president of Fender) investors group in 1985 it was for
$12.5
> million. Less than Leo had sold it for twenty years before.
> Gregzy
>
> >
> > -Dave-
> >
CBS had made all the money they wanted and was starting to loose money
on the venture.
They sold "Fender" to Shultz's group without a factory or equipment in
the USA! I think that's why they got such a good deal, they basically only
bought a name with no means to produce a product.
Wolfgang
This Week In Rock History
http://www3.ns.sympatico.ca/little.bastard
Gregzy <gre...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:8dejr...@enews2.newsguy.com...
David P. Richardson
can't be but I got one.Bought it in 1980 for $35 bucks. fine guitar too. It may
be peoples opinion of what a lot of leftover stock may be, mine could easily
have been an old strat neck with modification to the headstock and stamped '66.
It was a "B" model and is really nice but you can see there was a decal under
the painted headstock, certainly no one would "Fake" a coronado neck with a
preCBS strat/mustang neck back before '80. It doesn't feel like my true '68
strat neck, the finish feels different and is also an "A" model. There are
probably many exceptions to the rule.
DPR
Parker wrote:
> I goofed. CBS took over Fender on January 5th 1965. Leo cleaned out his
> office/lab on January 4th. And Fender products made in a good part of '65
> were with 'pre-CBS' parts. 1966 would definitely be in the CBS period.
> "Parker" <par...@airmail.net> wrote in message
> news:8A007EF97275C6DE.9702D3D8...@lp.airnews.net...
> > Tony's right (as usual) about the purchase date and CBS actually took over
> > the operations January 5th or 6th of 1966. Remember they had lots of
> > 'pre-CBS' stock at that time so a Fender product made in 1966 could easily
> > have been made with 'pre-CBS' parts. And production techniques and changes
> > would have taken a bit of time to convert to.
> >
John Sessoms
>
> I goofed. CBS took over Fender on January 5th 1965. Leo cleaned out his
> office/lab on January 4th. And Fender products made in a good part of '65
> were with 'pre-CBS' parts. 1966 would definitely be in the CBS period.
Still and all, 66 is still good stuff even if it is after the CBS buyout. It's
not until after 68 that CBS started making changes, and some things had still
not changed even by the time CBS sold the name in 82.
John Sessoms
>
> > The really strange thing I find is that when CBS sold Fender to William
> > Shultz's (then-president of Fender) investors group in 1985 it was for
> $12.5
> > million. Less than Leo had sold it for twenty years before.
> > Gregzy
> >
> > >
> > > -Dave-
> > >
>
> CBS had made all the money they wanted and was starting to loose money
> on the venture.
CBS did NOT make all the money they wanted from Fender, or they wouldn't have
sold it.
Tony Meloche
>
> David Kieltyka <dav...@msn.com> wrote in message
> news:#Z1ub4$p$GA.321@cpmsnbbsa04...
> > Parker wrote:
> >
> > > took over the operations January 5th or 6th of 1966.
> >
> > had begun in August or September of 1964. A little known fact: Leo Fender
> > offered to sell the company for $2,000,000 to Don Randall, head of Fender
> > Sales, in mid-1963. Randall turned him down.
>
> Actually it was offered to Randall for $1.5 million. Randall negotiated the
> sale of Fender
> which was first offered to Baldwin Piano and Organ. (who later bought
> Gretsch in 1967).
> The Baldwin deal turned out to be unsatisfactory so it was then offered to
> CBS whose initial offer
> was quite low. After further negotiations a more acceptable price was
> arrived at, so acceptable
> that Fender at first didn't believe the figure Randall presented to him,
> $13 million. Don Randall while
> the head of Fender sales named nearly all of the Fender instruments with
> the exception of the Precision Bass
> which was Leo Fender's model name.
>
> >
> product
> > > made in 1966 could easily have been made with 'pre-CBS' parts. And
> > > production techniques and changes would have taken a bit of time to
> > convert
> > > to.
> >
> > manufactured in '64 would've been surely used up in '65. Remember, at this
> > time the company was selling guitars & amps as fast as they could make
> 'em.
> > Also, CBS moved swiftly to implement their "system." By 1966 most of the
> > practices CBS Fender became notorious for were already in place.
>
> Many of the component parts manufactured by Fender remained at pre-CBS
> specifications and were therefore "pre-CBS" until well into 1965/66 when
> the Fender products then completely took on the CBS aura with the CBS
> re-designs i.e.: less sculpturing to the bodies, large headstocks, cheaper
> plastic pickguards, cheaper "F" stamped machine heads, flat as opposed to
> staggered pole-pieced pickups etc. and later into 1968 when the poly
> finishes replaced the nitro finishes .
> The amp designs remained the same until 1968 with the introduction of
> the first "Silver-faced" amps and their re-designed circuits (though some of
> the silver-faced amps remained unchanged in design until the early 70's).
> CBS did introduce the first "solid state" versions of some amp models in
> 1966.
> It is usually accepted that that the period from mid/late 1964 just
> prior to the CBS purchase (in 1965) until 1966 was a period of transition
> and the "CBS Era" begins in 1966. The CBS "system" was one of higher
> production numbers and cheaper production methods to support a very top
> heavy managerial system. The quality did suffer greatly as profit not
> product was the emphasis.
> Shultz's (then-president of Fender) investors group in 1985 it was for $12.5
> million. Less than Leo had sold it for twenty years before.
> Gregzy
Good stuff, Gregzy, and "right on" the research I've been doing
since my initial post. The January 5 figure is right on the sale (I
said in my first post I was guessing on March of that year). I wonder
if Don ever regretted not buying the company? He had a five-year
contract to continue under CBS but left well before that - "we weren't
cut from the same cloth" was the very gentlemanly way he put it. And
while Fender makes some *excellent* solid state amps today, I did play
through a couple of their first (1966) CBS-designed solid states. They
were *terrible!* Leo thought that adding a line of solid state amps was
a smart idea (believe it or not), but he thought the designs CBS's
engineers came up with were awful, too.
The Old Guy
David Kieltyka
> Actually it [Fender] was offered to Randall for $1.5 million.
Yes, Leo's original offer was for $1.5 million. He soon upped it to $2
million, though. Maybe Randall didn't take him seriously the first time. <g>
> Many of the component parts manufactured by Fender remained at
> pre-CBS specifications and were therefore "pre-CBS" until well into
> 1965/66....
Well, I guess it all depends on how you define "pre-CBS." I'd define it as
anything *made* prior to 5 January 65. Certainly a lot of pre-CBS specs
remained in place after the takeover. For example, blackface amps from '65,
'66 and '67 are all pre-CBS in spec even though they date from the CBS era.
Some of the smaller amps remained essentially pre-CBS in spec throughout
most of the '70s.
-Dave- (who loves his '66 CBS Fender Jaguar)