How can Punk Rockers afford such expensive equipment?
J. White
DJMangin
>mommy's and daddy's all rich or something?
That would be the first guess, or maybe they had (gasp) jobs before they
started in the band????
I'm betting the movie you saw was Hype right?
good movie, and even better when you use the closed captioning you can actually
understand the words to the songs then!
Brian Rost
>
> I recently rented a video about the Seattle alternative punk movement.
> One thing that's always amazed me about the punk rockers is how
> and why, in spite of their rabidly anti-establishment stances, do they
> manage
> to get such nice and such very expensive equipment. It seemed like
> almost
> every punk band featured in this movie, no matter how dreadful, were
> playing
> bright shiney new Les Pauls or other name brand American guitars
> through
> Marshall or Fender amps. As an amateur investor, I would like to
> know
> what the punker/alternative rocker's secret is. Where do they get the
> money
> their
> mommy's and daddy's all rich or something?
Credit cards? Many music stores offer time payment plans. Or maybe they
just saved up the money from their day jobs and gigs. Where there is a
will there is a way.
Besides, how much does a "shiny new American guitar" cost these days?
$500 will get you one. Ditto for the amp. $1000 is only about a month of
flipping burgers.
I do detect a subtext of griping here, i.e. the "antiestablishment" and
"two chord noise" bit. Once I had a musician friend of my brother's
stay over my house and when he saw all my gear he told my wife I must
not be able to play well because I had nice equipment. Fuck him. I have
even nicer gear now and play even better. And I bought it with my gig
money.
--
Brian Rost
3Com Corp.
978-264-1550
br...@synnet.com
*********************************************************************
Playing the bass is like dancing the limbo: how low can you go?
*********************************************************************
steve...@my-dejanews.com
Brian Rost <br...@synnet.com> wrote:
> J. White wrote:
> >
> > I recently rented a video about the Seattle alternative punk movement.
> > One thing that's always amazed me about the punk rockers is how
> > and why, in spite of their rabidly anti-establishment stances, do they
> > manage
> > to get such nice and such very expensive equipment. It seemed like
> > almost
> > every punk band featured in this movie, no matter how dreadful, were
> > playing
> > bright shiney new Les Pauls or other name brand American guitars
> > through
> > Marshall or Fender amps. As an amateur investor, I would like to
> > know
> > what the punker/alternative rocker's secret is. Where do they get the
> > money
> > to buy such expensive equipment to play their 2 chord noise? Are
> > their
> > mommy's and daddy's all rich or something?
>
'management' or label advances...
>
-----------== Posted via Deja News, The Discussion Network ==----------
http://www.dejanews.com/ Search, Read, Discuss, or Start Your Own
ca...@navpoint.com
steve...@my-dejanews.com wrote:
> Many ways: saving up their hard earned money, girlfriends with jobs,
> 'management' or label advances...
Punk is such a watered-down term these days for "big-label modern rock."
Many call Green Day "punk" but other than the faux-British accent it's just
corporate rock. There are some genuinely broke punk/hardcore bands
underground if that's what you want. Many are playing what rmmg would
consider crappy equipment, but they're only human and like their nice guitars
and amps when they can get them. Most of what passes for "punk" (since 1983
probably) has been upper-middle-class suburban kids with plenty of their
parents' spare cash to spend on equipment while ranting about their
downtrodden lifestyle.
--
Carl Christensen
Philadelphia, PA USA
E-mail: ca...@navpoint.com
Web: http://www.navpoint.com/~carl
Gatt
> I recently rented a video about the Seattle alternative punk movement.
You didn't call it grunge. You're automatically worthy of intelligent
response! :> (Was it Hype? GREAT movie, and EXTREMELY accurate, but they
don't tell you that the same bands are still playing and that the hype has
gone away.)
> One thing that's always amazed me about the punk rockers is how
> and why, in spite of their rabidly anti-establishment stances, do they manage
> to get such nice and such very expensive equipment.
Heh. You mean Marshalls and Les Pauls? Most of these folks didn't/don't
own cars, so they can afford gear. Also, many of them get representative
status or are sponsored. Every instrument company in the world wanted to
be associated with Seattle at the time, so the equipment had a way of
finding its way onstage.
It seemed like almost
> every punk band featured in this movie, no matter how dreadful, were playing
> bright shiney new Les Pauls or other name brand American guitars through
^^^^^^^^^^
There t'is. Come to the northwest now (I play at some
of the clubs seen in that movie and see some of those folks there all the
time.) You don't see Marshall stacks anymore. More likely, it's gonna be
a Fender studio tube amp sitting on a chair, a Russian tube amp or a $50
Silvertone. Guitar players use Epiphones, Carvins, Fender Squires and
banged-up old $30 Thomas Organ crybabies. There are bands that use great
gear (Mudhoney, the Trees, Floater) but they play ALL THE FREAKING TIME,
don't have many other bills get sponsorship from people like Carvin.)
> to buy such expensive equipment to play their 2 chord noise? Are their
> mommy's and daddy's all rich or something?
Yeah, that too. Or they have day jobs. Our guitar player drives a UPS
truck and makes $27 an hour. You're not gonna hear them talk about THAT
in the movie! :>
Chris Gattman | "The sky is humming,
ga...@europa.com | and my motor thunders...." -Floater
Wolfgang
wives or are still living in their parents basements.
I've yet to meet a real punk rocker that hasn't fallen into either category
once I got to know them. It makes me laugh when Billy Joe from Green Day or one of
these other new punkers talk about staving while trying to make it. Yah, starving
in a nice apartment with a wife working too and a kid. (Or is it 2 kids now???)
99.99% of all punk today is just as much of an image thing as big hair rock was
in the 80's. They make up phony press releases and hide the fact that most are
married and have kids. I'm not blaming the bands, there will always be players out
there that will do anything to make a million, and trust me most have. But of
course they hide this stuff in their bios ect. How long would most of them last if
the kids knew they were listening to 32 year old married millionaires? Punk fans?
Punks fans would hang'em out to dry.
If I want punk I'll go back to the real stuff.
My 78 cents
Wolfgang
Gatt
> Many ways: saving up their hard earned money, girlfriends with jobs,
Ouch. The running joke in Portland (okay, at least where my girlfriend
worked) is "What do strippers do every day before work? ...Drive their
boyfriends to practice." Unfortunately, there's so much truth to that it
isn't funny and more than once I found myself saying "And, yes, I have a
day job!"
> 'management' or label advances...
> >
>
> -----------== Posted via Deja News, The Discussion Network ==----------
> http://www.dejanews.com/ Search, Read, Discuss, or Start Your Own
>
>
Chris Gattman | "The sky is humming,
Alogusz
>Ouch. The running joke in Portland (okay, at least where my girlfriend
>worked) is "What do strippers do every day before work? ...Drive their
>boyfriends to practice." Unfortunately, there's so much truth to that it
>isn't funny and more than once I found myself saying "And, yes, I have a
>day job!"
>
another version is: what do strippers do to their assholes before they go to
work?
Drop them off at band practice.
++++
The Paraclete
1998 Judge's Choice - Tacoma Tortured Artist's Film Festival
1997 Student Academy Award Finalist
1997 First Place Experimental - Central Florida Film Festival
http://www.arden.net/modernarms/paraclete/para_main.htm
China king
>almostevery punk band featured in this movie, no matter how dreadful, were
>playingbright shiney new Les Pauls or other name brand American guitars
throughMarshall or Fender amps.
As an amateur investor, I would like to know
>what the punker/alternative rocker's secret is. Where do they get the money
Your all missing the obvious, This is a MOVIE, that means they have a BUDGET to
spend on props. Is'nt it possible that the filmakers just rented the best
looking instruments they could film, and said to the bands, I will put you in
my movie, but you gotta choose a guitar from the ones we have in wardrobe?.
Gatt
> As an amateur investor, I would like to know
> >what the punker/alternative rocker's secret is. Where do they get the money
>
>
> Your all missing the obvious, This is a MOVIE, that means they have a
> BUDGET to spend on props. Is'nt it possible that the filmakers just
> rented the best looking instruments they could film, and said to the
> bands, I will put you in my movie, but you gotta choose a guitar from
> the ones we have in wardrobe?.
No...the film-makers in this case would not have been able to afford that
and would not have done it anyway; they were documenting the scene as it
was (more or less), so there would be no need to "fake" it. Of course,
this is on the assumption that the movie is Hype rather than Kurt and
Courtney or something like that.
By the time that movie was made, the Seattle popularity had already
apexed. None of the bands they showed were garage bands and the kind of
money they were making off royalties, touring and interviews the previous
few years made it easy to buy stuff. Also, if you were a Seattle band of
any credential--especially a Sub Pop band--sponsorship was inevitable.
-gatt
Andrew Sachs
their equipment. That's why they are never alone with my guitar.
Andrew
Gatt
> Most of the punkers I know in Philly have never paid a dime for any of
> their equipment. That's why they are never alone with my guitar.
Heh. I know somebody like that (best equipment in town, too.)
Ironically, he can't find a gig in town anymore because he seems precisely
like the kind of asshole that will steal all your gear.
Thrush
: It's all just an image thing. Most are married with good day jobs and
: working wives or are still living in their parents basements.
: I've yet to meet a real punk rocker that hasn't fallen into either category
:once I got to know them. It makes me laugh when Billy Joe from Green Day or one
: of these other new punkers talk about staving while trying to make it. Yah,
: starving in a nice apartment with a wife working too and a kid. (Or is it 2 kids now???)
Ok, I suggest that you pick up GET IN THE VAN by Henry Rollins. I assure you
that he was definitely not married, definitely not living in his parents
basement, and definitely not rich. I won't ruin it 'cos it really is a
fascinating book, but let's just say he was starving for most of his time in
Black Flag and for quite a few years with the Rollins Band.
: 99.99% of all punk today is just as much of an image thing as big hair rock
: was in the 80's. They make up phony press releases and hide the fact that most are
:married and have kids. I'm not blaming the bands, there will always be players
: out there that will do anything to make a million, and trust me most have.
Um, I don't mean to be offensive, but where in the name of fuck do you get
your information? Most of them have made a million? Damn, son, but you have
a VERY limited exposure to music... try peeling your beedy little eyes out of
that Rolling Stone and picking up some of the local fanzines. Hell, even pick
up Flipside or Maximum Rock and Roll to see the hundreds of ads by small time
punk acts who have put it together to make a 7" or even an LP. A lot of those
bands would KILL to get famous, but that's a very small portion of the ones in
the mags... and trust me, they're NOT millionaires.
I will agree with you that there are a bunch of people out there dressed as
punks because of the image; however, there are also a lot of people that I've
been friends with for years and they still dress like punks after 15 years of
being into the scene. They're in their late 20s and early 30s and still going
to small punk shows in dives just to hear the music, feel the energy, and
holding onto a scene that a lot of people believe in.
I hate to break it to you, but punk is not much of an image in pop or
commercial music anymore. Notice that Green Day is not selling quite as many
records since Dookie, but they're also not punking out quite so much in their
music either. They're a pop band, and I seriously doubt they'd debate that at
this point...
Wolfgang
If I want punk I'll go back to the real stuff.
As for Rollins....I've got nothing but respect for the man, but remember when he started it was some 20 years ago...he was going a different route with Black Flag....and yes even though I like him I hate the thought that he's some 30 something millionaire. Then again he can't be the young man he once was cause he's got some 20-30 people who are on his payroll. If he screws up they lose their homes as do their families.
Then again I think about the house he and his band used to live in and wonder how poor they really were if they were living in a house and eating? Able to pay the rent, the gas, the power, whatever else. I couldn't have afforded any of that at his age.
Wolfgang
Thrush
:I recently rented a video about the Seattle alternative punk movement.
:One thing that's always amazed me about the punk rockers is how
:and why, in spite of their rabidly anti-establishment stances, do they
:manage to get such nice and such very expensive equipment. It seemed like
:almost every punk band featured in this movie, no matter how dreadful, were
:playing bright shiney new Les Pauls or other name brand American guitars
:through Marshall or Fender amps. As an amateur investor, I would like to
: know what the punker/alternative rocker's secret is. Where do they get the
:money to buy such expensive equipment to play their 2 chord noise? Are their
:mommy's and daddy's all rich or something?
Funny thing is that Kurt Cobain, before Nirvana got the DGC contract, had only
one decent guitar. It was a second or third-hand Fender Jaguar that he
admittedly babied and polished constantly. He also rarely played it, rather
using his old, beat-up no-namers or Hagstroms... what have you. I believe his
amp was an old Radio Shack PA set up that he'd had for years and that would
break at nearly every gig. He was definitely roughing it on the equipment
front.
Conversely, I've seen quite a few local bands (some of them might be called
punk) that are playing PRS and Gibsons, Marshall amps, etc... Why? Well, a
lot of them are into equipment more than they are into the music. Some of
them are really into the music and decide to throw every cent of their money
into the equipment when less expensive would be adequate. I know kids who are
15-16 and just decided to spend every cent of their summer job money on one
thing. Kinda silly, but they don't have any bills and they also don't realize
that living expenses add up. Should they not do this? I'm torn... I'm a
total cheap bastard and would rather save the cash and earn interest while
settling for cheaper gear. Then again, now I have monthly bills and have to
worry about paying them off... I can't really consider buying the Parker Fly
or Ernie Ball Silhouette I want without thinking about the long term or
running out of cash for rent. I had this luxury when I was 16 and could have
bought something really nice... I kinda regret not doing so now. Then again,
I know I can play now and have stuck with it... then I didn't know.
The answer to your question of what their secret is this: priorities. They
spend their money on what they want to spend their money on... if they can
save it long enough, more power to them. If their parents are rich (often the
case of the punker wearing the clean leather jacket with the clear complexion)
and offer to buy it, they'd be a fool to turn it down. Of course when they
get the shit beat out of them by someone who can see right through them, they
may have second thoughts about doing what they're doing and why.
I don't think the anti-establishment stance has anything to do with it...
musicians need instruments to play their music. Personally, I'll take a
Yamaha over just about any Gibson or Fender. I use more basic tools. Still,
some people feel comfortable with a Hamer or a PRS. If it's what works for
them and they can play, then it's their choice. Yes, I'll make fun of them
and probably grill them on the necessity, but it all boils down to what they
need to do the do. If they can justify it to themselves on something other
than cliche and appearance, then I can usually be persuaded, too. That goes
with ANY music... not just punk.
Finally, punk is a little bit more than 2 chord noise. Listen to Fugazi -
Repeater. This should give you an idea. Rites of Spring, Black Flag, the
Descendents, the Meat Puppets, the Damned... a LOT of bands out there are a
hell of a lot better than you'll give the genre credit for being. I used to
think there was nothing to it... Now I think the Blues is a vacant and very
dead beast worth being heard only by deaf mutes (read: record critics) on
prozac and ephedrine (read: SPIN critics) who pick their noses and eat the
prizes (read: ROLLING STONE critics.)
Gatt
> : It's all just an image thing. Most are married with good day jobs and
> : working wives or are still living in their parents basements.
Really? Who? Most I know and work with are college students, record
store employees, bartenders, etc.
After our most recent gig (at Satyricon in Portland) I was talking to the
sound guy, who just came off a six-week tour with a local band. He was
jonesing for ephedrine because he'd been living off eph and coffee for
over a month, sleeping in vans and driving all day. Our opener drove up
from San Francisco for the gig. We gave them our share of the door so
they'd have gas to keep going.
> : was in the 80's. They make up phony press releases and hide the fact that most are
> :married and have kids. I'm not blaming the bands, there will always be players
99 percent of the punk music--or ANY genre--out here draws no press and is
not sponsored by corporations. They don't have publicists to spin their
image (unlike, say, Metallica nowadays) and they don't make much money
doing it. They do it because they love it.
> : out there that will do anything to make a million, and trust me most have.
Made a million? Oh, gawd...
http://members.aol.com/JAMZine/home.html
> Um, I don't mean to be offensive, but where in the name of fuck do you get
> your information? Most of them have made a million? Damn, son, but you have
> a VERY limited exposure to music... try peeling your beedy little eyes out of
Second that. Ignore what MTV and Rolling Stone sell. THAT'S the image
and the hype, and the 1% of reality that sells ads for them. They create
it, not the bands. Yeah, I have a good job. I'm single, I'm 30, I live
in an apartment, I have no kids. If they're passing out millions to
bands, I don't know any punk or otherwise of the hundreds upon hundreds of
bands out here in Grunge County USA that are getting there share.
The Dandy Warhols, for example, appeared in the Something About Mary
soundtrack and Good Will Hunting. Nike offered them cash for Holiday,
which is allegedly ripping up the charts in Europe. I see Zia, the
keyboardist, at Satyricon all the time and talk to her a lot. They can
sell out any club anywhere in the northwest on any day of the week, but
they can't afford a nice touring rig between 'em.
> being into the scene. They're in their late 20s and early 30s and still going
> to small punk shows in dives just to hear the music, feel the energy, and
> holding onto a scene that a lot of people believe in.
Thanks, man. I thought I was the only one until I week ago, when some
dude I met was stressing out about turning 28. Pretty soon, between
bands, a lot of people there I'd pegged for 24 or 25 said they were 30 or
31. Guess I got another year before they put me out to pasture! :>
BTW, I gigged with Raz Rebbenack (or whatever) who was the skinny punk guy
in Kurt and Courtney that dated Love before Cobain. He'll sell you her
underwear if you're interested *cackle* That dude's been around...he knew
Syd Vicious. Got a house, got a family, but he DOESN'T have no million
dollars.
Bottom line...look at this newsgroup. Ask how many readers perform live
or in the studio right now. Ask how many are millionaires or figure out
how many you've heard of. WE ARE the music scene, and that includes you
if you're playing for other people.
Gatt
> Conversely, I've seen quite a few local bands (some of them might be called
> punk) that are playing PRS and Gibsons, Marshall amps, etc... Why? Well, a
> lot of them are into equipment more than they are into the music. Some of
Yeah...club bookies care about ticket sales, not name brands. Sadly, the
average rocker kid may think a band is better because they have better
gear, or that a band sucks because they're playing a Squier through a
Silvertone. I know a guy who told me he wouldn't by a Marshall clone amp
to put under his Marshall head, or wouldn't buy a Japanese telecaster even
if it sounded great because the "impurity" would torment him.
I'm using a Marshall JCM900 through a home-built piece of shit 2X12" cab
with generic, square-magnets and a cracked-headed, cigarette burned (!)
Les Paul flat top that I bought at a hock shop. And I get paid to play my
songs for people while he fishes around for a band that will have him.
> I don't think the anti-establishment stance has anything to do with it...
> musicians need instruments to play their music. Personally, I'll take a
> Yamaha over just about any Gibson or Fender. I use more basic tools. Still,
Whuuuuut?!!! (I use the above-mentioned Gibson and a bought-used
Telecaster. I'm cheap, but I have TASTE. ;> )
> think there was nothing to it... Now I think the Blues is a vacant and very
> dead beast worth being heard only by deaf mutes (read: record critics) on
...on corporate-radio and beer-sponsored stages at the county fairground,
where drunken slobs and ex-buttrockers yell at their kids to behave so
they can air-guitar to some Vaughan ripoff. "Well, MY GIRL DONE LEFT ME
DOWN IN TEXAS/YEAH/REALLY GETS ME DOWN/*riff*/SAID MY GIRL DONE LEFT ME
DOWN IN TEXAS..." Hell, even Gary Moore is doing blues covers. Eeesh.
Gatt
> > [] using his old, beat-up no-namers or Hagstroms... what have you. I believe his
> > [] amp was an old Radio Shack PA set up that he'd had for years and that would
> > [] break at nearly every gig. He was definitely roughing it on the equipment
> > [] front.
Right around that time, I worked in indie radio at a university in Oregon
(playing mostly Sub Pop stuff because the industrial thing was really
starting to piss me off.) Nirvana wasn't established yet.
We hauled out an old tube-driven mixer and PA from, like, the 60s and had
to patch into the board for a live performance in the lobby. The band was
called Hate Times Nine from Utah and they had a hammered-up old Les Paul
like mine.
Just about the time we got them all set up, the singer pulled out a violin
case and said he had another instrument to mic. I was a DJ, not a sound
engineer, but I had it under control until he opened the case. The violin
body was covered entirely with duct tape and he had a little acoustic
guitar mic dangling there to mic it. Punk violinists with duct-taped
instruments mixing into unreliable, ancient sound equipment in a
concrete-walled, acoustically screwed radio station lobby.
Oh, the humanity. Didn't sound great, but the band ROCKED!
That, to me, defines what late-'80s punk and "grunge" was REALLY like.
Not A Speck Of Cereal
[...]
[] Funny thing is that Kurt Cobain, before Nirvana got the DGC contract, had only
[] using his old, beat-up no-namers or Hagstroms... what have you. I believe his
[] amp was an old Radio Shack PA set up that he'd had for years and that would
[] break at nearly every gig. He was definitely roughing it on the equipment
[] front.
This explains a few things . . .
----
"It is better to debate a question without answering it than to answer a question without debating it."
-- Mark Twain
..............................................................
Remove X's from my email address above to reply
chri...@microsoft.com -- Seattle, WA.
[These opinions are personal views only and only my personal views]
Les Cargill
>
> john_...@nothere.com (Thrush) wrote:
> [...]
> [] Funny thing is that Kurt Cobain, before Nirvana got the DGC contract, had only
> [] one decent guitar. It was a second or third-hand Fender Jaguar that he
> [] admittedly babied and polished constantly. He also rarely played it, rather
> [] using his old, beat-up no-namers or Hagstroms... what have you. I believe his
> [] amp was an old Radio Shack PA set up that he'd had for years and that would
> [] break at nearly every gig. He was definitely roughing it on the equipment
> [] front.
>
> This explains a few things . . .
Yeah, in interviews he said he preferred solid
state amps because they were more robust and louder.
Greg Ginn of Black Flag was the same way.
*Shrug*. The live Nirvana stuff has pretty good punk tone, IMO.
>
> ----
> "It is better to debate a question without answering it than to answer a question without debating it."
> -- Mark Twain
> ..............................................................
> Remove X's from my email address above to reply
> chri...@microsoft.com -- Seattle, WA.
> [These opinions are personal views only and only my personal views]
--
X-No-Archive: yes
Les Cargill - lcar...@worldnet.att.net
Brian Rost
>
As for Rollins....I've got nothing but respect for the man, but
> remember when he started it was some 20 years ago...he was going a
> different route with Black Flag....and yes even though I like him I
> hate the thought that he's some 30 something millionaire.
Funny, I don't think Rollins has made his first million yet...
Dan Stanley
Didn't Steve Jones of the Sex Pistols play a LP Custom most of the time?
Somehow I have the feeling he didn't *buy* it though...
Dan
Giri Iyengar
> Playing the bass is like dancing the limbo: how low can you go?
Maybe you should keep that 5-string, eh?
..Giri
--
e-mail: giyengar "at" ford "dot" com
Gatt
> > different route with Black Flag....and yes even though I like him I
> > hate the thought that he's some 30 something millionaire.
Rollins' passing 30 was inevitable. If you're lucky, it'll happen to you
whether you think you want it or not.
He still lays it out to the crowd, which the vast majority of younger
critics can still only aspire to do. If he makes a fortune doing it, it's
honest work and just reward.
Thrush
:
:--------------DAFD6CA70A8210FC76D87F71
:Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
:Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
:
: I guess you got too upset reading my post to read the last line.
:
:> If I want punk I'll go back to the real stuff.
:>
: Get it, I'm a huge punk fan. Not a huge corporate 90's punk fan. Today it's
: just rehashed Clash and Sex Pistols dressed in a different color for the mass
: market. Less outrageous, more marketable. As for the millionaires, the
: guys you know must know shit about the business. I've got several friends
: who don't even have an album out and can demand $15,000 for a weekend show.
:That's not even counting the crap they get from their riders. (they've kept me
: in free smokes for months at a time). Add up 52 weeks and you're already
: hitting close to half a million between 4 guys even after the manager is
: paid. Hell, my band even makes $3,000 - $5,000 for a weekend, we don't
:play every weekend but it helps.
I would say conversely that your friends know quite a bit more about the
business than your average band. MOST BANDS STARVE. That is the truth... at
least for those starting out. Also true of many bands that have been around
for a long time. A lot of them have day jobs... VIDA had one of the best line
ups ever... This would be Dez Cadena (ex-Black Flag and DC3) on guitar and
vocals, George Hurley (ex Minutemen and fIREHOSE) on drums, Tom Troccoli
(ex-October Faction and solo artist) on guitar, and Bill Bowman (ex... many
other bands...) on bass. They struggled for about 3 years or so before
calling it quits earlier this year. Cadena was working construction during
the day to make it, that much I know. They certainly didn't make $15,000 a
show... maybe a few hundred in LA.
Let me ask... are they a PUNK band? If so, don't you think that they might be
the typical sellouts? I doubt they're charging only $5 at the door and it
doesn't sound like they're playing just a bar. I'm not one to point and call
names, but they don't sound like a "legitimate" punk band. If they are,
which one was or how many were in a different, moderately successful band
before that DID record? Or are they not doing all originals?
Now if they're not the punk purists that I'm referring to when I talk about my
friends, possibly. However, I know a lot of bands down in Raleigh, NC (yes,
the general area of Ben Folds Five, Squirrel Nut Zippers, Archers of Loaf,
Lustre, Corrosion of Conformity, etc...) who are kicking ass and taking
numbers without making enough money to throw around or quit their day jobs.
Music is an expensive life.
: As for Rollins....I've got nothing but respect for the man, but remember
: when he started it was some 20 years ago...he was going a different route with
: Black Flag....and yes even though I like him I hate the thought that he's
: some 30 something millionaire. Then again he can't be the young man he
:once was cause he's got some 20-30 people who are on his payroll. If he screws
: up they lose their homes as do their families.
First of all, I seriously doubt Hank's the millionaire you paint him out to
be. He works about 80 hour weeks, tours and writes constantly, and puts just
about every cent back into putting something else out on his indie labels. He
runs a fairly successful small publishing house, a small CD label, and used to
have interest in Infinite Zero (who had their deal with WEA.) The last of
these is now all him since Rick Rubin bailed... HR is going to keep putting
the stuff out on a smaller scale where he can get the rights and licenses
because he thinks the music should be out there, not because he can make a
buck on it.
Also, to further dispel this silly notion that he's a millionaire rock star
now, he only recently started investing in mutual funds and such other than
actual businesses because he realized a lot of the punk guys from the 80s were
now starving, working construction jobs that were increasingly difficult, and
even waiting tables (as is the case of Keith Morris of Black Flag/Circle Jerks
notoriety.) However, of any of the punk musicians, I believe that Rollins is
the one that deserves the money the most. Check out his work schedule and
release rate and that should warrant something. Hate it all you want, but
he's worked for it. And he pays his employees.
I say this in relation to his former bandmate Greg Ginn... if he's not a
millionaire, then he's a freaking retard. He's been sued by many of his
ex-bands for failure to pay royalties. Among those that were stiffed are
Husker Du, the Meat Puppets, members of Black Flag (including HR), Tom
Troccoli, Painted Willie, etc... Not to mention that, but Ginn has also fired
every single SST employee save Dukowski and himself. They still hock their
wares, but in an increasingly challenged manner.
: Then again I think about the house he and his band used to live in and
: wonder how poor they really were if they were living in a house and eating?
: Able to pay the rent, the gas, the power, whatever else. I couldn't have
: afforded any of that at his age.
Read the book. What house? For a while, a few members lived in an old
Church in which the band practiced... rent was about $20 a month. After
that, they and other label mates lived in the SST offices, one sleeping next
to the other. During the day, they did office work and packaged stuff for
sale or answered phones for orders or booked the gigs. At night, they did
their music thing. It was a total DIY thing the whole time. Eventually Ginn
got enough money to afford a house (which I believe may have been funded by
Ginn's father, actually...), but HR and D. Boon of the Minutemen were the
employees putting it together. Rollins ended up living in back of the house
in a shed/study that was fairly small and cramped. He slept on the ground.
And quite often, they ate once a day. They would go to a restaurant and turn
the entire tray into a salad plate... The one guy used to eat dog food on
white bread to survive. They would have fights over food occasionally.
Yup... it's a lap of luxury in punkdom!!!
Pardon me if I'm skeptical, but I don't think any punk artist (even the Sex
Pistols until they won their law suit in the 80s) was financially successful
with punk rock until the early 90s when Nirvana broke the flood gates open and
everyone cashed in on the corporate version of it all. I'm sure there were
quite a few who made a living... perhaps even a fairly comfortable living, but
I'm positive that they had to spend some serious time with maintaining and
preserving their financial positions. And if they weren't gigging, they very
probably weren't earning...
Thrush
:Yeah, in interviews [Cobian] said he preferred solid
:state amps because they were more robust and louder.
:Greg Ginn of Black Flag was the same way.
:
:*Shrug*. The live Nirvana stuff has pretty good punk tone, IMO.
yup... Ginn used a Peavey PA amp that sounded absolutely horrible for PA work,
but worked really well with his Dan Armstrong guitars to produce the sound he
wanted. He also built custom cabinets with heavy plywood and a certain type
of driver... VERY heavy cabinets. He said that the whole band loathed
moving the junk around, but that's the price you pay for the sound you
want. Unique guy, Ginn. A crappy and evil businessman, but such an
incredible guitarist. No one else could really replicate his sound even with
his own equipment.
Thrush
:I'm using a Marshall JCM900 through a home-built piece of shit 2X12" cab
:with generic, square-magnets and a cracked-headed, cigarette burned (!)
:Les Paul flat top that I bought at a hock shop. And I get paid to play my
:songs for people while he fishes around for a band that will have him.
Ahhh... the JCM900... that's the first Marchall amp that I've realllllly liked
a lot. I hated those things for years, then I heard that one and just about
lost my cookies. Just something about it. It made me actually want to go out
and get an amp.
:> I don't think the anti-establishment stance has anything to do with it...
:> musicians need instruments to play their music. Personally, I'll take a
:> Yamaha over just about any Gibson or Fender. I use more basic tools. Still,
:
:Whuuuuut?!!! (I use the above-mentioned Gibson and a bought-used
:Telecaster. I'm cheap, but I have TASTE. ;> )
Why you... I oughta SMACK you fer that one... *grin* Nah, if you can get a
beater cheap, right on. I actually love the Les Paul Studio series a lot (and
they're one of the cheaper Les Pauls) but I still think you can get better
bang for the buck... And I'd still swap out their pickups. But if someone
says you can get a Gibson L6S for $250, yup... I'd do that in a second.
:
:> think there was nothing to it... Now I think the Blues is a vacant and very
:> dead beast worth being heard only by deaf mutes (read: record critics) on
:
:....on corporate-radio and beer-sponsored stages at the county fairground,
:where drunken slobs and ex-buttrockers yell at their kids to behave so
:they can air-guitar to some Vaughan ripoff. "Well, MY GIRL DONE LEFT ME
:DOWN IN TEXAS/YEAH/REALLY GETS ME DOWN/*riff*/SAID MY GIRL DONE LEFT ME
:DOWN IN TEXAS..." Hell, even Gary Moore is doing blues covers. Eeesh
You forgot to mention how the girl was his sister and he was having sex with
his dog instead 'cos his mother wouldn't do him no moh and his gunrack was
broken... Oops... that's country. Sorry... But you're right on about the air
guitar thing! Woo!!!
Thrush
:
:Didn't Steve Jones of the Sex Pistols play a LP Custom most of the time?
:Somehow I have the feeling he didn't *buy* it though...
The story goes that most of the Sex Pistols equipment was actually stuff
stolen from the Rolling Stones storage space or equipment bus. This is a
rumor I've heard for ages... but it's well known that Steve Jones was a thief
for a living previous to (and during a bit of) the Sex Pistols...
Gatt
> beater cheap, right on. I actually love the Les Paul Studio series a lot (and
> they're one of the cheaper Les Pauls) but I still think you can get better
> bang for the buck... And I'd still swap out their pickups. But if someone
> says you can get a Gibson L6S for $250, yup... I'd do that in a second.
Friend of mine bought one for $350 or so from Starving Musician. He
cranked that bastard through an old Silvertone head in a presentation hall
at Nasa/Ames where he works at about 1 am. His boss showed up, said "What
the hell are you doing?" Jason said "Playing my new Les Paul." The boss
just turned and left. Rockin' guitar.
I wouldn't spend more than a grand for anything that wasn't custom built
myself, either. Got my Gibson LP flat top for $300 and my Tele for around
$400 with a hard case. 'Course, I waited about ten years to find that
deal!
TIMOTHY GUEGUEN
: Not A Speck Of Cereal wrote:
: >
: > john_...@nothere.com (Thrush) wrote:
: > [...]
: > [] Funny thing is that Kurt Cobain, before Nirvana got the DGC contract, had only
: > [] one decent guitar. It was a second or third-hand Fender Jaguar that he
: > [] admittedly babied and polished constantly. He also rarely played it, rather
: > [] using his old, beat-up no-namers or Hagstroms... what have you. I believe his
: > [] amp was an old Radio Shack PA set up that he'd had for years and that would
: > [] break at nearly every gig. He was definitely roughing it on the equipment
: > [] front.
: >
: > This explains a few things . . .
: Yeah, in interviews he said he preferred solid
: state amps because they were more robust and louder.
: Greg Ginn of Black Flag was the same way.
He also favoured a solid state guitar for most of Black Flag, a Dan
Armstrong Plexiglass. It got ripped off near the end and the pictures in
Rollins' Get In The Van book show him playing an Ibanez RG440 with a
Floyd thing. This makes me laugh because i almost bought one back in
'87, and I think the price was $450.
tim gueguen 101867
Alogusz
>The story goes that most of the Sex Pistols equipment was actually stuff
>stolen from the Rolling Stones storage space or equipment bus. This is a
>rumor I've heard for ages... but it's well known that Steve Jones was a thief
>
>for a living previous to (and during a bit of) the Sex Pistols...
>
>
Steves amp was stolen from Bob Marley, as was one of his black Lp's,
one day him and Paul Cook snuck in to either Wembley or Hammersmith and went
around stealing microphones from Rod Stewart or Elton John, who had a show
later that night. Can you really get a Fender twin to sound like SJ???
Brian Rost
> :> dead beast worth being heard only by deaf mutes (read: record critics) on
> :
> :....on corporate-radio and beer-sponsored stages at the county fairground,
> :where drunken slobs and ex-buttrockers yell at their kids to behave so
> :they can air-guitar to some Vaughan ripoff. "Well, MY GIRL DONE LEFT ME
> :DOWN IN TEXAS/YEAH/REALLY GETS ME DOWN/*riff*/SAID MY GIRL DONE LEFT ME
> :DOWN IN TEXAS..." Hell, even Gary Moore is doing blues covers. Eeesh
Before you start taking on the blues (or anytstyle of music) keep in
mind that EVERY style has it's share of cliches.
Including punk. For every punk band that does something really different
there are a hundred that immediately copy them (often poorly).
Getting on stage and playing out of tune while screaming indecipherable
lyrics about how bored you are with modern life isn't exactly a new and
unique thing anymore....
I should mention I have played in blues bands. I also have played in
punk bands. I just play MUSIC.
Oh yeah, I have nice gear but I also have a good day job so that all my
gig money gets plowed back into my gear.
--
Brian Rost
3Com Corp.
978-264-1550
br...@synnet.com
*********************************************************************
Playing the bass is like dancing the limbo: how low can you go?
*********************************************************************
Thrush
:Before you start taking on the blues (or anytstyle of music) keep in
:mind that EVERY style has it's share of cliches.
:Including punk. For every punk band that does something really different
:there are a hundred that immediately copy them (often poorly).
:Getting on stage and playing out of tune while screaming indecipherable
:lyrics about how bored you are with modern life isn't exactly a new and
:unique thing anymore....
:
:I should mention I have played in blues bands. I also have played in
:punk bands. I just play MUSIC.
Come on, Brian, we're just having a bit of fun. Personally, I really don't
care for much blues at all... It just bores me. It's far more cliche ridden
than most music because of that damned BLUES BOX that everyone seems to
gravitate towards. That and every time I walk into a guitar shop, someone's
trying to pull off a B.B.King riff or a Clapton run... pheh. I just think
it's a very tired beast that's been beaten up and messed around a bit more
than it should have over the past 50 years.
As for punk... almost the same thing. Really, most of it is just annoying
barre chords and repetitive gunk. The out of tune playing and indecipherable
screaming is really not my sort of deal. I'm more interested in bands like
Fugazi, Black Flag, Rites of Spring, FEAR, Splodgenessabounds, the Damned...
bands that did things a little differently and had some sense of irony or
humor about them... and yes, Black Flag DID have a sense of humor! Listen to
that first record. Now Fugazi and Rites of Spring aren't quite the funniest
guys in the world, but the interplay between the instruments is incredible.
They're all excellent musicians.
True, a bunch of blues guys are great players, but how often can we hear that
stupid string bend, huh? AAARRRRRGGGGHHHH!!!!!
Gatt
> > :DOWN IN TEXAS..." Hell, even Gary Moore is doing blues covers. Eeesh
>
> Before you start taking on the blues (or anytstyle of music) keep in
> mind that EVERY style has it's share of cliches.
> Including punk. For every punk band that does something really different
> there are a hundred that immediately copy them (often poorly).
OI! Heh...
Actually, in Blues it's more noticeable because more people do it with no
ambition or energy. Bunch of joes up there in a bar squeezing in a riff
between Mustang Sally and and Stevie Ray Anything. When you see a really
unique jam or a band that's playing it hot, though, you can feel it even
if it's based on cliche. Then you know what it's about. I only WISH I
could get that gritty.
> Getting on stage and playing out of tune while screaming indecipherable
> lyrics about how bored you are with modern life isn't exactly a new and
> unique thing anymore....
Agreement there. Punk is mutating into something a little more space-rock
and psychedelic...stuff like the Bella Low and Swoon 23 and some of the
Dandy Warhols. There's some good shit starting to happen as the punk
bands get a little older, so keep the faith! :>
Gatt
> gravitate towards. That and every time I walk into a guitar shop, someone's
> trying to pull off a B.B.King riff or a Clapton run... pheh. I just think
Yep. I'm not much into Clapton. I know...you can't say that in a guitar
newsgroup or a music store, but he mastered the artform and massively
commercialized it, as SRV did. Go to the roots of Blues...places like New
Orleans, and you don't find the Clapton sound. Blues is sweaty, stinky,
sultry, gritty grungy and obscene. AFAIC, it belongs on a Mosrite or some
other semihollow body through an old tube amp.
To me, a skinny, well-dressed, rich white guys playing blues is like me
playing punk in a business suit or playing grunge at a truck stop. They
might be able to play the shit out the guitar, but blues doesn't seem to
be the right word for it.
> True, a bunch of blues guys are great players, but how often can we hear that
> stupid string bend, huh? AAARRRRRGGGGHHHH!!!!!
Ayep.
Steve Sklar
sixties talkin' 'bout how them young white boys can't play blues...15
years later, his "adopted sons" were Johnny Winter and E.C.; ya can't
get much whiter than Johnny, and of course, EC's a skinny, well-dressed
rich white English dude. Maybe you know somethin' Muddy didn't???
Of course, I'm a husky white guy from Minnesota who goes to Europe to
teach 'em how to sing like Mongols...so what do I know?
Steve "come back here and we'll measure your resonant cavity" Sklar
Gatt
> rich white English dude. Maybe you know somethin' Muddy didn't???
Naw...I just like his original argument, back when he wouldn't have been
outcast for telling it like he saw it. There are some GREAT fucking white
blues guys...usually doing RnB or Jazz too, like Dr. John and some of the
stuff that's been happening in New Orleans. Nothing against blues guys,
especially SRV. The only problem with SRV is that every white guitarist
over 40 is trying to sound like him nowadays in every biker and blues bar
in America.
Of all the "white guys" I like Gary Moore. The dude can heat it up.
Plus, he ditched his Fender for a Les Paul, knowing that thin and clean
isn't a blues attribute, whether it's a person or a guitar tone. (Ie
Muddy Waters.) Moore switched to a LP because was fat and gritty and,
well, muddy. 'Course, I still have Shapes of Things sitting around
somewhere.
Red
and blues. You don't get much grittier than that. One punk band I liked in
the late '70s were the Wipers. They were more melodic than your
run-of-the-mill Ramones/Clash/Pistols/OrangeCounty mutations.
Gatt wrote ...
bstokes
--
This is kinda' off color to the post, but listen to the Spin Doctors. They
have a white guitar player that had to have played jazz, for years. He has
some of the most bizzarre chord progressions. If not for Blues, there may
have not been Rock. Also if not for mixing styles and creating the "fusion"
sounds, things would be much more tired in the guitar world. Some of the
truly "great" guitar players used fusion as their niche. Yngwie is a good
example. Some like him, some don't, but when he exploded on the scene with
Rising Force, he changed the sound of modern guitar. Unfortunately, he was
the pinnacle of the "guitar" bands, and the beginning of the end. Yngwie has
no right playing classical stuff, right. After all he wasn't born hundreds
of years ago.
>;-] Bryant
John Sheehy
>Steve "come back here and we'll measure your resonant cavity" Sklar
Please don't make the hole in my skull *too* big!
--
<>>< ><<> ><<> <>>< ><<> <>>< <>>< ><<>
John P Sheehy <jsh...@ix.netcom.com>
><<> <>>< <>>< ><<> <>>< ><<> ><<> <>><
David Kurtz
(John Sheehy) wrote:
> Steve Sklar <skla...@tc.umn.edu> wrote:
>
> >Steve "come back here and we'll measure your resonant cavity" Sklar
>
> Please don't make the hole in my skull *too* big!
I hear that mind-expanding trepanation is always an option.
--
David Kurtz -- remove the underscore from my email address to reply
PGP key and more... http://www.lightside.net/~david/
Terrence John Barrow
On Mon, 30 Nov 1998, Brian Rost wrote:
> J. White wrote:
> >
> > I recently rented a video about the Seattle alternative punk movement.
> > One thing that's always amazed me about the punk rockers is how
> > and why, in spite of their rabidly anti-establishment stances, do they
> > manage
> > to get such nice and such very expensive equipment. It seemed like
> > almost
> > every punk band featured in this movie, no matter how dreadful, were
> > playing
> > bright shiney new Les Pauls or other name brand American guitars
> > through
> > Marshall or Fender amps. As an amateur investor, I would like to
> > know
> > what the punker/alternative rocker's secret is. Where do they get the
> > money
> > to buy such expensive equipment to play their 2 chord noise? Are
> > their
> > mommy's and daddy's all rich or something?
>
> Credit cards? Many music stores offer time payment plans. Or maybe they
> just saved up the money from their day jobs and gigs. Where there is a
> will there is a way.
>
> Besides, how much does a "shiny new American guitar" cost these days?
> $500 will get you one. Ditto for the amp. $1000 is only about a month of
> flipping burgers.
Man i would love to work at the burger shop that pays me $1000/month...
takes me a year to pay off $1000 worth of gear! But then again my parents
don't keep me alive.....
> I do detect a subtext of griping here, i.e. the "antiestablishment" and
> "two chord noise" bit. Once I had a musician friend of my brother's
> stay over my house and when he saw all my gear he told my wife I must
> not be able to play well because I had nice equipment. Fuck him. I have
> even nicer gear now and play even better. And I bought it with my gig
> money.
Brian Rost
>
> On Mon, 30 Nov 1998, Brian Rost wrote:
>
> >
> > Besides, how much does a "shiny new American guitar" cost these days?
> > $500 will get you one. Ditto for the amp. $1000 is only about a month of
> > flipping burgers.
>
> Man i would love to work at the burger shop that pays me $1000/month...
> takes me a year to pay off $1000 worth of gear! But then again my parents
> don't keep me alive.....
>
Well, one month = 20 days of work
Local burger joints where I live are paying $8 an hour, so an 8 hour day
is $64.
That's $1280 before taxes. Even if you get raped on taxes the money adds
up quick.
Hey you get free meals on the job and if you sleep in the homeless
shelter you have no rent, right? <grin> After all we're talking PUNK
here <grin>
Baybull1
and go work for effing Mcdonalds..
Alex
> Re: How can Punk Rockers afford such expensive equipment?
>
>Local burger joints where I live are paying $8 an hour, so an 8 hour day
>is $64.
Where the hell do you live?! $8 dollars an hour?
Alex T.D.
remove "HIGHGAIN" from address to reply
Giri Iyengar
> Of all the "white guys" I like Gary Moore. The dude can heat it up.
> Plus, he ditched his Fender for a Les Paul, knowing that thin and clean
> isn't a blues attribute, whether it's a person or a guitar tone.
Tell that to Albert Collins, Otis Rush, Buddy Guy,
Kenny Neal, Muddy Waters, etc. etc. etc. etc.
TIMOTHY GUEGUEN
: Gatt wrote:
: > Of all the "white guys" I like Gary Moore. The dude can heat it up.
: > Plus, he ditched his Fender for a Les Paul, knowing that thin and clean
: > isn't a blues attribute, whether it's a person or a guitar tone.
: Tell that to Albert Collins, Otis Rush, Buddy Guy,
: Kenny Neal, Muddy Waters, etc. etc. etc. etc.
If you look at blues album covers, or thumb thru a magazine like Living
Blues you'll see blues players using everything from ES335s, to Ibanez
Strat copies, to cheapo sixties monsters with 3 cutaways and 4 pickups.
There's no such thing as the "proper" guitar for blues, they use whatever
they want or in some cases can afford.
tim gueguen 101867
Thrush
:
:> gravitate towards. That and every time I walk into a guitar shop, someone's
:> trying to pull off a B.B.King riff or a Clapton run... pheh. I just think
:
:Yep. I'm not much into Clapton. I know...you can't say that in a guitar
:newsgroup or a music store, but he mastered the artform and massively
:commercialized it, as SRV did. Go to the roots of Blues...places like New
:Orleans, and you don't find the Clapton sound. Blues is sweaty, stinky,
:sultry, gritty grungy and obscene. AFAIC, it belongs on a Mosrite or some
:other semihollow body through an old tube amp.
Thank you for saying what I wanted to say but didn't. Blues sweaty, stinky,
and sultry... Not some silly British thing.
:To me, a skinny, well-dressed, rich white guys playing blues is like me
:playing punk in a business suit or playing grunge at a truck stop. They
:might be able to play the shit out the guitar, but blues doesn't seem to
:be the right word for it.
Ok, I can see playing punk in a business suit (the Presidents of the United
States of America, for instance) as kind of a lark. Grunge at a truck stop is
just plain fun. But my thinking here is a sense of humor... punk has an
element of humor and fun about it that blues does not.
My thinking? Blues is about feeling down... things aren't going right and
the general mood is mucky, so why lie about it? Plus I think Robert Johnson,
Muddy Waters, Willie Dixon, et. al. had that down before the British Invasion
took it and warped it. Yes, I'm into Zeppelin and all that semi-bluesy stuff,
but Clapton and his egotistical "I only want to play blues blues blues" crap
just got on my nerves early on.
Thrush
:
:
: This is kinda' off color to the post, but listen to the Spin Doctors. They
: have a white guitar player that had to have played jazz, for years. He has
: some of the most bizzarre chord progressions. If not for Blues, there may
: have not been Rock.
Yup... he's a great guitar player, no doubt about it. Their bass player was
the cheese, too. Great players. Can't say I liked all their music, but they
were definitely fluid and top rate musicians.
I don't really agree with if it were not for blues, there would not be rock.
Yeah yeah yeah... Elvis, Chubby Checker, Chuck Berry, Little Richard and all
that early rock and roll were all really derivatives of rhythm and blues.
Fine. But I believe the music would have presented itself eventually without
R&B in some manner or shape. You could always argue that the art rock and
jazz rock happenings never would have developed unless the blues rock steps
had been made. You could say that they were reacting against blues, but none
of this really means anything... Just a bunch of arguments.
: Also if not for mixing styles and creating the "fusion" sounds, things would
: be much more tired in the guitar world. Some of the truly "great" guitar
: players used fusion as their niche. Yngwie is a good example. Some like him,
: some don't, but when he exploded on the scene with Rising Force, he changed
: the sound of modern guitar. Unfortunately, he was the pinnacle of the
: "guitar" bands, and the beginning of the end. Yngwie has no right playing
: classical stuff, right. After all he wasn't born hundreds of years ago.
Well, when you mention fusion, you should throw in that huge jazz-rock
movement of the 70s... John McLaughlin, Al DiMeola, Jeff Beck, Pat Metheny,
Steve Howe, etc... they're all exceptional players that took elements of jazz
and rock and solidly fuzed them into an aggressive and artistic venture. Now
Yngwie was only one of many guitarists who took this rock and classical
attitude. Steve Howe did it far earlier. So did Robert Fripp. But the idea
of fusion and bringing styles together is nothing new at all... that dates
back as long as music has existed. It's almost always been used to put a
fresh spin on things.
Brian Rost
>
> I don't really agree with if it were not for blues, there would not be rock.
> Yeah yeah yeah... Elvis, Chubby Checker, Chuck Berry, Little Richard and all
> that early rock and roll were all really derivatives of rhythm and blues.
> Fine. But I believe the music would have presented itself eventually without
> R&B in some manner or shape.
???? Like from where ?????
Music is evolutionary, it takes hindsight sometimes to see where things
came from, but it's highly unlikely that rock as we know it today would
ever have developed without R&B.
The birth of rock and roll was really just black R&B crossing over to
white audiences and (later) white performers.
If that crossover had not happened, whatever "new" music might have
developed in the 50s would likely have been very much different than
rock and roll. Keep in mind that in the 50s JAZZ still had a decent
chunk of the pop music market, Dave Brubeck was a hot act with college
kids, etc.
It's more likely that some evolved form of jazz would be the dominant
pop music in America today if Elvis and others hadn't brought black R&B
to the white audience.
Mark McDonald
You guys hit the nail on the head. I never liked any British
interpretation of the Blues. Clapton trys like hell and has certainly
payed his dues and his technical ability is well, you know, but it is
all too perfect. And Blues is not perfect. The best blues is live,
flat out, mistakes included. It is about playing music from the heart
and gut, technical ability is secondary.
White guys can play the blues. Look at SRV, or Tab Benoit, or shit,
for that matter, Duane Allman. It is just that British interpretation
that leaves me cold. This is course is all my opinion and means about
as much as burnt toast.
--
Mark McDonald
m...@sonic.net
http://www.inlandproperties.com
(707)545-3220
Wolfgang
aswell, but something struck me about the way people are pigeonholing punk. I know
young kids usually consider punk just the Sex Pistols' brand of punk, but punk
wasn't just badly tuned guitars playing at 11, it was an attitude towards the world
and towards music. Don't forget that at the time The Police, The Specials, MC5,
Patti Smith, Joe Jackson, The Talking Heads, Blondie, Elvis Costello and The Clash
were all punk. Some of these people could really play!
We all know how much we hate it when people pigeonhole our favorite type of
music (heavy metal- all loud, screaming, no musical sense, blues- slow with lots of
clichés, pop- keyboards and a drum machine.) lets not make the same mistake with
punk.
Wolfgang
Simon Beck
compared with Teles and Gibson semis!
Les Paul himself has always favoured a clean tone (he plays mostly
jazz-inflected 1940s-50s pop), and it wasn't until the British electric
blues scene of the mid-60s that the Les Paul guitar was discovered to have
a great distorted blues sound.
Giri Iyengar
>
> In article <Pine.GSO.3.96.981204...@thetics.europa.com>, Gatt <ga...@europa.com> wrote:
>
> :sultry, gritty grungy and obscene. AFAIC, it belongs on a Mosrite or some
> :other semihollow body through an old tube amp.
>
> Thank you for saying what I wanted to say but didn't. Blues sweaty, stinky,
> and sultry... Not some silly British thing.
>
> :To me, a skinny, well-dressed, rich white guys playing blues is like me
> :playing punk in a business suit or playing grunge at a truck stop.
Well, since neither of you responded to my other
post on single-coil blues guitar players, I'll
try again. Have either of you jokers ever heard
of, say, Big Bill Broonzy or Lonnie Johnson, to
name two great early bluesmen? You should dig up
some book with pictures and flip through it. You
always see these guys in suits, shiny shoes, tie,
pin-striped pants, hair all slick, real dressers.
The blues is many things to many people. You have
a very limited concept of it.
Gatt
> Well, since neither of you responded to my other
> post on single-coil blues guitar players, I'll
> try again. Have either of you jokers ever heard
> of, say, Big Bill Broonzy or Lonnie Johnson, to
"Joker?" Yes, I've heard them. I guess it's the Mississippi in me.
Trip on over to New Orleans and you'll hear 70-year-old toothless fossils
lay you flat with any guitar they bother to pick up, and you'll walk away
embarrassed that you ever thought modern corporate blues was good.
My point is, it's like grunge. I'm not going to knock anybody's art or
appreciation of others, but blues just wasn't built that way the way you
don't see grunge musicians wearing spandex and playing shredders. Doesn't
mean they can't jam...it just doesn't have the credibility.
The problem is, you take two or three white guys that really wail on a
strat, and that's fine. Then you dilute it with millions of wannabees
playing cliches in every country, blues, biker bar or truck stop in the
world. Then, about all you can do is give SRV credit for mutating the
artform to a new level nicely and allow millions of people to start
thinking that he or Clapton is the "king of the blues."
> always see these guys in suits, shiny shoes, tie,
> pin-striped pants, hair all slick, real dressers.
That was common in Chicago and New Orleans in the old days. Hell, it was
dress code for musicians in a lot of places. Suits weren't custom
tailored and musicians didn't and don't ride helicopters to gigs. That
ain't the blues, that's the American Dream.
> The blues is many things to many people. You have
> a very limited concept of it.
Only because that I learned it in the birthplace of the blues, and I've
yet to find a commercially successful musician that blows me away like
some of the cats playing the neighborhood bars down there. Down there
it's more R&B influenced; there's more going on with second line drumming,
chorus harmonies and other instruments, but it's still hot as hell blues.
To me, this is like comparing tubes to solid state. You can get great SS
sound, but there's something yet to be defined that distinguishes the
aesthetic of one over the other. Maybe it's because the guys along the
Mississippi meant what they were singing, and that gave it all the
credibility it ever needed.
>
> ..Giri
>
> --
>
> e-mail: giyengar "at" ford "dot" com
>
>
Chris Gattman | "The sky is humming,
Thrush
:Well, since neither of you responded to my other
:post on single-coil blues guitar players, I'll
:try again. Have either of you jokers ever heard
:of, say, Big Bill Broonzy or Lonnie Johnson, to
:name two great early bluesmen? You should dig up
:some book with pictures and flip through it. You
:always see these guys in suits, shiny shoes, tie,
:pin-striped pants, hair all slick, real dressers.
:
:The blues is many things to many people. You have
:a very limited concept of it.
Frankly, I am very biased AGAINST the blues, so I'll brazenly state that the
blues is a very limited concept in itself. Sorry, but the form of music is
just beaten and tired. Jazz is just about as old, but it constantly takes new
and fresh directions without being beaten coldly into the ground. Some of it
is amazing, some is unbearable, but most is worthy of listening for a new
angle. The Blues does not hold that for me...
And yes, I know that a lot of Blues players dressed up and looked their best
while playing. A lot of them were exceedingly stylish; however, I don't think
the look has much to bear against the music... just as punk is not defined by
its wardrobe, neither is the blues. That, I'd say, is a VERY limited concept
of music.
Thrush
:Thrush wrote:
:>
:> I don't really agree with if it were not for blues, there would not be rock.
:> Yeah yeah yeah... Elvis, Chubby Checker, Chuck Berry, Little Richard and all
:> that early rock and roll were all really derivatives of rhythm and blues.
:> Fine. But I believe the music would have presented itself eventually without
:> R&B in some manner or shape.
:
:???? Like from where ?????
<surgical snip>
:It's more likely that some evolved form of jazz would be the dominant
:pop music in America today if Elvis and others hadn't brought black R&B
:to the white audience.
My point precisely. Simply because the blues was the road used to bring us to
"rock" as such, I believe there would have been other roads. How about swing
and the more aggressive jazz? I believe they would have been just as easy a
catalyst for "rock & roll." Perhaps it would have been "rock & slide" or
something else beyond my feeble imagination at present.
Frankly, the blues is over-emphasized and given a bit too much credit to my
mind. Yes, a lot of people played it, but I think a factor for this is
because it's pretty easy to learn the basics and make some music quickly. I
don't think many other forms are as easily acquired... hence the reason that
route was taken.
Thrush
: I know young kids usually consider punk just the Sex Pistols' brand of punk, but punk
:wasn't just badly tuned guitars playing at 11, it was an attitude towards the world
:and towards music. Don't forget that at the time The Police, The Specials, MC5,
:Patti Smith, Joe Jackson, The Talking Heads, Blondie, Elvis Costello and The
: Clash were all punk. Some of these people could really play!
Well, if you want to start pigeonholing again, very few punks or punk fans
even considered the Police remotely punk at the time. They had a really tough
time getting dates to play for a couple of years. Why? They were too old and
they COULD play! If you want to be specific, they were jumping on the punk
bandwagon (Sting came from Last Exit, a jazz group. Copeland was in Curved
Air, a progressive group. Summers was a prog rock second stringer with a long
list of credits including Mike Oldfield and, if I'm not mistaken, the Soft
Machine. All of them came together with Mike Howlett's Strontium 90... a CD
is available of a bunch of the early Police tunes on that.)
In any respect, gotta stop you cold on that punk statement. Costello and Joe
Jackson weren't punk. New wave, perhaps... or at least pop influenced by the
energy and youth of punk. Costello was just on a punk label (Stiff Records)
and Jackson was a good song writer with a piano.
The Specials were two-tone... ska if anything.
The Talking Heads and Blondie were artsy pop. Patti Smith was just weird...
got her start in the coffee houses and ended up being a rock artist before
punk broke. Sure, they're all CB-GBs people, but that's famous 'cos of the
Ramones... I'd say the Ramones were the ones that started pushing things
further in the 70s in America and that they were punks, but not until the
British press coined the phrases.
The MC5 were rock. That's it and all there is to it. Detroit madness. Same
thing with the Stooges. Rock. Personally, yeah, I'll go so far as to say
they were punk, but they preceded the name. As did the New York Dolls (which
were managed by one Malcolm McLaren who, after becoming frustrated by his
inability to bring them over to the UK, more or less brought together and
managed the Sex Pistols.)
And yes, most of these people could play and play extremely well. Television
was right in there in the New York scene... and yes, they were mighty, mighty
musicians. Funny thing is, a lot of prog rockers really liked punk. They saw
something new and energetic there that was getting bogged down in their own
music. Peter Gabriel liked the Sex Pistols. So did Phil Collins. Pete
Townshend was all over punk and hung out with the Sex Pistols from what I
understand. They saw it as music... not a scene.
Xtreme2965
>:Thrush wrote:
>:>
>:> I don't really agree with if it were not for blues, there would not be
>rock.
>:> Yeah yeah yeah... Elvis, Chubby Checker, Chuck Berry, Little Richard and
>all
>:> that early rock and roll were all really derivatives of rhythm and blues.
>:> Fine. But I believe the music would have presented itself eventually
>without
>:> R&B in some manner or shape.
>:
>:???? Like from where ?????
>
><surgical snip>
>
>:It's more likely that some evolved form of jazz would be the dominant
>:pop music in America today if Elvis and others hadn't brought black R&B
>:to the white audience.
>
>My point precisely. Simply because the blues was the road used to bring us
>to
>"rock" as such, I believe there would have been other roads. How about swing
>
>and the more aggressive jazz? I believe they would have been just as easy a
>catalyst for "rock & roll." Perhaps it would have been "rock & slide" or
>something else beyond my feeble imagination at present.
that is like saying without henry ford automoblie manufacturing would be the
same or without hitler wwii would have happened.
try starting a fire without oxygen, doesn't work does it. now try starting rock
and roll without the blues.
if the blues never happened rock and roll wouldn't have either and if it did it
would be so much different you wouldn't reconize it.
---------------------------
Bob
*remove the 2965 to reply and you'll have a problem
Jay Shaw
>
> And yes, I know that a lot of Blues players dressed up and looked their best
> while playing. A lot of them were exceedingly stylish; however, I don't think
> the look has much to bear against the music... just as punk is not defined by
> its wardrobe, neither is the blues. That, I'd say, is a VERY limited concept
> of music.
Punk not defined by wardrobe? Well I know it isn't totally but crazy
wardrobe in punk is almost necessary to be taken seriously as a punk band
(if thats possible).
Jay
--
The day I give up music ... will not happen before today.
Jay's Place The Guitar & Bass Place
http://fly.to/jay98 http://fly.to/gbp
Proudly Canadian, eh!
Les Cargill
>
> Thrush wrote:
> >
> > And yes, I know that a lot of Blues players dressed up and looked their best
> > while playing. A lot of them were exceedingly stylish; however, I don't think
> > the look has much to bear against the music... just as punk is not defined by
> > its wardrobe, neither is the blues. That, I'd say, is a VERY limited concept
> > of music.
>
> Punk not defined by wardrobe? Well I know it isn't totally but crazy
> wardrobe in punk is almost necessary to be taken seriously as a punk band
> (if thats possible).
Yup. In order to be a noncomformist, you must conform.
>
> Jay
> --
> The day I give up music ... will not happen before today.
>
> Jay's Place The Guitar & Bass Place
> http://fly.to/jay98 http://fly.to/gbp
>
> Proudly Canadian, eh!
--
X-No-Archive: yes
Les Cargill - lcar...@worldnet.att.net
Simon Beck
probably a lot wider-ranging than in the UK. Certainly bands such as
Talking Heads, the Ramones and Blondie were never perceived as anything
other than "New Wave" in the UK at the time.
elizabeth & chris
Les Cargill wrote:
> Yup. In order to be a noncomformist, you must conform.
The uniqueness of conformity.....
ESB
Andrew Rogers
>> Re: How can Punk Rockers afford such expensive equipment?
>>
>>Local burger joints where I live are paying $8 an hour, so an 8 hour day
>>is $64.
>Where the hell do you live?! $8 dollars an hour?
I believe he's in the metropolitan Boston area. I can confirm that some of
the burger joints indeed do pay $8/hr, particularly for the less-desirable
shifts.
Andrew
DJMangin
>
not unheard of here either... the Taco Hell down the street from us is offering
$7.50 an hr days to start. Not sure about other areas, but here in MN the
unemployment percentage is so low these days it's hard to find workers. Plenty
of jobs, but everyone seems to already have one...
GeoMac
>
> In article <366d5...@nap.mtholyoke.edu> Alex <theman...@HIGHGAINmailexcite.com> writes:
> >> Re: How can Punk Rockers afford such expensive equipment?
> >>
> >>Local burger joints where I live are paying $8 an hour, so an 8 hour day
> >>is $64.
>
>
> the burger joints indeed do pay $8/hr, particularly for the less-desirable
> shifts.
I was in a Jack in the Box in San Diego County last weekend and saw a
sign offering $8 an hour for work there.
pH
GeoMac
The Ramones WERE Punk.
But Blondie and the Talking Heads were considered New Wave rather than
punk in the US as well.
phil
Steven
>In article <Pine.GSO.3.96.981204...@thetics.europa.com>, Gatt <ga...@europa.com> wrote:
>:
>:> gravitate towards. That and every time I walk into a guitar shop, someone's
>:> trying to pull off a B.B.King riff or a Clapton run... pheh. I just think
>:
>:Yep. I'm not much into Clapton. I know...you can't say that in a guitar
>:newsgroup or a music store, but he mastered the artform and massively
>:commercialized it, as SRV did. Go to the roots of Blues...places like New
>:Orleans, and you don't find the Clapton sound. Blues is sweaty, stinky,
>:sultry, gritty grungy and obscene. AFAIC, it belongs on a Mosrite or some
>:other semihollow body through an old tube amp.
>Thank you for saying what I wanted to say but didn't. Blues sweaty, stinky,
>and sultry... Not some silly British thing.
>:To me, a skinny, well-dressed, rich white guys playing blues is like me
>:playing punk in a business suit or playing grunge at a truck stop. They
>:might be able to play the shit out the guitar, but blues doesn't seem to
>:be the right word for it.
>Ok, I can see playing punk in a business suit (the Presidents of the United
>States of America, for instance) as kind of a lark. Grunge at a truck stop is
>just plain fun. But my thinking here is a sense of humor... punk has an
>element of humor and fun about it that blues does not.
>My thinking? Blues is about feeling down... things aren't going right and
>the general mood is mucky, so why lie about it? Plus I think Robert Johnson,
>Muddy Waters, Willie Dixon, et. al. had that down before the British Invasion
>took it and warped it. Yes, I'm into Zeppelin and all that semi-bluesy stuff,
>but Clapton and his egotistical "I only want to play blues blues blues" crap
>just got on my nerves early on.
I've never had much empathy for the pretentious notion that only 'blacks' can
play the blues - or that 'the blues' is always about "feelin' lowdown". What
rubbish! Blues is a genre of music that has more to do with chord structure,
tempo and feel than it is about ethnicity. The notion the "skinny white kids"
like Clapton or Page or Bloomfield or any number of their contemporaries can't
play blues is elitist crapola!
Thrush
:I've never had much empathy for the pretentious notion that only 'blacks' can
:play the blues - or that 'the blues' is always about "feelin' lowdown". What
:rubbish! Blues is a genre of music that has more to do with chord structure,
:tempo and feel than it is about ethnicity. The notion the "skinny white kids"
:like Clapton or Page or Bloomfield or any number of their contemporaries can't
:play blues is elitist crapola!
Like it or not, "white boy British Blues" is completely different from
American Delta Blues... or any of the original incarnations/permeations of
American blues. The British have their own rather characteristic
interpretation of it. Frankly, I find it very tiresome. Then again, I find
pretty much all blues tiresome simply because of... the chord structure,
tempo, and feel. Yes, I just think the Blues sucks. A personal opinion, mind
you, that is the result of just being bored with the whole silly structure.
Strange as it may seem, I think using one's imagination in regard to music
should get some credit and attention.
And what are you talking about not feeling that the blues isn't about "feelin'
lowdown"? THAT'S WHAT IT'S ABOUT!!!! "I've got the blues," does NOT mean
"Gosh, golly, gee! I'm sooo content with life!" I'm pretty sure 95% of
society would interpret that as "I am in the dumps... life is not so cool
right now... I am bummed out... tres sad, mon," or some reasonable facsimile
thereof.
Since I do feel your pain and all, I'll give you some little pretentious
remarks so you can jump all over it and ride me like the bitch I am: Eric
Clapton used up all of his credibility and talent in the late 60s while still
in the Yardbirds. B.B. King has been making crowds silly with the same simple
vibrato technique as as his trademark for the past 30 or 40 years. Stevie Ray
Vaughn is just a crap Texas blues guy who suckered a bunch of idiots into
thinking he was a guitar god for some god-unknown reason...personally, I think
it was his magic hat and soul patch rather than his playing. Enjoy!
Gatt
> "feelin' lowdown". What rubbish! Blues is a genre of music that has
> more to do with chord structure, tempo and feel than it is about
> ethnicity. The notion the "skinny white kids" like Clapton or Page or
> Bloomfield or any number of their contemporaries can't play blues is
> elitist crapola!
No, it isn't. It's a valid opinion by people who grew up listening to
blues and have been playing blues guitar for over a decade (personally, 17
years.) There isn't anything WRONG with Clapton playing blues, but it
just doesn't inspire me beyond thinking "Hey, what a nice blues riff."
Beyond that, it doesn't have any authentic, dramatic movement.
To address blues as a genre of music, you have to look at the part of
American history that is responsible for it. Roll back the clock to the
early 20th century, even before the great depression, when the south was
still struggling during the end of the Reconstruction era. The gospel
influence on black musicians--well, that goes without saying--but jazz was
happening in the brothels (along Rampart street on the lake Ponchartrain
side of the old Quarter) as a seedy, sleazy and outrageous musical score
to what was going on in what was the area's only real thriving industry.
Also, it was work. If you played in a whorehouse, you had a job. There
weren't jobs for white folks and the dying Old South wasn't about to hire
black folks while the white communities collapsed.
So there was literally nothing to do. The only hope was getting picked up
in a jazz combo and making a bit of bread playing to sailors and other
passers at the bars and brothels. Slim pickings there too, because
prohibition came along, but maybe the musicians could scrounge up a meal
or some spare change from a sympathetic passer if they sang their woes on
the street. The trick was, you had to be more woeful than the next guy.
Guys wanted to learn to play. It was the only thing they could do. Most
didn't have a chance of competing with the true musicians out there, but
an old bottle or a piece of metal over the frets could produce odd,
melancholy tones. And, they didn't have to know how to fret...they could
just slide. It picked up right away...everybody started doing it.
A banged up old guitar played with a slide by an unemployed non-musician
on his stoop in a depressed, impoverished town with no social security or
welfare. Played by somebody who couldn't even GO into over half of the
establishments in the city. 80 miles or so to the west, the great black
musican Amadie, arguably the founder of zydeco, was about to get his
throat run over by some white boys in a Model A. A white woman
wiped his sweaty brow with her handkerchief during one of his
performances, and her "outrageous" actions inspired his murder.
As you can see, if there was one place in the America where these folks
had it tough, the south was it. So even if you DID make it as a musician,
you still had the blues.
Times got better for a bit Musicians got better, got more respect. Guys
like Satchmo started heating the scene up. Tourists came to see what this
was all about. Then the Red Light District was wiped from the earth by
order of the US Navy (too many of their sailors weren't coming back from
shore leave.) But the music halls were starting to swing. About then,
prohibiton wiped them out of the public eye. The tourists didn't know
where to find the brothels or the booze, but the locals sure as hell did.
And it was all there. The local boys could still scratch out some cash in
clubs and on the street here and there as the economy improved, and they
could make money at that "underground" rooms where major acts and big
bands wouldn't go. Here, blues fermented, caught on with the partying
class and gave birth to the swilling, sexy rebellion that came to
symbolize rock and roll.
When prohibition collapsed and New Orleans and the urban culture was
coming back into full swing, the word was out. Louis Armstrong had an
audience waiting for him, and blues did too. It came up, the word
spread, but gradually the original significance gave way to better times.
People could figure out blues, but they sure as hell couldn't relate; they
couldn't understand how to truly sing their blues.
Record contracts, stardom, the evolution of cliche and the electric
sound...by the time it caught on worldwide, three or four decades had
passed. The industry bought the blues and selected the best musicians
out there to play it, regardless of their origin or where they came. If
they could rip off a blues riff and sell it to the masses, it suited their
needs.
Now it was possible for somebody to do a line of coke or a fifth of
expensive whiskey, sing to tens of thousands of people a night about
having the blues, climb into their helicopter with a groupie or two and
buzz off to the next town. Great blues guitar playing...but it was an
imitation.
Can they play blues? Hell, yes. But if you go down to Rampart Street and
Barracks, where the blues started as a cross between boredom and despair,
you can still see the old stoops where it started. But, most white people
don't dare visit except during Mardi Gras or some other citywide occasion.
You won't find much there except for a timeless of imagine of American
poverty that still exists there.
Five or six blocks toward the river in the French Quarter,
where the money is, you can still hear somebody banging out the blues on a
hock-shop 6 string.
Not A Speck Of Cereal
[]
[]
[] > Yup. In order to be a noncomformist, you must conform.
[]
[] The uniqueness of conformity.....
Or, the "ubiquity of conformity"... not a great band name, but might
make a cool song! (maybe song sorta weird computer game?)
----
"It is better to debate a question without answering it than to answer a question without debating it."
-- Mark Twain
..............................................................
Remove X's from my email address above to reply
chri...@microsoft.com -- Seattle, WA.
[These opinions are personal views only and only my personal views]
Les Cargill
>
> elizabeth & chris <bink...@concentric.net> wrote:
> []
> [] Les Cargill wrote:
> []
> [] > Yup. In order to be a noncomformist, you must conform.
> []
> [] The uniqueness of conformity.....
>
> Or, the "ubiquity of conformity"... not a great band name, but might
> make a cool song! (maybe song sorta weird computer game?)
Well, there's "Corrosion of Conformity", but that's a band name.
Cross marketing a band with a good computer
game is probably an idea whose time has come.
Anybody else get the feeling it's all gonna be one thing
after a while - movies, games, toys and music?
>
> ----
> "It is better to debate a question without answering it than to answer a question without debating it."
> -- Mark Twain
> ..............................................................
> Remove X's from my email address above to reply
> chri...@microsoft.com -- Seattle, WA.
> [These opinions are personal views only and only my personal views]
--
Aaron Turner
du> <Pine.GSO.3.96.981204...@thetics.europa.com> <74m4l3$86d$2...@uni00nw.unity.ncsu.edu>
Organization:
In alt.guitar Mark McDonald <m...@sonic.net> wrote:
: White guys can play the blues. Look at SRV, or Tab Benoit, or shit,
: for that matter, Duane Allman. It is just that British interpretation
: that leaves me cold. This is course is all my opinion and means about
: as much as burnt toast.
I don't understand the SRV hype, as I find him totally tedious. Give me
Jeff Beck or Jimmy Page doing something bluesy over SRV...
Aaron Turner
duckers kirk d
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I
think
that these fuckers should all die!
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Brian Rost
>
> -------------------------------------------------------------------------------
> I
> think
> that these fuckers should all die!
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
Well, actually most of them have <grin>
Gatt
> -------------------------------------------------------------------------------
> I
> think
> that these fuckers should all die!
That's what we like. Meaningless BS enclosed in cute little lines.
>
> On 15 Dec 1998, Aaron Turner wrote:
>
> >
> > du> <Pine.GSO.3.96.981204...@thetics.europa.com> <74m4l3$86d$2...@uni00nw.unity.ncsu.edu>
> > Organization:
> >
> > In alt.guitar Mark McDonald <m...@sonic.net> wrote:
> > : White guys can play the blues. Look at SRV, or Tab Benoit, or shit,
> > : for that matter, Duane Allman. It is just that British interpretation
> > : that leaves me cold. This is course is all my opinion and means about
> > : as much as burnt toast.
> >
> > I don't understand the SRV hype, as I find him totally tedious. Give me
> > Jeff Beck or Jimmy Page doing something bluesy over SRV...
> >
> > Aaron Turner
> >
> >
> >
>
>
>
Chris Gattman | "The sky is humming,
GeoMac
>
> Anybody else get the feeling it's all gonna be one thing
> after a while - movies, games, toys and music?
>
After a while?
Not A Speck Of Cereal
[...]
[] Anybody else get the feeling it's all gonna be one thing
Yes... and then there will be a revival, for novel sake, but it will
soon grow into an unstoppable rebellion against technology and all the
woe it has brought upon humanity...
...either that, or someone will just say "Hey, I got an idea. What if
we just let the users issue commands in a text form... at some sort
of.... prompt!" Talk about retro, eh?
GeoMac
>
> GeoMac wrote:
> >
> > Les Cargill wrote:
> >
> > >
> > > Anybody else get the feeling it's all gonna be one thing
> > > after a while - movies, games, toys and music?
> > >
> >
>
> Well, considering Midwest lag and all. We're still
> about 5 years out here in the middle states.
Yeah I hear you guys can still smoke in bars even!
Scuze me, I gotta go listen to my Lana Croft and the Temple of Doom CD
now.
>
> I *knew* Pantera was really a video game, though.
I think that one is a SEGA 64.
pH
John Sheehy
>I don't understand the SRV hype, as I find him totally tedious. Give me
>Jeff Beck or Jimmy Page doing something bluesy over SRV...
I think SRV had a great overall sound, an interesting style, great
phrasing, articulation, etc, but not a very "big picture" of where the
song is going to, or coming from, like others in his genre (like the
ones you mention, and Hendrix, Clapton, Trower, etc). For that reason,
he doesn't fall into my list of favorites. I have a long attention span,
and I like artists to take advantage of it.
--
<>>< ><<> ><<> <>>< ><<> <>>< <>>< ><<>
John P Sheehy <jsh...@ix.netcom.com>
><<> <>>< <>>< ><<> <>>< ><<> ><<> <>><
Les Cargill
>
> Les Cargill wrote:
>
> >
> > Anybody else get the feeling it's all gonna be one thing
> > after a while - movies, games, toys and music?
> >
>
> After a while?
Well, considering Midwest lag and all. We're still
about 5 years out here in the middle states.
I *knew* Pantera was really a video game, though.
--
Les Cargill - lcar...@worldnet.att.net
Les Cargill
>
> [] after a while - movies, games, toys and music?
>
> soon grow into an unstoppable rebellion against technology and all the
> woe it has brought upon humanity...
>
The revolution will be televised. The one with the highest ratings
wins. This battle sponsored by Surge.
I gotta stop reading McLuhan. *Shudder*.
> ...either that, or someone will just say "Hey, I got an idea. What if
> we just let the users issue commands in a text form... at some sort
> of.... prompt!" Talk about retro, eh?
You think you're kidding...
>
> ----
> "It is better to debate a question without answering it than to answer a question without debating it."
> -- Mark Twain
> ..............................................................
> Remove X's from my email address above to reply
> chri...@microsoft.com -- Seattle, WA.
> [These opinions are personal views only and only my personal views]
--
Emohawk
Carmageddon II. I've got a copy of Road Rash with a pile of stuff by
different alternative bands on it (including Soundgarden if memory servs).
I'm sure this is gonna become more common. Hell - Road Rash was worth
buying for the soundtrack. I've also got Destruction Derby II and all the
music on it is done by some little known metal outfit (and there's some cool
stuff there).
Darrin.
Les Cargill wrote in message <3675CA...@worldnet.att.net>...
>Cross marketing a band with a good computer
>game is probably an idea whose time has come.
>
Emohawk
result of the circumstances of the black players who were creating the
music? The fact that it generally has similar chord structures across the
board is more due to how the word was passed. Most of the guys playing it
weren't concerned with the structure too much. I dare say half of them
couldn't take their own music & transcribe it for you. In fact, most of
them never played a song the same way twice.
In my opinion, the analysis of blues playing is why a lot of modern players
sound so stale to me (like Sheppard & Lang for example). Imitating those
structures is a piece of cake - I mean blues in general is not terribly
complex music when you boil off everything but the chords & notes that are
played. But watch any blues player in his element, and you'll never
quantify what they're doing. That's music. It's not just notes & chords &
how they're structured...it's FEEL.
I do agree that saying only blacks can play the blues is a load of crap.
Personally, I think Jimmy Page is an awesome blues player, as is Clapton.
These guys are partially responsible for the development of the blues/rock
genre in general. The problem I have with them these days (especially
Clapton) is everything is just too damn perfect. The tone is perfect. The
notes are perfect. Every string is fretted perfectly. Every mute is
perfect. Modern music in general is just too damn perfect. I'm not
suggesting that I enjoy sloppy players - I don't. But, I enjoy music a lot
more when it's "played" as opposed to "written". That's why I really don't
care for Steve Vai & Yngwie Malmsteen & other players of that ilk much.
They tend to sound like machines rather than humans. Guitarists in general
have become more concerned with what an analyst will think of they're
playing after scruitinizing it than how it really sounds. Just pick up a
Clapton recording from the late 60's or early 70's and compare it to some of
his recent stuff. It's night and day to my ears. The boys can still play
blues - they just seem to put too much brain & not enough heart into it
these days.
My final word...we should bring back the days of recording and mixing an
album in a couple of days. No 8 or 10 month recording/mixing/mastering
bullshit. Get in there and PLAY the damn stuff. 2 of my all time favorite
albums are the debuts from Led Zeppelin & Black Sabbath. Both were done in
a hurry and on shoestring budgets. No year for
mixing/editing/overdubbing/mastering/remastering/blah/blah/blah. As the
years went by, these bands both spent more & more time in the studio & the
music became more & more sterile. That's the case with most of the bands I
like really. I don't understand how a band can say "we tried to capture
that raw enegry of our live show in the studio" (and a LOT of bands say
this), but then spend a year making everything "just so". Blows my mind.
Of course, I may just be full of shit! Well, actually, I am full of shit,
but my toilet's clogged so I thought I'd let loose here for a while...
Later,
Darrin.
Steven wrote in message <7523cd$f68$0...@208.10.3.108>...
>I've never had much empathy for the pretentious notion that only 'blacks'
can
>play the blues - or that 'the blues' is always about "feelin' lowdown".
What
>rubbish! Blues is a genre of music that has more to do with chord
structure,
>tempo and feel than it is about ethnicity. The notion the "skinny white
kids"
>like Clapton or Page or Bloomfield or any number of their contemporaries
can't
>play blues is elitist crapola!
>
>
Thrush
:In my opinion, the analysis of blues playing is why a lot of modern players
:sound so stale to me (like Sheppard & Lang for example). Imitating those
:structures is a piece of cake - I mean blues in general is not terribly
:complex music when you boil off everything but the chords & notes that are
:played. But watch any blues player in his element, and you'll never
:quantify what they're doing. That's music. It's not just notes & chords &
:how they're structured...it's FEEL.
Pheh... it's just boring now. Please, someone let the blues DIE!!!
:I do agree that saying only blacks can play the blues is a load of crap.
:Personally, I think Jimmy Page is an awesome blues player, as is Clapton.
:These guys are partially responsible for the development of the blues/rock
:genre in general. The problem I have with them these days (especially
:Clapton) is everything is just too damn perfect. The tone is perfect. The
:notes are perfect. Every string is fretted perfectly.
Ok, not Jimmy Page. Not in that "perfect" argument. Page is a REALLY sloppy
guitarist. Always was and always will be. And he admits it!
:Modern music in general is just too damn perfect. I'm not
:suggesting that I enjoy sloppy players - I don't. But, I enjoy music a lot
:more when it's "played" as opposed to "written". That's why I really don't
:care for Steve Vai & Yngwie Malmsteen & other players of that ilk much.
:They tend to sound like machines rather than humans.
Yup. Agreed. Admire their talent, don't like their music. Then again, there
are other great guitarists who are incredibly precise and yet I still find
them amazing. Yes, Robert Fripp. He doesn't just play silly runs, but
reptitive, fast pieces all over the neck. Weird ideas that aren't just speed
based. Then there's Johnny Marr, who plays quick and intricate pieces that
really work well in a pop setting...
:Just pick up a
:Clapton recording from the late 60's or early 70's and compare it to some of
:his recent stuff. It's night and day to my ears. The boys can still play
:blues - they just seem to put too much brain & not enough heart into it
:these days.
Pheh... Clapton is just a big ton of suck. Too dry... too perfect. His stuff
in the 70s is just annoying.
:
:My final word...we should bring back the days of recording and mixing an
:album in a couple of days. No 8 or 10 month recording/mixing/mastering
:bullshit. Get in there and PLAY the damn stuff. 2 of my all time favorite
:albums are the debuts from Led Zeppelin & Black Sabbath. Both were done in
:a hurry and on shoestring budgets.
Oddly enough, Robert Smith of the Cure said pretty much the same thing. Don't
think he'd go back to it, but he was commenting on how different it was since
the days of Seventeen Seconds (an incredible, stripped down album) when they'd
do the whole thing in two weeks from basic tracks to mixdown. Then there's
Disintegration where they kept going for about 8 months, laying down about 7
guitar solos per song, etc...
: As the
:years went by, these bands both spent more & more time in the studio & the
:music became more & more sterile. That's the case with most of the bands I
:like really. I don't understand how a band can say "we tried to capture
:that raw enegry of our live show in the studio" (and a LOT of bands say
:this), but then spend a year making everything "just so". Blows my mind.
I don't know about Zeppelin... Achilles Last Stand (Presence by Zep) has about
12 guitar tracks to it, but I would never call that sterile... Being in the
studio doesn't necessarily mean becoming sterile. That's a choice of the
musicians. You're right in noticing that Zep I and In Through the Out Door
have some differences, but if they didn't, I think people would complain that
the band wasn't doing anything new as they went on...
:Of course, I may just be full of shit! Well, actually, I am full of shit,
:but my toilet's clogged so I thought I'd let loose here for a while...
Do you realize that the average male has 5 pounds of undigested beef in their
GI tract almost all the time? Uh huh...
Dan Stanley
Emohawk wrote in message <757f71$81j$1...@nova.thezone.net>...
>Ah - but are not the chord structures, tempo & feel of blues music the
>result of the circumstances of the black players who were creating the
>music? The fact that it generally has similar chord structures across the
>board is more due to how the word was passed. Most of the guys playing it
>weren't concerned with the structure too much. I dare say half of them
>couldn't take their own music & transcribe it for you. In fact, most of
>them never played a song the same way twice.
Very true.
>In my opinion, the analysis of blues playing is why a lot of modern players
>sound so stale to me (like Sheppard & Lang for example). Imitating those
>structures is a piece of cake - I mean blues in general is not terribly
>complex music when you boil off everything but the chords & notes that are
>played. But watch any blues player in his element, and you'll never
>quantify what they're doing. That's music
Well said.
>The problem I have with them these days (especially
>Clapton) is everything is just too damn perfect. The tone is perfect. The
>notes are perfect. Every string is fretted perfectly. Every mute is
>perfect. Modern music in general is just too damn perfect. I'm not
>suggesting that I enjoy sloppy players - I don't. But, I enjoy music a lot
>more when it's "played" as opposed to "written".
Also well said.
>My final word...we should bring back the days of recording and mixing an
>album in a couple of days. No 8 or 10 month recording/mixing/mastering
>bullshit. Get in there and PLAY the damn stuff. 2 of my all time favorite
>albums are the debuts from Led Zeppelin & Black Sabbath. Both were done in
>a hurry and on shoestring budgets.
Lets add The Beatles "Please Please Me", Van Halen's first record, SRV's
"Texas Flood", Elvis' first singles... I'll bet most of the rock and blues
records that really made us sit up and notice were recorded that way.
>I don't understand how a band can say "we tried to capture
>that raw enegry of our live show in the studio" (and a LOT of bands say
>this), but then spend a year making everything "just so". Blows my mind.
Then, of course, if thier career last long enough, they go back to the quick
and dirty method, and make THAT the focus of the marketing campaign...
Dan
Dan Stanley
Thrush wrote in message <758f3k$99s$1...@uni00nw.unity.ncsu.edu>...
>:Of course, I may just be full of shit! Well, actually, I am full of shit,
>:but my toilet's clogged so I thought I'd let loose here for a while...
>
>Do you realize that the average male has 5 pounds of undigested beef in
their
>GI tract almost all the time? Uh huh...
Not mine. Strictly veal and baby seal meat.
SDan
Gatt
> It's already happening really. Iron Maiden did the soundtrack for
> Carmageddon II. I've got a copy of Road Rash with a pile of stuff by
Is that a BAD THING?!? When I was in college, my friends and I used to
crank Somewhere in Time and play AutoDuel. I'm beginning to suspect the
software designers simply overheard us.
> different alternative bands on it (including Soundgarden if memory servs).
> I'm sure this is gonna become more common. Hell - Road Rash was worth
> buying for the soundtrack. I've also got Destruction Derby II and all the
> music on it is done by some little known metal outfit (and there's some cool
> stuff there).
>
> Darrin.
>
> Les Cargill wrote in message <3675CA...@worldnet.att.net>...
> >Cross marketing a band with a good computer
> >game is probably an idea whose time has come.
> >
> >Anybody else get the feeling it's all gonna be one thing
> >after a while - movies, games, toys and music?
> >
>
>
>
>
>
Chris Gattman | "The sky is humming,
Brian Rost
>
>
> Pheh... it's just boring now. Please, someone let the blues DIE!!!
>
Since you seem to like Jimmy Page and Zeppelin how can you you be so
down on the blues? Led Zep I which you mentioned as a favorite is almost
nothing BUT blues. Sure they don't sound just like Muddy Waters and
Howling Wolf, but there's no doubt that at that point in time they were
basically playing blues.
The whole point of the longevity of the blues is that people are still
getting mileage out of the form. Hell, go see any jazz artist and you'll
probably hear them do at least one blues. Sure, there is plenty of dreck
out there in the blues vein, but we don't have to throw out the baby
with the bath water just because too many people are trying to be the
next SRV.
If something is good, it's good. Just because other music has evolved
out of the blues doesn't make the blues any less good (or bad).
steve...@my-dejanews.com
Thanks for sharing this:)
Steve
>
>
-----------== Posted via Deja News, The Discussion Network ==----------
http://www.dejanews.com/ Search, Read, Discuss, or Start Your Own
Ben Keller
>
> It's already happening really. Iron Maiden did the soundtrack for
> Carmageddon II. I've got a copy of Road Rash with a pile of stuff by
> I'm sure this is gonna become more common. Hell - Road Rash was worth
> buying for the soundtrack. I've also got Destruction Derby II and all the
> music on it is done by some little known metal outfit (and there's some cool
> stuff there).
>
> Darrin.
>
Yeah...Trent Reznor from NIN did the music for "quake" which was a
couple years back. Stabbing Westward did the sound track for the new
"duke Nukem". Its not just unknown bands. Personally, I'm putting the
finishing touches on the soundtrack to the newest fighting game...Its
called "Carl vs. Sef".... the graphics are decent, and there are a bunch
of cool moves like "anti-semetic uppercut" and "Bad Love flying
dropkick"...
keller
Thrush
:Thrush wrote:
:>
:>
:> Pheh... it's just boring now. Please, someone let the blues DIE!!!
:>
:
:Since you seem to like Jimmy Page and Zeppelin how can you you be so
:down on the blues? Led Zep I which you mentioned as a favorite is almost
:nothing BUT blues. Sure they don't sound just like Muddy Waters and
:Howling Wolf, but there's no doubt that at that point in time they were
:basically playing blues.
Ah yes, but Zeppelin also delved into other sorts of music... I'm a fan of
their weirder shit. Everyone else can have Black Dog and most of Zep IV.
I'll take Zep III, Physical Grafitti, bits of Presence and In Through the Out
Door, and the song "Wearing and Tearing."
Take a song like "the Crunge." That's just weird. Odd changes, goofy ass
lyrics... a sense of humor from Zep? You bet. "D'yer Maker" was a decent
jump into reggae influence. "That's the Way" has Jimmy's folk influence
going. "Achilles Last Stand" is simply one of the best demonstrations of
guitar multi-tracking ever... a powerhouse. "In the Evening" has a great
guitar solo in it with the trem pressed down and lifting during the line,
plus all those great drum effects. And how about that killer
guitar sound on "No Quarter"? "Carouselambra" is just one of my favorite Zep
songs ever... and I bet most people skip it on the disc. "In the Light" is
another incredible longer piece that doesn't get the recognition it deserves.
Nah... Zep wasn't BLUES. Sure, they had a bunch of blues based stuff, but
they were doing all sorts of weird stuff in the studio and writing FAR past
blues all the time. If they didn't do as much blues stuff as they did, they'd
probably be considered among the same ranks as Genesis and other mid 70s art
rockers.
:The whole point of the longevity of the blues is that people are still
:getting mileage out of the form. Hell, go see any jazz artist and you'll
:probably hear them do at least one blues. Sure, there is plenty of dreck
:out there in the blues vein, but we don't have to throw out the baby
:with the bath water just because too many people are trying to be the
:next SRV.
I've never really cared for babies... especially ugly ones. Let's throw it
out with the bathwater while no one's looking... it'll be good for a laugh.
:If something is good, it's good. Just because other music has evolved
:out of the blues doesn't make the blues any less good (or bad).
But it can be good and VERY overplayed... like the Blues. It would be nice to
divert everyone's attention for at least a decade or two.
Emohawk
annoying in most cases. Stick some stuff I like on there though, especially
for action games, and I'll crank it.
Darrin.
Gatt wrote in message ...
Emohawk
>
>:Personally, I think Jimmy Page is an awesome blues player, as is Clapton.
>:These guys are partially responsible for the development of the blues/rock
>:Clapton) is everything is just too damn perfect. The tone is perfect. The
>:notes are perfect. Every string is fretted perfectly.
>
sloppy
>guitarist. Always was and always will be. And he admits it!
Maybe I should qualify that a bit. I agree that Page is a really sloppy
guitarist. He's one good reason there's still hope for me! I'm a HUGE
Zeppelin fan, by the way, and even the later stuff (like Presence which you
mention later on) just blows my mind. However, the amount of layering &
whatnot detracts somewhat from the energy that the earlier albums had. I
still love it because the arrangements are simply brilliant (and I dare say
John Paul Jones had quite a bit to do with that on the later stuff). But,
even in his sloppiness, Pagey became polished from the production point of
view. I think he's still one of the coolest players around in a live
setting - well, when he allows himself to really cut loose anyway. It's
just that back in the Zep days, he was doing that every night. I guess it's
just that I prefer live music to recorded music more than anything.
>:Modern music in general is just too damn perfect. I'm not
>:suggesting that I enjoy sloppy players - I don't. But, I enjoy music a
lot
>:more when it's "played" as opposed to "written". That's why I really
don't
>:care for Steve Vai & Yngwie Malmsteen & other players of that ilk much.
>:They tend to sound like machines rather than humans.
>
>Yup. Agreed. Admire their talent, don't like their music. Then again,
there
>are other great guitarists who are incredibly precise and yet I still find
>them amazing. Yes, Robert Fripp. He doesn't just play silly runs, but
>reptitive, fast pieces all over the neck. Weird ideas that aren't just
speed
>based. Then there's Johnny Marr, who plays quick and intricate pieces that
>really work well in a pop setting...
Indeed. I'm with you on this.
>Pheh... Clapton is just a big ton of suck. Too dry... too perfect. His
stuff
>in the 70s is just annoying.
I'm talking the 60's/early 70's. Mostly the Cream stuff really.
>I don't know about Zeppelin... Achilles Last Stand (Presence by Zep) has
about
>12 guitar tracks to it, but I would never call that sterile... Being in
the
>studio doesn't necessarily mean becoming sterile. That's a choice of the
>musicians. You're right in noticing that Zep I and In Through the Out Door
>have some differences, but if they didn't, I think people would complain
that
>the band wasn't doing anything new as they went on...
Yeah - you're right. Perhaps sterlile wasn't a real good word. As I
mentioned earlier, it's probably just a personal preference thing. As for
fans probably complaining because the band wasn't doing anything new, I
really don't know about that. Maybe the critics would complain, but it's a
tough call with the fans. These days, I see people complaining more because
bands DID change. Take Metallica & Megadeth for example. There are more
older fans of these two bands complaining about the change than there are
new fans who like it. Then I see a band like AC/DC who have released the
same album 25 or 30 times, and can fill any arena anywhere in the world on
any given night, guaranteed (and I like AC/DC also - well, up to about 1985
or so...). Granted, for some bands, the change works and is even necessary
for survival. I think the changes really show there's more there than you
expect if it works. U2 is another good example. I really like older U2,
but I really detest what they're doing now. That's personal taste, but I
will admit that they are doing a good job of pleasing the masses. And, the
stuff they're doing isn't boring by any stretch. It just isn't my thing. I
guess if you change your approach and do it well, that's fine. If you don't
change much, but still do it well, kudos to you. But either way, if you
don't do it well, it's goodnight...
>:Of course, I may just be full of shit! Well, actually, I am full of shit,
>:but my toilet's clogged so I thought I'd let loose here for a while...
>
>Do you realize that the average male has 5 pounds of undigested beef in
their
>GI tract almost all the time? Uh huh...
Thanks for making this a perfect post - good points, and I busted a gut
laughing when I read this. Nice job dude...
Darrin.
Jeff Blanks
> But it can be good and VERY overplayed... like the Blues. It would be
nice to
> divert everyone's attention for at least a decade or two.
My $.02:
The blues is popular these days for the wrong reasons. The '80s were
supposedly about "image" instead of music; well, the '90s are about
_credibility_ instead of music, and the blues has been a great beneficiary
of that shift. People don't seem to be able or willing to make a
distinction between music with "no feel" and music
_whose_feeling_they_personally_don't_like_. Vai and Malmsteen don't sound
like "machines rather than humans" to me--they just sound like a different
kind of human. Well, anyway, no one wants to be accused of not having any
_feeling_, right? It's one of the lowest insults you could make--at
least, coming from the people making it. So, eventually, even the
shredders taking after Yngwie and Vai trade their shred licks for blues
licks and their Spandex tights for baggy jeans and their pastel Ibanezes
for Les Pauls, etc., and no one pounces on them anymore because they're
making music that's socially _OK_--that's got all the coded indicators of
_feeling_.
Unfortunately, the blues is also a _very_conservative_ tradition--not only
is there practically _no_ room for real creativity, creativity practically
goes against what the blues are about right now. Net result: Not only
does everyone still sound the same, just in a different way, they don't
even have the raw playing chops they had in the '80s. There is now _no_
cutting edge of rock guitar _playing_ to speak of, as far as I can tell,
since practically everyone's doing either post-grunge (which works off the
punk anti-virtuosic ethic) or blues. I can't even raise the people I need
for a band because _no_one_ is willing to do the music I'm thinking of
(and, yes, present it the way I want--if the music's there, you can be as
glam as you wanna be IMSNHO) because it's _uncool_. And I can't even be
sure _anyone's_ really _happy_ with the choices they seem to feel
pressured to make. Am I the only one who sees something
_fundamentally_wrong_ with this????
I happen to like the, yes, _feel_ of the shred style. I'm attracted to
that, and I want to write music that puts it to its best use. If you
don't like that, fine--the line for Johnny Lang forms on the left. But at
least give me the respect you ask for yourself (or at least get out of my
way) by not wishing ill on the things I'm interested in. I realize there
are _serious_ problems with shred, but am I (once again) alone in thinking
that _solving_ these problems is a MUCH better way of working than just
abandoning the whole deal?
--Jeff (who bought a brand-new Washburn 36-fret electric just last year
and _loves_ it) ;-)
Brian Rost
>
> Unfortunately, the blues is also a _very_conservative_ tradition--not only
> is there practically _no_ room for real creativity, creativity practically
> goes against what the blues are about right now. Net result: Not only
> does everyone still sound the same, just in a different way, they don't
> even have the raw playing chops they had in the '80s. There is now _no_
> cutting edge of rock guitar _playing_ to speak of, as far as I can tell,
> since practically everyone's doing either post-grunge (which works off the
> punk anti-virtuosic ethic) or blues. I can't even raise the people I need
> for a band because _no_one_ is willing to do the music I'm thinking of
> (and, yes, present it the way I want--if the music's there, you can be as
> glam as you wanna be IMSNHO) because it's _uncool_. And I can't even be
> sure _anyone's_ really _happy_ with the choices they seem to feel
> pressured to make. Am I the only one who sees something
> _fundamentally_wrong_ with this????
Well, I agree that blues is a conservative tradition, actually almost
ANY tradition is conservative because progression means the tradition
changes into something else. That of course is what really DOES happen
to traditions over time, but people seem to be obsessed with maintaining
the status quo.
As far as creativity in blues, I disagree, but that's because I've been
interested in blues for a long time and watched a lot of stretching of
the genre. For one example, the common acceptance of Jimi Hendrix as a
blues man (witness SRV, Buddy Guy, etc. paying tribute) would have been
heresy in 1967. You could also say that creativity within the blues
framework soon puts you outside the genre, with Ry Cooder a good
example. Listen to him playing with Ali Farka Toure (an African
guitarist) sometime. I'll be damned if it's not one of the best blues
recordings I own, but it's not "really" blues in the strictest sense.
The best example overall is in jazz, though, where the blues is still a
well to draw from. It took me years of listening to jazz to start
hearing all the permutations of the blues that are present in the
repertoire. Take a piece like "Good bye Pork Pie Hat", which is very
much a blues to my ears although it is definitely not a traditional 12
bar structure.
As far as the "uncool" nature of shred, that could be said about almost
any style that has come and gone in popularity. I also get frustrated
with people who discard musical styles for fashion.
As far as "cutting edge" playing, music somemtimes needs to retrench and
absorb innovations. I play music in a number of styles and have seen
this happen outside of rock. Jazz for instance is still grappling with
life after Coltrane and he died thrty years ago! Bluegrass seemed ready
to be overtaken by the "newgrass" players of the 70s and 80s, but the
90s have seen a rise of the "new traditional" players who are looing
back forty years and more for their inspiration. C&W is in yet another
cycle of "going uptown" after a return to more traditional country in
the early 80s (which had rejected the creeping pop influences to go back
to the honky-tonk stylings of the 50s). In the 80s, a lot of Celtic
(folk) acts added synthesizers and went for a "new age" approach, while
the latest acts are back to acoustic instruments and a more traditional
feel. Sometimes the cutting edge is also popular and mainstream
(Beatles, Hendrix, Van Halen, Flecktones) sometimes it's not (Velvet
Underground, Zappa). Right now is a period where the cutting edge is in
the underground, and that's OK.
Also, keep in mind that rock music is getting old, it's been over forty
years since Elvis, Chuck Berry, etc. burst on the scene. By comparsion,
jazz and blues are only about 70-80 years old. It may be time for
another huge shift in pop music culture (actually that could be very
exciting!) in which case worrying about the state of rock guitar may
become a moot point <grin>
Puffy
> john_...@nothere.com (Thrush) wrote:
>
> --Jeff (who bought a brand-new Washburn 36-fret electric just last year
> and _loves_ it) ;-)
They still make those? Post a pic real soon, man.
Puff
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Phantom Post
>
>> --Jeff (who bought a brand-new Washburn 36-fret electric just last year
>> and _loves_ it) ;-)
>
>They still make those? Post a pic real soon, man.
>
>Puff
>
Betcha we can argue about the placement of the neck PU, and harmonics, on that
one for quite a while. What do ya do with 36 freats?
PAT
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verkuilen john v
>john_...@nothere.com (Thrush) wrote:
>> But it can be good and VERY overplayed... like the Blues. It would be
>nice to
>> divert everyone's attention for at least a decade or two.
>My $.02:
>The blues is popular these days for the wrong reasons. The '80s were
>supposedly about "image" instead of music; well, the '90s are about
>_credibility_ instead of music, and the blues has been a great beneficiary
>of that shift.
[snip]
I agree with your basic assessment. Credibility has become the image of
the '90's, even if it's as fake as '80's glam at its worst. I'm no shredder
fan (closest I come is Alex Lifeson or Robert Fripp, both of whom *can* shred
with the best if they want but don't all that much) but I do agree that there
is a lot of fad behind the sentiment against chops.
Rock's anti-chops view I think came out of reaction against jazz and pop
(i.e., jazz) musicians of the '50's who had more than enough chops to make
an '80's shredder green with envy and often attacked rock 'n' roll for its
simplicity. Thus there is a contradictory attitude stuck at the heart of
rock music: "authentic" rock is seen as simple. While I agree that a lot
of good stuff is easy the fact that something is easy doesn't make it good.
And the fact that something is complex doesn't make it bad.
No matter what music you play chops won't hurt you. Technique to spare isn't
going to hurt at all whether you play three chord folk or something hellishly
complicated and, to my mind, there is no excuse for sloppy playing. I like
playing three chord folk a lot but when I do I always try to throw in a little
extra if there's room--some interesting picking, chord substitutions or
inversions, etc. True not every performance is up to snuff due to a number
of factors like nervousness, illness, or off-stage distractions, but one
should always strive for as good and clean a performance as one can.
(I just quit a band in part because of sloppiness on the part of the band's
founder.)
>--Jeff (who bought a brand-new Washburn 36-fret electric just last year
>and _loves_ it) ;-)
To quote Chef: "What the hell *is* that thing!? ... No, what *is* that
thing!?"
Does this have an extended lower range and upper range, just upper range,
or what? The upper range I think I'd have little use for (I rarely get
higher than the 15th fret) but the lower range would be cool.
Jay
--
J. Verkuilen ja...@uiuc.edu
"...and so castles made of sand slip into the sea, eventually."
--Jimi Hendrix