Gibson buys Samick!
Mr. J
finalized. Heard from a Gibson today dealer that the deal is now done. He
sells Gibson, yet he is sick about it.
I've been playing since the sixties. Had my share of Gibsons. I can say,
without reservation, that the current Samick Pauls I've looked at beat out, in
overall quality control, their Gibson inspirations, and for a lot less money.
Which is exactly why Gibson has bought Samick.
I've got a couple of Samicks I have to buy before they cost a lot more, with
Gibson on the headstock...
Have at it.
Mr. J
I looked at new Gibson Les Pauls, a bunch, this time last year, out in Vegas,
at Mars music. Driving to the deep south, I stopped at a shop in Alexandria,
Louisiana that was a Samick dealer. The Les Paul Samick copies were better
than the so-called real thing. Ran into a Samick paul recently, locally. Same
high quality.
Mr. J wrote in message <9dfh73$468$1...@news.datasync.com>...
>Gibson has bought Samick. Heard it first from a Samick dealer... hadn't been
>finalized. Heard from a Gibson dealer, today, that the deal is now done. He
©Citrus©
Mr. J <gitf...@fiberia.com> wrote in message
news:9dfh73$468$1...@news.datasync.com...
Rex Mundi
Hopefully Gibson will keep Samick intact and let them maintain their quality
control. Regarding the headstock, I have an Epiphone SG which says Gibson
on the truss rod cover. I've heard that all Epiphones are Samick.
>
Dan Stanley
They are. Gibson licensed Samick to make the guitars for them; now ( if this
is true), they can simply pay themselves. Expect the worst...Gibson hasn't
done well by the other companies they've bought, and there are many.
Samick makes lots of other guitars for other companies, too. It'll be
interesting to see how this all plays out. Will Gibson still allow that?
Actually, given the few things I've heard about Gibson's precarious
position, I wouldn't be surprised to find that, in actuality, Samick bought
Gibson!
Dan
Tone
made in the U.S. I don't think that Gibson buying Samick is a good thing.
Right now, a very nice guitar for a very nice price can be had in Samick, with
the name, Samick, on the headstock. Looking at current Gibson U.S. quality and
pricing, I doubt that Gibson bought Samick to keep the dollar/value/Samick
formula for the consumer intact.
"Mr. J" wrote:
>
> Gibson has bought Samick. Heard it first from a Samick dealer... hadn't been
> finalized. Heard from a Gibson dealer, today, that the deal is now done. He
> sells Gibson, yet he is sick about it.
> I've been playing since the sixties. Had my share of Gibsons. I can say,
> without reservation, that the current Samick Pauls I've looked at beat out,
in
> overall quality control, their current Gibson inspirations, and for a lot
less
> money.
> Which is exactly why Gibson has bought Samick.
> There are a couple of Samicks I have to buy before they cost a lot more,
Twang
been
> finalized. Heard from a Gibson today dealer that the deal is now done. He
> sells Gibson, yet he is sick about it.
He's guessing his Samick line will increase in cost to him, or the quality
will deteriorate, probably.
Gibsons probably looking at the growing reputation Samick has acheived with
their nameplate epiphone/gibson, as well as what the Samick line has
done..and then there are all those other off brands they make.
How many companies has gibson bought up in the past?
> I've been playing since the sixties.
Me, Too!
>Had my share of Gibsons.
Not me. Had my share of Ricks. Guilds. Fenders. G&L. ----and Eko, and Sears
no-name, and Harmony, (can't forget the big shots *G* )
>I can say, without reservation, that the current Samick Pauls I've >looked
at beat out, in overall quality control, their Gibson >inspirations, and for
a lot less money.
I can't argue with what you've seen. But I do point out it's not an easy
view to find. Samick dealers seem pretty rare at this point.
>Which is exactly why Gibson has bought Samick.
No, I think it's much bigger than that.
If you seriously think that Gibson is feeling some pain over the relatively
unknown Samick line think about who's buying what here.
> I've got a couple of Samicks I have to buy before they cost a lot >more,
with Gibson on the headstock...
That might be a good idea, but they wont have Gibson on the headstock, do
you think?
More likely, Epiphone production will be more consistent. Higher grade Epis
will appear, more-that is. The Samick line may well continue under that
brand, but less competitive with both gibson and epi.
You'd think Gibson would be offering, under the Samick name, improved
competition for the fender and other low to mid end strat tele p jazz bass
types. (something epiphone did crap with)
To my mind, a those would be good moves. Broadens Gibsons line to all
styles, prices, and keeps Gibson/Epiphone stable.
Then there's all the diddly shit ... small amps, headphone amps, pa's, stuff
Samick already makes a lot of. And Gibson just reduced Electar
considerably...so there's room there for Electar to grow.
> Have at it.
Barring outright stupidity--which is always a possible corporate
reality--let's consider that Epiphone is doing very well, Gibson just bought
those trace elliot amps, and the market is pretty damned good. Larger than
ever before, I'd wager, readily.
This could be a good thing for everyone..
More consistent Epiphone production and delivery.
Competition for all fenders models and price points.
Lower prices on incidentals of certain varities.
and maybe enough increased profit that gibson can keep the les paul price
down and increase it's lustre with better quality control.
Look at epis recent additions.. most are non set neck versions of restyled
past gibson designs... lower price point guitars from epiphone which is
already producing a full range of instrument.
Obviously, if epiphone is doing well enough to attempt a specific sub-market
niche or market sub-niche .. (the E series are all pretty radical).. well..
aren't there other market niches?
Hard to say, but if I can come up with fairly reasonable shit, I'd bet it's
not all gloom and doom for Gibson or Samick.
GAX70
yeah, Gibson started the long slide in the early 70s. Kinda not
surprising seeing as how they told Les Paul to take a walk and only
begged him back when Leo Fender released the tele. Seems they are JUST
businessmen. NOT a musicians soul in the bunch. This way they'll keep
that really important thing, money, coming in. With increasing
competition from many sources i was getting the feeling they would be
basically history in another decade. Now they'll continue on,
providing cheap stuff, good stuff made that way ONLY because of others
involvement and just plain LOTS AND LOTS of stuff.
GAX70
>Post Script:
>I looked at new Gibson Les Pauls, a bunch, this time last year, out in Vegas,
>at Mars music. Driving to the deep south, I stopped at a shop in Alexandria,
>Louisiana that was a Samick dealer. The Les Paul Samick copies were better
>than the so-called real thing. Ran into a Samick paul recently, locally. Same
>high quality.
Once again American (business) got LAZY and Asians kicked their butt.
Increasingly all we're gonna do is BUY what someone else creates. So
much for American ingenuity and innovativation i guess. Some historian
must have this on a timetable, i mean Rome, etc.
HPIMan
biggest guitar manufacturer in the world (I'm guessing here). Truth is most of
the Korean made, entry level giutars come from the samick plant. Here are a few
big name manufacturers who contract samick to make their bottom end guitars, and
slap the big name on the headstock...
Washburn, Hamer, Kramer, Ibanez, ESP (LTD series), Gibson. I think Peavey, and
the fender neck thru Stagemaster guitars also come from samick.
Chances are if your "big name" guitar has a little sticker on the back of the
headstock that says made in Korea, chances are it is made by Samick. I personally
have 2 giutars that I think are Samick made: Hamer duo-tone (import) and Ibanez
RG220. The RG 220 was in bad shape and was set up poorly. I replaced the pickups
with a dimarzio tone zone and a PAF Pro. I also trashed the single locking trem
for an extra Floyd original I had laying around. Now its one of my best playing /
sounding /looking guitars.
I wonder how much they paid??? If this pans out it would be a wise buisiness
move. IMHO Gibson could learn a thing or 2 about manufacturing well made, useable
guitars at a fair price.
Garrett
GAX70
snip
>Chances are if your "big name" guitar has a little sticker on the back of the
>headstock that says made in Korea, chances are it is made by Samick.
they also have a new plant in Indonesia, another place that turns out
lots of lower end geets.
>IMHO Gibson could learn a thing or 2 about manufacturing well made, useable guitars at a fair price.
Hey, what do ya think they've been doin with all the money they been
makin off them high price guitars of theirs? This musta been some huge
deal. I can't see why Sammick would want to sell. Unless they've so
flooded the market their sales have dropped off.
Long Timer
another arena. Wish I would have known about the possibility of this deal. I
would have mounted an email campaign urging him not to do it. Gibson greed can
only hurt the dollar/quality/value ratio, unless a minor miracle occurs.
Gibson might even pull a Gretsch.... high prices for non U.S. made goods. I'm
buying some nicer Samicks while I can. Can get the Big Apple signature series
jazz box (a real beauty), with hardshell case, for 500. Can get a paul in
bird's eye maple (also a beaut) for 350. Will do. These two are easily on a
par with Gibson, Guild, and Gretsch. Scoop your fav before Gibson gets in and,
"changes things." The set neck sg is real nice. The set-neck pauls are great.
The set neck 335 is a real humdinger. No secret that Samick has put the best
out with the Samick name on them. I guess, just too close for Gibson comfort.
Spend a grand or so now and score some, or rue the day further upline.
GAX70 wrote in message
Twang
HPIMan <hpi...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:3AFB88EB...@hotmail.com...
> Intreesting... can you post a web site we can read up on? Samick is
probably the
> biggest guitar manufacturer in the world (I'm guessing here). Truth is
most of
> the Korean made, entry level giutars come from the samick plant. Here are
a few
> big name manufacturers who contract samick to make their bottom end
guitars, and
> slap the big name on the headstock...
> Washburn
I had heard that Washburn was made by a different Korean manufacturer.
Several times, in fact. But I've not looked it up.
>Hamer, Kramer, Ibanez, ESP (LTD series), Gibson. I think Peavey, and
> the fender neck thru Stagemaster guitars also come from samick.
>
> Chances are if your "big name" guitar has a little sticker on the back of
the
> headstock that says made in Korea, chances are it is made by Samick. I
personally
> have 2 giutars that I think are Samick made: Hamer duo-tone (import) and
Ibanez
> RG220. The RG 220 was in bad shape and was set up poorly. I replaced the
pickups
> with a dimarzio tone zone and a PAF Pro. I also trashed the single locking
trem
> for an extra Floyd original I had laying around. Now its one of my best
playing /
> sounding /looking guitars.
>
> I wonder how much they paid??? If this pans out it would be a wise
buisiness
> move. IMHO Gibson could learn a thing or 2 about manufacturing well made,
useable
> guitars at a fair price.
> Garrett
Well.. they did hire Samick, a long time ago, and did oversee production on
epis. I think Gibson should get as much credit for that as they are due.
twang
Twang
Long Timer <tu...@songsmith.com> wrote in message
news:9dhd7v$kd6$1...@news.datasync.com...
> Some rich Korean fellow just got richer, and is probably off to conquer
yet
> another arena. Wish I would have known about the possibility of this deal.
I
> would have mounted an email campaign urging him not to do it. Gibson greed
can
> only hurt the dollar/quality/value ratio,
How can you say that? Gibsons price on the Samick manufactured Epiphones has
been very good to excellent.
Samick, even as it's own company, would love to have some of the lustre of
the Gibson nameplate.. and the distribution, and probably a lot of other
things Gibson had, but they had to struggle for.
Samicks line wont disappear, I'd bet, and if it's kept going, I don't see
how Gibson would want it to deteriorate.
Of course, shit does happen.
unless a minor miracle occurs.
> Gibson might even pull a Gretsch.... high prices for non U.S. made goods.
Are the Gretsches worth it or not? A USA stamp is only, to me, a general
indication that the quality and craftsmanship and materials are superior. A
chance, nothing carved in stone.
I'm
> buying some nicer Samicks while I can. Can get the Big Apple signature
series
> jazz box (a real beauty), with hardshell case, for 500. Can get a paul in
> bird's eye maple (also a beaut) for 350. Will do. These two are easily on
a
> par with Gibson, Guild, and Gretsch. Scoop your fav before Gibson gets in
and,
> "changes things."
You could have a point, I suppose, but I fully expect those guitars to
continue being made, and without a dramatic price increase.
set neck sg is real nice. The set-neck pauls are great.
> The set neck 335 is a real humdinger. No secret that Samick has put the
best
> out with the Samick name on them. I guess, just too close for Gibson
comfort.
I just don't understand the complete negativity toward Gibson...
haven't they made any good decisions?
> Spend a grand or so now and score some, or rue the day further upline.
It could be good advice.. but it could be meaningless. I wish you're opinion
expressed something besides 'gibson sucks and will screw us'.
?
twang
Jack PEC
America coffee farms which are owned by the Japanese, not the people from
central & south America.
Why get upset about this, because we also sold our soul when we sold Hollywood
to Sony
Dougtrueblood
Hartley Peavey bought gibson.......
Doug
Dan Stanley
"GAX70" <ig...@notsure.com> wrote in message
news:3afb6480...@news.mindspring.com...
> On 11 May 2001 02:02:11 GMT, Mr. J <gitf...@fiberia.com> wrote:
>
> >Gibson has bought Samick. Heard it first from a Samick dealer... hadn't
been
> >finalized. Heard from a Gibson today dealer that the deal is now done. He
> >sells Gibson, yet he is sick about it.
>
> surprising seeing as how they told Les Paul to take a walk and only
> begged him back when Leo Fender released the tele.
Huh? Fender released the Tele back in '48 or so ( called it the Broadcaster,
but that's another story...), and Gibson slapped Les' good name on thier
first solid body in, what, '53 or something. So...what exactly are you
trying to say, up there?
Gibson started their slide around the same time as Fender, late 60's into
the seventies, but had reintroduced the LP ( discontinued as we know it in
'60, although the first "SG"s were called "Les Pauls") by '68 or so.
Gibson and Fender both started coming back in the early 80's, and Fender has
pretty much ( IMHO) kept an even keel, making pretty good guitars
consistently since then, while Gibson seemed to start going off the deep end
in the late 80's or early 90's. I think it's because they are run by a mad
man...but that just might be me.
>Seems they are JUST
> businessmen. NOT a musicians soul in the bunch. This way they'll keep
> that really important thing, money, coming in. With increasing
> competition from many sources i was getting the feeling they would be
> basically history in another decade. Now they'll continue on,
> providing cheap stuff, good stuff made that way ONLY because of others
> involvement and just plain LOTS AND LOTS of stuff.
Just so you know, Gibson's main source of guitar revenue for the last
several years has been their Epiphone line, made by Samick...essentially, if
this news about the purchase of Samick is true, Gibson is just taking over
control of an outside jobber who does a lot of work for them anyway. Nothing
to get your panties in a bunch about!
Their other main source of guitar revenue has been the Hysterical Reissue
instruments...let's not even go there!
Dan
Dan Stanley
I'd have though, actually, that Samick would be in position to buy Gibson.
We'll see how this pans out. Has anyone seen anything solid about this? On
Harmony Central or anything, or in one of the music retail rags?
Dan
Long Timer
something with regard to genuine quality, on the market, and in the actual
hands of players (I've had a few in my hands, and was glad to have them). The
recent offerings are overpriced and very hit and miss, quality-wise. Gibson
has been getting by on the Name with regard to honest apples to apples,
oranges to oranges comparisons. The nicer Samicks are very nice, with higher
overall quality control, the equal of a nice Gibson, and for Much Much less
money. I looked at an Epiphone Joe Pass model for a grand yesterday. The
Samick Big Apple blows it away (Samick saving its Best for itself and its own
Name), and is nicer looking, for 500, WITH a hardshell case. I'll be scoring a
Samick set-neck Les Paul knockoff in bird's eye maple for 350 bucks, that
makes the thousand dollar epi in the shop yesterday look like a poor cousin,
and would set someone back an easy 2 grand to cop an equal in Gibson. Do you
Really Think Gibson will allow such to continue for too much longer? Look at
the name brand tennis shoes made for a relative pittance overseas, yet going
for top dollar in the states. I have always enjoyed your posts, Twang. I would
think that the days of a 350 guitar that matches a Gibson of 2 grand or more,
coming from Gibson itself, now that is owns Samick, will soon enough be over.
Twang wrote in message ...
>I just don't understand the complete negativity toward Gibson...
>haven't they made any good decisions?
Dan Stanley
"Twang" <tw...@dtgnet.com> wrote in message
news:P7XK6.268$5J2....@newsfeed.slurp.net...
>
> HPIMan <hpi...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
> news:3AFB88EB...@hotmail.com...
> > Intreesting... can you post a web site we can read up on? Samick is
> probably the
> > biggest guitar manufacturer in the world (I'm guessing here). Truth is
> most of
> > the Korean made, entry level giutars come from the samick plant. Here
are
> a few
> > big name manufacturers who contract samick to make their bottom end
> guitars, and
> > slap the big name on the headstock...
> > Washburn
>
> I had heard that Washburn was made by a different Korean manufacturer.
> Several times, in fact. But I've not looked it up.
Some Washburns are made by Samick, some are made by...some other place.
Honshi? SOmething like that. Hoshino? I think it's the same place that makes
(made?) Squiers ( Korean Squires, anyway), Cort, and a couple other import
"little brother" brands.
I tend to have these facts in my brain, all rattling together and getting
all tangled. So don't take anything I say as the final word. Can anyone
confirm?
Dan
Dan Stanley
yet
> another arena. Wish I would have known about the possibility of this deal.
I
> would have mounted an email campaign urging him not to do it. Gibson greed
can
> only hurt the dollar/quality/value ratio,
You do know that Gibson and Samick have a long standing business
relationship, don't you?
> ...No secret that Samick has put the best
> out with the Samick name on them. I guess, just too close for Gibson
comfort.
> Spend a grand or so now and score some, or rue the day further upline.
Could be good advice, actually. A pre-Gibson Samick may someday have the
luster of a pre-CBS Fender. Well, that's an exageration, but you know what I
mean.
Dan Stanley
>>... Gibson greed
> can
> > only hurt the dollar/quality/value ratio,
>
> How can you say that? Gibsons price on the Samick manufactured Epiphones
has
> been very good to excellent.
> Samick, even as it's own company, would love to have some of the lustre of
> the Gibson nameplate.. and the distribution, and probably a lot of other
> things Gibson had, but they had to struggle for.
> Samicks line wont disappear, I'd bet, and if it's kept going, I don't see
> how Gibson would want it to deteriorate.
> Of course, shit does happen.
It does. Gibson doesn't have a good track record as far as the other
companies they've bought, sad to say. But I do think the Samick deal ( if it
is even true) won't be like that, since Gibson is selling TONS of Samick
built Epiphones, and needs to keep doing that to stay afloat.
Then again, as you say, shit does happen.
Will Samick stop making budget guitars for Gibson competitors? OUCH! That
will certainly change that $$$ level of the guitar biz. Or will they still
make them, but not as well...forcing other companies to look for another
jobber, or exit that price niche entirely?
Will Samick become all Epiphone, all the time?
Tune in next week for...
Dougtrueblood
<vze2...@verizon.net> writes:
>
>Some Washburns are made by Samick, some are made by...some other place.
>Honshi? SOmething like that. Hoshino? I think it's the same place that makes
>(made?) Squiers ( Korean Squires, anyway), Cort, and a couple other import
>"little brother" brands.
>
Cort makes their own guitars, they also make some of the Squiers for Fender.
Doug
GAX70
wrote:
>> Hopefully Gibson will keep Samick intact and let them maintain their
>quality control. Regarding the headstock, I have an Epiphone SG which
>>says Gibson on the truss rod cover. I've heard that all Epiphones are
>>Samick.
no shit. Essentially Gibson is DEAD. Unless they elect to copy Fender
and keep a domestic "custom shop" going, which i'm sure they will as
the profit margin is just too great to pass up.
>They are. Gibson licensed Samick to make the guitars for them; now ( if this
>is true), they can simply pay themselves. Expect the worst...Gibson hasn't
>done well by the other companies they've bought, and there are many.
They've proven themselves to be bottom liners alright.
>Samick makes lots of other guitars for other companies, too. It'll be
>interesting to see how this all plays out. Will Gibson still allow that?
Gibson wants PROFIT. Period. They don't give two shits about the
Gibson name. Think about all the contact addresses (buyers) they'll
inherit with Sammick.
>Actually, given the few things I've heard about Gibson's precarious
>position, I wouldn't be surprised to find that, in actuality, Samick bought
>Gibson!
Yeah, personally i believe this to be the case. Gibson was headed to
bankruptcy in the early 70s. Had they not begged Les Paul back they'd
be history by now. I find it HARD to believe that they amassed the
amount needed to buy the biggest company in the world. On the other
hand Sammick wins if they say Gibby bought them out. I think some ppl
might NOT buy a Gibson if they knew an Asian company bought it out,
suspecting that cost cutting would affect product. Now Sammick MIGHT
gain some legitimacy from ppl thinking they were American owned.
Norlin was a corporation that owned cement and beer companies, was the
new Gibson also a conglomerate corporation? Or just one company? Corp
might have the backing, don't think so about a smaller entity. If it
does turn out Gibby bought em i'm SURE it'll just be technical, like a
holding company or something, Sammick will run things and be in
control in reality i'd bet. They did'nt get this big being stupid.
GAX70
wrote:
>
>"GAX70" <ig...@notsure.com> wrote in message
>news:3afb6480...@news.mindspring.com...
>> On 11 May 2001 02:02:11 GMT, Mr. J <gitf...@fiberia.com> wrote:
>>
>> >Gibson has bought Samick. Heard it first from a Samick dealer... hadn't been finalized. Heard from a Gibson today dealer that the deal is now
>> >done. He sells Gibson, yet he is sick about it.
>> yeah, Gibson started the long slide in the early 70s. Kinda not
>> surprising seeing as how they told Les Paul to take a walk and only
>> begged him back when Leo Fender released the tele.
>
>Huh? Fender released the Tele back in '48 or so ( called it the Broadcaster,
>but that's another story...), and Gibson slapped Les' good name on thier
>first solid body in, what, '53 or something. So...what exactly are you
>trying to say, up there?
just what happened. Gibson told Lester to get lost with that
broomstick, then like 2 yrs later when Leo started selling them solid
geetars they hustled to get Lester back. Made them a player in the
market. Kept up good til Les pulled his name when he was gettin the ol
Devorce so's he would'nt lose his shirt. Late sixties Gib starts
producing LPs again at which time the brit blues rockers start usin
the hell out of em producing a legand that MADE Gibsons fortune to
this day, tho i think with current prices it's tapering off some.
>Gibson started their slide around the same time as Fender, late 60's into
>the seventies, but had reintroduced the LP ( discontinued as we know it in
>'60, although the first "SG"s were called "Les Pauls") by '68 or so.
don't assume cuz i mentiond two events that i inferred they both
happened at the same TIME.
>Gibson and Fender both started coming back in the early 80's, and Fender
>has pretty much ( IMHO) kept an even keel, making pretty good guitars
>consistently since then, while Gibson seemed to start going off the deep end
>in the late 80's or early 90's. I think it's because they are run by a mad
>man...but that just might be me.
Agreed. Matter of fact i'm REAL happy with my new standard Tele, even
at $350 (seems they go for 300 most places). Fact is i think Fender
has taken the lead on quality while keeping or dropping price. The
MIMs were a good idea. Might just be easier to keep on top of quality
when your other producer is just to your south instead of half a world
as is the case with Gibson. I'm still not thrilled about pseudo
bookmatching fronts and mahogony (if it is mahog, it sure don't look
like the same kind they use in domestic Gibs), etc. Actualy i'm kinda
surprised at how good the pu's in the tele sound. Seems most ppl
change out the Korean LP pu's.
>>Seems they are JUST
>> businessmen. NOT a musicians soul in the bunch. This way they'll keep
>> that really important thing, money, coming in. With increasing
>> competition from many sources i was getting the feeling they would be
>> basically history in another decade. Now they'll continue on,
>> providing cheap stuff, good stuff made that way ONLY because of others
>> involvement and just plain LOTS AND LOTS of stuff.
>Just so you know, Gibson's main source of guitar revenue for the last
>several years has been their Epiphone line, made by Samick...essentially, if
>this news about the purchase of Samick is true, Gibson is just taking over
>control of an outside jobber who does a lot of work for them anyway. Nothing to get your panties in a bunch about!
Umm, ain't it obvious? I KNOW. Korean production has saved their butts
in recent years. How do you take over a "jobber" that's the biggest
producer in the world tho? These guys make about everything for about
everyone. To sell could mean Gibson stops doing business with LOTS of
companys drying up sales. I mean they could stop the $500 LP, raise it
to $700 and TONS of stores just HERE would be goin OUCH. But what
could they do? It'd take YEARS to get another cheap/GOOD maker set up.
Unless Sammick is already poised to do that? HMMMMM, they DO have a
new facility in Indonesia, wonder if THAT was part of the deal? Btw, i
get pissed whenever i think someone is trying to corner the market so
they can GOUGE the hell outta the user.
>Their other main source of guitar revenue has been the Hysterical Reissue
>instruments...let's not even go there!
like i said in another post, i think they'll go "custom shop" with
this one and maybe further increase prices. Or start getting some
custom money away from "boutique" makers.
time will tell.
GAX70
wrote:
>"Twang" <tw...@dtgnet.com> wrote in message
>news:P7XK6.268$5J2....@newsfeed.slurp.net...
>>
>> HPIMan <hpi...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
>> news:3AFB88EB...@hotmail.com...
>> > Intreesting... can you post a web site we can read up on? Samick is
>> >probably the biggest guitar manufacturer in the world (I'm guessing
>> >here). Truth is most of the Korean made, entry level giutars come from
>> >the samick plant. Here are a few
>> > big name manufacturers who contract samick to make their bottom end
>> guitars, and slap the big name on the headstock...Washburn
>> I had heard that Washburn was made by a different Korean manufacturer. Several times, in fact. But I've not looked it up.
>Some Washburns are made by Samick, some are made by...some other
>place. Honshi? SOmething like that. Hoshino? I think it's the same place
>that makes (made?) Squiers ( Korean Squires, anyway), Cort, and a couple
>other import "little brother" brands.
VERY INTERESTING. Hoshino is Ibanez. My cheapie Ibanez is made in
Indonesia. Sammick has a new LARGE facility there. My Rogue fat strat
says made by Squier on it. Made in Indoneisa. Hmmmmmm. I'm thinking a
larger entity sold off Sammicks lower/older properties and are going
to concentrate on higher quality/end stuff. Would be a GOOD move.
Leave Gibson to make cheap stuff, let em cut out lots of cheap Gib
clones or raise prices AND let em tighten up Epi quality some.
>I tend to have these facts in my brain, all rattling together and getting
>all tangled. So don't take anything I say as the final word. Can anyone
>confirm?
Well, my Hoshino/Ibanez link comes from having to deal with Hoshino to
get a neck prob with the Ibanez resolved. The new plant in Indonesia
info comes from the Sammick site (they also make pianos it seems). I
think it's like 1000 employee setup, looks LARGE bordering on huge.
They have plans it seems. You know, they like to make 100 yr plans,
not just ten year ones.
Dan in Quebec
checked out a new one the other day. It's just not the same guitar. As
soon as I put her in playing position, I felt the difference. It felt dry,
harsh, tinny....sounded dry, harsh and tinny too. Ok.....my Switchmaster
had time to mellow. But I bought it "used" in 63 and it never changed a bit
for the 20 years I kept it. I only paid 250.00 for it (in original case)
and was not very careful with it. Still, it stayed in impeccable condition
all those years getting hauled around the country. The case took the
punishment. Now the new Switchmaster costs over 5,000.00 Canadian plus 15%
sales tax. If I had to buy a new guitar today, I would buy a guitar made by
a small manufacturer Ex. Godin here in Quebec. Or buy a vintage guitar that
is in perfect condition.
Old Geezer in Quebec
"Long Timer" <tu...@songsmith.com> wrote in message
news:9dhj2n$lk7$1...@news.datasync.com...
Dan Stanley
"Dougtrueblood" <dougtr...@cs.com> wrote in message
news:20010511190527...@nso-mf.news.cs.com...
Isn't Cort just a brand name for Hoshino? ( or whatever it is...damn this
tiny brain!).
Twang
Your original post didn't show up for me yet, so I'm replying to what I got
from another reply to you..
> > Gibson. I've had some nice ones. There was a time that the name really
> meant
> > something with regard to genuine quality, on the market, and in the
actual
> > hands of players (I've had a few in my hands, and was glad to have
them).
I think they still are very good guitars.
> The
> > recent offerings are overpriced and very hit and miss, quality-wise.
I've read too much of that to disagree.
> Gibson
> > has been getting by on the Name with regard to honest apples to apples,
> > oranges to oranges comparisons.
I don't know if they've been coasting, really, their custom shop is pretty
busy, and they don't lack for models..it's just a question of why they are
so expensive, with such hit and miss quality control.
The nicer Samicks are very nice, with
> higher
> > overall quality control, the equal of a nice Gibson, and for Much Much
> less
> > money.
I'd have to drive a ways to see a Samick, that's my only problem with them.
>I looked at an Epiphone Joe Pass model for a grand yesterday. The
> > Samick Big Apple blows it away (Samick saving its Best for itself and
its
> own
> > Name), and is nicer looking, for 500, WITH a hardshell case. I'll be
> scoring a
> > Samick set-neck Les Paul knockoff in bird's eye maple for 350 bucks,
that
> > makes the thousand dollar epi in the shop yesterday look like a poor
> cousin,
Epi doesn't make any thousand dollar les paul models.
the birdseye maple epi pauls were under five hundred.
> > and would set someone back an easy 2 grand to cop an equal in Gibson. Do
> you
> > Really Think Gibson will allow such to continue for too much longer?
I feel that if Gibson really owns the Samick name, and not just a facility,
they'll decide what to do based at least partly on what the market will
bear.
It's hard for me to believe they'd just dump the Samick line, or ruin it
somehow.
If they do, I'd excpect them to realize the Epi line sells as well as it
does because it offers alternative to the gibson main line, and we'd see
some improvements there, with little or no price increase.
Look
> at
> > the name brand tennis shoes made for a relative pittance overseas, yet
going
> > for top dollar in the states. I have always enjoyed your posts, Twang.
thanks.
I
> would
> > think that the days of a 350 guitar that matches a Gibson of 2 >>grand
or more,coming from Gibson itself, now that is owns >>Samick, will soon
enough be over.
I have to say, that I've not seen a Samick.. unless it was something used
and I must have overlooked it, as there are no samick dealers around me.
I don't mean to be rude, but I'm sure that 350 Samick is not as good as it's
gibson counterpart.
If Samick has the reputation you give it, I could see Gibson definately
keeping the Samick line, because there is no doubt they are much less
expensive to produce, and people who want gibson, buy gibson, their
reputation in newsgroups may be suffering, but I think in the rest of the
world they're still doing good business.
I don't know, ...it's interesting, for sure. I imagine any changes will be
slow in coming.. so we can all stay tuned.
take it easy.
Dan Stanley
> >Actually, given the few things I've heard about Gibson's precarious
> >position, I wouldn't be surprised to find that, in actuality, Samick
bought
> >Gibson!
> Yeah, personally i believe this to be the case. Gibson was headed to
> bankruptcy in the early 70s. Had they not begged Les Paul back
I don't know what you mean by this, still. I don't know of any time when
Gibson "begged Les Paul back.", although I remember reading that in the
early-mid eighties he was in takes with Kramer or something. Gibson appeased
him by offering Epi LPs. Big bucks in that, for Gibson AND Les.
In the early '70s Gibson was owned by Norlin, a big conglomerate...I think
their biggest focus was on brewing beer in South America or something.
In the early '80s, Gibson was sold to Henry J. ( I can't spell his name, so
I won't even try) and a couple other guys. They got it for a great price,
and really started turning things around.
I *think* Henry J. is the only one left, and by all accounts, he is nuts,
and has been for about the last decade. Dark times for Gibson, indeed.
>...was the
> new Gibson also a conglomerate corporation? Or just one company?
As far as I know, just one company. But over the years, Henry's bought lots
of other MI companies ( National/Dobro, Stienberger, Trace Elliot, a host of
others), and none of them have done well since the purchase.
Dan
Dan Stanley
> On Fri, 11 May 2001 20:53:24 GMT, "Dan Stanley" <vze2...@verizon.net>
> wrote:
>
> >"Twang" <tw...@dtgnet.com> wrote in message
> >news:P7XK6.268$5J2....@newsfeed.slurp.net...
> >>
> >> HPIMan <hpi...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
> >> news:3AFB88EB...@hotmail.com...
> >> > Intreesting... can you post a web site we can read up on? Samick is
> >> >probably the biggest guitar manufacturer in the world (I'm guessing
> >> >here). Truth is most of the Korean made, entry level giutars come
from
> >> >the samick plant. Here are a few
> >> > big name manufacturers who contract samick to make their bottom end
> >> guitars, and slap the big name on the headstock...Washburn
>
> >> I had heard that Washburn was made by a different Korean manufacturer.
Several times, in fact. But I've not looked it up.
>
> >Some Washburns are made by Samick, some are made by...some other
> >place. Honshi? SOmething like that. Hoshino? I think it's the same place
> >that makes (made?) Squiers ( Korean Squires, anyway), Cort, and a couple
> >other import "little brother" brands.
>
> VERY INTERESTING. Hoshino is Ibanez.
Like I said, chances are good that I have the name wrong. The name "Hoshino"
just rose to the top of my bubbling memory. I could be thinking of an
entirely different m'fr'r.
Dan Stanley
> >Gibson started their slide around the same time as Fender, late 60's into
> >the seventies, but had reintroduced the LP ( discontinued as we know it
in
> >'60, although the first "SG"s were called "Les Pauls") by '68 or so.
> don't assume cuz i mentiond two events that i inferred they both
> happened at the same TIME.
Ah. My mistake. Sorry.
Long Timer
betting table.... "Doctor Dollar is in the house! And he's brought along his
nurse, Lady Luck!" Know a bit about psychology, and in particular, the
psychology of Money, and justification concerning expenditures thereof. If I
were to bet, I'd bet you've bought an Epiphone made in Korea. If so, if the
nicer Samicks would have been available to you, you could have picked up more
guitar for less money. You still can before Gibson screws that up for the
guitar consumer.
With that, I've said my peace about the Gibson buyout of Samick, and the
currently available nicer Samicks, which for all is:
Get 'em while the gettin' is good.
Twang wrote in message <7MbL6.285$PB3....@newsfeed.slurp.net>...
That's what the shop was asking.
>the birdseye maple epi pauls were under five hundred.
More comparable to the Gibson model.
GAX70
it's pretty funny that Gibsons major competition now will be
themselves,haha. Gotta love this new capitalism.
>If they do, I'd excpect them to realize the Epi line sells as well as it
>does because it offers alternative to the gibson main line, and we'd see
>some improvements there, with little or no price increase.
more snippage
>If Samick has the reputation you give it, I could see Gibson definately
>keeping the Samick line, because there is no doubt they are much less
>expensive to produce, and people who want gibson, buy gibson, their
>reputation in newsgroups may be suffering, but I think in the rest of the
>world they're still doing good business.
Yeah, they'll just repaint Gibson over the Sammick name on the
headstock, BINGO. hehe
GAX70
wrote:
>
>> >Actually, given the few things I've heard about Gibson's precarious
>> >position, I wouldn't be surprised to find that, in actuality, Samick
>bought
>> >Gibson!
>
>> Yeah, personally i believe this to be the case. Gibson was headed to
>> bankruptcy in the early 70s. Had they not begged Les Paul back
>
>I don't know what you mean by this, still. I don't know of any time when
>Gibson "begged Les Paul back.", although I remember reading that in the
>early-mid eighties he was in takes with Kramer or something. Gibson appeased him by offering Epi LPs. Big bucks in that, for Gibson AND Les.
I meant as a rule Gibson ain't got it's finger on the pulse of
guitarists. They told Les to take a walk when he first went to see
them around 49. Later when the Tele came out (nitpickers insert 9
months of Broadcaster sales here) they called Les and "that
broomstick" back. Remember up until this time archtop hollowbodies
were KING. Gibson made it's money from the start with acoustics and
seems to have stuck in this mindset, tho they finally got it with the
SG, Firebird and even the Explorer (but only the SG really HIT). Seems
to be a historical "blinders on" approach they have is all i was
saying.
>In the early '70s Gibson was owned by Norlin, a big conglomerate...I think
>their biggest focus was on brewing beer in South America or something.
>
>In the early '80s, Gibson was sold to Henry J. ( I can't spell his name, so
>I won't even try) and a couple other guys. They got it for a great price,
>and really started turning things around.
Would the great price have to do with the company bein on it's way to
bankruptcy? As in played OUT. Nothing new, etc. I mean Leo continued
to try and top his previous model until his death. I think having
someone TRULY committed to guitar improvement and design in charge is
KEY.
AUDIOARC
>something with regard to genuine quality, on the market, and in the actual
>hands of players (I've had a few in my hands, and was glad to have them). The
>recent offerings are overpriced and very hit and miss, quality-wise. Gibson
>has been getting by on the Name with regard to honest apples to apples,
>oranges to oranges comparisons. The nicer Samicks are very nice, with higher
Yeah but the name sounds like junk
kinda like driving a DAEWOO
T-Bug
Parker
"AUDIOARC" <audi...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:20010512172739...@ng-df1.aol.com...
Kate Ebneter
Maybe. Hoshino is Ibanez.
Kate Ebneter
Collector of Noise Toys
g-mane
bucks on ebay? ;-)
-g
In article <z%hL6.68775$2U.30...@news2.rdc2.tx.home.com>, "T-Bug"
<mister...@home.com> wrote:
--
do the usual to reply
guitar634
the world making over a million guitars this year alone.
"Mr. J" <gitf...@fiberia.com> wrote in message
news:9dfh73$468$1...@news.datasync.com...
> Gibson has bought Samick. Heard it first from a Samick dealer... hadn't
been
> finalized. Heard from a Gibson today dealer that the deal is now done. He
> sells Gibson, yet he is sick about it.
> without reservation, that the current Samick Pauls I've looked at beat
out, in
> overall quality control, their Gibson inspirations, and for a lot less
money.
> Which is exactly why Gibson has bought Samick.
> I've got a couple of Samicks I have to buy before they cost a lot more,
with
> Gibson on the headstock...
>
> Have at it.
>
Anthony
Mr. J wrote in message <9dfhlj$492$1...@news.datasync.com>...
:Post Script:
:I looked at new Gibson Les Pauls, a bunch, this time last year, out in
Vegas,
:at Mars music. Driving to the deep south, I stopped at a shop in
Alexandria,
:Louisiana that was a Samick dealer. The Les Paul Samick copies were better
:than the so-called real thing. Ran into a Samick paul recently, locally.
Same
:high quality.
:
:Mr. J wrote in message <9dfh73$468$1...@news.datasync.com>...
:>Gibson has bought Samick. Heard it first from a Samick dealer... hadn't
been
:>finalized. Heard from a Gibson dealer, today, that the deal is now done.
:
Jamal Hamidi
"guitar634" <guit...@worldnet.att.net> wrote in message
news:tlpL6.19686$t12.1...@bgtnsc05-news.ops.worldnet.att.net...
> Samick may have bought Gibson because Samick is the largest guitar co. in
> the world making over a million guitars this year alone.
This is saying absolutely nuttin'. Samick could make ten million guitars a
year, but this doesn't tell us anything about the value of the company or
its financial position. Nor does it say anything about Gibson's investment
budget.
Gibson has probably bought Samick to ensure supply of guitars to Epiphone at
a favourable cost and quality. I hope that the Samick brand is still
maintained - some of the top-end Samicks were great guitars, especially the
archtops.
Jamal Hamidi
> it's pretty funny that Gibsons major competition now will be
> themselves,haha. Gotta love this new capitalism.
Competition? I'm sure Gibson will sort their portfolio out such that there
is as little competition as possible.
Frank Hudson
says...
> Gibson has bought Samick. Heard it first from a Samick dealer... hadn't been
> sells Gibson, yet he is sick about it.
Quite a thread of responses, but I don't seen any cites that confirm
that this is true. Come on guys, how many of us have heard something
that wasn't true from a dealer?
Samick and Gibson are a big part of the guitar market, you'd think
there'd be some news coverage somewhere if this is a done deal, not just
rumors.
-Frank Hudson
remove the "x" when replying
Web page with sound samples and the "So You Want to Buy A Guitar FAQ":
http://www.users.uswest.net/~fhudson/
Curt Simon
>
>Gibson has probably bought Samick to ensure supply of guitars to Epiphone
at
>a favourable cost and quality. I hope that the Samick brand is still
>maintained - some of the top-end Samicks were great guitars, especially the
>archtops.
Finally, an attempted rational explanation for the deal!
(Assuming that the rumours are true, which is not obvious.)
Samick may be trying to capture the rents from better-
than-expected sales of Epiphones. The problem with
this explanation is that Samick can STILL capture the rents
by demanding that Gibson pay a higher price for
the firm.
Gibson unquestionably gains market power from the buyout.
Every Washburn (or whatever) sold would reduce
Ephiphone's (or even Gibson's) sales. This effectively raises
the marginal cost of production, causing the optimal
rate of output to decline, and driving up price.
There are potentially overhead and marketing costs
savings as a result of the buyout. Also, as a larger
buyer, Gibson would be in a better position to demand
lower prices from materials suppliers. The net effect
on the consumer does not appear to be clear cut.
Curt Simon
Aimish Wallace
Gibson (through Samick) will now be manufacturing instruments for other
companies such as Washburn, Fender, etc, that Samick has been building for
years. THAT strikes me as a shrewd move. Basically Gibson is in control of a
large portion of the world's instrument production. Scary!
GAX70
wrote:
> What no one here has mentioned, that I find particularly interesting is that
>Gibson (through Samick) will now be manufacturing instruments for other
>companies such as Washburn, Fender, etc, that Samick has been building for
>years. THAT strikes me as a shrewd move. Basically Gibson is in control of a
>large portion of the world's instrument production. Scary!
Bill Gates Syndrome. A popular way of doing business around the turn
of the last century. Caused laws on Monopolies to be written, seems to
me we are going backwards here. Next price fixing will be OK again.
Jamal Hamidi
"Curt Simon" <kc...@mindspring.com> wrote in message
news:9dmf0j$kg6$1...@slb2.atl.mindspring.net...
> The problem with
> this explanation is that Samick can STILL capture the rents
> by demanding that Gibson pay a higher price for
> the firm.
Perhaps, but this could be offset by the poor performance of Samick's other
ventures. They don't just make Epiphones. Nor do they just make guitars.
Don't quote me on this, but I wouldn't be surprised if Samick make guitars
for GMI's Kramer brand as well as Epiphone.
But you are right in saying that the news is, as yet, unsubstantiated.
> The net effect
> on the consumer does not appear to be clear cut.
It would not be surprising if the effect on the consumer is negligible.
Dougtrueblood
<vze2...@verizon.net> writes:
>
>Isn't Cort just a brand name for Hoshino? ( or whatever it is...damn this
>tiny brain!).
>
>
>
According to a recent Vintage Guitar article Cort is a Korean company
that also has manufacturing plants in Indonesia and China, where they make
guitars under the Cort name as well as guitars for other brands under
contract. The current Fender and Dearmond guitars from Indonesia and
China come from Cort......
Doug
Dan Stanley
Thanks.
Dan
Dougtrueblood
<fhu...@xuswest.net> writes:
>Quite a thread of responses, but I don't seen any cites that confirm
>that this is true. Come on guys, how many of us have heard something
>that wasn't true from a dealer?
>
>Samick and Gibson are a big part of the guitar market, you'd think
>there'd be some news coverage somewhere if this is a done deal, not just
>rumors.
>
>-Frank Hudson
Gee Frank why let the truth get in the way of a good story :^).
Doug
Dougtrueblood
"guitar634" <guit...@worldnet.att.net> writes:
>Samick may have bought Gibson because Samick is the largest guitar co. in
>the world making over a million guitars this year alone.
Just cause they are the self proclaimed "largest guitar company in the world"
doesn't mean they are the most profitable or even that they make a profit at
all. Last I heard anything about Samick was that they had financial problems
because of the downturn in the Korean economy...
Doug
Daniel C
that
> Gibson (through Samick) will now be manufacturing instruments for other
> companies such as Washburn, Fender, etc, that Samick has been building
for
> years. THAT strikes me as a shrewd move. Basically Gibson is in control of
a
> large portion of the world's instrument production. Scary!
What you then have to consider is that maybe those companies like Wasburn
who are having Samick making their guitars may switch to Cort instead.
Wasburn and the like may not feel so comfortable having a name such as
Gibson making their guitars. Samick would be less of a threat because they
are a less well known firm and a lot less reputable.
Cort and Hoshino-thingy-whatsitsname may benefit from this (alleged) take
over.
Daniel.
JuJu Voodoo
entities,
that this deal has been done, and that the parties involved are keeping
quiet
about it, for now. Neither Gibson or Samick have returned email on this
subject to me.
I just ordered a Samick Les Paul, set neck, in bubinga, with vintage style
tuners, set-up to get action no higher than 3 32s off the fretboard (not
fret)
at 12th fret on the high e with the rest balanced to par, and shipping...
for
$335.00. I've seen this particular model in person, and consider it better
than the epis I looked at and equal to a nice Gibson... and definitely
better
than some of the not-so-nice Gibsons I looked at, with the sharp fret edges
and baaaad day at the factory quality control problems.
I have my lines into good sources at good prices, and will pick up what I
want
while the models are still at the retailers I've tracked down. I don't trust
Gibson to ensure quality and price at current levels with regard to the top
end Samick house brand offerings.
I believe the rumor to be true; according to the info these dealers have, it
is. In any case, I've been putting off picking up some of these upper-end
Samicks. Good excuse to get some cheap thrills.
------------------------------------------------------------
Get your FREE web-based e-mail and newsgroup access at:
http://MailAndNews.com
Create a new mailbox, or access your existing IMAP4 or
POP3 mailbox from anywhere with just a web browser.
------------------------------------------------------------
Dundee The Pod
"Mr. J" <gitf...@fiberia.com> wrote in message
news:9dfh73$468$1...@news.datasync.com...
> Gibson has bought Samick. Heard it first from a Samick dealer... hadn't
been
> finalized. Heard from a Gibson today dealer that the deal is now done. He
> sells Gibson, yet he is sick about it.