Question about intonation
Lu R
playing notes around the 4th to 6th frets shows them to be sharp!! The
action is great btw..if I alter the bridge string saddles this will upset
the 12th fret intonaton so what next? Thanks in advance.
Luke
TPS
Take a good look at your frets. If they're really worn down, the
distance from the spot where the string rests gets a bit closer to the
bridge, resulting in a slightly sharper note.
But if your frets are worn down, find a good luthier to do a level and
recrown.
*** Not something to do yourself unless you're a really good
craftsman and have a good, accurate straightedge. ***
Of course, you also have to pay attention to your playing style. I
tend to squeeze down too hard, pulling the notes a bit sharp.
Tony Done
"Lu R" <wh...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:4afbbd97$0$5422$afc3...@news.optusnet.com.au...
Decide where you want to optimise intonation. Depending on your style, you
might want to get the octaves right at the 5th and 17th frets, or maybe the
5th interval between the 5th and 12th frets. The point is that you can only
get the intonation exactly right for one interval on each string, you have
to decide which you want.
--
Tony D
http://www.soundclick.com/bands/default.cfm?bandID=784456
http://www.flickr.com/photos/done_family/
White Spirit
> "Lu R" <wh...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
> news:4afbbd97$0$5422$afc3...@news.optusnet.com.au...
>> My SG gibson plays true at open and 12th fretted positions but I see
>> that playing notes around the 4th to 6th frets shows them to be
>> sharp!! The action is great btw..if I alter the bridge string saddles
>> this will upset the 12th fret intonaton so what next? Thanks in advance.
>> Luke
> Decide where you want to optimise intonation. Depending on your style,
> you might want to get the octaves right at the 5th and 17th frets, or
> maybe the 5th interval between the 5th and 12th frets. The point is that
> you can only get the intonation exactly right for one interval on each
> string, you have to decide which you want.
All of my guitars intonate very precisely across the entire range of the
fretboard. Am I just lucky?
jtees4
Welcome to the world of compromise in guitar set up. That is why...in
the end...I use my ears.
****
http://www.soundclick.com/bands/default.cfm?bandID=789610
Phil Allison
"White Spirit is a Retarded Pommy Poofta "
> All of my guitars intonate very precisely across the entire range of the
> fretboard. Am I just lucky?
** ROTFL !!
The TROLLING pommy faggot is completely fucking TONE DEAF !!
Wot a HOOT !!!
As well as TOTALLY BRAIN DEAD !!!!!
.... Phil
White Spirit
> ** ROTFL !!
> The TROLLING pommy faggot is completely fucking TONE DEAF !!
> Wot a HOOT !!!
> As well as TOTALLY BRAIN DEAD !!!!!
*plonk*
ed s
Welcome to the world of GOOD ears. Some people can't hear it some can.
This was driving me crazy. It was like fingernails on a chalk board to
me.
I have been down this road:
Feiten Offsets and shelf nut on my Stratocaster.
http://www.sectr5.com/yahoo_site_admin/assets/images/StratIntonation.300175901_large.jpg
Essentually the nut is move slightly closer to the first fret. You
tune a few string slightly flat open and slight sharp at 12th. Its
streatch tuning similar to a piano. Works to a degree - but some chord
still sound sour.
My Tele as a comparision is Stock -
http://www.sectr5.com/yahoo_site_admin/assets/images/CIMG1999.300183634_large.JPG
Intonated perfect open and 12th - some cords sound dreadfull. If you
make and open C perfect an F or D will be off.
My LesPaul just installed Earvana compensated nut.
http://www.sectr5.com/yahoo_site_admin/assets/images/LesPaulIntonation.300180834_large.jpg
This is the SHIT - damn near perfect everywhere. I use a strobostomp
so its not just BS.
I need this on all my guitars. It allows compensation from both ends
of the string. Why in any way would anyone think you only need to
correct it at the bridge ?
Check the chart on the bottom of this page http://www.earvana.com/technology.htm
Forget the typo where it says C= 440 obviously its A=440.
I can tell you it sound so sweet you will love it. Chords ring clean
and true and sustain forever as there is no destructive interfearance
with the harmonics. If somewhere on your board a note is sharp your
screw'd, but if its flat at least you can bend it up slightly. I
have measured several guitars, and the first few fret are alway sharp
( even though the owners say oh man mines perfect ). I have zero
affiliation with them, I just I love it and pass the word on. ed s.
Phil Allison
"White Spirit is a Retarded Pommy Poofta "
> All of my guitars intonate very precisely across the entire range of the
> fretboard. Am I just lucky?
>
>> ** ROTFL !!
>
>> The TROLLING pommy faggot is completely fucking TONE DEAF !!
>
>> Wot a HOOT !!!
>
>> As well as TOTALLY BRAIN DEAD !!!!!
>
> *plonk*
** Took this FUCKING TENTH WITTED POMMY IMBECILE
a damn long time and a massive number of sharp boots up his butt to work
out what to do.
He better be serious.
..... Phil
White Spirit
> Welcome to the world of GOOD ears. Some people can't hear it some can.
> This was driving me crazy. It was like fingernails on a chalk board to
> me.
I check all my guitars periodically by ear as well as with an electronic
tuner and the differences in intonation up and down the fretboard are
slight enough to be negligible with new strings. I've played some
guitars that I haven't been able to intonate correctly and have assumed
that the frets aren't installed in the correct position.
Lu R
"ed s" <esha...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:55fba9fa-a32d-422d...@c3g2000yqd.googlegroups.com...
Hi ed, Pardon my ignorance but when fretting a note or chord how does the
nut end of the neck affect the pitch played? I can understand open strings
benefitting from this deal..also my Epi LP seems to have perfect intonation
all over the neck without this mod. Cheers, Luke.
ed s
> "ed s" <esham...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
>
> news:55fba9fa-a32d-422d...@c3g2000yqd.googlegroups.com...
> On Nov 12, 1:47 am, "Lu R" <wh...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>
> > My SG gibson plays true at open and 12th fretted positions but I see that
> > playing notes around the 4th to 6th frets shows them to be sharp!! The
> > action is great btw..if I alter the bridge string saddles this will upset
> > the 12th fret intonaton so what next? Thanks in advance.
> > Luke
>
> Welcome to the world of GOOD ears. Some people can't hear it some can.
> This was driving me crazy. It was like fingernails on a chalk board to
> me.
> I have been down this road:
>
> Essentually the nut is move slightly closer to the first fret. You
> tune a few string slightly flat open and slight sharp at 12th. Its
> streatch tuning similar to a piano. Works to a degree - but some chord
> still sound sour.
>
> Intonated perfect open and 12th - some cords sound dreadfull. If you
> make and open C perfect an F or D will be off.
>
> This is the SHIT - damn near perfect everywhere. I use a strobostomp
> so its not just BS.
> I need this on all my guitars. It allows compensation from both ends
> of the string. Why in any way would anyone think you only need to
> correct it at the bridge ?
>
> Forget the typo where it says C= 440 obviously its A=440.
> I can tell you it sound so sweet you will love it. Chords ring clean
> and true and sustain forever as there is no destructive interfearance
> with the harmonics. If somewhere on your board a note is sharp your
> screw'd, but if its flat at least you can bend it up slightly. I
> have measured several guitars, and the first few fret are alway sharp
> ( even though the owners say oh man mines perfect ). I have zero
> affiliation with them, I just I love it and pass the word on. ed s.
>
> Hi ed, Pardon my ignorance but when fretting a note or chord how does the
> nut end of the neck affect the pitch played? I can understand open strings
> benefitting from this deal..also my Epi LP seems to have perfect intonation
> all over the neck without this mod. Cheers, Luke.
Because for example - If you tune your G string Sharp open and then
pefect intonation at the 12th - don't you think it will be sharp as
you start open and still be sharp part way as you head toward the
bridge and then get closer as you get to the 12th ? The reason
intonation at the bridge is not straight across the bridge is all
stings do not have the same exact tension and scale length. Its a
compromised for all 6 strings at one time vs where the frets are
placed ( this just give you another chance at the nut) . And I
seriously douby the Epi is perfect - non are, even my LP after earvana
is not perfect but its damn close. . What kind of tuner do you
have ? and do a test on each string. Now you may not hear it , thats
one thing, your ear may be trained to ignore it. ( As I stated many a
player says ohh mines perfect - I challeng you/them to do it with a
good tuner ). ps - I hear it. ed s.
ed s
>
> - Show quoted text -
Ahh yes new strings required also - and I don't hear it on a single
note, its in referece to another note at the same time as in a chord. e
Rick N. Backer
news:7m2fvfF...@mid.individual.net...
Lu R
Thanks to you all for your replies guys. Its a Gibson so I dont expect
incorrectly set frets to be the issue ..may just be the strings need
replacing..they have been played hard lately..Cheers, Luke.
Jim
>
> My LesPaul just installed Earvana compensated nut.
> http://www.sectr5.com/yahoo_site_admin/assets/images/LesPaulIntonation.300180834_large.jpg
> This is the SHIT - damn near perfect everywhere. I use a strobostomp
> so its not just BS.
> I need this on all my guitars. It allows compensation from both ends
> of the string. Why in any way would anyone think you only need to
> correct it at the bridge ?
Quite talking about that nut, dang it! ;^)
I'm gonna end up with a bunch of projects on my hands!
There are a couple of things that I noodle around with that involve some
scales were I can really hear some odd dissonance when played almost
like fingerpicking a chords speed. ESPECIALLY with distortion. You get
some odd warbles that really shouldn't be there, and I can't imagine
that the notes are more than a couple of cents off. I'm wondering if
the earvana would solve it.
Tony Done
"White Spirit" <wsp...@homechoice.co.uk> wrote in message
news:hdgt3t$si6$3...@news.eternal-september.org...
I phrased my answer badly, blame it on a couple of cans of beer after work.
A better response is that you can only *expect* each string to intonate
exactly for one interval. I'm sure a lot of guitars do better than that
expectation - it will depend on string gauges and age, fret wear, your touch
etc - but it is the premise I would use for setting intonation. Another
thing, in relation to the OP's question is that open strings might produce
off results compared with the rest of the fretboard due to height of the nut
slots.
The way fretboards are made these days, the last thing I would expect is
incorrectly located frets.
Tony D
nm...@wt.net
I bet it's the G string that shows up the most. A very common
problem with most Gibsons, and some other brands too.
My cure is to tune the G string just a wee bit flat for the best
overall chord mojo.
But I'm much more worried about chord sound than I am single
note sound. With a lot of Gibsons, if you don't tune the G slightly
flat, the open D chord will sound like roasted caca. :(
With mine, I tune all the strings on the money, except for the G,
which I drop just a hair.
I don't know if this is the problem you are seeing, but it's a
common one for Gibsons.
ed s
> ed s wrote:
>
> > My LesPaul just installed Earvana compensated nut.
> > This is the SHIT - damn near perfect everywhere. I use a strobostomp
> > so its not just BS.
> > I need this on all my guitars. It allows compensation from both ends
> > of the string. Why in any way would anyone think you only need to
> > correct it at the bridge ?
>
> Quite talking about that nut, dang it! ;^)
>
> I'm gonna end up with a bunch of projects on my hands!
>
> There are a couple of things that I noodle around with that involve some
> scales were I can really hear some odd dissonance when played almost
> like fingerpicking a chords speed. ESPECIALLY with distortion. You get
> some odd warbles that really shouldn't be there, and I can't imagine
> that the notes are more than a couple of cents off. I'm wondering if
> the earvana would solve it.
YES! - sorry ed
RichL
I'm with Tony D. on this one.
Don't use open strings to set intonation.
Even if the frets are set perfectly position-wise and haven't worn,
slight imperfections in nut position and/or slot depth can mess you up.
Intonate using fretted octaves (I use 3rd and 15th frets usually).
Then tune to fretted notes also (NOT open strings).
The only thing that should be noticeably off will then be the open
strings; everything else should fall into place.
You might want to make a final tweak and play several open and barre
chords and adjust the tuning *slightly* to find the best compromise.
What Ed says about the Feiten system is relevant here too. It's
supposed to correct that open-string error so it's in line with
everything else.
ed s
Rich the Earvana blows the Feiten away.. check the pics I posted a few
back , you can see why.. ed
RichL
Yeah, I meant the Earvana....sorry!
Les Cargill
Man, I want one of those. Maybe more than one of those. Soon - very
soon.
--
Les Cargill
jh
yes, and the rest of the compensation works simply by adjusting the
finger pressure - use your ears. Good compromise that myriards of guitar
players have used with more or less good results
Jochen
George Orwell
> All of my guitars intonate very precisely across the entire range of the
> fretboard. Am I just lucky?
No, just like your BSD-Boots-In-30-Seconds brand idiocy you're
completely full of shit. Lying, or just too fucking stupid to know
whether the cheesy Korean knockoff you pretend you can play is
intonated properly or not.
Which one is it with you most of the time anyway? Just curious.
Il mittente di questo messaggio|The sender address of this
non corrisponde ad un utente |message is not related to a real
reale ma all'indirizzo fittizio|person but to a fake address of an
di un sistema anonimizzatore |anonymous system
Per maggiori informazioni |For more info
https://www.mixmaster.it
nm...@wt.net
> n...@wt.net schrieb:
I don't require any further compensation other than tweaking
the G string. I don't bother worrying about "finger pressure" other
than the methods used for vibrato which is generally a single
string thang..
It's all a compromise, and never will be perfect, so I don't spend
too much time worrying about it as long as I can get the chords
to sound the way I like.
My trem geetar also likes the G a bit flat, but not as much as
the Gibson. If I don't do that, the open D will be crap, along
with the barred chords like B, C, etc..
Every geetar will favor certain chords as far as tuning, and it
effects the purity. As an example, my trem geetar is probably
a tad more accurate all through the frets than my Gibson.
But.. Doesn't really mean much. My Gibson has "sweeter"
sounding open chords none the less even with it's G string
quirk.
BTW, nothing is wrong with my ears. I have perfect relative
pitch. :/
ed s
>
> - Show quoted text -
Quote - "BTW, nothing is wrong with my ears. I have perfect relative
pitch"
and happy to play em even if they sound sour - cause I like em that
way..
ha - ( so long as your happy I'm happy for you) - ed s.
nm...@wt.net
What sounds sour? Do you have examples of my clips where the
chords sound sour? Which ones? If you can't provide examples,
this amounts to no more than typical usenet spew.
With the rancid tone I often use, my tuning is quite critical, trust
me.
And yes I'm quite happy enough, so I guess you must be too. :/
Sheeesh.. Like I really give a rats ass how other people tune
their geetars..
You tune yours how you like, and I'll do the same.
Some people have near perfectly intonated geetars, and they still
sound like crap.. :/ What would be their excuse?
Les Cargill
Hang on - temperament is a complicated thing. I can pretty much
tune without a tuner, but for some reason, on different days,
I'll "hear" it differently. Using a tuner makes all that moot,
which is why I use one. But for some tunes, I just *don't*.
Leave it rough.
I have a sheet of offsets published for pedal steel, for "sweet"
tuning ( a compromise that's closer to just than to ET ) and
I haven't used it very much. It sounds really old fashioned,
and ET mixes "cleaner". but "sweet" is a lot closer to the old
"cry in your beer" pedal steel sound.
If just is called "sweet", then maybe ET is relatively "sour".
And sour can be good. It depends. I'm pretty sure that I
unconsciously shift intonation if I go from major to harmonic
minor within the same song playing slide. Maybe it's not a
right or wrong thing, but a "different colors" thing.
--
Les Cargill
nm...@wt.net
Absolutely. And I hear chords as colors. And fine changes
in tuning effect the shade/tint of the color.
I can tune with or without a tuner, but I use one as it's
faster, and it allows me to set it up to my preferred tuning
right out of the gate, being as I know exactly where to
set the G string on the tuner. With my ear, I have to putz
around a tad longer getting it all dialed in.
No matter how I tune, I rarely have obvious "sour" chords.
If I did, I would correct it, as I hate sour chords. :/
Now sometimes I will be slightly out of tune. But I don't blame it
on the geetar or the intonation. That's just me slacking on
the tuning process, or I'm dialing in new strings, etc... :(
Robert Bolton
>My SG gibson plays true at open and 12th fretted positions but I see that
>playing notes around the 4th to 6th frets shows them to be sharp!! The
>action is great btw..if I alter the bridge string saddles this will upset
>the 12th fret intonaton so what next? Thanks in advance.
>Luke
>
Newbie here, lurking in alt.guitar.
My wife bought me a Les Paul copy many years ago that was unplayable
due to fretting sharpness. If your problem was like mine, your nut
may be set too high, causing the strings to stretch too much when you
fret up around the nut end of the neck. Another issue could be frets
that are too high, causing you to stretch the string more than
necessary to touch the fingerboard. That might be more relevant to
your case if you don't have exceptional sharpness till you get to the
4th fret or so. It would sound OK when you press on the 12th fret
probably because the bridge was adjusted to compensate for the
sharpness using the 12th fret for a reference. The string length was
made proportionally longer below the 12th fret to compensate for the
sharpness between open and 12th fretted. It nut height was the primary
issue, the sharpness would be expected to grow gradually as you fret
up toward the nut, due to the string being stretched more to reach
the fingerboard as you near the nut (IIRC). If fret heights are the
issue, it might be non-uniform as you go up the neck.
A $100 neck job that included both lowering the nut and working the
frets a bit made mine playable. You'll never have perfect tune
between open and fretted, as others have noted, but you might consider
taking it to a reputable repair shop for an assessment if the
sharpness is creating bad sound. They should be able to tell you just
how far off the norm it is and what they would charge to improve it.
Not an expert here by any means, so I hope I'm not leading you astray.
Robert
jh
I bet you're doing it exactly the same way as i do - and as I - don't
worry about it. For me it works perfectly. No complaints from others, my
fingers and my ears do the job - unconciously.
Perhaps I chose the wrong words..
Jochen
Les Cargill
I really do. You can't help it. This inspires me to
think the Earvana nut might be the bee's knees.
It also might airbrush all the fun out....
> If I did, I would correct it, as I hate sour chords. :/
Tell that to Neil Young... ( who really
wasn't that out of tune, and I like to think
he kinda knew what he was doing with it).
Fifteen strobe tuners under the drum riser, boyee...
> Now sometimes I will be slightly out of tune. But I don't blame it
> on the geetar or the intonation. That's just me slacking on
> the tuning process, or I'm dialing in new strings, etc... :(
>
>
Right! Although new strings aren't much excuse, once you
learn to stretch them.
--
Les Cargill
Les Cargill
> Not an expert here by any means, so I hope I'm not leading you astray.
> Robert
You hit the nail squarely on the head. Welcome to ag.
--
Les Cargill
ed s
>
> - Show quoted text -
You said so your self so i BELIEVED YOU =
qUOTE "But I'm much more worried about chord sound than I am single
note sound. With a lot of Gibsons, if you don't tune the G slightly
flat, the open D chord will sound like roasted caca. :( "
iF ROASTED CACA MAKE YOU HAPPY iM HAPPY FOR u. Ed
nm...@wt.net
>
> You said so your self so i BELIEVED YOU =
>
> qUOTE "But I'm much more worried about chord sound than I am single
> note sound. With a lot of Gibsons, if you don't tune the G slightly
> flat, the open D chord will sound like roasted caca. :( "
>
> iF ROASTED CACA MAKE YOU HAPPY iM HAPPY FOR u. Ed
Weird.. I explained how to avoid that effect by slightly flatting the
G,
but it seems to have blown by you like a hurricane. :/
I have to wonder how all the Gibson users ever managed to get
by in the 60's, 70's, etc without all the fancy tuning techniques..
I mean, being as they all sound like caca and all, according to
your theory. :/
I give up. The only reason I mentioned it in the first place is
because that simple tweak will cure most Gibsons of chord
crapitus without going to extreme measures, and the open
chords will sound pretty sweet as a bonus.
I never even commented on your method at all. Why?
Because I could give a flying fornification how you tune.
If you a
nm...@wt.net
> If you are happy with your method, I'll sa
nm...@wt.net
Shiite... try this again.. :/
If you are happy with your method, I'll say I'm happy for you.
But I'd really be lying, as in REALITY, I could care less. :/
nm...@wt.net
> > No matter how I tune, I rarely have obvious "sour" chords.
>
> I really do. You can't help it. This inspires me to
> think the Earvana nut might be the bee's knees.
Dunno. I guess it would depend on how one defines
sour. When I say sour chord, I mean one that sounds
bad to the ear. There might be some on the upper frets
that are not totally perfect, but usually they are not bad
enough to stick out as a "bad to the ear" sour chord in
the course of normal playing.
>
> It also might airbrush all the fun out....
>
> > If I did, I would correct it, as I hate sour chords. :/
>
> Tell that to Neil Young... ( who really
> wasn't that out of tune, and I like to think
> he kinda knew what he was doing with it).
I wouldn't describe his chords as sour. They don't
sound bad to the ear. His chords are often tweaked
to sound heavy and a bit angry, rather than sour.. :/
>
> Fifteen strobe tuners under the drum riser, boyee...
Dang.. He must have 15 eyeballs to keep track of
them all.. :/
>
> > Now sometimes I will be slightly out of tune. But I don't blame it
> > on the geetar or the intonation. That's just me slacking on
> > the tuning process, or I'm dialing in new strings, etc... :(
>
> Right! Although new strings aren't much excuse, once you
> learn to stretch them.
Yea, but even with pre-stretching it'll take a little playing
for them to really settle down to the point they stay put for good.
Once my Gibson is really stable I can often go for days without
retuning as long as the temp doesn't change, and make the
whole mess go flat or sharp.
ed s
And then a chord with an open G is Caca - on most recordings they
pick the sweetspot (or desired effect ala N.Y. ) for the song and tune
accordingly. e