Epiphone Sheraton II vs. ES-335
Zac Reaney-Barker
between Epiphone's Sheraton and ES-335.. They look a heck of a lot
alike, but I've noticed somewhat of a difference in tone (maybe it was
just the models I was demoing).. Other than headstock and metal plating
on the hardware, what's the difference?
Thanks.
-Zac
brotone
The pickups, the tuners, the wiring harness (pots, switch, jack, and
wires), the quality of the wood, and the quality of the workmanship are
all better on the 335. The 335 is made in America with American made parts
and subject to American Gibson quality control. The Epiphone is
mass-produced in Korea of cheaper parts, then inspected and set up at the
Gibson plant in Nashville. This is not to say that you won't find a good
Epiphone - you might. Your chances are much better, though, w/ a real
Gibson. A good compromise is to find a nice playing, nice sounding
(acoustically) Epiphone, then put some reissue Gibson PAF pickups and a
Gibson wiring harness in it and upgrade the tuners. Then the differences
in the sound between the Epi and the 335 will be a lot less severe.
Patrick F. Coleman
>I was just wondering if anyone could explain to me the differences
>between Epiphone's Sheraton and ES-335.. They look a heck of a lot
>alike, but I've noticed somewhat of a difference in tone (maybe it was
>just the models I was demoing).. Other than headstock and metal plating
>on the hardware, what's the difference?
>Thanks.
>-Zac
Materials and dimensions are the same.
No es335 has the multi ply binding, bound f holes, vine headstock
inlay, gold hardware (four years on mine and no unusual wear at all),
or the triangle in block abalone and mother of pearl fingerboard
inlays.
No Epiphone sheraton costs over two grand.
Craftsmanship on the sheraton is first rate, seams are tight, no extra
glue inside, no dirt near the binding, no filler around the inlays.
Fretwork is excellent if not perfect on both guitars.
Sheraton as two mahogany stripes down the length of the neck.
Tonal differences come mainly from the pickups, the sheraton will take
many aftermarket pickups as well as other hardware that's available.
For the price of one es335 you can have two sheratons whose tone and
playability are indistinguishable from the gibson, assuming that's the
sound you want and you choose gibson pickups to slap in it.
Both have lifetime warranties, the epi is sold with the hardshell
case,don't know about the gibson.
the epiphones sunburst finish is warmer, less yellowy looking and
vastly prettier than the gibson to most people.
The natural finish has a lot of grain and contrast and looks great
with the gold hardware.
Other finishes are black and white, which I haven't seen.
sound differences are not severe.
The epi wiring harness is nice. shielded, good wire, and cloth wrap.
The pots don't have much sensitivity to them, but they work fine and
aren't cheap.
The hardware is probably not quite as high in quality, but I have no
real complaints except for the plastic nut. Don't know that gibson
uses bone, either.
A stock sheraton II could be taken onstage anytime, anywhere, they are
that good.
With better pots, and a pickup upgrade you've virtually got an es335,
in my opinion, and saved a lot of money in the process.
Constantly you hear comment about epis being koreas and 335s being
american, as if there is some deep meaning in this.
There isn't.
except on the price tag.
gibson staffs the Korean factory with American quality control, last I
knew about it. Some now claim that some/all epis are inpected in the
USA... some have stickers on the back, reportedly, which say so.
I think this is a final inspection, done here, and that it's probably
true that Gibson keeps quality control staff in korea as well.
At any rate, the problems associated with epiphones in this model are
not severe, and no greater than problems associated with gibsons
american made products, as has been reported in RMMG time and again.
Buy the sheraton. I did.
:-)
Twang!
/-)
gre...@hotmail.com
>In article <36B7EB...@idirect.ca>, z...@idirect.ca wrote:
>
>> I was just wondering if anyone could explain to me the differences
>> between Epiphone's Sheraton and ES-335.. They look a heck of a lot
>> alike, but I've noticed somewhat of a difference in tone (maybe it was
>> just the models I was demoing).. Other than headstock and metal plating
>> on the hardware, what's the difference?
>> Thanks.
>> -Zac
>
>The pickups, the tuners, the wiring harness (pots, switch, jack, and
>wires), the quality of the wood, and the quality of the workmanship are
>all better on the 335. The 335 is made in America with American made parts
>and subject to American Gibson quality control. The Epiphone is
>mass-produced in Korea of cheaper parts, then inspected and set up at the
>Gibson plant in Nashville. This is not to say that you won't find a good
>Epiphone - you might. Your chances are much better, though, w/ a real
>Gibson. A good compromise is to find a nice playing, nice sounding
>(acoustically) Epiphone, then put some reissue Gibson PAF pickups and a
>Gibson wiring harness in it and upgrade the tuners. Then the differences
>in the sound between the Epi and the 335 will be a lot less severe.
>
>bro...@flash.net
This seems to be a running topic in this newsgroup and
A short while back I posted a response to a previous post concerning
this issue. I'd like to re-post my previous post here as a resonse but
I'd like to add that I don't consider myself an expert and I'm not a
virtuoso or a great guitar technician..probably closer to a hack. But
I love it and I've been playing for 32 years and have in the past
played in many different bands playing many different styles of music.
I no longer play music as a profession and am more or less retired in
general. I have been fortunate enough to have been able to afford a
small guitar and amp collection and I still try to buy one or two
quality guitars per year for both enjoyment and as an investment
($2000 in an IRA or $2000 toward a Martin HD-28? you tell me what
you'd do hehe). I've never owned the current version of the Epiphone
Sheaton but I have owned 2 Gibson ES-335's, a Gibson Trini Lopez (an
ES-335 based guitar) and a 60's American made Epiphone Riviera (also a
335-like guitar) so I'm aware of the instrument, its feel, its visual
impression and its sonic qualities..Here's my previous post:
>I really think the problem happens when we expect performance from appearence.
.yes..it looks like a Gibson...so it should sound like a Gibson..or
Martin...or whatever. This is very much like making a body shell to
resemble a Mercedes-Benz...putting in the suspension from a Honda,
the powerplant from a Hundai. and having the local high school's auto
shop class put it all together and then saying..."But it looks like a
Benz...why doesn't it perform like a Benz?"...another mistake
especially with the Sheraton II model are the comparisons to Gibson
ES-335...Sheratons were never the equivalent model to the ES-335..they
were more like a mono version of the higher scale.and more voiced
toward Jazz (with their mini-humbuckers) ES-355. The original Riviera
actually being closer to the ES-335 though also with mini humbuckers.
The Epiphone Dot currently offered as a 335 clone is also closer to
the Sheraton than the 335. ES-335's necks are made from one piece
mahogany. The Sheaton and The Dot have necks made from multiple
laminations of maple. The Riviera has a mahogany neck. Epiphones when
they were made domestically weren't exact counterparts of Gibsons but
were "similar" models. One reason being that shop owners with the
Gibson franchises didn't want close, direct competition from other
Gibson dealers so the smaller , lower volume shops were allowed
Epiphone franchises which allowed them to offer a competitive
instrument at a lower over-head (and cost) of a Gibson. This way
Gibson sold just as many guitars, maintained the snob appeal of its
brand, and the consumer had the option of a Gibson quality instrument
at a discounted price. By the late 60's there was so much competition
in the guitar market that as a cost cutting measure Gibson began to
apply the Epiphone name to a much lower-priced Japanese made line of
instruments. These, while bearing the name, had nothing in common with
the domestic instruments. There was even a 335-esque model offered
then...The EA-250...bolt on neck and all. This continues today with
Korean made instruments promoted as Gibson-like or as other brands of
instruments with established, distinctive voices.
There are so many factors which contribute to an instrument's "voice"
that appearence alone won't cut it. While "looking" like a 335 if it
has a maple neck rather than a mahogany neck the sound transference
from neck to body will be different and while perhaps only slight,
still it will sound different. If the internal sound block is high
density, one piece maple again the resonance will be much different
than that from a sound block of another type of wood or even from that
of a laminated maple sound block. The Gibson humbuckers have a unique
sound also contributing to the overall sound picture..on and on..
Now, about Heritage guitars. Heritages are probably closer to the
original concept of what purpose the Epiphone served. In my opinion
you'll be hard-pressed to find a better dollar/value ratio than you
will with a Heritage. BUT...Heritage doesn't make a ES-335 copy.
Heritage makes two models of semi-acoustic guitars : the H-535 and the
H-555..these sound like Heritages ...and that's a good thing. Yes,
they are 24.75 " scale, double cutaway, dual humbuckered,
maple-bodied/mahogany necked semi-acoustic guitars made in the former
Gibson factory in Kalamazoo but they aren't copies. These instruments
are completely capable of standing on their own without cheap looking
mother of whatever inlays and glossy poly finishes...but they aren't
cheap..they are less costly than the Gibsons and slightly more costly
than the Korean aspirants. I think I realised just how much impact
Heritage had a few years back when Gibson introduced the ES-336 and my
first thought was..."it looks like a Heritage". Check them out you
won't be disappointed.. It is my intention to purchase a Heritage
H-555 as soon as I'm able to recover a bit financially from a very
recent big ticket purchase.(and think of a really good reason why I
need it to tell to the domestic comptroller hehe)
http://www.net-link.net/rymusic/heritage.html
The ultimate arbitrator is the playing of any instrument. While
you're never going to find an imported $600 guitar that sounds
exactly like a 335...or has the same quality of materials or
components..or attention to detail..or quality of finish...you may be
able to find something that meets your personal requirements and
satisfies your needs and if it makes you happy then life is good for
everyone. But it's so unfair to expect $3000 performance and sound
from $600 price. But even $600 is nothing to sneeze at and you should
be able to expect a level of performance and sound that satifies you
and the expectations that you had when you spent your money.
Do I think that Gibsons or any upscale instruments are worth the
price? I think very often, although not always, that you get what you
pay for or at least expect to get what you pay for. Very often I'll
see a guitar and ask myself..."$8000 for a bleeding piece of flamey
wood?, give me a break!!" and in the next breath say..."Damn , I wish
I had $8000"... I think also that Gibson and the other domestic guitar
companies all have some quality issues which need to be addressed to
make that large expenditure worthy. I recently (within the last month)
purchased a Gibson acoustic guitar with a list price of over $4000 and
already the engraved, painted pickguard is losing its paint in spots
with no discernable cause (not wear). Gibson has promised to rectify
the problem (nothing as yet) but maybe a simple solution such as a
coat of clear lacquer would seal and protect the paint and at this
price point this is expected.
I want to finish by saying this is not an indictment of Epiphone or
any other imported company. For the money they charge Epiphone
produces what can and should be expected. I love Epiphones. I own
three including the second real guitar I ever owned (a late 60's
dreadnought) that I've had for 30 years and still use and a Japanese
imported 12 string that I've had and played for over 20 years with no
problems at all and it's still intact even keeping the strings at
concert pitch in the case for months at a time...try that with a
Guild. If you want the appearence of a 335 or a Martin D-28...or any
guitar it's very possible to achieve that with a copy. I know there'll
be those with the stories of their Epiphone or Yamaha being a/b
compared against a real Gibson and coming out a winner. Well, a few
months ago I did the same thing with the owner of a local shop playing
a $4000 custom shop ES-335, an $18,000 '62 ES-335 and a $600 Epiphone
Sheraton II while I was in the amp room unable to see which he was
playing. The Epiphone was never my first choice for sound but did come
in second for volume level of the pickups (The Paf's on the '62 had
lower output but tone and definition beyond words) While this was in
no way a fair assessment of the Epi's worth it did show the difference
was obvious. If you want the sound, performance, quality of
components, longevity, re-salability... ect you're going to have to
pay the price of admission. Much like paying a $5 cover at a bar to
see a tribute band and being disappointed when they weren't quite the
same as the real band but maybe, just maybe the tribute band kept you
entertained and made you happy enough that it was worth the $5 and
someday when the real band comes to town and you can swing it you'll
put the $85 down to see them..and hopefully you won't say "damn, the
tribute band was just as good as the real deal..why'd I pay $85 for
that ???" Check out the Heritage. You should be able to find the
H-535 with a case for under $1100 or a bit more than the price of a
Sheraton with new Gibson pickups, pots, switches, tuning machines and
a decent nut 8-)
Gregzy
I'd also like to add that on February 1st I went to my dealer and the
Epiphone "Dot" he ordered for me to check out had arrived. Upon
plugging it in there was immediate crackling from the output jack
(loose) the treble pickup's tone control pot was also loose, had very
little roll off and it also appeared that the pick up selector had
been wired in reverse. The finsh appeared ok but the intonation was
off by 2 or 3 cents on both the "G" and the "B" (easily corrected but
someone had signed the card attesting to the "set up" which also
needed adjustment ..The low "E" string buzzed at the 14th fret and was
dead at the 15th). My initial impression had I just purchased this
guitar would be "I want my money back" In all fairness I was the one
to unpack this guitar and the shop owner assured me it would never
reach the floor that way but from other posts it appears that some
have at other shops. That Heritage looks better and better.
That's my story and I'm sticking to it.
dave
>
> In article <36B7EB...@idirect.ca>, z...@idirect.ca wrote:
>
> > I was just wondering if anyone could explain to me the differences
> > between Epiphone's Sheraton and ES-335.. They look a heck of a lot
> > alike, but I've noticed somewhat of a difference in tone (maybe it was
> > just the models I was demoing).. Other than headstock and metal plating
> > on the hardware, what's the difference?
> > Thanks.
> > -Zac
>
> The pickups, the tuners, the wiring harness (pots, switch, jack, and
> wires), the quality of the wood, and the quality of the workmanship are
> all better on the 335. The 335 is made in America with American made parts
> and subject to American Gibson quality control. The Epiphone is
> mass-produced in Korea of cheaper parts, then inspected and set up at the
> Gibson plant in Nashville. This is not to say that you won't find a good
> Epiphone - you might. Your chances are much better, though, w/ a real
> Gibson. A good compromise is to find a nice playing, nice sounding
> (acoustically) Epiphone, then put some reissue Gibson PAF pickups and a
> Gibson wiring harness in it and upgrade the tuners. Then the differences
> in the sound between the Epi and the 335 will be a lot less severe.
>
> bro...@flash.net
gre...@hotmail.com
Coleman) wrote:
>Zac Reaney-Barker <z...@idirect.ca> wrote:
>
>>I was just wondering if anyone could explain to me the differences
>>between Epiphone's Sheraton and ES-335.. They look a heck of a lot
>>alike, but I've noticed somewhat of a difference in tone (maybe it was
>>just the models I was demoing).. Other than headstock and metal plating
>>on the hardware, what's the difference?
>>Thanks.
>>-Zac
>
>you must have one exceptional Epiphone there Pat because I've looked at dozens
of them and was even willing to buy one if it could have only met only
a moderately demanding criteria of expected performance.
Unfortunately they all were cheap looking , cheaply made, dipped in
plastic, sad , tone-less reminiscenses of a once great guitar. I think
you're very lucky being so happy with the instrument you have but I
disagree with you about finding the Epiphone vastly prettier..that's
only true if you prefer gun sprayed poly plastic over hand rubbed
lacquer... I can understand how you'd like for your guitar to go up
against great instruments and someway be comparable but the basis of
your comparisons are flawed. You're out of your league going up
against something as venerable as the Gibson ES-335 with your guitar .
I can agree that if they can get their quality up higher they will be
a good value in the under $800 range competing against Samick HF650's
(your guitar with a different headstock) or a Washburn HB-35 (a much
better choice than the Sheraton in some people's opinion) the Hohner
HS3S and the Aria 5TA62. These are the guitars that are comparable to
the Epiphone Sheratons, Dots and Rivieras..not the ES-335 or even the
Heritage H535
and if you're smart you'll save your money, sell your Epiphone on eBay
(you should be able to get $500 for it easy there) and buy yourself a
Heritage H535..Yes, I've seen people on stage with Epiphones and my
first thought isn't "wow that guy is a pro and he plays an Epiphone!"
my thought is "wow...that guys is a pro and he plays an Epiphone?"
Just my nickel's worth. No offence intended.
Gregzy
dave
dipped in anything. You really make this sound like a piece of shit
guitar which it is not. But you are entitled to an opinion even as
flawed and biased as yours seems to be. On offence intended.
Patrick F. Coleman
>On Wed, 03 Feb 1999 09:06:59 GMT, tw...@prairie.lakes.com (Patrick F.
>Coleman) wrote:
>>Zac Reaney-Barker <z...@idirect.ca> wrote:
>>
>>>I was just wondering if anyone could explain to me the differences
>>>between Epiphone's Sheraton and ES-335.. They look a heck of a lot
>>>alike, but I've noticed somewhat of a difference in tone (maybe it was
>>>just the models I was demoing).. Other than headstock and metal plating
>>>on the hardware, what's the difference?
>>>Thanks.
>>>-Zac
gregzy leaps in, without thinking and adds:
>>/-)
>>you must have one exceptional Epiphone there Pat because I've looked at dozens
>of them and was even willing to buy one if it could have only met only
>a moderately demanding criteria of expected performance.
That would be 'accepted' performance.
To say that an epiphone sheraton does not meet a moderate demand of
performance is absurd with no comparison made at all.
Four years of ownership and the number of email I have, on file, of
happy buyers is what I bring to that argument.
But what epi brings is far more important.
On my guitar the inlays and binding are excellent, all the
craftsmanship is well done. The materials have held up with no
problems right down to the gold plate.
The playability is so constant, and on a guitar with action as low as
I need it, we are talking about keeping a sharp eye, I'm amazed.
The sound is what you make of it. That's a given on epiphones. The
acoustic tones can be as good, or better than many gibsons, as well as
worse, of course, and the electric sounds are easily swapped for. No
problem.
That's just the obvious things you are attempting to ignore.
>Unfortunately they all were cheap looking , cheaply made, dipped in
>plastic, sad , tone-less reminiscenses of a once great guitar.
That's funny... none of the epiphone sheratons I've ever seen or have
heard reports on come anywhere near close to your description.
I might believe you except that the above is as sure an exaggeration
as I've ever seen in my life.
> I think
>you're very lucky being so happy with the instrument you have but I
>disagree with you about finding the Epiphone vastly prettier..that's
>only true if you prefer gun sprayed poly plastic over hand rubbed lacquer.
No... you have a hard-on for poly, apparently.
I think the argument that a lacquer looks any better is definately
personal taste entirely, and I know damn well that the amount of tonal
property that finish might have is not going to have any effect on
either a sheraton or an es335 due to the fact that they are both made
entirely of laminated woods.
Also, the sunburst finish on the epi sheraton gets good remarks
constantly, the only black model I've heard described, since I haven't
seen one, was greatly appreciated by the gentleman who not only looked
at them at my urging, but drove to a store I recommended to buy the
thing.
The white one has one current owner who was in here for a time, and
another who upgraded to a Heritage. Both were quite happy with the
guitars looks.
The natural finish is georgeous.
I've not seen a bad one ever.
I just got two more emails from one guy who bought an epi SG and and
Epi sheraton, and another guy who bought a riviera and a sheraton.
Both were blown away by the finishes. (hello Jim and Joe)
So, in the end, although you have a preference, it is just an opinion,
and you tend to state these things as perfect facts, true across the
board.
That won't fly in here.
>I can understand how you'd like for your guitar to go up
>against great instruments and someway be comparable but the basis of
>your comparisons are flawed.
This is bullshit of the highest order.
In the first place I can put a squier fender up against great
instruments and have it come away comperable.
You are also, rudely and without reason, intimating that I'd lie or
decieve either myself or others in order to make my guitar look good,
or to make myself feel better about owning it.
Let me just say that in person, I'd be in your face over that, but for
now, consider rephrasing the above to something less condescending
until you have something to back it up.
For the simple fact that your sentence has no other criteria and
they are both guitars.. ie: comperable, I win by default.
However, I shall now proceed to educate your pup ass in a not too kind
manner, since you've seen fit to attempt to bite my ear while I was
laying here in front of the fire snoozing peacefully.
>You're out of your league going up
>against something as venerable as the Gibson ES-335 with your guitar .
Here again we have a statement that makes no sense.
How can it? It has no foundation.
In order for this to make sense there has to be a point.
Since the only point we really have is your saying the guitars aren't
comperable, and that point is surely proved in my favor above, I think
I win, again, by default.
Still, it's time to teach the puppy to go outside, so..
The list of comperable features between these two guitars is deep.
The list of persons agreeing on just those features alone, is perfect.
Everyone agrees they have comperable features.
The judgement of those features, something you-dumbass, keep leaving
out of your post probably because you're thick, but perhaps because
you're just bright enough to avoid them, is another thing.
Example of the above:
they are both built to gibson specs.
they are both twin humbuck guitars.
they are both laminated maple.
They use similar woods.
Those are all comperable features.
However, when you start to judge the two for relative merit
(and this is what you mean, but couldn't express.. it isn't just
comparison, it has to be comparison done to some sensible standard and
in detail)
you also find some differences:
gold hardware
abalone and mother of pearl triangle in block fretboard inlays.
multi ply binding almost everywhere.. even the headstock and
pickguard.
bound f holes.
vine headstock inlay.
.. all these things are only available on the epiphone.
coming in and saying a guitar with these finely executed extra
features IN NO WAY is comperable to or looks as good as a gibson is a
bit of obvious idiocy to every single person reading this post, and
the third strong point in which it is shown you blather and say not a
fucking thing.
And if you don't stop chewing my slippers you'll be chained up behind
the garage tonight.
>I can agree that if they can get their quality up higher they will be
>a good value in the under $800 range competing against Samick HF650's
>(your guitar with a different headstock)
They are already a good value. That you don't include that as a given,
just amazes me. But why you raise the value range from the 600.00 they
sell for, to 800.00 is even more of a surprise.
It seems you not only don't know how to shop, you don't know where.
Stick around and keeps your ears up, Ruff, you'll benefit.
I haven't played the Samick. And the fact is, you don't find them very
often.
Furthermore, the sheraton has nothing to hide it's head about in it's
price range.. which is 600.00 with lifetime warranty and hardshell
case. Availability is always a factor, and so is Gibsons warranty,
taken care of right here in the USA.
Also, there are some differences beyond cosmetic between these two
models as well.
> or a Washburn HB-35 (a much
I've not seen a washburn of any stripe I'd have shoved up my ass.
I have seen scads of them sold as factory seconds, and know that many
develop problems sold as firsts, and I also have seen a good many of
Washburns products on the shelf and seeming to have a hard time
surviving just hanging there, so if you want to go with Washburn... be
my guest. I however, returned two Washburns listing in the 1200.00
range and I'll be sticking with my epiphone.
>better choice than the Sheraton in some people's opinion)
some people are more trusting than others. I am not like that.
I don't believe them and won't until I can see several HB35s.
Strangely, I keep running into epiphones instead.
>the Hohner
>HS3S
Never saw a hohner I ever liked either. Never heard one mentioned in
here either.
On the other hand, the joint is popping with epi owners.
Hmmmm.
>and the Aria 5TA62. These are the guitars that are comparable to
>the Epiphone Sheratons, Dots and Rivieras..
Never heard of that one either. Or ever heard of anyone bothering to
compare it to anything. I have seen arias, but they didn't compare to
epis. Still, I haven't seen them all.
>not the ES-335 or even the
>Heritage H535
In a way, you are right. The Epis compare much better to the lesser
guitars. However, you seem to be leaping from your opinion, and again,
it's just that Fido, nothing more, to a conclusion which as yet is
unsupported. Let's all move forward now to where you make your final
trip.
>and if you're smart you'll save your money, sell your Epiphone on eBay
>(you should be able to get $500 for it easy there)
Why would I sell it?
According to your 500.00 price, by the way.. I'll be making 75.00.\
That's because I do know how and where to shop, I humbly submit.
And though it's tempting to pick up a few bucks, I, like Keb Mo and
John Lee Hooker, and others, am going to keep my sheraton.
> and buy yourself a
>Heritage H535..Yes, I've seen people on stage with Epiphones and my
>first thought isn't "wow that guy is a pro and he plays an Epiphone!"
And your second thought was, I wonder how come I think I'm smarter
than he is.. right?
>my thought is "wow...that guys is a pro and he plays an Epiphone?"
It sounds like a personal problem, to me.
Your stuck sitting there thinking your opinion counts for more
somehow, you think you are right and others are wrong, and in every
way! That's what is really incredible.
The fact is, it's just your opinion. It certainly cannot carry any
more wieght than you gather in consonance in here.
And it can't overwhelm the wieght of so many people in here who
disagree.
I could have gone over every single aspect of the Epiphone/Gibson
argument, in detail, and shown clearly that there is a choice to be
made between these guitars. Especially interesting points given the
vast difference in their prices.
And even Polfus would sink to agreeing with me that an epiphone is
a worthwhile lifetime investment in a guitar. not a guitar market
investment, a player, a keeper, a guitar you could keep as long as you
like, with every degree of pride your playing and your enjoyment alone
can provide.
Not to mention that it's an instrument which has already taken the
stage in the hands of many many players at all levels and given
thousands of people great pleasure.
I've made this as short as I can while still affording myself the
indulgence of the .. er.. rolled up newspaper.. while clarifying what
I see as weak arguments from you.
I've tried to let 'famous' players and satisfied owners---and by
the way, most of these people shopped by comparing the epi to the
gibson, aint that a coinky dink? yet you've ignored that---speak with
me.
No matter that professional 'stars' use epis, no matter that
working pros use them, no matter that someone who started playing in
the mid 60s uses them, no matter that players who are just beginning
and intermediate players use them, you know better.
You know more about wood, you know more about what looks good, you
know more about tone.
Here's a biscuit. go play.
Twang!
RE:
>Just my nickel's worth. No offence intended.
None taken, and none sent your way.
The above is just my way of making a few jokes. It's fun to play the
old crank and all.
Happy picking.
>Gregzy
/-)
Patrick F. Coleman
>flawed and biased as yours seems to be. No offence intended.
I hope you catch my reply to him, dave.
I haven't heard anyone dis the white sheraton, by the way.
His use of the word dipped is pretty interesting, isn't it?
Do you suppose they just strap these epis to a sheep over there or
what?
;-)
Twang!
/-)
gre...@hotmail.com
Your pearl white Samick (I own three Epiphones and they aren't
anything like what they sell with that name on them now so let's just
call them what they are) is coated with a poly plastic finish..Higher
quality guitars are lacquered...and opaque finishes are usually used
to cover the most flawed pieces of wood . No, I didn't say they were
pieces of shit. I said they were ok for what they are but it seems the
people who own them want them to be up in the realm of the ES-335...
and find all kinds of ways to either dismiss the ES-335 or build up
the import beyond its actual level of performance and quality of
sound and it just doesn't happen that way. For a $600 guitar they're
fine. As I said I almost bought one ..just to have..but then it
arrived at the store and it was as bad sounding and as cheap feeling
and looking as the other two dozen I've seen and played so I'm
putting the idea of Epiphone out of my head and considering a Heritage
H535..a lot more guitar for slightly more money than it takes to get
an Epiphone playable. If you're happy with your guitar that's all that
really matters...but don't say "oh those Gibsons ain't worth it...my
Epiphone sounds and looks just as good" because if you do you're going
to look like an idiot to anyone who has ever actually played an ES-335
and then played a Samick. As far as my flawed and biased opinion...I'd
be very surprised if you can find a 335 owner that would agree that
any current Epiphone is the equal to a 335...is that bias? or
assessment based upon experience? I hate to knock anyone's instrument
but you did knock my flawed and biased opinion which I treasure so
very much. As always this is only my opinion and you're welcome to
disagree with me...but then you'll be wrong.
Gregzy
Patrick F. Coleman
!Koi
>
> If you're happy with your guitar that's all that
> really matters...but don't say "oh those Gibsons ain't worth it...my
> Epiphone sounds and looks just as good" because if you do you're going
> to look like an idiot to anyone who has ever actually played an ES-335
> and then played a Samick.
Perhaps you don't understand....I believe the claim is that the
Epiphone archtops are 75% (or more) of a Gibson, in *practical*
aspects, for 25% of the cost. I believe this is backed up by the fact
(not opinion) that many professional musicians, including many that
can afford anything they want, play various Epiphones. If they were
junk, then I'd figure they'd play something else. Now, I imagine that
most of what they play is hand-selected to get the premium examples,
but anyone can do that if they are interested in spending the time and
effort.
No offense, but I do place much more value on the opinions of working
musicians, than I do in yours, a self-described "hack", though I
suspect you probably qualify as something more than a hack. This may
have to do with lack of more information about you, but that's the way
it remains.
By the way, I believe that my Lexus LS400 that cost $35,000 a few
years ago (they are more like $50,000 today) is far preferable to all
but the highest-priced (over $70,000) Mercedes Benz autos, and
certainly a FAR better value than the closest equivalently-featured
Benz. But I think you'd be hard-pressed to find a Benz owner who would
agree. It's a religion.
> As far as my flawed and biased opinion...I'd be very surprised if you can find a 335 owner
> that would agree that any current Epiphone is the equal to a 335...is that bias?
No. But as I said above, I think you misunderstand the claim.
And, yes, I agree, you will probably not find anyone who spent the
money for a 335 to admit that an Epiphone is anywhere near the guitar.
But, for most of us, 75% of a Gibson at an affordable cost is plenty,
plenty fine.
> As always this is only my opinion and you're welcome to disagree with me...but then you'll be wrong.
Or not.
Joe
Zekmoe
>anything like what they sell with that name on them now so let's just
>call them what they are) is coated with a poly plastic finish..Higher
>quality guitars are lacquered...and opaque finishes are usually used
>to cover the most flawed pieces of wood .
I agree based on the dozen or so Epis I've played. They seem to be marketed at
kids who will never afford the real thing, and run their signal thru some
horrible multiFX floor processor to hide any resemblance of tone. Nothing quite
wrong with that, just not a great sounding tonefull guitar in the traditional
sense.
Bob Maggio
Matt
epi dot, and it plays geat. Sure I would have wanted a gibson, but are
they $1800 dollars better? I'm not sure about that. I play for a
living, and my epi brings home the dough and makes just as much music
as a Gibson would....fat tone....good intonation...good pickups. Are
you a good player? You can make the epi work VERY easily....or are you
a guitar collector who likes to talk about plastic this and bone that
and finish and all the other stuff that people like to complain about
when they can't play? No slam here, but I've seen it before....just my
2 cents.
Provider Transportation
>A stock sheraton II could be taken onstage anytime, anywhere, they are
>that good.
>With better pots, and a pickup upgrade you've virtually got an es335,
>in my opinion, and saved a lot of money in the process.
>
>Constantly you hear comment about epis being koreas and 335s being
>american, as if there is some deep meaning in this.
>There isn't.
>except on the price tag.
>gibson staffs the Korean factory with American quality control, last I
>knew about it. Some now claim that some/all epis are inpected in the
>USA... some have stickers on the back, reportedly, which say so.
>I think this is a final inspection, done here, and that it's probably
>true that Gibson keeps quality control staff in korea as well.
>At any rate, the problems associated with epiphones in this model are
>not severe, and no greater than problems associated with gibsons
>american made products, as has been reported in RMMG time and again.
>
>Buy the sheraton. I did.
>:-)
>Twang!
>
>/-)
Do you work for Epiphone buddy. Take it easy. It's not Vietnam!!
Ever wonder why a Corvette is more expensive than a Hyundai????
Harf
>
Provider Transportation
Hey Patrick I think your going through post consumer trauma. Try and relax.
you made a bad choice you don't have to justify it. Gracefully admit you
made a mistake and sell it to some stupid schmuck for close to what you paid
for it and save up for the big leagues.
P.s. the guy that wrote the "wow, that guy is a pro and he plays an
Epiphone" thingy rules!!!
Peace I'm out.
Harf
Mike Hartigan
Well, my Sheraton says 'Epiphone', and it also says 'Gibson', but if you
want me to call it a Samick, I'll humor you.
I feel qualified to respond to this because I have owned and played both
an Epi ... sorry, "Samick" Sheraton II and a Gibson ES-335. While I
agree with the general concepts you discuss, vis-a-vis a $3000
instrument vs a $600 instrument, I wholeheartedly disagree with your
attempt to paint this as a universal truth, based on actual experience
(unlike you, I have extensive experience with the instruments that I'm
comparing). The Epi is not a Gibson. Few will disagree with that (in
fact, it seems that that claim is most often attributed to Epi owners by
disgruntled Gibson owners). But the quality of materials and workmanship
belies the $2400 price discrepancy. That $2400 difference would suggest
a far greater quality difference to a rational, thinking person - a
group that you apparently belong to (otherwise, I wouldn't be wasting my
time with this response). But it just doesn't pan out that way.
My "Vintage Sunburst" Sheraton doesn't have an opaque finish. And there
are no flaws to be found through its 'plastic' finish.
I don't want my Epi, rather, "Samick", Sheraton II "to be up in the
realm of the ES-335". I want it to be what it is (I'm not motivated by
brand names -- all of my clothes have the labels on the INside). Nor do
I want to "dismiss the ES-335". I loved my ES-335 - why would I want to
dismiss it? And I certainly don't want to "build up the import beyond
its actual level of performance and quality of sound". I don't need to.
It has exactly the performance and quality of sound that I want.
I disagree with your statement that, for $600, they're fine. For $1000,
or maybe $1500, they would be merely 'fine'. For $600 (or less,
typically), they're superb.
The Sheraton is a fine instrument. Dimensions and weight are virtually
identical to my Gibson. Playability is virtually identical to my Gibson.
Acoustically, it is virtually identical to my Gibson. Appearance-wise,
it is superior to my Gibson (opinion). Pickups are different flavors of
the same sound. Close, but not identical. You would conclude that the
Gibson pickups are, solely judging by their price, 'better'. I say that
they're neither better nor worse. Just different, but very close. The
Epi's are a bit warmer. I have heard that the pots and wiring harness
are inferior on the Epi ("Samick"). Mine are 10+ years old now, and I
have no complaints. If I ever need to replace anythng in this area,
I'll let you know what I find. The tuners on my Epi, er, "Samick" stay
in tune just fine. I seldom, if ever, do any tweaking during a session.
You say you almost bought one, but the one that arrived sounded bad, was
as cheap feeling and looking as the other two dozen you've seen and
played. Frankly, I don't buy that, but I suppose it's possible that you
were looking at merchandise at an insurance liquidation sale or some
such.
--
+---------------------------------------///--------------------+
| | /// |
| If I didn't know better, I'd | Mike Hartigan |
| say it was a sectional sofa. \\\| hart...@enteract.dot.com |
| \\\/// |
+---------------------------------\\\/-------------------------+
Scott Pritchard
I don't play for a living, but I used to gig from time to time
and make a little dough. I can certainly see your point. I once
had to gibson ES335 that fell in it's case during a pratice and
the headstock cracked off. Performing with a vintage gibson that
you like.... well is taking your chances. After this happened I switched
to a Ibanez strat copy, which I liked alot, and didn't feel so
worried all the time about an expensive instrument getting damaged.
The mahogany neck gibsons all have that problem. If they fall face
first, the head stock cracks off. The three piece maple neck les
pauls are tougher.
Buddy Guy often tells the story of his strat falling off the roof
rack doing 70 mph, causing nothing more than a need for to retuning.
Love that story.
I would use a cheaper good instrument to gig, and a expensive one
for practice from time to time, or limitied use gigging, but this
makes owning this sort of instrument a real luxury for me.
I'm down to owning one 89 american standard strat now, very relaible and
tough as they come.
Scott
In article <36b881b4....@news.pixi.com>, guitar11@$aloha$.com (Matt) writes:
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!Koi
>
> Do you work for Epiphone buddy. Take it easy. It's not Vietnam!!
> Ever wonder why a Corvette is more expensive than a Hyundai????
>
> Harf
Because a Hyundai doesn't make the owner feel like more of a man than
he is?
Just a guess.
Joe
gre...@hotmail.com
Coleman) wrote:
Ok Pat..I know you own one and you're proud of it and that's fine
and this is going to be my last response but you're happy with your
guitar and I'm happy knowing that you're happy..
>>>/-)
>>>you must have one exceptional Epiphone there Pat because I've looked at dozens
>>of them and was even willing to buy one if it could have only met only
>>a moderately demanding criteria of expected performance.
>The ones I played including the one I ordered were in my opinion
felt cheap. there were loose knobs and the output jack was loose. I've
played hundreds of guitars over the 32 years or so I've been playing.
I own over 20 guitars currently and I think by now I can assess
"cheap" within a reasonable degree
>That would be 'accepted' performance.
>To say that an epiphone sheraton does not meet a moderate demand of
>performance is absurd with no comparison made at all.
the comparison was made dozens of times...I have a friend who is a
Gibson/Epiphone dealer. I have access to every model made.. I've
played ES-335's since the 70's..I own a '67 RIviera..Union made in
Kalamazoo. The Sheraton doesn't feel or sound like any of them..what
comparison do you want? I was going to buy one of the bleeding things
just to have one because everyone did say they were a "Good Value"
not that they were an alternative for a 335..Even
>Four years of ownership and the number of email I have, on file, of
>happy buyers is what I bring to that argument.
why on earth would you keep a file of happy owners? to further
convince yourself that your guitar is something more than it is?
>But what epi brings is far more important.
>On my guitar the inlays and binding are excellent, all the
putting inlays and fluff on a guitar at that level is a waste.They
should have spent the money on decent electronics and tuning machines
rather than jazzing it up to sell on its visual appeal to people more
concerned with image than substance
>craftsmanship is well done. The materials have held up with no
>problems right down to the gold plate.
The gold plate is concealing the low quality machine heads and
bridge..all you see is the gold plate...not the cheesy tuners and
bridge
>The playability is so constant, and on a guitar with action as low as
>I need it, we are talking about keeping a sharp eye, I'm amazed.
It doesn't seem to take much to amaze you and low action isn't a
qualification of quality..I keep most of my guitars at medium to
almost high action on the acoustic I use for fingerpicking
>The sound is what you make of it. That's a given on epiphones. The
>acoustic tones can be as good, or better than many gibsons
I think you're stretching it..and at best this is a subjective
argument and yet more convincing of yourself. I completely disagree
that the Epiphone in any way comes close to the tone of an ES-335.
This is more Pat's wishful thinking because fate dealt him a Korean
Epiphone.The density of the bridge on the Epiphone gives it a thin,
vapid quality in comparison to a tune-o-matic..but if they hadn't
spent so much money putting gold plated glitz on everything maybe they
could have afforded to put decent hardware on them.
, as well as
>worse, of course, and the electric sounds are easily swapped for. No
>problem.
>That's just the obvious things you are attempting to ignore.
>I'm ignoring nothing ..I've bought and sold guitars for 30 years..I consider everything
I've seen everything.
>>Unfortunately they all were cheap looking , cheaply made, dipped in
>>plastic, sad , tone-less reminiscenses of a once great guitar.
>
>That's funny... none of the epiphone sheratons I've ever seen or have
>heard reports on come anywhere near close to your description.
that came from my direct experience with a blond Epiphone Sheraton I
could have bought new for under $500...I told you I can get these
things cheap and was going to. The finish was plastic looking and
feeling..poly finishes don't warm up after playing them for a while
like lacquer does..The tone was thin..as I said I own an older Riviera
and thought a Sheraton would be cool if it was even close...but it
wasn't...then my friend said I could get a DOT really cheap (under
$400) since I was going to put in a set of mid-60's Patent number
stickered Gibson humbuckers and put on Gibson Kluson machine heads
from the same era..all I was looking for was the body and neck..but
when I FELT the guitar I then didn't feel I wanted to waste such great
hardware and electronics on a guitar that wasn't worth it when the
pots and the switch was so cheesy and the finish did nothing for me.
>I might believe you except that the above is as sure an exaggeration
>as I've ever seen in my life.
>
>
>> I think
>>you're very lucky being so happy with the instrument you have but I
>>disagree with you about finding the Epiphone vastly prettier..that's
>>only true if you prefer gun sprayed poly plastic over hand rubbed lacquer.
>
>No... you have a hard-on for poly, apparently.
>I think the argument that a lacquer looks any better is definately
>personal taste entirely, and I know damn well that the amount of tonal
>property that finish might have is not going to have any effect on
>either a sheraton or an es335 due to the fact that they are both made
>entirely of laminated woods.
very different qualities of laminated woods.. the top veneer of a
ES-335 is twice as thick and is far more higher quality and far more
figured than the maple plywood used in the lesser instruments ...the
"hard on for lacquer was as I explained above...it feels better..it
has nothing to do with tonal characteristics..poly is cheap..cheap
feeling and cheap looking (gloss without depth) and cheap to spray gun
on and hence why it's used on cheap guitars
>Also, the sunburst finish on the epi sheraton gets good remarks
>constantly, the only black model I've heard described, since I haven't
>seen one, was greatly appreciated by the gentleman who not only looked
>at them at my urging, but drove to a store I recommended to buy the
>thing.
so you directed some other poor sap to go buy one of these pieces of
junk to satisfy your ego by having someone else share the exquisite
pleasure of owning a guitar made in deplorable conditions by
underpaid, economically and politically oppressed workers..oh wait
you didn't buy one made in Nashville (hello Ted..that was for
you)..but did you give him any other options except Pat's opinion
based upon what Pat owns and therefore what must be the best choice?
If someone asks me for a recommendation I always try to give them at
least 3 choices in their price range. And whatever I see as the best
buy without regard to brand loyalty and not even you have that because
you own a Samick and push Epiphone and they haven't made Epiphone
guitars since the early 80's and that was only for a year or
so..before that it was 1969 .
>The white one has one current owner who was in here for a time, and
>another who upgraded to a Heritage.
Smart man with the Heritage..I think I've met the guy with the pearl
white one..doesn't seem very bright at all
Both were quite happy with the
>guitars looks.
And that seems to be what matters since I don't think they're
listening to them
>The natural finish is georgeous.
very subjective since the one I considered was ok but nothing special
Ever see a flamed out ES335?. that's gorgeous..have you ever played
an ES-335?
>I've not seen a bad one ever.
>I just got two more emails from one guy who bought an epi SG and and
>Epi sheraton, and another guy who bought a riviera and a sheraton.
>Both were blown away by the finishes. (hello Jim and Joe)
I guess you're amassing an Epihone fan club. Now I'd be interested to
know what the levels of playing experience of these people have and
what other guitars they've owned. I have a feeling the Epiphones are
popular with those who want to look like they own a quality guitar and
that's fine if appearence is their objective. I also have a feeling
we're talking about amateurs with little experience..which isn't to
put anyone down..Epiphones in some cases are the perfect guitar for
those starting out or on a tight budget but when they buy some glitzed
up thing and the trade off is good hardware and electronics then it's
a bad purchase and they need to re-think their thinking . I find the
finishes to look cheap so why don't you put my comments in your file
too since I am an Epiphone owner too and have been since 1969 and I've
had a lot more guitars to compare them to.
So, in the end, although you have a preference, it is just an opinion,
>and you tend to state these things as perfect facts, true across the
>board.
I state things based upon empirical observation..without any emotional
connection or any attempt to establish my choices as valid..I'm not
running around asking people for their opinions on my Gibson Les Pauls
or my Gibson 335 or my Gibson SJ-200 or my Gibson SG Standard or my
Martins or my Fender AMERICAN STANDARD Strats..or my '62 American made
Fender Strat or my American made Riviera or my half dozen imported
guitars because with the exception of the imports I don't have to. I
tell someone.."Yeah, I have an '87 blond dotneck reissue with moderate
flame and early "60's PAF's" they know what I have and it needs no
further qualification or validation..and there'll be those that say
"the PAF's can have low output and the neck is too big I agree and
say "yeah, but the trade off is tone and definition". and I prefer a
wider , flatter neck..and I know they're not for everyone"..not that
the nickel hardware looks good though and the inlays are beautiful.
>That won't fly in here.
OH? are you some way anointed here that your opinions are more valid?
>
>>I can understand how you'd like for your guitar to go up
>>against great instruments and someway be comparable but the basis of
>>your comparisons are flawed.
>
>This is bullshit of the highest order.
>In the first place I can put a squier fender up against great
>instruments and have it come away comperable
.If you believe that you're an idiot Pat..you own a cheap guitar that
you spend all this time trying to validate as being a professional
quality instrument. I conceed that it's not a bad value for the money
but you want it to be even close to something it simply isn't.
>You are also, rudely and without reason, intimating that I'd lie or
>decieve either myself or others in order to make my guitar look good,
>or to make myself feel better about owning it.
no, I've just watched for months as you sold everyone in this NG Pat's
take on the Korean's Epiphones and now after playing many of them and
examining them for my own use I find them to be inferior..and still
Pat is finding others to back up his belief that he owns a worthy
guitar..and who does he find to back him up? others who own the same
cheesy guitars..yeah about that Epiphone SG? I bought one for a
friend's then 10 year old son as his first guitar two Christmases ago
and it found its market with that one..and before I sent it to Britain
I compared it next to my '68 SG Standard and all I can say is
"hahahahahaha" but that along with his 15 watt Park amp it has made a
young kid really happy. Maybe he'll want to be in your Epiphone fan
club too.
>Let me just say that in person, I'd be in your face over that,
YOU DON'T HAVE THE BALLS TO GET IN MY FACE BECAUSE YOU KNOW I KNOW
MORE THAN YOU AND WOULD EAT YOU ALIVE AND THEN SHIT YOU OUT BURYING
THE PILES WITH THAT GUITAT OF YOURS
but for
>now, consider rephrasing the above to something less condescending
>until you have something to back it up.
I'll rephrase it like this..If wishing made it so you'd have a worthy
guitar or at least the guitar you'd like to think you have...as it
stand you have a gold plated wanna be with a plastic finish and cheesy
pickups but given that you find these guitars acceptable your level of
proficency is probably such that you aren't able to tell the
differences. I'm not going to continue this childish my bike is
shinier than your bike nonsense. One last time I will say this
"The Korean Epiphones are in some cases not a bad value for the money.
However they do have poly plastic finishes that some people may
perceive as cheap. Their machine heads are very cheap and should be
replaced as should the bridge. You have to be careful when replacing
the bridges because Gibson made sure that the tune-o-matic would not
directly replace.(think of why a company would do that to one of its
subsideraries). Your best bet would be re-aligning and re-installing
the tail piece and bridge posts bushings and studs and replacing with
a Gibson Nashville Style Tune-o-matic . When replacing the machine
heads they will have to be reamed to fit the higher quality
after-market tuners probably to 3/8" if you intend on using the
Gibson-like Shaller M-6's..be very careful as the necks and headstocks
are laminated and will split if not carefully done. The pickups are
also of low quality but if replaced with standard GIBSON Humbuckers
the pickguard may not be able to be used due to the size difference
and you'll also need to replace the bezels for the same reason. You
should also replace the 2p3t switch with a Switchcraft switch of the
same type...and the volume and tone pots replaced with Allen-Bradley
500k pots..also adding a .020 mf capacitor between each set of control
pots will increase the highs and the rolloff..almost non-existent from
the factory..the only problem is doing this on a semi-acoustic guitar
without access plates is going to be more fun than you ever imagined
My only objective in any of this was to state that in no stretch of
the imagination could the Epiphone imports be considered an equal on
the basis of sound quality, quality of components, workmanship.
quality of appearence or any other criteria to the Gibson ES-335 and
that for the price they were reasonably good instruments but my
personal experience found them to be severely lacking in quality, not
what I feel is an aesthetically pleasing either visually or aurally.
I don't wish to further discuss this with Pat unless he wants to do it
entirely on a technical basis without the emotion of validating his
ownership choices. If anyone would care to tell me that I'm full of
shit and that the Epiphones are equal to the Gibson ES-335 I'd love
to hear your reasoning and rationale...and because the mother of
whatever fretboard markers are prettier isn't a reason...I'd also like
to hear comments from ES-335 owners..come on guys..I'm out here
fighting that Korean thing alone..any tobacco sunburst owners unhappy
with their "yellowy finish?..any other Blondie owners think their
flame is less attractive than cabinet plywood?...I'll be watching for
further reaction and I swear I didn't mean this as a troll but damn it
I've listened to Pat spew this nonsense for months..went and checked
it out for myself and discovered that ther is no way an Epiphone can
stand against an ES-335 and any thoughts otherwise is wishful thinking
on their owners part. and one last time I will also say that the
Epiphones do have a valid purpose and market but it isn't as
competition to any ES-335's
> For the simple fact that your sentence has no other criteria and
>they are both guitars.. ie: comperable, I win by default.
you win shit...you're a poser..get a grown up guitar and come to the
table with something besides Korean junk and we'll discuss quality and
subtle sonic differences and how if wishing made it so they'd be a lot
more porno film actors.
>However, I shall now proceed to educate your pup ass in a not too kind
>manner, since you've seen fit to attempt to bite my ear while I was
>laying here in front of the fire snoozing peacefully.
FUCK YOU AND YOUR PUNK IGNORANT ASS
>
>>You're out of your league going up
>>against something as venerable as the Gibson ES-335 with your guitar .
>
>Here again we have a statement that makes no sense.
Makes no sense? YOU ARE OUT OF YOUR LEAGUE WITH YOUR KOREAN EPIPHONE
IN THE REALM OF ES-335'S ...WHAT DOESN'T MAKE SENSE EXCEPT YOUR
REFUSAL TO ACCEPT THIS CLEAR AND PRESENT FACT?
>How can it? It has no foundation.
THE FOUNDATION IS THE EMPIRICAL COMPARISON OF THE TWO INSTRUMENT'S
AESTHETIC, SONIC AND INTRINSIC QUALITIES WHICH RESULTS IN A
DETERMINATION THAT THE EPIPHONE IS INFERIOR IN ALL AREAS UNLESS
EXAMINED FROM A SUBJECTIVE PERSPECTIVE OF PERSONAL TASTE DISREGARDING
THE OBVIOUS DIFFERENCES IN THE QUALITY OF COMPONETS, ATTENTION TO
DETAIL IN THE APPLICATION OF A MORE COMPLEX AND LABOR INTENSIVE AND
POSSIBLY MORE VISUAL AND TACTILE PLEASING FINSH AND THE LONG
ESTABLISHED RESPECT THE INSTRUMENT HAS ATTAINED FROM PROFESSIONAL
MUSICIANS FOR BOTH ITS UTILITY AND ITS WIDELY ACCEPTED AESTHTETIC
QUALITIES.
>In order for this to make sense there has to be a point.
THE POINT IS YOU HAVEN'T A CLUE BEYOND YOUR OWN WISHFUL THINKING.
>Since the only point we really have is your saying the guitars aren't
>comperable, and that point is surely proved in my favor above, I think
>I win, again, by default.
>Still, it's time to teach the puppy to go outside, so..
>
>The list of comperable features between these two guitars is deep.
COMPARABLE IN THAT THEY'RE THE SAME SIZE AND ARE MADE OF SOME FORM OF
WOOD
>The list of persons agreeing on just those features alone, is perfect.
THE ONLY ONES AGREEING SO FAR HAVE BEEN OBVIOUSLY UNKNOWLEDGABLE
PEOPLE SEEKING GUIDENCE AND BEING LEAD ASTRAY BY YOUR NEED TO SATISFY
YOUR EGO THAT THE KOREAN WANNABE YOU OWN IS SOME WAY INTHE SAME ARENA
AS A GIBSON ES-335 AND ITS BARELY IN THE SAME AREA CODE.
>Everyone agrees they have comperable features
NO NOT EVERYONE...SO FAR ONLY OTHER PEOPLE WHO OWN THEM...AND I SURELY
DON'T AGREE SO THAT IN ITSELF ISN'T "EVERYONE".
>The judgement of those features, something you-dumbass, keep leaving
>out of your post probably because you're thick, but perhaps because
>you're just bright enough to avoid them, is another thing.
>Example of the above:
>they are both built to gibson specs.I ADMIT ...SAME SIZE
>they are both twin humbuck guitars.-NO..ONE HAS CHEAP PIECES OF SHIT
HUMBUCKING WHEN NOT MICROPHONICALLING PICK UPS THE OTHER HAS GENUINE
GIBSON HUMBUCKERS.."HUMBUCKERS" ARE A PATENTED TERM BY GIBSON YOU
DWEEB..AND FORD PINTOS AND CORVETTES EACH HAVE TWO DOORS WHAT A
PUTZ!!!
>they are both laminated maple ONE IS CABINET PLYWOOD THE GIBSON
GENUINE ARTICLE IS HIGH QUALITY FLAMED AND FIGURED VENEER ....
>They use similar woods.WITH MILES OF DIFFERENCE IN QUALITY..
.THE EPI HAS A LAMINATED MAPLE NECK THE MAHOGANY STRIPS ARE TO HIDE
THE LAMINATION ...THE ES-335 HAS ONE PIECE NECK OF HONDURAN MAHOGANY
>
>Those are all comperable features.
>However, when you start to judge the two for relative merit
YOU WILL IMMEDIATELY SEE THAT BEYOND A SLIGHT SIMILARITY VISUALLY
THERE IS NO COMPARISON
>
>(and this is what you mean, but couldn't express.. it isn't just
>comparison, it has to be comparison done to some sensible standard and
>in detail) HOW MUCH MORE DETAIL DO YOU WANT?
>
>you also find some differences:
>
>gold hardware GOLD PLATED JUNK
>abalone and mother of pearl triangle in block fretboard inlays.THIN CHEAP PIECES
OF GLITZ IN LIEU OF QUALITY
>multi ply binding almost everywhere.. even the headstock and
BINDING IS MORE GLITZ AND HAS NO EFFECT EXCEPT DISTRACTION FRON THE
INTRINSICALLY INFERIOR PRODUCT PRODUCED BY EPIPHONE
>pickguard-THAT IS THE CHEAPEST , UGLIEST PICKGUARD I"VE EVER SEEN AND SAID
IF I BOUGHT ONE THAT WOULD BE THE FIRST THING TO GO
.
>bound f holes._ TO HIDE JUST HOW THIN THE TOP REALLY IS
>vine headstock inlay.-TO IMPLY A KINSHIP TO THE CLASSIC AND CLASSY EPIPHONES
OF THE 30'S 40'S 50's AND 60'S
>
>.. all these things are only available on the epiphone....NO.. ON THE GIBSON COMPARABLE MODEL TO THE SHERATON,
THE ES-355 ALL OF THOSE FEATURES ARE PRESENT AS WELL AS A STEREO
OUTPUT CIRCUIT
>coming in and saying a guitar with these finely executed extra
WHAT TOTAL HORSESHIT! YOU HAVE A FUCKING CHEAP PIECE OF KOREAN SHIT
PRETENDING AS YOU ARE TO BE OF GENUINE MUSICAL VALUE.
>features IN NO WAY is comperable to or looks as good as a gibson is a THERE YOU SAID IT YOU FUCKING IDIOT.
..LET"S SEE HOW MANY COME AND AGREES WITH WHO
>bit of obvious idiocy to every single person reading this post, and
>the third strong point in which it is shown you blather and say not a
I CAN TELL YOU MORE ABOUT THE HISTORY OF EPIPHONE, THE CONSTRUCTION
OF GUITARS AND HOW TO DETERMINE QUALITY AND VALUE MORE THAN YOU CAN
EVER IMAGINE YOU POSING PRETENDER
>fucking thing.
>And if you don't stop chewing my slippers you'll be chained up behind
>the garage tonight.
>
>
>
>>I can agree that if they can get their quality up higher they will be
>>a good value in the under $800 range competing against Samick HF650's
>>(your guitar with a different headstock)
>
>They are already a good value. That you don't include that as a given,
>just amazes me. But why you raise the value range from the 600.00 they
>sell for, to 800.00 is even more of a surprise.
UNDER $800 YOU FUCKING IDIOT....AND THAT WAS SO I COULD FIND SOMEONE
MAKING SOMETHING THAT CHEAP...MOST COMPANIES DON"T BOTHER WITH SUCH
LOW GRADE INSTRUMENTS...THEY CONTRACT THEM OFF TO BE MADE WHERE LABOR
IS CHEAP AND THEY"RE MADE MOSTLY PRE-FAB BY MACHINES SINCE THERE ISN"T
A LOT OF CRAFTSMANSHIP INVOLVED ANY WAY BUT YOU OWN ONE OF THOSE
PIECES OF SHIT SO YOU KNOW THAT AND I ALSO KNOW YOU'D DIE TO HAVE A
REAL ES-335 OR ELSE YOU WOULDN'T BE TRYING SO HARD TO MAKE YOUR
WANNABE INTO ONE
>It seems you not only don't know how to shop, you don't know where.
ONE OF MY BEST FRIENDS OWNS A GIBSON DEALERSHIP YOU ASSHOLE I GET THEM
FOR 55% OFF LIST.... THAT EPI TRASH FOR 60%
>Stick around and keeps your ears up, Ruff, you'll benefit.
>
>I haven't played the Samick. And the fact is, you don't find them very
>often.NO BECAUSE MOST DEALERS DON"T WANT TO TAKE A CHANCE WITH THAT
CHEAP KOREAN BULLSHIT AND THE SAMICK DOESN"T
HAVE THAT ALL IMPORTANT PRODUCT IDENTIFICATION OF A ONCE REPUTABLE
INSTRUMENT
>Furthermore, the sheraton has nothing to hide it's head about in it's
>price range.. which is 600.00 ...IT "LISTS" FOR $1049 AT 40 % IT'S AROUND $600 WHICH IS ABOUT WHAT IT's WORTHwith lifetime warranty and hardshell
>case. Availability is always a factor, and so is Gibsons warranty,
>taken care of right here in the USA.AND IT's A DAMN GOOD THING SINCE THEY'RE SO SHODDY
COMING FROM THE FACTORY
>Also, there are some differences beyond cosmetic between these two
>models as well.
>
>> or a Washburn HB-35 (a much
>
>
>I've not seen a washburn of any stripe I'd have shoved up my ass.
>I have seen scads of them sold as factory seconds, and know that many
>develop problems sold as firsts, and I also have seen a good many of
>Washburns products on the shelf and seeming to have a hard time
>surviving just hanging there, so if you want to go with Washburn... be
>my guest. I however, returned two Washburns listing in the 1200.00
>range and I'll be sticking with my epiphone.
>OF COURSE YOU WILL YOU CHEAP BASTARD YOU WOULDN"T WANT
ONE OF THE BEST GUITAR ACCORDING TO GUITAR PLAYER MAGAZINE UNDER $1000
STREET PRICE IF YOU HAD TO PAY A HUNDRED BUCKS MORE.
>>better choice than the Sheraton in some people's opinion)
>
>some people are more trusting than others. I am not like that.
NO YOU"RE JUST AN IGNORANT FUCKING ASSHOLE THAT HASN"T BOTHERED TO
LEARN ANYTHING EXCEPT THE EASY STUFF LIKE THAT ONCE UPON A TIME
EPIPHONE WAS A GOOD BRAND...IT'S NOT A MATTER OF TRUST IT'S A MATTER
OF USING YOUR COGNITIVE ABILITIES OH EXCUSE ME.. I'D FORGOTTEN THAT
YOU DON'T HAVE ANY
>I don't believe them and won't until I can see several HB35s.
>Strangely, I keep running into epiphones instead.
>
>>the Hohner
>>HS3S
>
>Never saw a hohner I ever liked either. Never heard one mentioned in
>here either.
>On the other hand, the joint is popping with epi owners.
>Hmmmm.
>
>>and the Aria 5TA62. These are the guitars that are comparable to
>>the Epiphone Sheratons, Dots and Rivieras..
>
>
>Never heard of that one either. Or ever heard of anyone bothering to
>compare it to anything. I have seen arias, but they didn't compare to
>epis. Still, I haven't seen them all.
>
>>not the ES-335 or even the
>>Heritage H535
>
>In a way, you are right. The Epis compare much better to the lesser
>guitars. However, you seem to be leaping from your opinion, and again,
>it's just that Fido, nothing more, to a conclusion which as yet is
>unsupported. Let's all move forward now to where you make your final
>trip.
>
>>and if you're smart you'll save your money, sell your Epiphone on eBay
>>(you should be able to get $500 for it easy there)
>
>Why would I sell it?
>According to your 500.00 price, by the way.. I'll be making 75.00.\
>That's because I do know how and where to shop LIKE I SAID SLICK I GET 'EM AT DEALER COST I humbly submit.
>And though it's tempting to pick up a few bucks, >>>>>>> NO THE RESALE ON THEM IS SHIT
ACTUALLY eBAY IS FULL OF SMUCKS LIKE YOU TRYING TO UNLOAD THAT
GARBAGE
I, like Keb Mo and
>John Lee HookerTHEN YOU"D BETTER BUY A '67, and others, am going to keep my sheraton.
>WHICH IS GOOD CONSIDERING YOUR PLAYING LEVEL PRECLUDES
ANY ADVANTAGE FROM OWNING A QUALITY INSTRUMENT
>> and buy yourself a
>>Heritage H535..Yes, I've seen people on stage with Epiphones and my
>>first thought isn't "wow that guy is a pro and he plays an Epiphone!"
>
>And your second thought was, I wonder how come I think I'm smarter
>than he is.. right?NO MY SECOND THOUGHT IS THE FUCK HEAD MUST HAVE LISTENED
TO THAT OTHER FUCK HEAD AND BOUGHT THAT TRASH
>
>>my thought is "wow...that guys is a pro and he plays an Epiphone?"
>
> It sounds like a personal problem, to me.
> Your stuck sitting there thinking your opinion counts for more
IT COUNTS FOR MORE THAN YOURS BECAUSE IT'S BASED IN REASON
AND NOT FANTASY OF WISHING WHAT YOU HAVE IS MORE THAN WHAT IT IS
>somehow, you think you are right and others are wrong, and in every
>way! That's what is really incredible.
> The fact is, it's just your opinion. It certainly cannot carry any
>more wieght than you gather in consonance in here
I'M DYING TO SEE THE OTHER RESPONSES FROM PEOPLE WHO OWN REAL GUITARS.
> And it can't overwhelm the wieght of so many people in here who
>disagree.
ALL THE LOSERS WHO WASTED THEIR MONEY ON KOREAN TRASH..
> I could have gone over every single aspect of the Epiphone/Gibson
>argument, in detail, and shown clearly that there is a choice to be
>made between these guitars
YES TAKE THE GIBSON
. Especially interesting points given the
>vast difference in their prices.ANYTIME YOU FEEL YOU HAVE A VALID ARGUMENT BEYOND
WHAT YOU WISH WERE TRUE I'D LOVE TO HEAR IT
> And even Polfus would sink to agreeing with me that an epiphone is
>a worthwhile lifetime investment in a guitar. not a guitar market
>investment, a player, a keeper, a guitar you could keep as long as you
>like, with every degree of pride your playing and your enjoyment alone
>can provide. OR AT LEAST ONE YOU KEEP UNTIL YOU CAN AFFORD A GROWN UP GUITAR
> Not to mention that it's an instrument which has already taken the
>stage in the hands of many many players at all levels and given
>thousands of people great pleasure.
BULLSHIT THE ONLY PEOPLE THAT USE THEM ON STAGE ARE BUSHLEAGUERS AND
ENDORSEES
I've made this as short as I can while still affording myself the
>indulgence of the .. er.. rolled up newspaper.. while clarifying what
>I see as weak arguments from you.
> I've tried to let 'famous' players and satisfied owners---and by
>the way, most of these people shopped by comparing the epi to the
>gibson, aint that a coinky dink? yet you've ignored that---speak with
>me.COMPARING WHAT THEY COULD AFFORD...SHIT TRAILER PARK RENT AIN'T CHEAP
YOUR FRIENDS HAVE TO WATCH THEIR PENNIES
> No matter that professional 'stars' use epis, no matter that
>working pros use them, no matter that someone who started playing in
>the mid 60s THE GUITARS OF THE 60'S ARE NOT THE ONES OF TODAY YOU THICK SOD
uses them, no matter that players who are just beginning
>and intermediate players use them, you know better.
> You know more about wood, you know more about what looks good, you
>know more about tone.
>
>Here's a biscuit. go play.
>Twang!...a sound you get when you don't have TONE !!
>RE:
>>Just my nickel's worth. No offence intended.
>None taken, and none sent your way.
>The above is just my way of making a few jokes. It's fun to play the
>old crank and all.
>Happy picking.
>
>
>>Gregzy
>
>COME ON GIBSON OWNERS I KNOW YOU'RE OUT THERE HELP ME OUT HERE
>/-)
>
GREGZY
gre...@hotmail.com
wrote:
>At one of the leading Gibson dealers in my area..owned by one of my best friends.
I can buy a new ES-335 for under $1700
. My argument isn't that the
Epi is so dramatically inferior to itself but it isn't the same realm
of guitar as the ES-335..and yes...Loose pots, broken swtches, cracked
nuts, incorrect wiring, gaps in the neck joint and none were marked
seconds..actually one marked "2" was one of the best ones and it was
probably a second due to a black smudge in the finish that actually
gave it a bit of character. I agree that the Epiphone has a valid
market but I contend that it is not on an equal basis with The Gibson
even taking into consideration the difference in price
TONE !!!!
Gregzy
gre...@hotmail.com
>Hi- Just thought I would throw my opinion in... I just bought a new
>epi dot, and it plays geat. Sure I would have wanted a gibson, but are
>they $1800 dollars better? I'm not sure about that. I play for a
>living, and my epi brings home the dough and makes just as much music
>as a Gibson would....fat tone....good intonation...good pickups. Are
>you a good player? You can make the epi work VERY easily....or are you
>a guitar collector who likes to talk about plastic this and bone that
>and finish and all the other stuff that people like to complain about
>when they can't play? No slam here, but I've seen it before....just my
>2 cents.
32 years...18 years full time pro.. retired for 9 years.and though I'm
a hack player..I do know my pentatonics from my mixolydians and given
the right atmosphere can even play chords and licks using my pinkie
and yes I collect guitars...for enjoyment and pleasure..My question
and argument isn't a slam at Epi owners..it's the idea that they are
identical...if the difference was only say $300 would you pay more for
a Gibson? If the Dot works for you I think it's great and I appreciate
and understand your position but I also don't have you in my face
telling me I'm a butt munch for saying there's a difference. The main
problem with the Epi was microphonic pups everything else was
fixable..I have an old set of PAFs I was going to pop in but the gutar
didn't seem worth it. My friend owns the shop and has sent almost all
of them back I also get a very sizeable discount so I may still buy
one...just don't tell Pat..I do my own set ups and changing the pups
isn't anything (though not fun on a semi-acoustic without back
access).
Gregzy
gre...@hotmail.com
Let me correct that the pickups I was going to use were early patent
number pickups..If someine thinks I have some paf's lying around my
mailbox will be flooded
TONE !!!!
Gregzy
Mike Hartigan
> The density of the bridge on the Epiphone gives it a thin,
> vapid quality in comparison to a tune-o-matic
I know you're not addressing me, but my Epi Sheraton II does, indeed,
have a tune-o-matic bridge. As did my Gibson ES-335. As does my Epi
Les Paul Custom. Nothing vapid about it.
> ..but if they hadn't
> spent so much money putting gold plated glitz on everything maybe they
> could have afforded to put decent hardware on them.
But they do put decent hardware on them. Or at least they did on mine,
and, I suspect, on Patrick's. The quality of the switches, pots, jacks,
bridge, tuners, etc. leaves nothing to be desired. One can't help but
wonder what the 2 dozen or so Epiphone Sheraton II's you saw really
were. Your bridge comment above lends serious doubt as to your
familiarity with the subject.
> that came from my direct experience with a blond Epiphone Sheraton I
> could have bought new for under $500...I told you I can get these
> things cheap and was going to. The finish was plastic looking and
> feeling..poly finishes don't warm up after playing them for a while
> like lacquer does..The tone was thin..as I said I own an older Riviera
> and thought a Sheraton would be cool if it was even close...but it
> wasn't...then my friend said I could get a DOT really cheap (under
> $400) since I was going to put in a set of mid-60's Patent number
> stickered Gibson humbuckers and put on Gibson Kluson machine heads
> from the same era..all I was looking for was the body and neck..but
> when I FELT the guitar I then didn't feel I wanted to waste such great
> hardware and electronics on a guitar that wasn't worth it when the
> pots and the switch was so cheesy and the finish did nothing for me.
Again, what you saw is not typical. Unless they've changed in the past
year or so.
> very different qualities of laminated woods.. the top veneer of a
> ES-335 is twice as thick and is far more higher quality and far more
> figured than the maple plywood used in the lesser instruments
Now I know we're talking about different instruments. In a previous
post, I cited the fact that my Gibson ES-335 was virtually identical to
my Epiphone Sheraton II in terms of dimensions, feel, and build quality.
This includes the thickness of the top. When you say that the Gibson's
tops is 'twice as thick' as the Epi's, then you've removed all doubt
(not to mention your mischaracterization of the bridge).
> [...]
> so you directed some other poor sap to go buy one of these pieces of
> junk to satisfy your ego by having someone else share the exquisite
> pleasure of owning a guitar made in deplorable conditions by
> underpaid, economically and politically oppressed workers
While this is a noble sentiment, what in the world does this have to do
with the quality of the product??!??! Have we finally come to the whole
point of this discussion?
> ..oh wait
> you didn't buy one made in Nashville (hello Ted..that was for
> you)..but did you give him any other options except Pat's opinion
> based upon what Pat owns and therefore what must be the best choice?
> If someone asks me for a recommendation I always try to give them at
> least 3 choices in their price range. And whatever I see as the best
> buy without regard to brand loyalty and not even you have that because
> you own a Samick and push Epiphone and they haven't made Epiphone
> guitars since the early 80's and that was only for a year or
> so..before that it was 1969 .
You're beginning to sound bitter at having bought an overpriced
Sheraton clone, only to find out that you could have gotten the real
thing much cheaper. We've seen this before in these newsgroups. This
thread is suddenly becoming predictable.
> [...]
> Ever see a flamed out ES335?. that's gorgeous..have you ever played
> an ES-335?
I owned and played a lovely cherry red ES-335. It was gorgeous, in an
understated sort of way. My sunburst Sheraton still looks better, and
causes me to lose consciousness at about the same rate as the Gibson.
> >I've not seen a bad one ever.
> >I just got two more emails from one guy who bought an epi SG and and
> >Epi sheraton, and another guy who bought a riviera and a sheraton.
> >Both were blown away by the finishes. (hello Jim and Joe)
> I guess you're amassing an Epihone fan club. Now I'd be interested to
> know what the levels of playing experience of these people have and
> what other guitars they've owned. I have a feeling the Epiphones are
> popular with those who want to look like they own a quality guitar and
> that's fine if appearence is their objective. I also have a feeling
> we're talking about amateurs with little experience..which isn't to
> put anyone down..Epiphones in some cases are the perfect guitar for
> those starting out or on a tight budget but when they buy some glitzed
> up thing and the trade off is good hardware and electronics then it's
> a bad purchase and they need to re-think their thinking .
Deja vu, all over again! Especially the parts about 'those starting
out'.
[Then the shouting, cussing, and name calling started and I lost all
interest]
--
+-------------------------------------///--------------------------+
| | /// |
| Now that that's settled, can | Mike Hartigan |
| we proceed with lunch? \\\| hartigan at enteract.dot.com |
| \\\/// |
+-------------------------------\\\/-------------------------------+
paul brecht
war.
I've been privelidged to be able to make certain contacts in my pro
days. I used to have product indorsements that would allow me to get into
the NAMM show. (National Association of Music Merchants) While there a few
years back, right after Gibson released the "Epi" line, I talked to one of
the Gibson reps. He told me the deal with the "Epi". While we were looking
at an acoustic guitar, he pointed to the little plate that covers the truss
rod screw. He then went on to say "that was the only thing Gibson on the
whole instrument"
You see Epiphone was going under when Gibson bought their name. Gibson
had started to lose some of the market as well, because of the increase of
price. The most common sale at a guitar store averages about $200, since
most beginning guitarists mothers buy little Jr. what is in their
"affordable" range. Most of the bigger companies started to lose their edge.
So Gibson decided to make a lower budget line of guitars. (hence the Epi)
Gibson has a justifiable response to a changing market. If people want
cheap, we'll make cheap. (& at the same time hike up the prices on the
Gibson line 300-400%) They tried to do this w/ the Heritage line, but
couldn't get the overhead down far enough to meet the above marketing need.
(but they hike up the price of the regular line then too!!!)
With all this tidbit of factual info said, I will say that for the buck,
(in the present market)the Epi is a good deal. I personally wouldn't buy
one, but that's me. When I started playing you could get a Les Paul for
under $700. I don't necessarily think that any of the guitars that are made
today are worth their face value. IMHO a Gibson Les Paul is worth $700 & a
Epi is worth $200. I would have never considered paying close to $1000 for a
Strat. I bought my current American Strat + for $700+ & sheesh!!! when I
first started playing they were so much cheaper.
If you have an Epi' & are happy GOOD!!! If you don't have one & don't
want one GOOD!!! If you have a Gibson & are happy, well you know where I'm
going w/ this.
Patrick F. Coleman
well I'm happy you're happy I'm happy.
>>>>you must have one exceptional Epiphone there Pat because I've looked at dozens
>>>of them and was even willing to buy one if it could have only met only
>>>a moderately demanding criteria of expected performance.
>>The ones I played including the one I ordered were in my opinion
>felt cheap. there were loose knobs and the output jack was loose. I've
>played hundreds of guitars over the 32 years or so I've been playing.
>I own over 20 guitars currently and I think by now I can assess
>"cheap" within a reasonable degree
I just played a gibson es335 circa 1972 today.. it's neck was clubby,
not near as fast as mine. It's top was nearly flat, none of the really
nice archtop carving mine had. It's inlays were block, but had lots of
filler around them, unlike mine.
I've been playing longer than you. I've owned top of the line guitars
aplenty.
Your version of cheap is snobbery, nothing more.
>>That would be 'accepted' performance.
>>To say that an epiphone sheraton does not meet a moderate demand of
>>performance is absurd with no comparison made at all.
>the comparison was made dozens of times..
not here. not reasonably. not effectively.
>.I have a friend who is a
>Gibson/Epiphone dealer. I have access to every model made.. I've
>played ES-335's since the 70's..I own a '67 RIviera..Union made in
>Kalamazoo. The Sheraton doesn't feel or sound like any of them..what
>comparison do you want? I was going to buy one of the bleeding things
>just to have one because everyone did say they were a "Good Value"
>not that they were an alternative for a 335..Even
fine. but that's your opinion and one that isn't shared here, by the
guitar magazine reviewers and by professional players.
One would think you'd have sense enough to reduce your opinion to it's
natural and actual size in this regard, but apparently you wont.
>>Four years of ownership and the number of email I have, on file, of
>>happy buyers is what I bring to that argument.
>why on earth would you keep a file of happy owners?
I keep a large file of all my email. Not that it's any business of
yours.
> to further
>convince yourself that your guitar is something more than it is?
Again with the stoopid comments.
You'll have to do better than that.
>>But what epi brings is far more important.
>>On my guitar the inlays and binding are excellent, all the
>putting inlays and fluff on a guitar at that level is a waste.They
>should have spent the money on decent electronics and tuning machines
>rather than jazzing it up to sell on its visual appeal to people more
>concerned with image than substance
Again.. that's your opinion.. and by the way.. oh venerated blind man
who has access to all the epis ever dreamed of.. haven't you noticed
they have the dot plain jane already?
Are you saying there should be only one! LOL
And as far as your opinion of fancy inlays goes you are really a goof.
When you run gibson you can do it your way, until then I'm satisfied
and happy that epiphone offers some choice as to the cosmetics.
>>craftsmanship is well done. The materials have held up with no
>>problems right down to the gold plate.
>The gold plate is concealing the low quality machine heads and
>bridge..all you see is the gold plate...not the cheesy tuners and
>bridge
You idiot. I've been playing since 1963. You think I can't see a tuner
for the plate?
the plate hides nothing, if it could, chrome would do the same.
You are foolish beyond words.
>>The playability is so constant, and on a guitar with action as low as
>>I need it, we are talking about keeping a sharp eye, I'm amazed.
>It doesn't seem to take much to amaze you and low action isn't a
>qualification of quality..I keep most of my guitars at medium to
>almost high action on the acoustic I use for fingerpicking
Asshead. The ability to set the action where you want most certainly
is a qualification of quality.
and what the hell does anyone in here care how you like yours?
I fingerpick my epi by the way.. and don't have to compromise the
action by lowering it to make up for shitty technique.
:-)
>>The sound is what you make of it. That's a given on epiphones. The
>>acoustic tones can be as good, or better than many gibsons
> I think you're stretching it..and at best this is a subjective
>argument and yet more convincing of yourself.
that's a shitty sentence, first off.
And secondly, I played a gibson just today.. horrid.
I've played a friends vintage mint cond. es335 and my sheraton has
more acoustic stuff on it clearly.
And others I've owned and played were not as good as my epi. some were
as good some were better.
live with it.
>I completely disagree
>that the Epiphone in any way comes close to the tone of an ES-335.
well you are wrong.
>This is more Pat's wishful thinking because fate dealt him a Korean
>Epiphone.
Never think I can't afford a much more expensive guitar, mr. psycho
mind and bank statement reader.
god you're an idiot.
Lacking any substance you immediately attack on matters you know
nothing about
>The density of the bridge on the Epiphone gives it a thin,
>vapid quality in comparison to a tune-o-matic.
I thought that vapid quality was emanating from your ass.
again.. you don't know what you're talking about.
but if they hadn't
>spent so much money putting gold plated glitz on everything maybe they
>could have afforded to put decent hardware on them.
and then you repeat a childish remark. hoping to score some points
with the special education set, I guess.
boooooring.
>, as well as
>>worse, of course, and the electric sounds are easily swapped for. No
>>problem.
>>That's just the obvious things you are attempting to ignore.
>>I'm ignoring nothing ..I've bought and sold guitars for 30 years..I consider everything
>I've seen everything.
Well you sure suck at it.
>>>Unfortunately they all were cheap looking , cheaply made, dipped in
>>>plastic, sad , tone-less reminiscenses of a once great guitar.
>>
>>That's funny... none of the epiphone sheratons I've ever seen or have
>>heard reports on come anywhere near close to your description.
>that came from my direct experience with a blond Epiphone Sheraton I
>could have bought new for under $500...I told you I can get these
>things cheap and was going to.
I don't bellieve anything you say.
You insisted the guitars were in the 800.00 range, when they are
available for 600.00 all over, now you claim to be able to get one for
500.00.. you seem like more and more the liar as this goes on.
> The finish was plastic looking and
>feeling..poly finishes don't warm up after playing them for a while
>like lacquer does..
plastic looking is your opinion... I can buff a lacquer to a shine
too, you know.
dimwit.
and as to the warming up jazz.. who cares?
>The tone was thin..as I said I own an older Riviera
>and thought a Sheraton would be cool if it was even close...but it
>wasn't...then my friend said I could get a DOT really cheap (under
>$400)
459.00 is the lowest price I've found on the dot.
care to name your store?
>since I was going to put in a set of mid-60's Patent number
>stickered Gibson humbuckers and put on Gibson Kluson machine heads
>from the same era..all I was looking for was the body and neck..but
>when I FELT the guitar I then didn't feel I wanted to waste such great
>hardware and electronics on a guitar that wasn't worth it when the
>pots and the switch was so cheesy and the finish did nothing for me.
what horseshit. pure excrement.
>>I might believe you except that the above is as sure an exaggeration
>>as I've ever seen in my life.
>>
>>
>>> I think
>>>you're very lucky being so happy with the instrument you have but I
>>>disagree with you about finding the Epiphone vastly prettier..that's
>>>only true if you prefer gun sprayed poly plastic over hand rubbed lacquer.
>>
>>No... you have a hard-on for poly, apparently.
>>I think the argument that a lacquer looks any better is definately
>>personal taste entirely, and I know damn well that the amount of tonal
>>property that finish might have is not going to have any effect on
>>either a sheraton or an es335 due to the fact that they are both made
>>entirely of laminated woods.
>very different qualities of laminated woods.. the top veneer of a
>ES-335 is twice as thick and is far more higher quality and far more
>figured than the maple plywood used in the lesser instruments
simply not true.
...the
>"hard on for lacquer was as I explained above...it feels better
to you perhaps.
..it
>has nothing to do with tonal characteristics..
yes it does.
>poly is cheap..cheap
>feeling and cheap looking (gloss without depth) and cheap to spray gun
>on and hence why it's used on cheap guitars
it probably is inexpensive compared to a longer more difficult
process..but any finish can be given a french polish look. and again..
your complaint about the finishes is just your opinion.
>>Also, the sunburst finish on the epi sheraton gets good remarks
>>constantly, the only black model I've heard described, since I haven't
>>seen one, was greatly appreciated by the gentleman who not only looked
>>at them at my urging, but drove to a store I recommended to buy the
>>thing.
>so you directed some other poor sap to go buy one of these pieces of
>junk to satisfy your ego
I have to tell you.. it's a good thing we're not in person.
I'm getting really tired of your stoopid claim that I'd go around
supporting these guitars just because I own one.
Nobody who's talked to me in the years I've been here has been as big
a loudmouth as you.
> by having someone else share the exquisite
>pleasure of owning a guitar made in deplorable conditions by
>underpaid, economically and politically oppressed workers
this does not describe Korea, but it certainly describes your petty
attitude. thanks for showing us.
..oh wait
>you didn't buy one made in Nashville (hello Ted..that was for
>you)..but did you give him any other options except Pat's opinion
>based upon what Pat owns and therefore what must be the best choice?
that's unreadable. you should take your doggie prozac and go take a
nap.
>If someone asks me for a recommendation I always try to give them at
>least 3 choices in their price range. And whatever I see as the best
>buy without regard to brand loyalty and not even you have that because
>you own a Samick and push Epiphone and they haven't made Epiphone
>guitars since the early 80's and that was only for a year or
>so..before that it was 1969 .
Again you are .. let's see.. wrong, wrong and wrong.
>>The white one has one current owner who was in here for a time, and
>>another who upgraded to a Heritage.
>Smart man with the Heritage..I think I've met the guy with the pearl
>white one..doesn't seem very bright at all
why should he be happy with anything if he knows you?
> Both were quite happy with the
>>guitars looks.
>And that seems to be what matters since I don't think they're
>listening to them
Tell that to Keb Mo next time you see him, will you shit brain?
>>The natural finish is georgeous.
>very subjective since the one I considered was ok but nothing special
>Ever see a flamed out ES335?. that's gorgeous..have you ever played
>an ES-335?
yes. and owned them.
>>I've not seen a bad one ever.
>>I just got two more emails from one guy who bought an epi SG and and
>>Epi sheraton, and another guy who bought a riviera and a sheraton.
>>Both were blown away by the finishes. (hello Jim and Joe)
>I guess you're amassing an Epihone fan club.
I guess you're still trying to be witty.
Now I'd be interested to
>know what the levels of playing experience of these people have and
>what other guitars they've owned.
Oh I see. If someone can't outplay you, they can't know what a good
guitar is, eh?
fuck off.
I have a feeling the Epiphones are
>popular with those who want to look like they own a quality guitar and
>that's fine if appearence is their objective.
you are soooo stoopid.
I also have a feeling
>we're talking about amateurs with little experience..which isn't to
>put anyone down.
I'm no amatuer. Neither are some of the other owners.
How many times do I have to point to the famous players here before
you get a clue?
.Epiphones in some cases are the perfect guitar for
>those starting out or on a tight budget but when they buy some glitzed
>up thing and the trade off is good hardware and electronics then it's
>a bad purchase and they need to re-think their thinking .
Wrong. and not worth the time to correct it.
I find the
>finishes to look cheap so why don't you put my comments in your file
>too since I am an Epiphone owner too and have been since 1969 and I've
>had a lot more guitars to compare them to.
because you are too much of a dick.. I have to trim the ends you know.
keep out the radicals.
>So, in the end, although you have a preference, it is just an opinion,
>>and you tend to state these things as perfect facts, true across the
>>board.
>I state things based upon empirical observation..without any emotional
>connection or any attempt to establish my choices as valid
oh bullshit. your posts on this matter are rife with emotional
content, and lack empircal strength entirely.
..I'm not
>running around asking people for their opinions on my Gibson Les Pauls
>or my Gibson 335 or my Gibson SJ-200 or my Gibson SG Standard or my
>Martins or my Fender AMERICAN STANDARD Strats..or my '62 American made
>Fender Strat or my American made Riviera or my half dozen imported
>guitars because with the exception of the imports I don't have to. I
>tell someone.."Yeah, I have an '87 blond dotneck reissue with moderate
>flame and early "60's PAF's" they know what I have and it needs no
>further qualification or validation..and there'll be those that say
>"the PAF's can have low output and the neck is too big I agree and
>say "yeah, but the trade off is tone and definition". and I prefer a
>wider , flatter neck..and I know they're not for everyone"..not that
>the nickel hardware looks good though and the inlays are beautiful.
you sound like a typical arrogant shit.
look at all my guitars.. wheee..
big deal. make sense when you talk instead of trying to brag.
>>That won't fly in here.
>OH? are you some way anointed here that your opinions are more valid?
No. we are all annointed. People here have more sense than to listen
to much of your obviously snotty and poorly stated opinions.
>>>I can understand how you'd like for your guitar to go up
>>>against great instruments and someway be comparable but the basis of
>>>your comparisons are flawed.
>>
>>This is bullshit of the highest order.
>>In the first place I can put a squier fender up against great
>>instruments and have it come away comperable
>.If you believe that you're an idiot Pat
hey stoopid.. I can also compare a cheese box to ferarri....
comparison by your OWN POST had no other criteria than the words
definition.. so wake up.
..you own a cheap guitar that
>you spend all this time trying to validate as being a professional
>quality instrument.
I do not try to validate it.
you again make up some shit and hurl it, hoping it will stick.
bad job, junior.
>I conceed that it's not a bad value for the money
>but you want it to be even close to something it simply isn't.
In your opinion, which you poorly supported.
>>You are also, rudely and without reason, intimating that I'd lie or
>>decieve either myself or others in order to make my guitar look good,
>>or to make myself feel better about owning it.
>no, I've just watched for months as you sold everyone in this NG Pat's
>take on the Korean's Epiphones and now after playing many of them and
>examining them for my own use I find them to be inferior.
and since I have agreement in here.. and by the way, that's so sweet
of you to watch me for months... do you want a little kissy? ... it's
not just Pats opinion, is it?
But you don't like to talk about the other people except to try and
say you can outplay them or you own more guitars than they do.
you are a shit, pal. really.
.and still
>Pat is finding others to back up his belief that he owns a worthy
>guitar..and who does he find to back him up? others who own the same
>cheesy guitars..
LOL
It would be pretty silly of me to ask people who own fenders if they
like their epis, wouldn't it?
I don't look for back up, that's for cops.
I just told you what I've heard from other owners in here and you
can't handle it.
yeah about that Epiphone SG? I bought one for a
>friend's then 10 year old son as his first guitar two Christmases ago
>and it found its market with that one..and before I sent it to Britain
>I compared it next to my '68 SG Standard and all I can say is
>"hahahahahaha" but that along with his 15 watt Park amp it has made a
>young kid really happy. Maybe he'll want to be in your Epiphone fan
>club too.
On the other hand.... what's the price difference?
Comparing guitars requires you to ask yourself something..
how many songs were recorded on danelectros? one of the cheapest
guitars ever made?
How many songs were recorded on instruments not in the high price
category? too many to justify that collection of brag art you own, eh?
you sir, are all $$$ and no brains.
>>Let me just say that in person, I'd be in your face over that,
>YOU DON'T HAVE THE BALLS TO GET IN MY FACE BECAUSE YOU KNOW I KNOW
>MORE THAN YOU AND WOULD EAT YOU ALIVE AND THEN SHIT YOU OUT BURYING
>THE PILES WITH THAT GUITAT OF YOURS
Luverne, Minnesota.
gimme a call.
> but for
>>now, consider rephrasing the above to something less condescending
>>until you have something to back it up.
>I'll rephrase it like this..If wishing made it so you'd have a worthy
>guitar or at least the guitar you'd like to think you have...as it
>stand you have a gold plated wanna be with a plastic finish and cheesy
>pickups but given that you find these guitars acceptable your level of
>proficency is probably such that you aren't able to tell the
>differences. I'm not going to continue this childish my bike is
>shinier than your bike nonsense. One last time I will say this
>"The Korean Epiphones are in some cases not a bad value for the money.
>However they do have poly plastic finishes that some people may
>perceive as cheap.
yeah dumbasses.
>Their machine heads are very cheap
no they aren't mine are fine. tune well, fine tune well. look great.
and should be
>replaced as should the bridge.
nope. mine is fine. not a problem.
You have to be careful when replacing
>the bridges because Gibson made sure that the tune-o-matic would not
>directly replace.(think of why a company would do that to one of its
>subsideraries).
horseshit... there are so many aftermarket parts that fit the epi it
stinks.
liar.
> Your best bet would be re-aligning and re-installing
>the tail piece and bridge posts bushings and studs and replacing with
>a Gibson Nashville Style Tune-o-matic . When replacing the machine
>heads they will have to be reamed to fit the higher quality
bullshit.
>after-market tuners probably to 3/8" if you intend on using the
>Gibson-like Shaller M-6's..
why use ones that don't fit when you have scads to choose from?
because it makes you seem to know what the fuck you're talking about?
be very careful as the necks and headstocks
>are laminated and will split if not carefully done.
LOL>. that's the hugest lie I ever heard.
LOL..
The pickups are
>also of low quality but if replaced with standard GIBSON Humbuckers
>the pickguard may not be able to be used due to the size difference
more horseshit.
>and you'll also need to replace the bezels for the same reason.
more horseshit.
You
>should also replace the 2p3t switch with a Switchcraft switch of the
>same type...
why? nothing wrong with mine.
and the volume and tone pots replaced with Allen-Bradley
>500k pots..also adding a .020 mf capacitor between each set of control
>pots will increase the highs and the rolloff..almost non-existent from
>the factory..the only problem is doing this on a semi-acoustic guitar
>without access plates is going to be more fun than you ever imagined
easy for me. but then, I'm not a moron!
>My only objective in any of this was to state that in no stretch of
>the imagination could the Epiphone imports be considered an equal on
>the basis of sound quality, quality of components, workmanship.
>quality of appearence or any other criteria to the Gibson ES-335 and
>that for the price they were reasonably good instruments but my
>personal experience found them to be severely lacking in quality, not
>what I feel is an aesthetically pleasing either visually or aurally.
>I don't wish to further discuss this with Pat unless he wants to do it
>entirely on a technical basis without the emotion of validating his
>ownership choices.
oh horseshit... you're the one who was forced to back up his idiotic
complaints.. and you've still failed to do so,.
If anyone would care to tell me that I'm full of
>shit
you're full of shit.
> and that the Epiphones are equal to the Gibson ES-335
they compare quite well, thank you.
I'd love
>to hear your reasoning and rationale
why you wouldn't listen anyway.
...and because the mother of
>whatever fretboard markers are prettier isn't a reason.
sure it's a reason. there's a reason people go for mother of pearl and
genuine abalone. because it's good.
..I'd also like
>to hear comments from ES-335 owners..come on guys..I'm out here
>fighting that Korean thing alone
you're fighting it alone because you're fighting the wrong fight.
No one says the epi is as good as the gibson.. what's being said is
they compare well, they represent a good value, a good guitar, YOU'RE
the one making the initial exaggeration in the first place
stooopid.
.any tobacco sunburst owners unhappy
>with their "yellowy finish?..any other Blondie owners think their
>flame is less attractive than cabinet plywood?...I'll be watching for
>further reaction and I swear I didn't mean this as a troll but damn it
>I've listened to Pat spew this nonsense for months.
uh huh.
.went and checked
>it out for myself and discovered that ther is no way an Epiphone can
>stand against an ES-335
yes there is.
> and any thoughts otherwise is wishful thinking
>on their owners part.
no it isn't.
and one last time I will also say that the
>Epiphones do have a valid purpose and market but it isn't as
>competition to any ES-335's
sure it is.
>> For the simple fact that your sentence has no other criteria and
>>they are both guitars.. ie: comperable, I win by default.
>you win shit...you're a poser..get a grown up guitar and come to the
>table with something besides Korean junk
fuck you butt wipe.
and we'll discuss quality and
>subtle sonic differences and how if wishing made it so they'd be a lot
>more porno film actors.
well you should certainly get the role of dick.
>>However, I shall now proceed to educate your pup ass in a not too kind
>>manner, since you've seen fit to attempt to bite my ear while I was
>>laying here in front of the fire snoozing peacefully.
>FUCK YOU AND YOUR PUNK IGNORANT ASS
Luverne minnesota. son.
>>>You're out of your league going up
>>>against something as venerable as the Gibson ES-335 with your guitar .
blah blah
>>Here again we have a statement that makes no sense.
>Makes no sense? YOU ARE OUT OF YOUR LEAGUE WITH YOUR KOREAN EPIPHONE
>IN THE REALM OF ES-335'S ...WHAT DOESN'T MAKE SENSE EXCEPT YOUR
>REFUSAL TO ACCEPT THIS CLEAR AND PRESENT FACT?
can't read too well, can you?
>>How can it? It has no foundation.
>THE FOUNDATION IS THE EMPIRICAL COMPARISON
wrong.. and shouting won't change the truth.
OF THE TWO INSTRUMENT'S
>AESTHETIC, SONIC AND INTRINSIC QUALITIES WHICH RESULTS IN A
>DE
HUGE LOUD RANT SNIPPED.
>TS WIDELY ACCEPTED AESTHTETIC
>QUALITIES.
I thought you said I was the emotional one?
LOL.. you're losing it dude.
>>In order for this to make sense there has to be a point.
>THE POINT IS YOU HAVEN'T A CLUE BEYOND YOUR OWN WISHFUL THINKING.
wrong. banana breath.
>>Since the only point we really have is your saying the guitars aren't
>>comperable, and that point is surely proved in my favor above, I think
>>I win, again, by default.
>>Still, it's time to teach the puppy to go outside, so..
>>
>>The list of comperable features between these two guitars is deep.
>COMPARABLE IN THAT THEY ARE THE SAME SIZE AND MADE FROM SOME OF THE
>SAME WOOD..
and much more.. dimwit.
>>The list of persons agreeing on just those features alone, is perfect.
>THE ONLY ONES AGREEING SO FAR HAVE BEEN OBVIOUSLY UNKNOWLEDGABLE
>PEOPLE SEEKING GUIDENCE AND BEING LEAD ASTRAY BY YOUR NEED TO SATISFY
>YOUR EGO THAT THE KOREAN WANNABE YOU OWN IS SOME WAY INTHE SAME ARENA
>AS A GIBSON ES-335 AND ITS BARELY IN THE SAME AREA CODE.
you really need your meds, man.
>>Everyone agrees they have comperable features
>NO NOT EVERYONE...SO FAR ONLY OTHER PEOPLE WHO OWN THEM...AND I SURELY
>DON'T AGREE SO THAT IN ITSELF ISN'T "EVERYONE".
no.. everyone wouldn't possibly mean everyone in the world.. it would
have to mean those who have played them and in this case.. those who
have expressed an opinion here.
barfy.
>>The judgement of those features, something you-dumbass, keep leaving
>>out of your post probably because you're thick, but perhaps because
>>you're just bright enough to avoid them, is another thing.
>>Example of the above:
>>they are both built to gibson specs.
I ADMIT ...SAME SIZE
>>they are both twin humbuck guitars.-NO..ONE HAS CHEAP PIECES OF SHIT
> HUMBUCKING WHEN NOT MICROPHONICALLING PICK UPS THE OTHER HAS GENUINE
>GIBSON HUMBUCKERS.."HUMBUCKERS" ARE A PATENTED TERM BY GIBSON YOU
>DWEEB..AND FORD PINTOS AND CORVETTES EACH HAVE TWO DOORS WHAT A
>PUTZ!!!
LOL.. I love it when you go ballistic and spew forth nonsense.
stop creating arguments for things I don't say.
junior.
>>they are both laminated maple ONE IS CABINET PLYWOOD THE GIBSON
>GENUINE ARTICLE IS HIGH QUALITY FLAMED AND FIGURED VENEER ....
lol
>>They use similar woods.WITH MILES OF DIFFERENCE IN QUALITY..
lol
>.THE EPI HAS A LAMINATED MAPLE NECK THE MAHOGANY STRIPS ARE TO HIDE
>THE LAMINATION ...THE ES-335 HAS ONE PIECE NECK OF HONDURAN MAHOGANY
yeah. that makes sense.. HIDE the Lamination.. that's why they
advertise as five piece maple and mahogany necks.. right?
LOL
>>Those are all comperable features.
>>However, when you start to judge the two for relative merit
>YOU WILL IMMEDIATELY SEE THAT BEYOND A SLIGHT SIMILARITY VISUALLY
>THERE IS NO COMPARISON
especially if you have your eyes and ears closed.
>>(and this is what you mean, but couldn't express.. it isn't just
>>comparison, it has to be comparison done to some sensible standard and
>>in detail) HOW MUCH MORE DETAIL DO YOU WANT?
sensible detail.. all you can borrow, it's pretty clear you have none
of your own
>>you also find some differences:
>>
>>gold hardware GOLD PLATED JUNK
LOL..
>>abalone and mother of pearl triangle in block fretboard inlays.THIN CHEAP PIECES
> OF GLITZ IN LIEU OF QUALITY
oh that's so stoopid.
>>multi ply binding almost everywhere.. even the headstock and
> BINDING IS MORE GLITZ AND HAS NO EFFECT EXCEPT DISTRACTION FRON THE
>INTRINSICALLY INFERIOR PRODUCT PRODUCED BY EPIPHONE
>>pickguard-THAT IS THE CHEAPEST , UGLIEST PICKGUARD I"VE EVER SEEN AND SAID
>IF I BOUGHT ONE THAT WOULD BE THE FIRST THING TO GO
scream scream your point across Ruff old boy.. the dogs down the block
can't hear you!
woof!
>.
>>bound f holes._ TO HIDE JUST HOW THIN THE TOP REALLY IS
>>vine headstock inlay.-TO IMPLY A KINSHIP TO THE CLASSIC AND CLASSY EPIPHONES
>OF THE 30'S 40'S 50's AND 60'S
La la la la
god you're a drip.
>>.. all these things are only available on the epiphone....NO.. ON THE GIBSON COMPARABLE MODEL TO THE SHERATON,
>THE ES-355 ALL OF THOSE FEATURES ARE PRESENT AS WELL AS A STEREO
>OUTPUT CIRCUIT
>>coming in and saying a guitar with these finely executed extra
>WHAT TOTAL HORSESHIT! YOU HAVE A FUCKING CHEAP PIECE OF KOREAN SHIT
>PRETENDING AS YOU ARE TO BE OF GENUINE MUSICAL VALUE.
suck me.
>>features IN NO WAY is comperable to or looks as good as a gibson is a THERE YOU SAID IT YOU FUCKING IDIOT.
>..LET"S SEE HOW MANY COME AND AGREES WITH WHO
>>bit of obvious idiocy to every single person reading this post, and
>>the third strong point in which it is shown you blather and say not a
> I CAN TELL YOU MORE ABOUT THE HISTORY OF EPIPHONE, THE CONSTRUCTION
>OF GUITARS AND HOW TO DETERMINE QUALITY AND VALUE MORE THAN YOU CAN
>EVER IMAGINE YOU POSING PRETENDER
suck me twice.
>>fucking thing.
>>And if you don't stop chewing my slippers you'll be chained up behind
>>the garage tonight.
>>
>>
>>
>>>I can agree that if they can get their quality up higher they will be
>>>a good value in the under $800 range competing against Samick HF650's
>>>(your guitar with a different headstock)
>>
>>They are already a good value. That you don't include that as a given,
>>just amazes me. But why you raise the value range from the 600.00 they
>>sell for, to 800.00 is even more of a surprise.
>UNDER $800 YOU FUCKING IDIOT....AND THAT WAS SO I COULD FIND SOMEONE
>MAKING SOMETHING THAT CHEAP...MOST COMPANIES DON"T BOTHER WITH SUCH
>LOW GRADE INSTRUMENTS...THEY CONTRACT THEM OFF TO BE MADE WHERE LABOR
>IS CHEAP AND THEY"RE MADE MOSTLY PRE-FAB BY MACHINES SINCE THERE ISN"T
>A LOT OF CRAFTSMANSHIP INVOLVED ANY WAY BUT YOU OWN ONE OF THOSE
>PIECES OF SHIT SO YOU KNOW THAT AND I ALSO KNOW YOU'D DIE TO HAVE A
>REAL ES-335 OR ELSE YOU WOULDN'T BE TRYING SO HARD TO MAKE YOUR
>WANNABE INTO ONE
blah blah Im sure no one is reading you by now.. they are just
skipping down to see if I'm being funny.
Hi everyone!
>>It seems you not only don't know how to shop, you don't know where.
>ONE OF MY BEST FRIENDS OWNS A GIBSON DEALERSHIP YOU ASSHOLE I GET THEM
>FOR 55% OFF LIST.... THAT EPI TRASH FOR 60%
did you blow him?
>>Stick around and keeps your ears up, Ruff, you'll benefit.
>>
>>I haven't played the Samick. And the fact is, you don't find them very
>>often.NO BECAUSE MOST DEALERS DON"T WANT TO TAKE A CHANCE WITH THAT
> CHEAP KOREAN BULLSHIT AND THE SAMICK DOESN"T
> HAVE THAT ALL IMPORTANT PRODUCT IDENTIFICATION OF A ONCE REPUTABLE
>INSTRUMENT
LOL....yeah dealers don't want to stock guitars that sell well.
uh huh.
>>Furthermore, the sheraton has nothing to hide it's head about in it's
>>price range.. which is 600.00 ...IT "LISTS" FOR $1049 AT 40 % IT'S AROUND $600 WHICH IS ABOUT WHAT IT's WORTHwith lifetime warranty and hardshell
>>case. Availability is always a factor, and so is Gibsons warranty,
>>taken care of right here in the USA.AND IT's A DAMN GOOD THING SINCE THEY'RE SO SHODDY
>COMING FROM THE FACTORY
that certainly explains why I don't know anyone with any problems that
aren't minor.
>>Also, there are some differences beyond cosmetic between these two
>>models as well.
>>
>>> or a Washburn HB-35 (a much
>>
>>
>>I've not seen a washburn of any stripe I'd have shoved up my ass.
>>I have seen scads of them sold as factory seconds, and know that many
>>develop problems sold as firsts, and I also have seen a good many of
>>Washburns products on the shelf and seeming to have a hard time
>>surviving just hanging there, so if you want to go with Washburn... be
>>my guest. I however, returned two Washburns listing in the 1200.00
>>range and I'll be sticking with my epiphone.
>>OF COURSE YOU WILL YOU CHEAP BASTARD YOU WOULDN"T WANT
>ONE OF THE BEST GUITAR ACCORDING TO GUITAR PLAYER MAGAZINE UNDER $1000
>STREET PRICE IF YOU HAD TO PAY A HUNDRED BUCKS MORE.
tell the truth. you've forgotten all the times epi won their praise,
eh?
and another thing.. you or your pals sell those washburn jokes and
that's the reason you're really blathering all this crap, isn't it?
tired of getting your assess outsold by epi.
>>>better choice than the Sheraton in some people's opinion)
>>
>>some people are more trusting than others. I am not like that.
> NO YOU"RE JUST AN IGNORANT FUCKING ASSHOLE THAT HASN"T BOTHERED TO
>LEARN ANYTHING EXCEPT THE EASY STUFF LIKE THAT ONCE UPON A TIME
>EPIPHONE WAS A GOOD BRAND...IT'S NOT A MATTER OF TRUST IT'S A MATTER
>OF USING YOUR COGNITIVE ABILITIES OH EXCUSE ME.. I'D FORGOTTEN THAT
>YOU DON'T HAVE ANY
scream oh screaming one.. scream with all your heart..
asshead.
LOL.. you are pathetic.
>I, like Keb Mo and
>>John Lee HookerTHEN YOU"D BETTER BUY A '67, and others, am going to keep my sheraton.
>>WHICH IS GOOD CONSIDERING YOUR PLAYING LEVEL PRECLUDES
> ANY ADVANTAGE FROM OWNING A QUALITY INSTRUMENT
LOL..
>>> and buy yourself a
>>>Heritage H535..Yes, I've seen people on stage with Epiphones and my
>>>first thought isn't "wow that guy is a pro and he plays an Epiphone!"
>>
>>And your second thought was, I wonder how come I think I'm smarter
>>than he is.. right?NO MY SECOND THOUGHT IS THE FUCK HEAD MUST HAVE LISTENED
>TO THAT OTHER FUCK HEAD AND BOUGHT THAT TRASH
>>
LOL..
>>>my thought is "wow...that guys is a pro and he plays an Epiphone?"
>>
>> It sounds like a personal problem, to me.
>> Your stuck sitting there thinking your opinion counts for more
>IT COUNTS FOR MORE THAN YOURS BECAUSE IT'S BASED IN REASON
>AND NOT FANTASY OF WISHING WHAT YOU HAVE IS MORE THAN WHAT IT IS
oh yah youre the king of reason.. reason above three hundred decibels
that is.
jack ass.
>>somehow, you think you are right and others are wrong, and in every
>>way! That's what is really incredible.
>> The fact is, it's just your opinion. It certainly cannot carry any
>>more wieght than you gather in consonance in here
>I'M DYING TO SEE THE OTHER RESPONSES FROM PEOPLE WHO OWN REAL GUITARS.
I think you're already dead.
brain dead.
>> And it can't overwhelm the wieght of so many people in here who
>>disagree.
>ALL THE LOSERS WHO WASTED THEIR MONEY ON KOREAN TRASH..
uh huh. all us losers.
we're gonna be real happy to see you come back in here.... don't make
any mistakes.. know what I mean vern?
>> I could have gone over every single aspect of the Epiphone/Gibson
>>argument, in detail, and shown clearly that there is a choice to be
>>made between these guitars
>YES TAKE THE GIBSON
eat me
>. Especially interesting points given the
>>vast difference in their prices.ANYTIME YOU FEEL YOU HAVE A VALID ARGUMENT BEYOND
> WHAT YOU WISH WERE TRUE I'D LOVE TO HEAR IT
you already did.. and ignored it
>> And even Polfus would sink to agreeing with me that an epiphone is
>>a worthwhile lifetime investment in a guitar. not a guitar market
>>investment, a player, a keeper, a guitar you could keep as long as you
>>like, with every degree of pride your playing and your enjoyment alone
>>can provide. OR AT LEAST ONE YOU KEEP UNTIL YOU CAN AFFORD A GROWN UP GUITAR
uh huh.. I'm not grown up.. you can't read, you can't write, you can't
make a point without yelling, you assume to know everything from what
I'm thinking to what my bank balance is.. yet.. I'm not grown up.
LOL
>> Not to mention that it's an instrument which has already taken the
>>stage in the hands of many many players at all levels and given
>>thousands of people great pleasure.
>BULLSHIT THE ONLY PEOPLE THAT USE THEM ON STAGE ARE BUSHLEAGUERS AND
>ENDORSEES
get loud man.... you're just not loud enough.
> I've made this as short as I can while still affording myself the
>>indulgence of the .. er.. rolled up newspaper.. while clarifying what
>>I see as weak arguments from you.
>> I've tried to let 'famous' players and satisfied owners---and by
>>the way, most of these people shopped by comparing the epi to the
>>gibson, aint that a coinky dink? yet you've ignored that---speak with
>>me.COMPARING WHAT THEY COULD AFFORD...SHIT TRAILER PARK RENT AIN'T CHEAP
>YOUR FRIENDS HAVE TO WATCH THEIR PENNIES
uh huh.. more prejudicial remarks. which make you look the total ass
you are.
>> No matter that professional 'stars' use epis, no matter that
>>working pros use them, no matter that someone who started playing in
>>the mid 60s THE GUITARS OF THE 60'S ARE NOT THE ONES OF TODAY YOU THICK SOD
take another look dimbulb.. I didn't mention the 60s.
> uses them, no matter that players who are just beginning
>>and intermediate players use them, you know better.
>> You know more about wood, you know more about what looks good, you
>>know more about tone.
>>
>>Here's a biscuit. go play.
>>Twang!...a sound you get when you don't have TONE !!
not according to some.
>>RE:
>>>Just my nickel's worth. No offence intended.
>>None taken, and none sent your way.
>>The above is just my way of making a few jokes. It's fun to play the
>>old crank and all.
>>Happy picking.
>>
>>
>>>Gregzy
>>
>>COME ON GIBSON OWNERS I KNOW YOU'RE OUT THERE HELP ME OUT HERE
>>/-)
gibson owners aren't going to flock to your side and argue what isn't
being argued.
No one said the epi beats the gibson... in fact, I've said several
times in this group and others that it's not a fair comparison to
begin with.
What's being said is this...
try to concentrate now, dog boy,
an epi compares well to a gibson.
and it's true.
Twang!
>GREGZY
dont shit yourself.
/-)
Patrick F. Coleman
>On Wed, 03 Feb 1999 17:11:34 GMT, guitar11@$aloha$.com (Matt) wrote:
>>Hi- Just thought I would throw my opinion in... I just bought a new
>>epi dot, and it plays geat. Sure I would have wanted a gibson, but are
>>they $1800 dollars better? I'm not sure about that. I play for a
>>living, and my epi brings home the dough and makes just as much music
>>as a Gibson would....fat tone....good intonation...good pickups. Are
>>you a good player? You can make the epi work VERY easily....or are you
>>a guitar collector who likes to talk about plastic this and bone that
>>and finish and all the other stuff that people like to complain about
>>when they can't play? No slam here, but I've seen it before....just my
>>2 cents.
>32 years...18 years full time pro.. retired for 9 years.and though I'm
>a hack player..I do know my pentatonics from my mixolydians and given
>the right atmosphere can even play chords and licks using my pinkie
>and yes I collect guitars...for enjoyment and pleasure..My question
>and argument isn't a slam at Epi owners..it's the idea that they are
>identical...
no one has claimed they were identical. you just read that in there on
your own.
>if the difference was only say $300 would you pay more for
>a Gibson?
it's not that much, it's far more.
we deal in the real world here.
>If the Dot works for you I think it's great and I appreciate
>and understand your position but I also don't have you in my face
>telling me I'm a butt munch for saying there's a difference.
but you are a butt munch.
The main
>problem with the Epi was microphonic pups everything else was
>fixable..I have an old set of PAFs I was going to pop in but the gutar
>didn't seem worth it. My friend owns the shop and has sent almost all
>of them back
I don't believe you at all.
I also get a very sizeable discount so I may still buy
>one...just don't tell Pat..I do my own set ups and changing the pups
>isn't anything (though not fun on a semi-acoustic without back
>access).
it's a cinch if you've done it before.
I crab about it but mostly to warn beginners.
Twang!
>Gregzy
/-)
Patrick F. Coleman
tone, dimwith is subjective.
and your accounts do not mesh with the larger number of reports from
here.
or sales, for that matter.
Twang!
>Gregzy
>>
>>--
>>+---------------------------------------///--------------------+
>>| | /// |
>>| If I didn't know better, I'd | Mike Hartigan |
>>| say it was a sectional sofa. \\\| hart...@enteract.dot.com |
>>| \\\/// |
>>+---------------------------------\\\/-------------------------+
>>
/-)
!Koi
>
> This is not intended to add fuel to the fire in the "Gibson vs Epiphone" war.
>
> today are worth their face value. IMHO a Gibson Les Paul is worth $700 & a
> Epi is worth $200. I would have never considered paying close to $1000 for a
> Strat. I bought my current American Strat + for $700+ & sheesh!!! when I
> first started playing they were so much cheaper.
I've heard people say this before, and it kind of amuses me...people
who have fixed dollar amounts in their heads for goods without regard
for the relative value of "a dollar". Please tell me that you didn't
have any money invested in the stock market when the Dow Jones average
was below 1,000 and that your salary hasn't at least doubled, if not
tripled or quadrupled, since you could get that $700 LP and that you
haven't paid over $15,000 for a new car. You could get SOME car for
$15k back then!
Joe
!Koi
lines to add your 20 or 30.
Thanks,
Joe
Richard E. Johnson
I think the Sheraton sounds a bit brighter than the 335, probably due to its
laminated maple neck. This is OK. I did change the pickups to Duncan '59s
and prefer the sound better. I actually taded a Gibson Blueshawk for the
Sheraton.
Is the finish better than a Gibson's? No. As Good, probably. I've played a
lot of Gibson 335s and I like them. But I also like the Sheraton I got, too.
If I were to buy another 335-type guitar, I'd definitely check out a
Heritage 535, because everyone I've played has been great.
I've said this before, but the best 335 I've ever played was a Washburn
HB-35 I owned, but stupidly traded for a strat (thought it was a good thing
at the time; boy I regret it now). Unfortunately, every other HB-35 or HB-30
I've played since hasn't been as good.
I had a friend who started with a Mexican Strat. Then he got an American
Standard and finally a Zon super-strat of the finest materials. Now he's
back to another Mexican Strat, with changed pickups and he loves it. He
didn't have to sell the other guitars, he just did because this guitar
speaks to him best.
Look, a guitar is a tool. Music is in the spirit, soul and fingers. If you
need an expensive guitar to express yourself fine. The Beatle used mid-level
instruments throughout most of their careers and did pretty well. I good
instrument is simply a good instrument, reguardless of price.
--
Richard Johnson
{Just playing an instrument doesn't make you a musician,
listening does...}
Patrick F. Coleman wrote in message <7993ah$jfs$1...@remarQ.com>...
>Zac Reaney-Barker <z...@idirect.ca> wrote:
>
>>I was just wondering if anyone could explain to me the differences
>>between Epiphone's Sheraton and ES-335.. They look a heck of a lot
>>alike, but I've noticed somewhat of a difference in tone (maybe it was
>>just the models I was demoing).. Other than headstock and metal plating
>>on the hardware, what's the difference?
>>Thanks.
>>-Zac
>
>/-)
>
paul brecht
>I've heard people say this before, and it kind of amuses me...people
>who have fixed dollar amounts in their heads for goods without regard
>for the relative value of "a dollar". Please tell me that you didn't
>have any money invested in the stock market when the Dow Jones average
>was below 1,000 and that your salary hasn't at least doubled, if not
>tripled or quadrupled, since you could get that $700 LP and that you
>haven't paid over $15,000 for a new car. You could get SOME car for
>$15k back then!
Actually, I make considerably less now than I did back then, due to the
Californian economy. I've never been into the stocks & consider the heighth
of inflation to be the congruent with amount of greed in the marketplace.
gre...@hotmail.com
wrote:
>In alt.guitar gre...@hotmail.com wrote:
>
>> The density of the bridge on the Epiphone gives it a thin,
>> vapid quality in comparison to a tune-o-matic
>
>I know you're not addressing me, but my Epi Sheraton II does, indeed,
>have a tune-o-matic bridge.
wrong!!!
As did my Gibson ES-335. yes...and you don't notice any difference?
As does my Epi
>Les Paul Custom- yes..an Imported version of the tune-o-matic is used on the Les Pauls,Casinos,SuperNova BB King Lucille
and the G-1275 knock off the double neck but not on the DOT or The
Sheraton
Nothing vapid about it...tinny and thin..no depth..no sustain..no
ring.
>
>> ..but if they hadn't
>> spent so much money putting gold plated glitz on everything maybe they
>> could have afforded to put decent hardware on them.
>
>But they do put decent hardware on them. Or at least they did on mine,
>and, I suspect, on Patrick's. The quality of the switches, pots, jacks,
>bridge, tuners, etc. leaves nothing to be desired. One can't help but
>wonder what the 2 dozen or so Epiphone Sheraton II's you saw really
>were. Your bridge comment above lends serious doubt as to your
>familiarity with the subject.
please read below...and if you doubt anything I said below there's a
1-800 number you can call or a local guitar shop...ask them if it's
possible to put a real Gibson tune-o-matic on either the Sheraton or
The Dot. You see I not only know of everything I speak I've also tried
everything..including finding a way to make that Sheraton and that Dot
a guitar of the calibre I'm used to playing..and it can't be done.
>-- dear god they've all got cheap guitar syndrome...,ok next time you're at a music store
ask the nice man to see a real ES-335 or any Gibson with a stop tail
piece and ask the nice man if you can look real close and if he says
yes you'll notice that the bridge will be one of two types #1 the most
common will be called an "ABR-1 Tune-o-matic" patent issued in 1952 to
another very nice man named Ted McCarty...first appeared on guitars in
1957..the other type #2 will look very much like the first but will be
slightly wider..this is called a "Nashville Tune-o-matic"....the
difference being the retaining spring on the ABR-1 to hold the saddles
in place and the slight size difference...There was another version
called "The Schaller Bridge" this appeared in the early 70's but was
phased out by the early 80's. There were also two other versions of
the Tune-o-matic "The Top Adjust" and "The Three Point" These are no
longer used and haven't been for a very long time. While the bridge
that is on the Sheraton and on The Dot somewhat resembles a Schaller
Tune-o-matic it is not and the Schaller will not fit the bridge studs.
As I said a version of the Tune-o-matic does appear on all models
other than The Sheraton and the Dot....and those Tune-o-matics are not
Gibson Tune-o-matics but ones licensed to be built by Samick for
Epiphone. Pictures of real Tune-o-matics can be found here
http://www.gibson.com/products/strings/parts/bridges.html
do you see anything there that would fit on your Sheraton? No, you
won't because a Gibson Tune-o-matic won't work on them..and the width
of the stop tail piece is also different. You implied that I didn't
know of what I spoke. Well, I guess I know more than you think i do
because as I said I throroughly researched all the possibilities
involving those two guitars
I apologise for giving you more credit at being able to distinguish
between high quality guitar hardware and the junk that you're used to
playing. I'm now looking at a very clear picture of the bridge that is
on the Sheraton which if anyone cares to check is on page three of the
current Epiphone catalogue( I know some of you have these in your
bathrooms for those moments of fantasy and inspired reading) you can
verify the accuracy of my statements. If you will look very carefully
you will note that it doesn't look even vauguely like a Gibson ABR-1
or Nashville.
I think it's obvious that Epiphone has a lot of fans..they are a good
cheap guitar as I've said but I was under the impression that this
newsgroup had some actual devotees of guitars and not just a few guys
determined to make their stable boy dance with the princes through
their vivid imaginations. If you all want to believe that your
Epiphones are on par with the actual Gibson models I suppose that is
your choice and I won't attempt to rob you of your fantasy but the
shame in this is that you will never be able to appreciate the true
guitar builder's art...never find yourself lost in a ton of flame...or
feel the smooth warm lacquered finish of a true musical masterpiece.
you'll never experience the tone of Patent Applied For Pickups. or the
sustain from a true tune-o-matic..no, you'll be too busy convincing
yourself that the $600 copy is enough pleasure for you. I'm sorry but
I've had a mad love affair with guitars for over 30 years. I won't
settle for some cheap imitator..convince myself that anything but the
real Mc Coy is worthy of my adoration. It's too bad because I'm
looking at the flame on a ES-335 right now and I can touch its neck
and feel the quality..lightly brush the strings and have them ring for
ever..and I know that this guitar is part of a long line of dedication
to an art form...not some image knocked off in some Asian dump of a
factory by people with no awareness of the cultural and historical
significances of the American guitar. No appreciation for its stunning
aural and visual beauty...no need for shiny plastic finishes..only a
light coat of lacquer..and I can see that the top cap is almost a 1/4"
thick..not the 3/32" used on the pretenders and it's too bad..I've
been very fortunate and over time have been able to obtain a lot of
very nice guitars and I know not everyone is able to own these but to
deny their value is such ignorance because even though I right now
possess them in 40 or 50 years when I'm no longer here someone else
will gaze upon these and wonder..In 40 or 50 years your pretenders
will be tatters as the the rages of time takes its toll...think not?
ok...how many Gibsons older than forty years old are there..and how
many imported guitar that are even twenty -five years old still
around? they don't last..that fancy (?) binding will separate and
peel when the cheap glues dry..the veneer on the top will eventually
lift and peel..after a few years of being under the tension of steel
strings the cold applied wood glues will dry and the necks will pull
from their dovetail joints
so enjoy them while you can. The pity is that I never meant to insult
anyone or put down their choice of instrument..I was only saying that
it's apples and oranges..but some had to drive home how they were the
same. But they're not the same and very far from being the same and if
you believe they are then you are deceiving yourself and also losing a
very precious part of the guitar..the ability to appreciate quality.
Enjoy your guitars fellows..doubt me if you must but at least do me
the service of investigating whether I'm bullshitting because tonight
I go with the full confidence of my knowledge..and that knowledge is
my joy...Pat , you own an Epiphone Sheraton and that means two very
different things to each of us...and you know that I know what it
really means..I hope some day you're able to experience a true quality
guitar and without superficial comparisons to satify your ego. And
everyone else..all I can say is enjoy what you're playing and if
you're satisfied fine but for me...."Only A Gibson Is Good Enough"
TONE!!! (the polar opposite of TWANG!)
Gregzy
>+-------------------------------------///--------------------------+
gre...@hotmail.com
Coleman) wrote:
>Ok Pat..final response...enjoy your guitar..I'll enjoy mine....
and Pat..the wrole problem with bullshitting is soon you begin to
believe it. If you're content playing that guitar that's all that
matters..I know..you know...Live with it. and I'm sorry after all this
time all you can come up with is some poser piece of shit..you should
have kept the 335..but you never really had one because if you had you
wouldn't be talking the shit you talk. So see if you can get some
converts To Pat's religion of the wannabe guitar. I'd rather spend my
time discussing the finer points of guitars with someone of some
degree of knowledge..not some loser who's out to convince himself and
everyone around him that the piece of shit guitar he owns is the least
bit worthy of being considered a serious instrument but you seemed to
have found one pro as desperate as you to have to resort to that
bottom feeder of six strings..I've got no more time for you shit for
brains...you're an ignorant asshole and you don't deserve any better
of a guitar than you have. Au revior
TONE !!! that's something quality guitars do..but from someone like
you I can only expect you'll be satisfied with TWANG..enjoy you icon
of the guitar building art and know that I'm laughing my ass off at
your self-deceiving ignorance.
Gregzy
>/-)
>
Mike Hartigan
> On 3 Feb 1999 22:04:55 GMT, Mike Hartigan <hart...@enteract.dot.com>
> wrote:
> >In alt.guitar gre...@hotmail.com wrote:
> >
> >> The density of the bridge on the Epiphone gives it a thin,
> >> vapid quality in comparison to a tune-o-matic
> >
> >I know you're not addressing me, but my Epi Sheraton II does, indeed,
> >have a tune-o-matic bridge.
> wrong!!!
Well, it looks like a tune-o-matic, it adjusts like a tune-o-matic,
Epiphone (and, by default, Gibson) calls it a tune-o-matic. In my book,
that makes it a tune-o-matic. Reading ahead, you cite five
'Tune-o-matic' bridges, all different, but you discount the one that is
installed on my Sheraton. I am baffled by your logic.
> As did my Gibson ES-335. yes...and you don't notice any difference?
> As does my Epi
> >Les Paul Custom- yes..an Imported version of the tune-o-matic is used on the Les Pauls,Casinos,SuperNova BB King Lucille
> and the G-1275 knock off the double neck but not on the DOT or The
> Sheraton
> Nothing vapid about it...tinny and thin..no depth..no sustain..no
> ring.
> >
> >> ..but if they hadn't
> >> spent so much money putting gold plated glitz on everything maybe they
> >> could have afforded to put decent hardware on them.
> >
> >But they do put decent hardware on them. Or at least they did on mine,
> >and, I suspect, on Patrick's. The quality of the switches, pots, jacks,
> >bridge, tuners, etc. leaves nothing to be desired. One can't help but
> >wonder what the 2 dozen or so Epiphone Sheraton II's you saw really
> >were. Your bridge comment above lends serious doubt as to your
> >familiarity with the subject.
> please read below...and if you doubt anything I said below there's a
> 1-800 number you can call or a local guitar shop...ask them if it's
> possible to put a real Gibson tune-o-matic on either the Sheraton or
> The Dot.
Are you saying that all five of the tune-o-matics that you call the real
thing(s) are interchangeable? Disagree, if you must, but try to be
consistent.
> You see I not only know of everything I speak I've also tried
> everything..including finding a way to make that Sheraton and that Dot
> a guitar of the calibre I'm used to playing..and it can't be done.
Sorry, my response was geared toward your previous statement that you
had only 30 minutes of experience in a store with a defective Sheraton
II and two dozen others (that's a minute, 12 seconds each, including
picking it up, inspecting it, plugging it in, quick tune, playing it a
bit, grimacing at the poor quality, unplugging it, putting it down, and
moving on to the next one). I will try to adjust my arguments to today's
version of your experience.
> >-- dear god they've all got cheap guitar syndrome...,ok next time you're at a music store
> ask the nice man to see a real ES-335 or any Gibson with a stop tail
> piece [...]
No need. I looked at the bridge/tailpiece on my Gibson ES-335, and
deemed the Sheraton's a functional equivalent before I bought it. (and
the saddles are, indeed, interchangeable, FWIW)
> [...] and ask the nice man if you can look real close and if he says
Nor does "The Top Adjust", nor "The Three Point", nor the "Schaller".
Yet you call these these 'real' tune-o-matics. You've just changed your
mind again in the middle of the same post.
> I think it's obvious that Epiphone has a lot of fans..they are a good
> cheap guitar as I've said but I was under the impression that this
> newsgroup had some actual devotees of guitars and not just a few guys
> determined to make their stable boy dance with the princes through
> their vivid imaginations. If you all want to believe that your
> Epiphones are on par with the actual Gibson models I suppose that is
> your choice and I won't attempt to rob you of your fantasy but the
> shame in this is that you will never be able to appreciate the true
> guitar builder's art...never find yourself lost in a ton of flame...or
> feel the smooth warm lacquered finish of a true musical masterpiece.
> you'll never experience the tone of Patent Applied For Pickups.
Unless I install a set on my Sheraton. I didn't experience the tone of
PAF pickups on my 335, either. But I don't want to destroy your argument
with facts.
> or the sustain from a true tune-o-matic
Whatever that means NOW. It's hard to keep track.
> ..no, you'll be too busy convincing
> yourself that the $600 copy is enough pleasure for you.
You may be of a different opinion, but I think pleasure is a subjective
thing. And I don't consider, nor did I ever suggest that my Sheraton is
a 'copy' of anything (a cursory glance is all that is needed to verify
this). It is, indeed, a 'real' Sheraton II. It stands nicely on its own.
My argument, all along, has been that it's not as 'different' as many
would suggest than a similarly marketed Gibson in terms of quality, fit,
finish, and playability. I'll give you the benefit of the doubt, and
assume that you saw a very different instrument than I (and probably Mr.
Coleman) bought.
> I'm sorry but
> I've had a mad love affair with guitars for over 30 years.
You've thrown this 'over 30 years' thing out a number of times. If
that's significant, then my opinion should count more, since I have a
few years over you in this regard. But that's silly.
> I won't
> settle for some cheap imitator..convince myself that anything but the
> real Mc Coy is worthy of my adoration. It's too bad because I'm
> looking at the flame on a ES-335 right now and I can touch its neck
> and feel the quality..lightly brush the strings and have them ring for
> ever
I've had the pleasure with my ES-335. I've had a similar pleasure with
my Sheraton. Why does that disturb you so?
> [...] and I know that this guitar is part of a long line of dedication
> to an art form...not some image knocked off in some Asian dump of a
> factory by people with no awareness of the cultural and historical
> significances of the American guitar.
There's THAT argument again. As I said before - it's quaint, but
irrelevant.
> [...] No appreciation for its stunning
> aural and visual beauty...no need for shiny plastic finishes..only a
> light coat of lacquer..and I can see that the top cap is almost a 1/4"
> thick..not the 3/32" used on the pretenders and it's too bad..I've
> been very fortunate and over time have been able to obtain a lot of
> very nice guitars and I know not everyone is able to own these but to
> deny their value is such ignorance because even though I right now
> possess them in 40 or 50 years when I'm no longer here someone else
> will gaze upon these and wonder..In 40 or 50 years your pretenders
> will be tatters as the the rages of time takes its toll...think not?
> ok...how many Gibsons older than forty years old are there..and how
> many imported guitar that are even twenty -five years old still
> around? they don't last..that fancy (?) binding will separate and
> peel when the cheap glues dry..the veneer on the top will eventually
> lift and peel..after a few years of being under the tension of steel
> strings the cold applied wood glues will dry and the necks will pull
> from their dovetail joints
Is this a fantasy of yours, or have you actually seen it happen? Every
statement of yours suggests that you're trying to defend your purchase.
Don't bother. I think that the ES-335 is among the finest pieces of
work there is. Pontiac markets a fine automobile. But it's not a
Cadillac, even though they're part of the same corporation. (granted,
this is not a perfect analogy, but it makes my point)
> so enjoy them while you can. The pity is that I never meant to insult
> anyone or put down their choice of instrument..
'Cheap imitator', 'pretender', 'junk', 'some image knocked off in some
Asian dump'. How could anybody interpret that as a put-down?
> I was only saying that
> it's apples and oranges..but some had to drive home how they were the
> same. But they're not the same and very far from being the same and if
> you believe they are then you are deceiving yourself and also losing a
> very precious part of the guitar
As I've indicated before, many Gibson fanatics (I'm distinguishing them
from Gibson owners, in general) insist that Epiphone owners say that the
Epiphone Sheraton is identical to the ES-335. I don't think I've seen
an Epi owner say this. Looks, alone, makes a statement like that
ludicrous. But Gibbies make this claim, nevertheless. There must be
some agenda, although it escapes me. Pissed off because you spent too
much? Maybe, but it can't be that simple. Sending American jobs
overseas? Your post hints at that, but that can't be the whole story,
either. Epiphone and Gibson are different guitars. You feel that
they're VERY different. Based on some of what you've said, you are
comparing an ES-335 with a Sheraton that is VERY different from mine. In
this case, you may be right. Mine is not as different - in terms of
quality of construction, materials, fit, finish, playability, mystic
effect - as the one(s) you saw. Maybe the Sheraton is a different
guitar than it was 10+ years ago. In which case, we may both right. Is
my Sheraton equal to a 335? No. Is the Gibson better? In some ways,
yes. Is it 4x better? No way!
[remaining quoted text snipped]
Provider Transportation
to the almighty Gibsons? Epiphones have one of those shiny gold stickers on
them that says made in Korea. I remember when I was a kid. I got a toy car
set for Christmas that broke in an hour. It had one of those shiny stickers
on it too.
Harf
Richard Peek
In article <36B7EB...@idirect.ca>, z...@idirect.ca says...
Patrick F. Coleman
>Harf
Incredibly relevant of you, old chum.
Deep.
Twang!
/-)
Zac Reaney-Barker
The question I was trying to ask was not an Epi vs. Gibson thing, but
rather:
What are the differences between an EPIPHONE Sheraton II and an EPIPHONE
"The Dot" ES335 copy?
I'm a poor college student and I don't have a house I can morgage right
now just to buy a second nice guitar - so I'm looking for something
affordable.. I've already ruled out real Gibsons (for now) and just want
to know the differences within the Epi line..
Thanks
-Zac
(Sorry for the poorly worded question...)
gre...@hotmail.com
wrote:
Buy The Epiphone Zac, forget the childish repartee you've witnessed
here. It's a matter of apples and oranges and of someone who wants
their Naval orange to be a Laxton's Superb. My point was that with any
guitar you must scruntinise each individual one. No one has enough
money to waste throwing it at rubbish so examine them whether you're
paying $600 for an Epiphone or $2000 for a Gibson. The difference
doesn't matter if the Gibson isn't any option. You have to consider
the Epiphone and compare it against other guitars in its range and
consider the qualities of that individual guitar. As I said in my
original post I've owned Epiphones for many years and have been very
happy with them. The current line of Epiphones all in all seem to be a
very good value. My examination of the two dozen Epiphones did not
occur in one day but has over the course of a year or so and I did
find some things to be concerned about but most music shops will
correct these before the guitar leaves the store and in the instance
of a major problem there is a warranty to fall back on. I have a very
good friend who happens to be a high volume Gibson dealer and gives me
great deals on the instruments I buy and no, I'm not going to name the
shop because I want to continue to get these deals and not have all of
his other "friends" go to him and expect the same causing him to tell
me that he can't do it any longer. When I brought the guitars that
were flawed to his attention they were immediately removed and those
that could be repaired were and those that couldn't sent back. I am
very fortunate to have been able to obtain my guitars over the course
of a very long time. I haven't forgot what its like to not be able to
buy whatever struck my fancy..I haven't forgot because I'm still not
able to but I do always try to get the most I can get and to get the
most for my money. I apologise to you for this rambling diatribe that
occured as a result of your very valid and senseable query. This can
sometimes become a forum of subjective promotions of personal agendas
rather than a place of information. All of the bitter hyperbole aside,
buy what you're comfortable with in the range you can afford. If what
you choose has quality and functions of something costing much more
then you've made a wise purchase. And if the feautures satisfy your
needs and requirements then the purchase was money well-spent. Good
luck and again I apologise.
Gregzy
A.J.Barlow
opposed to UN-emotional) posts on this issue.
The thing that amazes me most is just how good most of these lower-end
instruments are, compared to the Zim-Gars, Kents, and Teiscos of yesteryear.
I've played a few Epiphones, and would not be terribly distressed to own
one. I do own a Mexican Strat (Roland Ready) and hate it, but only because
I also own a '57 Reissue, and it soffuers by comparison, but in its own way
it's a perfecty playable instrument (and, IMHO, the Epiphones are much
better instruments still).
As a working tool, if these instruments (or, for that matter, the Samiks, or
Washburns, etc.) are holding you back, you're probably not that great to
begin with.
On the other hand, the automobile comparisons do approach the heart of the
matter. I can take a 454 and plop it in a 76 Caprice and it will probably
beat the BMW in the 1/4 mile. A good driver will take an Escort, and drive
circles around me in my XK-120. The thing is, there's more to cars than
horsepower, spring rates, and, in general, the numbers, and there's more to
an instrument than the sound, or the feel, or the finish, or the wood . . .
It's all of these, plus the vibe that someone put into that particular
instrument. This isn't something that makes sense. It's not something that
your music teacher or your accountant can justify, even in terms of
investment, though that may play some part. It's like the difference
between the wife you've lived with and loved for thirty years and a showy
prostitute -- One may perform as well or better, may even have a nicer
finish, but somewhere down the road, you're going to know the difference. .
. . or maybe not. If you don't, then that Epiphone may indeed be your soul
mate.
Phil
have played Epiphone among Eiphone and fine none of them match up to my
Gibson. Yes, epiphone does have some good guitars, but i turn my head
away from anyone who prefers an epiphone over a gibson (that is, of the
same model).
gre...@hotmail.com
<paulb...@worldnet.att.net> wrote:
> This is not intended to add fuel to the fire in the "Gibson vs Epiphone"
>war.
>
> I've been privelidged to be able to make certain contacts in my pro
>days. I used to have product indorsements that would allow me to get into
>the NAMM show. (National Association of Music Merchants) While there a few
>years back, right after Gibson released the "Epi" line, I talked to one of
>the Gibson reps. He told me the deal with the "Epi". While we were looking
>at an acoustic guitar, he pointed to the little plate that covers the truss
>rod screw. He then went on to say "that was the only thing Gibson on the
>whole instrument"
>
> You see Epiphone was going under when Gibson bought their name. Gibson
>had started to lose some of the market as well, because of the increase of
>price. The most common sale at a guitar store averages about $200, since
>most beginning guitarists mothers buy little Jr. what is in their
>"affordable" range. Most of the bigger companies started to lose their edge.
>So Gibson decided to make a lower budget line of guitars. (hence the Epi)
>
> Gibson has a justifiable response to a changing market. If people want
>cheap, we'll make cheap. (& at the same time hike up the prices on the
>Gibson line 300-400%) They tried to do this w/ the Heritage line, but
>couldn't get the overhead down far enough to meet the above marketing need.
>(but they hike up the price of the regular line then too!!!)
>
> With all this tidbit of factual info said, I will say that for the buck,
>(in the present market)the Epi is a good deal. I personally wouldn't buy
>one, but that's me. When I started playing you could get a Les Paul for
>under $700. I don't necessarily think that any of the guitars that are made
>today are worth their face value. IMHO a Gibson Les Paul is worth $700 & a
>Epi is worth $200. I would have never considered paying close to $1000 for a
>Strat. I bought my current American Strat + for $700+ & sheesh!!! when I
>first started playing they were so much cheaper.
>
> If you have an Epi' & are happy GOOD!!! If you don't have one & don't
>want one GOOD!!! If you have a Gibson & are happy, well you know where I'm
>going w/ this.
>
>I agree with everything you've said but....Heritage Guitars are not now, nor have
they ever been in any way associated with Gibson guitars. Heritage
Guitars was formed in the mid- late 1980's by a group of former
employees of Gibson (both management and craft) and their facility at
225 Parsons Street in Kalamazoo was once part of the Gibson complex.
When Heritage moved in they also purchased some of the equipment that
Gibson in its move to Nashville left behind. That is where any
connection to Gibson ends except for their guitars being very close in
quality, performance and type to those offered by Gibson but at a
substantially less "List" price and therefore at a lower street price.
The entire Gibson/Epiphone debate is a moot point akin to saying my
Chevy Tahoe is the same as a Hummer because they're both sports
utility vehicles and have four wheels.
Gregzy
gre...@hotmail.com
Geez..I'm sorry Zac I mis-read your question yet again...The
difference between the Sheraton and the Dot is this. The Sheraton is
based on the Gibson Es-355. It's a laminated maple body with a
laminated maple neck. Rosewood neck with split block pearloid inalys
and a pearloid "Vine" inlay on the head stock. The Sheraton has gold
plated hardware and binding on the body, headstock and neck. The Dot
is also a laminated maple body but has a one piece maple neck with a
rosewood fretboard with pearloid dot inlays. The Dot is a more direct
copy of the ES-335 by Gibson and has binding only around the body. The
Dot's hardware is chrome and the headstock inlay is the rose-like
thing found on the ES-335. Other than that and a about a $125 street
price difference they're both set necked, double cutaway, double
humbucking pick up'ed. semi acoustic (solid center block with
attatched acoustic "wings") guitars. Both have 1.68" nut widths and
24.75" scale lengths. The binding is cosmetic though some find neck
binding to be more comfortable, the chrome hardware isn't as prone to
tarnish and wear as the gold but some prefer the flashier gold. the
inlays are also decorative though there was once some debate with the
ES-335's that the dots rather than the blocks gave the fretboard more
density thus giving it a deeper, woodier tone. That in my opinion is
stretching it..it's a matter of personal aesthetics. The same with the
solid vs, laminated neck. the real difference is between a mahogany
neck and a maple neck with the maple neck having a perceivable
brightness to it (also in my opinion)..hope this helps. Again , my
apologies.
Gregzy
brotone
> Boy do I feel stupid...
>
> The question I was trying to ask was not an Epi vs. Gibson thing, but
> rather:
>
> What are the differences between an EPIPHONE Sheraton II and an EPIPHONE
> "The Dot" ES335 copy?
>
> I'm a poor college student and I don't have a house I can morgage right
> now just to buy a second nice guitar - so I'm looking for something
> affordable.. I've already ruled out real Gibsons (for now) and just want
> to know the differences within the Epi line..
>
> Thanks
> -Zac
> (Sorry for the poorly worded question...)
>
> Zac Reaney-Barker wrote:
> >
> > I was just wondering if anyone could explain to me the differences
> > between Epiphone's Sheraton and ES-335.. They look a heck of a lot
> > alike, but I've noticed somewhat of a difference in tone (maybe it was
> > just the models I was demoing).. Other than headstock and metal plating
> > on the hardware, what's the difference?
> > Thanks.
> > -Zac
I have a Dot and two Rivieras, and a pal of mine has a Sheraton II. While
I don't have as much hands-on time w/ the Sheraton, my experience w/ it is
that it is much closer in construction quality to the Riviera than the
Dot, and I find the Riviera to be a far superior guitar to the Dot. The
main reason for this is the neck.
Even though the two guitars have the same nominal neck width, in fact the
Dot is wider. Every Dot I have picked up (and I have been researching
since I got my own) has a badly shaped squarish-chunky neck. The nuts seem
to be slotted for a smaller neck, so that the two E strings are set so far
in from the outer edges of the neck that it makes the guitar uncomfortable
to play. The shape of the neck itself compounds this problem by being more
square than round, with shoulders that wear out my hand after I play for a
little while. The finish on the fretboard is also rough enough to make
smooth string bends very difficult. The narrower width and rounder profile
of the Riviera neck, on the other hand, suits my hand very well, and the
finish on the fretboard is smooth enough that I don't notice it as a
problem.
The Dot also uses cheaper electronics (switches, jacks, capacitors),
cheaper tuners, and the pickups don't sound as good to me as the Riviera,
though the one I actually use is loaded w/ Gibson Reissue PAFs and a
Gibson wiring harness. The tuners on my Riviera are stock.
Though I hope it is clear from this post that I am pulling no punches in
my evaluation of these guitars, I should add that I am an Epiphone
endorser and all these guitars were given to me by Epiphone. I signed no
papers and made no promises of promotion, and all that was asked of me
when I took them was that I play them whenever I felt like it. I make my
living playing guitar. I still use and get compliments on the Riviera all
the time. The Dot sits in my closet.
gre...@hotmail.com
Yes it was HOLEman, I'm not wasting any more of my time or qualifying
myself to you or the kids and amateurs you've managed to bring into
your fold. Most of the dozen or so emails I've received about you have
said the same thing.."don't bother, the guy's an idiot"..so I'm going
to concede the rest of this argument to you. Obviously you aren't in a
position to own anything more than what you have and it isn't fair of
me to knock the many young people and hobbyist players that use
Epiphone products to their satifaction in order that I might beat you
at this pissing contest but you made a list of your equipment that you
claim to at one time or another posessed so I'm going to make a list
of what I currently own and while this is sooooo childish I also hope
that anyone also owning and appreciating these instruments and wants
to discuss them will do so.(as that is why I came here in the first
place) As I said..this is what I have now..I don't have the space or
the memory (head and hard drive) to remember everything I've ever
owned
1. The basis of this contentious repartee- 1987 Gibson Custom Shop
ES-335 -Blond, highly figured maple- 9.9 (near mint)
2. 1957 Gibson Les Paul Custom- Black early PAF three pickup model-
8.0 (has some wear)
3. 1970 Gibson Les Paul Custom- White, now faded perfectly to
yellow-7.0 Very worn as I used this as my number one stage guitar for
15 years
4. 1967 Epiphone Riviera-sunburst-8.0 really nice American made budget
alternative to the ES-335's but has the Epi Mini- Humbuckers giving it
a different sound quality
5. 1965 Gibson SG Standard - Cherry mahogany- Small pickguard 8.0
-also in pretty nice shape.
6. 1961 Gibson Les Paul SG Custom- White - 6.5 Not in the greatest
shape but has PAF's.. I also used this guitar on stage quite a bit.
7. 1962 Gibson Barney Kessel Custom- Sunburst- 9.0 almost mint..I've
had this guitar for quite some time but haven't played it that much.
It was a gift from someone now dead so maybe some day when the
sentimentality wears off I'll sell this one.
8. !964 Gibson ES-125 CD- sunburst- 8.0 nice shape..I bought it to see
if I liked using the full sized ES-175 guitars without making the
expensive purchase of one...it's..ok
9. 1962 Fender (yes..he also likes Fenders) Stratocaster-
white/rosewood fretboard-8.5..really nice shape..In 1973 I traded a
brand new L-6S to a kid for a re-painted '57 Strat (everyone thought I
was crazy to trade a brand new guitar for a old ratty Strat) and then
traded the '57 back to the original owner for the '62 which was and
still is in close to mint shape.
10. 1991 Fender American Standard Strat- Black/maple fretboard-8.0-
just a stock Strat bought with number 11 for a studio project at the
time.
11. 1991 Fender American Standard Strat- Antique Whie/rosewood
fretboard-8.0..see above
12. 1990 Fender Japanese Import Stratocaster-candy apple
red/maple-8.0- I changed the pick ups and set it up for bottle neck
playing.
13. Date unknown 50's Fender Telecaster-butterscotch and bare wood-5.0
very rough looking but very playable Tele from the 50's...SCREAMS !!!
14. 1966 Fender Jazz Bass- white/rosewood fretboard with dots-8.0-
really good shape..the '91 Strat above was bought as a sort of match
to this but the bass has a headstock painted to match the body.
15.1983 ESP Jazz Bass copy White/rosewood fretboard with dots- changed
pickups to Fenders. Bought as back up to '66 Jazz bass when I was
playing bass in a band in the 80's
16.1998 Gibson SJ-200- Antique natural- 1950's reissue..one month old
17. 1978 Martin HD-28- rosewood ect. -8.0- earlier reissue of the
"Bone" Martins..everyone needs a "28" in their arsenal.
18. 1974 Martin 00-28- rosewood ect-7.5- nice little guitar to have
lying around and pick up to play when the mood strikes..deceiving loud
and full ranged for a smaller guitar.
19. 1977 Epiphone Japanese Import 12 String- Mahogany body/plywood
top-Actually a very nice sounding guitars that I've had for over 20
years.
20. 1966 Epiphone Texan- mahogany ect- 7.5- the second real guitar I
ever owned..bought to replace my first real guitar..a 1950's J-45
which was stolen in 1967.
21. 1997 LaPatrie Presentation- Rosewood/spruce classical-really nice
under $500 Canadian made (same town as the Seagulls) solid wood
guitar..highly recommended !!
22. 1975 Ovation Custom Legend Deep Bowl-7.5 electric/acoustic 12
string- used for many years on stage and has some rough spots.
23. 1978 Alvarez 5059 Martin Pre-war bone copy- The night before I was
going to buy the Martin I was discussing the alterations I was going
to make to the Martin so I could use it on stage (Internal mounted
condenser mic/piezo pick up with on board pre-amp and blend
controls).. A vintage dealer friend of mine upon hearing this cringed
and convinced me to buy the Alvarez and do the dirty deeds to it and
save the Martin which I did...acoustically it sounds like crap but
electrified it sounds pretty good.
24. Regal Dobro- cheap dobro I bought to fool around with
Amps
NO REISSUES
'62 Fender Showman-White/brownface-2/12" cabinet (Stage amp for years)
'66 Fender Deluxe Reverb-MINT
'67 Fender Deluxe Reverb
'66 Fender Super Reverb
'66 Fender Tremolux/2-10" cabinet
'64 Fender Champ
'66 Fender Bassman/2-12 cabinet
'65 Fender Twin Reverb
'67 Ampeg B-15 bass amp
'70's Marshall Super Lead 100/ 4-12" half stack straight cabinet
'90 SWR Workingman's 15 bass amp
I've obtained this stuff over the course of 32 years and none of it
is for sale so please don't ask.
So you see Cujo...I'm not playing around trying to convince anyone
that my Korean Epiphone is a valid guitar or that my printed cicuit
board Fender is a wonderful amp..I don't have to and while I feel very
silly playing this game I just want you to know that there's someone
laughing their ass off at the things you believe and say (as if you
don't already realise they number in the thousands). I'm sure there
are plenty of people who'll say that Gibson or Fender or even Martin
quality is for shit but you can also bet these are the people playing
the Epiphones and Ibanezes and the Corts and the Hohners and if
someone were to give them one of the more upmarket guitars tomorrow
they'd become the biggest fan of that brand...unless it's some kid
that gets a Gibson for the price of a used Epiphone and wants to come
to a newgroup bitching about how Gibsons are such shit when obviously
he didn't think so when he jumped at the chance to buy one really
cheap...but he gets to reverse brag that he HAS a Gibson..and can
complain about their quality. blah blah blah..big deal kid..sell the
Gibson for more than you paid for it and let someone else who
appreciates it use it..and you can buy some Epiphone with mother of
toilet seat inlays and sit around talking about how you once had this
Gibson that was shit..yeah Satuday mornings at Guitar Center you can
find hoards of them ..spewing the same spiel...or if someone has to
give up thier upmarket guitar that brand will suddenly become shit in
their eyes and the down scale guitar they're now playing "just as
good"..yes, i've owned some questionable guitars from Gibson and
Fender and quite frankly I think Martin's are a bit over-rated..but I
can make that assessment having owned them and having a point of
perspective that isn't either justification or denial. Holeman if you
once owned the equipment you say you did why is it that all you seem
to know about is your Samick?..and why did you get rid of all of
it..surely that Epiphone couldn't be so almighty that it replaced all
of that?? you know what I think Cujo? I think you were some fat ugly
kid (probably pissed the bed until you were 36) that no one ever liked
and you grew into a sad, opinionated man who now has nothing more to
do than hang around in newgroups where his opinion isn't able to be
directly impugned... where he has time to go research any questions
brought to him and then can come back as though he had the knowledge
first hand..where he finds others to elicit support from to validate
his completely skewed ideas... I don't believe you ever stepped on a
stage except maybe to accept the the award in middle school (we know
you didn't make it to high school) for "Most Likely To Alienate Anyone
He Meets With His Total lack Of Intellect and Big Opinionated Mouth" I
can't get over how many people wrote me to warn me about trying to
discuss anything with you..you know what it seems? it seems that
anyone with a reasonable opinion and a valid perspective no longer
wastes their time on you and all you have is kids, and newbies and
other losers to back you up or even to share in any debate with you.
Well, I'm not going to waste my time responding to you but I will
expose each of your false and misleading statements directly to the
person you respond to and not give you the satisfaction of my direct
attention..so from now on expect that if I come across one of your
posts it will be torn to shreds and anything you say in response to me
ignored. I think you already realise that I'm not some newbie kid that
looks vacantly ahead and nods his head at hearing you spew your chunks
of opinionated garbage..and your method of debate exposes that
insurmountable insecurity ever present in your simple little mind as
you try desperatley to make Patrick Coleman actually listened to..and
believed...you are a clown..and a sad one..I actually pity someone so
incredibly lacking in social skills. so obviously deprived of any of
life's special pleasures. so devoid of any intellectual capacity..keep
posting Holeman..that's what they call you isn't it?..that's
cute...but I especially loved the "Go back in your bunker, things will
be fine when the Russians come" You're a joke and I can't believe
I've wasted so much time. I think about it and I wonder why I should
have to qualify myself to you but it was fun just letting you know
what you're up against...bar the door to the trailer Colehole you've
got Gregzy coming for you and Gregzy doesn't have to rely on bullshit
and fantasy to put you in your place you bottom feeding wannabe...
TONE !!!!!
>
>
>/-)
>
Greg Goldstein
are all still yapping.... I bought the Sheraton and like it very
much... even giged with it. Still a strat man at heart but it is a good
guitar for the money.
--
_________________________________________________________
"Money can't buy happiness. But it sure makes misery easier to live
with."
"Hard work pays off in the future. Laziness pays off now."
"Passion without precision yields chaos."
Matt Friedman
You know, I'm not a Gibson-basher. I've seen and played a lot of
Gibson instruments that have really impressed me. I do not own a
Gibson -- not because I can't afford one, but because I can't justify
spending $2,000 on an instrument that is only moderately "better" than
a $700 instrument, if at all. When you buy Gibson, YES, you do buy the
name, and the fact that it was built in the US, and along with it, you
get re-sale value. That's great if you're jingoistic about your
instruments and if you buy guitars as investments.
However, there IS a law of diminishing returns in guitar quality.
Paying $2000 rather than $1000 will NOT get you twice the instrument.
So buying Gibson rather than Epiphone does not buy you twice the
instrument.
On Fri, 05 Feb 1999 22:26:20 GMT, gre...@hotmail.com wrote:
>Obviously you aren't in a
>position to own anything more than what you have and it isn't fair of
>me to knock the many young people and hobbyist players...
A lot of professional musicians play Epiphones -- a lot of VERY GOOD
musicians.
And you... you listed, what, $100,000 to $200,000 worth of guitars
[most of which, I'm sure, you rarely play]. You are either a very
wealthy dilletante, or an EXTRAORDINARILY successful and wealthy
professional musician. In which case, I'd probably kow your name.
Do I know your name? I doubt it... in which case, you fit into the
first category.
MF
Patrick F. Coleman
**gregzy snipped**
You are a huge asshole.
In complete denial.
Twang!
/-)
Patrick F. Coleman
>Ooooohhhh... wooowwww.... you own LOTS of STUFF!
>You know, I'm not a Gibson-basher. I've seen and played a lot of
>Gibson instruments that have really impressed me. I do not own a
>Gibson -- not because I can't afford one, but because I can't justify
>spending $2,000 on an instrument that is only moderately "better" than
>a $700 instrument, if at all. When you buy Gibson, YES, you do buy the
>name, and the fact that it was built in the US, and along with it, you
>get re-sale value. That's great if you're jingoistic about your
>instruments and if you buy guitars as investments.
>However, there IS a law of diminishing returns in guitar quality.
>Paying $2000 rather than $1000 will NOT get you twice the instrument.
>So buying Gibson rather than Epiphone does not buy you twice the
>instrument.
>On Fri, 05 Feb 1999 22:26:20 GMT, gre...@hotmail.com wrote:
>>Obviously you aren't in a
>>position to own anything more than what you have and it isn't fair of
>>me to knock the many young people and hobbyist players...
>A lot of professional musicians play Epiphones -- a lot of VERY GOOD
>musicians.
>And you... you listed, what, $100,000 to $200,000 worth of guitars
>[most of which, I'm sure, you rarely play]. You are either a very
>wealthy dilletante, or an EXTRAORDINARILY successful and wealthy
>professional musician. In which case, I'd probably kow your name.
>Do I know your name? I doubt it... in which case, you fit into the
>first category.
>MF
I think the guys posting shows he's clearly a troll.
I doubt his professional experience, his ownership of the instruments
listed, and believe that mostly he's just got a hard on for me and
epiphone is just a means of wagging it around.
I like it.
I never had a nemesis before. Should be fun.
Twang!
/-)
Matt Friedman
Coleman) wrote:
>I think the guys posting shows he's clearly a troll.
>I doubt his professional experience, his ownership of the instruments
>listed, and believe that mostly he's just got a hard on for me and
>epiphone is just a means of wagging it around.
>I like it.
>I never had a nemesis before. Should be fun.
>Twang!
Go get 'im, Patrick -- Cry havoc and let slip the hounds of war! [Or
whatever... :-)]
MF
gre...@hotmail.com
>ES-335 -Blond, highly figured maple- 9.9 (near mint)- purchased 11/98-cost-$2700 and it's not an 1987 -it's a 1997.typo sorry
>2. 1957 Gibson Les Paul Custom- Black early PAF three pickup model-
>8.0 (has some wear)-purchased 5-1981- $3500 (sold 1969 Corvette Stingray I had restored)
>3. 1970 Gibson Les Paul Custom- White, now faded perfectly to
>yellow-7.0 Very worn as I used this as my number one stage guitar for
>15 years-Purchased 6-74 $475
>4. 1967 Epiphone Riviera-sunburst-8.0 really nice American made budget
>alternative to the ES-335's but has the Epi Mini- Humbuckers giving it
>a different sound quality Purchased- 4-72 -$350
>5. 1965 Gibson SG Standard - Cherry mahogany- Small pickguard 8.0
>-also in pretty nice shape.- purchased 5-83 - $675
>6. 1961 Gibson Les Paul SG Custom- White - 6.5 Not in the greatest
>shape but has PAF's.. I also used this guitar on stage quite a bit.-Purchased 8-74- $600
>7. 1962 Gibson Barney Kessel Custom- Sunburst- 9.0 almost mint..I've
>had this guitar for quite some time but haven't played it that much.-
>It was a gift from someone now dead so maybe some day when the
>sentimentality wears off I'll sell this one.-gift from dear friend (belonged to her father)
>8. !964 Gibson ES-125 CD- sunburst- 8.0 nice shape..I bought it to see
>if I liked using the full sized ES-175 guitars without making the
>expensive purchase of one...it's..ok- purchased 5-88 $275
>9. 1962 Fender (yes..he also likes Fenders) Stratocaster-
>white/rosewood fretboard-8.5..really nice shape..In 1973 I traded a
>brand new L-6S to a kid for a re-painted '57 Strat (everyone thought I
>was crazy to trade a brand new guitar for a old ratty Strat) and then
>traded the '57 back to the original owner for the '62 which was and
>still is in close to mint shape.-think I've already explained L6S cost $475
>10. 1991 Fender American Standard Strat- Black/maple fretboard-8.0-
>just a stock Strat bought with number 11 for a studio project at the
>time.-purchased 3-93 -$575
>11. 1991 Fender American Standard Strat- Antique Whie/rosewood
>fretboard-8.0..see above- $575....I also traded in a mid 70's Telecaster and got $375 credit toward purchase
>12. 1990 Fender Japanese Import Stratocaster-candy apple
>red/maple-8.0- I changed the pick ups and set it up for bottle neck- Purchased 6-94- $375
>playing.
>13. Date unknown 50's Fender Telecaster-butterscotch and bare wood-5.0
>very rough looking but very playable Tele from the 50's...SCREAMS !!! purchased 6-78 $250
>14. 1966 Fender Jazz Bass- white/rosewood fretboard with dots-8.0-
>really good shape..the '91 Strat above was bought as a sort of match
>to this but the bass has a headstock painted to match the body.- purchased 3-77- $575 plus SG bass trade in
>15.1983 ESP Jazz Bass copy White/rosewood fretboard with dots- changed
>pickups to Fenders. Bought as back up to '66 Jazz bass when I was
>playing bass in a band in the 80's Purchased 2-83 - $400
>16.1998 Gibson SJ-200- Antique natural- 1950's reissue..one month old $2300(along with the ES-335 with money
from inheiritance as re-investment)
>17. 1978 Martin HD-28- rosewood ect. -8.0- earlier reissue of the
>"Bone" Martins..everyone needs a "28" in their arsenal.- purchased 6-87 $975
>18. 1974 Martin 00-28- rosewood ect-7.5- nice little guitar to have
>lying around and pick up to play when the mood strikes..deceiving loud
>and full ranged for a smaller guitar. Purchased 1-78 -$575
>19. 1977 Epiphone Japanese Import 12 String- Mahogany body/plywood
>top-Actually a very nice sounding guitars that I've had for over 20
>years. purchased 6-79 -$175
>20. 1966 Epiphone Texan- mahogany ect- 7.5- the second real guitar I
>ever owned..bought to replace my first real guitar..a 1950's J-45
>which was stolen in 1967. bought by my parents with insurance money from stolen j-45 ..12-67 $225
>21. 1997 LaPatrie Presentation- Rosewood/spruce classical-really nice
>under $500 Canadian made (same town as the Seagulls) solid wood
>guitar..highly recommended !! purchased 8-98 $435
> 22. 1975 Ovation Custom Legend Deep Bowl-7.5 electric/acoustic 12
>string- used for many years on stage and has some rough spots. Purchased 10-81 $375
>23. 1978 Alvarez 5059 Martin Pre-war bone copy- The night before I was
>going to buy the Martin I was discussing the alterations I was going
>to make to the Martin so I could use it on stage (Internal mounted
>condenser mic/piezo pick up with on board pre-amp and blend
>controls).. A vintage dealer friend of mine upon hearing this cringed
>and convinced me to buy the Alvarez and do the dirty deeds to it and
>save the Martin which I did...acoustically it sounds like crap but
>electrified it sounds pretty good.-purchased 6-87 $225
>24. Regal Dobro- cheap dobro I bought to fool around with purchased -7-95 $375
>
>Amps
>NO REISSUES
>'62 Fender Showman-White/brownface-2/12" cabinet (Stage amp for years)-purchased 1972 $500
>'66 Fender Deluxe Reverb-MINT gift from my wife 3-83- $175
>'67 Fender Deluxe Reverb purchased 6-83 - $145
>'66 Fender Super Reverb-purchased 6-80- $225
>'66 Fender Tremolux/2-10" cabinet- Gift from my son..given to him this one was free
>'64 Fender Champ- purchased 6-74 $50
>'66 Fender Bassman/2-12 cabinet- Purchased 9-85 $400
>'65 Fender Twin Reverb-Purchased 6-86- $575
>'67 Ampeg B-15 bass amp- Purchased spring 1972 I think it was about $150
>'70's Marshall Super Lead 100/ 4-12" half stack straight cabinet-$1200 purchased 5-81 at the same time as 57 Paul with money from selling my vette
>'90 SWR Workingman's 15 bass amp- Bought used $350 6-96
>
> I've obtained this stuff over the course of 32 years and none of it
>is for sale so please don't ask.
>
My math says that I spent about $21,230 ...or about what the 1996
Z-28 cost I bought as a toy in 1996 ..and this was over the course of
over 30 years and that includes money I spent re-investing an
inheiritance and buying other toys from selling another toy..from 1971
-1979 and from 1981-84 and 1987-89 and from 1991-1995 I played in
working bar and club bands both part and fulltime and no, I never made
any real money in music..just enough to finance my toy buying..I was
somewhat successful with my vintage guitar side business from 1983-
1995..again allowed me to play some nice instruments while waiting to
sell them...and I worked in quality engineering for General
Motors...and I was a cost estimator/ negotiator for The US Postal
Service in growth management/structure procurement..so I didn't have
to rely on music for my money and my wife is a surgical coordinator so
We're comfortable but I'm not really at all wealthy and not anything
but a retired hack bar band guitar player ... if my instruments are
valued at what you say they are and I've showed you that I purchased
over the course of time then I guess maybe there's a lesson to be
learned here...maybe you should buy that used Gibson rather than the
new Epiphone..because in the long run..true value wins..so now where
did you get your money to buy your guitars besides borrowing from your
girl friend and stealing out of Mum's pocketbook? we know that
Holeman got his from welfare..otherwise he could afford something more
No more of this shit...I don't have to prove anything to anyone..If
you want to believe I'm full of shit fine...but I think you know that
I'm not bullshitting and that's what really bugs you...and makes me
feel sooo good...and like I said...if those instruments are worth what
you say...I must have done something right...and had you listened to
me...you might have learned something but no, jump in line behind
Holeman polish your little Korean Epiphones and know that Gregzy is
somewhere shaking his head and thinking what a bunch of putzes...as he
wonders about getting a Les Paul Standard in the spring when he sells
the 20' Searay that now since his kids have grown and left home
doesn't get used..No more of this nonesense..anyone with real guitars
out that that want to discuss the finer points of them I welcome your
responses...what pisses me off is that in 1974 when I bought the white
Les Paul Custom I could have had a nice 1960 flame top Standard for
$1800 but bought that silly ass Corvette instead...Whatever
kids...like I said, anyone that knows what they're talking about I
love to discuss these things...the pretenders can just keep
pretending.
TONE !!!!!
Matt
>Heritage H535..Yes, I've seen people on stage with Epiphones and my
>first thought isn't "wow that guy is a pro and he plays an Epiphone!"
voices his chords;or, wow, that guy has incredible phrasing, or, that
guy isn't very good...I can't remember the last time I judged someone
for the equipment they played, and not what I was hearing out of that
equipment....
Now here is the question.....The "pros" that you have seen playing
these guitars...did they sound bad? Did thier guitars hinder your
musical enjoyment? Would you have experienced the music more if it
were a gibson? Do all great players play expensive guitars? Is that
what it takes to be good? Just wondering...Matt
Kamchak Tuchuk
guitar11@$aloha$.com (Matt) wrote:
>Your first thought should have been- Wow, check out how that guy
>voices his chords;or, wow, that guy has incredible phrasing, or, that
>guy isn't very good...I can't remember the last time I judged someone
>for the equipment they played, and not what I was hearing out of that
>equipment....
>Now here is the question.....The "pros" that you have seen playing
>these guitars...did they sound bad? Did thier guitars hinder your
>musical enjoyment? Would you have experienced the music more if it
>were a gibson? Do all great players play expensive guitars? Is that
>what it takes to be good? Just wondering...Matt
Good call, Matt......
!Koi
But you are trying so very, very hard...and you're such a boor, and a
bore.
> know that Gregzy is somewhere shaking his head and thinking what a bunch of putzes
Do you really delude yourself so, to think that anyone thinks of you
after reading your childish gearhead diatribe? We've all heard the
same schtick before from car afficionados to stamp collectors.
Frankly, I couldn't care less about that Mozambique Purple (very
obcsure "I Married Joan" ref. Let me know if anyone else remembers
this episode "Ipsi Dipsi! Ipsi Dipsi!") or your 19xx Gibson xxx. We're
not looking for "nirvana in a guitar" and getting our jollies from
"lightly brushing the strings" and jacking off during the ring of the
sustain. ( I personally, and musically, have no use for sustain beyond
what the Epiphones provide )
You began the vile spew. Patrick has been nothing but nice to
virtually everyone here, and you got a hard-on because you didn't
agree. So what? What have you proven? That Michael Collins agrees with
you that the intrument is more important than the music. Oh yeah, Harf
harfed up a lung once or twice too. So, you win. The world agrees with
you. Mike C. and Harf, that is. Congratulations. Tell your wife. Be
proud.
The rest of us poor schmucks can just have fun for little money. Just
let us wallow in our delusions and you can live your life the way you
like. Thanks.
Joe
Greg Goldstein
Matt wrote:
> Now here is the question.....The "pros" that you have seen playing
> these guitars...did they sound bad? Did thier guitars hinder your
> musical enjoyment? Would you have experienced the music more if it
> were a gibson? Do all great players play expensive guitars? Is that
> what it takes to be good? Just wondering...Matt
Two thumbs up to Matt.... you can have a million dollar guitar and it
will sound like crap if you can't play it.... or you can sound great on a
less expensive one if you take the time to LEARN AND PRACTICE. John Lee
Hooker seems to do OK with his Sheraton....
gre...@hotmail.com
Why is it the only ones singing the praises of Epiphones are Epiphone
owners? And yet again the point is missed in favour of the agenda. I
don't believe that any instrument is going to be the ultimate
arbitrator of one's musical ability. If you sound shitty on an
Epiphone you're going to probably sound sound shitty on a Gibson
Citation or to remove the Gibson element..a D'Angelico...and likewise
someone who can make those instruments sing is going to make an
Epiphone or any guitar that can remain tempered and tuned sound good.
I fully realise that not everyone is in a position even if
financially able, to buy higher end guitars. If you notice the title
of the thread you'll see that it says "Epiphone Sheraton II vs. ES-
335"...on that basis the number one factor is price...then it's like
qualities..then it's difference in qualities ( and by qualities I'm
refering to the tonal characteristics , playability factors, feel, and
vibe of the instrument not the quality control issues)..then it's
personal aesthetics. As with anything I think it's only human nature
to defend the choices we make or to somehow amplify those choices to
what should be "The Standard" or status quo. As I said the title was
"Epi vs. ES-335...from a position of some experience in the field I
said the diference was one was an amateur level instrument that with
upgrades can become a viable professional instrument and the other was
the industry (not my) standard for professional level semi-acoustic
guitars. If you choose to disagree with that I can offer my list of
Gibson semi-acoustic users and endorsees and we can put it up against
Keb' Mo' (whom I enjoy) and John Lee Hooker (whom while never a fan of
I always appreciated his role in the blues) and even add to that list
Noel Gallagher (whom I don't think has done anything original but
won't judge his musical abilities). Now the other list looks a bit
different :
1 Eric Clapton
2 B.B. King
3. Keith Richard
4. Chuck Berry
5. Larry Carlton
6. Dave Edmunds
7. Eric Johnson
8. Robbie McIntosh
9. Gary Moore
10. Alex Lifeson
And this is just a cross section of different musicians in different
styles of music...the list is actually seemingly endless...and only
goes to the point of these particular artists choice. No one should
buy a guitar simply because so and so uses it but if we're going to
bring that issue in then I think a quick look at the two lists reveals
a great deal rather quickly... one of the guitars has a bit higher
star attraction than the other...which also means squat..so the issue
of "well, Keb' Mo' uses one" also means squat..
Now I've seen a lot of people praising the Epiphone guitars and I
fully admit my interest in them until I was frustrated by the guitars
not really being what "I" expected...and by the time I did the
improvements (which I've also noticed seems to be the qualifier in the
Epiphone owner's posts "yeah, after I changed the pick ups and the
pots and the nut and the tuners and put Gibson stuff on it it wasn't
bad") it wasn't worth it to me and if I wanted a semi-acoustic to use
playing out where I wasn't as concerned about damage or theft it
probably made more sense to buy a standard model of a Gibson
second-hand or something such as a Heritage H-535 (which upon
examination proved to be an even better value than the Gibson or the
Epiphone in the "bang for buck" catagory).
When I made my list of equipment it wasn't intended to be a bragging
issue..it was in response to Coleman's list.....and I didn't see any
"'59 Bursts" or "Pre war Bones" or "White Penguins" there or anything
with the exception of a gift I received 25 years ago and my recent
personal indulgences made possible by an inheiritance (which I
said.."hey, I've got some unexpected extra money here and it should be
invested in something) that weren't just working grade instruments
when I bought them. The '57 Paul was bought when I sold a car that had
been a project and I made some money from it..The SJ-200 and the
ES-335 were the first brand new Gibsons I've ever bought and had it
not been for a good friend of mine owning a Gibson dealership and
giving me a HUGE discount it wouldn't have happened...but I would have
bought some vintage-quality guitar..this is one way I've been planning
for my retirement and investing money for over 25 years. Most of the
amps were picked up for near nothing when I saw Fender coming out with
the PC board reissues and knew what that would mean to the actual
market. The other amps are ones I used in the band I played in. The
reason I bought Gibsons is because I'm not certain how long that
company is going to be in existence..I'm aware of some problems the
company is going through and I'm afraid much the same as Gretsch and
of course Epiphone it wil become Gibson in name only offering
imported instruments except at the most extreme high level..such as
the custom shop instruments. When that happens the demand for the
domestic instruments will skyrocket. Without going into the economic
factors involved, Gibson cannot sell an instrument at a profitable
price and maintain the level of quality one expects at that
price..I've heard all of the Gibson bashing and the Fender bashing
about how threir quality stinks and how it was so much better back
when...but this has been going on for lifetimes..it was always better
at some other point in time..and ten years from now they'll say it
wasn't as good then as it is now. The reason is simple...as each
technological advancement occurs in the manufacturing process
this is converted into profit by increasing productivity while
maintaining production costs..as other companies race to keep up
up with technology companies must find ways to remain
competitive...and man-labor intensive processes such as individual
construction of musical instruments becomes almost cost-prohibitive.
So instead of hand scalloping those braces they're popped out of a
machine..instead of hand lacqering and rubbing out that finish it's
sprayed on plastic with a gun..and if we need to produce 60 units
today whereas a year ago we only needed to produce 50 in order to meet
profit margins, or even to only remain competitive, we crank up
production and in the world of "statistical process control" we
develop a curve of acceptable standards where acceptable flaws are
increased expotentially with the increase in production and thus
profit..the result is lower overall quality at increased profitability
and for some companies..viability..couple this with the wide-spread
use of cheap overseas labor and soon domestic workers with a higher
standard of living can't be afforded and the result is the work is
done by "trained" workers making little and living in conditions that
anyone in North America would find deplorable..while the craft and art
of guitar making dies here. I've watched Coleman suck up to everyone
that comes in here and says they have either an Epiphone or a Hot Rod
Deluxe and criticise anyone who says those are less than stellar
choices..the only reason being is that he wants to believe he is the
only one capable of making a wise choice. Unfortunately I can say that
while adequate, neither of his choices are exceptional. The Epiphone
is an inexpensive imported guitar bearing little in common to that
which it attempts to emulate beyond appearance will not hold any
extraordiary re-sale value and certainly not appreciate. If he's
satisfied with it and it meets his requirements fine..but don't say
"it's as good as" or a better buy than" with no pre-established
criteria for making that determination besides personal opinion based
upon personal choice...I won't make any comments about the Hot Rod
Deluxe but take that question over in Alt.Guitars.Amps and see what
the consensus opinion is...I don't even want to go there. And for the
record...I love Fender amps and haven't plugged into anything but in
years except for my SWR bass amp which for the about same price as a
Fender BXR blows the Fender bass amps away..which again is only an
opinion..I'm not saying "Oh buy the SWR it's the end all to be all"
I'm saying drawing on my experience I suggest you give the SWR a
listen. But if someone then says..."you don't know what you're talking
about the Fender amp is the only one" I'm going to get real defencive
and pull out my reasons..and it won't be because Stanley Clarke once
sat a cup of coffee on a SWR amp. Obviously you are an Epiphone owner
who has found a like mind in the company of Coleman so this isn't
going to change any opinions you may have since that would require
that you question your own choices and it's far easy to find people
that agree with you and remain the same in your thinking than to
explore other avenues and that's fine. My posts aren't going to be
directed at people out to prove that the choices they made were the
best...and if you're satisfied with what you have you're fortunate
that it takes so little. Hopefully they'll be others here that
appreciate, even if they can't at this point afford, the history and
the art and the craft of fine instruments and there'll be detractors
with their stories of seeing a Gibson that had terrible paint and how
their Ibanez Gem kicks the shit out of PRS McCartys..to them I can
only hope for their future enlightenment. I never said I was wealthy
or famous or anything but a hack bar band guitar player but through
wise buying and knowing where the quality truly was I've been able to
amass a small collection that even by Coleman's estimation is
substantial and this was done one piece at a time...back when I needed
a second guitar in 1974 I at first was going to buy an Ibanez Artist
new which was quite similar to a Les Paul but cheaper of course and as
I recall it was around $350-400..and it had ah-baloney inlays and was
quite visually pleasing.and had humbucking- type pick ups ect..the
"up" was that a case cost about $50 more...well for about $150 more
they had an old Les Paul SG model in really good shape though not as
new or as colourful as the Ibanez..but I bought it instead...today the
Ibanez Artist has increased in price to about $700 and I turned down
$3000 for the SG and it's "really" used now. so I guess that was my
point in all of this..but no one wanted to listen..enjoy..I'm sorry it
put everyone off so much.
Gregzy
!Koi
blather. Glad you had time to write it.
Joe
dpie...@emerald.educ.kent.edu
> Do you work for Epiphone buddy. Take it easy. It's not Vietnam!!
> Ever wonder why a Corvette is more expensive than a Hyundai????
>
> Harf
Harf: Are you asking if it worth the difference or why it costs more? OR, is
it worthwhile to get the vet to drive my 100,000 miles a year to the various
the offices in town at 20 mpg verses the 40 mpg? These are all very different
questions.
Dale
-----------== Posted via Deja News, The Discussion Network ==----------
http://www.dejanews.com/ Search, Read, Discuss, or Start Your Own
AT
>
>>A lot of professional musicians play Epiphones -- a lot of VERY GOOD
>>musicians.
>
Me included...
I have a Gibson ES-135 and a Korean Epi Emperor Regent. Although I
love both guitars, quality wise I would have to say the Epi is better
than the Gibson. I use both for gigging. The Gibson had some serious
cosmetic flaws while the Epi is virtually perfect.
Patrick F. Coleman
>Me included...
Don't tell Greggzy that, he'll pee his pants.
*G*
Twang!
/-)
Mike Hartigan
> I have a Gibson ES-135 and a Korean Epi Emperor Regent. Although I
> love both guitars, quality wise I would have to say the Epi is better
> than the Gibson. I use both for gigging. The Gibson had some serious
> cosmetic flaws while the Epi is virtually perfect.
WRONG! You are obviously embarassed by your Epi and are trying to
justify your purchase, since you now realize that you should have bought
a 'real' guitar, instead of a piece of s*** built by poor, $1 per month
foreigners in sweatshops with no health insurance who don't know
anything about craftsmanship! Or maybe by machines! And plastic and
stuff!
(Not really -- just trying to get this thread going again ;-)
--
+-------------------------------------///--------------------+
| "That all depends on | /// |
| what the definition | Mike Hartigan |
| of 'is' is." \\\| hart...@enteract.dot.com |
| -Bubba \\\/// |
+-------------------------------\\\/-------------------------+
peatea
<hart...@enteract.dot.com> wrote:
> In alt.guitar AT <at7...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>
> > I have a Gibson ES-135 and a Korean Epi Emperor Regent. Although I
> > love both guitars, quality wise I would have to say the Epi is better
> > than the Gibson. I use both for gigging. The Gibson had some serious
> > cosmetic flaws while the Epi is virtually perfect.
>
> WRONG! You are obviously embarassed by your Epi and are trying to
> justify your purchase, since you now realize that you should have bought
> a 'real' guitar, instead of a piece of s*** built by poor, $1 per month
> foreigners in sweatshops with no health insurance who don't know
> anything about craftsmanship! Or maybe by machines! And plastic and
> stuff!
>
> (Not really -- just trying to get this thread going again ;-)
>
Even though I am a happy Epi Doubleneck owner, I don't think much of Sheritons.
They are pretty but they are certainly not a Gibson ES 335. The frets are
too high and are prone to pulling loose, the gold hardware is very thin and
wears off quickly, the pickups are microphonic and screech at high volumes.
But on the otherhand I once had a Gibson ES 335 12 string that was
untunable. A friend has an Ibanez Artist model 335 copy that I think is
better that Gibson or Epiphone. I love my doubleneck with PAF's on the 12
string and T500/396R on the 6 string. Great guitar. It puts the Gibsons
to shame. It is soooo damned heavy though.
Pt
Patrick F. Coleman
>In article <79unnq$suq$1...@eve.enteract.com>, Mike Hartigan
><hart...@enteract.dot.com> wrote:
>> In alt.guitar AT <at7...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>>
>> > I have a Gibson ES-135 and a Korean Epi Emperor Regent. Although I
>> > love both guitars, quality wise I would have to say the Epi is better
>> > than the Gibson. I use both for gigging. The Gibson had some serious
>> > cosmetic flaws while the Epi is virtually perfect.
>>
>> WRONG! You are obviously embarassed by your Epi and are trying to
>> justify your purchase, since you now realize that you should have bought
>> a 'real' guitar, instead of a piece of s*** built by poor, $1 per month
>> foreigners in sweatshops with no health insurance who don't know
>> anything about craftsmanship! Or maybe by machines! And plastic and
>> stuff!
>>
>> (Not really -- just trying to get this thread going again ;-)
>>
>Even though I am a happy Epi Doubleneck owner, I don't think much of Sheritons.
Sheratons.
>They are pretty but they are certainly not a Gibson ES 335. The frets are
>too high
Mine aren't too high at all.
> and are prone to pulling loose,
Four years on it now, not a problem even remotely resembling this.
Furthermore, give me more than one report.
You saw an epi sheraton with a loose fret so you now say they are
'prone' to pulling up?
sure.
> the gold hardware is very thin and
>wears off quickly,
four years running and it's only worn through where I rest my finger
for fingerpicking. A chromed gibson cover would wear as quickly.
>the pickups are microphonic and screech at high volumes.
so who's don't?
I crank my Sheraton via the RP7 into a Fender Hot Rod Deluxe, loud, in
my apartment, and the only squeal I get is exactly what I'd expect.
they may tend toward feedback a bit more than a gibson or duncan, but
not very damned much.
and all you have to do is learn to play what you got, you know.
>But on the otherhand I once had a Gibson ES 335 12 string that was
>untunable.
Yes. But you wouldn't say gibson es335 12 strings are all untunable.
I've played more than one, with mahogany neck, that was hard to play
because it was so flimsy any hand or wrist or arm pressure at all bent
the neck and knocked it out of tune.
If I LIKED the guitar I would have learned to play around that.
>A friend has an Ibanez Artist model 335 copy that I think is
>better that Gibson or Epiphone.
I just saw an Ibanez archtop f hole in a local store for around five
hundred bucks.
I though it was funny.
> I love my doubleneck with PAF's on the 12
>string and T500/396R on the 6 string. Great guitar. It puts the Gibsons
>to shame. It is soooo damned heavy though.
>Pt
I'll always jump in on these things... I never try to reperesent the
good luck I've had with mine as what everyone will expect. Like with
any guitar BRAND or MODEL you'll find better examples and worse.
All the sheratons I've seen and played were just fine.
All the complaints I've heard were pretty much what I'd expect in
their price range from anyone, and what I know happens well beyond
their price range.
That's why your epi with different pickups makes you happy.
You kept what you had, changed what you didn't like.
ALL.. I repeat.. ALL the guitars I've played which belonged to my
bandmates.. vintage or more recent issues of Fenders, Peaveys, Ricks
and Gibsons, had problems of one sort or another, were modified in
subtle and gross fashion, had action I personally wasn't happy with,
etc.
ALL of them.
This, to me is where epi shines in a way that a gibson can't
duplicate.
You can make affordable changes and have just as much guitar, .. not
by priceline or bragline.. but by sound, by looks, by playability, and
there's no reason they won't last.
You can have just as good a sound as the bolt neck fender players,
just as good as the set neck gibsons... and people who don't realize
that many many many less than perfect guitars are responsible for the
many many many songs they like have a problem.
rant rant rant.
Twang!
I been trolled!
/-)
Horroresq
--
New Story! The After-death
http://www.visionet.org/~nickle/index-7.htm
Horroresq. Online horror fiction.
http://www.visionet.org/~nickle
--
-
Mike Hartigan wrote in message <79unnq$suq$1...@eve.enteract.com>...
>In alt.guitar AT <at7...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>
>> I have a Gibson ES-135 and a Korean Epi Emperor Regent. Although I
>> love both guitars, quality wise I would have to say the Epi is better
>> than the Gibson. I use both for gigging. The Gibson had some serious
>> cosmetic flaws while the Epi is virtually perfect.
>
>WRONG! You are obviously embarassed by your Epi and are trying to
>justify your purchase, since you now realize that you should have bought
>a 'real' guitar, instead of a piece of s*** built by poor, $1 per month
>foreigners in sweatshops with no health insurance who don't know
>anything about craftsmanship! Or maybe by machines! And plastic and
>stuff!
>
>(Not really -- just trying to get this thread going again ;-)
>
Carlo Pipitone
wrote:
>I was just wondering if anyone could explain to me the differences
>between Epiphone's Sheraton and ES-335.. They look a heck of a lot
>alike, but I've noticed somewhat of a difference in tone (maybe it was
>just the models I was demoing).. Other than headstock and metal plating
>on the hardware, what's the difference?
>Thanks.
>-Zac
A long thread has followed this message, not always nice nor serene.
It's too bad that people sometimes seems to loose objectivity due to
be a "fan" of whatever.
Anyway I'd like to give my two-cent on the matter.
I've always desired a semi-acoustic guitar, since most of my blues
heroes play one. An ES-335 seemed to be one of the best choices
(otherwise why do so many blues guiatrists use it?)
But... it's for rich! Not for my pocket!
So I started to look at Epiphones, that are used by several blues
players (I've seen photos of Magic Sam, J.L. Hooker, Otis Rush, John
Primer, Duke Robillard and others with such guitars).
I decided to buy one, so I started browsing NGs and posting messages
to try to understand if mine was a good idea (also because in my town
only relatively few guitar models are stocked by shops, thus I hadn't
the chance to try several different guitars of that type).
Later I had the chance to try most Epi semi acoustics somewhere else,
and as a whole I liked them.
To be true, NGs postings didn't help me a lot in my decision: some
messages gave enthusiastic comments, some others talked of Epis as of
pieces of shit, or at least as instruments that need to be carefully
checked for fabric errors before you buy one.
At last I had the chance, during a trip in UK, to buy a sunburst
Riviera for a very good price, especially if compared with Italian
prices: about 570 US$ w/HSC.
Well, I *really* like everything of it: look, feel, sound, playability
(except a too high action, which can be easily adjusted). The tone
pots work fairly well and smoothly, and the vol pots are perfect.
I just hope that these features last in time!
I would have liked a Sheraton more, for the cosmetics, but I found
that Riviera... and I got it!
To summarize: Epiphone semi-acoustics are very nice guitars if you
can't afford a much more expensive Gibson, IMHO.
P.S.: I never played an ES-335, so I can't really compare, but... who
cares? My Epiphone is a great guitar, I could afford it and I'm
enjoying it.
Cheers,
Carlo
gre...@hotmail.com
wrote:
And everything you have said and how you have said it I could not
agree with you more. I hope you have many years of enjoyment with
your guitar and that your playing brings enjoyment to others. If you
are happy and satisfied with what you've purchased then the right
choice was made. It is difficult to get a straight answer when we let
our egos get in the way here in the newsgroup and suddenly the issue
at hand gets lost in favour of promoting our views on everything but
the issue at hand. And very often factual statements are made that
serve our argument rather than accurately portraying the facts. I
apologise for my part in your previous confusion. It sounds as if
you're happy and that the guitar meets your needs...and therefore it
sounds like you've made a good choice. No, Epiphones are not pieces of
shit...they, like any guitar whether it be Gibson or Fender or any
brand can have their problems. If you're careful and look it over
everything should be just fine and you should do that with any
guitar..or anything that you buy..not just Epiphones. It sounds like
you're happy and that you have a nice guitar. Enjoy it..and only worry
about whether it makes you happy.
Gregzy
PS...IMHO The Rivieras are my Epiphones of choice because I prefer
the sound of a mahogany neck. I also happen to own an older Riviera
and my only complaint is that when I get lazy I rest the side of my
hand behind the bridge on the strings and everything goes sharp ..it
just took me a little getting used to. Enoy your new instrument.
peatea
I have owned and played Fenders, Rickenbackers and Gibsons for over 30
years now and I am quite happy with American guitars. Receintly I decided
to buy a new guitar for the first time in many years and found the prices
to be outrageous.
After playing all the new models I could get my hands on I found Epiphones
(top of line models) to be at least as good an the expensive models. I did
buy an Epiphone and I am very happy with it. Now my old American guitars
sit in the closet most of the time.
Pt
kevv...@aol.com
> At last I had the chance, during a trip in UK, to buy a sunburst
> Riviera for a very good price, especially if compared with Italian
> prices: about 570 US$ w/HSC.
>
> Well, I *really* like everything of it: look, feel, sound, playability
> (except a too high action, which can be easily adjusted). The tone
> pots work fairly well and smoothly, and the vol pots are perfect.
> I just hope that these features last in time!
>
> I would have liked a Sheraton more, for the cosmetics, but I found
> that Riviera... and I got it!
>
> To summarize: Epiphone semi-acoustics are very nice guitars if you
> can't afford a much more expensive Gibson, IMHO.
>
> P.S.: I never played an ES-335, so I can't really compare, but... who
> cares? My Epiphone is a great guitar, I could afford it and I'm
> enjoying it.
>
> Cheers,
> Carlo
Ditto, except for pining for a Sheraton. I just got a Riviera in that
boss-ass aqua, w/Bigsby, and the thing kills. I've also played a 335, and the
Epi is, if you get a good one (of which there are many) about 80 percent of
the 335, bone stock. Put on something cool like some Duncan '59s and some
Grover pegs, and you've saved a ton of money. Sure, the resale value will be
in the toilet, but as long as you don't think of a guitar as a commodity,
that's a non-issue.
I had mine set up with a nice, low action, and it's great. The mahogany neck
makes the deal, too. As Mr. Coleman would say, "Twang," indeed!
Kevin Williams
Southpaw
>At last I had the chance, during a trip in UK, to buy a sunburst
>Riviera for a very good price, especially if compared with Italian
>prices: about 570 US$ w/HSC.
>
>Well, I *really* like everything of it: look, feel, sound, playability
>(except a too high action, which can be easily adjusted). The tone
>pots work fairly well and smoothly, and the vol pots are perfect.
>I just hope that these features last in time!
>
>I would have liked a Sheraton more, for the cosmetics, but I found
>that Riviera... and I got it!
>
>To summarize: Epiphone semi-acoustics are very nice guitars if you
>can't afford a much more expensive Gibson, IMHO.
>
>P.S.: I never played an ES-335, so I can't really compare, but... who
>cares? My Epiphone is a great guitar, I could afford it and I'm
>enjoying it.
>
>Cheers,
>Carlo
Good man Carlo, I've had my fair share of "lesser name" guitars
(Marlin, Mansfield, Takamini, Yamaha, Hagstrom, to name a few.)
and all of them gave me some satisfaction.
All you really have to do is set them up properly. I played a
friend's Martin a few times and didn't like the heavy string gauge and
high action. Same for another friend's Gibson. A lot of it boils
down to personal taste and how you can make that new guitar sing.
Take care
SP
Peter Gay
juan
juan
Peter Gay
P
Gallard
still
priced fairly.
Mike Hartigan
> And everything you have said and how you have said it I could not
> agree with you more. I hope you have many years of enjoyment with
> your guitar and that your playing brings enjoyment to others. If you
> are happy and satisfied with what you've purchased then the right
> choice was made. It is difficult to get a straight answer when we let
> our egos get in the way here in the newsgroup and suddenly the issue
> at hand gets lost in favour of promoting our views on everything but
> the issue at hand. And very often factual statements are made that
> serve our argument rather than accurately portraying the facts. I
> apologise for my part in your previous confusion. It sounds as if
> you're happy and that the guitar meets your needs...and therefore it
> sounds like you've made a good choice. No, Epiphones are not pieces of
> shit...they, like any guitar whether it be Gibson or Fender or any
> brand can have their problems. If you're careful and look it over
> everything should be just fine and you should do that with any
> guitar..or anything that you buy..not just Epiphones. It sounds like
> you're happy and that you have a nice guitar. Enjoy it..and only worry
> about whether it makes you happy.
> Gregzy
You don't suppose that Carlo's confusion might have stemmed, in part,
from your post on 2/4/99 in which you called an Epi Sheraton "some poser
piece of shit", a "wannabe guitar", "a piece of shit guitar", or the
"bottom feeder of six strings"? Or when you told Mr. Coleman, in the
same post, "you're an ignorant a**hole and you don't deserve any better
of a guitar than you have", in reference to his Epi Sheraton II?
Just a thought.
--
+--------------------------------------///-------------------+
+ | /// |
+ Why is it always the guy with | Mike Hartigan |
+ the moustache and three twenty | hart...@enteract.dot.com |
+ dollar bills in his hatband? \\\/// |
+--------------------------------\\\/------------------------+
Patrick F. Coleman
>In alt.guitar gre...@hotmail.com wrote:
I'm glad you caught this, bud.. and glad it's crossposted to rmmg..
where gregzy has begun his campaign of lies and distortions anew.
It's nice to have this up as it saves folks the time of having to
peruse deja news for gregzys irrational nonsense.
And it's nice to see he's come around to at least trying to post
reasonably here about epis..... I hope he keeps at it until all the
crap is out of his system.
Twang!
>Just a thought.
>--
>+--------------------------------------///-------------------+
>+ | /// |
>+ Why is it always the guy with | Mike Hartigan |
>+ the moustache and three twenty | hart...@enteract.dot.com |
>+ dollar bills in his hatband? \\\/// |
>+--------------------------------\\\/------------------------+
>
/-)
gre...@hotmail.com
wrote:
>Just a thought.
>it's very possible and thus why I am now apologising to him for any confusion
I may have caused but that doesn't keep Holeman from being the
Epiphony poser he is....
Gregzy
Patrick F. Coleman
etc.
then he posts this.
LOL
gregzy.. you sucks, man.
Twang!
gre...@hotmail.com wrote:
>On 17 Feb 1999 22:34:44 GMT, Mike Hartigan <hart...@enteract.dot.com>
>wrote:
>>You don't suppose that Carlo's confusion might have stemmed, in part,
>>from your post on 2/4/99 in which you called an Epi Sheraton "some poser
>>piece of shit", a "wannabe guitar", "a piece of shit guitar", or the
>>"bottom feeder of six strings"? Or when you told Mr. Coleman, in the
>>same post, "you're an ignorant a**hole and you don't deserve any better
>>of a guitar than you have", in reference to his Epi Sheraton II?
>>
>>it's very possible and thus why I am now apologising to him for any confusion
> I may have caused but that doesn't keep Holeman from being the
>Epiphony poser he is....
>Gregzy
>>--
>>+--------------------------------------///-------------------+
>>+ | /// |
>>+ Why is it always the guy with | Mike Hartigan |
>>+ the moustache and three twenty | hart...@enteract.dot.com |
>>+ dollar bills in his hatband? \\\/// |
>>+--------------------------------\\\/------------------------+
>>
/-)
juan
withdrawn. True colors have a way of showing through.
gre...@hotmail.com wrote:
> On 17 Feb 1999 22:34:44 GMT, Mike Hartigan <hart...@enteract.dot.com>
> wrote:
>
> >In alt.guitar gre...@hotmail.com wrote:
> >
> >> And everything you have said and how you have said it I could not
> >> agree with you more. I hope you have many years of enjoyment with
> >> your guitar and that your playing brings enjoyment to others. If you
> >> are happy and satisfied with what you've purchased then the right
> >> choice was made. It is difficult to get a straight answer when we let
> >> our egos get in the way here in the newsgroup and suddenly the issue
> >> at hand gets lost in favour of promoting our views on everything but
> >> the issue at hand. And very often factual statements are made that
> >> serve our argument rather than accurately portraying the facts. I
> >> apologise for my part in your previous confusion. It sounds as if
> >> you're happy and that the guitar meets your needs...and therefore it
> >> sounds like you've made a good choice. No, Epiphones are not pieces of
> >> shit...they, like any guitar whether it be Gibson or Fender or any
> >> brand can have their problems. If you're careful and look it over
> >> everything should be just fine and you should do that with any
> >> guitar..or anything that you buy..not just Epiphones. It sounds like
> >> you're happy and that you have a nice guitar. Enjoy it..and only worry
> >> about whether it makes you happy.
> >> Gregzy
> >
> >You don't suppose that Carlo's confusion might have stemmed, in part,
> >from your post on 2/4/99 in which you called an Epi Sheraton "some poser
> >piece of shit", a "wannabe guitar", "a piece of shit guitar", or the
> >"bottom feeder of six strings"? Or when you told Mr. Coleman, in the
> >same post, "you're an ignorant a**hole and you don't deserve any better
> >of a guitar than you have", in reference to his Epi Sheraton II?
> >
> >Just a thought.
te...@ameritech.net
for the Gibson in a pawn shop last year in St Louis and 600.00 new
from GTR Center for my Sheraton...The sheraton is a beautiful looking
guitar and play nicely..the Gibson..well..it is just unbelivable...
Just my 2 cents...
Scott
On Wed, 03 Feb 1999 22:49:15 GMT, tw...@prairie.lakes.com (Patrick F.
Coleman) wrote:
>gre...@hotmail.com wrote:
>
>>On Wed, 03 Feb 1999 17:11:34 GMT, guitar11@$aloha$.com (Matt) wrote:
>
>>>Hi- Just thought I would throw my opinion in... I just bought a new
>>>epi dot, and it plays geat. Sure I would have wanted a gibson, but are
>>>they $1800 dollars better? I'm not sure about that. I play for a
>>>living, and my epi brings home the dough and makes just as much music
>>>as a Gibson would....fat tone....good intonation...good pickups. Are
>>>you a good player? You can make the epi work VERY easily....or are you
>>>a guitar collector who likes to talk about plastic this and bone that
>>>and finish and all the other stuff that people like to complain about
>>>when they can't play? No slam here, but I've seen it before....just my
>>>2 cents.
>>32 years...18 years full time pro.. retired for 9 years.and though I'm
>>a hack player..I do know my pentatonics from my mixolydians and given
>>the right atmosphere can even play chords and licks using my pinkie
>>and yes I collect guitars...for enjoyment and pleasure..My question
>>and argument isn't a slam at Epi owners..it's the idea that they are
>>identical...
>
>no one has claimed they were identical. you just read that in there on
>your own.
>
>>if the difference was only say $300 would you pay more for
>>a Gibson?
>
>it's not that much, it's far more.
>we deal in the real world here.
>
>>If the Dot works for you I think it's great and I appreciate
>>and understand your position but I also don't have you in my face
>>telling me I'm a butt munch for saying there's a difference.
>
>but you are a butt munch.
>
> The main
>>problem with the Epi was microphonic pups everything else was
>>fixable..I have an old set of PAFs I was going to pop in but the gutar
>>didn't seem worth it. My friend owns the shop and has sent almost all
>>of them back
>
>I don't believe you at all.
>
>I also get a very sizeable discount so I may still buy
>>one...just don't tell Pat..I do my own set ups and changing the pups
>>isn't anything (though not fun on a semi-acoustic without back
>>access).
>
>it's a cinch if you've done it before.
>I crab about it but mostly to warn beginners.
>Twang!
>>Gregzy
>
>
>/-)
>
peatea
te...@ameritech.net wrote:
> I have an ES-347 AND a Sheraton II...Both are nice axes..I paid 400.00
> for the Gibson in a pawn shop last year in St Louis and 600.00 new
> from GTR Center for my Sheraton...The sheraton is a beautiful looking
> guitar and play nicely..the Gibson..well..it is just unbelivable...
>
> Just my 2 cents...
> Scott
For some reason there has never been a really GOOD COPY of the ES335.
I like Epiphone but the Sheraton certainly is not an ES335. I agree that
the Sheraton is beautiful but beauty is only skin deep. The closest copy
that I have played is an Ibanez Artstar 120.
Pt
Jerome Engelberts
> I have an ES-347 AND a Sheraton II...Both are nice axes..I paid 400.00
> for the Gibson in a pawn shop last year in St Louis and 600.00 new
> from GTR Center for my Sheraton...The sheraton is a beautiful looking
> guitar and play nicely..the Gibson..well..it is just unbelivable...
>
> Just my 2 cents...
> Scott
>
I have to agree that, although goodlooking, the Sheraton is not a 335.
I've found that the main difference is in the maple vs. mahogany neck.
Having said that, the Epi's are certainly a great value. And if you want a
sound that compares better to a "real" ES335, get an Epi Riviera, which
does have a mahogany neck, and retails for around $600.
Just my two cents,
Jerome
--
"You can't hold no groove if you ain't got no pocket" (V. Wooten)
http://www.beezerk.com/nightmare.html
Don't forget to remove the NOSPAM from the return address.
Southpaw
>I have an ES-347 AND a Sheraton II...Both are nice axes..I paid 400.00
>for the Gibson in a pawn shop last year in St Louis and 600.00 new
>from GTR Center for my Sheraton...The sheraton is a beautiful looking
>guitar and play nicely..the Gibson..well..it is just unbelivable...
yeah, the Epis are an affordable guitar, but at the rate they are
stamping them out now, do you think their quality can be maintained?
Jeff Fischer
Sure they can, and if not, they will have a number 2 stamped on the head,
as many of them do when not passing the inspectors, then you get the same
guitar, cheaper price with what is usually a cosmetic flaw on them.
Southpaw
I wasn't referring to individual flaws, that happens on any assembly
line. By and large, major corporations eventually opt for less
expensive materials in order to turn a bigger profit. Sure the older
Epis are good guitars (Sheraton, Dot, etc) but you will eventually
see the quality decrease as the numbers increase.
sto...@ia-omni.com
>On Sun, 21 Feb 1999 01:06:08 GMT, te...@ameritech.net wrote:
>>I have an ES-347 AND a Sheraton II...Both are nice axes..I paid 400.00
>>for the Gibson in a pawn shop last year in St Louis and 600.00 new
>>from GTR Center for my Sheraton...The sheraton is a beautiful looking
>>guitar and play nicely..the Gibson..well..it is just unbelivable...
>yeah, the Epis are an affordable guitar, but at the rate they are
>stamping them out now, do you think their quality can be maintained?
Anyone who knows anything about quality control in manufacturing knows
that quality has nothing to do with the numbers produced... it has to
do with the process. A good process will allow improvements in both
quality and quantity.
stra...@my-dejanews.com
This guy is totally right, but samick's (the maker of all these
korean guitars: slammmer, rogue, washburn, epi) objective is numbers
(quantity). Either they intentionally put out low quality or they just
don't know it. I don't know which, but one thing for sure is they
just think wood is wood, and it doesn't matter if the moisture is
removed. These guitars are drying out hanging on the wall at guitar
center, or in a warehouse in medford, OR (home of musician's friend).
That's why the necks bow so ridiculously. I have nothing against these
"cheap" guitars, and I certainly wish they made cheaper guitars that
look cool when I was a kid in the late 70's because if you got a les
paul copy back than it was a piece of flotsam. I think the problem
is that some companies put their high end name on these cheap-o's
(washburn,fender,hamer). AND HAMER SHOULD KNOW BETTER THAN THAT!!!!
The best thing gibson has done was keep the cheaper name separate. The
downside is they killed the epiphone name, oh well. The 2nd
guitarist in an old lineup of my band had the sheraton II. And it
held up pretty good, and it DID sound like a 335 in the mix. I didn't
mind it so long as *I* didn't have to play it. It was a dog to play,
but this guy didn't mind. I didn't mind hearing it through his
vibrolux at all though. But later when he got a les paul standard
the sound improved dramatically. And that les paul was a piece
of garbage, even a good luthier here in NJ couldn't get it right!
I'm talking about feel of the neck, the tone was good. Even newer gibsons
have the shifty wood problems, usually a truss tightening will help
if it didn't shift too much. Another friend has an "SG" (the
lowest 2HB gibson SG nowadays). His has the same problem, tune it
up and everything is in tune when the strings are open. Play a D
chord, and the pressure changes and knocks everything out of tune.
I told him: yeah the thing shifted while hanging by the neck in
guitar center. You need a truss rod tightening, it'll fix it right up.
Then he says: ahh i'm leary about adjusting that stuff, I better take
it to ___ (some music store guy). I told him, he isn't gonna know
what the problem is, he's a business man.
The way I see it, there are four classes of guitars out there:
1) the cheapest under $300 (rogue, slammer, squire...) meant as a
student instrument and nothing more. don't compare it to their
similar looking cousins in terms of depth of tone, and playability.
2) overseas superficial replicas of "real" guitars (epi, mex/MIJ fender,
hamer non USA...)
for people who want a decent instrument but don't want to OR can't spend alot.
Period. don't compare it to 3) or 4). Lesser woods, cheaper electronics,
Lots of problems that are more difficult to fix. Some resale value because
of name and look.
3) Mass produced name brands (Fender, Gibson, PRS..) USA in these cases.
Good components and wood, but put together quickly, can have problems that
are usually fixable. Best value guitars for the experienced player, will hold
up better than 2) espically in terms of resale value. Many "pop" players
play these on stage because of endorsement reasons, but really own and play
lots of 4)'s :-) Or they have 3)'s upgraded to 4)'s.
4) Custom made instrument, made by one craftsperson, a bona fide luthier,
from start to finish. Top dollar, money no object. Best possible choice for
one who does not care about a brand name, and wants a great custom instrument.
NOTE: I think Hamer falls between 3 and 4, hopefully it will stay that way,
but putting their name on guitars in 2) makes me nervous, they should
use the name "slammer" on all non-usa guitars. It makes me think the
new management (kaman) does not care about the Hamer reputation.
Fender custom shop, and some of the better PRS probably fall in between
3 and 4. I still would consider fender "custom shop" in the 4 league.
My three best guitars fall into 3) because of monatary reasons, someday
I would like to own a 4). And I have one 2) a samick TV-20, fortunately
the problems were fixable. I tried a 1) to keep at my friends house
for rehearsal because I don't want to keep an old strat in my trunk while
I'm at work during the hot/cold weather. I had to send it back (a washburn
BT-2)... junk. I'll probably use the samick for that purpose now.
So there's no snobbery or reason to fight, you just get what you're
comfortable with. Let's not compare apples and oranges though.
In article <7b59kh$sot$2...@ins8.netins.net>,
-----------== Posted via Deja News, The Discussion Network ==----------
Nancy Renfrow
and in walked this guy with some 3/4 size,red, country and western style
acoustic guitar. It looked real cheap. (I am thinking here we go again
this is why they call it open mike) The guy got up and played and blew me
away, I mean this guy jammed out some solo Little Feat like I had never
heard. I figured O.K. the guitar has to be some old 30's or 40's gibson
or Martin. So I asked him what kind of guitar it was and it turned out
to be a 1962 Sears and Robuck that his parents gave him for his birthday.
Cost $19.95. His playing made me want to sell my takamine. All I mean by
this is to much emphasis is put on the dollar value of an instrument. If
it plays well and sounds good I don't care how much it cost. After all
Eddie Van Halen's red and white guitar that he recorded most of the 80's
material on cost him $125 to make. I Love my Sheraton and tried many
335's from different years and they could hold a candle to it.
Jeff
Mike Hartigan
> This guy is totally right, but samick's (the maker of all these
> korean guitars: slammmer, rogue, washburn, epi) objective is numbers
> (quantity). Either they intentionally put out low quality or they just
> don't know it. I don't know which, but one thing for sure is they
> just think wood is wood, and it doesn't matter if the moisture is
> removed. These guitars are drying out hanging on the wall at guitar
> center, or in a warehouse in medford, OR (home of musician's friend).
> That's why the necks bow so ridiculously.
I own two Epis - a Les Paul Custom and a Sheraton. What you describe
above is completely off the wall, as far as I'm concerned, at least as
it relates to my experience with Epiphone guitars. Neither of mine, nor
any others that I have played have shown any sign of bowed necks. And
if the wood wasn't properly dry before the finish was applied, my 10+
year old Epis would have shed most of it by now.
> I have nothing against these
> "cheap" guitars, and I certainly wish they made cheaper guitars that
> look cool when I was a kid in the late 70's because if you got a les
> paul copy back than it was a piece of flotsam.
Amen! Although many of these 'cheap' guitars play just fine (my Epis,
for examples)
> I think the problem
> is that some companies put their high end name on these cheap-o's
> (washburn,fender,hamer). AND HAMER SHOULD KNOW BETTER THAN THAT!!!!
> The best thing gibson has done was keep the cheaper name separate. The
> downside is they killed the epiphone name, oh well. The 2nd
> guitarist in an old lineup of my band had the sheraton II. And it
> held up pretty good, and it DID sound like a 335 in the mix. I didn't
> mind it so long as *I* didn't have to play it. It was a dog to play,
> but this guy didn't mind. I didn't mind hearing it through his
> vibrolux at all though. But later when he got a les paul standard
> the sound improved dramatically. And that les paul was a piece
> of garbage, even a good luthier here in NJ couldn't get it right!
> I'm talking about feel of the neck, the tone was good. Even newer gibsons
> have the shifty wood problems, usually a truss tightening will help
> if it didn't shift too much. Another friend has an "SG" (the
> lowest 2HB gibson SG nowadays). His has the same problem, tune it
> up and everything is in tune when the strings are open. Play a D
> chord, and the pressure changes and knocks everything out of tune.
> I told him: yeah the thing shifted while hanging by the neck in
> guitar center. You need a truss rod tightening, it'll fix it right up.
> Then he says: ahh i'm leary about adjusting that stuff, I better take
> it to ___ (some music store guy). I told him, he isn't gonna know
> what the problem is, he's a business man.
Sounds like the problems you describe can be fixed with a good setup.
I setup my own instruments. Action on my Sheraton is lower than on any
guitar I've owned in the past, including my old ES-335. And completely
buzz-free! If "even a good luthier ... couldn't get it right", then you
may have been dealing with a defective guitar. This is *not*
universally true of the Epis. As for sound - my Sheraton sounds very
"ES-335"-like, and my LP sounds very "Les Paul"-like (I won't say
'exactly' because I don't want to invite the wrath of those who would
disagree). And they both play virtually as good as the 'real things'.
They're both completely stock - tuners, pickups, electronics, etc.
They sound every bit as sweet as the originals.
> The way I see it, there are four classes of guitars out there:
> 1) the cheapest under $300 (rogue, slammer, squire...) meant as a
> student instrument and nothing more. don't compare it to their
> similar looking cousins in terms of depth of tone, and playability.
Agreed
> 2) overseas superficial replicas of "real" guitars (epi, mex/MIJ fender,
> hamer non USA...)
> for people who want a decent instrument but don't want to OR can't spend alot.
> Period. don't compare it to 3) or 4). Lesser woods, cheaper electronics,
> Lots of problems that are more difficult to fix. Some resale value because
> of name and look.
Lower cost materials, yes. But "Lots of problems that are more
difficult to fix" is simply not true.
> 3) Mass produced name brands (Fender, Gibson, PRS..) USA in these cases.
> Good components and wood, but put together quickly, can have problems that
> are usually fixable. Best value guitars for the experienced player, will hold
> up better than 2) espically in terms of resale value. Many "pop" players
> play these on stage because of endorsement reasons, but really own and play
> lots of 4)'s :-) Or they have 3)'s upgraded to 4)'s.
Or they have and play 2)'s
> 4) Custom made instrument, made by one craftsperson, a bona fide luthier,
> from start to finish. Top dollar, money no object. Best possible choice for
> one who does not care about a brand name, and wants a great custom instrument.
> NOTE: I think Hamer falls between 3 and 4, hopefully it will stay that way,
> but putting their name on guitars in 2) makes me nervous, they should
> use the name "slammer" on all non-usa guitars. It makes me think the
> new management (kaman) does not care about the Hamer reputation.
Don't forget Gibson's and Fender's names prominently displayed on their
2)'s. In fact, my Sheraton's headstock has Gibson's name inlaid in the
same size and in the same script as the 'real thing'.
> Fender custom shop, and some of the better PRS probably fall in between
> 3 and 4. I still would consider fender "custom shop" in the 4 league.
> My three best guitars fall into 3) because of monatary reasons, someday
> I would like to own a 4).
My two current are 2)'s. Money was an initial factor in looking at the
Les Paul. I couldn't justify a substantial increase in $$$ for what I
perceived as an incremental increase in quality. The quality of the Les
Paul is what caused me to look at the Sheraton a year later. Feel,
tone, and playability are the reasons I still have both after more than
10 years. I owned a 3), but I had no compelling reason to keep it (all
of my clothes have their labels on the INside). I bought one of the 2)'s
to replace it.
> And I have one 2) a samick TV-20, fortunately
> the problems were fixable. I tried a 1) to keep at my friends house
> for rehearsal because I don't want to keep an old strat in my trunk while
> I'm at work during the hot/cold weather. I had to send it back (a washburn
> BT-2)... junk. I'll probably use the samick for that purpose now.
> So there's no snobbery or reason to fight, you just get what you're
> comfortable with. Let's not compare apples and oranges though.
> In article <7b59kh$sot$2...@ins8.netins.net>,
> sto...@ia-omni.com wrote:
> > wee...@zappa.com (Southpaw) wrote:
> >
> > >On Sun, 21 Feb 1999 01:06:08 GMT, te...@ameritech.net wrote:
> >
> > >>I have an ES-347 AND a Sheraton II...Both are nice axes..I paid 400.00
> > >>for the Gibson in a pawn shop last year in St Louis and 600.00 new
> > >>from GTR Center for my Sheraton...The sheraton is a beautiful looking
> > >>guitar and play nicely..the Gibson..well..it is just unbelivable...
> >
> > >yeah, the Epis are an affordable guitar, but at the rate they are
> > >stamping them out now, do you think their quality can be maintained?
> >
> > Anyone who knows anything about quality control in manufacturing knows
> > that quality has nothing to do with the numbers produced... it has to
> > do with the process. A good process will allow improvements in both
> > quality and quantity.
> >
> >
> -----------== Posted via Deja News, The Discussion Network ==----------
> http://www.dejanews.com/ Search, Read, Discuss, or Start Your Own
--
+-------------------------------------///--------------------+
| | /// |
| Why didn't you do that to | Mike Hartigan |
| the monkey BEFORE he sold \\\| hart...@enteract.dot.com |
| the car? \\\/// |
+-------------------------------\\\/-------------------------+
dho...@quixote.com
it. It got dropped more than once, requiring the top to be reglued. I played
it so much you can see where I liked to play the most on the fingerboard. It
was ultimately trashed by a repair shop who felt that this guitar was beneath
their dignity to repair (bastards), but I got more than 10 years out of that
guitar. It sits in the closet now but I'll never sell it. The one instrument
I did sell (my baby grand) was a heartbreaker to watch leave.
-dh
!Koi
>
[snip]
>
> I told him: yeah the thing shifted while hanging by the neck in
> guitar center. You need a truss rod tightening, it'll fix it right up.
The way you toss around the phrase "you need a truss rod tightening"
would make one think that you don't have a clue as to the purpose and
proper adjustment of a truss rod. And if this is the case, how far
could one take any of the rest of your comments?
Joe
paul zablotski
wrote:
<much snippage>
>Money isn't everything, I was hosting a open mike a couple of years ago
>and in walked this guy with some 3/4 size,red, country and western style
>acoustic guitar. It looked real cheap. (I am thinking here we go again
>this is why they call it open mike) The guy got up and played and blew me
>away, I mean this guy jammed out some solo Little Feat like I had never
>heard. I figured O.K. the guitar has to be some old 30's or 40's gibson
>or Martin. So I asked him what kind of guitar it was and it turned out
>to be a 1962 Sears and Robuck that his parents gave him for his birthday.
>Cost $19.95. His playing made me want to sell my takamine. All I mean by
>this is to much emphasis is put on the dollar value of an instrument. If
>it plays well and sounds good I don't care how much it cost. After all
>Eddie Van Halen's red and white guitar that he recorded most of the 80's
>material on cost him $125 to make. I Love my Sheraton and tried many
>335's from different years and they could hold a candle to it.
>
>Jeff
Jeff - Touche! I've heard enough blazing players who play instruments
that wouldn't get a second look in a pawn shop to learn the same thing
you have: It's the player, and not the model, vintage or cost that
matters. Sure, you have to get to point where the instrument isn't
getting in the way because it's so lame, but that point comes a lot
sooner, and with less $$ spent than many think. You might have to
search a bit, but I think decent guitars are out there. You just have
to use your ears and keep an open mind.
PZ
-------------Paul Zablotski-------------
peatea
I have a few old American made, top of the line guitars. One is a 1966
Rickenbacker 370 stereo. This guitar was hand made from select woods and
uses the best of materials. I really like it but I don't play out with it
often because of its value. I also have an Epiphone SG Custom Doubleneck.
This guitar out plays and sounds better than my Rickenbacker or my Pre-CBS
Stratocaster. Only problem is that it weighs a ton. I have noticed that
the value of it is going up. I suppose that is because it has been
discontinued.
I think that in the future we will see some Epiphone guitars values going up.
Pt
Jeff Ganaposki
Not even sure of the name brand, but I think the neck was
plywood... ;-P
It was off balanced, humbuckers sounded like thud blumps,
but the action
was incredible! Was it those plys?
To get bright tone, I played through 12's.
I could play my arse off (& bloody fingertips) on the thing
-
sorry to say I sold it, and bought a "name" brand bass -
which later
turned out to be a worse turkey.
Never underestimate the music you can make from
garbage.
--
============================================================
|Jeff Ganaposki mailto:jgm...@bellsouth.net
|404-361-9972 http://www.freeyellow.com/members/living-word
============================================================
peatea
wrote:
> My first bass was a $50 cheapie from Lafayette Electronics!
> Not even sure of the name brand, but I think the neck was
> plywood... ;-P
> It was off balanced, humbuckers sounded like thud blumps,
> but the action
> was incredible! Was it those plys?
> To get bright tone, I played through 12's.
> I could play my arse off (& bloody fingertips) on the thing
> -
> sorry to say I sold it, and bought a "name" brand bass -
> which later
> turned out to be a worse turkey.
>
> Never underestimate the music you can make from
> garbage.
> --
One of the best playing and sounding basses I had was a short scale Deca.
It looked like a stratocaster. Cost about $75 new in the 70's.
Pt
John Sessoms
>
> stra...@my-dejanews.com wrote:
> >
> > This guy is totally right, but samick's (the maker of all these
> > korean guitars: slammmer, rogue, washburn, epi) objective is numbers
> > (quantity). Either they intentionally put out low quality or they just
> > don't know it. I don't know which, but one thing for sure is they
> > just think wood is wood, and it doesn't matter if the moisture is
> > removed.
<snip>
> >
> > In article <7b59kh$sot$2...@ins8.netins.net>,
> > sto...@ia-omni.com wrote:
> >
> > > Anyone who knows anything about quality control in manufacturing knows
> > > that quality has nothing to do with the numbers produced... it has to
> > > do with the process. A good process will allow improvements in both
> > > quality and quantity.
<snip>
> Money isn't everything, I was hosting a open mike a couple of years ago
> and in walked this guy with some 3/4 size,red, country and western style
> acoustic guitar. It looked real cheap. (I am thinking here we go again
> this is why they call it open mike) The guy got up and played and blew me
> away, I mean this guy jammed out some solo Little Feat like I had never
> heard. I figured O.K. the guitar has to be some old 30's or 40's gibson
> or Martin. So I asked him what kind of guitar it was and it turned out
> to be a 1962 Sears and Robuck that his parents gave him for his birthday.
> Cost $19.95. His playing made me want to sell my takamine. All I mean by
> this is to much emphasis is put on the dollar value of an instrument. If
> it plays well and sounds good I don't care how much it cost. After all
> Eddie Van Halen's red and white guitar that he recorded most of the 80's
> material on cost him $125 to make. I Love my Sheraton and tried many
> 335's from different years and they could hold a candle to it.
>
> Jeff
I've been looking at a lot of "cheaper" guitars lately, and I'd say
there's more good quality, in-expensive guitars available now than there
ever has been. Don't get stuck up on name brands and "custom shop"
guitars. Play them for yourself and decide whether they're good for you.
And when you do try a guitar out, don't be put off by little things like
a "bad" setup. What's bad for you may be just right for another
player. Get the guitar set up the way you want it. For anything over
$500, I expect the store to include a setup. The really good stores
will do it for every guitar, no matter how much it costs. Consider this
-- When a store sets up a $150 for you, where are you going first when
you're ready to buy a $500 or $1000 guitar?
Finally, Jeff's right. The most important factor determining what a
guitar sounds like is the guy (or gal) holding it.
[IGNORE --- Filler to fool News server ]
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Patrick F. Coleman
>Nancy Renfrow wrote:
>>
>> stra...@my-dejanews.com wrote:
>> >
>> > This guy is totally right, but samick's (the maker of all these
>> > korean guitars: slammmer, rogue, washburn, epi)
I hear this once in a while. But some time ago we had a guy coming in
fairly often who claimed -I hope I remember this correctly- that there
were several small companies which formed a conglomerate over there
and Samick, and these 'two' were the main outfits.
He said Washburn was made by one outfit, and epi by Samick.
I also think Rogue and slammer are made by the folks who make
Washburn.
I know Samick has some offbrand guitars, as well as epi and Samick,
but I only know one of them.
>>> objective is numbers
>> > (quantity).
Nobody has quantity as their only goal/value. It wouldn't make sense
to think you could enter a large dynamic market with pure junk and
sell a lot of it.
The quality of Samick, Epiphone and even some washburns and other
Korean made guitars proves this idea is taken to an extreme.
Are they attempting to have a large part of the low end market,
certainly. Are they attempting to produce good medium range
instruments, must be, because they are all over the place.
Are they attempting to break into the high end market, decidedly,
there are higher priced instruments, original feature instruments,
endorsements and more.
>>> Either they intentionally put out low quality or they just
>> > don't know it. I don't know which, but one thing for sure is they
>> > just think wood is wood, and it doesn't matter if the moisture is
>> > removed.
Again, your statement here is too gross. I'm SURE they know about
wood. I'm sure they choose between plywood, laminates, and a range of
solid woods for their guitars depending on price and function.
I'm sure because the facts are in every store around.
If you focus only on the low end stuff, and make all your comments
about these companies as if there could apply to all instruments they
make, it's pretty obviously only an opinion and one that's slanted at
that.
><snip>
>> >
>> > In article <7b59kh$sot$2...@ins8.netins.net>,
>> > sto...@ia-omni.com wrote:
>> >
>> > > Anyone who knows anything about quality control in manufacturing knows
>> > > that quality has nothing to do with the numbers produced... it has to
>> > > do with the process. A good process will allow improvements in both
>> > > quality and quantity.
><snip>
>> Money isn't everything, I was hosting a open mike a couple of years ago
>> and in walked this guy with some 3/4 size,red, country and western style
>> acoustic guitar. It looked real cheap. (I am thinking here we go again
>> this is why they call it open mike) The guy got up and played and blew me
>> away, I mean this guy jammed out some solo Little Feat like I had never
>> heard. I figured O.K. the guitar has to be some old 30's or 40's gibson
>> or Martin. So I asked him what kind of guitar it was and it turned out
>> to be a 1962 Sears and Robuck that his parents gave him for his birthday.
>> Cost $19.95. His playing made me want to sell my takamine. All I mean by
>> this is to much emphasis is put on the dollar value of an instrument. If
>> it plays well and sounds good I don't care how much it cost. After all
>> Eddie Van Halen's red and white guitar that he recorded most of the 80's
>> material on cost him $125 to make. I Love my Sheraton and tried many
>> 335's from different years and they could hold a candle to it.
>>
>> Jeff
>I've been looking at a lot of "cheaper" guitars lately, and I'd say
>there's more good quality, in-expensive guitars available now than there
>ever has been. Don't get stuck up on name brands and "custom shop"
>guitars. Play them for yourself and decide whether they're good for you.
>And when you do try a guitar out, don't be put off by little things like
>a "bad" setup. What's bad for you may be just right for another
>player. Get the guitar set up the way you want it. For anything over
>$500, I expect the store to include a setup. The really good stores
>will do it for every guitar, no matter how much it costs. Consider this
>-- When a store sets up a $150 for you, where are you going first when
>you're ready to buy a $500 or $1000 guitar?
>Finally, Jeff's right. The most important factor determining what a
>guitar sounds like is the guy (or gal) holding it.
There are two rules at odds here.
One rule is that which tells us clearly that while there is such a
thing as a stradivarius, not everyone can own one, not everyone can
afford one, nobody can duplicate it, there are others just as good,
the price is overwhelmingly high for simple music production, and you
have choices which, logically, people shouldn't knock.
The other rule has to do with people. If there is a musician in you it
will come out. It will any means to do it.
It may even LIKE what others think is bad.
On top of all that, people are at every level and stage of play out
there. And it's pretty clear that you don't need a vintage les paul to
get started, play pro, or become famous or respected.
It's a great time for shopping for guitars, because of the range of
choices. Some of it's crap.
wanna buy a slightly used neck?
Twang!
/-)
!Koi
>
> wanna buy a slightly used neck?
> Twang!
>
I'd love to own the "Coleman Neck".
The lore of the Phantom Menace truss rod will grow and this neck will
become more and more valuable until, one day, Todd McFarlane will pay
a huge sum to own it.
Joe
Cadfael51
// 10 years. I owned a 3), but I had no compelling reason to keep it (all
// of my clothes have their labels on the INside). I bought one of the 2)'s
Even the Dockers?
Neil
==========================================
Dance your Dance;
Speak your Voice.
==========================================
ndu...@earthlinkNOSPAM.net