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Santana and Dorian mode. 1. Oye Como Va
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RichL
May 21, 2012, 3:33:24 PM5/21/12
to
Santana has a lot of stuff that's either purely Dorian or Dorian-flavored.
"Oye Como Va" is a pretty straightforward example.
Here's the recorded version of the song:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v13JAf6Oohc
There are essentially two chords being played throughout: Am (or Am7,
sometimes) and D (there's actually a D9 chord in there somewhere). So let's
look at the chords to figure out what's going on.
Am7: (A C E G)
D: (D F# A)
D9: (D F# A C E)
Everything from the key of G except for the B note: G A C D E F#. The
primary melody line goes like this: A D C D A. Despite the B note being
missing, the key is unambiguous. No other key would accommodate all these
notes as belonging. Besides, the missing B note comes up often in Santana's
guitar runs.
But the "home" chord is clearly Am. Now we could score this as if it were
Am, with C being the key, but all those F#s would be treated as accidental.
Or we can recognize the song as being in the A Dorian mode in the key of C.
In this case the relevant scale is the Dorian scale, A B C D E F# G (a),
which are just the notes of the G scale rearranged.
You'll note a few transitional notes in Carlos's playing that lie outside
the scale. These are scored as accidentals. Despite those, the simplest
way to score this piece is in the key of G. There are fewer accidentals
that way.
A Dorian mode, key of G.
"Oye Como Va" is a pretty straightforward example.
Here's the recorded version of the song:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v13JAf6Oohc
There are essentially two chords being played throughout: Am (or Am7,
sometimes) and D (there's actually a D9 chord in there somewhere). So let's
look at the chords to figure out what's going on.
Am7: (A C E G)
D: (D F# A)
D9: (D F# A C E)
Everything from the key of G except for the B note: G A C D E F#. The
primary melody line goes like this: A D C D A. Despite the B note being
missing, the key is unambiguous. No other key would accommodate all these
notes as belonging. Besides, the missing B note comes up often in Santana's
guitar runs.
But the "home" chord is clearly Am. Now we could score this as if it were
Am, with C being the key, but all those F#s would be treated as accidental.
Or we can recognize the song as being in the A Dorian mode in the key of C.
In this case the relevant scale is the Dorian scale, A B C D E F# G (a),
which are just the notes of the G scale rearranged.
You'll note a few transitional notes in Carlos's playing that lie outside
the scale. These are scored as accidentals. Despite those, the simplest
way to score this piece is in the key of G. There are fewer accidentals
that way.
A Dorian mode, key of G.
Craig 'Lumpy' Lemke
May 21, 2012, 4:13:13 PM5/21/12
to
RichL wrote:
> Santana has a lot of stuff that's either purely Dorian or
> Dorian-flavored. "Oye Como Va" is a pretty straightforward example.
> Santana has a lot of stuff that's either purely Dorian or
> Dorian-flavored. "Oye Como Va" is a pretty straightforward example.
> A Dorian mode, key of G.
http://www.musicnotes.com/sheetmusic/mtdFPE.asp?ppn=MN0063569
Go fuck yourself.
Lump
RichL
May 21, 2012, 4:36:14 PM5/21/12
to
"Craig 'Lumpy' Lemke" <lu...@LumpyMusic.com> wrote in message
news:jpe7ks$t18$1...@speranza.aioe.org...
an accidental and that there are NO natural Fs anywhere. Then again, I'm
guessing that you didn't actually read the score.
Rich: "Now we could score this as if it were Am, with C being the key, but
Scoring it in the key of G is more economical, minimizing the need for
accidentals.
news:jpe7ks$t18$1...@speranza.aioe.org...
> RichL wrote:
>> Santana has a lot of stuff that's either purely Dorian or
>> Dorian-flavored. "Oye Como Va" is a pretty straightforward example.
>
>> A Dorian mode, key of G.
>
>
> http://www.musicnotes.com/sheetmusic/mtdFPE.asp?ppn=MN0063569
I don't suppose you noticed on that score that every F# has to be notated as
>> Santana has a lot of stuff that's either purely Dorian or
>> Dorian-flavored. "Oye Como Va" is a pretty straightforward example.
>
>> A Dorian mode, key of G.
>
>
> http://www.musicnotes.com/sheetmusic/mtdFPE.asp?ppn=MN0063569
an accidental and that there are NO natural Fs anywhere. Then again, I'm
guessing that you didn't actually read the score.
Rich: "Now we could score this as if it were Am, with C being the key, but
all those F#s would be treated as accidental."
Hmmmm. Guess I was right. Thanks for the confirmation!
Scoring it in the key of G is more economical, minimizing the need for
accidentals.
Craig 'Lumpy' Lemke
May 21, 2012, 7:08:23 PM5/21/12
to
RichL wrote:
> Scoring it in the key of G is more economical, minimizing the need for
> accidentals.
Essentially EVERY song, classical to pop, in any minor key,
> Scoring it in the key of G is more economical, minimizing the need for
> accidentals.
uses non-diatonic scales. Accidentals are part of the territory.
It is profoundly more traditional and simpler for the composer/copiest
to use the A (in this OCV case) as the key note/tone center (key sig Am)
and indicate the F# with an accidental. That tells the musicians
(musicians who read) that "This is not the natural minor". That's
MUCH more intuitive than to write it in the key of G and force
the player to NOT hear G as TONIC and even stronger,
not to hear D as the Dominant.
For musicians who DON'T read, try telling your guitar buddies
"This is in the key of G but it's A dorian". I'm sure that will
go a long way toward allowing them to understand what you want.
This trying to relate pop tunes to ancient Greek modes is, again,
a product of brainwashing publishers bent on selling YOU on the
idea that you'll "get it" if you memorize that "dorian is like
Major but starting on the ii".
Lump
RichL
May 21, 2012, 7:23:24 PM5/21/12
to
"Craig 'Lumpy' Lemke" <lu...@LumpyMusic.com> wrote in message
news:jpehtf$m6d$1...@speranza.aioe.org...
Why doesn't similar reasoning apply to SHA?
Craig 'Lumpy' Lemke
May 21, 2012, 7:33:38 PM5/21/12
to
RichL wrote:
> Why doesn't similar reasoning apply to SHA?
It's the minor key aspect. There's only one minor scale
> Why doesn't similar reasoning apply to SHA?
that follows the rule of "begin on the vi of the Maj scale".
Every other minor scale (there are several) deliberately
violates that as part of it's substance.
OCV in G but felt in Am is awkward.
SHA isn't in a minor key. There is no deliberate rule break
to make it "feel in the key of D". SHA simply starts on the
dominant. That's not an unusual approach to any style of music,
from Class to Pop, or back even further to Ren/Medi/Chant whatever.
Musicians who read would be comfortable with sensing the G
chord in SHA as Tonic. They would be much less comfortable
with sensing the D as tonic but with every subtonic flatted.
Again, it doesn't matter much if you're trying to get the
information across to people who aren't fluent in keys,
scales etc. For Joseph M. Wankerburg, you could tell him
"It's in Bb and the chords are D A G".
"Whoooo, whooo, whoo"
Lump
RichL
May 21, 2012, 7:51:47 PM5/21/12
to
"Craig 'Lumpy' Lemke" <lu...@LumpyMusic.com> wrote in message
news:jpejcq$p94$1...@speranza.aioe.org...
Back to minors: Badge
http://www.musicnotes.com/sheetmusic/mtdFPE.asp?ppn=MN0053891&
Here it's scored in G, which would correspond to A Dorian in the verse.
It's a similar situation to OCV. What's different? Is it because it goes
to a major tonality (similar to that of SHA) in the chorus and it's better
to stick with the same key rather than change keys at that point? Or is it
just different copyists invoking different personal preferences?
(By the way, I notice Scarborough Fair [18 versions!] all scored in the
traditional minor.
Craig 'Lumpy' Lemke
May 21, 2012, 8:14:39 PM5/21/12
to
RichL wrote:
> Back to minors: Badge
>
> http://www.musicnotes.com/sheetmusic/mtdFPE.asp?ppn=MN0053891&
>
> Here it's scored in G, which would correspond to A Dorian in the
> verse. It's a similar situation to OCV. What's different?
Badge is scored in Em (1 sharp).
> Back to minors: Badge
>
> http://www.musicnotes.com/sheetmusic/mtdFPE.asp?ppn=MN0053891&
>
> Here it's scored in G, which would correspond to A Dorian in the
> verse. It's a similar situation to OCV. What's different?
The bridge (D C G) is pure SHA. Also appropriately in the key
of 1 sharp (G Maj). It simply moves back and forth between
it's relative Maj and relative min tonal centers.
I'll do them all if you insist. But try looking at it from
the less "modal" aspect first. See if it does indeed fit,
even if it requires an accidental here and there. The purpose
of an accidental is to suggest that "this isn't normal".
Then if it's still on the fence, consider the demographics of
who's going to play it. Guitar players, 99.9% of them, aren't
reading a melody line in those songs. They're simply playing
chords. Making it "convenient for them to read" isn't even
a concept. They're playing "this chord" and "that chord".
Lump
RichL
May 21, 2012, 10:33:51 PM5/21/12
to
"Craig 'Lumpy' Lemke" <lu...@LumpyMusic.com> wrote in message
news:jpelpn$tuq$1...@speranza.aioe.org...
> RichL wrote:
>
>> Back to minors: Badge
>>
>> http://www.musicnotes.com/sheetmusic/mtdFPE.asp?ppn=MN0053891&
>>
>> Here it's scored in G, which would correspond to A Dorian in the
>> verse. It's a similar situation to OCV. What's different?
>
> Badge is scored in Em (1 sharp).
> The bridge (D C G) is pure SHA. Also appropriately in the key
> of 1 sharp (G Maj). It simply moves back and forth between
> it's relative Maj and relative min tonal centers.
Right, but the verse seems to follow the same principles as Oye Como Va: the
>
>> Back to minors: Badge
>>
>> http://www.musicnotes.com/sheetmusic/mtdFPE.asp?ppn=MN0053891&
>>
>> Here it's scored in G, which would correspond to A Dorian in the
>> verse. It's a similar situation to OCV. What's different?
>
> Badge is scored in Em (1 sharp).
> The bridge (D C G) is pure SHA. Also appropriately in the key
> of 1 sharp (G Maj). It simply moves back and forth between
> it's relative Maj and relative min tonal centers.
apparent "home chord" is Am. In one case, we call the key Am and deal with
the accidentals that result. In the other, it's Em despite the "home chord"
being Am.
>
> I'll do them all if you insist. But try looking at it from
> the less "modal" aspect first. See if it does indeed fit,
> even if it requires an accidental here and there. The purpose
> of an accidental is to suggest that "this isn't normal".
>
> Then if it's still on the fence, consider the demographics of
> who's going to play it. Guitar players, 99.9% of them, aren't
> reading a melody line in those songs. They're simply playing
> chords. Making it "convenient for them to read" isn't even
> a concept. They're playing "this chord" and "that chord".
OK, but I'm interested in the structure of the whole song, not just what a
> I'll do them all if you insist. But try looking at it from
> the less "modal" aspect first. See if it does indeed fit,
> even if it requires an accidental here and there. The purpose
> of an accidental is to suggest that "this isn't normal".
>
> Then if it's still on the fence, consider the demographics of
> who's going to play it. Guitar players, 99.9% of them, aren't
> reading a melody line in those songs. They're simply playing
> chords. Making it "convenient for them to read" isn't even
> a concept. They're playing "this chord" and "that chord".
rhythm guitarist might be doing.
Let's look at one more before we call it quits. We've talked about minors,
natural, harmonic, melodic, and ones that have a Dorian flavor. What about
something that's more along Phrygian lines?
http://soundclick.com/share.cfm?id=10648732
The chords and melody are derived from the key of C. The chords are Em F
Em G Dm F Bm7b5
Do we still score it as an Em tune (one sharp) and regard all the F naturals
as accidentals? I suspect the answer is yes, but I just want to make sure.
wereoawl
May 21, 2012, 11:54:40 PM5/21/12
to
"RichL" <rple...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:KLCdneZ-mZIYBSfS...@supernews.com...
I don't care.
news:KLCdneZ-mZIYBSfS...@supernews.com...
wereoawl
May 21, 2012, 11:55:58 PM5/21/12
to
"Craig 'Lumpy' Lemke" <lu...@LumpyMusic.com> wrote in message
news:jpejcq$p94$1...@speranza.aioe.org...
NOT designed for humans.
Craig 'Lumpy' Lemke
May 22, 2012, 2:25:20 AM5/22/12
to
RichL wrote:
[Badge - Cream]
> Right, but the verse seems to follow the same principles as Oye Como
> Va: the apparent "home chord" is Am. In one case, we call the key Am
> and deal with the accidentals that result. In the other, it's Em
> despite the "home chord" being Am.
The music theory "evidence" (the fall of probability and history)
suggests it's Em. First, it's in the key sig of 1 sharp. That makes
it either G or Em (or both, like Fly Me To The Moon). Next the amount
of time spent on the Em chord is twice as long as the Am. It is VERY
common for harmony to flow from vi to V to iii (if analyzed in G) or
from iv to VII (same as v relative) to i.
But more importantly (and correctly) than all that, songs aren't
written in modes. They're written in key signatures. Take for example
the key of 1 sharp. That's either G Maj or Em depending on how you
want to feel the song. If it were straight G Maj diatonic, with no
rule breaks (like it is in this song) you could choose to "feel it"
in A dorian, B phryg, C Lyd, D MixoLyd, E aeolean or F# locrian. It
wouldn't make a difference in the notes played and not everyone would
likely "feel it" in the same mode. They'd likely all feel it as Em
with an accidental on the F Maj chord.
Modes are a few hundred or thousand years old. They don't have a lot
of significance to the way we've been playing music for at least the past
couple hundred years. Looking at Badge or OCV as some kind of "modal"
piece really doesn't do anything to help, and more likely hinders, the
musician's interpretation of the piece.
> ...What about something that's more along Phrygian lines?
F# and be appropriate to G/Em. But even if I didn't hear it, you
do have an F natural in the beginning of the theme.
If it were a Bm7b5, that chord is a very strong dominant G7 chord
without the root. It wants to lead to C. We nearly always hear and score
the vii half dim chord as the same as the V7. But in your etude it
doesn't resolve to C. It resolves to Em. That makes it the v of Em
with a b5 accidental. That's very common because that b5 is resolving
downward to the root of the Em chord.
The song hovers around the G Maj chord at the chorus. If we scored
it as the key of G, the F would be a very frequently used IV/IV,
the sub-dom of the sub-dom (the IV of C). That's done a lot to
replace the V chord. Sometimes called the subTonic Major. When
it has a 7th in it it's sometimes called the subTonic Dominant.
It's "the other" 2ndary dominant chord. The other one is the V/V
or the SuperTonic Major. In the key of G, that V/V would be an
A (Maj) chord. But I don't think that happens in this piece.
Again, I think you're trying to associate mode with key. It's just
not very accurate or useful to do so, at least it hasn't been
since the earliest Greeks and their limited Lyres.
If you played that piece for the average musician or non-musician,
they'd surely feel it as Em or G, even if (non-musicians) they
didn't know the terminology.
The place(s) with the C chord (1:48 or so, for example) don't feel
like any kind of resolved spot. That C chord is moving strongly toward
the B(something) and then to the Em. The melody at that C chord hovers
on an A note. That turns the C chord into Am and suggests a sub-dominant
of Em or a SuperTonic of G. If it's the iv, that chord would typically
resolve either UP to v(V) (the typical I IV V) or DOWN to i(I)
(the plagal cadence). In your case, it resolves predictably as a plagal
cadence and/or a IV V (iv v either flavor M or m) either directly
or eventually, via the B(something) to Em. It's a II V I, perhaps the
2nd most popular cadence in Western popular music. Or a II I, the more
antiquated 2nd most popular cadence in Western music.
I'm using Maj and min interchangably M vs m in a lot of places. The
concepts all work with both whether we're in a Maj key or it's rel minor.
So any place I suggest something like II V I, assume it's appropriate to
substitute v for V, II for ii, i for I etc.
All of that just to put an F natural chord in a song that's in Em.
And I'm not even a theory head. The true theory academics could
bore you to tears with all the analysis. Much more practical to
play the darn thing and just enjoy or hate it, depending on
the listener's personal artistic taste.
Lump
[Badge - Cream]
> Right, but the verse seems to follow the same principles as Oye Como
> Va: the apparent "home chord" is Am. In one case, we call the key Am
> and deal with the accidentals that result. In the other, it's Em
> despite the "home chord" being Am.
suggests it's Em. First, it's in the key sig of 1 sharp. That makes
it either G or Em (or both, like Fly Me To The Moon). Next the amount
of time spent on the Em chord is twice as long as the Am. It is VERY
common for harmony to flow from vi to V to iii (if analyzed in G) or
from iv to VII (same as v relative) to i.
But more importantly (and correctly) than all that, songs aren't
written in modes. They're written in key signatures. Take for example
the key of 1 sharp. That's either G Maj or Em depending on how you
want to feel the song. If it were straight G Maj diatonic, with no
rule breaks (like it is in this song) you could choose to "feel it"
in A dorian, B phryg, C Lyd, D MixoLyd, E aeolean or F# locrian. It
wouldn't make a difference in the notes played and not everyone would
likely "feel it" in the same mode. They'd likely all feel it as Em
with an accidental on the F Maj chord.
Modes are a few hundred or thousand years old. They don't have a lot
of significance to the way we've been playing music for at least the past
couple hundred years. Looking at Badge or OCV as some kind of "modal"
piece really doesn't do anything to help, and more likely hinders, the
musician's interpretation of the piece.
> ...What about something that's more along Phrygian lines?
>
> http://soundclick.com/share.cfm?id=10648732
>
> The chords and melody are derived from the key of C. The chords are
> Em F Em G Dm F Bm7b5
>
> Do we still score it as an Em tune (one sharp) and regard all the F
> naturals as accidentals? I suspect the answer is yes, but I just
> want to make sure.
I could swear I heard a B7 chord at ~ 1:00. That would give it an
> http://soundclick.com/share.cfm?id=10648732
>
> The chords and melody are derived from the key of C. The chords are
> Em F Em G Dm F Bm7b5
>
> Do we still score it as an Em tune (one sharp) and regard all the F
> naturals as accidentals? I suspect the answer is yes, but I just
> want to make sure.
F# and be appropriate to G/Em. But even if I didn't hear it, you
do have an F natural in the beginning of the theme.
If it were a Bm7b5, that chord is a very strong dominant G7 chord
without the root. It wants to lead to C. We nearly always hear and score
the vii half dim chord as the same as the V7. But in your etude it
doesn't resolve to C. It resolves to Em. That makes it the v of Em
with a b5 accidental. That's very common because that b5 is resolving
downward to the root of the Em chord.
The song hovers around the G Maj chord at the chorus. If we scored
it as the key of G, the F would be a very frequently used IV/IV,
the sub-dom of the sub-dom (the IV of C). That's done a lot to
replace the V chord. Sometimes called the subTonic Major. When
it has a 7th in it it's sometimes called the subTonic Dominant.
It's "the other" 2ndary dominant chord. The other one is the V/V
or the SuperTonic Major. In the key of G, that V/V would be an
A (Maj) chord. But I don't think that happens in this piece.
Again, I think you're trying to associate mode with key. It's just
not very accurate or useful to do so, at least it hasn't been
since the earliest Greeks and their limited Lyres.
If you played that piece for the average musician or non-musician,
they'd surely feel it as Em or G, even if (non-musicians) they
didn't know the terminology.
The place(s) with the C chord (1:48 or so, for example) don't feel
like any kind of resolved spot. That C chord is moving strongly toward
the B(something) and then to the Em. The melody at that C chord hovers
on an A note. That turns the C chord into Am and suggests a sub-dominant
of Em or a SuperTonic of G. If it's the iv, that chord would typically
resolve either UP to v(V) (the typical I IV V) or DOWN to i(I)
(the plagal cadence). In your case, it resolves predictably as a plagal
cadence and/or a IV V (iv v either flavor M or m) either directly
or eventually, via the B(something) to Em. It's a II V I, perhaps the
2nd most popular cadence in Western popular music. Or a II I, the more
antiquated 2nd most popular cadence in Western music.
I'm using Maj and min interchangably M vs m in a lot of places. The
concepts all work with both whether we're in a Maj key or it's rel minor.
So any place I suggest something like II V I, assume it's appropriate to
substitute v for V, II for ii, i for I etc.
All of that just to put an F natural chord in a song that's in Em.
And I'm not even a theory head. The true theory academics could
bore you to tears with all the analysis. Much more practical to
play the darn thing and just enjoy or hate it, depending on
the listener's personal artistic taste.
Lump
gonjah
May 22, 2012, 11:05:35 AM5/22/12
to
-- X-No-Archive: Yes
connecting rod to the crankshaft.
RichL
May 22, 2012, 11:44:39 AM5/22/12
to
"Craig 'Lumpy' Lemke" <lu...@LumpyMusic.com> wrote in message
news:jpfbgp$929$1...@speranza.aioe.org...
> RichL wrote:
>> ...What about something that's more along Phrygian lines?
>>
>> http://soundclick.com/share.cfm?id=10648732
>>
>> The chords and melody are derived from the key of C. The chords are
>> Em F Em G Dm F Bm7b5
>>
>> Do we still score it as an Em tune (one sharp) and regard all the F
>> naturals as accidentals? I suspect the answer is yes, but I just
>> want to make sure.
>
> I could swear I heard a B7 chord at ~ 1:00. That would give it an
> F# and be appropriate to G/Em.
Nope, that's where the Bm7b5 comes in. F natural is the "b5" there.
>> ...What about something that's more along Phrygian lines?
>>
>> http://soundclick.com/share.cfm?id=10648732
>>
>> The chords and melody are derived from the key of C. The chords are
>> Em F Em G Dm F Bm7b5
>>
>> Do we still score it as an Em tune (one sharp) and regard all the F
>> naturals as accidentals? I suspect the answer is yes, but I just
>> want to make sure.
>
> I could swear I heard a B7 chord at ~ 1:00. That would give it an
> F# and be appropriate to G/Em.
> But even if I didn't hear it, you
> do have an F natural in the beginning of the theme.
not a pure C scale underlying it. I could have played an F but for some
reason an F# sounded better in the immediate context.
>
> If it were a Bm7b5, that chord is a very strong dominant G7 chord
> without the root. It wants to lead to C. We nearly always hear and score
> the vii half dim chord as the same as the V7. But in your etude it
> doesn't resolve to C. It resolves to Em. That makes it the v of Em
> with a b5 accidental. That's very common because that b5 is resolving
> downward to the root of the Em chord.
>
> The song hovers around the G Maj chord at the chorus. If we scored
> it as the key of G, the F would be a very frequently used IV/IV,
> the sub-dom of the sub-dom (the IV of C). That's done a lot to
> replace the V chord. Sometimes called the subTonic Major. When
> it has a 7th in it it's sometimes called the subTonic Dominant.
> It's "the other" 2ndary dominant chord. The other one is the V/V
> or the SuperTonic Major. In the key of G, that V/V would be an
> A (Maj) chord. But I don't think that happens in this piece.
Gotcha. Thinking about it, the V/V concept probably occurs in pop music
> If it were a Bm7b5, that chord is a very strong dominant G7 chord
> without the root. It wants to lead to C. We nearly always hear and score
> the vii half dim chord as the same as the V7. But in your etude it
> doesn't resolve to C. It resolves to Em. That makes it the v of Em
> with a b5 accidental. That's very common because that b5 is resolving
> downward to the root of the Em chord.
>
> The song hovers around the G Maj chord at the chorus. If we scored
> it as the key of G, the F would be a very frequently used IV/IV,
> the sub-dom of the sub-dom (the IV of C). That's done a lot to
> replace the V chord. Sometimes called the subTonic Major. When
> it has a 7th in it it's sometimes called the subTonic Dominant.
> It's "the other" 2ndary dominant chord. The other one is the V/V
> or the SuperTonic Major. In the key of G, that V/V would be an
> A (Maj) chord. But I don't think that happens in this piece.
more frequently than IV/IV. But I see what you're getting at.
>
> Again, I think you're trying to associate mode with key. It's just
> not very accurate or useful to do so, at least it hasn't been
> since the earliest Greeks and their limited Lyres.
Well, I started out writing the song partly with the idea of using the iii
> Again, I think you're trying to associate mode with key. It's just
> not very accurate or useful to do so, at least it hasn't been
> since the earliest Greeks and their limited Lyres.
of the C scale as a "home chord" and developing the rest of the song
consistent with staying within the C major scale. It was sort of an
experiment, really. Maybe I'm over-thinking the mode thing.
>
> If you played that piece for the average musician or non-musician,
> they'd surely feel it as Em or G, even if (non-musicians) they
> didn't know the terminology.
Yeah, I can see that in retrospect, especially with the chorus dwelling on
> If you played that piece for the average musician or non-musician,
> they'd surely feel it as Em or G, even if (non-musicians) they
> didn't know the terminology.
the G chord. But the shift to Dm following that deviates from C. I guess
that's a variation on the IV/IV thing you mentioned, with the relative minor
substituting for the F that would represent IV/IV.
>
> The place(s) with the C chord (1:48 or so, for example) don't feel
> like any kind of resolved spot. That C chord is moving strongly toward
> the B(something) and then to the Em. The melody at that C chord hovers
> on an A note. That turns the C chord into Am and suggests a sub-dominant
> of Em or a SuperTonic of G. If it's the iv, that chord would typically
> resolve either UP to v(V) (the typical I IV V) or DOWN to i(I)
> (the plagal cadence). In your case, it resolves predictably as a plagal
> cadence and/or a IV V (iv v either flavor M or m) either directly
> or eventually, via the B(something) to Em. It's a II V I, perhaps the
> 2nd most popular cadence in Western popular music. Or a II I, the more
> antiquated 2nd most popular cadence in Western music.
Hmmm, I'm thinking either that the time ticker that shows on my computer is
> The place(s) with the C chord (1:48 or so, for example) don't feel
> like any kind of resolved spot. That C chord is moving strongly toward
> the B(something) and then to the Em. The melody at that C chord hovers
> on an A note. That turns the C chord into Am and suggests a sub-dominant
> of Em or a SuperTonic of G. If it's the iv, that chord would typically
> resolve either UP to v(V) (the typical I IV V) or DOWN to i(I)
> (the plagal cadence). In your case, it resolves predictably as a plagal
> cadence and/or a IV V (iv v either flavor M or m) either directly
> or eventually, via the B(something) to Em. It's a II V I, perhaps the
> 2nd most popular cadence in Western popular music. Or a II I, the more
> antiquated 2nd most popular cadence in Western music.
different from yours, or you mis-heard.
The sequence around 1:48 is:
"living here illegally" (Dm)
"doesn't make sense to me" (F)
followed by Bm7b5 and then back to the Em chord.
1:48 is right about at the transition between these last two chords.
There's no C chord; there isn't one in the entire song.
The melody ends on the A note, part of the F chord at that point (part of
the IV/IV thing you mentioned). The Bm7b5 incorporates the tritone,
retaining the F while putting the B in the bass (also D and A notes).
Craig 'Lumpy' Lemke
May 22, 2012, 11:55:30 AM5/22/12
to
RichL wrote:
> Hmmm, I'm thinking either that the time ticker that shows on my
> computer is different from yours, or you mis-heard.
>
> The sequence around 1:48 is:
>
> "living here illegally" (Dm)
> "doesn't make sense to me" (F)
> followed by Bm7b5 and then back to the Em chord.
> 1:48 is right about at the transition between these last two chords.
> There's no C chord; there isn't one in the entire song.
No, you're right. Not a C chord but an F.
> Hmmm, I'm thinking either that the time ticker that shows on my
> computer is different from yours, or you mis-heard.
>
> The sequence around 1:48 is:
>
> "living here illegally" (Dm)
> "doesn't make sense to me" (F)
> followed by Bm7b5 and then back to the Em chord.
> 1:48 is right about at the transition between these last two chords.
> There's no C chord; there isn't one in the entire song.
If there's no C in the song then that's more strong suggestion
that it's not in the key of C. It's not impossible to score a song
in a key but never return to the tonic. Bonnie Raitts
"I Can't Make You Love Me" never returns to the tonic.
Lump
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