Keys, scales & stuff
Griffin
I've decided that I need to read music and have got a nice little book
explaining things to me... well, it's supposed to. The problem I'm having is
that the author introduces the application of keys and assumes that it's so
easy that it's obvious. Well, call me stupid! I can understand the 'C' scale
(5/3, 4/0, 4/2,4/3, etc) and I can understand why it's called 'C', but...
Why isn't the key of 'A' start at the A open (ie 5/0, 5/2, 5/3, etc) or does
it? The same goes for 'E' (why not 6/0, etc). Trying to relate this to the
musical notation (sharps & flats on the staff) is another mystery. Do I just
have to memorise all the combinations or is there some sort of method to it.
I've done a search on the WEB but get so much irrelevant stuff that it's not
helpful. Can some kind soul point me in the right direction please.
Griff
Roger E.Blumberg
Guitar offers many possible places ways and fingerings to play any scale (or
chord). You asked why isn't A played: "A open (ie 5/0, 5/2, 5/3, etc)". The
answer is it can be. It could also be (6/5, 6/7, 5/4, etc).
Your best bet is to memorize the note names (letter spellings) of the notes
on your two lowest pitched strings.
http://www.thecipher.com/guitar_speller.html
Then learn about the fretboard's "Pattern of Unisons and Octaves"
http://www.thecipher.com/octave-pattern_1.html
If you examine any tone's Pattern of Unisons and Octaves you'll see a
minimum of four different places the given tonic will reside (be available)
and still leave you enough higher strings to be able to execute a complete
one octave scale (using three strings), and all of those optional places are
perfectly acceptable right and good. Some will be more convenient or in a
higher or lower register (higher or lower octave), some will be redundant
"Unison" versions just located 5 frets higher or lower on the neck. [on the
page linked-to above the pattern for "A" is already mapped out ;') . "E" is
too. And a bunch more here too
http://www.thecipher.com/octave-pat-alignments.html].
Your assignment Griffin, should you choose to accept it, is to map out the
pattern for "C", then for any/all others.
Here's a PDF of blank fretboard grid paper, use the 15 fret grid and map out
all 15 fretsworth (octave is at 12th fret), that way you can see the "repeat
point" in the pattern (speller PDF is available on that page too).
http://www.thecipher.com/guitar_free_pdfs.html
Good luck
Roger
"Griffin" <sno...@optushome.com.aux> wrote in message
news:3fd2d94b$0$20482$afc3...@news.optusnet.com.au...
Roger E.Blumberg
given tonic/root, e.g. the pattern for "C", then build a Major scale (for
example) from any and every "C" note you can. Then try building a Major
triad (R, 3, 5 on three adjacent strings) from as many of those points as
you can as well. The big picture will begin to snap in.
If you feel like cheating later, see this page showing the C Major triad
mapped on the _entire_ fretboard, plus many smaller voicings isolated as
well. You'll see how you can isolate "inverted" triad voicings from the
greater pattern:
e.g:
Root position = R,3, 5
Root position = 3, 5, R
Root position = 5, R, 3
If you look closely at the fully mapped fretboard (rooted at "C"), you'll
see the five gross triad shapes often referred to as the "CAGED system"
triads. See the drawing at the bottom of this page isolating those so called
CAGED triads
http://www.thecipher.com/chord-encyclopedia.html
People have made built whole careers and livelihoods out of showing other
people that single pattern -- a C Major triad mapped-out on the fretboard
;')
Fretboard patterns are "moveable", so you'll see this pattern (and all other
patterns) re-aligned for every and all other tonic/roots, etc. So again,
it's that big picture idea that goes a long way towards understanding what's
going on under the hood, who all of those little bits of pattern relate to
the "whole".
later
Roger
"Roger E.Blumberg" <rblumber...@jps.net> wrote in message
news:_7EAb.3568$rP6....@newsread2.news.pas.earthlink.net...
Lon Smith
you are clumping them together, or seem to be. First is the understanding
of the term "key". This is actually short for "key signature" and is the
set of symbols at the beginning of a song. The tonal center of the song is
represented by the key signature, or at least is by anyone who has half an
idea what they are doing. It is better, in modern musical times to refer to
the tonal center of a song than the key. A song, scale or riff, in the key
of tonal center of A does not necessarily start on A, it resolves to A.
This means that the reference point is A. Reference... How far is San
Francisco? This means nothing unless I give you are reference point (From
New York?) What feeling or sound does the note combination A C F C create?
Nothing unless it is referenced against say C or A.
"Griffin" <sno...@optushome.com.aux> wrote in message
news:3fd2d94b$0$20482$afc3...@news.optusnet.com.au...
EDG
<lonremovesmith20remove_@_hotmail.netorcom you figure> wrote:
> Reading music and playing the guitar are two basically different things and
> you are clumping them together, or seem to be. First is the understanding
> of the term "key". This is actually short for "key signature" and is the
> set of symbols at the beginning of a song.
Slightly OT: No, it's not.
The key signature found at the beginning of music written on a staff
is literally what its name implies: the signature of the key in which
the piece is written, where "signature" means "(semi-)unique
identifier". Each key (within a group) has a key signature; this not
only lets the performer know what sound to expect from the song but
also indicates which notes are to be sharped or flatted automatically
throughout the piece.
The reason I specified "within a group" is because certain keys do
share key signatures (C major and A minor, for instance). However, no
other major key will have the same signature as C major, and no other
minor key will have the same signature as A minor.
The key, however, refers as you said to the tonal base of the piece in
question - the key signature just lets you know in advance in what key
you're playing.
To answer the original questions:
> The problem I'm having is that the author introduces the application
> of keys and assumes that it's so easy that it's obvious.
Unfortunately, there's a point at which you can't describe keys any
further; they need to be heard to be understood. Since I don't know
what text you're using, I can't be certain, but it's possible that the
author got to the farthest point he thought he could reach in the
description and then stopped.
> I can understand the 'C' scale (5/3, 4/0, 4/2,4/3, etc) and I
> can understand why it's called 'C', but... Why isn't the key of 'A'
> start at the A open (ie 5/0, 5/2, 5/3, etc) or does it? The same goes
> for 'E' (why not 6/0, etc).
The thing is, there's a difference between keys and scales.
A scale can actually start at any note in a key and proceed up,
although it might feel and sound a little weird to, for example, start
a C major scale on B. The E major scale can likewise start anywhere
in the E major key - so if you want to start on G sharp and move up,
that's perfectly valid.
The problem you're running into, though, is I think not one of the
starting note of the scale (i.e., starting a C major on B), but which
base note on the guitar to use. The main thing to keep track of here
is that the C you're playing on your guitar (5/3) is Middle C on the
musical staff. The instructor probably isn't using the bass staff, so
I'm guessing that the A scale you've been given starts at 3/2 instead
of 5/0; this is simply for simplicity's sake when writing out the
staves. You can just as easily start the A major scale at 5/0 and
you'll be playing the same notes, just an octave lower. (For
reference, it's 5/0 5/2 5/4 4/0 4/2 4/4 3/1 3/2.)
> Trying to relate this to the musical
> notation (sharps & flats on the staff) is another mystery. Do I just
> have to memorise all the combinations or is there some sort of method
> to it.
Unfortunately, key signatures (the sequence of sharps or flats at the
beginning of the staff) do have to be memorized; there isn't really a
method to it, except knowing which sharps or flats a key takes. ;)
(For reference, a key signature will *never* have both sharps and
flats in it - one type or the other, but not both.) As for
accidentals - sharps, flats, and naturals written directly next to the
notes themselves - there's a bit of memorization there, too, but the
trick is that once you know where a note is on the fretboard, sharping
that note moves it one fret "down" (toward the pickups or acoustic
hole), and flatting the note moves it one fret "up" (toward the
pegboard). There are two notes that will almost never be sharped - B
and E, because B sharp is C, and E sharp is F - and two notes that
will almost never be flatted - C and F, because C flat is B, and F
flat is E.
Some other things to keep in mind: on a musical staff, when you see an
accidental, every note of that tone will be affected by that
accidental until the end of the measure. (For instance, if you have a
measure where you're playing four B quarter notes, and the first B is
flatted, then *all* of the Bs are flatted, until the next bar.) Also,
a natural is a third type of accidental - shaped like a rhombus with
extra lines at the upper left and lower right, it indicates that you
should play the true tone of the note instead of any sharps or flats
that are on it. (In other words, if you have the same measure quoted
above - four B quarter notes - and the first is flatted, but the third
has a natural, then you'd play B-flat B-flat B B.) Like other
accidentals, a natural lasts until the end of the measure.
I include for the sake of completeness double-sharps and double-flats,
which you will almost never see. As their name implies, double-sharps
and double-flats take a note two steps away from its true tone. This
is almost always exactly the same as telling you to play the next true
note up or down, which is why they're almost never used.
I hope this helped!
-Chris A.
Griffin
a lesson and get it explained by example. I get the general idea and I'm
attempting to play "Study in G' by Fernando Sor (1 Sharp on the F line &
trebleclef) . For the moment I'll just start it off on 'G' (1/3) and see
where it takes me.
Thanks
"Roger E.Blumberg" <rblumber...@jps.net> wrote in message
news:_7EAb.3568$rP6....@newsread2.news.pas.earthlink.net...
Maggie Davey
> There are two notes that will almost never be sharped - B
> and E, because B sharp is C, and E sharp is F - and two notes that
> will almost never be flatted - C and F, because C flat is B, and F
> flat is E.
This is true only on fretted instruments. There is a difference between
B sharp and C, E sharp and F, C flat and B, and F flat and E, but it is
only available on non-fretted instruments [violin, viola, etc.]. You'll
never see these notes in music written or transcribed for guitar, since
you can't play them on a guitar. And you need a very good ear, and you
have to be paying close attention, to hear the difference.
> I include for the sake of completeness double-sharps and double-flats,
> which you will almost never see. As their name implies, double-sharps
> and double-flats take a note two steps away from its true tone. This
> is almost always exactly the same as telling you to play the next true
> note up or down, which is why they're almost never used.
On a non-fretted stringed instrument, doubling the sharp or flat means
that your raise or lower the tone 1/2 + 1/4 tone. Since the frets on a
guitar are 1/2 tone apart, it's impossible to play on that instrument,
and so can safely be ignored.
Otherwise a very clear explanation.
Maggie
--
'Without music, life would be a mistake.' -- Frederich Nietzsche
Maggie Davey
Hi, Griff,
You might find it useful to look up information on modes.
Whatever note you start on, you follow a pattern to make up the
particular scale you want. In the major scale, aka Ionian mode, you
want intervals between the notes to be [using C major as an example]: C
- whole tone - D - whole tone - E - half tone - F - whole tone - G -
whole tone - A - whole tone - B - half tone - C.
You put sharps or flats in the key signature to maintain these
relationships. Thus: D - whole tone - E - whole tone - F# - half tone -
G - whole tone - A - whole tone - B - whole tone - C# - half tone - D.
And: F - whole tone - G - whole tone - A - half tone - Bb - whole tone -
C - whole tone - D - whole tone - E - half tone - F.
The pattern for the minor scale, aka Aeolian mode, is whole tone - half
tone - whole tone - whole tone - half tone - whole tone - whole tone.
If you change the tonal centre of the scale, but not the key signature,
the relationships shift. So you have the following modes, with the
tonal relationships of each:
Ionian mode = WW1/2WWW1/2 ( = major scale)
Dorian mode = W1/2WWW1/2W
Phrygian mode = 1/2WWW1/2WW
Lydian mode = WWW1/2WW1/2
Mixolydian mode = WW1/2WW1/2W
Aeolian mode = W1/2WW1/2WW ( = minor scale)
Locrian mode = 1/2WW1/2WWW
The Ionian and Aeolian are the most commonly used, but Dorian,
Mixolydian and Locrian crop up often enough that it's worth being aware
of them. There are others, but you won't need to worry about them
unless and until you get into the history of music notation and music
theory -- or medieval or renaissance music. ;-)
You can start a scale in the key of C on any C on the fingerboard: 6/8,
5/3, 4/10, 2/1, etc. Ditto any other scale, and practicing scales
starting in different places on the fingerboard is quite a good way to
learn the fingerboard, when you're ready for it. [Go on, have a go!
Have enough "goes" over time, and you'll crack it.]
I hope this is enough of an explanation to be getting on with, but a
google search on modes, or on any particular mode, should provide useful
pointers to sites that explain a bit better than I can.
Good luck,
EDG
<basset...@hotmail.com> wrote:
> This is true only on fretted instruments. There is a difference between
> B sharp and C, E sharp and F, C flat and B, and F flat and E, but it is
> only available on non-fretted instruments [violin, viola, etc.].
Well, this is a convention for non-fretted instruments rather than
"true" flatting and sharping - which require half-step deviations -
but I'll give you the point. :) In fact, though, it's somewhat more
accurate to say that it's true on everything except a string
instrument with non-fixed tones; I hesitate to say non-fretted,
because pianos aren't fretted but the same limitations apply to them
as to fretted instruments. Both piano and saxophone, the other two
instruments I play, ignore quarter-steps, though.
Well, functionally. You can *get* quarter-steps - just like you can
on a guitar - but it's more of a pain than it's worth most of the
time, especially with a piano. ;)
> On a non-fretted stringed instrument, doubling the sharp or flat means
> that your raise or lower the tone 1/2 + 1/4 tone. Since the frets on a
> guitar are 1/2 tone apart, it's impossible to play on that instrument,
> and so can safely be ignored.
I've actually seen double-sharps and double-flats in music for both
piano and saxophone; they have a specific use, but I'll be damned if I
can remember what it is off the top of my head.
> Otherwise a very clear explanation.
Thanks! :) And thank you for the clarifications. I've never played
instruments without fixed tones,
-Chris A.
Chuck
<basset...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>EDG wrote:
>
>> There are two notes that will almost never be sharped - B
>> and E, because B sharp is C, and E sharp is F - and two notes that
>> will almost never be flatted - C and F, because C flat is B, and F
>> flat is E.
I beg to differ with you on part of your statements here. While E
and B may hardly ever show up sharp, they do in fact at times show up
sharp and when they do, they are E# and B#, they are called E# and B#,
and there are good and sufficient reasons why.
Example: What notes are required in order to make up an A+ chord? ??
Answer: A, C# and E#! _NOT_ A, C#, and F!!! While it's true that the
E# will be played precisely where the F is played, the note is an E#
and it's called and E#!
Another example: What notes are required to effect an A7#9? Answer:
A, C#, E, and B#! _B#_ ... _NOT_ C! B@ and C are "enharmonic" and
played at the same fret[s], but they are two different notes on the
staff and they are called, respectfully, B# and C!
Same thing goes for Fb and Cb. There are times when the correct
designation would be Fb and/or Cb In those instance the staff would
show either Fb or Cb and that's what you would call the notes. Bb7b9=
Bb, D, F, and Cb!
There are many other valid examples of Cb, Fb, C#, and E# being used.
EDG
wrote:
(I'm quoting my original text to demonstrate a point.)
> >EDG wrote:
> >
> >> There are two notes that will almost never be sharped - B
> >> and E, because B sharp is C, and E sharp is F - and two notes that
> >> will almost never be flatted - C and F, because C flat is B, and F
> >> flat is E.
>
> I beg to differ with you on part of your statements here. While E
> and B may hardly ever show up sharp, they do in fact at times show up
> sharp and when they do, they are E# and B#, they are called E# and B#,
> and there are good and sufficient reasons why.
First: You'll note I said "almost never".
Second: With all due respect, you're using a non-standard notation
system. In standard notation, A+ is A C# F, et cetera. The only
reason to label A+ as A C# E# is to be overly picky about the
relationship between the original A major chord and the A+ chord.
Another way to look at it is that E# *is* F, in terms of where it's
played, how it's played, and the frequency of the note. If you want
to call it E#, that's fine. It's just that everybody else is going to
look at you kind of funny.
> staff and they are called, respectfully, B# and C!
The term you want is "respectively".
-Chris A.
Mike C.
wrong to use their enharmonic equivalents when they are called for. If one
is in the key of C#, one doesn't call spell the tonic chord C#, F, and G#.
That's more confusing than the "non-existent" E#! Same with the G#Maj chord.
There *are* very appropriate places to use these enharmonic equivalents.
Another reason to use E# in the A+ chord is to show a more appropriate
resolution to the I chord. There are more accidentals that must be written
if you resolve A, C#, F to the DMaj chord(D, F#, and A).
--
Mike C.
"And those who were seen dancing were thought to be insane by those who
could
not hear the music."
--Friedrich Nietzsche
"EDG" <here...@mirrorscape.net> wrote in message
news:kc29tvcrdq1sqjtea...@4ax.com...
Chuck
wrote:
>On Mon, 08 Dec 2003 08:44:39 -0500, Chuck <chuck1...@yahoo.com>
>wrote:
>
>(I'm quoting my original text to demonstrate a point.)
>
>> >EDG wrote:
>> >
>> >> There are two notes that will almost never be sharped - B
>> >> and E, because B sharp is C, and E sharp is F - and two notes that
>> >> will almost never be flatted - C and F, because C flat is B, and F
>> >> flat is E.
>>
>> I beg to differ with you on part of your statements here. While E
>> and B may hardly ever show up sharp, they do in fact at times show up
>> sharp and when they do, they are E# and B#, they are called E# and B#,
>> and there are good and sufficient reasons why.
>
>First: You'll note I said "almost never".
>
>Second: With all due respect, you're using a non-standard notation
>system. In standard notation, A+ is A C# F, et cetera. The only
>reason to label A+ as A C# E# is to be overly picky about the
>relationship between the original A major chord and the A+ chord.
Non standard notation system? Not at all!
The "+" means, as I'm sure you are aware, to sharp the 5th note. In A,
the 5th is an E ... NOT AN F! In the key of A the F is already
sharped and is the 6th. The + means you sharp the 5th ... YOU DO NOT
FLAT THE 6TH!
As far as "standard notation" is coucerned, how else could you
_PROPERLY_ show the # 5th in the key of A Major other than to place an
E note on the staff with the accidental # in front of it??? The #5th
in the key of A Major is not an F note!! Either way you note it will
require an accidental ... why not do it _RIGHT???
Just in passing, I happen to occasionally jam with a bass player that
repeatedly refers to the F# chord, whether Major or minor, [while
playing in the key of A Major] as a "Gb"! He'll make the same blunder
when playing in the key of D Major ... instead of calling the F#m an
F#m, he'll call it a Gbm! Granted, the chords are played the same way,
but he is showing his ignorance when he issists on using the wrong
names for the chords.
Ignorance is excusable ... up to a point! But the reasons the chords
[in the A and D major referred to above] are called F# and not Gb are
really elementary and simple to understand for anyone that wishes to
understand. The use of E#, B#, Fb, Cb [and so on], both in calling hte
name of the note and showing it on the staff, are perhaps a bit more
abstract, but not very much so and just as valid.
>Another way to look at it is that E# *is* F, in terms of where it's
>played, how it's played, and the frequency of the note. If you want
>to call it E#, that's fine. It's just that everybody else is going to
>look at you kind of funny.
If you sharp a C note, what do you call it? C#? Or Db? They're played
the exact same way on a guitar! They are exactly the same pitch when
played on a guitar! They sound the same! But what do you call it when
you sharp a C if you want to be correct???? How would you "note" it on
the staff? C#? Or Db? That is if you were using "standard notation"
You know the answer!
So, why would you treat the C note any differntly if you were to flat
the C??? YOU WOULDN'T!! You'd call it and not it as a Cb that is if
you were using standard notation and were knowledgable enough! Or why
do you think you'd treat an E note any differently if you sharp it?
YOU DON'T .... NOT IF YOU WANT TO BE CORRECT, YOU DON'T!
Only those who are totally ignorant of elementary music theory will
look at me kind of funny and not understand. ;o) And, BTW ... I have
theory books here that back me up 100% ... even if I did do a typo on
"respectively". ;o)
Frank
names were.
- Frank
Vinh Trinh
Look up the CAGED system. It is a system that diagrams the scales
connected across the entire fretboard. Memorize these scale patterns
so you can do them without mistake very easily. Keep practicing these
up down backward forward for a 3 or 4 months allowing the sound of the
intervals soak into your head. Once you do this, then try to recreate
the sounds all the way down one string, once you read the bottom, move
across 1 string and go all the way the other direction, recreating the
intervals you have embedded into your head but now it is by ear. If
you notice youa re making mistakes, train your brain more by doing the
patterns without mistake again. Keep doing this back and forth and you
will soon be on your way to becoming a great musician.
- Vinh