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Pre-amp pedals straight to power amp???
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SotR
Nov 21, 2011, 8:26:20 PM11/21/11
to
I have a nice stereo power amp that I would like to use for my bass rig instead of my current amp which is giving me some problems and that I don't really want to sink $$$ into. Mainly because I was never that thrilled with the tone anyway.
Is using a good pedal pre-amp straight into a power amp ok to do? I haven't done a lot research yet in case this is not a feasable scenario but I'm thinking along the lines of units like the Aguilar Tone Hammer, Sansamp VT Deluxe, Hartke VXL Bass Attack. EBS Valve Drive etc. ect. I'd like to keep in the under $300 range so the available rack mount pre's are a little out of my price range.
Thanks
George
Is using a good pedal pre-amp straight into a power amp ok to do? I haven't done a lot research yet in case this is not a feasable scenario but I'm thinking along the lines of units like the Aguilar Tone Hammer, Sansamp VT Deluxe, Hartke VXL Bass Attack. EBS Valve Drive etc. ect. I'd like to keep in the under $300 range so the available rack mount pre's are a little out of my price range.
Thanks
George
Derek Tearne
Nov 21, 2011, 9:50:11 PM11/21/11
to
SotR <suitebarber...@gmail.com> wrote:
> Is using a good pedal pre-amp straight into a power amp ok to do?
Assuming that yourre talking about a PA power amp, and full range or
> Is using a good pedal pre-amp straight into a power amp ok to do?
bass speakers that should work - but with the caveat that most pedal
type pre-amps are intended to go into the instument input of a bass amp,
so the output level might not be the line level / low impedance signal
your power amp is looking for.
For example, the sansamp VT deluxe 1/4" output has an output boost
switch with an instrument level and line level position. The XLR output
has a similar feature.
Whatever you buy, considering your intended use, you should check for a
similar feature or specific mention of being able to drive a power amp.
--- Derek
--
Derek Tearne - de...@url.co.nz
Vitamin S: improvisation from New Zealand http://www.vitamin-s.co.nz/
d'Groove: 12 piece party/covers band http://www.dGroove.co.nz/
Jim
Nov 21, 2011, 10:44:10 PM11/21/11
to
for the flat response of a power amp.
SotR
Nov 22, 2011, 3:02:53 AM11/22/11
to
To Derek and Jim
Actually I asked the question because I have no idea if a pedal has the guts (as in configuration) to work as a stand alone pre-amp. At this point it's not really a matter of which brand, just if it will work at all. If so then I can then start to look at particular units.
I have listened to all the clips on "Bass Tasters" but doubt any of them are done this way.
The power amp is a Carvin DCM 600. We were using it for our PA mains but bought a new 4000 watt power amp and now this amp is not getting used. The Carvin is clean, powerful, solid and still like new. I know people use them for bass and guitar but usually with a full on dedicated rack mount preamp.
I do understand that pedals are usually intended to go before a regular amp but I didn't know about the level/impedance miss-match straight to a power amp. But if I could find a pedal that would work then that would be pretty cool and easy. The problem I have is I live in a small area and nobody carries anything in this catagory to experiment with so I would have to order it. I just want to know that at least "yes, with the right unit it will work" before I pursue the whole idea.
Thanks for the input guys.
George
Actually I asked the question because I have no idea if a pedal has the guts (as in configuration) to work as a stand alone pre-amp. At this point it's not really a matter of which brand, just if it will work at all. If so then I can then start to look at particular units.
I have listened to all the clips on "Bass Tasters" but doubt any of them are done this way.
The power amp is a Carvin DCM 600. We were using it for our PA mains but bought a new 4000 watt power amp and now this amp is not getting used. The Carvin is clean, powerful, solid and still like new. I know people use them for bass and guitar but usually with a full on dedicated rack mount preamp.
I do understand that pedals are usually intended to go before a regular amp but I didn't know about the level/impedance miss-match straight to a power amp. But if I could find a pedal that would work then that would be pretty cool and easy. The problem I have is I live in a small area and nobody carries anything in this catagory to experiment with so I would have to order it. I just want to know that at least "yes, with the right unit it will work" before I pursue the whole idea.
Thanks for the input guys.
George
be...@iwaynet.net
Nov 22, 2011, 4:16:21 AM11/22/11
to
On 11/22/2011 3:02 AM, SotR wrote:
> To Derek and Jim
> I do understand that pedals are usually intended to go before a regular
amp but I didn't know about the level/impedance miss-match straight to a
power amp. But if I could find a pedal that would work then that would be
pretty cool and easy. The problem I have is I live in a small area and
nobody
carries anything in this catagory to experiment with so I would have to
order it.
I just want to know that at least "yes, with the right unit it will work"
before I pursue the whole idea.
Not Derek or Jim here, but my experience is a big "almost". The problem
when I have done this is that the amps usually take just a hair more
output voltage than some pedals provide. So you hook it up and you
think, "hmmm. this output seems a bit low. There is not impedance
matching problem as far as I could tell (there would be if you put a
passive bass direct to the amp). So I often used a thing similar to the
Sansamp DI (mine is called "ultra DI" or something like that it has
gain, it has a bit of EQ and matches an amp VERY nicely as well as being
a DI that can feed a mic channel if you choose. Not as nice as a rack
preamp with a full set of controls, but still very useable. So your
scheme can work IF you can find a pedal with lots of clean output drive
that you can put last in the chain. But finding that one may take some
experimenting.
And another thing you have to watch with PA amps is clipping when
over-driven. Bass power amps often have soft limiters that let you play
close to the amp limit without driving it into hard clipping. My Fender
PA amp actually has that and it's a VERY nice thing to have when you are
using the amp for bass! Since you apparently will have a lot of power
this may not be a problem but is something to look out for.
> To Derek and Jim
> I do understand that pedals are usually intended to go before a regular
amp but I didn't know about the level/impedance miss-match straight to a
power amp. But if I could find a pedal that would work then that would be
pretty cool and easy. The problem I have is I live in a small area and
nobody
carries anything in this catagory to experiment with so I would have to
order it.
I just want to know that at least "yes, with the right unit it will work"
before I pursue the whole idea.
when I have done this is that the amps usually take just a hair more
output voltage than some pedals provide. So you hook it up and you
think, "hmmm. this output seems a bit low. There is not impedance
matching problem as far as I could tell (there would be if you put a
passive bass direct to the amp). So I often used a thing similar to the
Sansamp DI (mine is called "ultra DI" or something like that it has
gain, it has a bit of EQ and matches an amp VERY nicely as well as being
a DI that can feed a mic channel if you choose. Not as nice as a rack
preamp with a full set of controls, but still very useable. So your
scheme can work IF you can find a pedal with lots of clean output drive
that you can put last in the chain. But finding that one may take some
experimenting.
And another thing you have to watch with PA amps is clipping when
over-driven. Bass power amps often have soft limiters that let you play
close to the amp limit without driving it into hard clipping. My Fender
PA amp actually has that and it's a VERY nice thing to have when you are
using the amp for bass! Since you apparently will have a lot of power
this may not be a problem but is something to look out for.
SotR
Nov 22, 2011, 4:58:20 AM11/22/11
to
Thanks BJA
I'm beginning to think this is probably not the best idea. My Carvin does have a built-in limiter which they encourage to be used at all times. But still, it seems finding a pedal that will do the trick will probably be more trouble that it is worth.
I think I'll probably just bite the bullet and buy a new amp. I really like the Carvin BX500. I have actually played through one at the Hollywood CA. Carvin factory store and they sound great. And at $369 not so far out of my budget as to not be doable.
George
I'm beginning to think this is probably not the best idea. My Carvin does have a built-in limiter which they encourage to be used at all times. But still, it seems finding a pedal that will do the trick will probably be more trouble that it is worth.
I think I'll probably just bite the bullet and buy a new amp. I really like the Carvin BX500. I have actually played through one at the Hollywood CA. Carvin factory store and they sound great. And at $369 not so far out of my budget as to not be doable.
George
Derek Tearne
Nov 22, 2011, 5:39:16 AM11/22/11
to
SotR <suitebarber...@gmail.com> wrote:
> Thanks BJA
> I'm beginning to think this is probably not the best idea. My Carvin does
> have a built-in limiter which they encourage to be used at all times.
> But still, it seems finding a pedal that will do the trick will probably
> be more trouble that it is worth.
I don't think that's the case. Several of the items you mentioned will
> Thanks BJA
> I'm beginning to think this is probably not the best idea. My Carvin does
> have a built-in limiter which they encourage to be used at all times.
> But still, it seems finding a pedal that will do the trick will probably
> be more trouble that it is worth.
drive that power amp perfectly fine. Almost any of the Tech 21 Sansamp
products or the VT deluxe will do this, the Aguilar Tone Hammer also
states that it can drive a power amp. Aguilar have a great reputation
for pre-amps as do Tech 21. I'd be mildly suspicious of a 9volt pedal
with an actual valve in it as that seems a bit gimmicky to me.
I have a VT Bass pedal which is great in terms of tone shaping options -
the VT deluxe has the same tone shaping, 6 different selectable tones,
and is designed to be able to go straight into a power amp.
Given your stated aim and budget I'd have thought that would be a no
brainer.
I wasn't trying to put you off the idea, just make sure you knew about
the input level/impedance issue and limited your thinking to the several
fine products which deal with that.
There are also other options like DTar solstice blender/pre-amp - which
would do a great job as a front end and is in your budget. However, you
appeared to be looking for tubey tones so I didn't suggest that.
Les Cargill
Nov 22, 2011, 8:27:57 AM11/22/11
to
units involved. If both are solid state then you're probably okay. But
there was a long thread on the amps group concerning an Alembic preamp
and a SS power amp where the match was fairly poor.
--
Les Cargill
Les Cargill
Nov 22, 2011, 8:36:05 AM11/22/11
to
Derek Tearne wrote:
> SotR<suitebarber...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> Is using a good pedal pre-amp straight into a power amp ok to do?
>
> Assuming that yourre talking about a PA power amp, and full range or
> bass speakers that should work - but with the caveat that most pedal
> type pre-amps are intended to go into the instument input of a bass amp,
> so the output level might not be the line level / low impedance signal
> your power amp is looking for.
>
> For example, the sansamp VT deluxe 1/4" output has an output boost
> switch with an instrument level and line level position. The XLR output
> has a similar feature.
>
> Whatever you buy, considering your intended use, you should check for a
> similar feature or specific mention of being able to drive a power amp.
>
> --- Derek
>
Even then, you may need to know the expected input impedance and
> SotR<suitebarber...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> Is using a good pedal pre-amp straight into a power amp ok to do?
>
> Assuming that yourre talking about a PA power amp, and full range or
> bass speakers that should work - but with the caveat that most pedal
> type pre-amps are intended to go into the instument input of a bass amp,
> so the output level might not be the line level / low impedance signal
> your power amp is looking for.
>
> For example, the sansamp VT deluxe 1/4" output has an output boost
> switch with an instrument level and line level position. The XLR output
> has a similar feature.
>
> Whatever you buy, considering your intended use, you should check for a
> similar feature or specific mention of being able to drive a power amp.
>
> --- Derek
>
input voltage range of the power amp. This can be surprisingly
hard information to come by.
--
Les Cargill
Oci-One Kanubi
Nov 22, 2011, 10:50:10 AM11/22/11
to
www.carvin.com! They probably have something sitting in their
showroom that will do the job perfectly.
I mean, it's a Carvin amp, and Carvin carries a full line of bass
equipment, including effects processors, so they're very likely to
have a solution for you.
I have always found their telephone sales AND their service/tech-
support people to be very helpful*.
-Richard, His Bassic Travesty
* Their showroom staff in the Rancho Bernardo factory has never seemed
nearly so helpful, but I'm going to give them another chance when I am
in San Diego this Christmas. In January I'll be ordering a pair of
powered subwoofers for our PA, and I want to nail down all the details
of how to set them up with our 1648 Mixer, 16x8 snake, and powered
mains & monitors -- there are not quite enough busses on the mixer and
snake unless I dedicate two of the six monitor busses to the subs, so
I need to learn whether they have built-in crossovers so that they can
accept the same signal as the mains and filter it appropriately. It's
not like we need more than 4 monitor mixes anyway, but I'd like to
optimize the system and keep as many options open as possible, for
potential expansion. -R, HBT
Brian Running
Nov 22, 2011, 11:04:04 AM11/22/11
to
On Nov 21, 7:26 pm, SotR <suitebarbershopquar...@gmail.com> wrote:
> I have a nice stereo power amp that I would like to use for my bass rig instead of my current amp which is giving me some problems and that I don't really want to sink $$$ into. Mainly because I was never that thrilled with the tone anyway.
> Is using a good pedal pre-amp straight into a power amp ok to do? I haven't done a lot research yet in case this is not a feasable scenario but I'm thinking along the lines of units like the Aguilar Tone Hammer, Sansamp VT Deluxe, Hartke VXL Bass Attack. EBS Valve Drive etc. ect. I'd like to keep in the under $300 range so the available rack mount pre's are a little out of my price range.
Sure, pedals can work fine right into the power amp. Heck, I've got a
> I have a nice stereo power amp that I would like to use for my bass rig instead of my current amp which is giving me some problems and that I don't really want to sink $$$ into. Mainly because I was never that thrilled with the tone anyway.
> Is using a good pedal pre-amp straight into a power amp ok to do? I haven't done a lot research yet in case this is not a feasable scenario but I'm thinking along the lines of units like the Aguilar Tone Hammer, Sansamp VT Deluxe, Hartke VXL Bass Attack. EBS Valve Drive etc. ect. I'd like to keep in the under $300 range so the available rack mount pre's are a little out of my price range.
Spector bass that can drive a power amp all by itself. I've also got
a DOD bass effects pedal board, I can't remember the name of it now,
that drives a power amp just fine. The newer SansAmp Bass Driver DIs
will drive an amp. Plenty of choices. I still prefer the rack-
mounted pre, I use a BBE BMax, it does everything I need, and it sells
for $300, so I don't think you should write off that possibility. I
see Musician's Friend has a used one for $239:
http://www.musiciansfriend.com/bass/bbe-bmax-solid-state-bass-guitar-preamplifier
This one intrigues me, too, I'd like to try it with an electric bass:
http://www.musiciansfriend.com/guitars/bbe-acoustimax-sonic-maximizer-preamp-pedal
Pt
Nov 22, 2011, 2:00:49 PM11/22/11
to
On Nov 22, 10:04 am, Brian Running <running.br...@gmail.com> wrote:
> On Nov 21, 7:26 pm, SotR <suitebarbershopquar...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > I have a nice stereo power amp that I would like to use for my bass rig instead of my current amp which is giving me some problems and that I don't really want to sink $$$ into. Mainly because I was never that thrilled with the tone anyway.
> > Is using a good pedal pre-amp straight into a power amp ok to do? I haven't done a lot research yet in case this is not a feasable scenario but I'm thinking along the lines of units like the Aguilar Tone Hammer, Sansamp VT Deluxe, Hartke VXL Bass Attack. EBS Valve Drive etc. ect. I'd like to keep in the under $300 range so the available rack mount pre's are a little out of my price range.
>
> Sure, pedals can work fine right into the power amp. Heck, I've got a
> Spector bass that can drive a power amp all by itself. I've also got
> a DOD bass effects pedal board, I can't remember the name of it now,
> that drives a power amp just fine. The newer SansAmp Bass Driver DIs
> will drive an amp. Plenty of choices. I still prefer the rack-
> mounted pre, I use a BBE BMax, it does everything I need, and it sells
> for $300, so I don't think you should write off that possibility. I
> see Musician's Friend has a used one for $239:
>
> http://www.musiciansfriend.com/bass/bbe-bmax-solid-state-bass-guitar-...
> On Nov 21, 7:26 pm, SotR <suitebarbershopquar...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > I have a nice stereo power amp that I would like to use for my bass rig instead of my current amp which is giving me some problems and that I don't really want to sink $$$ into. Mainly because I was never that thrilled with the tone anyway.
> > Is using a good pedal pre-amp straight into a power amp ok to do? I haven't done a lot research yet in case this is not a feasable scenario but I'm thinking along the lines of units like the Aguilar Tone Hammer, Sansamp VT Deluxe, Hartke VXL Bass Attack. EBS Valve Drive etc. ect. I'd like to keep in the under $300 range so the available rack mount pre's are a little out of my price range.
>
> Sure, pedals can work fine right into the power amp. Heck, I've got a
> Spector bass that can drive a power amp all by itself. I've also got
> a DOD bass effects pedal board, I can't remember the name of it now,
> that drives a power amp just fine. The newer SansAmp Bass Driver DIs
> will drive an amp. Plenty of choices. I still prefer the rack-
> mounted pre, I use a BBE BMax, it does everything I need, and it sells
> for $300, so I don't think you should write off that possibility. I
> see Musician's Friend has a used one for $239:
>
>
> This one intrigues me, too, I'd like to try it with an electric bass:
>
> http://www.musiciansfriend.com/guitars/bbe-acoustimax-sonic-maximizer...
> This one intrigues me, too, I'd like to try it with an electric bass:
>
I used to use a sonic maximizer with my acoustic/electric Ovation.
Can't ask for a better sounding acoustic guitar.
Never tried it with a bass.
Pt
Jim
Nov 22, 2011, 2:47:01 PM11/22/11
to
Carvin says that you need 1V RMS for full output, and that input
impedance is 20k when used in balanced mode. Generally speaking, I
don't think you'll have an impedance problem because pedals usually
match up with low impedance inputs.
I'm betting any pedal capable of 1V CONTINUOUS output will work. The
question is will you like the tone. That's where I'm guessing that a
device that is designed for a flat system, like the SansAmp Bass DI, may
sound better.
Even this will work, using the mixer output:
http://www.digitech.com/en/products/bass-driver Just test drive in
advance or buy from a seller that gives a good return policy!
Lonnie Mack
Nov 22, 2011, 3:11:26 PM11/22/11
to
The Taylors
Nov 22, 2011, 11:04:24 PM11/22/11
to
<Is using a good pedal pre-amp straight into a power amp ok to do?>
Well, knowing naught about MOST of the techie stuff you guys all know....I
got caught with a dead amp at the gig, and it's time to play. I have a
SansAmp Tech21..from b4 they were called Bassdriver DIs and such, tho it
looks a lot like that one. Anyway, I ran my Lightwave bass thru the Tech21
into the board and thru FOH. Put just a dab into the monitors so I had an
idee whether I was playing in the right key (at least part of the time!)
They TELL me it sounded fine out front. I'm actually contemplating using it
a couple weeks from now in a VERY small venue where being loud is a key
component of never playin' there again! lol
Stipo
SotR
Nov 23, 2011, 12:56:26 AM11/23/11
to
Wow, thanks for all the new info and insights everyone. Much food for thought. I really like the tones from the Sansamp VT Deluxe that I have heard on YouTube and so far that is the front runner even if I wind up using it in front of a standard bass amp. But if it works with the set-up I first described, even better.
George
George
be...@iwaynet.net
Nov 24, 2011, 4:52:55 AM11/24/11
to
good out front, but the thrill comes when you are standing BEHIND the
speakers, sound guy, or non-existent sound guy won't put bass into
monitors (he never does, he says) and you do the gig listening to the
delayed bass bouncing back off the rear wall of the club. Yep THIS is
when you wish you had in-ear monitors! But the up side of all this is
when you come waltzing into the gig with just your bass case like a horn
player!
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