Practical bass skills
js
Learn how to play piano, at least enough to recognize the lowest note on
sight.
Learn guitar shapes - not just 'farmers row", but 7th chords, barre chords,
partial shapes, etc.
Learn your cadences - ii-V-I, IV-V-I, vi-ii-V-I, iii-vi-ii-V-I, etc. Learn
what they sound like and que into it so you can jump right in. Learn to
recognize when the cadences are moving from key to key.
Know your keys and key sigs. How many flats in Eb major? What is its
relative minor? What does it sound like when you modulate to the key of IV?
Is A major or minor in the key of G? D? Bb? What scale degree is it in the
relative minor?
If you play jazz, have your TT subs down cold. Know your circle of 5ths, and
how the chromatic scale relates to it.
It will save your ass on many occasions. Trust me.
the HoSt
"js" <not...@nothing.com> wrote in message news:gbcuho$1ti$1...@aioe.org...
I aint got no time fer lessons, just let me beat on the dang thang...
H.
RichL
One great advantage of learning piano first, guitar second, and finally
bass is that all of this stuff was already down by the time I took up
bass seriously. But it's great advice, irrespective of that.
Steve Freides
A keeper - great post.
A reminder - most of this stuff can be learned at your local community
college in a classroom setting. The recommended order where I teach,
for those who don't read music at all, is to take class piano first,
which will both get you playing the piano a bit _and_ get you reading
music. After that, it's music theory I which, where I teach, covers the
basics of major and minor scales, intervals, triads and seventh chords.
-S-
SheaNC
8^)
Muso
Okay, but are you a strong teacher or a weak teacher? With all of
your whining, I can't really tell.
js
"Muso" <MikeMan...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:c7502101-c85b-4d50...@s50g2000hsb.googlegroups.com...
js
like this is some highfalutin music theory egghead stuff.
I'm saying "If you want to be able to sub at a moments notice or play a song
you've never heard on the spot or figure out WTF the lead is doing when he
just launches into some song without telling you, or you just don't want to
spend 6 weeks in the basement trying to learn songs and get a set together,
these are things you should know how to do."
These are things you can teach yourself for the most part. Lots of this info
is available for FREE on the interwebs. It's mostly just practicing it to
the point where you can do it on a gig, and then doing it enough to
internalize it.
Played a sub gig where I had to do all of this at once on virtually every
song, and it just made me think about how important these survival skills
are.
"js" <not...@nothing.com> wrote in message news:gbcuho$1ti$1...@aioe.org...
pTooner
what's "farmer's row?" Also, I run into this a lot at blue grass jams
and it's damned hard to read a barre chord at any appreciable distance
or angle, do you have any suggestions there?
On another subject, (My education is actually in engineering, not music)
I know the relative minors, but I've never really figured out what the
practical use is. Can you expound there? I'm planning on playing for
an open mic thing tomorrow where there will be lots of original music so
it will be a bit of a challenge most likely - that's why I'm asking the
above.
Gerry
Les Cargill
I swear. There is nothing wrong with most musicians that six
months of piano lessons won't make one heck of a lot better.
--
Les Cargill
Muso
> Send me some money and you'll find out.
I already know.
js
reflection.
And with a name like "Muso", one would think you'd know all of this already.
"Muso" <MikeMan...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:0e6c527b-974c-4b28...@c58g2000hsc.googlegroups.com...
Gary Rosen
"pTooner" <gedd...@bellsouth.net> wrote in message
news:duACk.35779$kh2....@bignews3.bellsouth.net...
John's advice is great but bluegrass is a little different thing. It's
mostly just 1-4-5 chords with an occasional 2 (and even more
occasional 6 or 3) but the trick is to listen for the chord changes
since they often come at non-obvious places, at least relative
to other styles. And play really, really simple.
- Gary Rosen
js
Most of the time I'm not looking at the actual notes in the chord, just the
shape and what string/fret the last note is on. For something like open D,
A, E, the hand shape alone tells me the root is open.
E string barres tend to be a 3 or 4 finger affair, with the second finger a
few strings from the first. Without the second finger, it's minor
A string barres are usually 2 or 3 fingers. Using the second finger on an
Abarre usually means it's minor. A massive oversimplification I know, but
you don't have time to puzzle out all the possibilities when you're playing
on the fly.
relative major/minor: This is a big subject, but I'll try to be brief.
basically, it means that every major key signature shares the same note with
a minor scale hose root is the 6th scale step of the major key. In other
words, the Key of G has 1 sharp, F#. If you count up 6 steps - G A B C D E -
E minor also shares the key signature of 1 sharp, F#
Why is this important?
1) A lot of times you are called on to improv bass lines, solos, fake a
tune, etc. Rather than hunting and pecking for the right notes, if you know
what sharps and flats the key contains, then you will AUTOMATICALLY play the
right notes.
For example, the Key of A has 3 sharps F# C# and G#. All the rest of the
notes are natural. As long as I play those the notes as sharp when I hit
them, I'm in the key of A. I don't even have to check the F or C naturals to
see if they're "good"
2) Since the minor shares the same signature, knowing both saves you time
when playing in a minor key. Also, many songs modulate to their relative
minors, during a bridge for example. Knowing that you're still in the same
"relative" key even though it sounds like minor is a big help.
3) The Chords themselves are built from these same key signatures. Ever
wonder why A is minor in the key of G MAJOR? It's because of the key
signature and the way it interacts with diatonic chord construction.
Hope that answers your questions.
"pTooner" <gedd...@bellsouth.net> wrote in message
news:duACk.35779$kh2....@bignews3.bellsouth.net...
Jim Carr
> Interesting thoughts, I have a couple of questions, though. FIrst,
> what's "farmer's row?" Also, I run into this a lot at blue grass jams
> and it's damned hard to read a barre chord at any appreciable distance
> or angle, do you have any suggestions there?
The two chords most often barred are E and A. Forgive me for using tab,
but here are the open shapes (string by letter followed by the fret.
"A" Chord
E-0
B-2
G-2
D-2
A-0
E-0
"E" Chord
0
0
1
2
2
0
So, in *general* there are two things you can look at quickly. First,
what's the top string being fretted? If it's the A string, then it's a
barred E chord; otherwise, it's barred A. Second, what's the *bottom*
string being fretted? If it's the G string (heh, I said g-string), then
it's a barred E chord. If it's the B string, it's a barred A chord.
Here's another clue. A barred A is often done with a single finger
(ring), but you won't see that with a barred E. Sometimes you see barred
A chords done with three fingers. If so, the pinkie will be in the
bottom position. On a barred E chord, the bottom finger will be the
middle finger.
For me those two visual cues will tell you the root of the chord very
quickly. Note: By "fretted" I mean fretted by a finger other than the
one making the "bar" (forefinger). The bar finger only tells you the
root. Look at the other fingers for the shape.
Of course, guitarists can and do bar other chords and use other
fingerings, but not nearly as often in my experience. One shape I've
seen a lot is moving the F chord up the neck.
1
1
2
3
0
0
When they do this, you usually won't see a bar chord. The E and A
strings will be muted. So look for the forefinger fretting the bottom
two strings. The root note is on the D string. In my experience I
usually see this used to make G and A chords.
> On another subject, (My education is actually in engineering, not music)
> I know the relative minors, but I've never really figured out what the
> practical use is. Can you expound there? I'm planning on playing for
> an open mic thing tomorrow where there will be lots of original music so
> it will be a bit of a challenge most likely - that's why I'm asking the
> above.
In my mind they are simply alternate names for the same key signature,
which means they have the same scale.
Part of learning how to follow a guitarist is combining the visual tips
above with some theory. While there are no hard and fast rules, you can
make some educated guesses very quickly as to what chords they are hitting.
Let's say you know the bar chord is A (E shape at the 5th fret). If the
hand stays in the same position but the shape changes, it's probably now
a D chord. If the hand shifts down one fret and the shape changes, I'm
betting C#m. If it changes shape and goes up two frets, you probably got
yourself and E. Likewise it might drop down to an open E.
If the hand shifts down three frets with a slight alteration to the
shape (lifting the middle finger), I'm betting F#m. It *could* be a Bm,
so you have to use the visual cues to help you along (middle finger
won't be lifted). I say Bm because if the guitarist wanted to hit a B,
he'd probably move up two frets. The song will usually have a feel that
also gives you a big clue.
Learn the open shapes as well. This site lists them:
www.guitaralliance.com/guitar_lessons/guitar_chords/common_open_chords.htm
I'd also recommend one other thing to listen/watch for: the 7th. A lot
of rock uses a flat seventh whereas more "melodic" (in my mind) music
uses the major 7th.
--
Write a wise saying and your name will live forever.
- Anonymous
Jonathan
> and
> how the chromatic scale relates to it.
>
> It will save your ass on many occasions. Trust me.
Hey John,
I'm pretty good on this stuff (and 10 years of jazz guitar as a hobby
helps a LOT), I've even been doing several gigs a month where I have to
spend part of the night reading the keyboard players left hand.
However, I'm not good with TT subs. I understand just the most basic
concept but little application. Where do you go to work on that, if not to
a teacher?
-Jonathan
Jim Carr
I had to go look up what a TT sub is. I stumbled across this FWIW.
"First let me clear up some things about substitutions, when you play
one, assume that the bassist doesn't know you are going to do it and you
don't need to mention it. This means when you play your substitution, he
will not have a clue and play the bass note of the original chord on the
chart. This is a good thing. If he played to bass note of your sub, it
wouldn't be a sub, it would be a reharminization."
There are not tritone substitutions in "Brown Eyed Girl" so I never
learned anything about them.
js
Standard definition:
TT sub = 6 semitones (b5/#4) from initial dom 7chord. So D7=Ab7, and vice
versa
Reason being, they share the same 3-7 tritone, reversed:
D7 = D F# A C
Ab7 = Ab C Eb Gb (F#)
What's REALLY happening is that you're replacing the V-I progression with a
Chord 1/2 ABOVE the note you want to resolve to. It's this "pull" that makes
it effective. It also allows you to use other chords besides dom7ths:
Dbmaj7/Cmaj7
Bb-7b5/A-7
And so on.
Extending that further, you can use it around the circle of 5ths. If you
substitute every other chord, then you have a chromatic descending line:
E-7|A-7|D-7|G7|Cmaj7|| becomes
E-7|Eb-7|D-7|Db7|Cmaj7||
OR
Bb7|A-7|Ab7|G7/Db7/|Cmaj7
The qualities are variable. The root movement is what's important.
As a bass player you can "force" these in wherever you want, especially
during solos. A great way to play chord extensions is to take say, your
vanilla dom 7th lick and play it a TT away.
The only thing you have to watch out for is chord voicing. If the chord
player has a heavy hand, plays lots of 5ths, or has an "old school" approach
to harmony, it's more problematic. Just use your ears.
"Jonathan" <Jona...@JonathanChase.netNOSPAM> wrote in message
news:gbfc9...@enews4.newsguy.com...
rakmanenuff
> One great advantage of learning piano first, guitar second, and finally
> bass
Why not play all 3 at the same time then:
pTooner
Gerry
pTooner
Well, not exactly. What I was musing about is for instance; in the key
of C the usual chords are Cmaj, Dmin, Emin, FMaj, Gmaj/7, Amin, Bmin.
In the Key of Amin the chords are exactly the same as is the key
signature. In fact, most bands I've played with call all keys major
regardless. So far as I can tell, the only difference is how common the
chords are as in Cmaj the C, F, and G7 are the most common. In Amin the
Am, Dm and Em are probably the most common but I'm not certain of this
latter. That's the only value I can see in knowing anything at all
about the relative minors. And, that's why I was asking. There must be
some good reason to be aware of them, but I don't see it. Of course, a
few hundred years ago when the scales were tempered differently key was
much more important but that's another story.
Gerry
RichL
Hell, I can't even walk and chew gum at the same time!
pTooner
with reading barre chords is that I'm usually too far away to be sure
what fret they are baring and I hadn't thought through the concept that
the same chords are going to be common. IOW, if I know the key there
aren't that many possibilities or at least likelihoods. Oh, and many
country and blue grass pickers never play the V chord anyway except in
the dominant 7th. On the rare occasions that the play a Vmaj they
usually transition to the V7 chord. Lastly, on the movable F, over the
years I developed the habit that I play the shape you mention on the
first beat because I can get there quickly and then transition to the
full barre E shape on the second beat assuming I'm staying there that
long. Since I'm generally a finger picker I may need all 6 strings for
the pattern. Anyway, again, thanks for the explanation it helped a lot.
Gerry
pTooner
and lead with one hand and harmony with the other and it sounds a hell
of a lot better. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TA9qlWyk-7Q In this
one http://www.break.com/index/amazing-young-organ-player-rocks-out.html
the organist is using what we call a coupler which allows her to play
the organ keyboard with the pedal keyboard. Watch in a fairly early
section and you'll see her playing the organ sound rhythm chords on the
pedal board. In this last one
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7RK9SElBfJo&feature=related you can't
really see her feet but you can hear them.
Gerry
js
Like I said, the chords used in that key are based on the key signature.
However ALL keys follow the exact same chord pattern, which is (in major)
I ii iii IV V(7) vi viidim I
The number stands for any note in a key ie in C, I=C ii=Dmin, iii=Emin etc.
(Don't worry about the "dim"; you won't use it much.)
The V or V7 (dominant 7th) can be used interchangably. you're just adding
another note (the 7th) to the chord. However, it's not a "major 7th" (G B D
F#), but a dominant 7th (G B D F), OR a "major chord" (G B D). Big
difference.
When you create a chord progression, you're usually aiming to "resolve" to
the I chord of that key. That's a big clue as to what key you're in, even if
you dont start on the one. For example:
C:
C| F | G | C = I IV V I in C. perhaps the most common progression ever
G:
Amin | D7 | G = ii V I in G. Even though it doesn't start on G, the V-I
makes an obvious resolution. This is clled a "cadence"
D:
D | Bmin | G | A :|| = I vi IV V in D. Classic 50's progression. The V-I
cadence "wraps around" so that it resolves to the first chord each time.
Still with me?
So what about minor and how do you tell key from chord?
Well if I take the major chords and start from the 6th note I get the minor
scale progression:
So C major:
C Dmin Emin F G Amin Bdin C becomes
Aminor:
Amin Bdim C Dmin Emin F G Amin
So now, my chord progressions with "resolve" to A min instead of C maj. It's
that simple.
There's one problem though. In order to make the minor sound like a "key"
and not just "Cmajor starting on A", we need to cheat a bit.
The most common trick is to change the v chord (Emin in this case) to a
dominant 7th (E or E7). To do this, you raise the 3rd of the chrd 1/2 step.
Now you have
Amin Bdim C D E(7) F G Amin
So, If i want to know if progression is in a minor key, or just using minor
chords, I can listen for that cadence:
Am | Dm | E | Am - definitely the key of Am. V-I cadence.
F | E | Am| Am| - In Am, even though it doesn't start there V-I cadence
C| F| G | C | Am | Am | Am | G| - typical bluegrass progression. NO cadence
to the Am. It's a long minor CHORD passage in the KEY of C
I hope I'm in the balpark this tme.
"pTooner" <gedd...@bellsouth.net> wrote in message
news:MFMCk.33798$IB6....@bignews8.bellsouth.net...
pTooner
Yep, actually I'm familiar with all that. However I think I can
paraphrase the above to something like "The difference between Cmaj key
and Am key is whether the song resolves to C or Am". Right?? I can see
how that might be useful in guessing which chords I'm more likely to be
using. I also hadn't thought about the fact that the V chord which
should be the v chord is commonly changed to the V7 in minor keys.
Since that would be III7 in the relative major it would be uncommon there.
js
points the way to the key, and the key sig.
"pTooner" <gedd...@bellsouth.net> wrote in message
news:poQCk.33875$IB6....@bignews8.bellsouth.net...
Jonathan
>
> The qualities are variable. The root movement is what's important.
>
> As a bass player you can "force" these in wherever you want, especially
> during solos. A great way to play chord extensions is to take say, your
> vanilla dom 7th lick and play it a TT away.
>
> The only thing you have to watch out for is chord voicing. If the chord
> player has a heavy hand, plays lots of 5ths, or has an "old school"
> approach
> to harmony, it's more problematic. Just use your ears.
>
Thanks, that is very helpful. I understand the concept of the TT sub
(shifting the root of a dom chord over a tritone) but never got deeper than
that.
How do you apply this when you are playing over a straight jazz blues,
is there a "standard" place to start making substitutions? I'm going to
guess that I'll get dirty looks if I start jumping around at random at my
next gig.
-Jonathan
Neil N
wrote:
> "js" <noth...@nothing.com> wrote in messagenews:gbfdmo$lcn$1...@aioe.org...
Of course there is no formula, but If you want to "sneak your licks in
like a thief in the night" ( I love that) First start off just using
the sub on the last beat or two of the bar you 're subbing in. EG :
For II V ! in C, Dm7/// G7/// C/// , use Dm7/// G7/ Db7/ C////
If you have to think scalar, Lydian b7 or the altered will get you
going.
If it's a "straight" jazz blues, first get everyone happy and comfy
with a I VI II V turn, and then start experimenting with the TT sub's
over that. ( I bIII II bII ) for example.
Neil N
>
> Yep, actually I'm familiar with all that. However I think I can
> paraphrase the above to something like "The difference between Cmaj key
> and Am key is whether the song resolves to C or Am". Right?? I can see
> how that might be useful in guessing which chords I'm more likely to be
> using. I also hadn't thought about the fact that the V chord which
> should be the v chord is commonly changed to the V7 in minor keys.
> Since that would be III7 in the relative major it would be uncommon there.
>
Yes, it really comes to what it sounds like. The ambiguity of minor
cadences is why the dominant 7th V chord was created.
Food for thought : An in depth study of the harmony of melodic and
harmonic minor scales yields very tasty fruit...
As for III7 in major keys, it's actually fairly common. And surprise,
surprise it's usually a temporary tonicization of the VI chord. Elton
John use it a lot, "Daniel" comes to mind immediately for me.
Gary Rosen
"js" <not...@nothing.com> wrote in message news:gbfdmo$lcn$1...@aioe.org...
> Just use your ears.
Say wha? We want all the rules AHEAD of time!
(In all seriousness, John, thanks for posting all this, it
is very valuable.)
- Gary Rosen
js
"Neil N" <dalto...@rogers.com> wrote in message
news:5438a03e-9ee1-4ae0...@f36g2000hsa.googlegroups.com...
Neil N
> "All Of Me" for me, or any tune from the 20's/30s
>