(Poll) Gene Simmons or Carol Kaye?
plaster...@hotmail.com
the bass guitar: Gene Simmons or Carol Kaye.
Thanks in advance.
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Bob Gollihur
<75liu0$2fo$1...@nnrp1.dejanews.com>...
>I would like to know (in your opinion) who has had a greater overall impact
on
>the bass guitar: Gene Simmons or Carol Kaye.
That's funny.
You weren't really being serious, were you?
--
Bob
eclectic bass - http://www.gollihur.com/bass.html
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(remove DELETE from email address to reply)
Galadriel
Carol, of course.
cleve
plaster...@hotmail.com wrote in message
<75liu0$2fo$1...@nnrp1.dejanews.com>...
>I would like to know (in your opinion) who has had a greater overall impact
on
>the bass guitar: Gene Simmons or Carol Kaye.
>
Michele Hobbs
The only way for Gene to have a big impact on bass is to hit it harder...
-Michele
Harvey Gerst
>I would like to know (in your opinion) who has had a greater overall impact on
>the bass guitar: Gene Simmons or Carol Kaye.
Lemme make it simple for you: No Carol Kaye, no electric bass guitar.
Harvey Gerst
Indian Trail Recording Studio
http://ITRstudio.com/
Michael O'Leary
<0AE8DCAF99DFB665.B03BBB3B...@library-proxy.airnews.ne
t>...
No Gene Simmons, no butane-related tongue burns.
ply...@as.net
plaster...@hotmail.com wrote:
> I would like to know (in your opinion) who has had a greater overall impact on
> the bass guitar: Gene Simmons or Carol Kaye.
>
>
> -----------== Posted via Deja News, The Discussion Network ==----------
> http://www.dejanews.com/ Search, Read, Discuss, or Start Your Own
>
Is this a troll?
--
Pat Lyman
sonsonic
there is no one else....
I saw him once at the Electric Banana when he played with the New Originals...
Eric "stumpy" Joe was on drums.... it rocked!
:-)
Mark107
Nesmith? Tough one...
ScottH2958
>there is no one else....
>I saw him once at the Electric Banana when he played with the New
>Originals...
>Eric "stumpy" Joe was on drums.... it rocked!
But that whole free-form jazz odyssey thing kinda sucked........
++++++++++++
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Andrew Rogers
>I would like to know (in your opinion) who has had a greater overall impact on
>the bass guitar: Gene Simmons or Carol Kaye.
Carol Kaye ghosted for a lot of better-known bassists in the studio, but as
far as I know Gene Simmons wasn't one of them. Is this a troll?
Andrew
Brian E Running
important, of course, but I've got to say this about her -- she's also
overrated in her importance. There have been many articles written about
her tremendous influence on American pop music in the early '60's, and most
of them were interviews of her. She is one of the truly great, shameless
self-promoters in the business, from what I've read. She claims to have
single-handedly revolutionized the bass in pop music -- false. She has
claimed that she played on a lot of famous recordings on which she really
did not -- a lot of Motown hits, for instance. As I understand it, in
reality she played on a lot of Motown demos that were made on the west
coast, but the actual releases featured Jamerson, Babbitt, and the other
real Motown bassists. There's a book that's a compilation of bass-player
articles from Guitar Player magazine (or Bass Player, or some such
magazine), and there's a piece about Carol Kaye, of course. But in a lot
of the other interviews, other players talk about her and the outrageous
claims she's made over the years. She's a pretty good bass player, but
modesty is not among her other virtues.
Michael Riehle
In article <75liu0$2fo$1...@nnrp1.dejanews.com> on Mon, 21 Dec 1998 13:37:03 GMT plaster...@hotmail.com wrote:
: I would like to know (in your opinion) who has had a greater overall impact on
: the bass guitar: Gene Simmons or Carol Kaye.
I'd been playing bass for three years before I even knew who Gene
Whassname was. I learned a lot of my chops out of Carol Kaye books. It
probably would have been years before I'd have heard of him if my
brother weren't a KISS fan. After hearing him, I went back to the Carol
Kaye books. Nothin' new in what he was doing on bass.
--
--------------------------------------------------------
Michael Riehle Send mail to mcr at the mriehle.com
San Jose, CA domain.
http://www.mriehle.com
#include <std.disclaimer>
--------------------------------------------------------
Rich West
Quincy?
On Mon, 21 Dec 1998 13:37:03 GMT, plaster...@hotmail.com wrote:
>I would like to know (in your opinion) who has had a greater overall impact on
>the bass guitar: Gene Simmons or Carol Kaye.
>
Mark Bock
"Ask me about my vow of silence."
Dave
Rich West wrote:
> Who has had more impact on the world of science? Albert Einstein or Dr
> Quincy?
Or acting: Gene Simmons or Jean Simmons. Gene Simmons showed his raw acting ability
in that Kiss movie, and then later he played a terrorist (I think he found his
nitch there).
8^) Dave
Bill Morris
> She's a pretty good bass player, but
> modesty is not among her other virtues.
Or Gene's either for that matter!
RULysdexic
tongue most likely has changed the world of cunninglingus.
Did Gene Simmons post this ? Is Jaco the next target ??
Stay tuned !!
WarwickSix
I can't belive I (we) spent this much time on a crazy thread like this. Any one
who knows better will certinly admit that Gene Simmons had a far greater impact
on bass than Carol Kaye. Hell, when was the last time you heard a bass line
like "Detroit Rock City" and say Carol can play better than that?
Excuse me while I go bang my head against a wall some place
................................................................. cool, I feel
MUCH better, now where did I put my Prozac??
This reply was ment to be sarcastic as hell
RJoseph133
Kaye the BETTER bass player? Of course she is. But who knows her? I mean,
really, apart from us bass players and a few others "in the know" who knows or
cares who Carol Kaye is? The same thing applies to a question like "Who had
more effect on bass: James Jamerson or Paul McCartney?" While Mr. McCartney is
certainly better at his art than Mr. Simmons, you just might be getting the
point here.....If you asked anyone on the street who Paul McCartney was, 99% of
the great unwashed would instantly know. The same applies to Gene Simmons. If
you asked the same thing about Carol Kaye or James Jamerson, the same crowd
wouldn't have a clue. Hell, I have been playing semi-professionally for almost
20 years now, and I barely have a clue about who she is! Nor do I really give a
flip about what studio musician played on whichever bland radio fodder
seventies song happens to have a great bass line, either. I just want to hear a
great song.
In a roundabout way, Gene Simmons has had a much, much greater effect on the
word "bass" than Carol Kaye. Sad but true, kiddies.
Is it right? No. But remember, we live in a world where Clinton still has a 75%
approval rating.
Dan Hildebrand
I was just wondering:
Which is the sweeter fruit; a spark plug or a rabbit?
Michael Riehle wrote:
>
> Stupid Question of the week award goes to:
>
> In article <75liu0$2fo$1...@nnrp1.dejanews.com> on Mon, 21 Dec 1998 13:37:03 GMT plaster...@hotmail.com wrote:
> : I would like to know (in your opinion) who has had a greater overall impact on
> : the bass guitar: Gene Simmons or Carol Kaye.
>
Galadriel
spends more effort "bringing up" younger bass players... I think that is a
good measure of a bass player. I wouldn't be sure Geno is interested in
mentoring...
cleve
Mark Bock wrote in message <367f60d8.14469288@news>...
>So..are we talking influence on playing or instrument sales?
>
>
>On Tue, 22 Dec 1998 08:46:08 GMT,
>DELETE_FOR_REP...@yahoo.com (Rich West) wrote:
>
>>Who has had more impact on the world of science? Albert Einstein or Dr
>>Quincy?
>>
>>On Mon, 21 Dec 1998 13:37:03 GMT, plaster...@hotmail.com wrote:
>>
>>>I would like to know (in your opinion) who has had a greater overall
impact on
>>>the bass guitar: Gene Simmons or Carol Kaye.
>>>
Brian M. Gordon
>
> Harvey Gerst wrote in message
> <0AE8DCAF99DFB665.B03BBB3B...@library-proxy.airnews.ne
> t>...
> >
> >>I would like to know (in your opinion) who has had a greater overall
> impact on
> >>the bass guitar: Gene Simmons or Carol Kaye.
> >
> >
> >Harvey Gerst
> >Indian Trail Recording Studio
> >http://ITRstudio.com/
>
> No Gene Simmons, no butane-related tongue burns.
Gene Simmons - The man who opened my mind to the 20-foot flame.
Brian
--
"THE MORE SERIOUSLY YOU TAKE YOURSELF AND OTHERS, THE MORE SERIOUSLY
YOU WILL BE OFFENDED AND DISGUSTED" - Charlie Dirksen
ION VEIN - Melodic Progressive Metal - http://www.ionvein.com
Taihen1
>
>Everybody here seems to be missing the point of the original post. Is carol
>Kaye the BETTER bass player?
Sorry, but YOU missed it.
Go read the original post again ... the key word is "impact"
Don "Mango" Pancoe
RJoseph133 wrote:
<snip>
>In a roundabout way, Gene Simmons has had a much, much greater effect on
the
>word "bass" than Carol Kaye. Sad but true, kiddies.
You seem to equate "being recognized by the man-in-the-street" with "having
an impact on the art of bass playing." Sure, many, many people know that
Gene Simmons is the bass player for Kiss, but how many of them actually
aspire to play bass?
And I'm sure many people picked up the bass because they saw Gene Simmons
when they were growing up. But how many of those that went beyond the level
of Kiss cover bands would still count Gene as their biggest influence?
Whether or not you know of Carol Kaye by name and/or face; assuming you've
absorbed a large part of your bass playing knowledge by hearing the bass
parts to songs over the course of your daily life, it follows that many more
of those parts were either played by Carol Kaye, or at least played by
people influenced by Carol Kaye (and Joe Osborn, Monk Montgomery, James
Jamerson, etc.,) than by Gene Simmons.
>Is it right? No. But remember, we live in a world where Clinton still has a
75%
>approval rating.
I don't see where this has anything to do with the price of tea in China...
-- Mango --
Gazuga
>Whassname was. I learned a lot of my chops out of Carol Kaye books. It
>probably would have been years before I'd have heard of him if my
>brother weren't a KISS fan. After hearing him, I went back to the Carol
>Kaye books. Nothin' new in what he was doing on bass.
You know, there will probably be some disgust over this, but I'm a relatively
new bassist and I have no idea who this Carol Kaye is. What did she play that I
can get my hands on? And would it be of any interest to someone--such as
myself--whose favorite bassits are people like Jack Bruce and John Entwhistle?
Mike Schorsch
Sonic VI
new >bassist and I have no idea who this Carol >Kaye is. What did she play that
I can get my >hands on? And would it be of any interest to >someone--such as
myself--whose favorite >bassits are people like Jack Bruce and John
>Entwhistle?
Check out her web site www.carolkaye.com and you can find out just how many
famous recordings you've heard in which you were hearing her play. You might
very be surprised.
Daniel.
dj90...@my-dejanews.com
"Galadriel" <jazz...@pacbell.net> wrote:
> hey, one way to get perspective on this is to ask yourself which one of them
> spends more effort "bringing up" younger bass players... I think that is a
> good measure of a bass player. I wouldn't be sure Geno is interested in
> mentoring...
>
> cleve
> Mark Bock wrote in message <367f60d8.14469288@news>...
> >So..are we talking influence on playing or instrument sales?
> >
> >
> >On Tue, 22 Dec 1998 08:46:08 GMT,
> >DELETE_FOR_REP...@yahoo.com (Rich West) wrote:
> >
> >>Who has had more impact on the world of science? Albert Einstein or Dr
> >>Quincy?
> >>
> >>
> >>>I would like to know (in your opinion) who has had a greater overall
> impact on
> >>>the bass guitar: Gene Simmons or Carol Kaye.
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>-----------== Posted via Deja News, The Discussion Network ==----------
> >>>http://www.dejanews.com/ Search, Read, Discuss, or Start Your Own
> >>
> >
> >"Ask me about my vow of silence."
>
I gotta go with C.K. but I personally didn't start playing because of the
impact she made....I wanted to blow up a stage and play loud and jump around
like a nut!
-Billybob
Mr Bassman
WarwickSix wrote in message
<19981222120816...@ng-fr1.aol.com>...
Bucket
"having
> an impact on the art of bass playing." Sure, many, many people know that
> Gene Simmons is the bass player for Kiss, but how many of them actually
> aspire to play bass?
>
> And I'm sure many people picked up the bass because they saw Gene Simmons
> when they were growing up. But how many of those that went beyond the
level
> of Kiss cover bands would still count Gene as their biggest influence?
>
Metallica bassist) has said that Gene was his inspiration to pick up a
bass... I don't think either of those two are Kiss cover bands... :)
Bucket
RJoseph133
>Sorry, but YOU missed it.
>Go read the original post again ... the key word is "impact"
>
Like I said in the remainder of my post? Glad you read more than one sentence.
RJoseph133
>Gene Simmons is the bass player for Kiss, but how many of them actually
>aspire to play bass?
Probably many more than were inspired by Carol Kaye. Once again, I'm not
denying her talents as a bass player, but as far as kids wanting to play a bass
or even knowing what a bass is, Geno wins the prize for influence here.
>But how many of those that went beyond the level
>of Kiss cover bands would still count Gene as their biggest influence?
>
Probably, once again, more than Carol Kaye.
Scott Barrett
>
>You know, there will probably be some disgust over this, but I'm a
relatively
>new bassist and I have no idea who this Carol Kaye is. What did she play
that I
>can get my hands on? And would it be of any interest to someone--such as
>myself--whose favorite bassits are people like Jack Bruce and John
Entwhistle?
>
>Mike Schorsch
I've known about Gene and Kiss since I was a kid, and Carol for only 2
months...Carol is WAAAAAYYYYY more important to bass playing then Gene will
ever be. That flame thing was cool though.....
Scott Barrett
Michael Nelson
>
>I've known about Gene and Kiss since I was a kid, and Carol for only 2
>months...Carol is WAAAAAYYYYY more important to bass playing then Gene will
>ever be. That flame thing was cool though.....
Hey, Carol used to do that all the time in the studios when recording for
the Beach Boys. Haven't you seen the scorch marks on her old PBass?
Michael
--
"Life is not a dress rehearsal" -- unknown
Michael Nelson San Francisco, CA nel...@imat.com
j. martin
<0AE8DCAF99DFB665.B03BBB3B...@library-proxy.airnews.net>,
har...@ITRstudio.com (Harvey Gerst) wrote:
> Lemme make it simple for you: No Carol Kaye, no electric bass guitar.
That's funny. I thouht this guy named Leo came up with the idea. What's
his last name? I just can't place it. Oh yeah: Fender!
Wheat
------------------------------------------------------------------------
wheatbread(@)geocities(.)com | _Wheat's BassBook_
comp.uark.edu/~jemartin/bassbook.html | A Resource for Electric Bassists
------------------------------------------------------------------------
j. martin
> Is this a troll?
Aren't all of the roll calls and polls trolls? They're definately one of
the more anoying features of these groups.
Does Gene play with his fingers or a pick?
j. martin
> hey, one way to get perspective on this is to ask yourself which one of them
> spends more effort "bringing up" younger bass players... I think that is a
> good measure of a bass player. I wouldn't be sure Geno is interested in
> mentoring...
Actually, that would be a good measure of a teacher, not necessarily a
good measure of a bass player. I'm a good bass instructor. That doesn't
mean I'm a good bass player (I am a good bass player, BTW, but that's a
side issue). :)
Don "Mango" Pancoe
I wrote:
>Sure, many, many people know that
>Gene Simmons is the bass player for Kiss, but how many of them actually
>aspire to play bass?
Then RJoseph133 wrote:
>Probably many more than were inspired by Carol Kaye. Once again, I'm not
>denying her talents as a bass player, but as far as kids wanting to play a
bass
>or even knowing what a bass is, Geno wins the prize for influence here.
Yes, I will definitely grant that Gene Simmons probably inspired more people
to pick up the bass than did Carol Kaye. However, I still retain my
*opinion* that, at least in styles of music to which I gravitate, more of
the bass players' vernacular, the "vocabulary" if you will, was established
by Carol Kaye and her peers than by Gene Simmons and his peers.
Don't get me wrong, I love Kiss, Metallica, Pantera, etc., but across *all*
musical styles, especially styles you are more likely to play as a working
bass player, I still think Carl had more influence than Gene.
-- Mango --
William Kargel
I see that this is turning into quite a controversy!
Comparing Carol Kaye to Gene Simmons is like trying to compare
apples and oranges. OK, both are bass players (apples and oranges are
both fruit) but they are different kinds.
I think initially more people wanted to pick up the bass because of
Gene...not because of his technique as much as everything else,
especially the "image" he portrayed. I mean, this guy was/is in Kiss!
The Kabuki Bad Boys of Rock! Gene made the bass guitar a "cool"
instrument to play to millions of kids! Before that, everybody wanted
to be a guitar-wanker or skins-basher to get the girls. Gene proved you
didn't have to be either to achieve that. That's right...more kids pick
up an instrument (like guitar) to get girls. Plain and simple. And
most of them never get anywhere. The ones who get beyond that achieve
something. Seriously...the Geddy Lees and Chris Squires of the world
are revered by *musicians* more than the average kid...they have to grow
into appreciating that kind of playing for the sake of it. I know I did
when learning music...first piano/keyboard lessons and later picking up
the bass.
Now to Carol Kaye's credit...I think she inspired more bass players
who were already playing than inspiring kids to pick up the instrument.
Besides, she was a nameless, faceless session woman to the general
public...for all we knew it was a guy playing the bass. In fact, I'm
pretty sure most people initially didn't realize that the Beach Boys
used session players in the studio so heavily. It has only been in more
recent times that her contributions to music have been revealed and
properly appreciated.
There aren't many women bass-players in rock. Carol can most
definately be an inspiration to women who want to learn bass.
Well, that's my $.02 worth!
Happy Holidays!
William Kargel
Atlanta, GA
USA
Random Dan
writing. He has written hit songs that have gone down in history. + his band
kicks.
David Hartley
one!
MikeyJake
And Gene is sniggering with 60 million records sold...
>Subject: Re: (Poll) Gene Simmons or Carol Kaye?
>From: David Hartley <dh...@ihug.co.nz>
>Date: Fri, 25 Dec 1998 13:27:19 +1300
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>Subject: Re: (Poll) Gene Simmons or Carol Kaye?
>Date: Fri, 25 Dec 1998 13:27:19 +1300
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**The Only True Wisdom is Knowing that You Know Nothing**
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MikeyJake
>Not about money Pal.... Their music is IMHO banal, But little kids like
>it!
Who said anything about money? There have been tons of kiss fans over the
years, and thats why they sold that many records. I didn't notice too many
minors when they sold out Madison Square Garden a few nights in a row last
year. Yeah, I*Y*HO. But you are obviously in the minority on this one.... and
simply wrong about the songwriting... there are few tunes in the permanent
songbook of rock and roll more revered than "RnR All Nite", and tons of other
stuff have become bar band staples.
Sure, lots of kids, but tons of adults too.... and thats over almost 30
years....
And they've been cited by groups from Soundgarden to Garth Brooks as their
BIGGEST influence. Few bans had a better roster of artist on their tribute
album; when Steve Wonders shows up for a metal band tribute, its time to pay
attention.
So who SHOULD we be praying to, oh master of good taste?
mgj
In article <3683EEC9...@ihug.co.nz>, David Hartley <dh...@ihug.co.nz>
writes:
>
>MikeyJake wrote:
>
>> And Gene is sniggering with 60 million records sold...
>>
>> >Subject: Re: (Poll) Gene Simmons or Carol Kaye?
>> >From: David Hartley <dh...@ihug.co.nz>
>> >Date: Fri, 25 Dec 1998 13:27:19 +1300
>> >
>> >Glad to see that sarcasm is alive and kicking. I'm quietly sniggering at
>> >this
>> >one!
>> >
>> >Random Dan wrote:
>> >
>> >> You have to go w/ Gene Simmons. Who has decent bass playing w/ good
>song
>> >> writing. He has written hit songs that have gone down in history. +
>his
>> >band
>> >> kicks.
David Hartley
MikeyJake wrote:
> And Gene is sniggering with 60 million records sold...
>
> >Subject: Re: (Poll) Gene Simmons or Carol Kaye?
> >From: David Hartley <dh...@ihug.co.nz>
> >Date: Fri, 25 Dec 1998 13:27:19 +1300
> >
> >Glad to see that sarcasm is alive and kicking. I'm quietly sniggering at
> >this
> >one!
> >
> >Random Dan wrote:
> >
> >> You have to go w/ Gene Simmons. Who has decent bass playing w/ good song
> >> writing. He has written hit songs that have gone down in history. + his
> >band
> >> kicks.
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > ------------------- Headers --------------------
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> >From: David Hartley <dh...@ihug.co.nz>
> >Newsgroups: alt.guitar.bass
> >Subject: Re: (Poll) Gene Simmons or Carol Kaye?
> >Date: Fri, 25 Dec 1998 13:27:19 +1300
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>
hoorweg
bass than either of them...then theres jaco....
MikeyJake wrote:
> >Not about money Pal.... Their music is IMHO banal, But little
> kids like
> >it!
>
> >MikeyJake wrote:
> >
> >> And Gene is sniggering with 60 million records sold...
> >>
> >> >Subject: Re: (Poll) Gene Simmons or Carol Kaye?
> >> >From: David Hartley <dh...@ihug.co.nz>
> >> >Date: Fri, 25 Dec 1998 13:27:19 +1300
> >> >
> >> >Glad to see that sarcasm is alive and kicking. I'm quietly
> sniggering at
> >> >this
> >> >one!
> >> >
> >> >Random Dan wrote:
> >> >
> >> >> You have to go w/ Gene Simmons. Who has decent bass playing w/
> good
> >song
> >> >> writing. He has written hit songs that have gone down in
> history. +
> >his
> >> >band
> >> >> kicks.
>
Taihen1
hoorweg wrote:
>I think we ought to be praying to james jamerson, cos he did more for
>bass than either of them...then theres jaco....
well said, hoorweg
*Jamerson played his ass off!
*Jaco played his ass off and shot his mouth off.
*Carol just shoots her mouth off.
...and while her playing was "good" it wasn't in the same league as these other
two innovators.
and while Gene Simmons is less of a musician than all of them, he's a great
showman, and has had the biggest impact on rock music.
David Kenderian
David Kenderian
David Hartley
abundance. I enjoy a lot of Ska music also. Listen to some of the bass
players playing in this genre
To dress up as Kiss do and then ask me to take them seriously is a big ask.
I want to rock and roll all night and party every day? Revered? Bar band
staples?
No further questions, your honour!
hoorweg wrote:
> I think we ought to be praying to james jamerson, cos he did more for
> bass than either of them...then theres jaco....
>
Brian Rost
In article <75mhk1$o...@newsops.execpc.com>, "Brian wrote:
>That's pretty funny -- I assume that's a joke. Carol Kaye was more
>important, of course, but I've got to say this about her -- she's also
>overrated in her importance.
It's hard to overrate a pioneer.
All you have to do is go listen to music prior to her, Joe Osborne and James
Jamerson coming on the scene and you can see what those three players
contributed.
C'mon, tell me who was MORE important? Who towers over her (seeing as how she's
overrated and all)?
Brian
"The older you live the less you're dead"
PhishyBass
>Jamerson
Two infitely superior players. Listen to the 5th Dimensions Let the Sunshine,
that is the greatest funkiest bass part that existed before the 70's funk
revolution. And Jamerson needs no introduction, but how many of Carol Kayes
bass lines are nearly as memorable or well crafted as those two? ZIlch.
PFrei900
reader, with a jazz background, unlike Joe Osborn (who is also a great favorite
of mine), she was called for a broader variety of dates. However, if you think
she wasn't funky, check out the Ray Charles dates she did, for instance.
Mark107
it out.....
How many of you TODAY could have played that?
Tom Lanik
are generations apart and are comming from 2 opposite directions. Why
even try to compare them?
Thanks,
Tom Lanik,
Chicago
Nick Castrellon
So I thought I would just mosey on over to her hompeage at www.carolkaye.com
I listened to a couple of sound clips, and wow, she is really good. Is this
person one of the unknowns
in the world of bass playing?? Hhmm.... mabye, cause I've never heard of her.
But, I'm gonna start listening
to more of her.
Now, I'm sure that we've all heard about Gene Simmons. I'm not sure what kind of
an impact this man has
had on the bass, but you gotta give him his credit. His basslines fit KISS' songs
like a glove. He doesn't have
all that flash like Marcus Miller or Jaco or Nathan East, but he is good as a rock
bassist. Someone in this thread pointed out his line in "Detroit Rock City".
It's one of the coolest lines I think he's done. "Sure Know Somethin" also has a
great bassline. Sadly though, in the 80's, he didn't really craft his lines as
well as he did during the 70's. Lot's of that stuff was just pedaling single
notes over and over. Oh well.
This Carol Kaye chick is good though, I'm gonna check more of her stuff out.
Laterz.
plaster...@hotmail.com wrote:
> I would like to know (in your opinion) who has had a greater overall impact on
> the bass guitar: Gene Simmons or Carol Kaye.
>
> Thanks in advance.
>
> -----------== Posted via Deja News, The Discussion Network ==----------
> http://www.dejanews.com/ Search, Read, Discuss, or Start Your Own
PhishyBass
>I listened to a couple of sound clips, and wow, she is really good.
I really fail to see how Carol Kaye is anything more than an average bassist
with an above average ego.
Harvey Gerst
Well, let's see. Carol pioneered the use of the Fender bass in the
music industry, making it an accepted instrument; she played on more
hit records than almost anybody else during the early years of rock;
she helped shape the sound of electric bass on record, and oh yeah,
she was a girl at the time. I guess she was average, even back then.
Of course, with only her playing the electric bass back then, she WAS
the average!!!
Harvey Gerst
Indian Trail Recording Studio
http://ITRstudio.com/
Mark107
with an above average ego. >>
You really think that? If the average bassist played like that, it would be a
fine world indeed. Now if we could just get the drummers to hold a
tempo.......
Harvey Gerst
You've never had the pleasure of having Earl Palmer, Hal Blaine, Buddy
Miles, or Jeff Pocaro behind you.
swedbass
hundreds of albums if you are merely an "average" bass player. Carol had an
innovative style and good groove and was indeed one of the pioneers that
paved the way for me and jerks like you with a below average attitude.
True, the requirements of today's music business are different - maybe a
P-bass with flatwounds and 1/2" action played with a pick is every producers
idea of ideal bass tone - but back then that was THE sound and it is still
required from time to time.
--
David Hughes
Swedbass Productions
(has nothing to do with fish, but low frequencies)
Mark107 wrote in message <19981231212954...@ng42.aol.com>...
Brian Rost
In article <19981231171332...@ng51.aol.com>, phish...@aol.com
wrote:
>I really fail to see how Carol Kaye is anything more than an average bassist
>with an above average ego.
It's always hard to listen to pioneers thirty years later when other musicians
have absorbed their ideas and moved on.
Besides, before she took up bass, Kaye was a bebop jazz guitarist. She's
recorded very little jazz bass over the years but I would bet that she could
blow away almost any player in this newsgroup without breaking a sweat.
As far as ego: "it aint bragging if you can back it up". She has more than
enough credits to do so, even if you throw away the Motown claims.
GeeTee
Brian Rost wrote in message
<19990101152606...@ngol01.aol.com>...
And nobody has even mentioned her abilities on acoustic bass! Along with Joe
Osborn, Carol Kaye laid the foundations of what electric bass playing has
become today. The only thing is, it takes us 'old hands' to appreciate it!
George Troupe
Cape Town
South Africa.
PhishyBass
>musicians
>have absorbed their ideas and moved on.
>
I appreciate Jamerson and Phil Lesh and Ron Carter and tons of bassists from
that era. But Carol Kaye is an insanely overated bassist who played on simple
pop songs.
>She's
>recorded very little jazz bass over the years but I would bet that she could
>blow away almost any player in this newsgroup without breaking a sweat.
I think not. I never heard her do anything more than 12 bar blues-type
motions. I think she's getting pioneer status because of quanity and not
quality. And anyone who plays guitar and then picks up a bass by necessity is
not truly a bassist at heart.
PFrei900
bar blues and "simple pop songs", you vastly under-rate the demands of the L.A.
studio scene, then and now. You might as well say that all your Phil Lesh
could do was play endlessly meandering drug and alcohol soaked jams.
Mark107
not truly a bassist at heart.>>
And what is that, may I ask? If you pick up a bass, and play great stuff,
that's all there is to it. What other instruments you play has nothing to do
with it. I suppose you don't think much of Steve Winwood's playing on the
whole "John Barleycorn" (Traffic) album, because he also play organ, piano, and
guitar on it?
Dumb comment...
Mark107
True about studio work, it's not as easy as it seems to an outsider.
As far as Phil Lesh goes, he is a great player, and vastly under appreciated,
mostly because of how the world is divided up into "pro-Dead" and "anti-Dead"
camps. Many Dead heads love Phil, because, well, they're Dead heads. And the
"anti" camp won't give the guy the time of day. THAT SAID, I for one (not a
Dead head, btw), think he is a truly great player. If you think he is
"meandering", notice how he plays the same parts on every verse and chorus.
Think about how he came up with those parts. Then listen to the improve
sections with fresh ears, based on his "parts". There is a detail and
compositional complexity there that is simply over most people's head. He was
a music composition major in college, and was asked to join the band, even
though he didn't play bass at the time. Garcia knew the guy was a genius.
Check out "Europe '72" (a live album), and tell me you're not blown away by
this guy!
off soapbox now...
-Mark Dann
Mark107
bassist
>with an above average ego. >>
>
>fine world indeed. Now if we could just get the drummers to hold a
>tempo.......
You've never had the pleasure of having Earl Palmer, Hal Blaine, Buddy
Miles, or Jeff Pocaro behind you.>>
What I meant was getting average level of drummers up to the level where solid
tempos are the rule, not the exception. I have played with guys who are great,
and hold tempos. But I have also played with many drummers who really should
not be subjecting themselves on other musicians, or the public for that matter.
-Mark Dann
Mark107
P-bass with flatwounds and 1/2" action played with a pick is every producers
idea of ideal bass tone - but back then that was THE sound and it is still
required from time to time.>>
A P-bass with flats and a pick records really beatifully, even in 1999. Often
better than some "modern" bass played by a "modern" bass player.
PhishyBass
>and
>guitar on it?
>
Sure I would, if I found someone who played other guitar and bass and actually
played the lead on the bass occasionally, instead of playing minimalist bass.
What I'm tired of is guitarists who say they play bass and all this means is
they play the root note under the guitar part and say, "Hey i play bass".
Mark107
actually
played the lead on the bass occasionally, instead of playing minimalist bass.
What I'm tired of is guitarists who say they play bass and all this means is
they play the root note under the guitar part and say, "Hey i play bass".>>
That is a different discussion. That is about good vs. bad bass playing.
There are many people who only play bass, but don't play very well. There are
others who play several instuments, who are really good bass players. Dare I
say it, some of them are do not play bass as their primary instrument. It's
really about whether someone is a good musician or not. Not about what other
instruments they may or may not play. Certainly, saying that a guitar player
is not a good bass player BECAUSE he/she is a guitar player, is misguided.
-Mark Dann
Chris Herbst
hear "He's not the best, but he's great at what he does." What the hell does that
mean? Steve Morse, Steve Vai, John Petrucci, they could all blow away Ace, even beat
him at his own game. Now this special treatment carries over to Gene? What impact
has he had on music, not makeup, music. Kiss came from the era of bands like Rush,
The Dregs, Led Zep, and all they accomplished was simple little songs like "Rock and
Roll all Night," good for nothing but background music at a party while getting
stoned. They were a simple rock band with an elaborate, and silly, stage show.
Nothing more.
Sonic VI
motions. I think she's getting pioneer status because of quanity and not
quality.
Go try and play along to the Beach Boys' Pet Sounds and all the other Beach
Boys stuff she played on even with music in front of you and tell me that
that's simple 12 bar blues type lines. Sure Brian Wilson wrote all of those
parts but she played them beautifully.
Daniel.
MikeyJake
>Go try and play along to the Beach Boys' Pet Sounds and all the other Beach
>Boys stuff she played on even with music in front of you and tell me that
>that's simple 12 bar blues type lines. Sure Brian Wilson wrote all of those
>parts but she played them beautifully.
>
>Daniel.
I don't think playing parts someone else wrote out for you (beyond chords, I'm
talking) can qualify someone as a truly great bass player....
mgj
Keith
> I really fail to see how Carol Kaye is anything more than an average
> bassist with an above average ego.
Wow, that's pretty personal.
I just haven't seen Carol Kaye drool blood from her mouth at shows. ;)
K
Bruce Starr
Real mature of you.
MikeyJake wrote:
> >>I don't think playing parts someone else wrote out for you (beyond chords,
> >I'm
> >>talking) can qualify someone as a truly great bass player....
> >>mgj
> >>
> >>**The Only True Wisdom is Knowing that You Know Nothing**
> >
> >In this case, your signature line shows me that you are not yet "truly
> >wise".
> >
> >Harvey Gerst
>
> So sue me for having an opinion, asswipe.
PFrei900
for session players you might change your mind.
Harvey Gerst
>>Go try and play along to the Beach Boys' Pet Sounds and all the other Beach
>>Boys stuff she played on even with music in front of you and tell me that
>>that's simple 12 bar blues type lines. Sure Brian Wilson wrote all of those
>>parts but she played them beautifully.
>>Daniel.
>
>I don't think playing parts someone else wrote out for you (beyond chords, I'm
>talking) can qualify someone as a truly great bass player....
>mgj
>
>**The Only True Wisdom is Knowing that You Know Nothing**
In this case, your signature line shows me that you are not yet "truly
wise".
Harvey Gerst
MikeyJake
>>I don't think playing parts someone else wrote out for you (beyond chords,
>I'm
>>talking) can qualify someone as a truly great bass player....
>>mgj
>>
>>**The Only True Wisdom is Knowing that You Know Nothing**
>
>In this case, your signature line shows me that you are not yet "truly
>wise".
>
>Harvey Gerst
So sue me for having an opinion, asswipe.
mgj
**The Only True Wisdom is Knowing that You Know Nothing**
Harvey Gerst
>>>I don't think playing parts someone else wrote out for you (beyond chords,
>>I'm talking) can qualify someone as a truly great bass player....
>>>mgj
>>>
>>>**The Only True Wisdom is Knowing that You Know Nothing**
>>In this case, your signature line shows me that you are not yet "truly
>>wise".
>>Harvey Gerst
>
>So sue me for having an opinion, asswipe.
There's a big difference between "having an opinion" and "having an
uninformed opinion", grasshopper.
Aaron Turner
: Besides, before she took up bass, Kaye was a bebop jazz guitarist. She's
: recorded very little jazz bass over the years but I would bet that she could
: blow away almost any player in this newsgroup without breaking a sweat.
She sent me some recordings of her in concert from a few years ago, and
she certainly has plenty of chops. Definitely not average
Aaron Turner
R. John Lye
> Now, I'm sure that we've all heard about Gene Simmons.
Heard of him? Yes. Actually heard his playing? No, I can't
say that I have; I don't think that I've ever had to listen
to a Kiss "song" (he says thankfully). I do know Carol Kaye's
work, though.
--
John Lye
e-mail to: rj...@Virginia.EDU
homepage: http://avery.med.virginia.edu/~rjl6n/homepage.htm
Brian Rost
>
> >I don't think playing parts someone else wrote out for you (beyond chords, I'm
> >talking) can qualify someone as a truly great bass player....
Go listen to Gary Karr before you say that...
The idea that to be creative you have to compose as well as perform is
pure bullshit.
--
Brian Rost
3Com Corp.
978-264-1550
br...@synnet.com
*********************************************************************
Playing the bass is like dancing the limbo: how low can you go?
*********************************************************************
MikeyJake
It wasn't a response... it was a swipe, plain and simple. Pure insult,
nothing else (reread it a few times below if you're not sure).
So, I'm just as immature as him for responding... fine. I just wanted to let
him know I didn't appreciate it. Why didn't you slam the asshole who first
posted the insult, if you are so concerned with maturity, oh policeman of the
net. Or do you enjoy hypcrisy?
I appreciated the other responses I get... I'm hear to hear other opinions as
well as to voice my own sometimes. I'm sorry if you don't enjoy my opinion,
but I'm still entitled to it.
mgj
>O I see your have someone answers your post and all you can do is curse at
>him.
>Real mature of you.
>
>MikeyJake wrote:
>
>> >>I don't think playing parts someone else wrote out for you (beyond
>chords,
>> >I'm
>> >>talking) can qualify someone as a truly great bass player....
>> >>mgj
>> >>
>> >>**The Only True Wisdom is Knowing that You Know Nothing**
>> >
>> >In this case, your signature line shows me that you are not yet "truly
>> >wise".
>> >
>> >Harvey Gerst
>>
>> So sue me for having an opinion, asswipe.
>>
>> mgj
>>
>> **The Only True Wisdom is Knowing that You Know Nothing**
>> For those spam-bots that scan text here are some valid spammers' reply
>> addresses:
>> MAIL...@USA.NET
>> Am...@isit.com
>> Ar...@isit.com
>> Ri...@isit.com
>> Mich...@isit.com
>> Ro...@isit.com
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> ------------------- Headers --------------------
>
>Path:
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>From: Bruce Starr <Bass...@ix.netcom.com>
>Newsgroups: alt.guitar.bass
>Subject: Re: (Poll) Gene Simmons or Carol Kaye?
>Date: Sun, 03 Jan 1999 20:13:57 -0800
>Organization: ICGNetcom
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>
>
**The Only True Wisdom is Knowing that You Know Nothing**
MikeyJake
>
>> >I don't think playing parts someone else wrote out for you (beyond chords,
>I'm
>> >talking) can qualify someone as a truly great bass player....
>
>
>The idea that to be creative you have to compose as well as perform is
>pure bullshit.
You misunderstand.... I don't disagree.
I do have an appreciation for the art of the non-writing session player... I've
seen some phenomenal guys do great stuff in the studio in similar situations,
and I'm curious to hear mode anecdotes here.
I just think that (yes, IMHO IMHO IMHO IMHO) a great bass player should be able
to compose great parts, AS WELL AS play the parts of others. To me, being
great means nailing both, as well as being able to figure out when to stick
with whats written and whats not (mainly because in my bands, we usually don't
have pre-written parts for bass players... I can't consider anyone that can't
come up with a decent part themselves "great").
This is NOT saying that someone who plays pre-written parts phenomenally well
can't be a great player... its just that (IMHO IMHO IMHO) the performance of
pre-written parts alone isn't enough to qualify them as being great.... I would
need to listen to their non-pre-written stuff to make that overall judgement.
Does anyone want to explain to me how this is so very misinformed an opinion
and worthy of ridicule? Oh, I know... misinformed means you don't agree....
Harvey Gerst
>It wasn't a response... it was a swipe, plain and simple. Pure insult,
>nothing else (reread it a few times below if you're not sure).
MikeyJake is right, it was a swipe. I used his own sig quote against
him, because I felt he was making blanket statements against someone
he had not listened to seriously. Carol Kaye was a pioneer, just as
Leo Fender and Les Paul were pioneers. True wisdom comes from
realizing you don't know everything, but you should always be
learning. And sometimes, you may learn things from people who were
there at the time.
>So, I'm just as immature as him for responding... fine. I just wanted to let
>him know I didn't appreciate it. Why didn't you slam the asshole who first
>posted the insult, if you are so concerned with maturity, oh policeman of the
>net. Or do you enjoy hypcrisy?
It wasn't an insult; it was a small swipe, reminding you to take some
of your own advice before dissing someone of Carol's stature. If you
want to ignore my reminder, that's fine with me.
>I appreciated the other responses I get... I'm hear to hear other opinions as
>well as to voice my own sometimes. I'm sorry if you don't enjoy my opinion,
>but I'm still entitled to it.
It's not a question of enjoying your opinion, but rather a question of
repecting it. How much involvement with electric or upright bass have
you had? How long have you played? Do you understand what is being
played? And why? In short, exactly how much is your opinion worth?
Before Carol Kaye, if you played bass, you played upright bass in
studios and at gigs. Carol made the electric bass popular!! Her work
in the "wrecking crew" spans hundreds of songs as one of maybe the 3
top studio bassists during that period.
From the "it don't sound like a big deal to me" tone of your original
post, my bet is you've never done any serious major studio session
work in your life. But hey, that's just my opinion. :)
Harvey Gerst
>>> >I don't think playing parts someone else wrote out for you (beyond chords,
>>> >I'm talking) can qualify someone as a truly great bass player....
>>Go listen to Gary Karr before you say that...
>>The idea that to be creative you have to compose as well as perform is
>>pure bullshit.
>
>You misunderstand.... I don't disagree.
>
>I do have an appreciation for the art of the non-writing session player... I've
>seen some phenomenal guys do great stuff in the studio in similar situations,
>and I'm curious to hear mode anecdotes here.
>
>I just think that (yes, IMHO IMHO IMHO IMHO) a great bass player should be able
>to compose great parts, AS WELL AS play the parts of others. To me, being
>great means nailing both, as well as being able to figure out when to stick
>with whats written and whats not (mainly because in my bands, we usually don't
>have pre-written parts for bass players... I can't consider anyone that can't
>come up with a decent part themselves "great").
And Carol did both. Most good studio arrangers would leave room for
the great studio players to come up with their own ideas. Frank
Sinatra used Glen Campbell on a lot of his sessions, even though Glen
couldn't read a note!! Carol frequently came up with better parts.
>This is NOT saying that someone who plays pre-written parts phenomenally well
>can't be a great player... its just that (IMHO IMHO IMHO) the performance of
>pre-written parts alone isn't enough to qualify them as being great.... I would
>need to listen to their non-pre-written stuff to make that overall judgement.
But you assumed (or implied in your first post) that ALL the parts
Carol played on those hundreds of hit records were "pre-written" -
they weren't!!
But even if they had been "pre-written", she put life and energy into
them. Most of the "pre-written" stuff was written specifically for
Carol Kaye to be the player on the session, because other players
couldn't pull it off. it was not unusual to spec the players for the
parts back then.
>Does anyone want to explain to me how this is so very misinformed an opinion
>and worthy of ridicule? Oh, I know... misinformed means you don't agree....
It was misinformed because you implied in your first post that ALL the
parts Carol played on those hundreds of hit records were
"pre-written", and that her "style" was never called upon, except to
play the written charts, note for note.
Brian Rost
In article <19990102180457...@ng60.aol.com>, phish...@aol.com
wrote:
>I think not. I never heard her do anything more than 12 bar blues-type
>motions. I think she's getting pioneer status because of quanity and not
>quality. And anyone who plays guitar and then picks up a bass by necessity
>is
>not truly a bassist at heart.
Well, that's some of the best bullshit I've seen in this thread so far <grin>
Brian
"The older you live the less you're dead"
PhishyBass
studio workers, we just can't get along no matter what.
PhishyBass
>The idea that to be creative you have to compose as well as perform is
>pure bullshit.
Um not compose but at least write your own parts or change others around. How
many writers would be praised for copying "War and Peace"
MikeyJake
>But you assumed (or implied in your first post) that ALL the parts
>Carol played on those hundreds of hit records were "pre-written" -
>they weren't!!
>It was misinformed because you implied in your first post that ALL the
>parts Carol played on those hundreds of hit records were
>"pre-written", and that her "style" was never called upon, except to
>play the written charts, note for note.
>
>Harvey Gerst
Harvey -
I don't know how you got that much meaning out of my (literally) one sentence
response, but I certainly didn't mean to say or imply or even hint that all of
Carol's parts were written by someone else.... I just thought that the Brian
Wilson parts were a bad qualifier of greatness because they don't show *one* of
the key components of what I think is required to be great.
I'll be the first to admit that I don't know much about her playing (I
literally have not one clue about what percent of her parts were
"pre-written"), but even before I got yelled at (by you) I was looking her up
on the web to find some more of her stuff. Thats why I'm on this newsgroup...
to learn.
Either way, I really didn't appreciate your "response"... even if I was a
complete idiot, insults are really uncalled for, and allowing them just allows
this newsgroup to sink where alt.guitar has gone in the last few months.
If this was your apology, I accept, and I'm sorry I wasn't more clear about my
statement (I guess we all have to be really careful when hundreds of people
read these things), but lets get off this point already.
MikeyJake
Just the ones who have good penmanship...
;-)
Harvey Gerst
>
>>But you assumed (or implied in your first post) that ALL the parts
>>Carol played on those hundreds of hit records were "pre-written" -
>>they weren't!!
>[SNIP]
>>It was misinformed because you implied in your first post that ALL the
>>parts Carol played on those hundreds of hit records were
>>"pre-written", and that her "style" was never called upon, except to
>>play the written charts, note for note.
>>
>>Harvey Gerst
>
>Harvey -
>
>I don't know how you got that much meaning out of my (literally) one sentence
>response, but I certainly didn't mean to say or imply or even hint that all of
>Carol's parts were written by someone else.... I just thought that the Brian
>Wilson parts were a bad qualifier of greatness because they don't show *one* of
>the key components of what I think is required to be great.
Brian is a "good" bass player; he isn't a great bass player, but he
hears how everything is supposed to fit together. That's why he used
Carol on a lot of session. Even though I wasn't at any of those
sessions, I'd be willing to bet that every note Carol played there
didn't come straight off the page.
>I'll be the first to admit that I don't know much about her playing (I
>literally have not one clue about what percent of her parts were
>"pre-written"), but even before I got yelled at (by you) I was looking her up
>on the web to find some more of her stuff. Thats why I'm on this newsgroup...
>to learn.
I didn't yell, I just tried to point out to you that you may not know
enough about Carol or what she's done to understand her importance to
the electric bass.
>Either way, I really didn't appreciate your "response"... even if I was a
>complete idiot, insults are really uncalled for, and allowing them just allows
>this newsgroup to sink where alt.guitar has gone in the last few months.
The only insult was using your own tag line against you, and I am
sorry about that. I tend to respond in kind to anything I get involved
in on the net. I tend to answer short, broad, sweeping statements with
my own short, broad, sweeping statements. Hopefully, I try to help
more than I try to criticize.
>If this was your apology, I accept, and I'm sorry I wasn't more clear about my
>statement (I guess we all have to be really careful when hundreds of people
>read these things), but lets get off this point already.
Yes, had you been clearer, or more complete, I would have responded
quite differently. I read it as "Big deal, she played the notes
somebody put in front of her". Carol deserves much more than that one
line dismissal for all the years of great music she's been involved
in.
Sorry, but some of old farts remember these people personally, respect
them, and won't stand by while somebody puts them down without knowing
them.
Some people are truly inovators and set the stage for what came next:
Les Paul, Leo Fender, Django Reinhardt, Jimi Hendrix, Paul Bigsby,
Albert King, Robert Johnson, Jim Marshall, Jaco Pastorus, Buddy Holly,
Eddie Van Halen, Brian Wilson, Roger McGuinn, Phil Spector; the list
is very long, but be assured of one thing, Carol Kaye's name is on
that list.
ply...@as.net
phish...@aol.com (PhishyBass) wrote:
> >
> >The idea that to be creative you have to compose as well as perform is
> >pure bullshit.
>
> Um not compose but at least write your own parts or change others around.
Which is precisely why Carol (and her cohorts)were hired so often. Much has
been said about her ability to create a catchy bass hook on demand when given
a rough sketch of the song about to be recorded.
--
Pat Lyman
ply...@as.net
phish...@aol.com (PhishyBass) wrote:
> Well it all boils down to the rift between performing\composing musicians and
> studio workers, we just can't get along no matter what.
>
WHERE do you come up with this?
The big names that travel in relative luxury still love to tour, but many
working stiffs, especially as they age, and the miles begin to wear on them,
wish they could trade places with the hired guns in the studio who recorded
the lines they now have to play live.
For every Larry Carlton, or Stanley Clarke, or Lee Sklar who can now choose
when to tour and when to do studio work, there are countless others who wish
they honed their shoot-from-the-hip creative chops. The type of creative
chops that keep the A-list studio players working.
PhishyBass
>Well, that's some of the best bullshit I've seen in this thread so far <grin>
>
Well I'm sorry for trying to diminish some of the stereotypes about bass
players and bring us up to where we belong, that being the spotlight of course.
Garre...@cv.hp.com
"Get Up And Get Your Grandma Out-A Hear!"
"Do It!"
"She's Worth A Duece!"
Garret