What do actual guitar and bass relief profiles look like? (Plek)
RichL
operation of the Plek, which is basically a computer-assisted automated
fingerboard setup machine. There are only 15 of these Pleks in
operation in the US, many of them by major manufacturers, but one of
them is owned by Phil Jacoby (Philtone) in Baltimore, who is the tech
that I regularly use. I've seen this machine in action personally; it's
been used on two of my guitars, and will be also on a third that's
currently in Phil's shop undergoing major surgery.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PG4BOLlKOb4
Parts of the video pertain to AGB's thread on neck relief profiles on
guitars and basses, so if you're interested in that issue you might want
to look at the video, because among other things the Plek can measure
relief all along the neck with a high degree of precision.
Pay particular attention to the graphs of relief measured by the Plek
which occur at 2:56 and 3:08 in the video. The latter case shows an
actual measured relief profile in comparison with a "target" profile
that shows the luthier's and Plek machine's idealization of what the
relief should look like.
I don't know about you folks, but I'd say that "an arc of a circle" is a
pretty good *first approximation* to what these guys consider an ideal
relief profile!
p.s....I haven't had my bass "Plek'd" but one of the times I was in
Phil's shop he was using the Plek to work on a bass, and I got to see
the Plek work on my own guitars in gory detail. It's a fascinating
instrument!
js
It's an impressive piece of engineering, and it's probably excellent for
mass production, NEW instruments...but setting up a guitar by hand just
isn't all that hard. You don't need gauges or computers or anything to do
it.
"RichL" <rple...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:m8udnbbdPdRyNDHV...@supernews.com...
RichL
> Eh...
>
> It's an impressive piece of engineering, and it's probably excellent
> for mass production, NEW instruments...but setting up a guitar by
> hand just isn't all that hard. You don't need gauges or computers or
> anything to do it.
It came in really handy in one case when I had all the frets removed and
the guitar's fretboard, which was really in bad shape reshaped (it went
from a 7" radius to a 10", per my request), then new frets installed.
My tech is definitely well versed in the "old school" ways and uses them
for routine work on my instruments but he says that for jobs like that
particular one of mine the Plek will save him a lot of time (and
therefore money) in the long run. He doesn't use it for routine setups.
BW
Well, I hope the results from the machine are more accurate than the
map that shows Nazareth, PA being east of NYC!
Barry
Rudolf Ziegaus
I once read an article in a German music magazine about the Plek... IIRC
the principle advantage is that the frets are better distributed - the
deviations from the "ideal" frequency are minimized.
Rudi
Benj
> Eh...
>
> It's an impressive piece of engineering, and it's probably excellent for
> mass production, NEW instruments...but setting up a guitar by hand just
> isn't all that hard. You don't need gauges or computers or anything to do
> it.
Yes it is impressive. OF course for a hundred grand it had BETTER be
impressive! The most impressive thing to me is that it includes
cutters to FIX everything. Sure you can put a straight edge on the
neck and find a high fret and file it down, but how much cooler that
the machine just whips out a cutter and and optimizes all the frets
for you!
A poor man's version of this would be nice too. You know a kind of
rail that you have over the neck of the guitar of interest with a
sensor and follower that feeds the neck/fret profile into your PC. No
automated cutters and the like. You just file things by hand, but with
a quick slide down the neck you can check your work with a profile on
the computer screen. Shouldn't cost THAT much to build!
Benj
js
guitars and spend thousands on "handcrafted" guitars would be so dazzled by
a machine to automatically set up said handcrafted guitars.
I suspect this thing just feeds every musicians anal retentiveness when it
comes to "their setup", As in "well since a computer can measure tolerances
to millionths of an inch, it MUST be perfect".
Then they throw this "perfectly set up guitar" the trunk of their car and
beat the shit out of it in some sweaty bar for 4 hours.
Like I said, I think it's great for new mass produced guitars, or shops with
a really high repair volume (and guys who aren't particular about deviating
from the "perfect setup" mean). But I don't think it's a substitute for a
good relationship with your luthier...or learning how to set up guitars
yourself. In that case, some sort of PC sensor tool would be very helpful.
"Benj" <bja...@iwaynet.net> wrote in message
news:f3eb8258-f149-4d9e...@z66g2000hsc.googlegroups.com...
RichL
> Kind of funny that musicians who bitch bout soulless mass produced CNC
> guitars and spend thousands on "handcrafted" guitars would be so
> dazzled by a machine to automatically set up said handcrafted guitars.
Where in the thread or video is any connection between those bitchers
you mention and the Plek machine?
> I suspect this thing just feeds every musicians anal retentiveness
> when it comes to "their setup", As in "well since a computer can
> measure tolerances to millionths of an inch, it MUST be perfect".
It's repeatable, not perfect. In the end, you have to rely on the
judgement of the luthier who's using the Plek.
> Then they throw this "perfectly set up guitar" the trunk of their car
> and beat the shit out of it in some sweaty bar for 4 hours.
Some do, some don't.
> Like I said, I think it's great for new mass produced guitars, or
> shops with a really high repair volume (and guys who aren't
> particular about deviating from the "perfect setup" mean). But I
> don't think it's a substitute for a good relationship with your
> luthier...or learning how to set up guitars yourself. In that case,
> some sort of PC sensor tool would be very helpful.
No one said it's a substitute.
First, you're misunderstanding how it's used. The luthier working on a
specific guitar for a specific customer can (and usually does) override
the defaults. In my case, the luthier in question understands my
playing style and set the Plek accordingly (this after the neck
reshaping and refretting I described earlier). I'm sitting there
watching, and after the Plek does its thing and he tweaks the guitar
accordingly (after a few back and forths), he hands me the guitar and
says "how's this". He watches me play. Then retweak, back on the Plek,
etc.
This guy has worked on many of my instruments and used the Plek on two
of them. He doesn't use it for routine setups. Generally, for more
complicated work I perceive his use of it as a time-saving tool. Despit
e being one of the most sought-after luthiers in the DC-Baltimore area,
this guy's shop is operating on a shoestring (it's exclusively repair,
although he does make his own instruments occasionally) and he's not
about to buy a $100 K instrument just to impress folks.
Here's his description of what he does with the Plek:
http://www.philtone.com/plek.html
"I don't do work that isn't necessary."
Jim Carr
> Kind of funny that musicians who bitch bout soulless mass produced CNC
> guitars and spend thousands on "handcrafted" guitars would be so dazzled by
> a machine to automatically set up said handcrafted guitars.
Are you thinking of another newsgroup? Because I see people here rave
about SX basses. I see them write about how you can find gems in
Fender's Squier line. The general consensus seems to be that the quality
of low to mid-range basses has never been better.
> I suspect this thing just feeds every musicians anal retentiveness when it
> comes to "their setup", As in "well since a computer can measure tolerances
> to millionths of an inch, it MUST be perfect".
>
> Then they throw this "perfectly set up guitar" the trunk of their car and
> beat the shit out of it in some sweaty bar for 4 hours.
Right. It's much better to pay an experienced luthier to do it by hand,
and *then* throw it in the trunk of the car and beat the shit out of it
in some sweaty bar for 4 hours.
BTW, if you paid attention to the video you would have seen that this
machine is just one part of the process. It *still* lands in the hands
of a luthier. It's not like Joe Consumer straps in his guitar, drops a
few tokens in the machine and presses the Start button.
> Like I said, I think it's great for new mass produced guitars, or shops with
> a really high repair volume (and guys who aren't particular about deviating
> from the "perfect setup" mean). But I don't think it's a substitute for a
> good relationship with your luthier...or learning how to set up guitars
> yourself. In that case, some sort of PC sensor tool would be very helpful.
Why do I *need* to learn to set up a guitar myself when I can pay
somebody to do a much better job? Don't get me wrong, if you're into
that, more power to you. Personally, I'll tweak things here and there,
but there's no way in hell I am going to widen nut slots or file frets.
I haven't the tools, eye or hands to do it well. And for an initial set
up, I'll pay the $50. It's been worth it every time.
Now, how that relates to whether my luthier uses such a machine is
beyond me.
Rich Koerner
Just how could the Plek improve the stradivarius violin?
The double bass?
The relationship to the Plek does not equate the above... or the Fender equivalent.
Regards,
Rich Koerner,
Time Electronics.
www.timeelect.com
Specialists in Live Sound FOH Engineering,
Music & Studio Production,
Vintage Instruments, and Tube Amplifiers
RichL
> Just how could the Plek improve the stradivarius violin?
No frets.
> The double bass?
No frets.
> The relationship to the Plek does not equate the above
Never said it did.
> ... or the Fender equivalent.
And what would that be?
Jim Carr
>> ... or the Fender equivalent.
>
> And what would that be?
The Geddy Lee Jazz.
--
Write a wise saying and your name will live forever.
- Anonymous
RichL
> RichL wrote:
>>> ... or the Fender equivalent.
>>
>> And what would that be?
>
> The Geddy Lee Jazz.
It's got frets too. How about the Tony Franklin model?
http://www.fender.com/products/search.php?partno=0190085800
(Tony who? Had to look it up...)
Rich Koerner
Think of only the *suspension points* of the vibrating string.
Then,... think of any relevance that neck straightness could have that would impact string
vibration, *-NOT-* in contact with the vibrating portion of the string.
With respect to this neck straightness _NOT_ in contact with the vibrating portion of the string,...
is there any kind of impact on the string's sound producing vibration portion that the Plek can have
in all these examples I've mentioned above?
So, what is the real or imagined advantage, over past traditions, that the Plek has to offer for the
price of its technology,... if any?
BW
Collectively, we have waaaay too much time on our hands...
Benj
> Then,... think of any relevance that neck straightness could have that would impact string
> vibration, *-NOT-* in contact with the vibrating portion of the string.
>
> With respect to this neck straightness _NOT_ in contact with the vibrating portion of the string,...
> is there any kind of impact on the string's sound producing vibration portion that the Plek can have
> in all these examples I've mentioned above?
Obviously the impact of the portion of the neck NOT in contact with
the vibrating string would be related to something on the order of
"headroom". In other words, how hard can you pluck a string before it
buzzes. That is related to the "clearance" if you will to the rest of
the frets and neck. The Plek seems like an excellent machine for
optimizing that.
> So, what is the real or imagined advantage, over past traditions, that the Plek has to offer for the
> price of its technology,... if any?
I really don't think the Plek machine does anything new that a luthier
and a set of files and other hand tools can't do as well. The Plek
only does it easier and quicker. The plek in a few quick passes gets
a complete profile of the neck and frets. Not just a straight edge
down the center, but edges and even fret/neck curvature in two
dimensions as well. And then instead of taking a day to carefully file
frets etc. into an exact curvature, the Plek has cutters that simply
whips it all into shape in a single pass.
So like this computer in front of me, it doesn't mean I'm doing
anything I wasn't doing before I got it. It's just that now I can do
it a lot faster and with much less effort. Just compare the old type-
setting to make a nice printed page with your laser printer. Both make
a nice looking page. Some may even say the type-set page looks better.
But the amount of time and effort to set a page of type, is the thing
that makes the cost of the laser printer and computer worth the
expense.
js
your custom setup on a 100K machine instead of using $100 worth of
handtools, so be it. I really don't think it makes it any "easier", at least
from what I see on the video.
If he's got the volume to do enough setups to pay for that thing, more power
to him.
As far as my other observation: In the video, they show guys playing lots of
expensive "custom shop" guitars - not to mention the fact that bass players
as a group tend to obsesses about "handcrafted" instruments. It just seems
odd that they would all be "oohing and ahhing" over what is basically a
computer controlled milling machine.
Again, I'm not saying I don't like it. Quite the opposite. I'd LOVE it if a
student brought me a Squier Affinity bass that was ready out of the box -
that didn't need 2 hours of tweaking and a shim.
I guess what bothers me is that it's yet another thing - like amp
simulators, neck/body woods, P vs J basses, strings, etc - for
guitarists/bassists to obsesses about instead of actually a) playing their
instrument b) learning about/how to do it themselves so they can better
gauge it's relationship to their own playing.
Or, to quote my favorite Zen koan:
A young monk spends 20 years in meditation and practice so that he may learn
to walk on water. Once perfected, he intends to amaze his teacher with this
feat, and thus attain enlightenment.
When he's ready, he brings the teacher to the edge of the river. Suddenly,
he runs 1/2mi across the river and back on the surface of the water, with
perfect form.
He says, "Well master, what do you think?'
The old master replies "I take the ferry. It only costs a nickel."
Ba-dum.
"RichL" <rple...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:3eudndKNzp7cUTDV...@supernews.com...
RichL
> Well, you pretty much reiterated what I said. If your guy wants to
> tweak your custom setup on a 100K machine instead of using $100 worth
> of handtools, so be it. I really don't think it makes it any
> "easier", at least from what I see on the video.
>
> If he's got the volume to do enough setups to pay for that thing,
> more power to him.
You seem to be adamant about doing battle with this straw man.
What part of "he doesn't use it to do routine setups" is so difficult
for you to grasp?
The BorgMan
news:48AE7847...@timeelect.com:
> So, what is the real or imagined advantage, over past traditions, that
> the Plek has to offer for the price of its technology,... if any?
Speed and repeatability. Same as every other CNC machining system in the
world.
--
Aaron