Aluminum Neck Basses.....is Adjustment possible?
Tom Ginkel
beautiful and we were made for each other.
Problem: The neck has a "belly" and higher notes fret out. I can raise the
strings to ridiculous heights, I guess, but I'd really rather get the belly
out of the neck and straighten it out, thus lowering the action.
Does anyone know if this can be done, or if there are service guys qualified
to bend solid aluminum?
It sure sounds good!
Tom
ebassist dot com
Hm. Not sure. My DMZ5000 is straight. Maybe use really heavy gauge
strings and tune it up two full steps for a few weeks, and see if that
fixes the problem?
Otherwise,
[image:
http://4.bp.blogspot.com/_sW65ilskOC8/SnMBxGyyC5I/AAAAAAAAZAs/yZ36xTCjC0U/s400/ThorsHammer.jpg]
--
Ace of Bass
Derek Tearne
> I recently purchased a very sweet 1979-or-so Kramer DMZ-6000B bass. It's
> beautiful and we were made for each other.
>
> Problem: The neck has a "belly" and higher notes fret out. I can raise the
> strings to ridiculous heights, I guess, but I'd really rather get the belly
> out of the neck and straighten it out, thus lowering the action.
I'm not sure what you mean this. A 'belly' would imply to me that the
frets in the middle of the neck were raised. That would mean the
*lower* notes are impossible to play without a really high action.
> Does anyone know if this can be done, or if there are service guys qualified
> to bend solid aluminum?
Have you contacted Kramer? And are Kramer neck solid aluminium, I
remember them as having wood filled gaps in the neck. If anyone is
qualified to bend the necks they would know - assuming that bending is
the correct approach.
I'd strongly suggest you talk to the best local luthier first before
proceeding.
---Derek
--
Derek Tearne - de...@url.co.nz
Vitamin S: improvisation from New Zealand http://www.vitamin-s.co.nz/
d'Groove: 12 piece party/covers band http://www.dGroove.co.nz/
Tom Ginkel
away from the strings. I had a Steinberger that was similar and wound up
bending it in a vise. That actually worked, but could just as well have
destroyed it!
I will, indeed, contact Kramer. I was unaware they still existed as a
"real" company. Thought they just imported Asian stuff.
"Derek Tearne" <de...@url.co.nz> wrote in message
news:1jrm07k.1gnf8ul1si0irlN%de...@url.co.nz...
*e#c
Sell it for scrap aluminum.
Derek Tearne
> Thanks for the response. I guess I wasn't very clear. The neck is bowed
> away from the strings. I had a Steinberger that was similar and wound up
> bending it in a vise. That actually worked, but could just as well have
> destroyed it!
There is supposed to be a small amount of bow like this in the neck -
can you hold down the strings at the first and around 17th frets and
tell us the amount of gap at the middle of the neck?
From what you describe, ie. the higher notes not playing properly, it
sounds like your problem is mainly at the higher end of the neck. I had
a problem like this on the bass I converted to an 8 string and fixed it
by dressing the frets.
--- Derek
Tom Ginkel
inch in the middle. Too much!
I'm going to try the lightest strings I can handle.
"Derek Tearne" <de...@url.co.nz> wrote in message
news:1jrmnx0.bzs7hp6yxi2fN%de...@url.co.nz...
eadg
news:c6qdnQl5IpX_r0vR...@mchsi.com...
I used a DMZ 4001 for a good spell during the early 80s. I
remember it fondly, the Ebonol fong/board and T section
forged aluminium neck was the closest thing to Alembic-type
tone IIRC. I had no problems with intonation (the big
argument at the time, regarding temperature differences
affecting the neck) and a single set of passive DiMarzio
pick-ups just about lit it up as a bass for me, they're good
basses!
As for the neck 'belly', 30 years of string tension is bound
to pull the (un-adjustable) neck out of shape. If it were me
I'd consider some 'gradual' self adjustments utilizing a vice
type workmate and some carefully thought out 'wedges' to
tease the relief you need back into the neck. A bit at a time
though - I can't afford lawsuits ;)
--
SR
Tim
> Yeah, the bow, when the first and last fret are held down, is about 3/64
> inch in the middle. Too much!
>
> I'm going to try the lightest strings I can handle.
>
> "Derek Tearne" <de...@url.co.nz> wrote in message
>
> news:1jrmnx0.bzs7hp6yxi2fN%de...@url.co.nz...
>
>
> >> Thanks for the response. I guess I wasn't very clear. The neck is bowed
> >> away from the strings. I had a Steinberger that was similar and wound up
> >> bending it in a vise. That actually worked, but could just as well have
> >> destroyed it!
>
> > There is supposed to be a small amount of bow like this in the neck -
> > can you hold down the strings at the first and around 17th frets and
> > tell us the amount of gap at the middle of the neck?
>
> > From what you describe, ie. the higher notes not playing properly, it
> > sounds like your problem is mainly at the higher end of the neck. I had
> > a problem like this on the bass I converted to an 8 string and fixed it
> > by dressing the frets.
>
> > --- Derek
>
> > --
> > Derek Tearne - de...@url.co.nz
> > d'Groove: 12 piece party/covers bandhttp://www.dGroove.co.nz/
Here;s a bit about their construction.
Gary Rosen
> Yeah, the bow, when the first and last fret are held down, is about 3/64
> inch in the middle. Too much!
The recommended bow for Fender basses is .014", just under 1/64 in.
- Gary Rosen
SheaNC
a badly bowed neck (it was an 8-string). I know yours is bowing in the
other direction, but the same idea. Anyway, I tried contacting Kramer
and they wouldn't respond. It was very disappointing. That was pre-
internet, though, so maybe you could get a response now.
If I had another one and needed the neck straightened out, I'd either
check out some luthiers who would dig the challenge, or maybe a
machinist shop or something where they know about bending the metal.
Good luck!
Tim
> inch in the middle. Too much!
>
> I'm going to try the lightest strings I can handle.
>
> "Derek Tearne" <de...@url.co.nz> wrote in message
>
> news:1jrmnx0.bzs7hp6yxi2fN%de...@url.co.nz...
>
>
> >> Thanks for the response. I guess I wasn't very clear. The neck is bowed
> >> away from the strings. I had a Steinberger that was similar and wound up
> >> bending it in a vise. That actually worked, but could just as well have
> >> destroyed it!
>
> > There is supposed to be a small amount of bow like this in the neck -
> > can you hold down the strings at the first and around 17th frets and
> > tell us the amount of gap at the middle of the neck?
>
> > From what you describe, ie. the higher notes not playing properly, it
> > sounds like your problem is mainly at the higher end of the neck. I had
> > a problem like this on the bass I converted to an 8 string and fixed it
> > by dressing the frets.
>
> > --- Derek
>
> > --
> > Derek Tearne - de...@url.co.nz
> > d'Groove: 12 piece party/covers bandhttp://www.dGroove.co.nz/
I obviously haven't seen it andnot saying it can't be it's rather
difficult for me to understand that you have a bad alumi-neck. I dont'
seee how you could warp one unless you ran over it with a car ets.
I have a 450-B and a DMZ 4000 and the necks are very playable on both
of them.
I wonder if you actually have a bowed neck problem, or an ebonol
fretboard problem? I suppose it's possible that the baord could be
warped for some reason.
This has me interested, I'll call my favorite luthier who has had more
than 30 years in stringed instrument building and repair tomorrow and
see what I can find out.
Tim
I wonder what this site means when it mentions: "
The Ebonol fretboard contained large Phil Petillo designed "center-
touch" frets, "
"center-touch frets?"
Golem
Don't bother contacting Kramer. The lights ain't on
and nobody lives there. Yes the name exists but it's
just a name, lost in the aether.
Make sure the FB isn't simply lifting off at the ends.
The FB is glued on IIRC, and has a thin veneer of
aluminum of it's own, so it's a metal to metal bond.
For a gradual steady force, I've used various length
of 2x4 lumber, enormous amounts of bungee cord,
and rescued wooden necks, which have stayed in
proper shape for several years [and counting], but
I've never tried aluminum. If you do, you're really not
trying to put a new "set" into that T-section casting
that is the main body of the neck. It's a casting ! ! !
However, the casting is light enuf to flex a bit, and
the wooden "quarter round" pieces and the FB are
held in place by adhesives. So, you've got a metal,
wood, and composite laminated neck, and if you
can get the adhesives to shift a bit thru pressure
and time, you may be able to reshape that bow.
With a wooden neck, you only hafta get it into an
approximate degree of relief, somewhere in the
middle range of the truss rod, so you can finalize
it via normal use of the truss rod. With a Kramer
neck, even if you do get it to move in the desired
direction, you hafta bring the process to an exact
result .... no final tweaking via a truss rod. Ouch !
------------------------
I had a number of Kramers, 30", 34" and even a
30" 8-string. They had proper relief, and stayed
that way. I never wanted for lack of any truss rod.
You could put very light or very heavy strings on
them and nothing changed, so I imagine you've
really got your work cut out for you ! I think heat
might be important. The main structure is not a
piece of wood, so modest heat isn't going to
send it all twisty, but heat might allow the glue
joints to get moving. I would think the phenolic
phingerboard is more at risk from heat than
the wooden quarter sections.
Most Kramers have no opaque finish on the
back of the neck. If you study the glue joint all
the way around the wooden sections, you can
notice that it's not really wood "hard-glued" to
metal, but a gap remains between the wood
and metal, which is then filled with what must
be a "moving" adhesive filler. This is the way
they accomodated the different behaviors of
the two materials as they react differently to
changes in temperature and humidity.
---------------------------
Work patiently ....... and rostsa ruck 2 ya. My
guess is that if there's a real Kramer surgeon
out there, he's built a super accurate jig and
clamps the neck in there, brings the heat up
gradually, applies the magic amount of heat,
and cools it all back down still in the jig. That
guess describes the task before you. I'm not
actually assuming that there's enuf demand
for this work to prod someone into building
the jig, etc etc.
Also IIRC, what looks like just 2 neck bolts is
just holding a cover in place and the real bolts
are under that cover .... reminds me of a funny
tale involving a Peugot. If you're not already
LOL at it before I tell it, then you wouldn't get
the humour when it's told .... so I'll let it slide :-)
`
Tom Ginkel
It's actually a bow in the aluminum. It can easily be seen sighting along
the ebonol/aluminum seam.
It also doesn't seem too far-fetched to me. Aluminum is a malleable metal
which, when bent, does not return very well. I can imagine that 30 years of
tension from a heavy set of strings could produce a small bow.
"Tim" <tsch...@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:86662b4d-efe1-48f6...@s11g2000prs.googlegroups.com...
Tom Ginkel
"eadg" <don't...@it.com> wrote in message
news:4cd73ac1$0$10761$c3e8da3$efbd...@news.astraweb.com...
Tim
> Thank you. I'd appreciate it.
>
> It's actually a bow in the aluminum. It can easily be seen sighting along
> the ebonol/aluminum seam.
>
> It also doesn't seem too far-fetched to me. Aluminum is a malleable metal
> which, when bent, does not return very well. I can imagine that 30 years of
> tension from a heavy set of strings could produce a small bow.
>
OK, so i called Carl Pedigo who is the design Luthier for Lakland in
Chicago. The man has over 30 yrs of building high quality stringed
instruments, and he's never worked on one but knows of the problem.
His solution would be to take off the neck and block it from heel to
nut, get some hard wood to cushion the force,, and start clamping, or
pressing, especially putting extra pressure on the problem area, give
it time and it may pull out of it.
That's about all I can tell you.... so far.
Tim
>
> news:4cd73ac1$0$10761$c3e8da3$efbd...@news.astraweb.com...
>
> > "Tom Ginkel" <tgin...@mchsi.com> wrote in message
> >news:c6qdnQl5IpX_r0vR...@mchsi.com...
> >>I recently purchased a very sweet 1979-or-so Kramer DMZ-6000B bass. It's
> >>beautiful and we were made for each other.
>
> >> Problem: The neck has a "belly" and higher notes fret out. I can raise
> >> the strings to ridiculous heights, I guess, but I'd really rather get the
> >> belly out of the neck and straighten it out, thus lowering the action.
>
> >> Does anyone know if this can be done, or if there are service guys
> >> qualified to bend solid aluminum?
>
> >> It sure sounds good!
>
> >> Tom
>
> > I used a DMZ 4001 for a good spell during the early 80s. I remember it
> > fondly, the Ebonol fong/board and T section forged aluminium neck was the
> > closest thing to Alembic-type tone IIRC. I had no problems with intonation
> > (the big argument at the time, regarding temperature differences affecting
> > the neck) and a single set of passive DiMarzio pick-ups just about lit it
> > up as a bass for me, they're good basses!
> > As for the neck 'belly', 30 years of string tension is bound to pull the
> > (un-adjustable) neck out of shape. If it were me I'd consider some
> > 'gradual' self adjustments utilizing a vice type workmate and some
> > carefully thought out 'wedges' to tease the relief you need back into the
> > neck. A bit at a time though - I can't afford lawsuits ;)
>
> > --
> > SR
Yes, EADG's idea is similar to what Carl told me.
Hope all works out well. But remember the words a wise old mechanic
tole me;
"You can't tear up junk!"
the_cat
Just FYI aluminum metal usually doesn't bend ( like steel ) -it will
flex a bit but return to original position or---- it snaps.... e
eadg
"the_cat" <esha...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:d616def1-eb26-4ad8...@o29g2000vbi.googlegroups.com...
=========
Aluminium bends perfectly well, as able as steel, just
easier. The Kramer neck is a cast T section I believe, with a
slight deformation induced by tension over time that could
certainly be straightened by engineering methods given the
time and expense.
Without that luxury it's either experimenting with clamps and
wedges or, now that I come to think about it, 4 or 5
judiciously postioned *fine saw blade cuts down the web of
the T section (once you've removed the wooden inserts),
bending the neck back to close the gaps and re-welding the
cuts back together together, preferably in the direction away
from the fingerboard which should encourage even more bias in
the direction you require, bias you could then influence by
work hardening with a hammer and block.
Be brave, go for it!
--
SR
Pt
> "the_cat" <esham...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
I had one of those aluminim neck Kramer's long ago and it was a great
bass.
I am an electrician and often I have to install big pipe (conduit).
Usually the big stuff that is 3 or 4 inches in diameter has to be bent
with a hydrallic/electric bender.
And usually the pipe is aluminum.
There is no problem bending it.
It bends smoothly and uniformly.
Using wedges and saws certainly is not the answer to repairing your
neck.
Take it to a place that does heavy metal work.
I'm sure they can straighten it out for you.
Pt
eadg
"Pt" <pea...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:b8381525-7e46-4cbe...@k14g2000pre.googlegroups.com...
Pt
============
Sorry Pt, I have lots of experience working with metal, sheet
and otherwise, to quite fine tolerances. With all due
respect, using a pipe bender on cable trunking does not a
whole story tell - using sawcuts to segmentally relieve the
bias is perfectly feaseable for adjusting a T-section
profile, as is directional welding and stress relief by
hammering the resulting joint.
I get the impression you can wire a plug but not manufacture
one ;)
--
SR
Pt
It just seems to be a complicated procedure to do what should be a
simple job.
But often what I think will be a simple job is far from simple.
Pt
Tom Ginkel
check" procedure with clamps and blocks. Ain't gonna do no sawing!
"Pt" <pea...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:b6c932f6-73b6-49fe...@k13g2000vbq.googlegroups.com...
eadg
Pt
=================
That's the nail on the head, and one I often trip over too,
mainly doing diy around the house...
--
SR
eadg
potentially the easiest route to solving your problem.
Some pros and cons of the bending and sawing methods to
straighten a short-ish length of varying thickness cast
aluminium T section (imho):
Bending: Aluminium is a soft and malleable metal usually,
cast being at the top end of brittleness in property so more
likely to fracture/distort if overloaded. There would a fair
chance of the neck twisting without proper support of the
whole length of neck receiving an equal load of deformation.
IANAE but unless the pressure is evenly distributed over the
length of the bend you could make things worse. If you choose
this route you need to apply even pressure at equal distances
along the length of the neck, not at every fret, using at
best a hydraulic press or a fly press minimum, and some soft
faced formers set about 3" apart on the neck side and one
centered top former. Mark the neck at 2" intervals, adjust
the load to add some pressure (bit at a time) and press each
mark along the neck, check with straight edge, continue a bit
at a time untilyou see a difference.
Sawing: Use a fine blade hacksaw cut a series of spaced cuts
3/4s of the depth of the web, I'm thinking in the order of 5
or 6 cuts over about 20" of the worst of the curve (you need
to judge this yourself) and measure the distances carefully.
Once the cuts are done bend the neck until the cuts close up
and (you need a freind with a suitable welder for this next
step) tack weld the cuts together. The heat of the weld may
well induce the neck to over-bend but by hammering the welds
on a steel block you will be able to release this pressure
and tease the neck straight again.
Your best option is to strip the inlays out and take it to a
metal fabrication company with the right equipment and ask if
they're up for a challenge...
good luck anyways
--
SR
"Tom Ginkel" <tgi...@mchsi.com> wrote in message
news:kr6dnSMvxbi9vn3R...@mchsi.com...
Derek Tearne
> It's not as drastic as you think using saw cuts, and is
> potentially the easiest route to solving your problem.
Good grief. It is, absolutely, as drastic, desperate and foolhardy as
it sounds.
Although the relief mentioned earlier sounded huge - it's really tiny in
relation to the amount of bending over the length of a neck.
To be able to make hacksaw cuts fine enough to make this saw cut option
viable you would need an unbelievably thin hacksaw blade.
To get an even back bend by this method would require very accurate
placement of these tiny cuts.
Welding aluminium requires some series equipment and expertise.
To even start on this approach you need to somehow remove the *epoxied
in with the intention of never being removed* wooden strips from the
back of the neck.
It might be a viable method if you had a light industrial workshop, a
very experienced and specialist machinist, and several necks to
experiment on - but I suspect even such a shop would trip a the first
hurdle - getting the inlays out without ruining them and/or the neck.
Suggesting this as an option for repair of one neck is nothing short of
irresponsible.
I think it has to be the craziest piece of ostensibly helpful advice
I've ever seen on usenet.
--- Derek
--
Derek Tearne - de...@url.co.nz
Vitamin S: improvisation from New Zealand http://www.vitamin-s.co.nz/
Golem
Yowza, some heavy metal working gojng on here.
And, it will never work. There is NO final trim after
you reshape the neck .... no truss road to adjust.
OK. Now here's something major, but not drastic,
which WILL work, and employs the existing skills
of the lutherie bidniz :
Peel off or grind off the FB. Replace with ebony,
to preserve that "Metal Kramer" voice. To attach
the new FB do not use a brittle glue, cuz there's
some differential motion: temperature moves the
aluminum rather quickly, but humidity moves the
ebony relatively slowly. You need a "moveable"
adhesive. You don't hafta be Northrup to find it. I
recall such stuff for appliances, weatherstripping,
etc, but I don't recall brand names [GE Silicone?]
Anywho, the final trim is done by the luthier, when
he finishes shaping the FB after it's attached. This
will cost a few hundred dollars, it WILL work, and
you'll have the only ebony FB'ed, aluminum neck
Kramer on your block.
Personally, even tho I really dig them, having had
a few, if it were mine I'd junk it before I'd pay $400
to fix it .. .. regardless of condition, features, etc.
Too many times I've spent too much on specialty
projects ..... which turned out fine .. .. only to "fall
out of love" with them later. But if $400 is OK by
your budget, go the FB route and if you enjoy the
result for a while, it's money well spent.
`
eadg
> eadg <don't...@it.com> wrote:
>
>> It's not as drastic as you think using saw cuts, and is
>> potentially the easiest route to solving your problem.
>
> Good grief. It is, absolutely, as drastic, desperate and
> foolhardy as
> it sounds.
>
> Although the relief mentioned earlier sounded huge - it's
> really tiny in
> relation to the amount of bending over the length of a
> neck.
I know that.
> To be able to make hacksaw cuts fine enough to make this
> saw cut option
> viable you would need an unbelievably thin hacksaw blade.
No you would'nt.
> To get an even back bend by this method would require very
> accurate
> placement of these tiny cuts.
Accuracy to a tolerance of 1.5 mm is more than adequate.
We're not talking feeler guages here.
>
> Welding aluminium requires some series equipment and
> expertise.
I do believe I said that. Presuming you meant 'serious', a
shop bought MIG set would sufficewfor this application - it
only needs tack welding.
> To even start on this approach you need to somehow remove
> the *epoxied
> in with the intention of never being removed* wooden strips
> from the
> back of the neck.
Wooden inlays are not my area of expertise but I imagine new
inlays could be made to fit without too much trouble,
probably less trouble than removing the old ones. Ultimately,
there's no point in a guitar neck with too much
(unadjustable) relief, whether the inlays are made from maple
or hand carved Macassar ebony, it's a piece of junk as a
bass.
>
> It might be a viable method if you had a light industrial
> workshop,
I said that too.
> a very experienced and specialist machinist, and several
> necks to
> experiment on - but I suspect even such a shop would trip a
> the first
> hurdle - getting the inlays out without ruining them and/or
> the neck.
Seperating wood from metal is easily done. The bottom line is
returning the neck to something approaching straight or
better than negative relief.
>
> Suggesting this as an option for repair of one neck is
> nothing short of
> irresponsible.
I take it you have zilch experience working with metal.
You know about work hardening and the expansion of various
metals?
>
> I think it has to be the craziest piece of ostensibly
> helpful advice
> I've ever seen on usenet.
>
> --- Derek
And your knowledge of working with alumnium T section (or any
other kind of aluminium) is?
--
SR
Derek Tearne
> Accuracy to a tolerance of 1.5 mm is more than adequate.
> We're not talking feeler guages here.
Say what? The error we're trying to *correct* is smaller than that. A
quick back of the envelope calculation assuming a fairly ordinary
hacksaw blade suggests that the saw cuts you describe will put about
twice as much *back bow* in the neck as it currently has relief.
> > Welding aluminium requires some series equipment and
> > expertise.
>
> I do believe I said that. Presuming you meant 'serious', a
> shop bought MIG set would sufficewfor this application - it
> only needs tack welding.
Have you ever repaired anything even remotely like this yourself?
Welding aluminium is not as simple as going into a shop and buying a MIG
welder. This repair 'only needs tack welding', you know this how?
Like I said, how many aluminium necks have you repaired?
As you should already know, welding aluminium is not beginner level
welding - even 'tack' welding.
Check this out.
http://www.lincolnelectric.com/knowledge/articles/content/alum.asp
Note particularly the bit that says "Even for those experienced in
welding steels, welding aluminum alloys can present quite a challenge".
And for goodness sake, although you start out your post with "It's not
as drastic as you thing using saw cuts" but then say "The heat of the
weld may well induce the neck to over-bend but by hammering the welds
on a steel block you will be able to release this pressure and tease the
neck straight again."
In what way is this not drastic?
Everything you describe requires metalworking skill of a level above the
'friend with a mig welder' level of expertise.
> Wooden inlays are not my area of expertise but I imagine new
> inlays could be made to fit without too much trouble,
> probably less trouble than removing the old ones.
I've done enough similar things to know that whatever method you employ
will almost certainly destroy the inlays. Which means you're going to
have to source some nice wood, shape the back of the inlays perfectly to
fit into the 'T' sections, then shape the 'front' of the inlays to a
nice profile for the 'back' of the neck. Then get a nice finish on it.
> Ultimately,
> there's no point in a guitar neck with too much
> (unadjustable) relief, whether the inlays are made from maple
> or hand carved Macassar ebony, it's a piece of junk as a
> bass.
Well, that's true. Which is why even graphite necked basses often have
truss rods. The concept was truly flawed to begin with.
Trying to repair with saw cuts and welds and hammering into shape is
even more tragically flawed.
> > Suggesting this as an option for repair of one neck is
> > nothing short of irresponsible.
>
> I take it you have zilch experience working with metal.
> You know about work hardening and the expansion of various
> metals?
Oh yes, which is why I'm kind of flummoxed to see anyone who claims to
have any experience with metals - or any materials really - suggesting
this method of repair. High school metalwork shop is enough experience
to realise your method is crazy. And I've built a few things since
then.
> And your knowledge of working with alumnium T section (or any
> other kind of aluminium) is?
I've cast items out of aluminium, heck I even made a steam engine out of
aluminium (and other materials) once. Got some T section under the
house somewhere - although that's probably steel.
So, tell me, how many aluminium guitar necks have you repaired?
How many wooden guitar necks have you done anything more serious than
adjust the truss rod too?
Anyway, let's assume for the sake of argument, that your suggestion is
the correct and proper way to repair this neck.
Even if we assume that your approach is the only possible way to repair
the neck - it is a lot of work with a lot of potential for things to go
wrong. That is not "not as drastic as you think" that's "a drastic and
desperate non-trivial repair".
eadg
> eadg <don't...@it.com> wrote:
>
>> Accuracy to a tolerance of 1.5 mm is more than adequate.
>> We're not talking feeler guages here.
>
> Say what? The error we're trying to *correct* is smaller
> than that.
Smaller in what way...you have dimensions?
> A quick back of the envelope calculation assuming a fairly
> ordinary
> hacksaw blade suggests that the saw cuts you describe will
> put about
> twice as much *back bow* in the neck as it currently has
> relief.
There's a big difference between a 'back of an envelope'
summation and what happens in real engineering Derek, I
earned a living from it for a long time.
You've cast aluminium, I've cast lead fish weights. The
difference is I can apply precise adjustments with nothing
more than a hammer, to a tolerance of .1 of a mm, to a
pre-determined dimension.
>
>> > Welding aluminium requires some series equipment and
>> > expertise.
>>
>> I do believe I said that. Presuming you meant 'serious', a
>> shop bought MIG set would sufficewfor this application -
>> it
>> only needs tack welding.
>
> Have you ever repaired anything even remotely like this
> yourself?
Aluminium (or steel if you can't tell the difference) T
section is what it is. There is a way to manipulate either
type to comply to an engineering drawing by means of welding,
sawing and by no means last, hammering.
> Welding aluminium is not as simple as going into a shop and
> buying a MIG
> welder. This repair 'only needs tack welding', you know
> this how?
30+ years of sheetmetalwork. From hand made copper kettles to
hand made stainless steel sinks, glass furnace cooling
systems, RN Type 23 Destroyer weapon system rack units, RAF
custom built (in aluminium, lol) rack units, segmentally
shaped to form curves, for the air traffic control tower at a
main UK military air base.
Trust me.
> Like I said, how many aluminium necks have you repaired?
None. How many Kramer basses have you owned/played?
> As you should already know, welding aluminium is not
> beginner level
> welding - even 'tack' welding.
Excuse my language, but don't tell your dad how to fuck.
> And for goodness sake, although you start out your post
> with "It's not
> as drastic as you thing using saw cuts" but then say "The
> heat of the
> weld may well induce the neck to over-bend but by hammering
> the welds
> on a steel block you will be able to release this pressure
> and tease the
> neck straight again."
>
> In what way is this not drastic?
In a way that someone ignorant of actually working with metal
would not understand.
> Everything you describe requires metalworking skill of a
> level above the
> 'friend with a mig welder' level of expertise.
Unless I've missed it I don't recall specifying what skills
are needed, and from your comments, you would be the last
person to offer advice on the subject.
> Trying to repair with saw cuts and welds and hammering into
> shape is
> even more tragically flawed.
You could not be more wrong. Feel free to quote me on that.
--
SR
Derek Tearne
> "Derek Tearne" <de...@url.co.nz> wrote in message
> news:1js1xi7.1csfiee1g1uawoN%de...@url.co.nz...
> > eadg <don't...@it.com> wrote:
> >
> >> Accuracy to a tolerance of 1.5 mm is more than adequate.
> >> We're not talking feeler guages here.
> >
> > Say what? The error we're trying to *correct* is smaller
> > than that.
>
> Smaller in what way...you have dimensions?
Oh, yes, the dimensions were given in almost the first post.
But let's get this straight, you, the great engineer, are suggesting
tolerances and depth, number and separation of saw cuts *without*
actually knowing the amount of curve we're trying to repair.
That's not engineering.
Now perhaps I can see where this all started. If the neck was bent like
a banana then I agree that sawing cuts in the back of the 'T' section,
bending and re-welding is arguably the reasonable approach.
Anyway, you don't need the dimension of the problem to know that a
tolerance of 1.5 mm is unnacceptable - you just need to have adjusted
the relief on a few basses.
You say 'back of the envelope' is not good engineering, I say that it's
a good place to start.
If a proposed solution fails BOTE don't take it further and certainly
don't suggest to people who aren't capable of such calculations that it
might be a reasonable (and not too drastic) approach.
Your approach fails BOTE, and fails acceptable tolerance for relief.
I don't care how many copper kettles you've made.
the_cat
> eadg <don'...@it.com> wrote:
> > "Derek Tearne" <de...@url.co.nz> wrote in message
> >news:1js1xi7.1csfiee1g1uawoN%de...@url.co.nz...
> d'Groove: 12 piece party/covers bandhttp://www.dGroove.co.nz/
The only Reasonable approach is to try different gauge strings, and
find what works for the neck.. Then decide if you can live with
selected gauge - If not forget it.. e
eadg
> eadg <don't...@it.com> wrote:
>
>> "Derek Tearne" <de...@url.co.nz> wrote in message
>> news:1js1xi7.1csfiee1g1uawoN%de...@url.co.nz...
>> > eadg <don't...@it.com> wrote:
>> >
>> >> Accuracy to a tolerance of 1.5 mm is more than
>> >> adequate.
>> >> We're not talking feeler guages here.
>> >
>> > Say what? The error we're trying to *correct* is
>> > smaller
>> > than that.
>>
>> Smaller in what way...you have dimensions?
>
> Oh, yes, the dimensions were given in almost the first
> post.
No, they were not. You mentioned lots of very fine width
cuts, no dimensions afaics. I'm still waiting for your math,
BOTE or otherwise.
Are you someone else? 'derek tearne' usually displays some
modicum of common sense.
--
SR
Derek Tearne
> Derek Tearne" <de...@url.co.nz> wrote in message
> news:1js3vwj.1s70itvy8igotN%de...@url.co.nz...
> > eadg <don't...@it.com> wrote:
> >
> >> "Derek Tearne" <de...@url.co.nz> wrote in message
> >> news:1js1xi7.1csfiee1g1uawoN%de...@url.co.nz...
> >> > eadg <don't...@it.com> wrote:
> >> >
> >> >> Accuracy to a tolerance of 1.5 mm is more than
> >> >> adequate.
> >> >> We're not talking feeler guages here.
> >> >
> >> > Say what? The error we're trying to *correct* is
> >> > smaller
> >> > than that.
> >>
> >> Smaller in what way...you have dimensions?
> >
> > Oh, yes, the dimensions were given in almost the first
> > post.
>
> No, they were not.
The amount of relief was mentioned, in some arcane fraction of inches.
At the time several of us noted that it was just over three times the
recommended Fender bass neck relief of .35mm (or .014"), so just over a
1mm, and gasped with horror.
Regardless, if recommended neck relief is .35mm, repairs to a
*tolerance* of 1.5mm is not the level of accuracy I would consider
appropriate for any of my instruments. Especially when this is being
done to the back of the neck.
>You mentioned lots of very fine width cuts, no dimensions afaics.
You mentioned lots of cuts. I know that most of my hacksaw blades are
in the vicinity of .3mm thick.
> I'm still waiting for your math, BOTE or otherwise.
If we were sitting in the pub I'd take the nearest piece of A4 paper,
probably a lunch menu, cut a strip about 2cm wide from the edge, cut a
little slot in the side of this to give a gap of approximately .3 mm,
then bend the paper to close said gap. I would then line the paper up
with the edge of the bar, and measure the difference from true with beer
mats.
This would take approximately six beer mats.
I would then point out that a sheet of A4 is approximately half the
length of a bass neck, so 12 beer mats of relief. I may or may not add
beer mats for each of the cuts you mentioned depending on how tolerant
the bar staff were - after all I've already destroyed their menu.
An exchange of beer would then take place.
Or possibly I would attempt to demostrate welding using a drinking straw
and a cigarette lighter and get thrown out of the pub.
eadg
> eadg <don't...@it.com> wrote:
>
>> Derek Tearne" <de...@url.co.nz> wrote in message
>> news:1js3vwj.1s70itvy8igotN%de...@url.co.nz...
>> > eadg <don't...@it.com> wrote:
>> >
>> >> "Derek Tearne" <de...@url.co.nz> wrote in message
>> >> news:1js1xi7.1csfiee1g1uawoN%de...@url.co.nz...
>> >> > eadg <don't...@it.com> wrote:
>> >
>> > Oh, yes, the dimensions were given in almost the first
>> > post.
>>
>> No, they were not.
>
> The amount of relief was mentioned, in some arcane fraction
> of inches.
>
> At the time several of us noted that it was just over three
> times the
> recommended Fender bass neck relief of .35mm (or .014"), so
> just over a
> 1mm, and gasped with horror.
Why do you confuse recommended relief on a 34" bass, Fender
or otherwise, with what I explained in dealing with a warped
piece of T section?
Fender may well advise on their own products but it's
selective...dead spots are denied the same way Warwick claim
a Thumb 5 string has no neck dive - it has, in a big way, I
have one. The only comfortable solution was extend the strap
button for use standing up. I had a mate who had a lathe turn
me one. Looks naff but works
> Regardless, if recommended neck relief is .35mm, repairs to
> a
> *tolerance* of 1.5mm is not the level of accuracy I would
> consider
> appropriate for any of my instruments. Especially when
> this is being
> done to the back of the neck.
You have it wrong Derek, again showing your lack of practical
engineering. With regard to segmental cuts on a piece of T
section, I trust you have accurate figures for the expansion
of cold metal when work hardened to a pre-determined load?
The reality is I am confident I could sort out the warp issue
on his Kramer, more confident than a luthier (and I know a
few, Bud Le Compte included).
And quit calling me 'the great engineer', I'd knock you out
should you say it to my face, patronising tit.
--
SR
Derek Tearne
> Why do you confuse recommended relief on a 34" bass, Fender
> or otherwise, with what I explained in dealing with a warped
> piece of T section?
> Fender may well advise on their own products but it's
Firstly, are you suggesting that Fender recommends neck relief as
something related to dead spots?
Or that neck relief varies by any kind of appreciable amount between
different basses? Yes, it does vary, but not by a huge amount.
Furthermore neck relief, and the requirements thereof, are related to
pysical properties of *the string* and playing style, not the neck. It
doesn't matter what the neck is made of.
And I'm not confusing anything here. You mentioned a 'tolerance' of
1.5mm. Please explain how this can be appropriate where the difference
between unworkably low and uncomfortable to play is less than half that?
Neck relief is absolutely 'feeler guage' territory -
> You have it wrong Derek, again showing your lack of practical
> engineering. With regard to segmental cuts on a piece of T
> section, I trust you have accurate figures for the expansion
> of cold metal when work hardened to a pre-determined load?
I don't see why that is even relevant in this case. And I'm afraid all
those particular text books were left behind a long time a go (materials
science was a part of my first degree). I could google, but I can't be
bothered. The material doesn't really matter, it's simple geometry that
is the problem here, it wouldn't matter whether we tried this method on
wood, plastic, steel or carbon fibre.
Did you try the example I suggested involving A4 paper and beer mats?
And for sure *you* don't have accurate figures either, unless you worked
at kramer and have some additional information regarding the alloy used
or whether any intentional work hardening took place during manufacture.
And, you're talking about tolerances of 1.5 mm - again at that level
you're pretty clearly not considering those factors - at least not
particularly accurately.
> The reality is I am confident I could sort out the warp issue
> on his Kramer, more confident than a luthier (and I know a
> few, Bud Le Compte included).
Now, in this situation I'd ask the local luthier what he'd recommend.
But I don't really want to bother him for a trivial usenet argument.
So the approach I'd suggest, which is based on a suggestion the
aforementioned luthier made with respect to a different neck,
would be as follows
Remove the fingerboard. Put the neck under some gentle reverse tension
(there are various simple ways of doing this involving, for example
steel cable, a tensioner, and a nice bit of rubber or two at the back of
the neck), then mill the front of the neck flat. Release the tension
and we now have a neck, that hasn't been heated, sawn, or in any way
buggered about with, with a smaller amount of relief than it had.
Glue the fingerboard back on and viola there you are.
Getting the fingerboard off might be a bit of a problem, of course,
seeing as it is epoxied on.
Alternatively, pull the frets. Proceed as above, only make the neck
flat using very fine wet'n'dry paper on the back of a long flat piece of
metal - a large metal spirit level would work briliantly for this job,
put in new frets, dress and play.
So, as it happens I am also confident that, with a little help from Mr
Glyn and some of my brother's tools, I'd be able to fix this guys neck
warp issue. And my approach is a heck of a lot less drastic.
> And quit calling me 'the great engineer', I'd knock you out
> should you say it to my face, patronising tit.
Well, I'm sorry you feel that way. It's a good job I deleted the
really patronising comments.
Derek Tearne
> And quit calling me 'the great engineer', I'd knock you out
> should you say it to my face, patronising tit.
This was bugging me, not the fact that you called me a patronising tit,
which is quite amusing, but the way you are bent out of shape at me
apparenty continually calling you 'the great engineer'
I said that once, please note, once.
I've been back and checked.
Just once.
Derek Tearne
> Remove the fingerboard. Put the neck under some gentle reverse tension
> (there are various simple ways of doing this involving, for example
> steel cable, a tensioner, and a nice bit of rubber or two at the back of
> the neck), then mill the front of the neck flat. Release the tension
> and we now have a neck, that hasn't been heated, sawn, or in any way
> buggered about with, with a smaller amount of relief than it had.
A little experimentation with some bits of metal under the house
suggests that, depending on how much spring back that particular
aluminium has, this method might not work. A test for this would be to
pull really hard back on the headstock and see if the neck moves, and if
so how much does it move back afterwards.
Anyway, a conversation with my brother, the engineer, brought up several
possible methods of correction, involving industrial presses or even car
jacks. He reckoned he'd probably be able to straighten such a neck
using the equipment in his workshop at home.
Sawing and welding was rejected out of hand.
Golem
Spring-back ? Kramer necks do not budge.
To counter neck dive, I was using the headstock to
anchor the 'front' end of the strap on a Kramer. No
problems at all. Later I stoopidly tried the same
thing on a wooden-necked bass. The action, relief
and intonation would just leap all over from just my
normal playing motions [I do NOT leap around].
The Kramer neck was immune to these motions,
which tug at the headsock via the strap. Also, in
my experience, Kramers do not react to string
guage/tension or odd tuning. In practrical terms,
they do not move, at least not when fully intact
with inlays and FB all glued in place.
Reshaping the FB thaz on it would be fast work,
cuz Ebonal composite sands down really fast,
but you may have shim the neck joint to allow
for the loss of material. I still think a new wooden
FB is the more practical idea. Keep it in mind
that after you shape this thing, you live with the
relief you carved into it. There isn't any adjuster.
Referetting an Ebanol FB is kinda sketchy, too.
Not impossible, but you might wind up needing
a whole new FB anyway.
Ned Steinberger is a frikkin genius [hint - hint].
`
the_cat
Well shit can it then, Or use it for SLIDE !! e
Golem
>
> Well shit can it then, Or use it for SLIDE !!
>
Slide ! Brilliant ! Might as well pull the frets
for that duty, and not worry about buzz, or
even about filling the slots.
If you wanna get drastic, narrow down the
waistline so you can bow it. Uprights have
kinda huge action anyway. Slide and arco
would play equally well on the same bass.
`
eadg
> eadg <don't...@it.com> wrote:
>
>> And quit calling me 'the great engineer', I'd knock you
>> out
>> should you say it to my face, patronising tit.
>
> This was bugging me, not the fact that you called me a
> patronising tit,
> which is quite amusing,
Truth is stranger than fiction.
> but the way you are bent out of shape at me
> apparenty continually calling you 'the great engineer'
"apparently continually" noted.
> I said that once, please note, once.
I'm not arguing. Now go back and point out where I'm
'"continually" arguing the toss, smart arse. The 'great
engineer' comment is offensive. Take it back, shut the fuck
up about practical engineering (I don't give a fuck about
your brother either, get him on here to reply on his own
behalf or stfu) about which you have *no* experience.
>
> I've been back and checked.
A man of your calibre would surely have done that before
laying himself open to ridicule.
>
> Just once.
Please quote where I'm arguing this point. You said it once,
I replied once. Please explain how 'once' equates to
"apparently continually", does it involve measuring beer
mats?
--
SR
eadg
> Derek Tearne <de...@url.co.nz> wrote:
> A little experimentation with some bits of metal under the
> house
> suggests that, depending on how much spring back that
> particular
> aluminium has, this method might not work.
And your house has a calibration certificate for "that
particular aluminium"?
You'll be telling me he wears a bib and brace and plays banjo
next.
> A test for this would be to...
What are your qualifications to make such an assertion?
> pull really hard back on the headstock and see if the neck
> moves, and if
> so how much does it move back afterwards.
Ha ha! Ground Control to Major Derek - have you ever tried to
bend a section of T Section aluminium, over your knee?
My Godfather, Arthur Scotson lives in the South Island, he's
90 something and still playing golf, with the help of an
electric golf cart admittedly, but, coming from the
industrial heartland of the UK, could still turn up on your
doorstep and slap you (and your brother...who he?) on my
behalf.
> Anyway, a conversation with my brother, the engineer,
> brought up several
> possible methods of correction, involving industrial
> presses or even car
> jacks. He reckoned he'd probably be able to straighten
> such a neck
> using the equipment in his workshop at home.
Do I detect a hint of retraction here?
> Sawing and welding was rejected out of hand.
>
> --- Derek
I may well use that quote as a sig, Mr Great Engineer.
--
SR
Derek Tearne
> "Derek Tearne" <de...@url.co.nz> wrote in message
> news:1js7pte.1x6w4p0rw8ud8N%de...@url.co.nz...
> > but the way you are bent out of shape at me
> > apparenty continually calling you 'the great engineer'
>
> "apparently continually" noted.
>
> > I said that once, please note, once.
>
> I'm not arguing.
OK. So, there's not argument. I said this thing once. With no
implication that I'd ever say it again.
> > I've been back and checked.
>
> A man of your calibre would surely have done that before
> laying himself open to ridicule.
OK. And exactly how much of this have *you* checked? None. You keep
saying "Have you a calibration certificate for that aluminium" as though
it would make a difference.
If you had, or if you'd even done the little experiment I suggested with
paper and beer mats you'd know your method is out of whack
dimensionally.
> Please quote where I'm arguing this point. You said it once,
> I replied once. Please explain how 'once' equates to
> "apparently continually", does it involve measuring beer
> mats?
I said it once. Three posts later you said "And quit calling me the
great engineer, it's patronising".
That's weird. It's like you were hearing an echo or something.
And as for beer mats. They are about 1mm thick.
You were talking about tolerances of 1.5mm
A beer mat is a perfectly suitable measure for that level of accuracy.
A level of accuracy which anyone who's adjusted a neck would realise is
not, really, accurate enough.
Derek Tearne
> And your house has a calibration certificate for "that
> particular aluminium"?
> You'll be telling me he wears a bib and brace and plays banjo
> next.
No. And do you have such a certificate for a Kramer neck? No, you
don't. You're spouting jargon, out of context,
> > pull really hard back on the headstock and see if the neck
> > moves, and if
> > so how much does it move back afterwards.
>
> Ha ha! Ground Control to Major Derek - have you ever tried to
> bend a section of T Section aluminium, over your knee?
Over my knee? Actually no. But then I didn't suggest that now.
> My Godfather, Arthur Scotson lives in the South Island, he's
> 90 something and still playing golf, with the help of an
> electric golf cart admittedly, but, coming from the
> industrial heartland of the UK, could still turn up on your
> doorstep and slap you (and your brother...who he?) on my
> behalf.
Send him round. Seeing as I, and my brother, also come from the
industrial heartland of the UK, we'll likely have a good old reminisce.
> > Anyway, a conversation with my brother, the engineer,
> > brought up several possible methods of correction,
> > involving industrial presses or even car jacks. He
> > reckoned he'd probably be able to straighten
> > such a neck using the equipment in his workshop at home.
>
> Do I detect a hint of retraction here?
I'm not sure where you get that from. My opinion is that sawing and
welding the neck is not appropriate. My brothers opinion concurs - and
I didn't even mention wooden inserts.
The conversation went a bit like this [technical stuff about gas
turbines] and how would you go about repairing a bend in an aluminium
neck? [stuff about all the bent bit of aluminium they got at lucas and
had to straighten it first before putting it in spinning things] "Would
you think sawing the back of the T section and bending would work" ...
his first comment was 'aluminium is difficult to weld', his second was
'heating will introduce more bending' and third was 'cutting is going to
make it bend in the wrong places'.
> > Sawing and welding was rejected out of hand.
>
> I may well use that quote as a sig, Mr Great Engineer.
Well, that's actually a slight misrepresentation on my part. Sawing and
welding was rejected because it is an unsound approach for this task.
Tom Ginkel
It still plays a hell of a lot easier than an upright bass!
"the_cat" <esha...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:69c5b468-1ef2-41e2...@j9g2000vbr.googlegroups.com...
eadg
> eadg <don't...@it.com> wrote:
>
>> And your house has a calibration certificate for "that
>> particular aluminium"?
>> You'll be telling me he wears a bib and brace and plays
>> banjo
>> next.
>
> No. And do you have such a certificate for a Kramer neck?
> No, you
> don't. You're spouting jargon, out of context,
Hmm, measurement and calibration are contextually opposite,
how so?
>> > pull really hard back on the headstock and see if the
>> > neck
>> > moves, and if
>> > so how much does it move back afterwards.
>>
>> Ha ha! Ground Control to Major Derek - have you ever tried
>> to
>> bend a section of T Section aluminium, over your knee?
>
> Over my knee? Actually no. But then I didn't suggest that
> now.
Over what then? How to bend and how much to bend? These
points are critical to whether the neck is repairable or not,
please don't babble on about technical bullshite to cloud the
issue, be specific. If you know so much about creating an
accurate curvature over a given length of cast aluminium t
section say so and describe your method with a little detail
and without drifting away from the point.
>> > Anyway, a conversation with my brother, the engineer,
>> > brought up several possible methods of correction,
>> > involving industrial presses or even car jacks. He
>> > reckoned he'd probably be able to straighten
>> > such a neck using the equipment in his workshop at home.
Your brother seems to know a lot more than you then. My very
first comments in this thread gave this very advice.
Have a long conversation with your brother, ask for his
advice on why you feel threatened in some way by using a
perfectly valid (and controlled) method of metal deformation
using a car jack, or even <shudder> an industrial press.
After that let it slip that not only can you write on a
beermat, they are all 1mm thick and impervious to
moisture/temperature contamination.
>>
>> Do I detect a hint of retraction here?
>
> I'm not sure where you get that from. My opinion is that
> sawing and
> welding the neck is not appropriate.
I think it's obvious how wrong your opinion is, how obviously
apparent your lack of practical experience in metalwork
shows, hell, you even think a luthier could sort out this
problem.
> The conversation went a bit like this [technical stuff
> about gas
> turbines] and how would you go about repairing a bend in an
> aluminium
> neck? [stuff about all the bent bit of aluminium they got
> at lucas and
> had to straighten it first before putting it in spinning
> things] "Would
> you think sawing the back of the T section and bending
> would work" ...
I've met plenty other 'engineers' like yourself, they too
referred to a T section as an 'aluminium neck' (it's still a
piece of aluminium T section), no wonder your brother is
slightly confused.
> his first comment was 'aluminium is difficult to weld', his
> second was
> 'heating will introduce more bending'
He's wrong in the first instance, right in the second,
although in this instance he fails to appreciate the amount
of heat distortion is adjustable, by way of a big fucking
hammer. Show him this comment if you think I'm bullshitting.
Turbine blades are titanium btw, and they saw and weld them
too sometimes.
> and third was 'cutting is going to
> make it bend in the wrong places'.
Put your brother on, I'll argue the toss over this aspect
with him if he wants to.
>> > Sawing and welding was rejected out of hand.
> My brothers opinion concurs - and
> I didn't even mention wooden inserts.
Au Contraire, you said:
"To even start on this approach you need to somehow remove
the *epoxied
in with the intention of never being removed* wooden strips
from the
back of the neck."
I used one of these basses for about 8 years, it kicked
bottom. If I had chosen to stay with it I'm certain that any
issues with the neck I could have sorted it myself given the
will.
>> I may well use that quote as a sig, Mr Great Engineer.
>
> Well, that's actually a slight misrepresentation on my
> part. Sawing and
> welding was rejected because it is an unsound approach for
> this task.
>
> --- Derek
And your qualification for making such an assertion?
--
SR
Derek Tearne
> Over what then? How to bend and how much to bend? These
> points are critical to whether the neck is repairable or not,
> please don't babble on about technical bullshite to cloud the
> issue, be specific. If you know so much about creating an
> accurate curvature over a given length of cast aluminium t
> section say so and describe your method with a little detail
> and without drifting away from the point.
Yes, indeed, the amount of bend *is* critical to this repair, as that
is, after all, what we're trying to fix.
Without going into compound curves, because it's not necessary, let us
simplify things and measure the angle of a straight edge placed on the
first couple of frets against the last couple. Just to give us an easy
idea of the amount of bend we're trying to fix.
A neck with a decent amount of relief will give a simple angle of about
0.5 degrees. The problem neck as described gives an angle of ~1.2
degrees - I haven't actually seen the neck so this is, obviously, an
estimate.
So, our goal for a sound repair methodology is to reduce the angle by
something like .5 degrees. Going beyond that, to flat or even a
backbow, would be unfortunate.
First, this is what you described. "Sawing: Use a fine blade hacksaw cut
a series of spaced cuts 3/4s of the depth of the web, I'm thinking in
the order of 5 or 6 cuts over about 20" of the worst of the curve (you
need to judge this yourself) and measure the distances carefully.
Once the cuts are done bend the neck until the cuts close up"
OK.
How much additional unwanted back curvature do you think will be
introduced into the instrument neck by your proposed method of repair?
If you take a piece of material (that will bend) of the thickness of a
bass guitar neck (~15mm), and make a cut with a normal hacksaw 3/4s of
'the depth of the web'. After bending you will end up with an angle of
~4 degrees.
This is simple geometry, and remains true regardless of the material
involved. I've checked my sums using an actual hacksaw blade and
something slightly more bendable over my knee than 15mm thick aluminium.
'5 or 6' such cuts will give an angle between 20 and 24 degrees.
Now, if we assume your hacksaw blades are half the thickness of the
thinnest ones I have under the house that's still >ten degrees of bend
on a repair of a half degree problem.
Which is the crux of why I've got such an issue with your proposed
repair methodology. It is going to introduce a new problem an order of
magnitude bigger than the original one.
This remains true whether the neck is made of wood, aluminium, carbon
fibre or a composite of all three.
Obviously I have other issues with your repair method, based on my own
experience of repairing things, and making things, out of wood and
metal, and plastic, and studying materials science at a university in
britains industrial heartland.
But even if welding aluminium was as easy as soldering, and epoxy bonded
materials were as easy to separate as soggy beer mats, and metals
miraculously curved evenly along their length even with cuts sawn into
them, it simply doesn't stack up.
eadg
> eadg <don't...@it.com> wrote:
>> Over what then? How to bend and how much to bend? These
>> points are critical to whether the neck is repairable or
>> not,
>> please don't babble on about technical bullshite to cloud
>> the
>> issue, be specific. If you know so much about creating an
>> accurate curvature over a given length of cast aluminium t
>> section say so and describe your method with a little
>> detail
>> and without drifting away from the point.
>
> Yes, indeed, the amount of bend *is* critical to this
> repair, as that
> is, after all, what we're trying to fix.
[snipped waffle]
> Which is the crux of why I've got such an issue with your
> proposed
> repair methodology. It is going to introduce a new problem
> an order of
> magnitude bigger than the original one.
I suppose I should have expected such ignorance, the minute
you called me 'the great engineer'.
>
> This remains true whether the neck is made of wood,
> aluminium, carbon
> fibre or a composite of all three.
You are wrong. The one thing that uni course on material
science forgot to mention, or did mention but you were off
sick when they said it perhaps, is that a welded butt joint
(which is what a sawcut is in this instance) will expand when
placed on an anvil and hammered (work hardening IIRC). The
brighter ones amongst us are probably latching on to the fact
that this expansion will cancel and even reverse the
direction of distortion.
Put simply, with the use of pretty basic engineering tools
(medium sized hammer, steel planishing block, feeler guages
and straight edge) and a basic TIG welder I could put that
neck right with manipulation far more accurately than a truss
rod can apply.
> Obviously I have other issues with your repair method,
> based on my own
> experience of repairing things, and making things, out of
> wood and
> metal, and plastic, and studying materials science at a
> university in
> britains industrial heartland.
I'd hesitate to call university 'industrial', wherever it's
location and anyway, it seems it's let you down. You'd have
been better coming to secondary modern catholic school like
wot I did.
I earned a living from being a metalworker in light
engineering for 35 years, the last one from making prototypes
for RFI sheilded cabinets to MOD work for the RAF (segmental
computer cabinets, RFI proof for the air traffic control
centre), Army (shock proof vehicle equipment cabinets) and
Navy (Type 23 Destroyer weapons system equipment), all to
close tolerances that had to pass inspection.
I can also weld (steel, ferrous/non ferrous, alloys, cast,
plastic, gas, stick, mig, tig, inversion), solder, braze,
rivet, forge, turn, mill, shape, scrape, etc, etc etc.
> But even if welding aluminium was as easy as soldering,
> --- Derek
There you go again. You would last 5 minutes at the sharp end
of a working engineering business.
--
SR
the_cat
> "Derek Tearne" <de...@url.co.nz> wrote in message
>
> news:1jsbepl.1ka1s5711l8nb9N%de...@url.co.nz...
>
What's your time worth ? And how long do you think this "experiment"
would take?
And in the end be a unplayable P.O.S. costing far more than most any
Bass you could go out and test drive before buying!!! e
Derek Tearne
> > Which is the crux of why I've got such an issue with your
> > proposed repair methodology. It is going to introduce a new
> > problem an order of magnitude bigger than the original one.
>
> I suppose I should have expected such ignorance, the minute
> you called me 'the great engineer'.
What ignorance is this you speak of? It's basic maths.
> > This remains true whether the neck is made of wood,
> > aluminium, carbon fibre or a composite of all three.
>
> You are wrong.
Which part of that geometry is wrong? If you do as you described you
are going to introduce a banana shaped bend with a radius of something
like metre. That's a lot of bending to put in that piece of aluminium.
And it will be stepped like a 50 pence piece.
According to you, you'll be able to counter this by hammering the welds
until they expand enough - they've only got to expand about .6mm - I
don't know exactly how much expansion is possible by this method, but
then you've not supplied anything other than 'it expands if you hit it'.
Let us assume for the sake of argument that all this sawing, pressing,
welding and hammering until it expands enough will eventually get the
neck back into shape without any unwanted dents or surface deformation,
or dings to the frets or gouges in the fingerboard ...
Can you honestly, and with a straight face, say introducing a banana
bend in a neck, and then welding/hammering that back to true is
"potentially the easiest way to solving this problem" or "isn't as
drastic as it sounds"?
eadg
> eadg <don't...@it.com> wrote:
>> > Which is the crux of why I've got such an issue with
>> > your
>> > proposed repair methodology. It is going to introduce a
>> > new
>> > problem an order of magnitude bigger than the original
>> > one.
>>
>> I suppose I should have expected such ignorance, the
>> minute
>> you called me 'the great engineer'.
>
> What ignorance is this you speak of? It's basic maths.
No, it's patronising bollox.
>> > This remains true whether the neck is made of wood,
>> > aluminium, carbon fibre or a composite of all three.
>>
>> You are wrong.
Again, you are wrong. It would be interesting to see a man
such as yourself, skilled as you are, weld a wooden neck. You
don't get it because your experience in metalwork amounts to
fuck all. Ignorance is a correct description of your comments
so far.
> Which part of that geometry is wrong? If you do as you
> described you
> are going to introduce a banana shaped bend with a radius
> of something
> like metre. That's a lot of bending to put in that piece
> of aluminium.
> And it will be stepped like a 50 pence piece.
Ignorance.
> According to you, you'll be able to counter this by
> hammering the welds
> until they expand enough - they've only got to expand about
> .6mm - I
> don't know exactly how much expansion is possible by this
> method
Like I said, ignorant. You don't know how much expansion is
possible, why should anyone trust your judgement?
I have practical experience working with aluminium T section
(and other extrusions), you have none.
You're beginning to look like a fool.
> Let us assume for the sake of argument that all this
> sawing, pressing,
> welding and hammering until it expands enough will
> eventually get the
> neck back into shape without any unwanted dents or surface
> deformation,
> or dings to the frets or gouges in the fingerboard ...
Like I said, ignorant. You go nowhere near the fingerboard.
It's a T section Duh!
> Can you honestly, and with a straight face, say introducing
> a banana
> bend in a neck, and then welding/hammering that back to
> true is
> "potentially the easiest way to solving this problem"
Quote me where I said "potentially the easiest way" in the
context you allude to.
> or "isn't as
> drastic as it sounds"?
Why are welding/planishing suddenly construed as drastic?
Because you deem it so or because you don't have the skill to
perform these functions?
I hope your bass playing is above the smoke and mirrors of
your engineering argument.
--
SR
Derek Tearne
> "Derek Tearne" <de...@url.co.nz> wrote in message
> news:1jsd5a2.yarfmrruc5w1N%de...@url.co.nz...
> > What ignorance is this you speak of? It's basic maths.
>
> No, it's patronising bollox
That is not an answer.
Here. http://www.flickr.com/photos/drtearne/5200244462/
This is the angle of bend you get if you make a cut with a normal
hacksaw in a piece of material and bend until the gap is closed. Which
is what you proposed.
Now, I've used some custom-wood here, but it doesn't matter, a gap is a
gap, a hacksaw is a hacksaw. I could cut through some other bits of
material to demonstrate this but there really is no point.
You proposed 5 or 6 of these cuts.
You can either counter this by saying bollox, which still won't be an
answer, or maybe cut come bits of metal 1.5cm thick just over half way
through, bend until the gap is closed, and show us the results.
> > Can you honestly, and with a straight face, say introducing
> > a banana bend in a neck, and then welding/hammering that
> > back to true is "potentially the easiest way to solving this
> > problem"
>
> Quote me where I said "potentially the easiest way" in the
> context you allude to.
Here, from your post of the november 15th - the very first sentence.
"It's not as drastic as you think using saw cuts, and is
potentially the easiest route to solving your problem."
If you'd have said "If it won't bend easily using other methods, one
possible repair would be to saw some cuts in the back of the T to make
it easier to bend the neck, bend until there's a little back bow then
weld the gaps" I wouldn't have taken issue.
But to present this as the easiest route to solving this problem...
eadg
> eadg <don't...@it.com> wrote:
>
>> "Derek Tearne" <de...@url.co.nz> wrote in message
>> news:1jsd5a2.yarfmrruc5w1N%de...@url.co.nz...
>
>> > What ignorance is this you speak of? It's basic maths.
>>
>> No, it's patronising bollox
>
> That is not an answer.
Please stop taking such liberties, your comments thus far
show you would be the last person to know what is right or
wrong when manipulating a lump of metal.
> Here. http://www.flickr.com/photos/drtearne/5200244462/
Very interesting: a piece of what looks like angle
iron/aluminium with a sawcut to one particular side. Not T
section I note, and also, no tack/stitch welds to the joint
pics, planishing or measurements of any kind.
> This is the angle of bend you get if you make a cut with a
> normal
> hacksaw in a piece of material and bend until the gap is
> closed. Which
> is what you proposed.
I was pretty certain you would refer to the archives when I
mentioned "potentially the easiest way"...
If you look closely at those old posts you will see I
specified (in the t'internet way) with a *, that the cut
should be of the fine variety.
> Now, I've used some custom-wood here, but it doesn't
> matter, a gap is a
> gap, a hacksaw is a hacksaw.
Oh dear, do you wish you could go back in time?
> You proposed 5 or 6 of these cuts.
I stand by that. Quote me at your will.
> You can either counter this by saying bollox, which still
> won't be an
> answer, or maybe cut come bits of metal 1.5cm thick just
> over half way
> through, bend until the gap is closed, and show us the
> results.
Any fool can saw a cut in a piece of metal and bend it. Can
you repair it to be perfectly straight again?
I can.
> If you'd have said "If it won't bend easily using other
> methods, one
> possible repair would be to saw some cuts in the back of
> the T to make
> it easier to bend the neck, bend until there's a little
> back bow then
> weld the gaps" I wouldn't have taken issue.
I'll remember to ask your permission should I dare to post an
opinion on agb.
That's especially bizarre considering you don't know what
you're talking about.
> But to present this as the easiest route to solving this
> problem...
>
> --- Derek
I never did that, but even so, what is your considered
opinion on repairing this neck 'mr great smart arse'.
Step by step (in detail please, method, practice and
measurement).
No picking imaginary holes in what my idea is, just yours
(and your brother's too if you like).
--
SR
Derek Tearne
> Very interesting: a piece of what looks like angle
> iron/aluminium with a sawcut to one particular side. Not T
> section I note, and also, no tack/stitch welds to the joint
> pics, planishing or measurements of any kind.
It doesn't matter. You know it doesn't matter. Make the same cut in any
other material, except perhaps porridge, you'll get the same angle -
just look at it - putting that much of a bend in a guitar neck and then
hammering and welding it flat may well be possible, but it's pretty
clearly a drastic approach!
A cut is a cut, a bend 'til the gap is closed is a bend 'til the gap is
closed.
No, I haven't attempted to weld, or planish the material. It won't
work, as the material is not metal - although interestingly even though
I stated this, you seem to think it is.
I could, I suppose, go out and buy a piece of 'T' section aluminium
similar to the neck, saw it, weld it, planish it back to true, to
demonstrate my point - but I really can't see the point in that.
I believe I could hammer such a piece of metal back to true. I've
hammered far worse bends out of bits of metal, put them back in the car
and driven for many more happy miles.
I would resist very strongly doing that to a guitar neck, even after
taking the fingerboard off. And if I was going to try hammering the
neck true, I wouldn't be doing any sawing and welding first.
> I was pretty certain you would refer to the archives when I
> mentioned "potentially the easiest way"...
> If you look closely at those old posts you will see I
> specified (in the t'internet way) with a *, that the cut
> should be of the fine variety.
Exactly how fine a hacksaw blade are you envisaging?
Where would one obtain such a fine hacksaw blade?
The finest hacksaw blade I could find on-line is .6mm, no finer than the
one I used in the example above. I'm sure you can find a finer one.
The question is, how much finer?
> Any fool can saw a cut in a piece of metal and bend it. Can
> you repair it to be perfectly straight again?
> I can.
Doesn't matter, bending into a banana shape and straightening it back by
heroic measures is not either potentially easy, or anything other than
drastic.
> > But to present this as the easiest route to solving this
> > problem...
> I never did that, but even so, what is your considered
> opinion on repairing this neck 'mr great smart arse'.
Good grief. I've already quoted where you said that, you quoted it
yourself earlier in your post!!!
It's what you said.
Go back and read it.
Derek Tearne
eadg
> eadg <don't...@it.com> wrote:
>
>> Very interesting: a piece of what looks like angle
>> iron/aluminium with a sawcut to one particular side. Not T
>> section I note, and also, no tack/stitch welds to the
>> joint
>> pics, planishing or measurements of any kind.
>
> It doesn't matter. You know it doesn't matter. Make the
> same cut in any
> other material, except perhaps porridge, you'll get the
> same angle -
> just look at it - putting that much of a bend in a guitar
> neck and then
> hammering and welding it flat may well be possible, but
> it's pretty
> clearly a drastic approach!
No it is'nt, it's relatively straight forward.
> A cut is a cut, a bend 'til the gap is closed is a bend
> 'til the gap is
> closed.
Thank you Einstein, and your point is?
> No, I haven't attempted to weld, or planish the material.
> It won't
> work, as the material is not metal - although interestingly
> even though
> I stated this, you seem to think it is.
Without an explanation I can only guess. Why be so vague
anyway, we're clearly discussing a Kramer neck, not a bowl of
porridge.
> I could, I suppose, go out and buy a piece of 'T' section
> aluminium
> similar to the neck, saw it, weld it, planish it back to
> true, to
> demonstrate my point - but I really can't see the point in
> that.
I doubt that very much, your ignorance in these matters tells
me a lot about your capabilities in a workshop.
For instance: your ignorance of the difference between a
piece of extruded aluminium T section and the cast aluminium
fork headed, tapered T section that is the Kramer neck
> I believe I could hammer such a piece of metal back to
> true.
You're full of shit lad.
> I would resist very strongly doing that to a guitar neck,
> even after
> taking the fingerboard off.
Now that is drastic, unless you have a perfect method of
shifting an ebanol neck off a piece of forged aluminium about
your person.
> And if I was going to try hammering the
> neck true, I wouldn't be doing any sawing and welding
> first.
You are un-fucking-believably ignorant.
You have no idea what a Kramer neck looks like, I owned one
for 8 years, circa late 80s.
>> I was pretty certain you would refer to the archives when
>> I
>> mentioned "potentially the easiest way"...
>> If you look closely at those old posts you will see I
>> specified (in the t'internet way) with a *, that the cut
>> should be of the fine variety.
>
> Exactly how fine a hacksaw blade are you envisaging?
>
> Where would one obtain such a fine hacksaw blade?
Junior hacksaw, that's it. A workshop would possibly have a
thinner bandsaw blade but it's irrelevant to the point in
question
> The finest hacksaw blade I could find on-line is .6mm, no
> finer than the
> one I used in the example above.
There really is a problem with your credibilty here if you
are suggesting that cut in your vaguely described 'material'
is 0.6 of a mm wide. No finer?
You're full of shit lad.
> I'm sure you can find a finer one.
> The question is, how much finer?
If needed, which it is'nt in this example, I would suggest a
laser cutter, .3 or .4 ime.
>> Any fool can saw a cut in a piece of metal and bend it.
>> Can
>> you repair it to be perfectly straight again?
>> I can.
>
> Doesn't matter, bending into a banana shape and
> straightening it back by
> heroic measures is not either potentially easy, or anything
> other than
> drastic.
It's not heroic or drastic, just metalwork.
>> > But to present this as the easiest route to solving this
>> > problem...
>
>> I never did that, but even so, what is your considered
>> opinion on repairing this neck 'mr great smart arse'.
>
> Good grief. I've already quoted where you said that, you
> quoted it
> yourself earlier in your post!!!
You could represent NZ for exagerrating if you maintain I
"presented this as the easiest route", I never.
Knowing the bass as I do, coupled with my experience in light
engineering, I'm confident of returning the OPs Kramer to
something close to what it was originally, if not with a CNC
hydraulic press (which is the 'easiest' (and most likely)
method I'd pursue fwiw) then removing the wooden inserts to
expose the 'T' and taking it from there.
Removing the fingerboard is pointless anyway, the cause of
the distortion being the forces acting on the neck from
constant tuned string pressure. Being forged it will be hard
to predict where this pressure will cause the most stress
(the string tension is constant, the section is tapered with
varying mass) so the amount of distortion may be beyond the
scope of a series of calibrated bends.
So what now? Bin the bass?
Whether you like it or not the web, or 'T', of the section
has stretched beyond it's tolerance of measurement.
Ultimately, the only way to relieve that expansion is to
starve it of mass then reinforce in a graduated manner.
Stretching metal is easy, shrinking not so, but then you know
that, don't you Albert?
--
SR
Derek Tearne
It's clear that, until I manage to obtain an actual Kramer neck and
follow your instructions to the letter you'll claim I'm confusing
materials.
I'm not going to do that, for a whole lot of reasons, not least of which
I see no point in damaging even an already bent Kramer neck just to
demonstrate how wrong headed this suggested approach is. Also, when the
neck is turned to junk you would still claim that you could have made
this work. Pointless.
> You could represent NZ for exagerrating if you maintain I
> "presented this as the easiest route", I never.
Go back and read your actual post for comprehension.
This is your *very first* sentence - an exact and unaltered quote.
"It's not as drastic as you think using saw cuts, and is
potentially the easiest route to solving your problem."
In what way am I exagerrating or misrepresenting this statement?
It's what you said.
You went on to describe something that isn't the easiest or least
drastic solution.
The fact that you are now claiming I'm misrepresenting you suggests that
you now realise yourself that it isn't the easiest solution and that
there are other easier less drastic approaches that should have been
suggested first.
eadg
> OK. This is really the last response.
>
> It's clear that, until I manage to obtain an actual Kramer
> neck and
> follow your instructions to the letter you'll claim I'm
> confusing
> materials.
No I won't. I do doubt your claim to be able to carry out a a
repair of this nature. An ordinary piece of extruded T would
suffice, and being an expert you'll know this makes the task
a lot easier than a Kramer neck. Show me some evidence, you
have a camera.
> I'm not going to do that, for a whole lot of reasons, not
> least of which
> I see no point in damaging even an already bent Kramer neck
> just to
> demonstrate how wrong headed this suggested approach is.
Not when you know what you are doing, this is key.
Also, when the
> neck is turned to junk you would still claim that you could
> have made
> this work. Pointless.
If *you were to attempt it it would surely be a piece of
junk, but's that's no surprise given your comments in this
thread.
Any engineer would take issue with your assertion that my
suggestion would not work because, out of pure ignorance, you
are saying it's impossible to get right.
>
>> You could represent NZ for exagerrating if you maintain I
>> "presented this as the easiest route", I never.
>
> Go back and read your actual post for comprehension.
No, you go back, read my posts in the days prior to the post
you take issue with. You will note that my very first reply
in this thread suggests bending as the preferred method of
repair. Other posts prior to you butting in show fair,
detailed responses to the issues of my suggestions to other
posters asked.
>
> This is your *very first* sentence - an exact and unaltered
> quote.
What difference does being the first, 17th or last quote
make?
I stand by that quote you took from my post btw, it's a fact.
Unless you can explain in detail it is'nt?
>
> "It's not as drastic as you think using saw cuts, and is
> potentially the easiest route to solving your problem."
>
> In what way am I exagerrating or misrepresenting this
> statement?
Judicious use of the adjective 'drastic'. It is'nt. In fact,
if anything, it's less drastic than bending if not done
correctly, repairing a bend is a lot more complex than a butt
joint.
> You went on to describe something that isn't the easiest or
> least
> drastic solution.
You're fond of quoting, can you give me a link (or explain in
detail) why that quote is wrong? I'm sure there must be a
website out there somewhere that lists the degrees of
difficulty of practical engineering practice other than just
your word for it.
Your claims are full of holes AFAICS
>
> The fact that you are now claiming I'm misrepresenting you
> suggests that
> you now realise yourself that it isn't the easiest solution
> and that
> there are other easier less drastic approaches that should
> have been
> suggested first.
>
>
> --- Derek
The post you take issue with is a reply to the OP, as a
common courtesy (jocularity abounds when referring to saw
cuts btw), but mainly to pt, who remarked how often it occurs
to all of us how little we understand about something that
looks simple and is taken for granted. Like those copper
kettles of mine you mocked, vital experience I had to call
upon many times, one in particular being a conical mild steel
nozzle, made out of sheet metal, 1.2 mm thick. It was shaped
like a witches hat, 40cm high with a 50mm hole at the top and
40cm diameter bottom that turned outwards and back on to
itself to a specified (and audited) radius (50mm) and
dimension. Tools used: guillotine, welder, grinder, custom
made planishing blocks (by me), and 2 or 3 hammers. Can you
make one? A copper kettle even? Tell me how and I'll have
some faith in your credibility. All you've done so far is
argue the toss over out of context dribble.
Why you chose to jump on my arse is a matter for you, but for
the record, you are wrong on all counts.
--
SR
Derek Tearne
> It was shaped
> like a witches hat, 40cm high with a 50mm hole at the top and
> 40cm diameter bottom that turned outwards
if I was a witches hat
sitting on her head like a paraffin stove
I'd fly away and be a bat
across the air I would rove
Golem
Paraffin = Kerosene ?
`
Derek Tearne
Golem
> Golem <dro...@dot.state.ny.us> wrote:
> > Paraffin = Kerosene ?
>
> Yup.
>
> --- Derek
>
> --
> Derek Tearne - de...@url.co.nz
> d'Groove: 12 piece party/covers bandhttp://www.dGroove.co.nz/
So then what do you call candle wax ? We call that paraffin here.
`
eadg
> OK. This is really the last response.
That sort of sums you up.
--
SR
in...@sydneyguitarsetups.com
tsch...@gmail.com
> A Plek can fix that.
If anything, a person should contact Lakland in Chicago. they have a computerized plek machine and it stays busy a lot of thee time doing custom work.
https://www.lakland.com/
se...@themonkeyhouse.org
tsch...@gmail.com
Jun 17se...@themonkeyhouse.org
This will be interesting. The two I have are pretty good, but if there’s a “Secret” to adjusting aluminum-necks, this might make buying wayward Kramers fun!
tsch...@gmail.com
> I have one I've had for years and the action has gotten higher than I like, with the bridge saddles about as low as they'll go. There are four allen screws at the bass of the neck. When I saw them, my suspicion was that this is some "micor-tilt" adjustment like Fender used to offer. I was checking online for advice about this and people seem to say these necks aren't adjustable. Are you sure? What about these screws at the base of the neck? I'm going to fool with them and see what happens...
Bruce Bennett
i have a Kramer XL8 string bass here with the similar problem which is why i'm now postingin a group ive never posted in..
I worked at Steinberger/Tobias in the Nashville Plant in 1992-94 and I talked with Ned many times. Genius.. maybe not so much,
darn sharp cat Absolutely.
but i can tell you that he solved each problem with the Steinberger's through trial & error, math and a lot of thinking about it.
it takes 80lb of air pressure in a pneumatic cylinder to put frets in ebonol. Ned claimed more would crack it, and less wouldn't properly seat the fret. and pneumatics was the most controllable way to operate the machine to achieve repeatable results.. it worked. funny looking contraption for sure.
his wooden "deflection meter" was pretty funny and rather unscientific to look at, but it worked and was the measure of every guitar, if they tested outside of the working preameters then they got scraped period.
I'm going to take a overbend with heat applied approach to see If I can save this neck, its under bow is currently at 5/64 at standard pitch. @ the 8 fret so pretty darn severe
also this neck absolutely will move when pulling on the headstock, I can pull it bare handed to straight. so yeah these necks WILL move. Of course that might indicate that there is some part of the structure that is no longer bonded as it was when new.. I will be ever watchful as I work on this to see if anything obvious pops up.